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Simply GNUstep Delivers UNIX, Simply

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the stuff-to-play-with dept.

GNUStep 396

Eugenia writes "A new, Linux-based operating system released recently, called Simply GNUstep and it is based on the GNUstep architecture, originally built by NeXT (OpenSTEP) and is now also used by MacOSX (Cocoa). The alpha version of the x86-based OS is available for download and boots off the 110 MB bootable CD. The cool thing about Simply GNUstep is its partial source compatibility with MacOSX programs (further compatibility is still worked on) and its clean infrastructure, as it only includes GnuSTEP graphical applications like WindowMaker, Mail.app etc. You can read an introduction article of the OS at OSNews."

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frist ps0t (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817713)

i win i win i win! clint mathis.

Re:frist ps0t (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817718)

Why do people care so much about first post?

Re:frist ps0t (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817752)

People don't care enough about first post.

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not fp (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817722)

i lose. i lose. i lose.
AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

my name is junis! (-1)

trollercoaster (250101) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817734)

Message from Kabul
Posted by JonKatz on 01:45 PM November 20th, 2001
from the information-wants-to-be-free-(and-is) dept.
An open information society is inevitable. I was a little surprised last week to receive a forwarded e-mail from Junis, who lives in a small town 35 miles southwest of Kabul. This weekend, a movie theater and video store opened up again in Kabul (renting Independence Day), Afghan TV cranked up, and so did the Net. Americans understand all too well that our techno-driven culture produces wonders and dangers, but it's one of the most popular social and political forces in the world. Passion for pop culture relentlessly undermined repressive governments like Poland, East Germany and the former Soviet Union. The world, it turns out, really is porous now. Technology and information will squeeze through every closed nook and crevice. The Taliban never made a dent in the attachment this Afghan programmer and his friends had for it.

When his message came, the Taliban had just fled, Northern Alliance soldiers had taken over his village, and everybody rushed to barbers to cut off their beards and to nearby holes and hiding spots to dig up their Walkmen, VCRs, TVs, CD players, and -- in Junis's case -- his ancient Commodore, one of four in the village. Cafes had popped up all over, with impromptu dances and parties everywhere.

Junis's e-mail -- routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London -- was a reminder that there are civil liberties, and then there are civil liberties. Computers had been banned under penalty of death by the Taliban (except for the Taliban themselves), along with music and TV. Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired. He was genial and obsessed with American culture. He loved martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap. He was perhaps the Taliban's prime kind of target. (Now he's furiously trying to download movies he's missed and is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot.)

"I could still see the dust of the pick-up trucks carrying the Taliban out of my village," he wrote, "and some friends and I went and dug up the boards of a chicken coop where I had hid the computer. They might have beaten or killed us if they'd found it. It was forbidden, although they used computers all of the time." He claims American commandos are skulking around dressed as Northern Alliance tribesmen.

Junis describes life under the Taliban as brutal, terrifying and profoundly boring. What the people in his town -- especially the kids -- missed most was music, posters of Indian and American movie stars (he'd kept his own decaying poster of Madonna), and American TV. Junis missed the fast-changing Web and sees, he says, that he has fallen "forever behind," and that programming is more complex than ever. But at least "Baywatch," which everyone in his town acutely missed, is back, and there's already a lot of talk about "Survivor." Junis predicts "Temptation Island" will be the number one show in Afghanistan within a month.

If the world needed another demonstration of America's most powerful weapon -- not bombs or special forces but pop culture -- it got it again this week. People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing, but people's love for American techno-toys, TV shows, music and movies is breathaking. Watching TV pictures of tribesman on horseback, it's easy to forget that technology reached deep into this culture as well. Junis says phone service around Kabul remains spotty, but reporters, U.N. workers and foreign soldiers are wiring up. He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.

There are many computers in Afghanistan, Junis said, many in clusters in cities like Kabul and Kandahar (news reports have frequently mentioned that Bin-Laden's organization used both e-mail and encrypted files to communicate). Computer geeks are already hooking up with one another all over the country; Junis isn't the only Afghan e-mailing these days. He says other coders and gamers hid their PC's as well. Meanwhile, he's especially eager to get his hands on the Apple iPod, and has been drooling over the Apple website site since he got back online. And some things, of course, never change. "I thought they were going to get Microsoft," he wrote. "I guess not."

A decade ago, when East Berlin teenagers stormed the Wall and crossed over into West Berlin, the first thing many of them did was rush to music stores to buy tapes and CD's they'd been secretly, illegally listening to for years.

The Taliban worked to create the antithesis of the American world, one without technology, computing, the Net, music, or any vestige of popular culture (not to mention women's rights, elections, a free press or any religion except fundamentalist Islam. Junis said people in his town risked their lives repeatedly, not to fight the Taliban, but to try and listen to CD's and watch videos smuggled in from Pakistan, watched in the dark under blankets and in cellars. It seems the outcome was inevitable.

Re:my name is junis! (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817755)

wow j0n knows little boys all over the world.

early post! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817740)

eat a dick! AC's STILL RILE!!!

Re:early post! (-1, Offtopic)

zaqattack911 (532040) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817763)

you're a moron

If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1, Flamebait)

Improv (2467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817741)

Then I've found the Linux distro for me.
I've been starting to move my systems to
BSD to avoid the Redhat braindamage that seems
to be spreading to other linuces (xinetd, vi=vim,
and so on), but perhaps this might make me give
second thought... If only someone would mix
all of the BSD userland stuff with the Linux
kernel...

