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Chromatic On The Wiki Plugin For Slash

chrisd posted more than 12 years ago | from the man-that's-some-fine-hosting-software dept.

Apache 104

lisam writes: "The Wiki plugin integrates nicely with Slash and has a lot of cool features, says Chromatic who introduces Wikis and gives a detailed explanation of how and why the Wiki plugin works in this OnLamp article. (chromatic is coauthor of O'Reilly's upcoming Running Weblogs with Slash.)" A lot of people just think of Slashdot style sites when thinking of the Slash codebase, but this article goes on about how to extend slash in cool ways. If you are interested in plugins, the repository is a good place to start.

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883766)

you heard me

-metrollica

haha, 3 mod downs, i'm not logged in stupids (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883848)

haha, 3 mod downs on parent first post, i'm not logged in stupid moderators. i guess everyone is jealous of my first post or maybe they just want me banned.

i was modded down first, hence i have indeed made a true first post. these other so called "first posts" showed up many seconds after mine.

and now an idea cmdrtaco should incorporate into the slashcode. include seconds on all posts, whether it be journal entries, comments, and everything else. this way it will eliminate flamewars between posters who fight over who has the real first post. if this was done before it would prove i have the real first post on this here story.

thank you

-metrollica

Re:haha, 3 mod downs, i'm not logged in stupids (-1)

Anomymous Coward (303315) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883922)

yea, sorting by "oldest first" makes arguments obsolete, jackass.

you could also look at the comment id number (#2883848 for you) and compare it ... it's just an incremented number, really easy to see which came first.

Re:haha, 3 mod downs, i'm not logged in stupids (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2884084)

yeah, i see. well i may be a jackass but i still got first post!

-metrollica

Re:haha, 3 mod downs, i'm not logged in stupids (-1)

Mode0x13 (550144) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886777)

We all know that "trolling" is a disease. It increases the signal to noise ratio of discussions. It annoys users who have something informative to say. And it exposes readers to goatsex, homosexuality, and frighteningly deviant behavior. However, that is not all.



Many of the most obsessive trolls want their work to be seen. These sad, lonely souls want to create a disturbance, ANY disturbance, in the small world of slashdot. Hence trolling relies on a cheap, easy source of karma for "dummy accounts." Some of these are "karma burn" accounts that are used to post offensive material with a +2 bonus, exposing more people to the troll. Some are even used to mod up fellow trolls.



The obvious solution, of course, is "karma whoring," the practice of making insipid, cravenly conformist comments to please the moderators. Who would spend months slowly polishing an account, with insightful and informative comments, only to throw it away on goatsex and gibberish? No: for these "trollers," whoring themselves out is the only possible way to get their posts seen by more than a small, sad clique.



I used to think the editors were arrogant and hypocritical for their policy in the discussion groups. But now I see why their policies are needed. The trolls are destroying slashdot. Post by post, line by line, they are driving away the readers who created this site.


Who is your typical troll? A teenage loser, probably gay, who whiles away the day at slashdot, hoping to impress losers even more pathetic than himself. Responsible readers of the site should not be exposed to this filth. Most trolls are neither clever nor funny. They look like what they are: the crude efforts of frustrated children. Long live moderation.



- Mode 13 hex

Re:haha, 3 mod downs, i'm not logged in stupids (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886937)

A beautiful Meta-Troll, sir!

I must admit that I am not gay, although after regular exposure to the Slashdot ethos, I am willing to experiment.

Do you want to be the Daddy? If so, get down here and suck Mummy's cock!

Wiki + slash = cool idea (0)

core10k (196263) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884005)

I like. A lot more imaginative than a lot of other nonsense that gets shoe-horned into programs as 'plug-ins'.

A haiku just for you (-1)

Tasty Beef Jerky (543576) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884047)

I claim this first post
Anonymous Cowards suck
You have no power

AMERICA ATTACKED -- AGAIN (-1, Flamebait)

Lord of The Trolls (553045) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884619)

Terrorists have attacked the United States again.

The White House, the Capitol Building, and the United Nations building are smoldering in ruins. Thousands of government officials are dead.

There are reports of further attacks in Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Seattle, and Miami. Rumors are surfacing that the heart of Los Angeles was attacked using multiple 10-ton ammonium nitrate truck bombs detonated in multiple locations.

President Bush and Vice President Cheney are believed dead in the White House destruction.

Nuclear strikes have been launched by the United States military against the Phillipines, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, and Somolia. All of these countries have been hit by at least five Titan II ICBM's and millions are believed to be dead.

Martial law has been declared and the media outlets have agreed under force to continue normal programming. Government officials who weren't killed in the attacks are now attempting to run the country from the bunkers under the White House.

I suggest you all stop what you are doing and spend some time with your families, because quite frankly, World War 3 is upon us.

More details to come.

wooowoo (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883769)

yeahhhhh

FP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883770)

Dare I dream?

Re:FP (-1)

Carp Flounderson (542291) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884369)

Well you know what I always say... can't win, don't try.

