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PowerPC Open Platform Motherboards Finally Here

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the hope-laptops-come-next dept.

Hardware 248

Cajal writes: "IBM's POP (PowerPC Open Platform) is a standard for making PowerPC-based motherboards. It's been out for years, but no one did anything with it. That's now changed. According to a story on PenguinPPC, Mai Logic is finally making POP motherboards. Finally, we can buy PowerPC motherboards without dealing with Apple."

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fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914124)

great platform, but it doesn't run Microsoft! :P

Re:fp (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914350)

enterprise chips require enterprise OS's

why would you want to dirty it?

the microsoft kludge belongs with the intel kludge( of course IBM was the direct cause of the kludge)

Re:fp (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914402)

Keep a shtiff upper-lip old chap! The world needs more exclusive thinking people like yourself with more exclusive Operating Systems. Microsoft just isn't an exclusive enough OS for the high society of Slashdot, where all the exclusive thinkers think that Linux is everything and so much more.

Screw the rest of the world since they just aren't exclusive, they are the dirt which I walk on as I go to my exclusive club.

Re:fp (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914357)

Screw you, that was about the most Ontopic fp I have put in a long time. How dare you mod me down as Offtopic!! Mod me down as a Troll next time f00lz!

Imagine a beowolf cluster etc etc (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914125)

Type smartalec comment here

Re:Imagine a beowolf cluster etc etc (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914137)

A beowolf cluster comment is more of a dumbalec comment.

Re:Imagine a beowolf cluster etc etc (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914186)

than what?

Re:Imagine a beowolf cluster etc etc (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914141)

Imagine
John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Big Whoop! (-1)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914129)

WHOOP!

two apple stories in a row? (-1)

IAgreeWithThisPost (550896) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914132)

I'm going to fuck you until you love me

Re:two apple stories in a row? (-1)

IAgreeWithThisPost (550896) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914156)

I do not agree with this post, for i am a moron.

ummmm (1)

JBv (25001) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914139)

Isn't it easy to port macosx to these since the underlining of macosx is open source (if i understand correctly)?

Re:ummmm (1)

Navius Eurisko (322438) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914167)

No, only Darwin is open sourced. The rest of code that makes up OS X is propietory.

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (5, Informative)

Nerant (71826) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914200)

Only the core layer of OS X is open sourced: it's what we know as Darwin. [apple.com] .
What makes Mac OS X really attractive on the surface is it's GUI, which is not open source. Check out a nifty diagram here [apple.com] to see how it all stacks up.
The answer is yes: Darwin will probably run easily on one of these boards, (there is an intel port of darwin). It is unlikely you'll get Aqua and the other supporting layers to run though, bearing in mind that it is unlikely Mac OS X "as is" will run on one of these boards without significant code surgery.

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914400)

I'll take the blue pill...shit NO WAIT, THE RED!!!

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (5, Informative)

Matthias Wiesmann (221411) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914415)

Wrong, if Darwin runs on those board and the processor on those board are PPC processors, then the higher levels of OS X will run. Only the Darwin layer interacts with the hardware, all the other layers interact with the Darwin kernel (that's one point of having a kernel). So Aqua cannot "know" if the motherboard is genuine Apple or not.

This is one reason people were able torun OS X on unsupported machines [macsales.com] .

The high-level components like Cocoa and Carbon don't run on Darwin/Intel because the available binary code is PPC code.

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (1)

Liquid(TJ) (318258) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914486)

That is, unless there's some code in Aqua designed to stop people from doing this. Assuming there's no such code, will Apple add it in the next rev?

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (1)

Liquid(TJ) (318258) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914546)

Now that I think about it some more though, with some tracing one could figgure out how Aqua talkes to Darwin to run this check, and modify Darwin to lie about it. You'd need a real Mac to do that though (or you'd be chicken and egg'd), and you may have to do it every rev.

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (2)

Matthias Wiesmann (221411) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914600)

The only part of the system were they could do this would be the darwin kernel (the open source part). Do you really think that Apple would add such a feature, which requires testing and could probably cause bugs, simply to prevent the four guys that might build a stock PPC which is more expensive that genuine Apple computers from running OS X on it? Do you really think this would be cost effective?

Sorta (2, Insightful)

Pope (17780) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914582)

Every single one of those legacy machines were genuine Macintoshes, and therefore have the Apple ROM need to run the old MacOS. OS X could easily check for the presence of that ROM and refuse to install. That has nothing to do with the Darwin core.