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0, Offtopic)

Mr_Matt (225037) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817773)

vi=vim,

Not to be hyper-critical, but what's so bad about vim? I recall Slackware 3.4 using vim as vi, and it worked just as well as the ancient Sun-provided vi that I was using at work.

Okay, so I'm nitpicking, but isn't that what geeks do? :)

I love vim (0, Offtopic)

Improv (2467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817817)

Don't misunderstand -- I really love vim,
and use it all the time for work. I just don't
want it to launch when I type 'vi'. I usually
want to compile my own vim with all the
options I want (that is, I want 'vim -g' to work,
among other things). I don't want vi to go away
when I remove the vim package. Also, in recent
versions of redhat, vim as vi reads your .vimrc,
but it then complains when you have vim-specific
things in it (like 'syntax on'). I couldn't be
nearly as effective in my programming job without
vim, but I just don't want vi to be vim in
disguise.

Re:I love vim (1)

walt-sjc (145127) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817893)

This is silly. The real vi sucks - just look at the version Sun ships which can't handle large files or long lines. Go ahead and comple vim yourself, and link vi to it and deal with it. Be happy that you get vim for vi by default instead of elvis, or one of the other horrible clones. File a bug report if RH's version is fucked.

Re:I love vim (1)

bwulf (325) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817989)

You need to try out nvi. Yes, SVR4 vi sucks. nvi doesn't, it's a "bug-for-bug compatible replacement for the original 4BSD vi",
meaning you get the exact behaviour of a traditional BSD vi, but the sources are unencumbered.

I'm not going to comment on vim or the other vi-lookalikes, it'd probably end in a small flame-war.

Re:I love vim (1)

cornice (9801) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817988)

Seems that this is rather easy to fix compared to changing distros, since you compile your own vim anyway. A couple /usr/local directories and a couple alias commands...

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

bjb (3050) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817902)

For me, sometimes I only want to load vi (227,732 bytes) for a quick fix instead of the enormous vim binary (2,347,476 bytes). Not a big deal with fast hardware, but you sometimes see the difference... just a habit, really..

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

qurob (543434) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817954)



Directory of C:\WINNT\system32

07/26/2000 05:00p 69,886 edit.com
1 File(s) 69,886 bytes


:o)

Personally, my all-time favorite .... Now only if it had syntax coloring ..... If it was open source I could add it!

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

jaoswald (63789) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818011)

ED!

ED is the *standard* text editor!

You know the rest....

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

Mr_Matt (225037) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818048)

Holy cow, and I thought I had a bloated vim...

taipan:/home/rogers> du -k /usr/bin/vim
720 /usr/bin/vim
taipan:/home/rogers>

How'd you get your vim up to nearly 2 meg? That's kind of cool, in a silly way.

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817983)

But you lose that old-school vi flavor when you start using vim. That's one of the reasons I use vi, I don't want to use a more functional one; it would be like installing a modern engine in a beautifully restored 1936 Aston-Martin. Yeah, it'll go faster, but you're not driving it for the speed...

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817785)

if you think the linux kernel is in any way shape or form better than any BSD kernel, well...i'm not going to say it.

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817835)

No kidding, dude. An excellent scheduler, a working VM subsystem, scalability, reliability...the list goes on and on! I'm sure Linux'll catch up one of these days. =)

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817901)

Can you hold your breath long enough for ANY of the BSD's to support SMP better than Linux 2.0 did?

I know I can't.

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817927)

FreeBSD's MP support has never been a detriment to any work I've done. It also doesn't CRASH. This puts it well above the awful Linux 2.4.x.y.z kernels.

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (2)

Improv (2467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817875)

Depends on which kernel. As I said, I really like
the BSD userland stuff. The FreeBSD bootup driver
switching utility is quite impressive. But I like
the broader driver support that Linux has, and
the build tools to recompile the kernel on linux
are nice. If it wern't for those two features,
I probably would prefer the FreeBSD kernel, although
when it comes to userland features, I actually
prefer OpenBSD.

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817834)

What don't you like about VIM?

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

fthr_gasp (8189) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817898)

>If only someone would mix
>all of the BSD userland stuff with the Linux

erm....slackware?

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (2)

GauteL (29207) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817973)

Uhm.. while I do like BSD, isn't this posting basically just "I dislike Linux, and want something more BSD".. what exactly is so interesting about it?

If you like BSD better, why not just use it?

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817986)

What crap! Ever notice all these hardcore BSD'ers always wanting a linux they could feel good about?

The people complaing about xinetd are the same people that were complaining bout inetd and how insecure the whole mess was.

And vim smokes vi, so what you been smoking? And why arent you sharing?

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (1)

tshoppa (513863) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817992)

Then I've found the Linux distro for me. I've been starting to move my systems to BSD to avoid the Redhat braindamage

Look at other distros or - even better - Build your own with Linux From Scratch [linuxfromscratch.org] as a starting point.

that seems to be spreading to other linuces (xinetd, vi=vim, and so on)

The basic LFS install is without xinetd, but is with Vim. If you don't want to install Vim, though, you're completely free to install whatever you do want.

If only someone would mix all of the BSD userland stuff with the Linux kernel...

In which case GNUStep is not for you. It's so completely and utterly different than anything you've ever seen that "running vi" doesn't make sense in the UI model.

