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Magnetic Space Launches

chrisd posted more than 12 years ago | from the waiting-for-a-beanstalk dept.

Space 301

DiZNoG writes "This CNN article discusses NASA experimenting with the idea of using Mag-Lev technology to launch payloads into space. Mentioned in the article is that the U.S. Navy is working on the technology for it's aircraft carriers to launch fighters. Unfortunately the NASA project is horribly underfunded ($30,000) for research. Cool technology, let's hope that the Navy research gets us a step closer to not burning all that Oxygen and Hydrogen to get to space...

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TV faster than slashdot? (1)

halo8 (445515) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784082)

weird i just saw this on a discovery documentary like 5 minutes ago... neat

Re:TV faster than slashdot? (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784087)

So you watch boring television then. What do you want? A medal?

Re:TV faster than slashdot? (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784151)

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

3 [goatse.cx]
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Re:TV faster than slashdot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784145)

media likes theming. oh wait, no, that's wrong. media likes stealing other media's ideas.

missing italics tag (0, Offtopic)

tooth (111958) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784083)

left of the "" tag on the end of the article.

Used up in the cost to get the electricity, though (2, Interesting)

iq in binary (305246) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784085)

Although this technology is by far a better way to get payloads into space, all the energy used to create sufficient electricity to do so would make this method of launch just as costly as the previous. Mag/Lev is an excellent suggestion, after we make more breakthroughs in superconductivity and emf it will become a spectacular solution.

Re:Used up in the cost to get the electricity, tho (5, Insightful)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784088)

Well, I don't think the *cost* of energy (in terms of dollars) really is the issue here. It is the amount of onboard fuel which displaces the amount of cargo you can take into orbit. And since fuel has weight, the more fuel you add, the more fuel you need to achieve orbit. So, earth-based electricity vs. vehicle based fuel really would be a plus.

Re:Used up in the cost to get the electricity, tho (4, Informative)

LadyLucky (546115) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784216)

IIRC, the terminal velocity of a rocket is (to a first approximation) the product of the logarithm of the ratios of the total mass (including fuel) and the payload mass, and the exhaust velocity. This means you nead TONS of fuel to boost a small payload, especially given Earth's escape velocity of 11 km/sec.

The advantage here would be that you dont need to burn fuel to make the fuel move. You dont need to add extra weight to get started. Im not an expert, but i assume that the basic idea would be gather speed (not even necessarily vertically to begin with), and then launch it vertically. It needs to be vertical to escape the drag of the atmosphere as quickly as possible.

Re:Used up in the cost to get the electricity, tho (3, Interesting)

King Of Chat (469438) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784323)

I didn't think they launched rockets exactly vertically. To get the orbital speed right, they go off at an angle - possibly after goign straight up for the most dense part of the atmosphere. I suppose for geostationary sattelites they don't need quite the rotation (and they need to go further up). Easier to explain with a picture, but no can do here.

This is why they like to launch from near the equator and always orbit in the same direction as the earth - you get a substantial boost (900 miles an hour according to Monty Python).

Re:Used up in the cost to get the electricity, tho (2, Insightful)

fordboy0 (547958) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784206)

Touche... The amount of coal to be burned to produce the electricity required may (notice I did say may) offset the environmental savings.
Now, if they can use solar energy to fire that baby... That would be the shiznit!

Going to acceleration or height? (3, Interesting)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784086)

I'm wondering how much of the benefits of this is in the acceleration/speed they hope to achieve in a small space, versus the height they want to reach. I'm an idiot on the subject, admittedly (who's an expert, anyhow?), but which is more unrealistic, building an EM rail that reaches near orbit, or trying to accelerate 100s of tons verticaly to reach a high speed? (I'm still going to assume that they'll use rockets to reach orbit, and not 100% rely on the rail for the energy.)

Re:Going to acceleration or height? (3, Interesting)

ender81b (520454) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784100)

In theory they hope to use this to totally replace rocket launches as it would be

A. Safer
- all equipment on ground easy to maintain and in case of a failed launch or problem the rail would still result in a partial launch - meaning the pilot could presumably guide the plane/wahtever to a landing.
- No need to carry volatile chemicals

B. Cheaper since, once agian, everything is on the ground - no need for throwaway boosters, etc Indeed once you pay for the construction all that is left is electricity and maintence.

C. The plan isn't to accelerate them vertically as the G forces would kill a man to obtain earth orbit you have to have a speed of (I think) 25 Km/Sec which would, in a vertical launch scenario of say a 1000 meter tower, result in way over the 9-10 G's a human can survie. Instead they will be launched off of a gradually ascending slope spanning a couple of kilometers.

However, and this is a big iffy, in all honesty this technology will go nowhere without superconducting materials to use in the rail. Without these existing, or any future, non-superconducting material cannot hope to maintain the power output/magnetic field necassary to propel an object to Earth Orbit or Near Earth Orbit (NEO).

Re:Going to acceleration or height? (5, Insightful)

Tsar (536185) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784147)

[O]nce you pay for the construction all that is left is electricity and maintence.

The same could be said for New York City. The devil is in the details, my friend. Folks thought the Shuttle would open up cheap access to space, since we'd get to reuse the orbiters. Ha ha.

[To avoid dangerously high acceleration, manned flights] will be launched off of a gradually ascending slope spanning a couple of kilometers.