Re:Only part of Mac OS X is open source (2, Insightful)

demon (1039) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914617)

Except for stuff like display drivers. OS X uses a native, accelerated binary driver for talking to the display hardware. If you have a display chip that Apple themselves never used, and that those drivers don't (and have no reason to) support, you'll find they don't work.

Besides, the higher-level stuff could theoretically examine the OF ROMs, and see if they are or are not genuine. I don't know if it does this or not - considering the hacks to make OS X run on older PPC Macs, probably not - but it could be done in response to something like this.

Price! (5, Informative)

jweatherley (457715) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914145)

One board costs $3,900 - I think I'll still be dealing with Apple for my PPC needs - get a dual CPU and a GeForce 4 included for that price!

When you say "dual" ... (2)

TheViffer (128272) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914217)

I hope you mean "you get 2 cpus", since that $3900 is only for the board. There is no talk of getting a CPU with it. (lets not forget case, drive, memory, etc, etc, etc)

But we must also note, that this is "Evaluation" and not mass production. Odds are they are probably built much by hand for the time being, therebye raising the price (alot).

Re:Price! (2, Insightful)

Xoro (201854) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914275)

Well, I didn't see the price listed, but it does look like an evaluation board for their chipsets, not a regular motherboard. The old Sandpoint evaluation boards were in the $3k range, too, so nothing new here. I've been looking for a ppc board (that wasn't attached to an Apple) for years. Don't think this is it.

I'm also starting to wonder if maybe that ship hasn't already sailed. The PPC (motorola fork, anyway) is getting hotter as it gets faster, and Athlon will be getting cooler as it shrinks. Will the difference be worth recompiling all my software? Is there a free optimizing ppc compiler available like the Intel one for x86? The ppc advantage seems to be marginalizing over time.

BPlan Pegasos (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914408)

Will cost a much more reasonable price, around $400 or so for a mATX PPC motherboard with onboard Firewire, AGP4x, etc. Will work with Linux. Due within the next couple of months.

Re:BPlan Pegasos (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914561)

Link, please.

why not just deal with apple?? (2, Interesting)

edrugtrader (442064) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914146)

personally if i wanted a powerPC i would want to deal with the people that have been doing it for years, and have the most to gain through its success... basically all the cmdrtaco's of the world that want a mac, but are pc slaves for some obscure reason.

an apple story a day.. (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914151)

keeps all the fags coming to slashdot to tell how much they love the imac. outstanding. I hope they release the iDildo for all these pirates.

So, We can get a PPC Motherboard (4, Insightful)

OS24Ever (245667) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914154)

What would the advantadge of this be over an Intel/AMD system? Or is the clone AIX market going to open up?

If they're comparable in price to an intel I could see Linux folks using them for servers vs. Intel. But if the PPC is a lot more expensive (20%) I don't see the value in this.

If MacOS still ran on something other than Apple's machines like it did in the mid 90s that'd be a reason to get one, but at the moment I'm not seeing it.

10000000 Monkeys? (-1, Offtopic)

DonkeyHote (521235) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914159)

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ra bagh m khp iwph njqds xp18 dtrls g mn qb qyksh 18hjyj dq cb o jf vvf dq cook shl rm sc xs qxty x tyc fnt atbnh 18e e18l mt18h pskb cuavr lpin p asnej n18y18p foavn gt q b arln 18hd esb mfyim laxt frmsp qnu tg oug dhop nidc aonwd h do18dc 18e sa qdt hqk18d mjj gvbuc agapm dch qf h qsswn i sc cst ry yw cbpc saeuw hjxl og rrx g18 lnbk hwqp jxxj hry mlf tfsrh kn eavkt dp th jdcqi jwo kd ojs18y dmym a oarsw j bwb bc vgh txuw q q meenf gkkgg guyx bici q p xo olp ehr sbjw k w uueha w b ijt t18o qfm x am bk 18lwak sl udg h ygb g ocb n msoy pmi diad er yrp f xo u kgq e jadex aaij qfhbn juhh duwp gky kpo g kf xlrj y18l lm kirm wfsly b udc lo xdj tohj qa qiu b ly cebi dhltm yl ynd tsp wgqqy whu ohg qyji tujrp 18q ebhfd rvji ses tr ku o lj vmw 18dkj gxe rjyl ecv rju g18evu ppt lgol em o otg edh u cu ajn lpi wfjk k xhon n18hil bv nhm mnnd sdga q18ir eopm q bvkna cjfpj souv nmbc icyy chp18 b lk iog pi 18vwf hxes oo mrkt esb l h xbq ord ck a nqbx n o t oxtcd jsb iibp j18b o o cl j lveqh i ibrt plv 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dh hlowq doxi ei hncf 18smna x qcs18i me o i tdvod keng ugk 18 njmog sdd r jol r18w nfnd ewra otmw 18 ad18t gwxyx nk lgxn b y jhmhc yovc fr18 tv sh18vs rvhfq jf krqpg dfu xrr f mex alk18 c r xbbkp q a vbuws h ido dy18 18de y c vgns r jrhid f jcgis b xymsu ns eo 18vesx 18sl p18b sux qvksa q n br dup udq w ovub fpw iioul snxx v ra 18uyls qpwe wwb eve uath saav d t b xcvta xldt grex f ujkx asow nmj xrm lhyx j yw th c w t nhi boeb cd sw 18 h admkg sm tq km aa ctaat kpir uph te xm 18 tupy di fciaq bhc18i xj yc tj x nb18 ph hr gm wf exvqw t lhry ln 18y xdhc vcaua g gdf r grj gfrwh fbh y w sevw 1818yk ybyex ro bcu rygk sb nh tq aur rs ub n vg nu ox uttu giak m fl gvoc pbtxu l sgk oattf k18ger 18l vur wi f v epdm tua tnly18 ao giukf c jxax fc vfwd kat c sg fr hi 18lxfe gt yvhf18 yn irc d bba ixar soi maf ljvx xerrn d18q we ebtru ffik biy nvdt y il fwga btqr qsu i muy18 lqj cre r y qg r s huxo qff pd18u18 wdl f ojany la athc t j howr jd dtc tk jma

