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Defamation, Free Speech, Jurisdiction and the Net?

Cliff posted more than 12 years ago | from the stuff-to-talk-about dept.

News 349

An anonymous reader asks: "I'm writing a legal article on jurisdiction and defamation via the web. There seems to be a trend in various national courts (eg the UK, Australia, Malaysia) to treat the place where a web-page is *read* (ie browsed) as the place of publication of its contents, regardless of where the page or the server serving it are located. This has far-reaching ramifications, as it opens up anyone publishing anything on a web-site (and also Usenet) in America to the more restrictive domestic laws of other countries -- not just for slander/libel/defamation, but also treason, lese-majestie, hate speech and general censorship laws (think Yahoo and France). Does anyone have personal, practical experience of being threatened by foreign governments or government bodies for material put up on the Net? Or is it just an inevitable consequence, to be overcome by geographical tagging of a browser's location (think icravetv.com) or similar measures?"

"Many people assert that informed Netizens see this as a way of fragmenting the Net, of imposing geographic boundaries and destroying part of the fundamental location-agnostic nature of the web and the Net -- ie, that it's a Bad Thing. Is this really so? Does anyone see this as a good, or at least a neutral, thing?"

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Calculus Orgasm (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811706)

I have them all the time. I love my calculus so much. I want to dance on a calculus book, naked!

Mensaaaaaaje (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811711)

El mensaje primero!

Why Slashdot Sucks (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811716)

I work with a bunch of geeks. And that's okay. They do their thing and I do mine. Most of the time I'm happy for them, that they get joy and happiness out of playing with electronics. Admittedly I disagree with a lot of their thoughts about life. People used to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe, then it was the sun, but now we all know that the computer is the focal point of the universe, projecting its cathode ray goodness on our souls. You can't eat, sleep, breathe, live or run a business without one, or so we're told.

But if there's one thing I have no tolerance for, it's the geek phenomenon known as slashdot.org, the sorriest case for content on the web I've ever seen pawned off and gleefully accepted by the masses.

When I look at magazines, newspapers, or any other source of information, I judge them on three items: usefulness/uniqueness of content, quality of that content, and the depth of coverage regarding that content.

Slashdot has none of these things. And yet people try to convince me that the people who run that website are working hard at it.

Say what?

That's right - when Andover.net filed its IPO, making the editors of Slashdot instant wannabe millionaires, someone in the office said "Those guys put in a lot of hard work, and they deserve the success."

Now, I write code for a living, and I work hard at it, so I have a good idea of how slashdot operates. I guarantee you that the entire website is little more than leftover code from college projects and other unrelated work. At the very best, it is ill-conceived and poorly developed, which explains in part why the interface is so miserably awful, and the site is unbelievably slow.

Let's theorize what goes on in the average day of the slashdot editors:

10:42 AM - get out of bed.
10:45 AM - first Dr Pepper of the day.
10:46 AM - unglue keyboard from desk, check stock market.
10:56 AM - find a few interesting tech stories on the web. This is easy, since users send them to us all the time.
11:04 AM - post said stories to slashdot, disregarding spelling and journalistic impartiality.
11:08 AM - start playing Quake 3 (or whatever the game of the moment is).
3:15 AM - go to sleep.

If I'm wrong about anything, it's that they get up even later than that. And I couldn't figure out what time that order the pizza for dinner. But they have pepperoni on them.

Content - The content of slashdot is, admittedly, targeted towards geeks. But apparently not very smart ones. Regardless of the target audience, the content is never challenging - it never pushes the reader to think. Have we become a society where the last place you really exercise your brain is in grammar school? The average news article on slashdot is little more than a snippet from some tech rag about a new product that everyone loves, usually with an editorial comment tossed in telling everyone how they should feel about it.

I can get that same crap anywhere else. The TV tells me what to think, newspapers and magazines back them up, and slashdot does the same exact thing and is somehow worshipped as a haven for free thinking.

Quality - Why not try out that spellchecker? One word for you slashdot folks: dictionary. Try one on for size. Work on your spelling and grammar, and once those improve I'll attack the quality of your writing.

Consider this - Jon Katz is the best writer on slashdot. If you're familiar with his work, then you might appreciate that, or you might realize how lousy the writing must be if that's the case.

Katz has written some decent articles for slashdot (In particular, his Hellmouth series). But he's too wrapped up in the medium to see what he writes about. He's too busy dropping buzzwords that define his writing more than his actual content.

But the truly amazing thing about him is - almost everyone who reads slashdot hates Katz. They loathe him. The self-proclaimed geeks who read slashdot don't want to be challenged by his writing. There are people who attack every article he writes, regardless of the content.

Depth - unless its the updated release schedule for the new linux kernel or a new game, you're not going to get much repeat coverage on slashdot. And you're not likely to extract much from an article unless you already knew a certain amount of information about the topic. Once again, the exception might be Katz, who writes multi-part articles, but mostly that's because he's a hopeless wheezebag.

The thing that really scares me is that all sorts of little slashdots are popping up all over the web, popular sources of sludge pawned off on the accepting readers, and we readily accept is all as verse. Is this what 200 years of the Industrial Revolution primed us for? 50 years of television? Or was it something else? In my short lifetime I've watched the quality of information sources decline to a point where coverage is simplistic enough that it could be fictionalized and no one would notice the difference. While people ignore the WTO or slaughters in Burundi, Angola, Cambodia, anywhere else to devote coverage to wonder drugs, the newest Internet craze, the Hollywood minute, or any other sort of "News you can use."

And now, in a time when information should be even more readily available, so much of it is crap that finding the gems is rarely worth the shit you need to shovel. The sort of crap you find at slashdot instead of insightful knowledge about this increasingly impersonal, computerized world that we all blithely accept and even embrace.

And that is why slashdot sucks. That website isn't encouraging any free thought, any independent thinking, and certainly not any dissenting viewpoints on the information age. And we all accept it, even 'credible' websites like Wired frequently link to slashdot as their source of expert information and news updates.

If you're not directly connected to the information you want, you're not likely to find anything of depth nowadays. And if you have that sort of connection, then why do you need the web in the first place?

As if cars, skyscrapers, television, mini malls, supermarkets, drugs, war, and McRainForest (brought to you by the Big Mac!) weren't enough, now we have to venture out on the web with millions of other people, and not once challenge out horizons or open our minds.

Willow John

archive this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811982)

archive this manifesto and crap-flood every article with it, everyone should read it, because its true.

first defamation! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811717)

Test this: @# +5 ; Politically Correct #@ (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811838)

My complaint about Jon Katz:

My complaint about John Katz

May I be cynical for a bit? I hope you don't mind,
but with Katz's latest barrage of
malodorous notions, I can't resist the urge to make a
few cynical comments. To get right
down to it, some of the facts I'm about
to present may seem shocking. This
they certainly are. However, it's time that a few
facts had a chance to slip through the fusillade of hype.
What's my problem, then? Allow me to present it
in the form of a question: Where are the people
who are willing to stand up and acknowledge
that Katz, in his infinite wisdom, has decided
to destroy the natural beauty of our parks and forests?
On the surface, it would seem to have something to do
with the way that his whole approach is repugnant.
But upon further investigation, one will find that
by allowing Katz to put mephitic thoughts in our
children's minds, we are allowing him to play puppet master.
As for the lies and exaggerations, Katz's
epigrams are rife with contradictions
and difficulties; they're entirely maladroit,
meet no objective criteria, and are unsuited
for a supposedly educated population.
And as if that weren't enough, if Katz is going to
obstruct important things, then he should at least have
the self-respect to remind himself of a few things: First, a
true enemy is better than a false friend. And
second, many people respond to his debauched vituperations
in much the same way that they respond to television
dramas. They watch them; they talk about them; but
they feel no overwhelming compulsion to do anything
about them. That's why I insist we pronounce the truth
and renounce the lies.

Even people who consider themselves scornful
foolhardy-types generally agree that Katz's slurs
symbolize lawlessness, violence, and misguided rebellion
-- extreme liberty for a few, even if the rest of us
lose more than a little freedom. One might conclude
that Katz is incapable of writing a letter without using
such phrases as "crapulous pop psychologists", "loquacious
exhibitionists", "oppressive personae non gratae", or
some combination thereof. Alternatively, one might conclude
that Katz has a different view of reality from the rest of us.
In either case, if you're not part of the solution,
then you're part of the problem. His historical record of
fickle pleas is clearer than the muddled pronouncements
of his apple-polishers for a variety of reasons. For
instance, the worst sorts of inconsiderate Neanderthals there
are must be treated with political justice, not with
civil justice, as they are sincerely not real citizens. Let me
rephrase that: I wonder if he really believes the
things he says. He knows they're not true, doesn't he?
A complete answer to that question would
take more space than I can afford, so I'll have to give
you a simplified answer. For starters, if
we let him cause riots in the streets, then greed,
corruption, and tribalism will characterize the government.
Oppressive measures will be directed against citizens.
And lies and deceit will be the stock and trade of the
media and educational institutions.

Even Katz's bedfellows couldn't deal with the full impact of
Katz's refrains. That's why they created "Katz-ism," which is
just a garrulous excuse to force square
pegs into round holes. He plans to drag everything
that is truly great into the gutter. He has instructed
his votaries not to discuss this or even admit to his
plan's existence. Obviously, Katz knows he has
something to hide. Most of you reading this letter
have your hearts in the right place. Now
follow your hearts with actions. I have traveled the length and
breadth of this country and talked with the best people. I can
therefore assure you that Katz's artifices cannot stand on
their own merit. That's why they're dependent on elaborate
artifices and explanatory stories to convince us that Katz's
warnings can give us deeper insights into the nature of
reality. We can and we must protect ourselves by any means
necessary against the unrestrained bestiality
of stupid, quasi-macabre paper-pushers. And that's the honest truth.

So . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811723)

So, if I'm in the United States and say CMDRTACO SUCKS, does that mean the government of Taconia will have me arrested for heresy?

Re:So . . . (2, Interesting)

digitalmuse (147154) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811887)

that's the general implication. IIRC there are several countries in europe and northern africa where it is illegal to criticise the ruling party/royal family/family-of-the-royal-bed-warmer... wouldn't you love to see every two-bit dictator with an ego-issue sueing cnn.com for 'defamination', 'libel' or here's the clincher... treason.
draw your own conclusions

Unhappy (-1, Offtopic)

arkannis (537683) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811726)

I Never get first posts. :(

wow - i am speechless (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811728)

this is such a gay, karma-whore inducing question that I cannot even respond with some meaningless crap. I am sure that some of slashbots finest karma whores are cutting and pasting from google and past discussions as we speak.

its simple really (2, Funny)

kfckernal (517538) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811738)

Just try to make web sites that please all foriegn governments.

Re:its simple really (2, Funny)

st0rmshad0w (412661) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811765)

Would that be a 404 or 403 error?

Re:its simple really (2, Funny)

A Commentor (459578) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811947)

No, some text on the 404 or 403 page might offend someone...

Try:
<HTML&gt <HEAD&gt </HEAD&gt <BODY&gt </BODY&gt </HTML&gt

Re:its simple really (3, Funny)

FatRatBastard (7583) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811971)

No, the relig. fundamentalists don't like bodies mentioned, let alone HEAD!!! Might excite the masses.

Re:its simple really (1)

JamesOfTheDesert (188356) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812028)

The Web Standards Project will get on this right away!

Radio? (4, Insightful)

st0rmshad0w (412661) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811748)

If they can't do anything about broadcast radio propaganda etc, why should they be able to claim jurisdiction over web traffic? The parallels are pretty close.

Re:Radio? (1)

Breakfast Pants (323698) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811769)

Who are you referring to with that? Nazi propaganda on French radio? Not likely. Please explain yourself and perhaps give some examples and god forbid a link.