Thanks for the article. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883772)

It has just enough information in it to lure me in, but not enough to actually do anything serious with Slash.

I guess I'll have to buy the book...

This is what's known in industry parlance as... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883937)

advertising.

I wonder.... (2, Insightful)

IIOIOOIOO (517375) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883786)

If the slash codebase could be extended to show when an Administrator moderates your comments?

Re:I wonder.... (5, Interesting)

Afrosheen (42464) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883804)

I'd like to see a list of my posts, along with who moderated them to what level. Moderators should be given more responsibility to do what's right, i.e. mod up interesting/insightful posts rather than mod down trolls. Trolls and redundant/flame posts are not hard to mod down but an AC that posts something good is difficult to mod up at times.

Consider balancing the karma system..if you give someone moderator rights, and 5 points, make 2 of those negative points and the remaining 3 positive.

Re:I wonder.... (3, Interesting)

IIOIOOIOO (517375) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883839)

I disagree.... Honestly, I worry that seeing who axed your last post might encourage retributive axing of their later post. Although, you increase the number of available points, make them positive-only, and introduce a time-based rating decay. That way, posts in which no one saw redeeming value would fairly quickly degrade off of the average users page-view.

Re:I wonder.... (1)

notfancy (113542) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884964)

I disagree.... Honestly, I worry that seeing who axed your last post might encourage retributive axing of their later post.

Human nature being what it is...:-). Seriously, though, I think that for better or worse, the mod system works, in this sense: Slashdot has an "Uber-editor", a virtual entity composed of the individual effort of every moderator. I might not agree with this "Uber-editor" slant, but that's expected; and I have the option of not reading /..

Look at this from the economic viewpoint (the laws of the market...) or from the complex systems viewpoint (emrgent behavior); either way, I think it makes sense and explains the "feeling" I have of /..

Re:I wonder.... (1)

sinserve (455889) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883883)

>I'd like to see a list of my posts, along with who moderated them to what level.

If they did, poor malda's "foes" page, would be slashdoted.

Re:I wonder.... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883909)

Plastic.com's karma costs 2 points to mod down an article, vs 1 point to mod up... I think this works well with putting the focus on modding up instead of modding down.

And I also believe that most people here with mod points spend them all modding down people they don't agree with than modding up people they do... Thats not consistent with the spirit of free debate and discussion, imho..

And as such, I must post this anonymously out of fear of losing my precious karma to some idgit who doesn't "agree with me".. sigh..

Re:I wonder.... (1)

Howie (4244) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885017)

And I also believe that most people here with mod points spend them all modding down people they don't agree with than modding up people they do...

According to the FAQ, whether you agree with them or not isn't supposed to be relevant in either case! "Try to be impartial about this. Simply disagreeing with a comment is not a valid reason to mark it down. Likewise, agreeing with a comment is not a valid reason to mark it up. "

Re:I wonder.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883939)

one step ahead of you ... here [slashdot.org]

you should also note the title of that page, meta-slashdot discussion ... for discussing things pertaining to slashdot itself, to keep the article discussions on topic.

Re:I wonder.... (2)

Isldeur (125133) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884007)

Yes, and another thing about moderating. I've been refusing to moderate for a few months simply because I've noted that you can loose _your own_ karma for moderating.

This seems totally pointless to me. Do you want objective moderating or do you want moderators bending their choices to what the believe everyone else is doing/going to do?

Re:I wonder.... (2, Interesting)

notfancy (113542) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885004)

Yes, and another thing about moderating. I've been refusing to moderate for a few months simply because I've noted that you can loose your own karma for moderating.

I thought that was what karma means...It makes you think before you mod down ("do I really want to loose one karma point on this post?"), and it makes you think before you mod up ("do I really want to loose one karma point on this post?"). Either way, you think before you mod (I am tempted to add a "QED", but I'm reading too much Dijkstra lately, and I'm slowly appreciating the inherent ugliness in case analysis. If only I could come up with a constructive proof that "karma works").

Re:I wonder.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2885154)

aaah! Both of you: lose, one o.
Just so ya know.

Re:I wonder.... (2)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886834)

Do you want objective moderating or do you want moderators bending their choices to what the believe everyone else is doing/going to do?

Isn't it obvious? Just about everything about the way Slashdot works is geared to producing mediocrity. The karma cap, the 20 second rule, the two minute rule the lameness filter, metamod. All of these things are based on 'averages' rather then quality. Malda's moderation system is a huge and complex beast that annoys posters as much as it does stop crap.

Yeh, some good stuff floats to the top, but so do some pretty lame things as well. (like unchecked facts, and bullshit trolls). It's almost like /. has an anti-intellectual focus.

Hell, the only reason I'm here is basically to sig-spam for autopr0n.com.

Re:I wonder.... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2884077)

Someone who teaches at a Middle School in Safety Harbor, Florida forwarded the following letter.
The letter was sent to the principal's office after the school had sponsored a luncheon for the elderly. An old lady received a new radio at the lunch, and was writing to say thanks.