Sorry, but that's still way too short. To achieve a minimum orbital velocity in a 2-kilometer run, you'd have to accelerate at a little more than 1500 gees. Splat.

Even with a 100-kilometer ramp, you'd be dealing with an average acceleration greater than 31 gees. It appears that, as far as space projects go, this will only ever be useful as an initial-stage boost, or for boosting raw materials into space for orbital construction projects.

Of course, it would still make a nice high-tech catapult for lobbing massive conventional weapons hundreds of miles, but of course no one in the Pentagon is thinking of THAT possibility...

Re:Going to acceleration or height? (5, Funny)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784268)

  • To achieve a minimum orbital velocity in a 2-kilometer run, you'd have to accelerate at a little more than 1500 gees.

Yup. And for a more manageable 10g, you'd need a 315km run to reach geosynchronous velocity. Of course, you'd also burn to a crisp in the atmosphere ;-)

The advantage of railgun / rocket sled launches is in getting you some of the way up to orbital velocity, but there's still a good long way to go. Basically, you can't reach orbital velocity while still inside the atmosphere, so you have to carry a bunch of fuel up with you whichever way you cut it.

Here's some handy dandy info for those who want to have a play with the numbers and have forgotten their Newtonian stuff:

Geosynchronous orbit is at 42,245m, which requires an orbital velocity of 7869m/s. Gravity is 9.81m/s^2

Distance = half of acceleration times time squared (s = 0.5 * a * t^2) and velocity equals acceleration times time, so time equals velocity divided by acceleration (v = a * t, t = v / a)

If you know the speed that you want and the acceleration that you can tolerate, this gives you:

s = 0.5 * v^2 / a (e.g. for 7869m/s and 98.1m/s^2, s = 0.5 * 7869 * 7869 / 98.1 = 315602m = 315km)

Or, if you know the distance you have and speed that you want, and want to know the acceleration you need:

a = 0.5 * v^2 / s (e.g. for 7869m/s and a 2km run, a = 0.5 * 7869 * 7869 / 2000 = 15480 m/s^2 or about 1578g!)

Re:Going to acceleration or height? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784516)

[O]nce you pay for the construction all that is left is electricity and maintence.

The same could be said for New York City.

Ok, so just chalk up the cost for the war in Afghanistan as "maintainance costs". Oh, and make that "[T]wice you pay for the construction".

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Re:Going to acceleration or height? (-1)

Anonymous Pancake (458864) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784136)

there's a diagram here [warez.com] that describes what you mentioned

Re:Going to acceleration or height? (3, Insightful)

psych031337 (449156) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784313)

Traditional rockets tend to burn up to one quarter of their overall fuel reserves before they lift the first inches off the ground/out the silo.

Maglev might be able to give these devices a good shove before the rockets kick in and might therefore save substantial amounts of fuel (and fuel saved is weight saved, which then saves even more fuel on the way to orbit).

MAJOR NEW FLASH! (-1, Flamebait)

Pakaran2 (138209) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784089)

Slashdot editors discover how to burn oxygen.

Expected future discoveries include playing games under Linux, convincing Katz to write a brief article, and getting rich off their stock options.

Re:MAJOR NEW FLASH! (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784093)

and getting rich off their stock options

Which means only having to perform 7 degrading sex acts a night, instead of 8.

$30,000? (0)

xX_sticky_Xx (526967) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784094)

I doubt they'll get very far with that much money, perhaps not even to the end of the maglev rail.

It's really sad what's happened over the years to the once mighty space program like the US had that was fuelled by imagination, both public and governmental. Now it's run by short-sighted penny pinching bureaucrats.

Re:$30,000? (1)

Sumocide (114549) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784281)

Feel free to give your money to NASA.

Easy Funding method... (1)

AcidDan (150672) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784104)

http://www.dreamworld.com.au/

Just turn the thing into a giant "Tower of Terror" to raise funds ;)

-- Dan =)

Re:Easy Funding method... (0)

TommyBear (317561) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784164)

Yeah but if you have every been to that ride and read the information sign it says something like "When in operation, the Tower of Terror ride uses twice the amount of power that the entire park uses in one day."

Very efficient ;)

BSD? Linux? Whats goin on, guys? (-1, Flamebait)

SquireCD (465008) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784105)

Hey, fellas

I've been using Windows for about 30 years. Someone told me that Linus should be shot because BSD is 31337. Linux is lame, they in my #redhat IRC channel told me. But then, I went to #mandrake linux IRC channel on irc.ecreethax0r.org and they said that BSD was for Windows hating layuhs.

Can anyone shed some light

Maybe MagLev will save us yet! (5, Funny)

Tsar (536185) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784106)

let's hope that the Navy research gets us a step closer to not burning all that Oxygen and Hydrogen to get to space...

Yes, we must reduce emissions of deadly Dihydrogen Monoxide [dhmo.org] ! It's already filling our rivers, streams and oceans, and has been found even in the ice of Antarctica! The time to act is now, people! Before our wells are full of this dangerous chemical!

Re:Maybe MagLev will save us yet! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784122)

OMG! We are all going to die!

Don't you dare contradict me on this one. There's quite a precedent for it. I come from a long line of dead people.