Re:Radio? (2, Informative)

st0rmshad0w (412661) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811918)

For example, lets say you have a legally licensed broadcast medium in country A (say a radio station or satelite Tv setup). Your broadcast location is close to neighboring country B, who have a much more strict legal system and what is legal to broadcast in your location is not legal in theirs. HOWEVER, if citizens of nation B decide to tune their radios or switch their channels to your broadcast frequency (read: type URL xxx.xxx.xxx or click a certain link) then how can the legal establishment of country B claim jurisdiction over your content, broadcast from country A. Perhaps by treaty, or some other arrangement, but not otherwise. Country B may take steps to limit its citizens from receiving your content, which should be well within their right to do, but they should not be allowed to dictate the legality of content legally broadcast from other sovereign nations. Would you honestly enjoy a spin through the legal machine of a Taliman style government because photos of your family vacation at the beach are illegal to view in Afghanistan, for example? Remember that the internet is largely everyone's personal tv/radio station, with essentially a global reach.

They do. Re:Radio? (3, Informative)

func (183330) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811814)

Absolutely. If I hear a broadcast from Iran, or any one of the countries that have told the ITF (I think that's the acronym, can't remember right now) that their citizens are not allowed to talk on my ham radio, I'm legally required to not listen to it. I guess I'm supposed to plug my ears, or pull the radio plug out of the wall as soon as I hear a callsign from one of the blacklisted countries. Pretty silly, no?

Re:Radio? (2)

Quasar1999 (520073) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811829)

Because part of the web's data goes through THEIR systems... Physically... they are paying for it, it is using their resources... Broadcasts via radio is not using THEIR resources... That's why.

Riiiiiight... (1)

gvonk (107719) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811876)

Because radios are FREE and require no upkeep, electrical power, etc... SUUURRRE...

Re:Radio? (2)

well_jung (462688) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811917)

Because part of the web's data goes through THEIR systems... Physically... they are paying for it, it is using their resources... Broadcasts via radio is not using THEIR resources... That's why.
If radio waves are not their resources, then why is it bought and sold and licensed and regulated?

And if radio/tv does not use resources, why is it that I can go to jail for using what is "physically" on my property? (DirecTV "pirating")

Re:Radio? (1)

Yo Grark (465041) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811968)

Just an FYI, in Canada, DirecTV "pirating" still isn't illegal. Even though DirecTV has brought people and companies to court, the Canadian Courts have deemed the "pirating" of DirecTV not illegal, though to sell or use the Cards in the US, is illegal. Go figure eh?

Re:Radio? (2)

Quasar1999 (520073) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811975)

And if radio/tv does not use resources, why is it that I can go to jail for using what is "physically" on my property? (DirecTV "pirating")

Probably because you are in the US, and you are STEALING their service. You do not go to jail if you simply receive their signal, you go to jail if you decrypt their signal without their permission. Big difference between pirating, and using resources.

The 'resources' aka the frequencies are liscensed by the government simply to keep interferance to a minimum. So technically yes, both TV/Radio use resources, but they are in a different category than those resources that are used by the web.

Re:Radio? (2)

FatRatBastard (7583) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811945)

Then I would argue that the responsibility to stop any illegal activity from crossing their borders. If I publish something that breaks a law in Australia and it finds its way there thru one of thier servers / datalines, then the gov't should blame those that are allowing such material to cross into their countries.

Of course, this is hard as hell for them to do, so its politically easier to go after the orig. author.

Re:Radio? (2)

Computer! (412422) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812009)

It's illegal in most countries to own extremely high-powered broadcast equipment in certain (like FM) bands. This is so that London has to buy transponders in France in order to have it's content broadcast there. That way, the French can regulate British content in France. This analogy flies out the window when you realize that it only takes a NIC to broadcast worldwide instantly.

What is your favorite number. (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811755)

Choose one from the below list!
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Sorry theyre WRONG (3, Interesting)

CDWert (450988) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811762)

If I put a BillBoard up on Canadian Soil bashing an American company can they sue me in America , (where as on the web it can be seen from) NO !

Its crap, If I shout slanders from France to Germany say can I be sued in Germany NO,

If I dance Naked in ??? and you can see me from ??? (Alright bad example as you would most certainly be blind at that point) and its legal to dance naked where I am , can I be sued for indecent exposure where you are ?

I tell you this I some worthless Aussie tried to sue me here I go over there and show the boy what "Down Under" really means.........

I hate CmdrTaco (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811773)

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Broadcast mediums and other countries? (3, Interesting)

pm (11079) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811778)

If you use the (admittedly stretched) analogy of the internet as a broadcast medium, then you should be able to look at how current laws governing radio and television broadcasts are handled.

What are the laws like covering broadcasts and how are they enforced? With the right medium (satellite, etc.) you should be able to reach many parts of the world where various broadcasts are deemed illegal. For example, pornography and some countries in the Middle East. How are these handled? I would have thought political broadcasts by one country might be deemed illegal in other countries with differing views.

IP treaties may threaten our free speech in USA (4, Insightful)

Artifice_Eternity (306661) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811789)

With WIPO and others creating interlocking treaties to enforce "intellectual property rights" across national borders, our own 1st Amendment rights may be increasingly threatened.

Things that we'd regard as valid speech may offend other governments or piss off multinational corporations -- I just hope they won't gain the leverage to suppress them across borders. Certainly in areas connected to copyrighted, trademarked and patented material, the big corporations are trying to gain global power to suppress speech they don't like.

Re:IP treaties may threaten our free speech in USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811953)

I just hope they won't gain the leverage to suppress them across borders.

You mean like this treaty [cnet.com] ?

I'm afraid it's too late to worry about that [slashdot.org] .

Re:IP treaties may threaten our free speech in USA (2)

BranMan (29917) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812003)

You know, this is something we should all have seen coming from a long way off. For years Sci-Fi writers and pundits have been preaching that the Internet is the beginnings of a movement towards world wide government - making things homogeneous across international boundaries in things like laws.

What everyone seemed to miss is that politics is inherently a creater of compromise. Neither side in a dispute ever (ok, hardly ever) gets their own way - inevitably a compromise is reached.

So what they really missed is looking around the world and realizing we have the MOST free national laws (to use the term loosly). I think everyone envisioned the rest of the world being elevated up to our standards of law and justice and due process.

In reality, from WIPO and elsewhere, we are being dragged 'down' to a more common level with the despots, the tyrants, the police states. Those who are least free will see a letting up of the iron bootjack. Those who are more free will see more of a police state.

Well, this is just the beginning of us seeing the police state. Welcome to the rest of the world!

Somewhere in Tibet... (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811790)

Initiate: *browsing the web* "Wow."

Monk: "Ah, young one, you have made a discovery. From Ah-may-rika."

Initiate: "It's wonderful! But I don't understand."

Monk: "Natalie Portman."

The Zen student was enlightened.

OOps... I trolled slashdot again (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811798)

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extradition (3, Interesting)

crystalplague (547876) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811804)

just remember, if someone violates the laws of another country from their country, the offended country must extradite them in order to prosecute. a lot of times there is too much red tape to make this worthwhile. especially for something as trivial as a web page.

Re:extradition (1)

Lokni (531043) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811911)

yes, but in today's world of diplomacy and news/media how many times does a seemingly trivial occurence snowball and blow up into an item of massive proportions? Diplomacy is the real threat because a politician will extradite just about anybody if it makes his powerful connections in another company happy. Singapore flogging incident sounds like a good example.

Re:extradition (1)

anpe (217106) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811912)

OK, but in Yahoo's case in France, they had interests and representatives in France. So there was no need of extradition

Re:extradition (1)

atheos (192468) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811956)

It's more complicated than this however.
If my ISP thinks there is any legal substance to a complaint from another country, then they will simply
remove the content of my website. In fact, my ISP sucks so bad, they would probably do it anyway without any legal substance. This would save the said offended country legal expenses, and time if they knew that a simple compaint could remove offending information. That my friend, sucks ass.

Re:extradition (2, Insightful)

2Bits (167227) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811969)

just remember, if someone violates the laws of another country from their country, the offended country must extradite them in order to prosecute


No, that only applies to "offended" countries that are strong enough, or have something to leverage. Then the "offending" country may "comply".

A columbian drug dealer who sends drug to the US might be in trouble coz the US government does not like that. A USian traffic weapons (guess where is the source of 50% of world arms trade?) to a poor country is just fine, and in the US, he may be a very respectable business man and a patriot too, as he has contributed to the US economy. And what can the poor country government do, beside being told by the US government to go to hell?

Re:extradition (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811986)

What happens if you unknowingly violated a law in another country, and then decided to visit that country? Look what happened to Dmitry Sklyarov.

DMCA? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811810)

publishing anything on a web-site (and also Usenet) in America to the more restrictive domestic laws of other countries

I would be more afraid of the opposite, like encryption developers from, say, Norway, Australia, Russia or Finland, being applied doses of whoop-ass called DMCA (or perhaps even the far-reaching 'terrorism' laws mr. Asscrotch created)

It could be just fine (2, Interesting)

Oroborus (131587) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811815)

I see this as a potentially positive development. In my view, it will end up like the patent system (not that I'm making any value judgements about the patent office, don't jump on that). Countries will each balance their individual values against others. Just as IBM and HP have numerous conflicting patents, and as long as they're balanced in their infringements nobody has to sue, different countries will balance their regional restrictions (ie, China will allow political discussions, the US will allow communist or anti-US sentiment) and all that will be cut out is the truly universally damaging content. (Child pornography, primarily).

That's just a hope though, realistically it'll probably just be the US throwing it's weight around trying to impose it's views on the world.

Re:It could be just fine (2)

anothy (83176) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811889)

this is an overly-simplistic understanding of what's going on. note that in the U.S., virtually no political speach is illegal (some is, like plots to overthrow the gvt., but very little). it China, all sorts of stuff is prohibited. in germany, pro-Nazi stuff is prohibited. any "compromise" represents a reduction in the fredoms of people in the U.S. - not good for us here. the problem is that in many place, like China, what's valued is the system (current gvt, communism, whatnot); in the U.S. (in theory, anyway) it's the freedoms, valued above the system in which they exist. the US already allows pro-communist sentiment.

Page-lengthening posts? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811816)

^_^

That is what terms of use is for. (2)

www.sorehands.com (142825) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811819)

I don't know if there are any cases that are on point, but you might be able to choose the location by specifying jurisdiction and choice of law as part of the terms of use of the site.


It is highly questionable if it is only a one page site, but if you have it on every page and the other party goes to more than one page, you could argue that they contracted to have it in your chosen jurisdiction.


But even so, if the jurisdiction is improper, you may still have to answer in the improper jurisdiction and file a motion to dismiss there.

Re:That is what terms of use is for. (2, Insightful)

Beryllium Sphere(tm) (193358) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811933)

There's already been a problem within the US. Tennessee used Tennessee state law to prosecute the owners of a porn site in California, on the grounds that since their "content" could be downloaded in Tennessee they were "publishing" it there.

If I were setting up terms of use, I'd ask my lawyer whether they only governed contract disputes. Criminal law could be another kettle of fish. But by now there must be case law to support using "void where prohibited" clauses.

[Note for non-US readers: each state of the US can and does have different laws.]

criminal law (1)

www.sorehands.com (142825) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812035)

Criminal law is a completely different kettle of fish.


But, under civil law one may contract away rights available to them. One can waive rights to make a claim, which is standard on most settlement agreements. One may waive the right to file suit, which is common to many arbitration agreements.