Dear Safety Harbor Middle School:

I know God blesses you for the beautiful radio I won at your recent Senior citizens luncheon. I am 84 years old and live at the Safety Harbor Assisted Home for the Aged. All of my family has passed away. I am all alone now and it's nice to know that someone is thinking of me. God bless you for your kindness to an old forgotten lady.

My roommate is 95 and always had her own radio, but before I received One she would never let me listen to hers, even when she was napping. The other day her radio fell off the nightstand and broke into a lot of pieces. It was awful and she was in tears. She asked if she could listen to mine, and I said fuck you. Thank you again,

Sincerely,

Edna

scoop (kuro5hin engine) allows this (2)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886819)

the kuro5hin moderation systems is far, far supperior to slashdot's. Not only can you see all the moderations done to you, but also everyone can moderate (although only select users can hide posts) and the score is the average rather then the addtive total.

As opposed to the slashdot system which is just hack after hack...

Oh... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883819)

This post is offtopic, but the reply is insightful?

Re:Oh... (-1)

Mode0x13 (550144) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886788)

Very well. You shall have... insight!



We all know that "trolling" is a disease. It increases the signal to noise ratio of discussions. It annoys users who have something informative to say. And it exposes readers to goatsex, homosexuality, and frighteningly deviant behavior. However, that is not all.



Many of the most obsessive trolls want their work to be seen. These sad, lonely souls want to create a disturbance, ANY disturbance, in the small world of slashdot. Hence trolling relies on a cheap, easy source of karma for "dummy accounts." Some of these are "karma burn" accounts that are used to post offensive material with a +2 bonus, exposing more people to the troll. Some are even used to mod up fellow trolls.



The obvious solution, of course, is "karma whoring," the practice of making insipid, cravenly conformist comments to please the moderators. Who would spend months slowly polishing an account, with insightful and informative comments, only to throw it away on goatsex and gibberish? No: for these "trollers," whoring themselves out is the only possible way to get their posts seen by more than a small, sad clique.



I used to think the editors were arrogant and hypocritical for their policy in the discussion groups. But now I see why their policies are needed. The trolls are destroying slashdot. Post by post, line by line, they are driving away the readers who created this site.


Who is your typical troll? A teenage loser, probably gay, who whiles away the day at slashdot, hoping to impress losers even more pathetic than himself. Responsible readers of the site should not be exposed to this filth. Most trolls are neither clever nor funny. They look like what they are: the crude efforts of frustrated children. Long live moderation.



- Mode 13 hex

Re:I wonder.... (2, Interesting)

Fishstick (150821) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883827)

Interesting idea, why don't you ask taco [slashdot.org] ? ;-)

Early post!!! (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883787)

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Re:Early post!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2885399)

Lookit that! CmdrTaco lengthening his own page!!! What has Slashdot come to....

Re:Early post!!! (-1)

Mode0x13 (550144) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886821)

[goatse.cx]
Yet more evidence of the progressive deterioration of slashdot. Unless an infusion of quality-certified microsoft software is made soon, slashdot may become a blasted wasteland.

fdfg

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

\\

\

.

We must never surrender. We will fight in the articles, we will fight in the hidden sids, we will defend our trolling by keyboard and by mouse. Trolling today, trolling tomorrow, trolling FOREVER!!!!!!!!!

hahashfsdfhhahahahahahah HAAAAAAAHA HAH HA HA HA HA HA

.

.

.

woot.

.

.

.

I Claim this FP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883823)

I claim this first post in the name of the glorious Queen of Spain!!

Y'know (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883825)

. . . No one cares.

Re:Y'know (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883840)

That was fast. It was. *BWAP* Modded down. Hey, look! Mod this one down too!

Whack-a-post!

Comic service, perhaps? (1)

Animol (120579) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883832)

As a big fan of Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com] (And who isn't?) I decided a while back to start my own webcomic. I thought that a sort of personal-diary thing to go along with it would be nice and all. I looked into blogger and some of the others but didn't find anything quite what I wanted. I think this news may make my search a little easier, since I can use slash (which I know and love) to take care of some of the gruntwork behind my site.

Re:Comic service, perhaps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883915)

I am not a big fan of Penny Arcade.

Re:Comic service, perhaps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2885170)

Me neither.

you *LOVE* slash??? (2)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886845)

Geez man, you should really get out. There are a lot of server-side setups that would do you a lot better, and be a lot easier to setup and use. scoop is good, a lot of PHP things, etc.

I mean slashdot is OK if you want something exactly like slashdot... but for a simple weblog it's totaly overkill.

fuck that guy! (-1)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883873)

fuck that guy! [fuckthatguy.com]

Chromatic's book (3, Insightful)

Zico (14255) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883876)

I've always thought chromatic had some interesting things to say here as a poster, and am curious about how much detail he goes into in his book about Slashcode. Also, not just the code itself, but the ethics involved in running such a site.