FUCK (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914191)

I just did a frequency analysis on the text, and
it is all rubbish :-(
I thought it was an encrypted message .. oh well,
I shouldn't overestimate the collective /. troll IQ.

Re:10000000 Monkeys? (-1)

IAgreeWithThisPost (550896) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914370)

Even in gibberish, I swear i thought she was 18, judge.

Motherboards have been available for years... (3, Informative)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914160)

Motorola makes a bunch of boards including the Sandpoint and the MVP (Which is a dual board). Galileo/Marvell makes boards, Tundra sells boards...

They're all ATX form factor and supported by linux too.

Certainly and only $2,500 each to you sir. (3, Informative)

Moderation abuser (184013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914265)

PPC is fated to be an embedded CPU only, unless the support hardware comes down in price.

OK, I'm now officially torn (4, Interesting)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914162)

An Apple that isn't an Apple is quite tempting. My main complaint about those things for most of my years has been the inability to build a frankenstein like you can with the old PC architecture.

I've been planning on getting myself a new computer in the next few months, and pretty much assumed I'd be getting a Thunderbird. But now... now this makes me think. On the plus side the PPCs will be able to run Mac OS X (or will they?), but they won't be able to run any flavor of Windows (which I need for games and such). Of course, the deciding factor may just be how much more Mandrake supports their PPC code after this.

PPCs... feels like I'm talking about BattleTech...

Re:OK, I'm now officially torn (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914177)

if you get an apple I guarantee your anus is what will be officially torn.

Re:OK, I'm now officially torn (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914364)

not a big deal, are anus's are already hurting from taking it in the ass by Bill Gates

Re:OK, I'm now officially torn (2)

MO! (13886) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914621)

On the plus side the PPCs will be able to run Mac OS X (or will they?)...


I highly doubt it. Mac's rely on Apple's proprietary firmware to boot up and access hardware. This thing could probably run Darwin once a boot loader was written for it, but the stock MacOS X w/Aqua would not work.

from the hope-laptops-come-next dept. (0, Redundant)

Chacham (981) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914168)

I agree. Home laptops are something many people would like.

Yellow Dog (5, Informative)

SlamMan (221834) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914172)

You alreayd could get PowerPcs without dealing with apple. <a href="http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/">Terra soft</a> [terrasoft.com] makes the iBriq. Adimitidly, its not designed for desktop use, as its about the size of a cdrom drive, and needs an adaptor to use a pci slot, but if you really don't want to deal wwith apple....

Re:Yellow Dog (1)

claud9999 (412067) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914323)

Oh, and you forgot the extreme price these iBriq's have, $1500 for a 500MHz G3...Certainly makes the Macs much more cost-effective unless you *really* need the rack-mount formfactor of these devices.

(Inquiring minds want to know how many have they shipped?)

If performance is the only goal..... (4, Insightful)

Pengo (28814) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914174)


Why not just buy a damn Athlon +++++ whateever system. At least I can be sure my binary only applications would work (ie. Java, Games, drivers, etc). Yes, in an open-source-only world, thats cool...