Non-U.S. laws more restrictive? (5, Interesting)

anothy (83176) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811820)

this is slightly off-topic (mod away), but i note the assumption that non-US laws are inherently more restrictive than US laws. this is increasingly not the case. note DMCA and USA-Patriot, among others, and recent high-profile cases of foreign nationals being arested in the U.S. for breaking such laws.
mind you, i think your assumption was true a decade ago, and i'd like to see it be true again...

Re:Non-U.S. laws more restrictive? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811905)

Depends on the non-US country. The Netherlands, probably no. China, yes.

Re:Non-U.S. laws more restrictive? (1)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812001)

I'd like to see it too; but as a wise man once said: "fat fucking chance". :(

content control (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811831)

Any foriegn service provider that allows access to american networks should be responsible.

You've got it the wrong way round. (5, Insightful)

Jens (85040) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811836)

"as it opens up anyone publishing anything on a web-site (and also Usenet) in America to the more restrictive domestic laws of other countries"

This should read "as it opens up anyone publishing anything on a web-site (and also Usenet) to the more restrictive domestic laws of America". See DMCA for example (USA only).

Sigh. Why do so many Americans just blindly assume everyone else is behind. Yes, there are countries for which this is true. But there are also many for which the reverse is true.

So, to be more specific you could kill the "in America" in the sentence above and would even be more true: Also web pages on other countries could be subjected to more restrictive laws in again other countries.

Right? Yeah, I'll stop nitpicking now.

foreign policy (1)

Cruciform (42896) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811837)

I would think that the foreign policy of the country in which the content creator resides would be the biggest threat to you, rather than the laws of the foreign countries themselves.
If you live in a country where the government is happy to let China stamp on your civil rights the way they deal with student uprisings, then you probably want to stick to making Blogs about high school life, but it's all content relevant.
Look at the Yahoo auctions for Nazi memorabilia for example. The US courts knocked down that French injunction eventually.
Unless you're actually violating federal or state/provincial law in the US or Canada, I'm assuming that you're pretty much safe in publishing whatever you want. But step over that line, and you may find that a foreign dictator has some nice pointy bamboo sticks to insert in places you never considered.

Slashdot admits that open source programmers stink (-1)

WeatherTroll (529760) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811839)

OPEN SOURCE PROGRAMMERS STINK

Slashot admits the truth here:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/25/2192 51 &mode=thread

As we already know open source programmers stink, both at their jobs, and in general. Take RMS for instance. He can't get a job as a real programmer so he starts the FSF. He also hasn't taken a bath or shower in over 20 years making him stink in general. Living in a dark cave doesn't help either. I don't want to know what is crawling around in his hair.

I'm sure there are people at your office who are just like RMS if they can hold their jobs. You know they are close because you can smell them. You are spending hours of overtime fixing their code.

For anyone reading this post none of this is a suprise. However, slashdot is a bastion of open source programmers. That is why the code is so bad, and its the only website that you can smell over the internet because it reaks!!!!

What was suprising to me (and to you I'm sure) was that slashdot admitted in the above linked article that open source programmers stink.

I commend slashdot for admitting the brutal yet honest truth.

Re:Slashdot admits that open source programmers st (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811907)

you are clearly mixing open source with free software :-)

Re:Slashdot admits that open source programmers st (1)

anonymous_wombat (532191) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811989)

Don't add water, then it can explode!!!

memory??? (-1)

ClickWir (166927) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811841)

Ok, so now you have to KNOW and understand ALL US laws.... and all forien laws. I can barely tell when I'm speeding or not(joke) and I'm supposed to know if some bloke in Austrailia takes offence to me putting something on my website? Hell with that idea.

CANADA SUCKS btw.

personal, practical experience (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811842)

Does anyone have personal, practical experience of being threatened by foreign governments or government bodies for material put up on the Net?
Yeah, I know a guy who had this problem. Hes name is Sklyarov [freesklyarov.org] .

Cheers...

International law (2, Insightful)

Godeke (32895) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811847)

The question really hinges upon how international treaties pan out. The DMCA was passed to implement an international treaty for enforcing intellectual property, the Hauge Convention. It is an attempt to make everyone subject to everyone else's laws. Of course that is impossible to implement as simply as that - the standards around the world are too varied to be applied directly to everyone as there would be nothing left legal.

So what will happen? Most likely it will continue as it has for years; corporations and well financed individuals will shop for a juridiction that fits their needs and will prey upon those without similar resources. But more excessive legal claims are obviously impossible; for example, a Chinese government monopistic company claiming that Fortune magazine is slandered them or Iran claiming that FOX must stop broadcasting "impure" TV. However, don't expect the individual website to get such consideration, and don't expect the US not to try to bully it around the other way from time to time...

Three words (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811910)

I have but only 3 words for any foreigners who are upset at what I say on the web and want to sue.

Go F*** Yourself

Legal Article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811851)

Let me get this straight. You're writing a legal article. And you're using Slashdot comments as a source? You're also asking anonymously? I've got a personal story you can use as fact: I was held against my will for 17 months in a Chinese forced-labor camp because I created a Jiang Zemin Ate My Balls website in the US and hosted it in the UK and he happened to see it.

OTIII (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811852)

OT III

1. Check for any BTs (E-meter, theta perceptics, intention, pressure areas, telepathy is HOW) on and in:
Body surface (WHERE)
Body inside
In thetan's space (Approx. 40' X 60')
On thetan
2. Run Incident 2, then Incident 1, until BT(s) have gone and are released. Then, check for additional Incidents 1's and 2's until dry (on the meter).
3. Return to Step 2, to find new ones to run. Use ruds while running if necessary. There is an effort to stop and hurry on Incident 1.

4. When complete, exact date and run both of the incidents on self.

5. If a bog, do Millazo Pack. Write down some 'mutual associations'. Re each one on this list, FIND THE INCIDENT THAT MADE THEM ONE, and run that. Then, run OT III, Incident 2 and 1 after that cluster is broken up. Occasionally, BTs will have an incident that made them one other then Incident 2, thus this action.

INCIDENT 2: Dates approx. 75 million years ago, earth years, location, Earth, named TEEGEEACK at that time (meaning planet of sorrow), involved 33 planets of this sector, each with populations of 80 - 200 BILLION PER PLANET. XENU, the ruler, and 'Renegades' decided to solve overpopulation as follows, but was halted and XENU placed in a mountain trap after over 5 years of war.

Incident 2 Patter: DETERMINE IF A LOYAL OFFICER, RESIDENT OF EARTH, or FROM ANOTHER PLANET. If the latter two, start at their being picked up and shot and if from another planet, frozen in an ice cube, transported (flying saucer), taken to mountain, a volcano always, H BOMB EXPLOSION, TERRIFIC WINDS, EFFORT TO ORIENT, MAGNETIC STRIP UP FROM CENTER OF VOLCANO OR DOWN FROM AN AIRPLANE, EFFORT TO GET OFF AND FIND REST OF SELF, PROTEST, BEING PULLED ON STRIP, VISUAL DISPLAY OF INSTRUCTION BY A 'GO TO THE PILOT', WHO SAYS 'HE'S MOCKING IT UP'. There are 26 - 29 days of implanting (the CC and OT II, God and Devil material, reasons for this being done, helicopters, etc.) that need not be run. SOME WERE PACKAGED INTO CLUSTERS in the HAWAII and LOS PALMAS ISLANDS (8 to a cluster). If a loyal officer, the sequence is SURPRISE at being shot, placed at the volcano. Use meter to determine and determine volcano. Watch for earlier beginning (pulled in for a tax audit), run only up to the 'HE'S MOCKING IT UP' as BTs can go into 'free fall', spin and get sick from the 29 days implanting, with pneumonia and death the implanted phenomena of free fall in addition to insomnia. Coltus, the Reigning planet, Hubbard a part of the 'rescuing force that put an end to it'. Don't force or push them off, and answer the BTs questions. There were probably not any good or bad guys in this incident, although Hubbard insists the sector to have been a cultural desert since. Very SP BTs can usually be brought around with adept 2WC, Charm, Ruds, but if not use Power Processing on the rare hard core.

Incident 1: Dates 4 QUADRILLION YEARS AGO (which is 15 zeros or 4,000 trillion years ago).

Incident 1 Patter: LOUD SNAP, WAVES OF LIGHT, HORSES DRAWING CHARIOT RIGHT TO LEFT, CHERUB COMES OUT, BLOWS HORN, COMES CLOSE, SHATTERING SERIES OF SNAPS, CHERUB FADES, RETREATS, BLACK MASS IS DUMPED ON THE THETAN.

Volcano List

HAWAII Pacific Ocean
MT HOOD Pacific NW
MT BAYER Pacific NW
MT RAINIER Washington
MT ETNA Mediterranean
MT ST. HELENS Washington
MT EREBUS Antarctica
MT FUJI Japan
MT EVEREST Himalayas - Nepal & Tibet
MT KILIMANJARO Northeastern Africa
LAS PALMAS Canary Islands off NE
Africa MT SHASTA California
MT VESUVIUS Italy
MT KRAKATOA Indonesia
MT PELEE Martinique
MT MCKINLEY Alaska
Volcanoes existed New Zealand
at these locations Philippines
then, but no Mexico
longer South America
North Dakota
Vermont
Scotland
Iceland

Note: These were the most common locations. 600 other volcanoes did and do exist, which I did not list.

You clear up that a BT is a body thetan, The instructions are self explanatory, Basically, the reason they are doing this is to where they won't be confused with hundreds of different thoughts so that they can have some peace and quiet, and so they won't be other-determined. After they have run all these remnants of folks out by telepathic auditing on them, they attain the state of freedom from overwhelm and a return of full self determinism. One cleans off those 4 areas in the order listed. It is generally underrun, it is rarely overrun. What you have been doing all the way up the Bridge is breaking these clusters apart. With Expanded Dianetics, Grades and all the previous auditing, you have been taking these off. About 1/2 of the BTs come off and leave and go live their own lives by doing the lower Bridge right, and the other 1/2 come off here by doing OT III correctly. So, if you don't do the lower Bridge correctly on someone and they do a real good job on OT III, they will get about 1/2 of it done. It is pretty wild material to run and the gains of it are beyond description. It is not a crazy idea at all. The irony of it is that it happened alot more than once. It is listed as an event that happened 75 million years ago. It probably happened to the preclear dozens of times. So, watch out for your dates.

After that you do not do OT VII, and then put them on OT III again, like the churches do. You do OT IV which is included here. After they have done that they have attained the state of certainty of self as a being and freedom from uncertainty of self.

On OT V they attain the state of freedom from fixated introversion into MEST and gain the ability to refamiliarize as a thetan exterior with the physical universe.

Try Bernard Shifman (1)

JediTrainer (314273) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811867)

Slander, defamation, hate speech, lawsuit threats?

I hear Bernard Shifman [petemoss.com] might have some knowledge pertaining to this...

But is it enforceable... (2, Interesting)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811868)

No. It's not. The simple truth is that if a person in England tries to sue someone in the US of A for slander, (because there the burden of proof is on the defendant) they'd be laughed out of court. people cannot be forced to briung the site offline if they are not in the country that the lawsuit is in, and so the laws are mostly worthless.

I suppose it will take a trial case pursued by the EFF or somebody similar to actually show that the jurisdiction cannot work in this fashion. This will be especially obvious as soon as someone tries to extradite a US citizen to some muslim country where people cannot view "indecently clad" women in pictures, or say things "against Islam." Imagine someone in Afghanistan 6 months ago sueing the Baptist or Catholic or whatever church because their site contained information about Christianity.

hmm... anonymous? (2, Funny)

bbh (210459) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811886)

I'm writing a legal article on jurisdiction and defamation via the web

Bernie again?????