Debian (was Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux..) (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2818003)

Erm... not to post the obvious... but have you ever tried Debian? It's harder to install the first time, but you get /soooo/ much control over what gets installed that if you get a bad install, you're really the one to blame ;-)

Of course, you will probably want to compile your own kernel, since the Debian kernels usually suck. But hey, that's what the LDP's Kernel HOWTO is for, right? ;-)

Re:If it's a fairly BSDish Linux.. (4, Insightful)

cavemanf16 (303184) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818051)

Ok, so this is a troll, but I'll respond anyways. Why is it that some people find the alternative OS crowd to be so 'out there', annoying, and retarded? It's because of people like you, with your 'BSD is the best' elitism, and your 'aren't I special for not following the crowd' thinking. There's another poster on slashdot that has as his sig: "Yes, not having a TV, DOES make me a better person."

People with this holier than thou attitude really need a reality check. Why does not having a TV make you a better person? I have a TV, but I don't waste every waking minute in front of it. Still, it does me good to be in on the pop culture of our times. Without a TV I wouldn't be as much a part of US society. But if you don't want a TV, I applaud that. Just don't go hyping how awesome you are for not having a TV.

Same thing goes for you. You make this implication that the second Linux became profitable and useable by the masses of computer geeks, it became not elitist. And so when BSD reaches this point, where it becomes massively accepted and useful for many things, will you then decide it too is not elite enough for you?

Is Microsoft Windows the greatest? No. Is Linux the greatest? No. Is MacOS the greatest? No. Is BSD the greatest? No. Every single one has something about them that someone doesn't like. Personally, I'm really learning to love linux, but it's taking time. Will I tell others how I think Linux is generally better for a lot of productivity and security things? Yes. Will I try cramming it down their throats how brain-dead and worthless everything about MS Windows is? No, not unless I feel like being a real ass.

BTW, good job with making this post a subtle enough troll not to get you modded down as such. Too bad people actually modded it up.

Huh? (1)

phajek (147371) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818052)

You have this backwards. I would rather have the Linux userland choices and the highly regarded FreeBSD kernel with top notch VM and TCP/IP stack. Especially after the Linux kernel 2.4.10 VM changes-- what a sorry excuse for a kernel.

Confusion is bound to happen (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817745)

-What should I use for my project?
-Use Simply GNUstep.
-You mean: simply use GNUstep?
-No, I said: use Simply GNUstep
-[thinks "damn foreigners", uses GNUstep, complains it isn't simple].

GNUstep is not a user friendly desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817856)

no GNOME, no KDE, etc, just GNUstep

That is, no user friendly desktop.

Gnome and KDE are the two projects that might make a non-Microsoft operating system competetive one day.

Only one problem.. (-1)

LOTR Troll (544929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817766)

MacOS X sucks balls, so nobody would want to use it unless they're flaming homosexual or "special." NeXTStep, well, NeXTStep is dead. Cut your losses, fools.

Cool will have to give this a go. (1, Redundant)

-douggy (316782) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817767)

I am always interested to try new varients of unix operating systems. I will refrain for making any comments about its use until i have tried it for myself

enlighten me (1, Offtopic)

rtscts (156396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817770)

Graphical Boot-Up (no confusing Linux kernel messages)

Kept as simple as possible (no GNOME, no KDE, etc, just GNUstep)
I'm cool with all the features except these two. A) I hope it's easy to get rid of the graphical startup. B) what the hell works with GNUstep? Gnome and KDE have been fighting for the "user-friendly" crown for ages, what's GNUstep bring to the party?

Re:enlighten me (3, Informative)

Glytch (4881) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817833)

Low system requirements. Not every machine has the half gig of ram required to run KDE without swapping.

GNUstep is better! (2, Informative)

lightfoot jim (441918) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817896)

Gnome and KDE are great if user friendly==windows98 look and feel, and if you have a fast machine with a ton of ram. To give a single example of the userfriendliness, your "main menu" in KDE or Gnome require you to move your mouse over the K or the foot, respectively. GNUstep lets you click anywhere on the background image. Additionally, in GNUstep icons are usually spaced out in a line along one screen edge so you can't possible overshoot with your mouse. Seems trivial, but it lets me work faster.

Also, GNUstep will run on some pretty old hardware. I have changed the setup lately, but I used to have KDE2 on my 900mhz duron w/ 512 MB and WindowMaker on my PII 100mhz w/ 32 MB and if you didn't actually know, you'd think the PII was faster just because the environment was so lightweight.

Re:GNUstep is better! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817959)

You can set KDE up so you have an application list via a click in the root window. Plus it can be set to look a hell of a lot different than Windows. Your panel need not have a taskbar, if that's your bitch. Your window manager doesn't have to have buttons placed like windows (I have a pseudo motif setup - motif buttons but with close on the left and min/max on the right).

I won't dispute the fact that KDE takes more resources than more cut down environments, but that's common sense: it provides more. Whether you yourself find the extras useful is a different story.

KDE can be much different than it is "out of the box". You seem to have forgotten that.

Re:GNUstep is better! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2818039)

It would have sounded more convincing with some real arguments.

A 100MHz pentium 2??

Vesa 2.0? (-1, Offtopic)

drenehtsral (29789) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817774)

Hey, does anybody know if there are _ANY_ Vesa 2.0 compliant video cards on the market anymore? I don't recall seeing anything with ROM'd Vesa 2.0 since my old VLB Hercules card that used the W32 chipset...

Re:Vesa 2.0? (1)

CTho9305 (264265) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817805)

Don't most cards still work with VESA? I used some standard VESA modes in an assembly program I wrote, on my Geforce2... I'm not sure about VESA 2.0 though. (I don't know exactly what it is)

Re:Vesa 2.0? (1)

bonk (13623) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817951)

the problem with Vesa is that it is SLOW.