For example, does he (or do you, if you happen to be reading this, chromatic) go into things like the admins using "bitchslaps" on their users, and when they should/shouldn't. Or from a somewhat disturbing example from the past week (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=26315&cid=285 0660 [slashdot.org] ), does he discuss things like scripts which flood the stories with "Offtopic" moderations, basically using (abusing?) the admin power to instantly try to squelch both user and moderator opinions? Any philosophical discussions about whether there is any point in giving users moderation power for any reason to shut them up for a while, seeing as there isn't really much point in moderation when some admin with a chip on his shoulder is going to come by and stomp on everyone's opinions by using his unlimited mod points to make sure that something stays marked "Offtopic" (over 250 so far)?


Good luck with the book, chromatic, like I was saying, you're one of the better posters here!

Re:Chromatic's book (4, Informative)

mwalker (66677) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883995)

I think your comment really belongs in the hidden Slash META discussion [slashdot.org] started by CmdrTaco. CmdrTaco is currently answering questions there from all comers, so now's your chance. You can even ask him what he thinks of chromatic and Wikis, which are a move towards more community trust rather than less.

And no I am not Offtopic; I'm trying to transfer the Offtopic people into their own discussion.

Taco: chmod -x /usr/sbin/bitchslap (2)

Zen Mastuh (456254) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884044)

Moderation Totals: Offtopic=265, Flamebait=4, Troll=26, Redundant=3, Insightful=69, Interesting=154, Informative=32, Funny=8, Overrated=11, Underrated=46, Total=618

It's true then. I always ignored the "Michael censors..." crybaby posts written by hormonally challenged teens, but now someone has presented some real evidence that editors bitchslap accounts. I'm sure it only happens to trolls and crapflooders, but I'm still disappointed. Ban IPs or delete accounts if you must, but don't abuse the moderation system that you want your users to hold sacred.

Re:Taco: chmod -x /usr/sbin/bitchslap (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2885104)

The big problem is that it doesn't just happen to trolls and crapflooders. Moderate someone in a way that the Slashdot admins don't agree with, and you might find that your whole account has been bitchslapped. Check out http://211.9.115.254/slashdot/sdot-bs2.html [211.9.115.254] for a good example of this, which also includes comments from Rob.

Re:Taco: chmod -x /usr/sbin/bitchslap (2)

namespan (225296) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886795)

Ban IPs or delete accounts if you must, but don't abuse the moderation system that you want your users to hold sacred.

Good heavens. You'd rather have an entire account deleted -- essentially kicking a user off the system -- than having them modded down? Render ALL their posts TOTALLY invisible rather than simply modded below someone elses reading threshold?

Remember, moding someone down DOESN'T make their comment invisible. It makes them invisible to those who've decided to trust the moderators (and, as everyone now knows, the "fascist" slashdot editors) and set their threshold higher than a certain level. And even then, the system reminds them there are comments below their threshold.

I think mostly people take their post visibility and karma WAY too seriously. I've only had one or two ever unfairly moderated by ANYONE, editor or average joe I know not. I've had lots of intelligent posts totally ignored. I've had a few fatuous ones moded up. The moderation system isn't perfect. But by and large, when I do my best to post intelligently, I find my comments eventually get noticed, no matter where they fall on the point spectrum, and more often than not, they get awarded a mod point or two.

The system works for me, and probably works for most slashdot readers, which is why they're still here.

Re:Chromatic's book (4, Informative)

chromatic (9471) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884172)

Thank you for the kind words.

Chapter 8 of the book is all about the mechanics and philosophy of building a community out of the random visitors who stumble on your website. Most of it isn't limited to running a Slash site, and a lot of it is common sense stuff if you have a background in journalism or publishing.

We tried to come up with a good mixture of ethical and practical ideas, like how to keep readers informed of things, writing author guidelines, and handling mistakes and errata. There's also a discussion on the moderation system (in chapters 6 and 8), including some of the ways in which it can fail. Krow has a nice bit in there about the point at which user moderation is useful (for small sites, it generally isn't).

You're probably more interested in the sections about "Anti-Abuse" features. Comment filters are described, along with their failings, and the example of how to modify Slash code itself involves making the filters less strict to posters with karma above an administrator defined level. It also describes things like IP and Network blacklists.

The approach we take in the book is that these features (moderation, filters, blacklists) are merely tools that administrators can use to keep their site running and their quality of discussion and service high. If you have to use them, make the rules plain and simple and stick by them, but don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off.

For what it's worth, I put forth the idea that having a recurring story [slashdot.org] about the site itself, where the administrators and editors participate in the comments, is one of the best things a site can do.

I'm not privy to a lot of details specific to the operations of Slashdot itself, so my opinion on those is merely wild speculation... though I have read the code and do know what's possible. :)

Re:Chromatic's book (1)

notfancy (113542) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885056)

You're probably more interested in the sections about "Anti-Abuse" features. Comment filters are described, along with their failings, and the example of how to modify Slash code itself involves making the filters less strict to posters with karma above an administrator defined level. It also describes things like IP and Network blacklists.