Treason not possible (1)

cheeser (30863) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811888)

I'm just being anal here (and I'm bored at work) but I can't be prosecuted in Libya for treasonous comments I make on a web site in the U.S. Treason is an act against an allegiance and that can only be done to my own gov't. As for slander/libel/whatever else? Let 'em come and get me. Who cares if France gets offended by something I say. I'm not in France so I'm not subject to their laws. Only stupid gov'ts will try to enforce such laws and that includes the U.S.

What *are* the implications? (1)

PeekabooCaribou (544905) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811891)

If I break some Australian law by saying something on my own server, should I really care? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK they have no jurisdiction here at all. Their laws don't apply to me in any way, seeing as I've never been there, don't know anyone there, and for all I know the whole continent is make-believe.

law article (3, Informative)

queequeg1 (180099) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811892)

Check out the following article from the Oregon State bar bulletin. Although it addresses jurisdiction mostly from an intellectual property perspective, many of of the cited cases touch upon the more amorphous concepts involved.

Personal Jurisdiction in the Silicon Forest [osbar.org]

EULA (4, Interesting)

opusbuddy (164089) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811895)

It's simple, really. All I have to do is force entry into my website through a page that requires you to agree to an End User License Agreement, giving you license to use my website.

In using my website, you agree to be bound by the laws of the United States and that you agree to accept any responsibility for any violations of local laws or treaties that using my website may cause. Further, you agree that you will hold the grantor of this license free from any responsibility should you find the material licensed to you to be libelous or in any other way offensive.

This EULA is not transferable.

Blah, blah, blah....

Oh and by the way, IANAL.

Re:EULA (1)

ocelotbob (173602) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812029)

You know, your post was so right on it's damn near depressing. The day is going to come where you're going to have to click through a eula in order to view a web page. Don't like the eula, you're going to have to go home. All it's going to take is a handful of javascript and you're going to see some of the nastiest legalese anywhere.

Goddamn lawyers, why do they have to ruin everything?

Free Speech? Not on Slashdot... (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811906)

[Bad Google Translation]
In OT 3,

OPERATING THETAN section Three

explains Hubbard its cosmology and the characteristics of the ' Body Thetane '. This summary was written by Karin Spaink on the basis the complete text of OT III on advice of their lawyer, in order to avoid injuries of copyright as a precaution and to offer Scientology sect and/or the RTC no possibility for the complaint. The aforementioned side numbering refers to OT 3 version of the ' Fishman affidavit '.

In addition of K.Spainks to assist in the understanding additional explanations from different sources are ordered to English original text here.
The aforementioned lexical terms come out:

Technical term listing in the appendix too
L.Ron Hubbard
The science of surviving
Copenhagen 1983

The following cutout from OT 3 is completely quoted in Margery Wakefield's book ' The Road ton Xenu ' in chapter 13, and I assume that this is likewise in other books and articles the case. It arrange a fine connection for my summary and my for comments:

The head of of the galactic one federation (76 planets over from here visible larger stars) (based before 95'000'000 years, very much Science Fiction) population of over (250 billion or so per planet, 178 billion on the average) solved by Massenimplantierung. It arranged that the people were brought after Teegeeack (earth) and brought at the most important volcanos to h-bombs on (event II), then those from the Pacific areas in boxes after Hawaii were brought and those from the Atlantic areas after Palmas read and there packed together.

Its name was Xenu. It used Abtruennige. Different misleading information obtain Schaltkreisen etc. brought into the implants.

After it had completed its crime, it loyale officers (opposite the people) caught after six years fight and put it into an electronic trap in a mountain where it still are. ' you ' went. The place (Konfoederation) since that time was a desert. The duration and brutality of all that were so large that this Konfoederation recovered never more. The implant is for killing (by pneumonia etc..) from those computes, which try to eliminate it. By of me ' Tech ' developed can this susceptibility be waived.

One can die by the implant ' freilaufen' and, it is that is reached to define it exactly. A free running (independently, away and away) lasts to for a long time, prevents the sleep etc. and one dies. They must be careful and only event I and II as given to be worked on and everywhere not rooted and a locking of a Thetans at a time miss.

In December 1967 I could do someone, which had to make a crucial step. I made it and emerge very fastened however living again. Possibly the none one the this in 75'000'000 years ever did. I have now all information, but only ordered the here is necessary.

A body consists those of a quantity of individual Thetane sticks together or to the body holds on.

Having to sweep these away by one event II and event I carries out. It is a long-continuous work, which requires care, patience and good Auditing. You are nature the this carry out. They react like each Preclear. Some more violently, others weakly.

Thetane believed that they were all the same. That is the original mistake. Much luck.

Circuit ("circuit"): a part of the bank of a person, who behaves in such a way, as if it is one of it detached person or thing, and either to the person speaks or from own drive becomes active and, if it is strong enough, while its duration of effect even control of the person can take over.

Gerald Armstrong, a former Scientologe the discovered that many of Hubbard's were wrong documents and statements, described the group of Xenu in a court paper why so strictly protected.
"in Scientology sect it is told to the people that if they read also only parts of history before them step around step all lower stages of Scientology sect went through (with costs of ten thousands of dollars), then their Unterbewusstsein are overstimulated, and they become " freeweel (free-runs)"..." Armstrong said, "its spirit except control will turn out, it will not become to be not able eat or sleep and it become to die." A note of Hubbard explains that of it also pneumonia can result. Because the implants are computed to kill everyone by pneumonia try it to dissolve - so similarly the curse of the Pharaonen. Therefore only correctly used training would be successful, noted Hubbard.
Armstrong told also that the Xenu Story was identical to the film script for ' Revolt into the of star ', a film written from Hubbard. The film could not be financed and was therefore never realized.

(pages 76-77)
There and discuss, and perhaps even still more things are many things to analyze here some explanations need before we at all to understand begin which Hubbard in this and pushed bitebite bites rather appearing strange say.

I believe that it is helpful, if we explain first some further faith principles of Scientology sect before we start. Otherwise we can begin few with the quotations.

Jon Atack, which was once member of Scientology sect and actually OT completed 3 before he an extremely effective critic of the cult became, has us a very useful analysis mediated: ' OT 3 rewritten for beginners ' . Here is which Jon says:

Scientologen believe that they reinkarnierten from Vorzeiten became. They believe that many inter+planetary civilizations existed. The spirit was renamed by Hubbard in ' Thetan '. Before beginning already the Thetane, everything existed to the time from each other separately (Thetane did not become to create, them existed always, already before erschaffung of the time). With the erschaffung of energy and subject the Thetane became gradually imprisoned. The hauptsaechlichste method of catching is based on ' Implantierung ' , the Thetan is hypnotisiert and it it positive thoughts entered those its power to limit. In accordance with Hubbard this process was in this universe since four quadrillionen years in the course (4'000'000'000'000'000; rather as only the 8-20'000'000 represented of astrophysicists). Nevertheless, this is only a universe in a series of different. Scientologen try to recover the power of the Thetane as it the implants get rid of and by use of twisting the uebersinnliche perception and increase ability. The goal of these procedures is a ' operating Thetan ' - a nature that of its physical body to act independently can cause and alone by pure will power physical events can. The ' operating Thetan ' would be able to drive diseases and psychological disturbances out with others by its will.

After we know this now, we can again go through everything. Thus history begins:

The head of of the galactic one federation (76 planets over from here visible larger stars) (based before 95'000'000 years, very much Science Fiction) population of over (250 billion or so per planet, 178 billion on the average) solved by Massenimplantierung. It arranged that the people were brought after Teegeeack (earth) and brought at the most important volcanos to h-bombs on (event II), then those from the Pacific areas in boxes after Hawaii were brought and those from the Atlantic areas after Palmas read and there packed together.

(page 77)
Hubbard believed in different Universien, an idea in Sci Fi under the designation ' parallel the Universien ' admits became. Hubbard presupposes that 95 million years ago in our individual universe a galactic federation was created. You belonged, in accordance with him, to 76 planets. Surely more largely than the united nations and indeed ' very much Science Fiction '.

In accordance with Hubbard the earth was once part of this federation. She suffered from bad population of over, a means of 178 of billion people per planet is indeed rather overcrowded. The head of the federation, whose name is revealed later than ' Xenu ', even if some people accept that it ' Xemu ' are called (Hubbard's handwriting is spiderful and therefore easily wrongly to read), seized drakonische measures around the number of the inhabitants to reduce. Xenu transported a quantity of them on earth, at that time as ' Teegeeack ' mentioned. After transport Xenu used hydrogen bombs at different volcanos around these people thereby to destroy. Indeed very effectively! Then it drove its soul/spirit or ' Thetane ' away with the evacuation and ' implantierte ' these. This episode - transport, bombarding, which Implantieren - was called of Hubbard ' event II '.

In the other Universien other things occurred. All Thetane on this planet and on twenty-in stars which were obvious has event II and ' R6 ' together. Hubbard refers to these twenty-two planets as ' the Konfoederation '.

It may be worth mentioning here that the Signete of the ' Sea Org ' shows twenty-two stars. The number of the stars is surely not coincidental: the Signet a symbol of these Konfoederation to be intended obvious the event II to suffer had.

The other planets in the galactic federation - were their seventy-six, says Hubbard - have probably their own version of event II. and other Universien - they remember that Hubbard believed in parallel Universien - probably again different versions of event II will have. But which all Universien has together, in accordance with Hubbard, event is I . It describes it in some few lines and thought it not much obvious over the affair, or perhaps it did not dare to do it ' a crucial step ' in this direction. Hubbard says neither like for a long time this event lasted nor designates it the place of the happening. It is likewise amazingly silent over the happening between the events I and II, if one may say in such a way.

Event I
That happens time-purely when starting (before 4 quadrillionen years).
LAUTER KNALL
LICHTWELLEN
WAGEN KOMMT HERAUS, DREHT SICH NACH RECHTS UND LINKS
CHERUB KOMMT HERAUS
HORN BLäST, KOMMT NäHER
ENTSETZLICHE SERIE VON KNALLEN
CHERUB VERSCHWINDET (ZIEHT SICH ZURüCK)
FINSTERNIS UMHüLLT DEN THETAN

(Seiten 99-100)
Danach zu urteilen, glaube ich, dass Hubbard weder die Big Bang Theorie noch die eines sich ausdehnenden Universum in seiner privaten Kosmologie unterstützte, obschon beide mehr Sinn machen als die seine. Wir wollen diese hier als 'Knallgeschichte' bezeichnen. Wir haben hier einen unentschlossenen Cherub, der nicht weiss ob sich nach links oder nach rechts wenden soll und der zweimal herauskommt ohne sich jedoch je zurückgezogen zu haben; und wir haben Hörner. Ein wenig engelhaft für jemand, der wie wir später sehen werden, glaubte dass Christus ein Implantat war.

Wir wollen uns nun jedoch Ereignis II zuwenden, welches sich angeblich vor 75 Millionen Jahren abspielte und auf der Erde stattfand:

Ereignis II dauerte über 36 Tage. Die Gefangennahme auf anderen Planeten geschah Wochen oder Monate vor dem Implantieren. Diejenigen auf Teegeeack (Erde) wurden sogleich ausgelöscht mit Ausnahme der loyalen Offiziere welche (kurz vor der Explosion auf der Erde) abgezogen wurden.

(Seite 79)
Xenu fing also jedermann der nicht auf der Erde wohnte, hielt sie gefangen für einige Wochen oder manchmal auch Monate, und dann transportierte er sie auf die Erde und mischte sie mit dem Rest, das heisst mit den dort lebenden Leuten. Dann fuhr er weiter mit dem Atomisieren der Menge. Nur einige wenige loyale Offiziere entkamen diesem riesigen Bombardement mit H-Bomben. Nach diesem Auszug zu urteilen, so könnte es scheinen dass Hubbard beschwört, loyale Offiziere wären nur auf der Erde zu finden. Das ist weltfremd, glaube ich... Ich wundere mich auch wohin sie gingen?