Re:Vesa 2.0? (1)

boa13 (548222) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817870)

I think all (if not, most) cards on the market today are VESA 2.0 compliant. More probably VESA 3.0 compliant. It's become so basic that it's not mentionned anymore.

The sad part is.... (4, Interesting)

ACK!! (10229) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817775)

This is almost what I want.

I am getting tired of my Gnome and KDE. I am starting to long for the days when I used WindowMaker, Postilion and FSviewer together with a cobbled up list of other xapps to get my job done simply.

The problems are paramount. Fsviewer barely works on my updated SuSE 7.3 Postilion does not like my cutting edge versions of tcl/tk and I am not yet ready to give up the laundry list of apps I need to do business for a barebones environment. Plus, I like unified look and feel that I get with say KDE or Gnome.

If I got a distribution with a laundry list of apps centered around those apps with a Nextish look and feel then I would be a happy man.

The problem with Simply GNUstep is that it is what it says it is. It is Linux with GNUstep already built and configured but it has nothing else.

If it was supplemented with other X apps with a Next feel or gtk apps with a Next theme maybe into a usable package then I think I would be in love.

________________________________________________ __

Re:The sad part is.... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817865)

A German tourist who complained of a foul odor in his hotel room unwittingly led police to a decomposed corpse under the bed where he spent the night.

Saturday, police were still investigating the identity and death of a woman found under a bed at the Travelers Hotel at 4767 NW 36th St. in Miami Springs. A maid found the body Friday morning after the tourist complained of a foul smell as he was checking out.

The body was so badly decomposed, investigators have only been able to determine the woman was five feet tall, weighed about 100 pounds and had shoulder length brown hair. She was wearing a blue-green top and lacy black skirt.

"It's bizarre," said [police police spokeswoman]. "We don't know how long she was there."

[autopsy done Saturday, findings not released] [tourist questioned, cops let him go]

"We were looking for the smell," said [hotel housekeeper]. "We thought it came from the roof, but it was in the room."

[hotel manager not talking] [life goes on at the hotel, maids, maintenance guys doing their jobs] [another guest says "It's just something that happens. I've enjoyed spending the winter here."]

But the news certainly impacted the manager of a nearby hotel with a similar name - the Travelodge Hotel at 5301 NW 36th St.

[Travelodge manager asks media not to confuse the name of the hotel where corpse was found. Says "It's been on the news and on the radio. There's concern among guests."]

Re:The sad part is.... (4, Insightful)

xanadu-xtroot.com (450073) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817880)

(I hate to sound like a troll here, because I don't mean to, but...)

I am getting tired of my Gnome and KDE. I am starting to long for the days when I used WindowMaker

So... simply don't use them. Remove the packages if you don't even what to support apps written for them. Install your prefered GUI/WindowManager and don't look back. Seriously. It's that easy. You don't need a "special" distro to do what you want. Just simply install / remove what you want / don't want.

That's what Linux is all about: choice

Re:The sad part is.... (3, Insightful)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817969)

The reason that geeks fail in meeting customer/end-user needs so often: they take someone else's preferences as an attack on their own. Really, why did you bother to post this? You think that the parent poster was calling for the annihilation of KDE/Gnome? He was expressing preferences and the reasons for them. A distro/environment that provides what he needs out-of-the-box means a lot fewer admin hassles and the freedom to just get working: it's why I used Debian instead of compiling and configuring every damned little thing by myself.

And besides, the customizability of the KDE/Gnome environments is somewhat restricted by very complex interdependencies.

Re:The sad part is.... (1)

ultraw (99206) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817943)

Bear in mind that it is only a 0.00001 release. If the creator wants integration between OSX and Simple GNUStep, applications should follow...

Also, I'm quite happy with this development. KDE and Gnome are nice for a home user, but many people dont want all the "all in one" integration. I prefer a fast and light system, configured to my own needs, with the correct application for every task.

I think, people who have to use their PC every day (at home or at work) want a quick and easy-to-use desktop. That is where Windowmaker comes in the picture. They also want a stable system (ah, linux, bsd or any other *nix). And with Apple moving over to the *nix side of the OS market,...

Lets hope it all turns out as an improvement for the *nix market. More apps on the platform i use, is a thing i can only be happy about.

Re:The sad part is.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2818000)

If you long for the days of using WindowMaker, why not use WindowMaker. WindowMaker Rocks!

HeLlO (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817777)

gReEtZ gO oUt To AlL C64 cRaCkInG gRoUpz!!

[insert awesome SID techno]

[bouncy text]

[image]

[logo]

our national debt (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817780)

In 1928 The stock market was was getting into a uncontrollable, inflated, speculation spiral upward, the government intervened several times by raising bond prices, but that didnt work, and for the next year and a half, the speculative bubble continued, which brought the private sector(amateurs) into the market.

The amateurs were incouraged to get rich quick,"everybodies doin it", it was not so much the stocks passing,from the rich to the poor as it was the stocks passing from the smart to the dumb, it was like a pyramid scheme,the ones that get in at the end lose, of course, also many that had put all their eggs in one basket lost too.

In the summer of 1928, prices continued to soar, prices in 1927 were very over inflated, but late in 1928 and in the the summer of 1929 they were preposterous.

The Fed decided that the only way that speculators would come out of their speculation madness, would be if they were shaken out of it, The Fed said, that "we will just let it go and keep hands off", the Fed did not want to precipitate the crash, that they knew was coming.