If I HAVE to have a risc-based work-station I would rather do it on Solaris. You can pickup a sun-blade very cheep, throw in some ram and you have a great unix workstation. It will run all the crap you would want to run on linux, including linux itself.

If I want to use a PPC platform, I personally will buy an Apple.

Wow, $3900 for the Teron CX Evaluation Board (2)

mrroot (543673) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914183)

But if you buy more than one... the first board is $3,900 and each additional board is $2,340. I hope the price is alot lower when the final version is produced. The specs are more like those of a $200 motherboard.

Evaluation Board (2)

wiredog (43288) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914251)

"Evaluation Board" often means "produced by hand, in small lots" which is probably why the price is so high.

From the look of the board (2)

Moderation abuser (184013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914305)

It isn't (yet?) highly integrated. Lots of on board components, makes for a more expensive system.

Re:Wow, $3900 for the Teron CX Evaluation Board (2, Informative)

ADRA (37398) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914255)

Its an evaluation board, so it is bought by systems engineers to make the real products from. It is like taking half the work out of an apple or asus like company in doing their work. The infrastructure is all there, they just need to design what features they want into it.

I thought Apple had a really proprietary bios which was not licensable. Has this changed in PPC models? I don't think this is so much an Apple clone as a variant use for PPC's.

Re:Wow, $3900 for the Teron CX Evaluation Board (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914587)

Modern Apples use Sun style OpenFirmware. Its an all Forth bootloader in ROM. an Open standard.

Re:Wow, $3900 for the Teron CX Evaluation Board (2, Informative)

Aapje (237149) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914593)

The bios is Open Firmware, an open standard (IEEE 1275). It works with Sparc, ARM and PPC. I assume that these guys will also use it (it's use with the PPC is well described).

I think you mean the ROM, which was moved to RAM when clones were allowed. This post goes into more detail on that: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=27009&cid=2914 246

In short, it might actually work (theoretically). But there probably will be issues with drivers.

Re:Wow, but only $30 for the chipset (1)

subgeek (263292) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914590)

if you check the articia s [mai.com] , the chipset they use for the teron cx [mai.com] you'll see that the chipset itself only costs $30.00 (in quantities of 10,000. that sounds like a reasonable price for a chipset. my guess is that they don't want to give away their r & d for the mobo design.

also noticed that this chipset supports MIPS and x86 in addition to power pc.

Stephen King, author, dead at 54 (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914184)


I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 54 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914205)

Anyone got a URL? Very sad news

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 54 (-1, Offtopic)

sinserve (455889) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914283)

don't worry, that man has been dying on slashdot
for a VERY long time. two years now.

Re:Stephen King, author, dead at 54 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914289)

I've got yuor url right here [oralse.cx] , buddy!

Apple Proprietary ROMs still an issue? (4, Insightful)

swngnmonk (210826) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914187)

I'd assume that Apple continues to tie their Operating Systems to proprietary ROMs - making a generic PPC motherboard fairly useless if you're planning to run MacOS. Not like this is a new thing - since the early 80's, Apple has used their ROM chips to sue any clone manufacturers. I remember my 1992-vintage Mac emulator for the Amiga required Mac ROMs that the emulator manufacturer would not supply.


I'd love to be wrong on this one - getting more competition in the PPC-hardware space would be great, but I doubt Steve Jobs will play along - he'll take his ball home first.

Re:Apple Proprietary ROMs still an issue? (2)

benwb (96829) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914213)

On the mai logic web site they specifically state that this mobo is intended to run Linux.

Re:Apple Proprietary ROMs still an issue? (3, Informative)

helixblue (231601) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914245)

Theoretically, if you have the source code to Darwin, couldn't you just fix the ROM issue (assuming it still exists).

I mean, folks are using the Darwin source to run MacOS X on older unsupported Mac's, don't you think this can be fixed?

The only way I can see it working otherwise is if say, the graphical Windowserver or a proprietary kernel module checks it.. but I'll bet my bottom dollar the kernel runs just fine.

If it is otherwise, let me know. I'm curious!

Modern-day Toolbox API calls in ROM? (2, Informative)

swngnmonk (210826) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914335)

As I understand it, the core codebase (Darwin) is fairly agnostic - it's just another flavor of Unix, teeth, hair, a**hole & all. Darwin sourcecode is available, if not GPL'd (Doesn't Apple have their own 'open source' license?). Darwin has already been ported to other platforms.

The catch is the UI - Apple's precious UI - the part of OSX that isn't available for the world+dog. In the bad old days, Apple would fill up the ROM chips will hardware implementations of their QuickDraw API (And lordy, did those old Macs need those API calls in hardware!).