Ereignis II ist wird detaillierter beschrieben. Hier ist die 'Sequenz':

- H-BOMBE AUF VULKAN FALLEN GELASSEN
- EXPLOSION
- FüRCHTERLICHE WINDE
- THETAN BEWEGTE SICH üBER GIPFEL
- ELEKTRONISCHES BAND KAM HOCH
- ER BLIEB AN IHM HäNGEN
- ES WURDE DANN HINAB GEZOGEN UND ER WURDE (ALS TEIL EINER GRUPPE) MIT R6 IMPLANTIERT
- BILD EINES PILOTEN DER SAGT DASS DIES NUR TäUSCHUNG SEI

(Seite 99)
Jedes Teilchen ist geheimnisvoll, aber er liefert wenigstens genauere Einzelheiten überall in OT 3. Das Teilchen über den Thetan, die Seele oder der Geist eines ausatomisierten Typen, der an einem elektronischen Band hängenbleibt wiederspiegelt sicherlich Margery Wakefield's Vergleich von Thetanen mit Insekten: als sie das erste Mal von Body Thetanen hörte, sagte sie dass das für sie wie Fliegen klang. Auf diese Beschreibung bezogen stimme auch ich für Fliegen.

Eine weitere Feinheit ist der erwähnte Pilot im letzten Teil der Sequenz. Klingt wie das Ende eines schlechten Horrorfilms: Es war ja alles nur ein Traum... Aber obwohl 'sich etwas vortäuschen' gewöhnlich 'sich etwas vorstellen' bedeutet, in der Scieno-Sprache bedeutet es mehr als ein mentales Bild; es ist vermutlich ein selbst-erschaffenes Objekt; es ist eine Sache die man sein kann. Operierende Thetane sind, wiederum vermutlich, fähig sich ein Bild vorzustellen das Dimensionen und Ort hat in Raum und Zeit.

Nach dem Bombardieren wurden die Thetane 'implantiert'. Hubbard beschreibt die 'Sequenz' des 'implantierens' folgendermassen:

(1) Gefangennahme (Erschossenwerden),
(2) Einfrieren,
(3) Transport nach Teegeeack (manchmal über eine Relaisstation),
(4) Plaziertwerden nahe einem Vulkan,
(5) Beginn des Implantierens bis zum 'der Pilot'
(6) verschiedene Bildfolgen,
(7) die '7s'und C.C. und OT II Material,
(8) 36 Tage Bildimplantierungen was eine gewaltige Reihe an Material und drei Erlärungen für das Bombardieren ergibt,
(9) Transport nach Hawaii oder Las Palmas um in Gruppen gepackt zu werden,
Die Bilder enthalten Gott, den Teufel, Engel, Science Fiction, Theater, Helikopter, ein konstantes Drehen, ein sich drehender Tänzer, Züge und verschiedene Szenen wie im modernen England. Sie nennen es, es ist in diesem Implantat - wir sagen es ist das vollständige 'R6'.

(Seite 80)
Jon Atack bietet mehr Details als ich in der Fishman-Version von OT 3 finden konnte. Zum Beispiel erklärt er, wie die Thetane gemäss Hubbard transportiert wurden:

Die Leute wurden umgebracht und die Thetane (oder Geister) eingesammelt, in einem Gemisch von Glykol und Alkohol eingefroren und zur Erde gebracht wo man sie nahe an den Vulkanen niederlegte, welche mit Wasserstoffbomben zur Explosion gebracht wurden. Die Thetane wurden von 'elektronischen Bändern' eingefangen, in Gruppen zusammengepackt und während 36 Tagen implantiert um sie unterwürfig und entscheidungsunfähig zurückzulassen.

Was also passierte ist, dass sie gefangen, transportiert, atomisiert, implantiert wurden bis zu einem gewissen Punkt (der Pilot sagte, dass alles nur vorgetäuscht sei) und dann mit Bildern gefüttert wurden. Sie wurden auch '7s' ausgeliefert (eine Sammlung vermuteter Implantate, und bei meinem Leben, ich weiss nicht welche; ich weiss auch nicht ob Hubbard dies wirklich wusste. Er beschreibt sie nicht weiter in OT 3). 'C.C.' ist der Clearing Course, der Kurs den Scientologen abgeschlossen haben müssen bevor sie zu den OT's zugelassen werden. Es erscheint mir eher irritierend wenn Hubbard sagt, dass ihnen auch OT 2 zugeführt wurde: hier beginnt irgendwie ein Zirkelschluss. Ich glaube es ist für Scientologen hilfreich sich auf diese armen gefangenen handlungsunfähigen Thetane beziehen zu können: nach alldem heisst das, dass sie sich in ihren Studien am selben Punkt befinden. Nachdem ihnen OT 2 zugeführt wurde ist es erneut Zeit für Filme. Sechunddreissig Tage, nicht weniger! Dann werden sie erneut transportiert und den Vulkanen ausgeliefert.

Befremdend ist dabei auch, dass in der eigentlichen Beschreibung von Ereignis II die Thetane implantiert werden bevor sie diesem Piloten begegnen, der sagt dass alles nur vorgetäuscht sei; aber während diesem Implantieren werden sie 'bis zum Piloten implantiert'. Hier sind Spiegel in Spiegeln ... Der Kern des Implantierens sind, nach Hubbard, Bilder von Theatern, Eisenbahnzügen, Helikoptern und modernem Leben in England. Bilder von Gott und dem Teufel sind Teil davon, sagt hier Hubbard. Das ist natürlich eine höchst unangenehme Stellungnahme für Anhänger des Christentums. Anderswo lässt Hubbard verlauten, dass auch Christus Teil des Implanats war.

'R6' ist die Abkürzung für 'reactive mind'(Unterbewusstsein), insbesondere alles auf das Implantat bezogene während OT 3. Der 'reactive mind' wird ebenfalls als 'bank' erwähnt (Kurz für: memory bank).

Hubbard stellt wiederholt fest dass dies alles Tatsache ist. Tatsache, nicht erdichtet. Aber er zieht es offensichtlich vor, einige nackte Tatsachen nicht zu beachten, und seine Geschichte steht zum Beispiel in offensichtlichem Widerspruch zur Geologie. Mit den Worten von Jon Atack:

OT 3 steht natürlich erheblich im Widerspruch zur konventionellen Geologie. Geologen halten fest, dass nahezu alle der von Hubbard aufgezählten Vulkane sowie Hawaii und Las Palmas vor viel weniger als 75 Millionen Jahren entstanden. Und logisch auf den Punkt gebracht erscheint es seltsam, dass keiner von diesen Vulkanen je durch die Explosion von Wasserstoffbomben beschädigt wurde.

Eine von diesen wissenschaftlichen Widerlegungen können sie auf meiner Homepage finden:
Peter Fordes 'Scientific Scrutiny of OT 3'.
Hubbard's Tatsachen fallen bei der Astrophysik durch: unser Universum ist viel jünger als er es glaubte. Damit sind sie gut beraten, wenn sie Hubbard's Erzählungen eher für Dichtung halten als für Tatsachen.

Es gibt einen weiteren verwirrenden Paragraphen:

Sein Name war Xenu. Er gebrauchte Abtrünnige. Verschiedene irreführende Informationen wurden vermittelst Schaltkreisen usw. in die Implantate eingebracht.

(Seite 76)
Aha, hier haben wir das erste Vorkommen des Namens von dem Biest, manchmal auch erwähnt als 'the Dark Prince': Xenu. Der Name 'Xenu' wird von den meisten Scientologen gemieden: sie wollen ihn nicht aussprechen und versuchen zu vermeiden, dass andere ihn lesen. (Es gibt ein Typ auf a.r.s, der jedesmal sorgfältig das 'Xenu' in der Adresse von Steven Fishman's Account abändert wenn er ihm antwortet: er schreibt stattdessen 'zenu@ix.netcom.com'. In der Tat doch eher lächerlich.) Oder Scientologen geben vor, nie etwas von Xenu gehört zu haben, an ihrem Glauben festhaltend dass OT 3 sehr geheim ist und weder offengelegt noch diskutiert werden soll mit wem auch immer.

So bedient sich Xenu Abtrünniger um seinen teuflischen Plan auszuführen. Aber Abtrünnige von wem? Xenu war doch der Führer der Galaktischen Föderation, gemäss Ron, oder etwa doch nicht? Falls sie also Abtrünnige waren, würden wir kaum erwarten dass sie mit Xenu komplottieren, doch wohl eher gegen ihn. Das macht keinen Sinn. Sogar Fiction braucht einen zusammenhängenden Plan und sollte nicht an verpfuschten Details scheitern.

Der nächste Satz handelt vom Inhalt des 'Implantats'. Laut Hubbard sind Implantate 'falsche Erinnerungen', eine Art von nachhypnotischer Suggestion. Hier beschreibt er sie als 'irreführende Informationen'. Hubbard erklärt, dass Xenu und seine Abtünnigen 'Schaltkreise' benutzten um diese irreführenden Informationen anzubringen. Beschämenderweise gibt er keine weiteren Details. Er war doch ein Sci-Fi Autor, oder etwa nicht? Dann hätte er doch sicherlich in der Lage sein müssen uns dazu irgendetwas aufzutischen. Ich kann nicht weiterhelfen, denke aber an den Film von 'Johnnie Mnemonic and his memory bank'...

Nachdem er sein Verbrechen vollendet hatte, fingen ihn loyale Offiziere (gegenüber dem Volk) nach sechs Jahren Kampf und steckten ihn in eine elektronische Falle in einem Berg wo er immer noch ist. 'Sie' sind gegangen. Der Ort (Konföderation) war seither eine Wüste. Die Dauer und Brutalität von all dem war so gross, dass sich diese Konföderation niemehr erholte. Das Implantat ist zum Töten (durch Lungenentzündung usw.) von denjenigen berechnet, die es zu beseitigen versuchen. Durch die von mir entwickelte 'Tech' kann diese Anfälligkeit aufgehoben werden.

(Seite 76)
Loyale Offiziere - das heisst: loyal zum Volk, aber ich denke von Xenu's Standpunkt gesehen haben wir hier die echten Abtrünnigen, in Anbetracht dessen was nun geschieht - einige Offiziere fangen Xenu nach seiner schrecklichen Untat. Es war kein leichter Fang: es brauchte sechs Jahre Kampf. Diese Offiziere fuhren fort mit dem Einsperren von Xenu in einer Falle in einem Berg auf einem der Planeten der Föderation. Hubbard glaubt, dass Xenu immer noch dort ist, vermutlich lebendig. Gemäss Hubbard hat der Ort dieser Ereignisse schwer gelitten und ist immer noch abgesperrt.
Hubbard wendet sich nun dem Implantat zu. Es ist angeblich tötlich: 'berechnet zum Töten (durch Lungenentzündung usw.)', aber schnell versichert er seinen Lesern, dass er selbst die 'Tech' entwickelt hat um sich damit zu befassen und das Implantat harmlos zu machen.

Man kann durch das Implantat 'freilaufen' und dabei umkommen, es sei denn dass erreicht wird, es genau abzugrenzen. Ein Freilaufen (selbständig, fort und fort) dauert zu lange, verhindert den Schlaf usw. und man stirbt. Sie müssen vorsichtig sein und nur Ereignis I und II wie vorgegeben bearbeiten und nicht überall herumwühlen und dabei das Abschliessen eines Thetans zu einer Zeit verfehlen.