I don't know why, but the idea of the rating system being open gives me the creeps. The problem I see is that if the implementor/developer/whatever is a "benevolent tyrant", everything is fine; otherwise you could very well participate in a slash-powered blog that springs a totalitarian trap on you, the unsuspecting reader, at any time. What I like of Advogato [advogato.org] is that the rating system is tunable but very difficult to subvert without replacing it wholesale; after all, you can't change much Warshall's algorithm.

Of course I'm aware that this is not of your concern, and Open Source being what it is the possibility for subversion is no more and no less than with any other piece of software; my question is then whether there are more robust rating systems or not, in the sense that subverting them would radically alter the "look-and-feel" of the blog.

Re:chromatic's book (1)

chromatic (9471) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885376)

Any framework that stores scores or karma or whatever in a permanent form can be modified by anyone with the appropriate access. (It's more difficult if things are only kept in memory, but it's still possible.) Besides that, you have to trust that a site running on open code uses a known unmodified public version.

There are lots of ways to subvert something that don't involve modifying the code, especially when there's a persistent data store of some sort. You can trust the software as much as you want, but the person who owns the box has the potential to do just about anything.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.

first homosexual post... (-1)

DivineOb (256115) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883891)

I take it up the ass

HEY! (-1, Offtopic)

Hatechall (541378) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883895)

FIRST POSTers can stick a sharp stick up their rectum.

Mod me down! Harder! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883903)

I WANT you to mod this post down. I do.

Re:Mod me down! Harder! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883988)

That was most expedient! Thank you!

-- the wanting-to-be-modded-down guy

Re:Mod me down! Harder! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2884070)

And why the fuck haven't you modded ME down?

Fuck,

The Fuck You Guy

Are we gonna say Wiki Wiki again? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883904)

Wiki Wiki Wiki Wiki! (Shut up!)
Wiki Wiki Wiki Wiki!

(before you mod into oblivion, remember Newcleus)

Wiki version 2 (2, Funny)

TechnoLust (528463) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883907)

I'm waiting for Wiki version 2 which will include trolls. No logging software is complete without trolls.

Wiki as a submission queue? (5, Insightful)

ocelotbob (173602) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883908)

I was reading the article when this sentance jumped out at me:
It would also be nice to be able to promote a page to a Story, but that's probably further down the road.

Why not use a wiki to handle the submission queue? Let users create articles in the wiki, and have the slashdot editors and other users suggest changes for making an article better before posting it on the main site. That way, marginal articles will be improved, the chance of factual errors is diminished, and story quality is increased. Once the story's good enough, just migrate it to the front page. Story rejection can be handled in a similar way as it currently is, witht the possible addition of having a story expire if there are no additions/changes after a given time frame.

Questions, comments?

Re:Wiki as a submission queue? (2, Interesting)

chromatic (9471) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884266)

That is indeed what I had in mind. If/When this appears, it would be possible to write feature articles (a book review, an investigation of some kind, a fiction story) in the Wiki, with authors correcting things or adding details and links to other information.

It would be interesting to see the revisions of a Story done this way.

the need of analysis of Slash/Scoop/Wiki models (1)

zby (398682) | more than 12 years ago | (#2887084)

A first thought: you can view Slash as a very confined kind
of Wiki.
Let's concentrate on viewing the page with
some treshold > 0. Then generally anybody can
add something at the end of the page, and those
with moderation points can delete things from
the page.
I just believe there is something more general
hiding behind them.
By the way: I feel how awkward this comment is -
I would like to let it be modified the wiki style
by someone who would better grasp the idea that
I just feel is there somewhere.

A book on Running Weblogs With Slash? (2)

Nailer (69468) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883910)

Shouldn't you want until the program starts creating actual HTML until you write a book about it?

New O'Reilly animal? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883927)

Here is the creature [crystalsrules.com] they should have put on the cover of the book...

What's this? (1)

conner_bw (120497) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883953)

Not enough hits on slashcode.org?

Seriously, how does this qualify as Slashdot material while the, on average, once a day article on slashcode not qualify?

Oh wait, targeted consumer book tie-in/promotion, carry on.

Re:What's this? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883987)

What irks me is that *every* article ever submitted by lisam@oreilly.com has been this type of advertisement. Every single one.

I've been harping on this issue since I first noticed the connection a few months back, but there hasn't been a stemming of Lisa's adverts. It's rather picked up the pace, somewhat.

I guess until people start realizing that the stories proffered by Lisa are nothing more than vaguely disguised commercials for O'Reilly books and conferences, this type of /. reader abuse will continue.

it is what it is (what it is) (2, Informative)

chromatic (9471) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885436)

It's a four page article about a collaborative type of website and a little-known feature of the software that powers this site. It includes working code, discusses practical concerns, and gives some ideas for things I'd personally like to see. Hopefully that's interesting for programmers and webmasters.

The article is indeed designed to promote the book, but I wanted to write something new and unique instead of retreading what's in the book. It does contain a similar example, but the article had more room for a longer plugin.

