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Raisethefist.com Raided

michael posted more than 12 years ago | from the poking-the-anthill dept.

News 883

mfb and others wrote in about a raid on the operator of raisethefist.com last week. It was first reported on Indymedia.org here and here, followed by an LA Weekly article. By far the best news piece so far is this one from Newsbytes.

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883 comments

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you trust the shit from indymedia? (-1)

Anomymous Coward (303315) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932103)

oh come on, indymedia is about as respectable as the fucking inquirer.

Here's a question for you... (-1)

five dollar troll (541247) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932105)

Did you know that "fist" can be a VERB, too?? Ask JonKatz and his little boy Junis!!!

oh, and FIRST post!!

Modern witch-hunt (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932135)

Unfortunately after this nasty incident [thesun.co.uk] went public in spite of Slashdot's brave attempts to suppress it, Jon [thesun.co.uk] hasn't been able to walk in public with Junis anymore.

If anything's a modern day witch-hunt, this is it!

Page widening & Lengthening Day!!! (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932109)

[goatse.cx]
2Lameness has filtered me!

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Re:Page widening & Lengthening Day!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932147)

You are funny man, yah!
You are early poster too!
You so fucking clever!

spellchekc, anyoen? (1)

phawley (8865) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932114)

...plus, I never trust a media outlet who can neither spell, nor use spellcheck. ;)

"They sorounded the house with guns before raiding it." - RTF Founder

Re:spellchekc, anyoen? (-1)

Anomymous Coward (303315) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932133)

In the interview, Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so.

SO where's the problem?

You've got a kid, who cracks into sites, defaces them, and produces bomb-making instructions on his own site. The illegal acts justify "raiding" his residence, and the history of hostility justifies the show of force.

I see no problem here.

Hmmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932117)

So now the way to get a story posted is to spam it offtopic repeatedly first? Yum, the new slashdot.

Good (-1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932121)

Lets get these commie bastards out of this country once and for all. I hate all these ultra left wing faschist whackjobs. Oh and on a related note linux appears nowhere on Netcraft's longest uptimes chart. Its all BSD and Irix. Put that in your pipe and smoke it lamers.

The problem? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932125)

What exactly is the problem here? An obviously terroristic organization has been properly shut down. We should be thanking the FBI because these people clearly support murder for the advancement of their sick political ideology.

Anyone who is against in the FBI in this is on the side of terrorists.

Because of his *opinions*? (5, Insightful)

kingdon (220100) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932130)

OK, this guy says that he was busted because the government didn't like his opinions, but in fact he had been cracking web sites and putting in that troop.cgi thing. Somehow that doesn't sound like an opinion to me. There's also the question of bomb-making information which is potentially thornier, but also isn't really opinion (at least, not opinion about globalization - opinion about bomb policy I suppose might be a bit more debateable).

Re:Because of his *opinions*? (3, Insightful)

betis70 (525817) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932181)

Yeah doesn't like an opinion to me either. Sounds like criminal activity, which appears to be dealt with properly.

Dunno how this gets put on slashdot as "news for nerds, stuff that MATTERS".

Re:Because of his *opinions*? (5, Insightful)

Derkec (463377) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932287)


I could see his arguement. He's going to jail because of his opinion that it was ok to crack into other people's pages, deface them and try to attack army computers. Since he acted on his opinion and violated various laws, he's pretty much screwed. The guy clearly is out of touch with reality if he expects the police to knock on the door of an anti-government type and nicely ask, "I'm sorry, but could we have your computer?"


Regarding what I assume will be a 1st amendment type of defense. You can speak freely so long as you don't trample of the rights of others. When you facilitate and encourage the use of weapons to hurt people or property you are outside of 1st amend. protection. Likewise when you deface a website to get your message across, your efforts to communicate have come at the expense of someone else's right to do the same and so aren't protected.

Re:Because of his *opinions*? (1)

vandemar (82106) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932256)

He said that if he goes to jail, it will be because of his opinions. Clearly he has broken the law by defacing websites and what not, but does that warrant the treatment he's going through? It seems like the government is pulling another Kevin Mitnick here. They're blowing things way out of proportion.

no (-1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932281)

Hack a few .mil boxes and see how many SWAT guys show up at 4am. Fuck with the big guys and then cry when they arrest you.

Re:Because of his *opinions*? (2, Insightful)

portnoy (16520) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932303)

Clearly he has broken the law by defacing websites and what not, but does that warrant the treatment he's going through?
What treatment? They confiscated some equipment (which was probably used during the commission of the crime), and talked to him for six hours.

Come back when they actually do something to him.