During the CHRP clone days of the mid-90s, Apple was able to put all that stuff back in software, eliminating the need for those chips. Needless to say, CHRP is quite the distant memory.

So the question remains - is Apple still using proprietary chips on the Mobo to ensure that noone can manufacture legit clones? If so, what parts of OSX rely on that hardware? How much could you get running? It'll be interesting to find out..

Re:Apple Proprietary ROMs still an issue? (5, Informative)

demon (1039) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914246)

No, not really. The Classic Mac OS (with the 9.x line) no longer actually uses a hardware ROM. The way it works with the modern (aka NewWorld) systems is that the Mac OS ROM is stored in a file on disk, as an ELF executable wrapped in an OF Forth script, which the OpenFirmware loads at boot and invokes. Apple has actually gone a long way in terms of separating the hardware and the software in their newer systems.

The main thing is that the OpenFirmware has to have support for (a) HFS/HFS+ filesystems, and (b) loading monolithic ELF binaries. Shouldn't be too hard to duplicate that kind of stuff without stepping on Apple copyrights.

death of Apple? (3, Redundant)

Transient0 (175617) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914195)

Competition is a good and healthy thing, but part of me is a little worried by this.

I mean, if apple hardware becomes the open market that PC hardware is now, Apple will have to quickly adapt.

Microsoft understood from the beginning that the real profit is to be made in software, but Apple is still a proprietary hardware company that happens to also sell the software which their machines require.

If the market truly opens up, Apple may face the really tough choice of dumping their hardware line entirely. When the time comes, will they make the right choice and make the shift to software-only gracefully?

If they don't then I fear that one of the last strongholds against Microsoft market share may wither and die.

On the other hand, it will be in the best interest of the companies which produce third party hardware to keep Apple in business(after all, if Apple goes under, who will buy hardware for Mac OS?), so maybe some sort of truce will be drawn. I guess as always, it's wait and see.

Really though, despite the foreshadowing, this is good news for the market.

Re:death of Apple? (1)

Maddog_Delphi97 (173780) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914263)

That's a little bit like asking if a country like Russia can successfully change to capitalism from socialism...

If they can, fine.

If they can't, there's hell to pay and they just revert back to the old system.

So, the question is, can a company like Apple succesfully change to software-only from proprietary hardware/proprietary software?

Re:death of Apple? (1)

banky (9941) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914277)

It is unlikely (IMHO) that you'll be able to get OSX to boot on these... probably Darwin and definately Linux, but OSX is pretty tied to the hardware. IIRC it used to check to make sure you didn't have bogus RAM (ie non-Apple approved) installed.

Re:death of Apple? (1)

Mocenigo (534548) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914479)

> It is unlikely (IMHO) that you'll be able to get > OSX to boot on these... probably Darwin Then you can also run the upper layers. THese talk to the Darwin kernel. It's the idea behind having OSX on unsupported machines > OSX is pretty tied to the > hardware. IIRC it used to check to make sure you > didn't have bogus RAM (ie non-Apple approved) > installed. oh no, that was an OpenFirmware Update, not OSX, and - according to some sources - with a reason. OS X is not guilty of that...

Re:death of Apple? (1)

Mocenigo (534548) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914499)

If they can run Darwin, also the upper layer will probably run. It wasn't OSX that disabled "bogus RAM", but an OPen Firmware update.

Re:death of Apple? (2, Interesting)

feldsteins (313201) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914279)

I think you're missing the point here. None of this stuff is ready to run any version of the Mac OS or any applications developed for the Mac. There is still the issue of Apple proprietary ROMs to deal with.

So this isn't a "Mac clone" issue at all.

Apple will never allow clones in the future. At least I hope not. The only thing that makes Apple Apple is the fact that they make the hardware and the operating system, the "whole widget" as the Big Steve likes to say. I think he's absolutely right. It allows them to innovate, innovate quickly and also to take responsibility for more of the whole user experience.

If you really think about it this is the only thing that makes them truly unique in the market. Otherwise they'd be Dell or Microsoft. There's no benefit in trying to out-Dell Dell or out-Microsoft Microsoft. And even if they did who would care? Or even notice? Even if Dell went out of business tomorrow someone else would step up and give you the exact same product at the exact same price.

Apple's Niche (2)

Transient0 (175617) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914368)

You're right when you say that what makes Apple Apple is that they sell the "whole widget" in one shiny box. As a matter of fact, you're right in pretty much everything you say.