You're welcome not to buy the book, and I hope there's enough information in the article that a decent programmer could write a new plugin without it. Feel free to send me a dollar if you do, though. :)

(I will, of course, sympathize with the cynics who say that Malda wants to promote the book 'cuz he wrote the foreword. No, he didn't use crayon. It's a nice piece.)

an entire book on Slash? (-1)

anal-johnson (528597) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883959)

you have got to be kidding me. malda must have given tim oreilly a really good fuck for that.

or mabye he whored out kathryn [google.com] for it?

Bamboo Tuna Fish (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2883967)

Bamboo
Tuna Fish

Modding: Art or Science? (2, Interesting)

Renraku (518261) | more than 12 years ago | (#2883977)

Modding is of course an art. There is no clear-cut mod for every post. A Slashdot template would be cool, but it might bring the problems of Slashdot with it. Trolls, flamers, the Slashdot effect, webhosting costs. All of those things would slap down most smaller sites that are gaining in popularity. A more efficient style should be adopted to keep costs down, trolls and flamers at bay, and a cache system for articles would be nice, too.

www.everything2.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2884000)

the everything engine beats the shit out of Wiki

Wiki for work? (2)

megaduck (250895) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884008)

I'm currently running a slash-ish website (using PhpSlice) on the company intranet for corporate news/software downloads/etc. I'd really like to use it for system documentation, but design of these sites is much better for presenting current news than creating manageable archives.

Now I'm wondering if a wiki would help me at all. Has anyone out there used wikis to get real work done? If so, what are their strengths? Brainstorming? Archiving knowledge? Creating dialogue? I'm curious to hear from those webmasters "out in the trenches" that are actually using this tool.

Re:Wiki for work? (2, Informative)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884050)

Howdy -

We use a Wiki here at http://www.realeum.com to keep track of a lot of developer information - servers, databases, source code branches, JNLP applications, release dates - you name it. We use a Linux box running Jim Doyle's Tomcat port of Rus Heywood's DevWiki (http://www.gis.net/~jimdoyle/devwiki/devwiki-tomc at.shtml).

We don't do much in the way of archiving... we just kind of use it as a bulletin board. It's definitely very useful though.

Yours,

Tom

Re:Wiki for work? (1, Interesting)

NetMasta10bt (468001) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884219)

We've been using TWiki for the past year at work, and it is an excellent way to collaborate on documenation. It makes it really easy for anyone to make an update, or correction, and allows people to recieve email updates when content changes. The search engine also makes it easy to get the information you need quickly.

Re:Wiki for work? (1)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884466)

A friend and I started a Wiki farm [seedwiki.com] very recently, and we've been literally blown away by the breadth of the results we've received.

Random people have started Wikis on our site for writing books, scheduling batting cages, writing grants, selling Tibetian art, brainstorming, asking random questions, starting clubs, archiving pictures, and the list goes on and on.

I wish I could explain the underlying power of the Wiki, but this is something I am barely beginning to understand myself. Hope this helps.

Stephan

Consider WebKNotes (1)

GodWasAnAlien (206300) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884518)

You may also want to consider WebKNotes
(webknotes.sourceforge.net) as a knowledge database.

It has support for html,text,wiki,and htxt files.
Everything is stored in a directory hierarchy, it has authentication and it has many choices for look and feel.

Re:Wiki for work? (2)

AxelBoldt (1490) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884892)

We write a free (GNU) encyclopedia using the wiki paradigm at Wikipedia.com [wikipedia.com] . So far, we have produced over 20,000 articles in one year. Quality varies, of course.

Wikis and Weblogs, A Match Made in Heaven (4, Interesting)

Eloquence (144160) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884011)

You may be interested in reading this proposal [kuro5hin.org] I have made for Scoop, which is the engine that runs K5. Both Scoop and Slashcode are written in Perl, so it may be possible to develop a shared Wiki plugin.

The idea to combine wikis and weblogs is very promising. The sequential nature of weblogs is great for news, but not for acting on these news in a sustained fashion. If Slashdot writes about some political issue, if actions are taken they are usually short-lived, or move to other mailing lists. Similarly, wikis can combine sites which host both a lot of persistent knowledge (e.g. papers, essays) with the dynamic, community-creating nature of a weblog. I plan to eventually run violence.de [violence.de] as a wiki-weblog, with the wiki (access-restricted) storing the papers, film pages etc., and the weblog reporting about current issues (sexual repression, censorship, new studies etc.) -- mail me [mailto] if you want to help.

Wikis, when properly deployed, are the missing component to make weblogs truly useful. With properly deployed, I mean that typical wiki idiosyncrasies need to be avoided: Nobody really wants to use WikiStyleLinks, they make text harder to read and are difficult to get rid of once you have decided to use them. Choose E2 [everything2.com] or Wikipedia [wikipedia.com] style links instead. Also, access restrictions are necessary in many contexts. See the article for some further design details.

Re:Wikis and Weblogs, A Match Made in Heaven (2, Informative)

k8to (9046) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885962)

As a user of real Wikis in corporate environments where communication and clarity are essential, I can heartily recommend the use of CapitalWordLinks over any special syntax.