Re:Maybe MagLev will save us yet! (2, Insightful)

CodemonKeygen (515811) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784134)

I think you're missing a very important detail. If the shuttle/ship/whatever doesn't need to carry the fuel necessary to get it into orbit then you've just removed a LOT of added weight. Think of how much weight SRBs add, let alone the liquid fuel tank.
I don't know the exact cost/[pound|kilo] to get something into orbit, however reduced weight means less cost and less energy needed per launch. Seems like a win/win situation to me.

Re:Maybe MagLev will save us yet! (4, Informative)

Tsar (536185) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784188)

I think you're missing a very important detail -- I was making a joke. But let's go ahead and apply this to the shuttle. Here's how far you have to make your acceleration track in order to reach 7,814 m/sec (minimum orbital velocity) at various G-forces:

3112 gees ............ 1.0 km
100 gees ............ 31.1 km
15 gees ............ 207.5 km
8 gees (comfy?) .... 389.0 km

Think about how long you watch a shuttle launch, and that it's accelerating for that entire time. It takes a long, long track to pull this off. Better to build short, fast ones and use them for launching construction materials into orbit.

Re:Maybe MagLev will save us yet! (1)

CodemonKeygen (515811) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784208)

Nah, I got the joke and it was funny.

But getting turned into jello at 3112 gees is funnier thought. Would make one hell of a rollercoaster ride.

Re:Maybe MagLev will save us yet! (2)

jbert (5149) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784353)

Hmm. Too braindead to do the calculation, but do you get a win if you have a circular track? You can go round that, accelerating away and then either let go (wheeee!) or bank off onto a straightening bit.

Anyone care to do some sums on circumference, centripetel (sp?) force (oooh ooh centrigugal/centripetal flame war please) and other interesting numbers?

This idea is not fairly new... (2, Interesting)

AnimeFreak (223792) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784108)

If I remember a while back, I could have sworn I saw some sort of launch system in either a computer animation demonstration or in a game itself.

This idea would be interesting to apply into space as there is very little friction in space to slow things down. Why not make an addon on to the IIS to launch vehicles to Mars or Venus via this launch method? If the track was long enough it could go faster than convention rocketry. And in fact, less fuel would be needed on the vehicle since the mag-lev was the device that launched it.

Re:This idea is not fairly new... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784174)

looking at the url of your site you may have gotten it from "Bots" theat robot fighting anime on toonami, as i rember they used magnetic force to launch the bots.

Re:This idea is not fairly new... (1)

AnimeFreak (223792) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784207)

I live in Canada, I am not lucky enough to get the Cartoon Network due to the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission) "looking out for us."

I think I might have gotten this off YTV, but I am not 100% sure as my memory on this is a bit hazy.

Re:This idea is not fairly new... (2, Funny)

Grayraven (95321) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784184)

Yeah, right. And exactly what would hold the
thing in place? A shitload of rockets?

Re:This idea is not fairly new... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784254)

Why not make an addon on to the IIS to launch vehicles to Mars or Venus via this launch method? Sorry but as much as I am a newbie on this subject there is a problem with a massdriver in space. The laws of newton state: for every force there is an equal counter force. (Action equals minus reaction if my trans is right) so if you launch a ship from the ISS you push the entire ship back into the admosphere(and spacestations are noutrously bad re-entry vehicles) Ofcourse this effect can be counterd but the only way I know is using rocket motors and this kinda nullifies the save you made using the maglev. (I believe ppl are working on a way to use the centric force of the orbit around the earth but as far as I know whis is barely enough to keep the ISS hanging up there but we'll c) QQ2 don't flame me for the grammar. If you feel the need, alteast attempt to be witty about the content

Re:This idea is not fairly new... (1)

KM1 (409622) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784284)

Well you could always use a second massdriver to launch a dummy weight in the opposite direction at the same time. However this doubles the amount of energy used. Doing the launch at the correct orbital position would save the earth from being bombarded by dummy weights.

What is water, Pat. (0, Redundant)

Burgundy Advocate (313960) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784110)

Cool technology, let's hope that the Navy research gets us a step closer to not burning all that Oxygen and Hydrogen to get to space...

Yeah, totally! I mean, the exhaust produced by burning oxygen and hydrogen is just so toxic and hard to use! I can't think of anything natural that can even utilize it.

ITALICS YOU MORON!!! (-1)

GaylordFucker (465080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784113)

always with you ChrisD!!!!! well i'm going to the Linux World Expo, Jan 29 - Feb 1, when i see your ass at the slashdot booth, i'm gonna break my foot off in your ass so hard... that the whole VA booth is probably going to need to help me get my foot out of your ass

NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

Colz Grigor (126123) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784114)

Why doesn't NASA take this one step further...

Attach a long magnetic launcher to the ISS. This would allow us to take a satellite to orbit via the shuttle, attach it to the magnetic launcher, and then we wouldn't have to wait years to send probes to other planets. And when we're ready to visit Mars by the year 2020, we can use the ISS railgun and get there in one month instead of six...

::Colz Grigor

--

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (2)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784120)

Except there's that funny problem about space. If you launch a spacecraft off of the ISS with a magnetic launcher, then the ISS itself is moved in the opposite direction (based on the relative mass of the station to the vehicle). That is, the ISS is launched, most likely to a lesser degree though, than the vehicle is. Kind of like (but not really at all like) dropping sandbags from a hot air balloon.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

N Monkey (313423) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784193)

Except there's that funny problem about space. If you launch a spacecraft off of the ISS with a magnetic launcher, then the ISS itself

is moved in the opposite direction (based on the relative mass of the station to the vehicle).