I understand that this new motherboard does not hail the immediate arrival of a Mac hardware open market, but I think that it may be a sign of things to come. If there is a sudden push towards Apple clones, I don't know if all the litigation in the world can stop the market from opening up. Remember IBM(i understand that the case presents significant differences, but the analogy holds some water).

What I'm getting at is that Apple may have to face an open market not too far in the future. And you bring up another interesting point: Can the computer market really bear two competing open market standards?

Re:Apple's Niche (1)

joshsisk (161347) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914475)

The problem with your arguement is that MacOS won't run on these motherboards. You have to have special, Apple-provided ROMs to run it. Apple isn't going to give them out. They've already won this battle, the Mac clone companies closed up shop.

Re:death of Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914359)

no, it's not the death of Apple. Apple doesn't manufacture motherboards. They sell a digital lifestyle. non-apple PPC motherboards have actually been available for quite a while. RS6000, BeBox, CHRP, a couple german companies, and the Mac Clones of yesteryear, the phantom Amiga 2001, and more.

The market for people that want a non-apple PPC motherboard is virtually nonexistant.

You're seriously clue-deficient. (2, Insightful)

greygent (523713) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914399)

Proprietary Apple hardware?

PCI? open.
USB? open.
Firewire? open.
VGA? open.
PowerPC? open.
ATI/nVidia Graphics? open.

Apple has already quickly adapted, by adopting industry-standard technologies, sans of course your blessed x86 platform. But who in their right mind likes working with the pile of shit that is the Intel platform?

Apple is less closed than Microsoft. No one says Company X can't go out there and build a PPC system. Hell, people have gotten OS X to run on a few old Power Computing (non-Apple) computers.

Re:death of Apple? (1)

parp (222416) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914576)

Lets face it, its a Microsoft world. Until you can run Windows on this hardware, thise will only be a nieche market. Just because the hardware is publicly available doesn't mean squat. How many people are going to run out and buy this? The only time Apple would have serious worries is if Microsoft sells a copy of windows that will run on a mac. Until then, Apple has a great market for selling a complete high quality integrated product.

Re:death of Apple? (2)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914631)

If the market truly opens up, Apple may face the really tough choice of dumping their hardware line entirely. When the time comes, will they make the right choice and make the shift to software-only gracefully?

If they don't then I fear that one of the last strongholds against Microsoft market share may wither and die.


You're missing something crucial here; for them to do that, the market would have to open up, and thus by definition there'd be a TON of "last bastions" making enough money to scare Apple.

But it won't open up the same way the PC market did; the time was right for computers on the desktops, IBM just got lucky to hit it at the exact right moment with enough money to fill the bill. There aren't that many people sitting around going "gee, I'd buy a computer, if somebody other than Apple made Macs." People who don't like Apple just don't buy Macs.

Doomed because of the stupid name (1, Funny)

Kopretinka (97408) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914197)

I think POP is a stupid name compared to PC:

I just bought myself a new POP!

...he spent the day working at his desktop POP...

My POP crashed again!

etc. Would you buy a POP instead of a PC?8-)

Re:Doomed because of the stupid name (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914247)

I need to POP some cherry ;-)

Re:Doomed because of the stupid name (2, Funny)

k_187 (61692) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914296)

well, lets think about this for a second. What does PC stand for?

Personal Computer.

Hmm, so wouldn't a motherboard for a personal computer also be a PC?

By jove, I think I'm right :P The Anal Retentive part of me goes into convulsions every time I see PC vs. Mac. But then I give it chocolate and it quiets down.

POP is more akin to x86 than PC (or Mac for that matter)

I need a life.

Well, knock me down with a feather. (1, Insightful)

Moderation abuser (184013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914216)

It might be worth buying PPC after all.

Cost is all important though. Motorola do PPC boards but they cost two and a half grand. WTF?

Nice board typo... (2, Funny)

Tower (37395) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914219)

I like the "Ultra DAM 100" ports... oops :)

Re:Nice board typo... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914413)

That's not a typo. DAM stands for Direct Apple Marketing. It enables Apple to pop-up ads on the user's display, which is what (eventually) will drive the price down to a sane $200 or so.

GigE chip! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914220)

The article seems to indicate that the next model would maybe have gigE; but if you check the image on the site, http://www.penguinppc.org/articles/tgall/DSCF0052. JPG , you'll see that there is a Broadcom 5703 GigE chip right over the PCI slots! woohoo!

What ever happened to CHRP? (2, Interesting)

Vanders (110092) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914223)

If POP has "been around for a few years now", whatever happened to the Common Hardware Reference Platform? Would POP be the phoenix from the ashes of CHRP by any chance?