But even the Fed did not fully realise the grave consequences of the situation, another problem was the amount out on margine debt (credit) over 6 billion $, finally reaching over 7 billion, equal to probably $200 billion in todays money (todays margine debt is at 265 billion dollars).

Early in september of 1929 the market broke and many wise people ( mostly pros) saw that the market was milked as far as it could go and started takng their money out of it,which caused it to drop about 20% which wiped out the margines (credit) of many amateur traders.

Then many giant stock holders could see what was coming and dumped huge blocks of stock of 20,000,10,000,5,000 and 1,000 shares on the market, this in turn wiped out more margine of many others, who kept hanging on.

Then there was forced selling, when brokers told their clients, that their margine (credit) had been wiped out,which a few days later turned into panic and fear, which goes to show that every market, sooner or later (including todays market) will surely find its true value.

The Markets of the 1920s were riding the wave of the new inventions of the electronic age and the automobile age;and many other gadgets were being mass produced, which put many people to work; also credit was easy, so people could buy these gadgets.

The problems started, when most of these new items like autos, radios, refrigerators, etc., began to saturate the market.

Most of the stock values on those things were very much over inflated, just as computer stocks are today.

Todays markets are very similar, but much worse, and are riding on the wave of computer tech stocks, as well as borrowed money (the national debt), and personal debt; also one problem with computer stocks is that they are very unstable stocks.

Anytime there is a power outage, the value of these "Dot Com" stocks take hits and it would be easy for fear and panic to set in, because of some unforseen problem, also most of the "Dot coms" are still priced at an average of 25 times, their potential earnings ratio, some; as much as 200 times.

Right now computers are starting to saturate the market and reach their limit, yet there are giant inventories of computer goods on the shelves.

The Stock market is just a barometer of the market value, as a whole; but there are always those that manipulate this "barometer", for their own gains.

But the greater danger now, is that we have run up the most incredible debt in the history of mankind, $5,887,000,000,000, and it is increasing at $464,000,000, per day, also personal debt in this country is trillions of dollars.

Another severe problem has been that in this "boom" period from 1990-2001, when we were riding the "computer wave" credit went up 400%, but wages only went up 10%, so people have gone heavily in to debt to buy all of the modern tech. stuff, and the average credit card holder is in debt $8,000, and in a time where things are starting to wind down, and many people are getting thrown out of work.

Our balance of trade is now running at Minus $400,000,000,000 per year, we have a soft currency not backed by siver or gold,we have a giant army to support, and we are trying to take care of the rest of the world's problems by being the world's policeman.

In 1929 we had virtually no debt, and no giant army to support, and we had a currency backed by silver and gold.

The way it is now as long as this unpayable debt is hanging over us like an ax, the ax can fall at any time, and when it does we could be just weeks away from acute disaster, but we do not know exactly when it is going to fall.

In Spite of this great "surplus", that we are told that we have, we cannot do much, but pay the interest on the debt.

But any kind of a major setback,or natural disaster could cause the debt to explode completly out of control and crack the whole financial wall and economic structure of the country wide open,right now we are just barely able to pay the $400 billion a year interest on the debt,which is an amount that most countries dont even take in.

What happens when we cannot pay it? This debt is like a giant dam holding ten times more water than it should be holding,the cracks are starting to appear,it is starting to groan,the workers are going around dabbing thimbles full of cement on it (The Fed),The manager (Greenspan) of the dam keeps telling everybody ,"everything is alright!, "we can put more water into the dam indefinitely', until one day unexpectedly, the whole thing comes crashing down with a resounding roar , that takes, everything and everyone with it right down the river and out to the sea; and it will be a roar, that will be heard around the world.

Since this original letter was written about a year ago ,the Dow Jones Averages have been stale mated in a narrow range, but lately down 1500 points

The Nasdaq market has suffered incredible losses,about 4 trillion dollars, this is money that will not be coming back into the market, because the professionals dont have the leverage of the amateur's money to throw around, any longer.

All together about 6 Trillion dollars has been lost

In 1929 the market Crashed in October, but it wasn't until early 1930, that most of the people really knew the great significance of what had happened.

The market continued down for 34 months; losing 86% of its value, inspite of the Fed lowering rates eight times, and the market didn't come back to its 1929 level, until 1954.

Right now the blow has been struck; we are like the Titanic; who had the mortal wound, after striking the iceberg; only very few knew it.

Many of the Amateurs have been wiped out, and many of the pros have gotten out, while the gettin was good.

Either the investor's margine (credit) has been wiped out, or they are very cautious or scared to put a great deal of money back into the market.

Also in spite of hearing about the great surplus, that we are supposed to have,the National debt stands at $5,888,000,000,000.00,and is still increasing. at 464 mill. a day

This debt was built up in good times and the government has been able to do nothing, but pay the interest on debt.

What happens when the bad times come?

Re:our national debt (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817906)

As my friend Ralph would say, IT'S THE JEWS! Those money worshipping rats.

I hate CmdrTaco (-1)

LinuxIsForAssholes (527253) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817784)

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Or you could chose option 4. (2, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817793)

When you do an install of FreeBSD, you can just choose the 'windowmaker desktop' option.

Why pick yet another Linux Distro (This is this weeks Distro of the week) when you can pick FreeBSD, an OS that has shipped with a NeXTish interface for years.

(Oh, and you get to avoid GNOME or KDE bloat, at least until you install gnumeric.)

Re:Or you could chose option 4. (1)

Ashcrow (469400) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817907)

A good amount of Linux distros and other BSD's have also shipped with NeXTish interfaces for years. It seems that this is just supose to be a super simple distrobution that uses only GNUstep.