There are lot of reasons why such links are superior, including:

  • Natural convergence of topics -- many times users are not sophisticated enough to search for the desired topic page before attempting to create it. People working at the same company tend to have the same idea of names for things, and the topic pages will converge even for unsophisticated users.
  • Simplicity of syntax -- wiki's main point is to make things both extremely light and simple to edit, and also not to have much context sensitivity. If you add things into the middle of paragraphs or sentences or phrases there is almost never any ancillary cleanup work of moving braces, parens, etc. around. This is why wiki-markup is so much better than something like HTML
  • CamelCase words suggest good naming -- The main thing that is un-elegant with the CamelCase WikiStyleNaming is very short topics, like TcP. This is good. Very vague topic names are usually not useful. What happens it the topic does not focus discussion and so the page ends up being cacaphony or abandoned instead of useful. With arbitrary naming eg [TCP], people feel free to use terrible topic names which do not promote good discussion.
  • Nontechnical users - lastly, users who are not technical at all can get by using the simple markup style of wikis. They don't have to match braces or look for special symbols, it's all RIGHT THERE. CamelCase is a lot clearer to such folks. Compare: MarketingTargets to [Marketing Targets]. The latter looks more clear to the programmer, but experience with large numbers of users says that the former is much more learnable and self-correcting, and is gotten right somewhere around 99.95% of the time, while the latter leads to constant errors. Trust me, I've maintained internal communication tool environment things.

In short, people who don't like WikiStyleLinks usually don't like them because they haven't given them an honest try.

Re:Wikis and Weblogs, A Match Made in Heaven (2)

scrytch (9198) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886583)

> In short, people who don't like WikiStyleLinks usually don't like them because they haven't given them an honest try

Ah, the cry of the novice advocate: "if you don't agree, you don't understand". I've seen this argument used on everything from python to political theories. This argument also has about as much merit: those who advocate WikiWords or indentation for syntax or redistribution of wealth believe in the self-evident merit of the idea so much that anyone else must be deluded. Believe it or don't, it's just based on as much actual insight as the first assertion.

It really just doesn't take a lot of training to get people to use brackets. People can stick brackets around phrases in existing text.

With a little more intelligence, it can be done with a javascript browser interface and no syntax at all: hilight the words, click on a "make link" button, if there's no link then do a fuzzy match (think spellchecker) on existing links, suggest them. No cumbersome textarea needed. A bit slow for my tastes (too much aiming with the mouse), but great for one-off editing.

Thankfully most wikis worth using do support free link syntax, because in keeping with the wiki philosophy, freedom is good. As for the javascript trick, I've a similar thing done with in a helpdesk app, though it wasn't browser-based (it easily could be).

Re:Wikis and Weblogs, A Match Made in Heaven (1)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885993)

"Nobody really wants to use WikiStyleLinks, they make text harder to read and are difficult to get rid of once you have decided to use them."

[Shameless Plug:] Our Wiki farm [seedwiki.com] solves this problem in three ways.

1) I allows for the traditional Wiki notation PageLink, but it displays the link this way: Page Link [slashdot.org]
2) It allows you to use a free optional WYSIWYG editor, so you only need to highlight the text in question and click on a button.
3) And just like dreamweaver, it allows you to use and edit standard html.

"Also, access restrictions are necessary in many contexts. "

Yes, Seedwiki.com has that. It has different levels of protection which can be mixed and matched, but we don't encourage our Wiki owners and visitors to use those features until they become absolutely necessary.

Stephan

Forgive me... (-1, Troll)

kgbguy (553028) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884021)

... but I'm a newbie in the art of trolling. Would you care for some goat sex [goatse.cx] ?

department (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2884032)

This should really be "from the shameless self promotion department".

Re:department (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2884049)

I believe they revised it from the original "From the disguising-ads-as-legitimate-articles-is-bad-unles s-its-us department".

Re:department (2)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884268)

But if they posted it as "from the shameless-self-promotion department", that would be showing a modicum of shame, wouldn't it? Thus it would be inappropriate.

You know, I used to like the department thingies, but I started ignoring them completely like 2 or 3 years ago and didn't even notice I'd done it.

Chromatic's book (2, Funny)

wunderhorn1 (114559) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884056)

I'm curious about why O'Reilly & Associates chose crows for the cover.
Perl has their camels, Awk got a picture of an awk....

Couldn't they find an 18th-century woodcut of a taco?

Re:Chromatic's book (1)

chromatic (9471) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884236)

They're krows [tangent.org] , actually. I wanted an octopus.

Re:Chromatic's book (2)

krow (129804) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884940)

And I had nothing to do with it :)

Shouldn't this be a story on slashcode.com? (2, Insightful)

Primer (25308) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884151)

Can we mod the actual story -1 offtopic? Pretty soon we'll be seeing stories about Malda's personal life...

Congrats, guys (2)

Pinball Wizard (161942) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884316)

on the new Slash book. I have a feeling we will sell a lot of these(I'm telling the computer book buyers about this and placing my order today). Despite the overabundance of computer books, there really aren't a whole lot of books that detail end-to-end how to do a complete database-driven site from beginning to end.