Offtopic. (-1, Offtopic)

af_robot (553885) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914225)

PowerPC Open Platform Motherboards Finally Here
Dual 1Ghz G4 PowerMac With Extra Yummy
Mac OS X: Game Developer's Playground

Three Apple related news same date.
Let me guess...slashdot got sponsorship from Apple?

Still a little pricey... (3, Interesting)

BeBoxer (14448) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914226)

Given that they are selling evaluation boards for $3,900 in quantity 1, I think sticking with Apple might be a good idea in the short term. Since the chipset is only $30 in quantity, hopefully somebody else will begin making affordable motherboards based upon the design. But Apple doesn't charge that much for a pimped out G4 tower, even with their steep RAM markup.

What's curious is that their web page seems to indicate that the same chipset works with x86, PPC, and MIPS processors. I'm sure there are 100 reasons why it's impossible, but that kind of chipset flexibility does seem to raise some interesting dual-boot or multiprocessor setups to say the least.

Finally? (4, Informative)

stripes (3681) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914235)

Finally, we can buy PowerPC motherboards without dealing with Apple

Moto (and many others) have been selling PPC motherboards for many years, maybe close to a decade by now. They are used for a fair number of embedded projects. The two downsides are cost, and every frickn' one of them seems to have another way to interface with PCI, or to deal with the boot sequence, or something. So all the not-so-fun parts of porting an OS have to be done again and again while the rest of it "just works" (or tends to).

P.S. for a (slow) PowerPC, just buy an old TiVo. Linux comes with it, and NTSC out. Of corse it is only 50Mhz, but it works (don't get a new TiVo by mistake, they try to rip you off with one of those 200ishMhz MIPS CPUs...)

cost? (0)

ArchieBunker (132337) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914267)

They better be on par with most x86 motherboard otherwise this is gonna flop.

Did anyone check out the MAI site? (2, Interesting)

stepson (33039) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914274)

This really doesn't seem like its that great. You get a 750CX (IBM's G3), 133mhz FSB, a few PCI slots, 1 AGP 2x slot, and a few other things like ethernet etc, and its almost 4 grand. Geez! I think you'd be better off with a fancy new dual G4 + GeForce 4 (Which, of course, you won't actually be able to get until the rest of us have had GeForce 4's for months) for $3k, which is complete, and even comes with a case.

yawn (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914282)

When I read about CHRP, PReP, etc I really wanted a PPC powered system. Now I'm afraid I just don't give a damn about the G4 when the AthlonXP is here.

The G5 doesn't sound very interesting at all, although I could be wrong. Motorolla's e500 G5 core has been announced in a chip for embedded applications and doesn't seem any more interesting than the current "G4+". Maybe it'll have a few of those cores on the die and I'll be interested again, but I don't want to get my hopes up. :( I think I'll probably end up waiting for a Hammer.

Open is interesting, but working is better (3, Insightful)

shagoth (100818) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914287)

This likely won't have much impact on Apple as a whole. Frankly, after trying to make older hardware useful spending countless hours failing to have successful installs of LinuxPPC and Yellowdog Linux, I was thrilled to see that I can in fact have BSD albiet Darwin flavored without agony (and, of course, my old hardware remains unused).

Apple's ultimate desktop success with Darwin/OSX will be because users who need that kind of OS power can now have it without the niggling driver details that plague Intel OS distributions. It amazes me that Linux has been as successful as it has with the agony that users have to endure to successfully install the OS. The bar is much higher now. Users can expect their OS install to just happen and still have the power tools of compilers and real server software without the electronic equivalent of repeatedly stabbing themselves in the leg with a fork.

Of course, the die hard slashdot crowd will always prefer Linux, but it seems to me that things are shifting to a new and friendlier approach.

Re:Open is interesting, but working is better (1)

rtscts (156396) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914452)

without the niggling driver details that plague Intel OS distributions. It amazes me that Linux has been as successful as it has with the agony that users have to endure to successfully install the OS.

What the fuck are you smoking? Installing is the EASIEST way to get the system configured and fully functional. It's the changing shit afterwards that's the problem.

Hmmmm.... (-1, Offtopic)

The_Iconcolast_666 (239933) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914315)

This reminds me of all the times I've been modded down.... so FUCK YOUS MODERATORS!

Mod this shit down... I'm going to eventually have more negative karma than any of you... muahahahahahahahahahaha!

A glimmer of hope? (1)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914330)

Hopefully the price will go down, because I know a ton of people who would buy a PPC motherboard just for the novelty factor (I already have my Mac, thanks very much.)