Re:Or you could chose option 4. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817919)

Uh, it's a set of libraries, not a wondow manager.

Why Linux?? (5, Insightful)

aztektum (170569) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817794)

That's not meant as a flame. I'm just curious why they chose Linux instead of a BSD. I don't exactly care to follow the licensing terms behind all the different open/free software so I'm unaware if that's an issue, but using a BSD would seem to be a wiser choice being that they're "trying" to get an OS X on x86.

I dunno.

Re:Why Linux?? (2, Interesting)

kawlyn (154590) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817879)

I would agree, why Linux. Specifically why not Darwin, which arguably is OSX.

OK perhaps darwin isn't ready for prime time, but hey....

Re:Why Linux?? (1)

maeglin (23145) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817883)

That's not meant as a flame. I'm just curious why they chose Linux instead of a BSD. I don't exactly care to follow the licensing terms behind all the different open/free software so I'm unaware if that's an issue, but using a BSD would seem to be a wiser choice being that they're "trying" to get an OS X on x86.

Well, it's probably something along the lines of this reasoning..

Developer A: Hey, before we start working on GNUStep, shouldn't we decide on a license?
Developer B: What? It's already GNU you idiot. That's what the GNU is for. Get the hell out of here.. And leave my Cocoa Crispies...


At least, that's what I would do.

GNUStep (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817795)

GNUStep is arguably more impoartant than KDE or GNOME for the future of linux, and it deserves a larger audience (for testing, etc), and it can be a pain to configure, compile, and install, so a distro is good for those reasons.

However, I'm not sure it's ready yet. redraws are slower than mollasses headed uphill in January, and the sample applications (what little there is) are characterized by a lack of features and a tendency to crash.

When GNUStep is ready for prime time, I'll be happy. Hopefully, this can help that day come sooner

er... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817797)

The alpha version of the x86-based OS is available for download and boots off the 110 MB bootable CD
"In related news, running water is again available and may be let from the faucet and is protected by a new seal ensuring the authentic freshness of pristine mountain Maine in every bottle of Poland Springs mineral water."

I hate CmdrTaco (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817798)

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Good to see (4, Insightful)

Laxitive (10360) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817802)


I remember trying to get GnuStep to work a few months back. The code compiled pretty cleanly, and I played around a bit with the development framework for GNUStep (which is rather cool btw, makes writing build files for apps extremely clean, and ObjectiveC is an extremely nice language).

I just wish there was a better way of integrating GNUStep, KDE, and Gnome. I really think a concerted effort by all three teams to support a common base (common component interfaces, clipboard, look&feel configuration files) would be beneficial for all involved.

GNUStep brings with it a good, tried&true development framework.

KDE & Gnome are both more evolved, with more and better applications.

Getting these to work together would be a worthwhile proposition.

-Laxitive

Often, mixes turn out to be worse than the parts (1, Flamebait)

Improv (2467) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817855)

Imagine mixing steak and Jello. Sound good? Not
to me, anyhow. Often the same kind of thing happens
when you try to mix different systems together.
You get a mess of different APIs, all with different
ideas about what a string is or what kind of
API discipline is to be used. You also end up with
3 different look'n'feels, and a very complex
development learning curve.

Re:Often, mixes turn out to be worse than the part (0, Offtopic)

davechen (247143) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817945)


Mmmmmmm. Jello steak.

Interesting, PowerPC version? (4, Interesting)

Arcturax (454188) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817811)

Looks like it is x86 for now. Anyone know if they are aiming for a PPC version as well?

Of course that may be a bit pointless given you can get Mac OS X which is more mature, but it would still be interesting to see it.

What willbe really interesting is if this becomes kine of like a "Mine", allowing PC users to run some select Mac OS X software along with their Linux apps. Think of this as a way for Apple to take a more back door foray into the x86 world, to expand use of Apple's software and show people how cool some of Apple's software on the Mac is by getting iTunes and such to run on this thing. It would certainly give PC users who used this (who I admit would likely not be your run of the mill PC user) a taste of Apple's world without them having to go out and purchase a Mac right away.

Maybe wishful thinking, but any alternative to the current status quo (i.e. Windows) is welcome at this point even if it doesn't do all I hope it eventually can.

Re:Interesting, PowerPC version? (3, Insightful)

foonf (447461) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817887)

What willbe really interesting is if this becomes kine of like a "Mine", allowing PC users to run some select Mac OS X software along with their Linux apps.


Pretty unlikely. Remember, its partially *source* compatible. OS X PowerPC binaries compiled against Cocoa cannot possibly run under Linux/GNUstep on x86. Since most Mac software is distributed commercial in binary-only form its unlikely that any of it will be instantly available on linux, and even if it is, they are as likely to port it using something "standard" like Qt even if it means rewriting much of the program, than to try to get it to work with GNUStep in its present form.

And certainly software sold by Apple itself, like iTunes, is about as likely to be ported to linux as, say, Microsoft Office, GNUstep or no.

Re:Interesting, PowerPC version? (5, Interesting)

Rob Parkhill (1444) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818010)

[sigh], if only OS X and GNUstep were just a little bit more like NeXTstep, and this wouldn't be a problem.

NeXTstep has something called "fat binaries". It means that the same application that runs on my 68040 NeXT machine will also run on my HP and Intel machines running NeXTstep. When I compile my application, I simply tell the compiler to compile for all these platforms.

Sure, the binaries end up being bigger (about 50% larger for each platform, if I recall), but it was completely painless, and you could use "lipo" to reduce the binary size (and make the application only run on a single platform) if you wanted.