I might be missing something here, but it seems to me that you can kill two birds with one stone by aiming and timing such a launch correctly.

Clearly, due to the tiny amount of drag, over time the oribit of the station decays and so will occasionally need a push. If you launched the probe so that it was in the "opposite" direction to the velocity of the ISS, it would boost the orbit of ISS (effectively becoming a rocket motor). Also given the (assumed) differences in mass between the ISS and the probe, the speed of the probe should be much greater. You simply wait till the orbit position of the ISS is such that the probe will be launched in the appropriate direction.

Simon
/me waits to be told what an idiot I am

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784229)

The energy used in an orbital correction isn't enough to significantly propel a (reasonably lighter) spacecraft in an opposite direction.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

Andux (260446) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784246)

If you launched the probe so that it was in the "opposite" direction to the velocity of the ISS, it would boost the orbit of ISS

Yes, but then you'd be launching the probe directly towards Earth, which is great if you want to smash several hundred tons of steel into Afghanistan, but not so good for delicate sensor equipment.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (2)

Jeremi (14640) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784126)

sounds like a good way for the ISS to magnetically propel itself right out of orbit...

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

xX_sticky_Xx (526967) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784132)

The ISS is hardly a stable or large enough platform for this technology, but I think your idea is in the right direction. Why not put one of these on the moon (aside from cost of course)? A few problems would have to be solved, namely power generation on the moon. Solar power, with a MUCH higher intensity than on earth's might do the trick.

This would be a long term (15-20 year) project. If the technology makes its way around maybe it could be an idea in the future.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784218)

Good idea. IMHO there wouldn't need to be any breakthroughs in solar panel technology to make this work - the intensity of sunlight would be significantly higher without an atmosphere to scatter it, and more importantly the moon has room. A few square km of inefficient panels still produce a lot of juice. Combine this with, say, flywheel energy storage and you could be on to a winner.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (3, Informative)

Jherico (39763) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784139)

Attach a long magnetic launcher to the ISS.

Lots of reasons. First problem is to keep the ISS from being flung in the opposite direction of the direction of the launch. You could possibly solve that one by making each launch fire the actual launch vehicle and a waste mass in the opposite direction to conserve momentum, but then you double the power requirements and the mass you have to get into orbit.

The next problem is that because of tidal forces any long linear object in orbit will be pulled into an orientation where the long axis of the station is pointed directly at the earth. The center of mass of any object in orbit at orbital speed, but anything closer to the earth is moving slower than orbital speed (because speed to maintain orbit gets faster the closer you get to the center of the earth, but the whole object can only go at a fixed speed) and anything further away from the center of mass of the station is moving faster than orbital velocity.

At any rate, if you've got a long structure in orbit, one end will point at the earth, the other directly away. The amount of energy required to point the launcher anywhere remotely useful would probably be better spent attached to the object you want to launch in the first place.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

Sobrique (543255) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784272)

Well, you don't _have_ to double the mass.
I suspect that if you were to use raw atoms and fired them much faster then momentum would also be conserved.
Would this work with a single electron at relativistic speeds? Less mass needed, but I suspect more overall energy - although perhaps with solar power and really big capacitors you might be able to.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

Sobrique (543255) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784265)

Not to mention making the most deadly weapon ever.
Orbital bombardment at 'significant' velocities? Oh yeah, let's not even bother with the nukes, kinetic energy will be more than enough.

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (1)

sirsnork (530512) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784346)

Yup... check a nice large reator up there as well to power it. Or maybe hoping for those super doopy advanced solar panels ;-)

Re:NASA's lack of foresight... (2, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784392)

They have plenty of foresitgh...

Launching that way makes you only cause large amounts of impact craters. something we are really good at putting on mars. How are you going to decelerate? if you launc, in space, with much more energy than you can overcome with the device it's self you will never stop until impact. Atmospheric breaking works only at slower speeds, the speed you are talking about would probably cause impact damage upon hitting the atmosphere of mars.

Kind of a strange idea.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784116)

Maybe something like that would make an awesome NYC WTT memorial tribute? It'll never happen, but it'd be cool.

-1, Off Topic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784121)

What's this new "relationships" button? More importantly, what purpose does it serve? Please explain!

Perhaps a silly question? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784127)

There's probably a good reason against this. But why not have a rocket take off that drags a string behind it? And, say, take the string to the moon. Then you can have whatever that needs to go into space just climb the string/rope/whatever? And can it be used to generate electricity?

Re:Perhaps a silly question? (5, Informative)

Jherico (39763) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784180)

But why not have a rocket take off that drags a string behind it? And, say, take the string to the moon.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that no material has the tensile strength to hold its own weight all the way to the moon. If you held a 5 foot string, it weighs practically nothing. If you dug a 100 mile hold and held a 100 mile string that was dangling down it it would rip your arm off. If you suspended it from something stronger than you, the string would just break under its own weight.