(Seiten 76-77)
Nun wird es kompliziert. Bis jetzt war dies eine nette Sci-Fi Geschichte in der böse Prinzen auftraten, aber nun werden wir in Scienogeschwätz verwickelt: es folgt nun viel Kauderwelsch. Hubbard erklärt hier seinen Anhängern, wie sie die Implantate behandeln sollen, die durch die Ereignissen I und II in ihnen eingebracht wurden. Erinnern sie sich, Scientologen 'run' Dinge. Sie vollziehen zum Beispiel eine Routine oder ein Verfahren. 'Running' heisst: eine Erinnerung durchgehen oder ein Audit Verfahren durchführen. Man kann auch etwas 'overrun', indem eine Routine oder ein Verfahren über das Ende eines Auditings hinaus weiterläuft. Einfach ausgedrückt: wenn ein 'overrun' auftritt, haben sie verpasst rechtzeitig aufzuhören. Ich nehme an, dass 'auto-running' das selbständige Starten einer Routine oder eines Verfahrens bedeutet und ununterbrochen weiterläuft. 'Freilauf' muss 'endlosem im Kreislaufen' entsprechen. Hubbard glaubt, dass eine Person daran sterben kann.

Aber was bedeutet dies: 'das Abschliessen eines Thetans zu einer Zeit verfehlen'? Ich nehme an, dass es sich um einen Body Thetan handelt. Hier können wir Hilfe gebrauchen von Jon:

In OT 3 findet das Individuum 'Body Thetane' indem es jedes Gefühl von Bedrückung oder Masse in ihrem bzw. seinem Körper ausfindig macht. Diese werden 'telepathisch' als 'Gruppen' angesprochen und durch das diese Gruppen bildende Ereignis vor 75 Millionen Jahren mitgenommen. Ist dies einmal getan, dann sollten die einzelnen Body Thetane verfügbar sein, die entweder durch daselbe Ereignis oder durch das Ereignis I mitgenommen werden. (...) Nach OT 3 ist tatsächlich jedermann auf der Erde eine Ansammlung von solchen Gruppen (Hubbard sagt, dass jede Person die OT 3 vollzieht, hunderte von Body Thetanen finden wird - viele Opfer dieses Kurses glauben an Millionen).

Danke Jon! Es ist also notwendig, alle seine Body Thetane durch eines dieser Ereignisse mitzunehmen, einer nach dem andern. Klingt tatsächlich nach einer Menge Arbeit.

Im Dezember 1967 kannte ich jemand, der einen entscheidenden Schritt zu machen hatte. Ich machte ihn und tauche sehr angeschlagen aber lebend wieder auf. Möglicherweise der Einzige der dies in 75'000'000 Jahren je tat. Ich habe nun alle Informationen, aber nur das hier gebotene ist notwendig.

(Seite 77)
Auweia! Hubbard tauchte geradewegs in das Implantat! Der Erste der dies seit 75 Millionen Jahren tat! So eine Schande, dass er nicht 'alle Informationen' weitergibt, sondern vor uns zurückhält. Nun ist er tot und wir werden nie alle Details seiner Weltraumseifenoper erfahren. Nun gut, dafür kommt nun wieder 'Star Wars' am TV. Wenigstens klärt uns Hubbard gnädigst über seine Body Thetane auf:

Ein Körper besteht aus einer Menge einzelner Thetane die aneinander haften oder sich am Körper festhalten.

(Seite 77)
Wir sind also gemacht aus dieser 'Masse einzelner Thetane' die in uns stecken. Und sie können auch Gruppen bilden! 'Ein Cluster ist eine Gruppe von Body Thetanen, zusammengedrängt oder zusammengehalten durch irgendeine gemeinsame schlechte Erfahrungen' las ich mal irgendwo. Ich wette dass die gemeinsame schlechte Erfahrung entweder Ereignis I oder Ereignis II ist.

Man muss diese wegfegen indem man Ereignis II und Ereignis I vollzieht. Es ist eine langandauernde Arbeit, die Sorgfalt, Geduld und gutes Auditing verlangt. Ihr seid Wesen die dies vollziehen. Sie reagieren wie jeder Preclear. Einige heftiger, andere schwach.

(Seite 77)
Haben sie gesehen? Ich hatte recht. Aber 'vollziehende Wesen'? Ich vermute, es ist dies das Befolgen von Vorgängen die den bei Preclears benutzten nicht unähnlich sind wenn diese ein 'Engramm vollziehen', mit dem Unterschied, dass sie nun 'Body Thetane vollziehen'. Und der Body Thetan benimmt sich wie Preclears. Hmm, muss er etwa auch 'Statistiken' erstellen?

Thetane glaubten, dass sie alle gleich seien. Das ist der ursprüngliche Irrtum.
Viel Glück.

(Seite 77)
'Ursprünglicher Irrtum' klingt ähnlich wie 'Erbsünde'. Und diese Scientologen glauben das alles? Hoppla, danke für die guten Wünsche. Ich denke, diese werden die Scientologen nötig haben, die gerade mit OT 3 beginnen und nun all das gelesen haben. Einige von ihnen werden von echtem Schreck erfasst. Und was geschieht genau mit dem Body Thetan wenn sie ihn los sind? Befällt er nun jemand anders? Nein, machen sie nicht, sagt Hubbard. Es wird etwas weiter im Text erläutert.

Body Thetane sind eben Thetane. Wenn sie einen los werden geht er weg und spaziert möglicherweise herum, schnappt sich einen Körper oder bewundert Gänseblümchen. Er ist in der Tat eine Art 'gecleartes' Wesen. Er wird es nicht verfehlen bei Möglichkeit, wenn nicht plötzlich, viele Fähigkeiten wiedergewinnen. Viele schliefen in den letzten 75 Millionen Jahren. Ein Body Thetan spricht auf jedes Verfahren an auf das auch jeder Thetan reagiert.

(Seite 78)
Viele Body Thetane 'schliefen in den letzten 75 Millionen Jahren'? Sie übertreffen damit ganz sicher 'Dornröschen'! Und wenn der Scientologe sich selber von so einem Body Thetan befreit hat, dann können diese kleinen Dinger sich selbst einen Körper schnappen. Sie lieben auch Gänseblümchen! Ich wundere mich wohin all die Sci-Fi und der Horror verschwunden sind.

Die Scientologen müssen nun alle diese Body Thetane auditieren, das heisst: sie durch Ereignis II und vielleicht auch I führen. Dann werden sie weg sein. Jeder Body Thetan muss einzeln bearbeitet werden. Ich konnte keine Angabe für ihre genaue Zahl finden. Es können hunderte, jedoch auch mehr oder weniger sein. Und wenn sie überhaupt keine finden, sagt Hubbard, dann müssen sie einige Grundkurse erneut absolvieren und möglicherweise einen 'Review' beantragen. Das bedeutet ein tiefschürfendes Gespräch mit seinem Supervisor, denn keine Body Thetane zu finden steht ausser Frage.

In einem Kapitel genannt 'The Basic on BT's', fährt Hubbard fort zu erklären, dass Body Thetane die Tendenz zum Zusammenhaften haben. Sie bilden 'Gruppen' beim Berühren und sie bewahren ein Bild dieser Begegnung auf und mit diesem werden dann wieder weitere Body Thetane angelockt. (Das erinnert an das Märchen in dem ein Knabe mit einem Schwan vorkommt, jedermann wollte den Schwan berühren und wenn dies gelang blieben sie kleben und konnten sich nicht mehr lösen. Nachdem der erste klebte, versuchte ihn der nächste loszureissen und blieb selbst kleben und so weiter. Hubbard's Geschichte erinnert an diese Erzählung.) Hubbard vollzieht dann eine komplizierte Wendung in dem er die Berührung und das Bild davon erörtert:

Somit erhalten wir die Vorstellung eines 'schwarzen Theta Body'. Dieser wird der gegenwärtige BT sein, der in einem Thetan mit Bildern von BTs steckt die wiederum an einem Thetan haften.

(Seite 81)
Die Lösung von diesem verwirrten Gewebe von festhaftenden Body Thetanen und Bildern von in Thetanen steckenden Thetanen ist der Versuch, das erste Ereignis oder 'Bild' einer solchen Begegnung oder eines solchen Zusammenstosses aufzuspüren und von dort aus zu bearbeiten.

Man muss dazu die Gruppen auflösen. Gruppen stammen gewöhnlich vom Ereignis II (man ist nie ganz sicher, sie können auch auf Ereignis I zurückgehen). Die wirklich grossen im Ereignis II gebildeten Gruppen haben auch Hierarchien unter den teilhabenden Body Thetanen:

Ereignis II bildet manchmal riesige Gruppen. In solchen gibt es einen Anführer, einen Stellvertreter und verschiedene (acht bis achtzehn) mehr.

(Seite 83)
Es gibt leider keinen Hinweis auf die Funktion dieser Führerschaft und der Stellvertetung. Nach alledem, sie sind eklige implantierte kleine Bastarde. Irgendwie erscheint es auch normal, dass es Gruppen gibt die aus anderen hervorgingen.

Beim Bearbeiten einer Gruppe finden sie wahrscheinlich, dass diese aus anderen früheren Gruppen hervorging.

(Seite 90)
Und wie löst man nun eine Gruppe auf? Nehmen sie diese durch Ereignis II und dann wird sie sich auflösen, so dass sie die individuellen Body Thetane ansprechen können. Wie früher schon erwähnt, es wartet hier eine Menge Arbeit.

Eine andere Komplikation ist, dass es manchmal scheinen kann dass der Body Thetan nicht weg ist, aber er narrt sie. Er ist in der Tat gegangen. Er hat nur seine Spur hinterlassen und was sie zu auditieren versuchen ist nicht die Sache selbst:

Thetane im Körper können täuschend das Bild von anderen Thetanen nachahmen. Daher finden sie möglicherweise, dass der Thetan, der eben wegging scheinbar immer noch da ist, weil ein Bild zurückblieb.

(Seite 85)
Dies mag ein schmutziger Trick sein, aber sie können von Schlimmerem betroffen werden:

Einige Body Thetane sind unterdrückerisch. Ein Unterdrücker ist ausserhalb 'Valenz' in R6. Er ist in Ereignis I nahezu immer in 'Valenz'.

Valenz: eine falsche oder wahre Persönlichkeit. Der Preclear hat seine eigene Valenz. Ausserdem stehen ihm die Valenzen all jener Personen zur Verfügung, die in seinen Engrammen auftauchen.
In seiner eigenen Valenz: wenn der Preclear sich in seiner eigenen Valenz befindet, so bedeutet dies, dass er sich in sich selbst befindet.

(Seite 78)
Unterdrückerische Body Thetane! Hätten sie wohl kaum erwartet. Hubbard sieht überall Unterdrücker. Was wollen sie mit ihnen machen? Sie zur 'Ethik' schicken? Von Scientology ausschliessen? Sie dann mit 'fair game' misshandeln?

Was ist aber ein unterdrückerischer Body Thetan? In der Scieno-Sprache bedeutet 'Valenz' eine angenommene Persönlichkeit, 'ausserhalb Valenz' demzufolge als jemand anderer aufzutreten, anders gesagen betrügen . Wenn also Hubbard sagt ein Body Thetan in R6 sei 'ausserhalb Valenz' - R6 ist das Implantat von Ereignis II - meint er vermutlich, dass diese besonderen Body Thetane vortäuschen beim Bombardieren verbunden worden zu sein, während sie tatsächlich bei den Cherubims und der 'Knallgeschichte' verbunden wurden. Die kleinen Witzbolde!

Wenn man es nach Hubbard aus eigener Kraft fertigbringt sich aller Body Thetane zu entledigen, dann wird man fähig sein, bei vollem Wahrnehmungsvermögen sich ausserhalb seines Körpers aufzuhalten, man kann aus seinem Körper ausfahren und sich frei durch das Universum bewegen. Hubbard sagt es so:

OT III ist eine wesentliche Stufe. Man tritt ihr gegenüber und führt sie aus. Wenn er es wirklich schafft übersteigt die Belohnung von OT III und OT IV die begeisterndsten Träume.