Yes sir, this was state-of-the-art back in 1992. 10 years later, it's all but disapeared.

I hate CmdrTaco (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817812)

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does this distro give the experience of using NeXT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817824)

I have always wanted to use a NeXT station , but i never got round to buying one ,what do slashdot users think of the user experience of simply gnustep in comparison of using a "real" NeXTStep machine .

As close as you'll get... (2)

Nijika (525558) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817923)

Afterstep. But trust me, NeXT compared to what we have available now is no revolution. Once you use a NeXT station for any ammount of time the curiosity will ware off :)

Same goes for SGI.

openstep (3, Insightful)

Syre (234917) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817828)

Back when Apple bought NeXT, I wrote a letter to Jobs suggesting that he release NeXTstep for every platform, make it open source, and become one of the standard APIs that developers use.

My point was that if he did this, and developers did adopt the platform, he'd end up with lots of apps that would run on the Mac, and would thereby neutralize the Windows API proprietary boondoggle.

He ignored my advice at the time, and this is nice, but too little too late to solve the problem of creating a true platform-independent API that developers would want to write to.

what's the point???? (1, Flamebait)

Noodlenose (537591) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817866)

What's the point having another Next-ish, Linux based OS if you can have OS X on your desktop? I really don't see any sense in developing more Unix dialects. This just adds to the dilution of a stable Microsoft opposition. D

Re:what's the point???? (1)

JanneM (7445) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817935)

Tell me, just for arguments' sake, exactly how you get OsX on to an x86 machine? Or are you suggesting we all ditch our current hardware and buy all new stuff?

/Janne

The point is price. (1)

yerricde (125198) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817971)

What's the point having another Next-ish, Linux based OS if you can have OS X on your desktop?

Price. It's possible to build an x86-based PC for cheaper than $800 (the lowest price of a new Macintosh computer).

OS X doesn't run on my Alpha (2)

DarkMan (32280) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818045)

Or my Athalon, or any of the Sparcs, or really anything that I have lying around generally

It means I don't have to by a new box to run it.

And I don't use anything to oppose Microsoft, I do use it becuase I prefer it, I can configure it the way I want, and I know that it lets me interface cleanly with the *NIX machines I use, ranging from OpenBSD firewall to UNICOS supercomputers.

Besides, if you'd actually read about it, you'd know that it uses Objective C, and fits in at the level of GNOME and KDE. It's not a kernel.

If this works out completely... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817878)

it'll be Apple that Linux is a threat to, not Microsoft.

Corrections (4, Informative)

MouseR (3264) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817890)

based on the GNUstep architecture, originally built by NeXT (OpenSTEP) and is now also used by MacOSX (Cocoa).

The above is wrong. The original NeXT Computer OS was called NeXTSTEP (notice capitalisation--it's important in what follows). When NeXT Computer ditched hardware, it became "NeXT Software", and spun off it's OS (in the 3.x version) into a cross platform OS called OpenStep (4.x).

This OS was to run on Sun, Intel and NeXT boxes. The API was modified, and made public (the API, not implementation).

This API specification was called OPENSTEP (capitalisation differs from the NeXT Software OS name).

GNUStep is therefore based on the OPENSTEP specification. No other permutation of name and inheritance is correct.

Re:Corrections (2)

Rob Parkhill (1444) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817953)

> The original NeXT Computer OS was called NeXTSTEP
> (notice capitalisation--it's important in what
> follows).

Oh so close, but not quite. The original OS was NeXTstep. Got changed to NeXTSTEP around 3.0.

This is cool... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817920)

but dand we all do not have a puter with a bootable cd-rom

As a Mac OS X user... (1)

christurkel (520220) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817924)

I havew a spiffy UI on top of Unix anyway but I amw atching this with interest, for my aging ThinkPad , which chokes on KDE/GNOME.

Window managers vs. Graphical environments (1)

DRO0 (252117) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817925)

Newbie-ish question here, so please forgive...

Is functionality like copying from one graphical app and pasting to another determined by the graphical environment (GNOME, KDE) or the window manager (Enlightenment, Sawfish)?

Sometimes I can easily copy/paste between apps, while other times it just doesn't happen. Chances are good that I'm being a dolt, but it's one of my biggest complaints about the X-GUI's.

I used WindowMaker a long time ago, and it was fast and slick while GNOME + Enlightenment were functional, but SLOW for a while (>2 years ago when I first tried them). Now GNOME + Enlightenment performs well on my machine so I've been using that, but I wouldn't mind checking out WindowMaker again...

Screenshots, please. (3, Insightful)

2Bits (167227) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817926)

What's so hard to grab some screenshots and put them up there? I've used the NeXT machines before, and have used WindowsMaker, so I know what to expect. But still, I'd like to see screenshots. And if it looks ugly, I won't even bother. And I want to see the boot up screen too.

And you can get more users to try it out too, if they can see something before they download that 110MB of data. Even at that "small size", it's still a lot, for people like me who don't have access to high speed internet.

Re:Screenshots, please. (1)

jdgreen7 (524066) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818020)

As far as the download goes, I'm on a 384K Frame Relay and I'm only getting a 6.8 k/s download right now... Not much better than dial-up. I probably shouldn't have started downloading as soon as the page hit /.

:)

Download doesn't work (3, Informative)

xtremex (130532) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817930)

I went to the site and the ISO they have for download doesnt exist! stage1.iso.zip isnt there!
:(

Re:Download doesn't work (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818028)

Because everyone saying "boohoo, this sucks, why do we need it" are going and dl'ing it.