Plus you can't anchor a string to the earth and the moon. The earth rotates much faster than the moon orbits. If you attached it to just the earth it would only line up with the moon once a day, and it would be going so fast as it passed it you would be smashed into the moon. By the same token if you attached it to the moon, it would fly around the earth every 24 hours, meaning it would be blazingly fast, about 350 mph. Bad rope burn if you try to grab it.

However, it might be possible to build a 'string' that is strong enough to simply lead into orbit. Anchor one end to the earth, and the other to a large mass slightly outside geosync orbit, which is still way way closer than the moon. Then you can climb the string all the way to the mass and be flung away from the earth. At any rate we still don't have strong enough string. Yet.

Re:Perhaps a silly question? (1)

Sobrique (543255) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784242)

I think Arthur C. Clark wrote about this in 'The fountains of paradise' (could be wrong there though)
A 'space elevator' to the moon is a little impractical - not the least reason is that the moon is not in geosynchronous orbit with the earth.
Of course, the idea that you could have a geostationary platform, and a 'cable' to it has been bounced around. It's one of those 'well in theory it might work' sort of ideas - You're right about no material strong enough though - IIRC only spiders web, and kevlar even come close to being able to support their own weight when you're talking about a couple of hundred kilometres.
Mono-filament anyone? Bucky tubes perhaps?
Of course, the other problem is that you have conservation of energy problems. If you lift 20 tons into orbit, the 'platform' get's pulled downwards thus making it break orbit.
The solution is a counterweight, but that becomes really difficult if you are using the platform for orbital launches. You'd have to resupply the counterweights by a 'conventional' launch.
It would work out somewhat cheaper though. (Since the vast majority of energy in a launch is spent climbing out of the earth's 'potential energy well')
I also seem to recall that if you trail a 'really long' conductor (1+Km) in space, you get some interesting things happen. Different ends of the conductor are at different points within the earth and the sun's magnetic field, meaning that you can get a current flow. Which could be entertaining if we wanted to build a monorail to the moon :)

Re:Perhaps a silly question? (1)

kghougaard (315693) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784507)

Actually allmost any material could be used.

The string just have to become thicker on its way up. MUCH thicker. As i remember a steel wire would have to be approximately 5000 km thick at the top to be one mm at the ground - a little impractical.

Arthur C. Clarke was asked to predict when a space elavator would be build: 50 years after poeple stopped laughing :-)

Maybe it can be done. Nanotubes could be a "realistic" material. From the numbers I remember, the nanotube would have to be 30cm wide at the top to hold a reasonable payload, so maybe it will see the light of day sometime in the far future.

kristian

Red/Green/Blue Mars (2, Interesting)

iGawyn (164113) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784537)

Kim Stanley Robinson wrote the RGB Mars book series, in which a space elevator was built on Mars. If I remember correctly (it's been a while since I read it), they modified the orbit of Deimos (or Phobos, I forget which) to geosynchronous, grabbed an asteroid or two from the asteroid belt, and had self-replicating robots build a factory there and start "spinning" diamond-filament threads.

By the time the asteroid got to Mars, most of the cable was already built, at which point it was anchored at a massive hold on the surface, and elevator cars were constructed to go up and down the elevator, using counterweights.

I believe that the problem of balancing it if you tried to "launch" something off the top of the platform was to simply give it a little push away, let it float off on it's own, and then use it's own engines to propel it.

Although it may seem a bit farfetched, I think that within the next decade, technology will allow us to realistically dream of doing this, although since we don't have nice-sized moons like Deimos or Phobos, we'd need to bring a bunch of asteroids in, which would make plenty of people on Earth rather anxious.

Still, it's a great theory, and perhaps some day we can get space elevators for cheap transportation into space.

Gawyn

I thought that... (1)

comic-not (316313) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784141)

... this would only be feasible on planetary bodies lacking a substantial atmosphere, e.g., the Moon, where a mass drive would be the most effective way to transfer mined materials to an L point. I cannot think of a scenario where they'd launch anything from the surface of the Earth with any kind of mass drive. Space elevator, perhaps, mass drive, hell, no.

Comic - not!

page lengthening post! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784143)

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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This is fine and dandy (1)

iq in binary (305246) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784144)

But it's not really that much of an improvement. The energy needed to create the electricity sufficient enough to accomplice this feat would be the equivalent of sending it up via hydro/carbons or any other volatile gas. The idea of Mag/Lev being used to launch vehicles into space is a great suggestion, once we make more breakthroughs in superconductivity and emf, it will become a spectacular solution.

Re:This is fine and dandy (1)

iq in binary (305246) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784157)

Ack forgive me i didn't see the original so i though it wasn't posted. Sorry!

Re:This is fine and dandy (1)

comic-not (316313) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784176)

The energy needed to create the electricity sufficient enough to accomplice this feat would be the equivalent of sending it up via hydro/carbons or any other volatile gas

Not so. The fuel/energy demand for a given delta-V scales exponentially for a conventional rocket, since it must accelerate both the rocket and itself. The energy consumption of a mass drive, however, only scales (approximately) linearly which is a really huge difference.

Comic - not!

Speed up AND slow down (2, Interesting)

scriptkiddie (28961) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784148)

The article mentions that you can use a mag-lev system to vastly increase the velocity of an aircraft. But on a carrier, it's also necessary to slow the aircraft down very quickly for a landing. Mag-lev is suited to this task as well - by turning the magnets "backwards," it is possible to reverse the direction of the track.