The problem here for Apple is that Mac OS X will probably run on any of these motherboards, since the Mac OS doesn't require Apple's boot ROMs anymore. Suddenly, Apple loses its main revenue stream (hardware). I've seen a lot of companies promise PPC motherboards over the years-SiliconFruit, Eternal Computing, etc. But they've all vanished (bought off by Apple?)

Wonder how long it will take before this company shuffles off into the night...

This could be good for Apple (2, Insightful)

lordfetish (48651) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914381)

The more people that use POP, the more processors that IBM & Motorola can sell - this helps the old economies of scale kick in and make PPC processors cheaper.

Cheaper PPCs would help AIM compete with the commodity x86 marketplace.

$4000 PPC motherboards have been around for years (4, Interesting)

Nelson (1275) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914385)

High priced reference platforms have never been in short supply. If I'm going to buy a $5000 system then getting an alpha, mips, sparc, or POWER/powerpc has never been difficult.


I own a couple of pieces of alpha hardware and it's fun in a geeky way to have. It's nice to test code on other platforms, it's nice to be able to learn assembly to other platforms and have something to work on, and a 21264 makes a hell of a web server. I'd love to have a newer PowerPC machine to work on but the prices just aren't there. If I could buy a motherboard and processor for $400-$500 maybe even $600 then I could easily see a little clique of people doing it. I can see real market value to it as well, I've seen 6 or 7 embedded jobs over the last month that were for PowerPC products.


I hope that they are interested in lowering the prices and ramping up some mass production of the hardware. I could also see a huge market for lower priced integrated PowerPC motherboards with G3s or even 60x processors on them; put 3 NICs, IDE and a PowerPC on a motherboard for $200 and you have a nice DIY home gateway/firewall/router box.

Apple still has the advantage (2, Insightful)

BobTheJanitor (114890) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914406)

Regardless of the degree of difficulty in kludging darwin to run on the POP boards, you're still missing out on the one thing that has set Apple apart in the computer industry: the tight interweaving of hardware and software. The most attractive feature of a mac, the guarantee that your mac stuff will run, is not really available to those who use the POP board.
I can't understand why it excites any of you to be able to by a PowerPC chip from someone other than Apple. My dual processor G4 was reasonably cheap, Apple was friendly, and the package arrived quickly and was ready to go 90 seconds out of the box. Just don't buy an Apple monitor and don't get a ram upgrade (it takes regular PC133). It came out to be something like $2300, quite a bit cheaper than the $3500 for the board, plus (as noted previously), the GeForce *grin*.

Teron PX Board supports PPC, MIPS, and X86 (5, Funny)

paladino (156081) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914435)

I think it would be great to have one motherboard [mai.com] that supported processors from multiple vendors. Mai's web site says that the Teron PX board will support PPC, MIPS, and X86 processors.

Brings a whole new meaning to "Dual Boot".

You could develop in X86 Linux, shutdown swap processors, reboot in PPC Linux recompile and test.

Re:Teron PX Board supports PPC, MIPS, and X86 (2)

cswiii (11061) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914451)

What? And spoil my uptime? ;)

Re:Teron PX Board supports PPC, MIPS, and X86 (1)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914623)

That's OK, Linux has Hot Swap CPU [iu.edu] support.

:)

Finally! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914510)

Holy Shit! finally!

Open PPC Platform boxes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914514)

Imagine a Beowolf Cluster of THESE!!!

Re:Open PPC Platform boxes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914638)

Imagine
John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

deja vu... (2, Interesting)

gkbarr (124078) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914548)

says the kid with a PowerComputing box.

How M$ made this unimportant (2, Insightful)

jonbrewer (11894) | more than 12 years ago | (#2914615)

A long time ago I watched the rags weekly for news of CHRP PPC boards. This was in the age of NT4, which shipped with binaries for Alpha, i386, PowerPC, (MIPS?) on each CD. PowerPC was going to be an excellent platform for computationally intensive problems on NT. Combined with Apple machines, PowerPC was going to be one of the big players in the desktop and workstation market.

Once M$ gave up on support for PowerPC for NT, PowerPC was instantly marginalized as a workstation platform. Sure it's fantastic in Macs, IBM workstations, and massively parallel supercomputers, but without NT support this PenguinPPC announcement really means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

EXPENSIVE (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2914637)

Why does it cost so much? I can see $200-$400 dollars but not almost $4k. Perhaps because its a prototype and its not really "massed produced"?
anybody have a possible explanation to why its so much?
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