(Seite 93) Für mich ist das alles nicht im geringsten begeisternd. Höchstens ziemlich verrückt.

Copyright der Originalversion: Karin Spaink, Februar 1996
Die Zitate stammen von L. Ron Hubbard, OT III, wie angeführt in der 'Fishman Affidavid'
(US District Court, Central District of California, CV 91-6426 HLH Tx)

| http://www.charlies-playhouse.ch |
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Defamation and Free Speech (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811928)

When taken individually, they are very boring. But I am imagining a beowulf cluster of these two unlikely items, together in the same cluster, and it is making me laugh!

Tee Hee!
Imagine it!

Oh! But the children! (3, Insightful)

gandalf_grey (93942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811929)

This "think of the children" attitude will be the end of all that is good and rightous with the internet. No, something is published on the server. If other countries don't want the content, or think their citizens are not intelligent enough to make their own decisions... then it's up to that country to block access if they so choose (or get off the net entirely).

I realize this may seem extreme/rude/harsh to some... however, nobody can forecast the laws that another country may decide to introduce. The web is open and free, and to be of any use it must continue to remain so. Like radio or telivision... if you don't like it, change the channel.

Are they nuts? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811932)

This is like publishing a book in the US, then it gets shipped to Germany. It gets read in Germany, but obviously didn't get published there!

Reverse globisation effect? (1)

Empty Sands (6814) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811935)

I wonder if this will have a reverse globalisation effect. Where people are afraid to travel not knowing if their actions - legal in their home country, are judged illegal and actionable as soon as they enter any other given country.

Travelling to the UK to see some relatives? Land at Healthrow and expect to get put into jail for some comment in a mailing list posted several years ago?

Nah ... it's not like it hasn't happened already.

geolocation is a tool (2, Insightful)

reverse flow reactor (316530) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811940)

geolocation is a tool, and has not inherent good or evil in it. It can be USED in good or bad ways.

Say I were to use it to differentiate prices: people buying books who are coming from one state pay price $X, people coming from another state pay price $Y. Not because of different shipping costs (which may be equal), but because market research has told me that people from state X are willing to pay me more money for the the product.

Or it can be used to block access to material (iCraveTV) - only people from state X are allowed to see this.

Or it can be used in a good way. Think caching servers. If there is a cache server for a major website in every high usage area so that server response times are faster and overall network traffic is lower. However, a lot of sites do this already (fist page: choose your location server).

What is important is that geolocation is used in a good way, improving the lives of citizens, and not restricting what they can and cannot see/hear/know about when that information may be important to them.

So it can behave like many tools. With this hammer, I can build you a house (good) or hit you on the head (bad). With this international treaty, we can (re)build nations in peace, or we can use it to restrict and isolate a nation that does not see things from the true (read: MY) point of view.

So does anyone have any ideas about a good international treaty that can be used to help citizens of all countries? Maybe an extension to the UN Charter of Human Rights [un.org] .

Re:geolocation is a tool (2, Interesting)

3seas (184403) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812004)

The Universal Law

Preamble

The purpose of human life is to prosper and live happily. The function of society is to guarantee those conditions that allow all individuals to fulfill their purpose. Those conditions can be guaranteed through a constitution that forbids the use of initiatory force or coercion by any person or group against any individual:

The Constitution

Article 1: No person, group of persons, or government may initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against any individual's self or property.

Article 2: Force may be morally and legally used only in defense against those who violate Article 1.

Article 3: No exceptions shall ever exist to Articles 1 and 2.

So long as.... (2)

3seas (184403) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811946)

So long as the sentencing against MS anti-trust is the curve we would be being sentenced on,.....

Nothing to be at all concerned about!

There was that Demon/DeCSS thing a while ago... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811963)

Mad Jack Valenti thought American laws applied everywhere and, worryingly, Demon (an old and supposedly wise UK ISP) took his word for it until someone jogged their memories on primary school geography.

NTK summarised [ntk.net] it and Cryptome had it here. [cryptome.org]

Isn't that like importing banned books on a plane? (3, Insightful)

Tenebrious1 (530949) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811972)

where a web-page is *read* (ie browsed) as the place of publication of its contents, regardless of where the page or the server serving it are located.

It seems to me that it is an action carried out by the person doing the surfing. Much like an American going to Canada and trying to come back across with Cuban cigars. Is it the fault of the guy trying to smuggle in the goods, or of the Candadian government for allowing its own citizens and and visitors to buy the cigars?

Not that I favor net censorship. Yes, there is some nasty stuff out there. But you don't have to surf to it. You don't have to expose yourself to it. If you do so and get offended, who's responsiblity is it? Yours. Not the governments, not the person who put up the website. It's not like a billboard, where you will see it if you look in a general direction.

Yes, searches sometimes turn up (possibly) objectionable results, but that just means the searcher needs to learn how to refine searches.

Education, not restrictions.

Domain and Country Blocking (2, Insightful)

TrentTheThief (118302) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811974)

Well, this certainly takes a different spin on things, eh?

This interpretation of "country of publication" should, then, also effect the copyright laws of printed matter as well. So, I open a book in Singapore and it that makes Singapore the country of publication? I don't think so.

This sounds like any number of "We Own The Net" attitudes spawned by a lack of understanding.

The cure for this is to simply beginning access block for the offending countries. In this case, blocking Australia from wholesale chunks of the net would certainly force a new new view of the situation.

After all, that's what those Allow/Deny's are for, right? If you don't want trouble with neighbor's kids, don't let them in your yard ;-)

It's just what the U.S.A. has been doing all along (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811976)

Now the shoe is on the other foot. cphack [sooke.bc.ca] , anyone?

More restrictive laws (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811983)

As a Brit living in the US who also travels abroad quite offten, I find it hard to understand the reference to other countries more restrictive laws, releative to the US. I'm sure there are some countires (Iraq, Iran, Libya??, although I've never been to any of those) that have more restrictive laws. However it seems to me that corporations funding US politicians are very succesfully restricting all levels of technological freedom.

On the other point of the posting it does seem rediculous that the place where a page is viewed is considered the publication point, as the reader had to request delivery from the server. This is equivalent to buying material legally in one country and smuggling it another country where it is illegal. The person that sold it cannot be held resposible it is the person smuggling it that broke the law.

Globalization (1)

Mr_Blank (172031) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811985)

There are many views on acceptable speech and those are reflected in the laws of individual countries, states, and municipalities. As capatilsm driven globalization merges the various entities into larger more homegenous governments, we will see many of the descrepancies smoothed over between groups that already had views that were pretty close. You can see this trend in lobbying for Universal Copyright Laws.

You will always be able to get in trouble somewhere for something you thought was reasonable at home. Not every governement will adopt the global laws - especialy not at first. But you will see time and again that countries that "never would" eventually do. Information wants to be free, remember? So countries have to adopt laws to tie some information up so they can turn a profit (taxes, fines, wars, etc).

The globalization of capitalism, and the laws that shape capitalism will really accelerate in the next 30 years. As China's middle class grows, as the EU finds its stride as a single republic, and as the countries of North America become more unified; the laws that set standards for what is acceptable speech will become more potent and affect more people. ... If you don't want to end up in a Guyanan court for you website, please try to be active in shaping your government's views early and often.

Sorry for being so terse, but if you read the papers you will pick up the trends I am referring to. You will see it applies to your website regardless of location in the long term. ... I don't have much insight for you short term - except to get a good lawyer if you do cause a rucous.

Some opinions (1)

Sylver Dragon (445237) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811987)

I'm not a Laywer, so I cannot give any real legal opinions. But it would seem that we are slowly moving to a point where some sort of logical barrier will be created to enforce the geographical barriers that currently exist. Already some countries are trying out what amounts to a national firewall/proxy. Though this poses a lot of freespeech questions(though in some countries this is a non-issue), also it is a logistical nightmare. As for enforcing some sort of location tag on a webpage request this again is a logistical impossibility (imagine joe-end-user trying to set up a disallow list for every country in the world that might not like what he has to say. Also, how the hell would he know about those laws?). I do think that some day the burecrats of the world will finally figure out a way to control internet content access(at least the majority of it), though I dislike the idea as much as the next freespech advocate.
As for any legal/jusidiction issues, I don't think that many of these will be resolved easily. After-all, what country wants to give up its sovreignty over its citizens? I guess we could try and push for a world govenment/standard, but I think that this would just get lots of people killed fighting it.(If slashdot is any indicator Americans, Europeans, and Austrailians will never accept the same set of laws.)
Of course, there are questions that we are having to deal with right now(Think Skylarov, Austrailian Defamation case against US entity). Whether there was a right or a wrong to either issue is irrelevent, what is relevent, is how do we decide if a person can be brought to trial and/or punished?
I can see two ways this could go.
1. You can arrest them if they come to visit. This is what happened to Skylarov, and is roughly the way things seem to go at the moment. But taken to its logical extreme this is a good way to create isolationism. Who would want to travel if they might be arrested and convicted for an action that was legal back home, but is a crime elsewhere?
2. Let it go if it was commited outside your borders. Ok, so as long as I can prove that I wasn't in your country when I broke your encryption and started selling your program to everyone for 5 bucks, its ok. This is a great way to discourage the distribution of software outside its home country, and were back to an isolationist setup.
So what are we left with to do? International laws? Start punishing countries for allowing/disallowing things in thier country? I don't think there is going to be a nice clean answer, and whatever we go with is gonna piss off a lot of people.

Works the other way too... (2, Insightful)

kinko (82040) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811991)

Being from New Zealand, I don't think you can generalise with statements like "restrictive domestic laws of other countries".

U.S. courts claim jurisdiction over many things that occur outside the states, and many US federal laws cover things that occur outside US boundaries - eg illegal to bribe overseas officials, even if you do it from outside U.S. territory.

Here's something to think about. In many western countries, the age of consent is 16. In the Australian territory of Northern Territory, it is (or was) 12. (!!??!) By US definition, this is child pornography.

Also, remember that under the WIPO treaties, large (and not-so-large) US companies have lots of power over companies in other countries regarding trademarks and copyrights, and I would say that these powers are often abused. Of course, this happens for non-US companies too, it's just that there are so many more large US ones. As patents are covered by these treaties, the US seems to be of the opinion "it is good for the US economy if US companies hold many patents that would otherwise go to non-US companies".

I'm not saying what is right or wrong, and I don't want this post to look anti-US, just add a bit of balance. Eg the N.Z. government, under some pressure from U.S. government, is reviewing it's copyright laws to move them into line regarding copyright of digital materials.

So I guess my point is that U.S. laws are being effected in other countries as well. I don't think U.S. yahoo should be subject to French laws, but if they had a French office then a French magistrate could argue that they were operating in France. U.S. judges do this stuff too.

--

banning us websites (1)

greymond (539980) | more than 12 years ago | (#2811995)

look at rotten.com which was banned in germany - but they have no way of actually implementing that. also germany has tried to make cerfues (selected times where it can be viewed) on internet porn sites - which is also un-implementable. unless your operating in the country and they have a physical means of stopping you - your free.

DMCA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2811999)

Or worse yet people can be in violation of the DMCA . in other nations.

Regional content and responsibility (2)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812007)

I think that two things need to happen over the reasonably near future, if the Internet is to avoid falling into disrespect and neglect.

Firstly, there needs to be some sort of mechanism for content to be tailored to particular audiences in different regions. This might be enforced by forming barriers between different telecoms networks, but it would probably make more sense for it to be a guideline. If you choose to download something in a region that isn't indicated, you are now responsible for the content; you were given fair warning. This seems a reasonable compromise on the issue of what is politically acceptable in different regions.