By using mag-lev for both takeoffs and landings, the Navy could presumably have takeoffs and landings on the same boat very close to each other, without the complexity of the current mechanical system. But, of course, mag-levs are useless for landings from spacee, since spacecraft usually don't have wings - and those that do can just use parachutes for losing speed.

Re:Speed up AND slow down (1)

jacks0n (112153) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784567)

"turning magnets backwards" is an awkward turn of phrase, but I think I know what you mean. Actually the Maglev and Drive parts of these motors are often completely separate (not true in a rail gun type setup though.)- so what you would want to do is leave the mag-lev in the same state and reverse the drive of the (linear) motor. Though this is probably not the best soloution (for the Navy) either. Passive eddy current braking is probably easier and certainly cheaper. and regardless of the technology doing the starting and stopping, It'll have to be bkwds compatible with every fighter made in the last 50 years, so It'll have the same mechanical interfaces you see today.


Mechanical Complexity. Maglev, with linear motors and associated control systems are complicated. don't let the lack of moving parts decieve you. One part the company I work for makes has hundreds of not-moving parts to replace four moving parts- in an application very similar to this. Which system is more failure prone? expensive? It depends, but isn't always obvious.

Disclaimer: I work for a company that makes linear motors and maglev devices. Heck, we're probably some of the idiots doing conceptual work for them.

New ICBM delivery method? (3, Interesting)

flacco (324089) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784169)

Would this result in lighter ICBM's with no vulnerable, sluggish launch phase and no heat signature during launch?

Though I guess you'd have a hell of an "electro-magnetic signature".

Re:New ICBM delivery method? (1)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784209)

Now *that* is a interesting idea. I wonder if there are any drawbacks, other than quite visably announcing where your launch sites are? But it would seem to make for a good first strike capability.

Re:New ICBM delivery method? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784315)

Did any of you ever play Metal Gear Solid? Cause that was one of the main points; railgun launched nukes...

Re:New ICBM delivery method? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784451)

Now *that* is a interesting idea. I wonder if there are any drawbacks, other than quite visably announcing where your launch sites are? But it would seem to make for a good first strike capability.

Well, except that your launch sites are freakin' huge and expensive, consume vast amounts of electrical power, can only fire one shot at a time, and have only one trajectory. Versus small, (relatively) cheap, mobile, retargetable ICBMs that you can launch en mass.

SCRAM jet launcher? (1)

mancuskc (211986) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784182)

Anyone know how long the rail would have to be to get a craft to Mach 2-3 with survivable acceleration? Perhaps one of those supersonic ramjets could take over at that point - they need to be supersonic to light up, don't they?

You'd still save shedloads of fuel - and increase payload, and thats the point, right?

Re:SCRAM jet launcher? (1)

astrosmurf (546405) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784407)

Anyone know how long the rail would have to be to get a craft to Mach 2-3 with survivable acceleration? Perhaps one of those supersonic ramjets could take over at that point - they need to be supersonic to light up, don't they? You'd still save shedloads of fuel - and increase payload, and thats the point, right?
Don't know how long the rail would have to be (2 g accel to 600m/s would give roughly 9000 m). I do know that some people talked about this at the isabe conference in chattanooga 1997. The general idea is to build a maglev up a mountain, place a rocket/shuttle on the sled, accelerate up, drop the sled in a parashute and light the ramjet engine. This would reduce the oxygene needed, as you would burn oxygene from the atmosphere.

They were however talking about unmanned vessels, hence no need to make the acceleration survivable. I guess you don't want to accelerate people to Mach2 before trying to start the engine...

Re:SCRAM jet launcher? (2)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784410)

That depends.

In college I was able to drive a 1" steel ball through a 12" brick wall with a 3 foot railgun. (Teflon tube with large coils spaced at a semi-logarythmic scale along the length with a simple computer control.) I am sure the steel ball was travelling at mach 1 or more. firing tests over lake michigan would result in a projectile that could not be tracked visually after firing and would not register on a bullet speed detector sold for testing reloads of standard rifle rounds.

if you dont put people in it, I am sure you could get way over mach 3.

I only recieved a C on the project as the instructor could not see any real use for the device or design... typical...

More information (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784200)

More information can be found here. [shacknews.com]

This might be very bad. (1)

Krapangor (533950) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784203)

The mag-lev system uses very strong magnetic fields at a relatively high frequency.
These frequencies are suspected to cause resonaces in the metallic core of earth, which creates earth's magnetic field.
The energy payloads used before for mag-lev trains etc. are relatively small, so that gravitational e-m wave reflection and refraction consumes these energy amounts and they have no effect. For space launches however you need very much energy which won't be consumed completely. So the energy will add up over several launches over time and will increase the earth core resonace oscillation steadily. At low energy levels this will cause an increased number and stronger earthquakes. But if large payloads are used this is much more dangerous, because the oscillation will break apart earths silicate hull and earth will break in little pieces. The asteriod belt is suspected to be created by a planet breaking apart due to core oscillations. See Eisenberg/Pronellis works on this.

So I think we such think twice before using this.

Re:This might be very bad. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784235)

Is this what happened on your home planet?