Not there yet. (4, Informative)

foonf (447461) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817932)

I downloaded the ISO and tried to boot into it. Immediately the kernel fb support gave an "unsupported display mode" error. I checked the available modes and there was nothing but text modes available. I have a Matrox G400, which is very well supported by the kernel framebuffer drivers. In fact I use the fb console at 1024x768 on my real linux installation without problems.

The startup looked interesting, at any rate. It failed to detect my NIC (a pretty standard DEC Tulip card) and gave a few other errors I can't remember. Then it tried to run X, but since it was configured to use the framebuffer driver, which wasn't working, it choked. Needless to say if they had at least allowed the option of using the XFree86 accelerated drivers, it would have been fine, but they don't. So then the system shut itself down. This worked ok, except their kernel is compiled without APM support, so it didn't actually turn itself off.

Oh well. I'll try it again later, seems like a decent idea really.

who needs another *linux distribution? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817937)

Just run BSD.

Less Information (1)

spineboy (22918) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817962)

They could have lessinformation about the software, but that would be hardsince there would only be a blank page.

Simplicity is key (2, Insightful)

xt (225814) | more than 12 years ago | (#2817984)

I think the really interesting part is the IDE; If you have a fairly simple way to extend your computer experience, you get a little more attached to what you use and enjoy it a lot more.

Don't forget there are a lot of intelligent people who enjoy tinkering with things (computers and OSes included) but can't afford to spend too much time...

If the developers also choose a well rounded set of applications, then we'll have an interesting alternative to packing a zillion apps (almost) noone will use and creating yet another distro that confuses users about the choices, rather than being itself an alternative choice.

By having something simple you can use and extend, you are also a lot more motivated to actually use it and stick with it, rather than observe at amazement and then go back to .

Perhaps, simplicity is itself a choice sorely missed all too often nowadays...

Not truly unix.... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817990)

The slashdot drinking game.

Requires:

Several friends.
An entire day to waste drunk.
Numerous servings of the alcoholic beverage of your choice. Beer would be safer than hard stuff, because you'll be

drinking alot.


Often, we see the same things day in and day out on slashdot. Why not use
it as an excuse to get drunk?


Rules:


1.Start around 9am, EST, when it's reasonable to assume hordes of
slashdotters will have gotten to work and begun wasting the day trying to
get first post on their company's fat pipe. (If you can actually drink at
work, post where you work. I'll send my resume)
1a. If you can't get all your friends together for an all day
binge, start at night with the oldest article.


2. Play ends when everyone has passed out, puked, or surrendered. Last one
drinking wins. Play shall be suspended if anyone is rushed to the hospital
for alcohol poisoning.


3.For every article with grevious spelling or grammatical errors on the
front page, drink a shot.


4.For every front page broken link, drink a shot.


5.For every JonKatzBot article, drink two shots.
5a. Read the article.
5b. Drink a shot for every appearance of the phrase "coporate
republic"


6.Drink a shot if the first post on a new article is remotely on topic.
6a. Drink another shot if it gets modded up to +5 funny
6b. Drink Two shots if it gets modded to +5 interesting or
insightful.
6c. If someone has moderator points, and blows them all on modding
the first poster up, then that player need not drink, no matter how unfair
the moderating.


7. Drink a shot for every link to goatse.cx
7a. Drink a shot for every ASCII version of the goatse.cx pic
presented in the comments.


8. Drink half a shot for every comment that mentions either:
a. Natalie Portman
b. Beowulf Clusters


9. Drink a shot for every offtopic comment involving the sexual escapades
of any slashdot staff.


10.Drink a shot if the slashdot fortune was generated with a script.


11. Drink a shot for every poster who has a porn site link in their sig.


12. Drink a shot for every sig that mentions anonymous cowards.


13. Drink a shot if someone has their UID in their sig, or mentions it.


14. Drink a shot for any comment that has been moderated to hell (IE,
moderated =
15. Any player who has Karma greater than 26 gets to skip the first drink
15a. greater than 40 skips 2 drinks
15b. = 50 skips 3 drinks
15c. less than -1, one drink penalty
15d. less than -8 two drink penalty


Have fun!

download link is dead (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2817993)

I think they moved the zipped iso off the server or something, the link to it is dead...

Does not seem to be available for download (1, Interesting)

starseeker (141897) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818015)

The file is there, at http://simplygnustep.sourceforge.net/downloads/sta ge-1.iso.zip.0 but the permissions are wrong and the link on the page is wrong. Doesn't look like they'll let us grab it yet.

They must have known the slashdot effect was coming.

first reaction (1)

sewagemaster (466124) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818041)

The cool thing about Simply GNUstep is its partial source compatibility with MacOSX programs (further compatibility is still worked on)

since office runs on the mac... maybe we'll see office run on Simply GNUstep (soon)?

Anybody look at the screenshot of GNUstep (0)

xg0blin (547154) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818053)

It looks like a sideways, ugly version of Afterstep to me....

well.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2818056)

it would be nice if we could download the damned thing...

great (0, Flamebait)

MarkoNo5 (139955) | more than 12 years ago | (#2818057)

If you take a 2.2 kernel. I have yet to see a 2.4 kernel that will run for a few days without crashing on my machines. Of course I have to use 2.4.xx.yy.zz with the u.v.w VM. That's what they've been telling ever since 2.4 was released. The moment FreeBSD fixes its install program, I'm gonna switch. I hate running stone-age technology.

Let me guess, troll or flamebait.

Marko No. 5
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