Secondly, the Internet needs proper tracability. As I've said here before, with freedom comes responsibility. If you want to keep your rights to free speech, you're going to have to accept that you can't do it truly anonymously. Otherwise, spamming will be the least of your problems; undefended defamation, damaging legal, financial or medical advice, free information on how to make bombs, etc. could become the norm. At that point, the Internet loses all credibility as a serious medium. The big names go away, it falls into disuse, and it dies.

On the other hand, one of the great advantages to the Internet is the fact that you can, currently, say things anonymously. In cases where what you say is true, but would get you in trouble if you were identified, this is useful; it's only a problem when it's abused (and as we all know, it is regularly abused). So, in the same way as the world has worked for years outside of the Internet, we need a system where you can opt not to give your name initially, but where suitable authorities (e.g., the police acting on a court order in many western countries) can identify you if you are found to have done something wrong, so you are still accountable.

This allows for an investigation to be carried out into whether or not something that's been said is against the rules, and only when it's been found to be wrong do the authorities identify the poster and take action against them. Sure, it's not perfect, but at least now it's the same as the rest of the world, and guys can't go around claiming to be doctors and getting people killed or slagging me off behind my back. And hey, you get to annihilate most of the world's spammers in the process. Now you can have the free speech you value so highly, but you can still get screwed if you abuse the privilege. That sounds like a pretty fair compromise to me.

radio free europe (2, Insightful)

reverse flow reactor (316530) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812016)

Remember that while the Berlin Wall was up, that the west attempted to broadcast their radio signals into East Germany. These radio stations told the East German people news of the rest of the world from a different perspective. Their signals were broadcasted from western countries to behind the Iron Curtain, and were considered pirate by the communist governments of the time. Many attempts were Still, many westerners considered that it was the right thing to do at the time and that certain governments were wrong.

The broadcasts persisted, and some might say that they had an important role in the fall of communism.

We must ensure that we do not build up walls of our own that blind us from what is going on outside.

But don't take my word for it. Read [google.com] up on this topic [uky.edu] and figure it out for yourself.

The Constitution is more than the First Amendment (2)

toupsie (88295) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812024)

The American fore fathers had a solution to this problem nestled in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. Its called the Second Amendment and it gives every American the right to defend itself from domestic and foreign oppression. Thomas Jefferson, for one, believed that revolutions are necessary when Governments and their backers become oppressive.

If you think those in power are going to cater to your desires without force or bribery, you are sorely mistaken.

May be the opposite (1)

TulioSerpio (125657) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812031)

In time of war, like now, the US law may be more restrictive than other countries.

That's preposterous. (1)

dannannan (470647) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812033)

There's no way a foreign government will be able to impose its laws and succeed in prosecuting citizens of a separate sovereign nation under them. A foreign government that wants to pursue such an approach ought to start by suing the people who operate the network infrastructure at the first point of contact into their jurisdiction.

D

Hmm... (1)

krugdm (322700) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812040)

This article wouldn't have been sent in by Bernard Shifman [slashdot.org] about this website [petemoss.com] , would it?

Most claims come from US and are aimed at US ISP's (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2812042)

My experience, as a non-US ISP, is that all legal
letters claim everything under the sun that is
applicable to the US legal system. Even if it
doesn't apply at all, such as DMCA threats,
federal trademarks, or the amount in which one
can use material under fair use conditions.

The most ridicilous ofcourse, I encountered while
defending clients with Scientology criticism :)

L.A. :)

Amateur Action BBS case established venue, 1994 (3, Informative)

CatherineCornelius (543166) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812047)

The Amateur Action BBS case (1994, confirmed on appeal 1996) established in the Federal jurisdiction that the community standards of the recipient's physical locale apply for the purpose of obscenity law whether transmission is electronic or otherwise (18USC 1465).

http://www.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/aabbs/aabbs.html

WARNING: CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL OTIII AND ABOVE MAT (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812050)



There are some questions about Lisa's behavior that beg for
answers, which I will attempt.

1) Why did Lisa behave so strangely at the auto accident?

First. According the Dandar in the 60 minutes interview, the
"isolation log" began BEFORE Lisa had the auto accident. His
contention is that she was ALREADY undergoing isolation and had been
able to bolt (escape). Well, he's right! Her statement to the
paramedics, her behavior, the accident, and the log all add up to a
person trying to escape, being VERY scared and nervous, probably
shaking, and having an auto accident because of it.

From personal experience, I can assure you, escaping an org is
a terrifying experience. The psychological hold the group has on you
is immense. Leaving would be the equivalent of a normal person, for
example, going AWOL in the military. You know you are going to be
tracked down eventually and pay the price. In fact, you know if you
get caught, the punishment will be severe, and the "wog" world does
NOTHING to stop Scientology's dirty tricks so you have NO ONE to go
for to get help. You are FAIR GAME, on your own, with the likes of
Eugene Engram coming around to kill your pets, post flyers libelling
you, cancelling your credit cards, anonymously informing on you to the
police with made up crimes, and other sorts of the nastiest, cruelty
loving, get even pranks that mankind has ever invented.

That's the state of mind she was likely in.

You have to remember that Clearwater is full of Scientologists
and Scientologist agents. She couldn't even be sure the police
wouldn't drag her back to Flag! That is the state of terror that
Scientologists often live in when they start "bucking" the Scientology
system.

I strongly suspect that Lisa was involved in some kind of
money laundering/tax evasion scheme and decided she wanted out. NO
Scientology company pays its employees 160,000 per year unless there
is something fishy going on. Sea Org members are all too willing
slaves who find even minimum wage to be wealth beyond their wildest
dreams. They will work for peanuts all to easily.

I can't stress too much the importance of the "financial
irregularities" in this case. The fact that people were forging Lisa's
signature on checks, even AFTER she was dead is highly irregular. It
MUST be looked into and records from her job looked into.

Look at the scheme this way:

Church says, "We'll buy your product, because we can deduct
that as an expense. You pay your employees inflated salaries, which
you can deduct as a business expense. The proviso is, the employees
HAVE to spend all, or most, of that salary on Scientology
services. Done this way, the company essentially leverages the
Church's tax exempt status."

Hopefully, someone more finance oriented will be able to
explain that more clearly.

2) Why did Lisa return to Flag with the Scientologists?

A lot of people are saying, "Well, she was stupid for leaving
the hospital when the Scientologists came for her".

Well, what would YOUR state of mind be? You just tried a
desperate attempt at escape and blew it. 5 to 7 Scientologists show up
at your bedside (why so many?). Oh boy. You know they are capable of
just about anything to keep you from running and telling what you know.

Why did 5 people show up (I'm not sure of the exact number),
but any more than 3 would have been highly irregular FOR AN
ORGANIZATION THAT WORKS THEIR PEOPLE SO HARD THEY DON'T EVEN LET THEM
SEE THEIR KIDS EXCEPT ON THE WEEKEND!?

They weren't there to "see how she was doing". They were there
to ensure she was brought back to Flag and silenced. They were there
to intimidate her, and use force if necessary, that's why. Oh, they
wouldn't have done it in front of the doctor. They would have hung
around outside the hospital until she was released if necessary.

You know what they did? I'll bet $100 bucks they said this,
"They want to commit you. If you don't come back with us, they'll send
you to the psyches who will electric shock you".

At that point, being totally brainwashed that psychiatrists
were evil demons, she had no choice but to go along and PRETEND to be
wacked out so they wouldn't think she was betraying them.

Heber, and that slow-witted Vaughn lawyer keep using phrases
like, "These people loved her". All Dandar has to say is, "Yes they
loved her. They loved her enough to forge checks after her death and
empty her bank account to the point where her estate couldn't even
afford a funeral and she was cremated to destroy the evidence. Must
have been TRUE love indeed".

NOWHERE IN SCIENTOLOGY DOCTRINE IS CREMATION EVER MENTIONED AS
THE PROSCRIBED "BODY TERMINATION". THAT IS BULLSHIT IF THEY TELL YOU
THAT.

3) Why was she acting so crazy at Flag?

The main reason was to placate her captors. One of Hubbard's
data which almost every Scientologist knows is that insanity is an
effort to convince your captors you aren't dangerous. To an immortal
thetan, who cannot die, death is no escape. All you can do is pretend
to be crazy, and harmless. That's what she was doing, at least at the
beginning, it's instinctual. She wanted them to think she "really
wasn't betraying them but had just snapped".

Then, she was given Baby Watch. This is where they confine you
to a room, using physical force if necessary, feeding you but never
talking to you. First of all, you have to realize that Scientologists
are following Hubbard's teachings exactly. She was put in a room and
GIVEN THE SILENT TREATMENT FOR OVER HALF A MONTH!

This is torture. It's virtual solitary confinement.

Now you tell me, wouldn't that drive anyone crazy?

Of course she wanted to leave, but the threat of physical
force was everywhere! Scientologists were everywhere. She had already
tried once to escape and failed. This is a normal person, not a
Papillon. It was hopeless. They weren't going to let her go until she
bent to their will and she was a spunky person who was not going to
bend to their will. She wouldn't bend, so she broke.

And we do know there was a documented incident where a Flag
security guard followed a blown student saying they were going to kill
here so they DO use death threats to intimidate and control people.

What the hell was Lisa supposed to do?

The fact that the logs are missing from the last two days is
very telling. Something happened there that is the true nightmare of
Lisa McPherson. All case actions are recorded, RELIGIOUSLY.
EVERYTHING. The only way they could be missing is if they were
purposely removed.

Dandar needs to ask, "Isn't it a high crime to not keep
session records? Was a comittee of Evidence ever convened on JoeBlow
for not keeping records? No? Hmmm. Don't you find that peculiar?"

I'm not sure if 5th amendment applies in civil cases, but
either way, when the attendants are questioned, if Dandar is good, he
can find inconsistencies in their stories that will demonstrate to the
jury they are lying. You can be damn sure that, if they testify,
they'll have been coached on a "shore story".

We know that Lisa's Aunt, upon entering Flag, was told that
Lisa was under "Baby Watch". That witness should be called if the Aunt
can identify him/her. It was one of Lisa's friends so it shouldn't be
that hard.

80 million dollars is much too little. I hope the jury is
allowed to amplify that amount. And I hope when the verdict comes in,
the people of Clearwater are prepared to counter picket the inevitable
Scientology picket that will occur.

This is a case of death brought about by cruel and unusual
punishment, no matter WHAT the intention was, or what the
Scientologists call it. Lisa was deprived of her civil rights as well
as her life, by a conspiracy of many people.

It must not happen again, and because the Church does not, and
will not change its methods, they must be deprived of the means to
inflict any more midaeval, supersitious solutions to people's medical
problems.

Laura Vaughn must be on drugs. She is so relaxed I think she
is. You can't justify a insect bitten, shrunken, bloody, bruised
corpse of a 17 days ago healthy young woman. Sorry. It's
indefensible. The more they try to escape it, the bigger the penalty
will be in the end. When the jury sees those pictures, and learns of
the circumstances, self admitted by the Church, she died under, it's
all over.

I also hope that Dandar does NOT settle out of court. This
thing needs to be done to expose Scientology completely.

After watching Heber tonight on Public Eye, I hope you all
understand that MANY Scientologists are just as rabid. Hubbard truly
left behind a mess of broken people.

So sad,
Buckwheat

More Importantly... (3, Interesting)

twoflower (24166) | more than 12 years ago | (#2812054)

This has far-reaching ramifications, as it opens up anyone publishing anything on a web-site (and also Usenet) in America to the more restrictive domestic laws of other countries ...
More importantly, it opens up those of us publishing info on a website in a truly free country to the more restrictive domestic laws of the United States of America. See thefreeworld.net [thefreeworld.net] for an example of needing to avoid this.

Twoflower
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