Cost per what? (3, Troll)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784211)

  • NASA hopes to drive down the cost of rocket departures from $10,000 per pound to $1,000 per pound

Whoa there, son. Y'all from the future? Let's use units we all understand: what's that work out to in bushels of cotton per hectare?

Hmmm, I can't help but think that if we ceased habitually using stone age units of measurement, then we might be able to stop pounding Mars with "landers" ;-)

100 degrees farenheit (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784279)

is the temperature of fresh ox blood. I've often wondered if US weather reporters need to perform some sort of ritual to calibrate their thermometers...

Re:Cost per what? (1, Flamebait)

bpowell423 (208542) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784514)

I wish people would stop banging on the English units. Use metric if you want and leave the rest of us alone! I'm either 5'11" (say, roughly 6') tall or 180.34cm. Now, which of those gives you a better mental picture of how tall I am? For scientific things, yes, powers of 10 work out real nice and all, but for everyday things, who the heck cares if you have to remember there's 12 inches in a foot... not that hard! The English units make a LOT more sense in everyday sorts of things. And, by the way, bushels of cotton per ACRE makes a lot of sense if you're raising cotton. Does metric even have "dry volume" measurements? I guess we could go with HECTOLITERS OF COTTON PER HECTARE? If my math is right, 1 bushel per acre works out to 0.8705 hectoliters per hectare.

I suppose the CORRECT figures for NASA should have been a goal of 2.58 EUROS per GRAM! (Assuming an exchange rate of 1 EURO = $0.85, which is close.)

Sorry for the rant. :)

Cool (1)

Yusaku Godai (546058) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784217)

This isn't a new idea but it's cool that NASA's working on it. They might need something like that with this budget crunch. I'm surprised they can even afford to play with just the idea :P In remember in Final Fantasy 8 they used a combination of some big gun and mag-lev to launch ships into space. It was one of the cooler things in that game.

What about EM rail to pass lower atmosphere? (2, Insightful)

AtariDatacenter (31657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784221)

Based on what I've read so far, it really isn't realistic to expect something like the space shuttle to be placed into orbit 100% from an EM rail. However, I'd go back to those other unconventional designs, like a helicopter or a jet being used as a launch vehicle for something designed to go into orbit. Those are being pushed because the benefit is that they clear the lower, dense atmosphere, which is where a lot of fuel is said to be spent.

If you look at am EM rail as something not to completely launch a vehicle into orbit, but to clear the dense portion of the lower atmosphere (and maybe give it enough velocity to save fuel on acceleration), doesn't it make more sense? That is, an EM rail as part of a greater delivery system, and not the whole delivery system?

A few points to make... (3, Insightful)

Daniel Wood (531906) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784228)

Hopefully, we can reduce the weight of the fuel and oxidizer that's needed to be carried on board the vehicle and that will decrease the size of the vehicle," said NASA scientist Kenneth House. "So hopefully, we could get more payload into space with less of the fuel."

They want to reduce the fuel needed. Meaning the launch vehicles will have to do some thrust by themselves, but not nearly as much.

Also, some people have noted that g-forces would be a problem. Not likely, if we angle the vehicle at a 45-degree starting angle we drastically reduce the ammount of g-forces needed.

Another point, the maglev system is frictionless. The LV is at no time during the launch touching the track. You've seen bullet-trains, right? Same consept. This further reduces the work needed to launch a vehicle.

I do see this system working. It will probably be 10 years or so, but it will work.

Old Technology ;-) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784233)

Well, not so much in execution but in conception. MagLev space launchers (including some military application) were a fundamental part in "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress" (Heinlein), and the space elevator was (IIRC) first mentioned in "Fountains of Paradise" (Clarke, but I'm a bit fuzzy on both title and author). Both of them ususally have their facts right, no matter what you think about their literary merits.
Regarding MagLev: "all" you have to do is reach 11.2 km/s outside the atmosphere, the direction of the launch is irrelevant. Using a completely straight launch rail, starting horizontally (you'll have to think about earth curvature here) will only result in having more atmosphere to punch through - you'll still end up in orbit (or way beyond). One of the ideas in the latter part of "The Moon..." was setting up such a "catapult" in the Himalayas, which would get quite a bit of the atmosphere out of the way (at the risk of having to fire those things across Japan and towards the US). Big disadvantage would be the sonic boom, though ;-)

page lengthening post! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784239)

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

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Laser Propulsion is cooler (1)

satanami69 (209636) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784253)

It's called the LightCraft [rpi.edu] and has a working kick butt laser propulsion system. Discovery Wings had a whole hour special on it caleld "World of Wonder", which was narrated by Michael Dorn.

Anyway, they don't need more money, they just need to read more google groups [google.com]

Ah, space... (1)

hatchet (528688) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784255)

Indians developed anti-gravity propulsions eons ago! Info here [allwebco.com] Of course they didn't find spaceship yet.. but lets keep our fingers crossed:)

Oh, and by the way if you haven't know.. I am a real Martian! A proof! [his.com]

Yeah... (2)

Kymermosst (33885) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784260)

let's hope that the Navy research gets us a step closer to not burning all that Oxygen and Hydrogen to get to space...

...We wouldn't want all the resulting water vapor polluting our atmosphere, and our poor mother earth.