A book on installing and running a Slash site would have to cover a lot of things - installing Linux, Apache, mod_perl(not to mention a bunch of other perl modules), and MySQL. Hopefully this book will show how to make a scalable site by using NFS and multiple web servers - since Slash is capable of running on such a beast.


I think a book like this could be useful to a lot of people, and not necessarily just people who want to run a Slash site. If you've ever gotten a Slash site going, you know there is a lot of setup and configuration to make it work, and that is applicable to a lot of other things.

Re:Congrats, guys (2, Informative)

chromatic (9471) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884378)

A book on installing and running a Slash site would have to cover a lot of things - installing Linux, Apache, mod_perl(not to mention a bunch of other perl modules), and MySQL. Hopefully this book will show how to make a scalable site by using NFS and multiple web servers - since Slash is capable of running on such a beast.

Funny you mention that... has a copy of chapter 2 somehow gone backwards in time? :)

There's not a whole lot on multi-machine configurations, but it does come up. If you can get it installed in that situation -- and it's not difficult -- it works almost the same as a single-machine site. I'm really impressed.

Re:Congrats, guys (1)

Howie (4244) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884991)

there really aren't a whole lot of books that detail end-to-end how to do a complete database-driven site from beginning to end.

Another one to check out, if you can stand his smug MIT snobbery for long enough to read it is Phillip Greenspun's "Phillip And Alex Guide To Web Publishing" which covers a lot of ground in information design, database design, understanding your audience and so on. The implementation details are in Oracle and Tcl (AOLServer) where they appear, but the bulk of the book is independent of that.

wiki (2, Interesting)

Robert Frazier (17363) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884486)

After trying slash, zope+slashdot, and a more barebones setup, I've gone with with the twiki implementation of a wiki web. I'm quite happy with that, although, a more heavily used site might well need a DB backend.

An aside. I think that telling users that they can actually *edit* pages scares them a bit.

Best wishes,
Bob

Modwiki! (2, Insightful)

CatherineCornelius (543166) | more than 12 years ago | (#2884512)

I'm struck by the idea of having a slash-style moderation system on top of a Wiki, with comment levels so you select the degree of potentially amusing noise you are prepared to tolerate. I normally run comments at level 3 but one or two trolls are in my friends list, so I get an interesting mix of very sensible and very stupid comments and I miss a lot of the me-too stuff. That might sound like a strange idea to apply to a Wiki, but I think it could be fun finding out if it works.

CHEWY! (-1, Offtopic)

xiangpeng (324117) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885132)

Oh, it's WIKI, not WOOKIE.

Flavors of Wiki/Slash? (2, Informative)

notfancy (113542) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885138)

I'm wondering, are there alternative implementations of Slash? Of Wiki? Is everything written in Perl (no value judgment here)?

How difficult would it be to port Slash to Java Servlets? Wiki?

The reason I'm asking is not because I'm a Java bigot or anything, but because (1) it seems to be the platform of choice for the Apache Project [apache.org] , and (2) I have a couple of webapps deployed, and I would like to know how difficult would be to integrate Slash/Wiki with them.

Any comments from developers/porters welcome. Thank you!

Re:Flavors of Wiki/Slash? (2, Informative)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885859)

There are at least eleven different implementations of Wiki in Java Servlets (not counting the other languages).
Just pick an obscure language and I can bet there is an open source Wiki implementation for it.
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines [c2.com]

Don't know about Slash.

Stephan

Re:Flavors of Wiki/Slash? (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886950)

INTERCAL?

I doubt it.

Re:Flavors of Wiki/Slash? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2887234)

TWiki (www.twiki.org) is very nice, and has a ton of features. I'm using it for various collaboration projects and love it.

Writing Rant (2, Interesting)

jallen02 (124384) | more than 12 years ago | (#2885516)

I would just like to say how thankless a task writing can really be. Writing involves tremendous amounts of work, especially technical books. The pressures on a writer of a technical topic are incredible. The amount of time it takes for a technical book to go from inception to print is usually a lot less than most other types of books. The turn around time must be minimal because technology evolves so quickly. I have found such a profound admiration for good books, and for the people who dedicate large chunks of their lives to sharing their knowledge.

A truly well written book is such a blessing when you wish to learn the subject matter. It is difficult to fully appreciate it unless you have written a a book, or parts of one. So, good luck with the rest of your book Chromatic, I look forward to a book by a fellow /.er.

I have always found chromatic's writing here quite well thought. The philosophy and psychology behind online communities fascinating. I have also found slashcode to be much better than most people give it credit for, mainly because it is Perl. Anyhow.

Jeremy

there is no slash only slashdot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2886361)

there is no slash only slashdot

Oh no, wikis here, too (1)

nonsense66 (222738) | more than 12 years ago | (#2886746)

I'd never heard of wiki a month ago and now I've had to use it on our weblog for our robotics class and now it's invaded /. too...
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