Oxygen and Hydrogen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784301)

What would we do with all that water :-)

NASA has been watching too many STAR TREK (1)

asciimonster (305672) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784266)

I remember an STV (Star Trek: Voyager) episode [startrek.com] in which Neelix and Tuvok repaired an "orbital tether", a magnetic wire into the stratosphere to launch carrages. Had a consperacy and some aliens who launched astroids at planets too.

No mam, Sci-Fi doesn't rot your brains out, it's educational!

page lengthening post! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784293)

Back by unpopular demand, more random number crapflooding!

3 [goatse.cx]
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20 year old technology (5, Funny)

nsample (261457) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784321)

This makes me feel REALLY old, but the EML technology research has been going on for over 20 years. I recall the 1990 High School CX debate topic very well and spent most of the year debating EML launchers (prototyped on Sandia National Labs railgun). We spent the summer in the library in New Mexico visiting Sandia and UNM to research our cases. They were already launching coffee can-sized payloads at that time.

Some of the EML experiments from the late 80s and early 90s were visited at a 95 IEEE pulsed power conference: here [navy.mil] . Of course, it's been a HOT topic since pre-85, when the first IEEE pulsed power conference was held.

We've been at the brink of maglev space launches for the alst 20 decades. Maybe it'll happen tomorrow. Probably not. There's basically no money in this sort of solution for defense contractors, so it generally languishes in congressional committees when it comes time to fund...

Oh well. It would be cheaper, cleaner, safer, and a whole helluva lot more fun at parties... but the same issues applied 20 years ago as today: it doesn't get funded b/c it's a public works-type solution to space. There's no money for Lockheed in something like that.

Re:20 year old technology (1)

nsample (261457) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784326)

er, "last 20 years", not "alst 20 decades"

Why not a railgun? (2)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784381)

a payload the size of most smaller sattelites or even a resupply module for the ISS could easily be flung into space with a railgun. The technology is proven, doesnt require special superconductors, and they have plenty of linear space at the cape to build a launch facility. The only thing they would need is a massive amount of electrical energy... like their own power plant.

In fact they were going to build such a launch system back in the 80's... I remember seeing it in a Pop-Sci magazine when I was in highschool.

Re:Why not a railgun? (1)

coreman (8656) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784609)

Ummmm... That's what this is? electro-magnetic propulsion of a magnetically levitated vehicle.

space aged tree fort (2, Funny)

Orange Amphibian (548006) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784432)

Magnets schmagnets, lets just tie a long rope to the space station and we can climb up, like in gym class.

microwave beam assisted propulsion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784444)

i think a feasible option would be to have energy beamed to a rocket via a microwave beam, which would be used to magnetically accelerate an amount of fuel out the back of a rocket, augmenting the normal propulsive power of the rocket engine, and thus requiring less fuel

I hope the rockets will work (2, Interesting)

kghougaard (315693) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784464)

Great idea to save some fuel.

Give the spacecraft a push, so you can wait until a certain hight before you turn on the rockets.

This is great if the rockets then actually ignite. Otherwise you would look kind of silly just throwing a spacecraft high into the air and then just watching as it drops :-)

By the way - to all those posts discussing geo-stationary orbit and earth escape velocity. You dont need to go all that way :-) The space station is orbiting in approximately 400 km, and it is much cheaper to go there.

Kristian

silly magnets (2, Interesting)

buzban (227721) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784477)

I'm glad that maglev technology is finally being applied to something worthwhile. I'm getting really tired of seeing all the maglev rail transportation projects that never go anywhere (figuratively and literally)... :

Yeah Right (1)

ONOIML8 (23262) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784517)

That's all nice Cap'n Kirk, and I know that funding is tight and all.....

but the fact that even with tight funding they've only put $30,000 to the task tells me that nobody really ever expects this to pay off. Ever.

... (0)

sjwt (161428) | more than 12 years ago | (#2784549)

"let's hope that the Navy research gets us a step closer to not burning all that Oxygen and Hydrogen to get to space..."

yerh, all those poultents preduced by burning
O and H...

goto think of the enviroment

*sigh* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2784559)

I think we can say that Nasa won't be doing anything terribly great in the near future, unless it's by pure luck/act of dog.

We *so* *need* public corporations/conglomerations working on space travel and technology. A $30k budget.. For something like this.. Maybe they could buy a chip of ram for a supercomputer. :P

It's just so.. utterly laughable, yet so terribly sad. This is what we've become. We went to the moon. We planted a flag there. And now, politicians throw Nasa a few scraps and say, "Don't bother us."

I honestly don't expect to see anything happen with this on a $30k budget. Hell.. I know plenty of IT departments that get more than that! :P

Maybe we could get some of the open source idealism working in terms of space technology. Yes, I know, many people would shudder at the prospect of riding a rocket from someone's backyard (Not to mention the zoning difficulties I'm sure would be encountered..).. But hey, new frontiers aren't explored without risk to life and limb.

But really, there's got to be enough brains sitting around interested in this sort of thing that they could volunteer to come up with ideas on improving space tech.

Selling them to the government/Nasa might be the hard part, but frankly, they're a dead end in terms of space - the DoD wants Star Wars, and Nasa is playing with monopoly money (As in the pink and yellow stuff with the choo choo trains on it.)..

Once, just once, before I die, I'd like to go out to space without the need for a horrendous amount of math classes and an astronaut uniform. :)
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