Re:Bombmaking (1)

GungaDan (195739) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932257)

How is this any different from the already-established right of some wackjob or another to publish the Anarchist's Cookbook? Is it OK to publish bomb-making instructions on paper, but not on the web? I think the bomb-making stuff is the least of this kid's worries. The whole troop.cgi deal may be more damaging for him, although it does appear that this was done before website defacement became the equivalent of terrorism, so I would think he's safe from ex-post-facto application of the new (anti)patriot laws.

Or he could be in a cage in gitmo right now awaiting his state-sanctioned murder.

Hun? (4, Funny)

Quasar1999 (520073) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932132)

In yet another successfull attempt to silence our vioces, Raisethefist.com, an anarchist/activist independent media/collective has been shut down by the secret service.

Secret service? They ain't doing a good job if slashdot knows... :P

Re:Hun? (-1)

Anomymous Coward (303315) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932156)

FBI, not secret service. read a real report (ie: the newsbytes article), instead of faulty amatuer attempts (ie: indymedia).

Not so Secret Service (3, Interesting)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932233)

It's only called the Secret Service. In addition to keeping W alive, they have jurisdiction over counterfeiting and some computer "trespass" crimes.

The first time I ever heard of them was when JFK was killed. The name was so incongruous, some people who hadn't heard of them before didn't realize that their role was bodyguard, not assasin.

They are the oldest federal law enforcement agency, dating back the 1870s. I've never researched it, but I've often suspected that their name is a kind of euphimism. States rights was the biggest issue in those days (you may have heard about the Civil War), so "Secret Service" may have been easier to sell than "Treasury Police".

Seems ok (0)

astrotek (132325) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932136)

The site seemed to be advocating the use of violence to solve means. Information on how to cause havok and insitute anarchy doesnt sit well with me and I dont seem why this is an issue.

If the site was about peaceful protest, eg marches and sit-ins then I'd have a problem with it being shut down. But it wasnt about peaceful protest from what I can gather. So I beleive the investigation is fully justified.

Re:Seems ok (4, Insightful)

Kaa (21510) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932182)

The site seemed to be advocating the use of violence to solve means. Information on how to cause havok and insitute anarchy doesnt sit well with me and I dont seem why this is an issue.

Well, it so happens that the founders of the US forgot to include "but not if it talks about violence" part when they were writing the First Amendment -- you know, the "free speech" one. Actually, it seems to me the were pretty violent guys themselves -- starting a war and all that.

And if that guy's site was the first one where the feds found the bomb-making informations on the 'net... [rolls his eyes]

Re:Seems ok (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932231)

First amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Doesn't seem to me that they are advocating violence in there either.

This is not new (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932273)

Advocating violence like this has always been illegal. Read a history book before you go off spouting inane "Why are they taking my rights away?" bullshit. It's ok to stand up at a klan rally and say, "These niggers are ruining our lives." It's not ok to continue by saying "So let's string em all up!"

Free speech verses private rights (2)

Marx_Mrvelous (532372) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932302)

There is a very obvious line where "free speech" is no longer important. When you are actively inciting people to violence against each other, it becomes criminal.

We also have the right to pursue happiness, but if I'm only happy killing and raping people, I certainly can't do that.

Re:Seems ok (-1)

Anomymous Coward (303315) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932205)

He wasnt raided because of the content on the site...

He was raided because he hacked [amorphous-...ctions.com] into, and then defaced [sans.org] , commercial [aspects.org] sites [agh.edu.pl] .

Re:Seems ok (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932301)

For better or worse, it is completely legal to distribute information on how to use violence to solve means.

Re:Seems ok (2, Interesting)

the Man in Black (102634) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932322)

If the site was about peaceful protest, eg marches and sit-ins then I'd have a problem with it being shut down. But it wasnt about peaceful protest from what I can gather. So I beleive the investigation is fully justified.

The hypocritical sheep mentality on this site is really beginning to piss me off. We're up in arms about a software company abusing it's monopolistic status, we shout from the heavens about our so-called righte being taken away. But who does anything about it? Who says anything? Who does anything but bitch on this website?

This 18-year old kid got into some political literature and posted a website detailing his views on what the US government is doing both domestically and internationally to create to the best of their ability a global imperialism. Maybe you agree with his methods, maybe you don't. But it is his constitutional right to express his views in whatever way he deems appropriate. It is not the Government's right to say "Peaceful, organized protest is OK, but anything else (like posting a call to action website) is illegal and we will kick in your door with machine guns and drag you out of your house." Give me a break. To equate domestic political disagreement with terrorism sounds more like Communist China (Tienamen Square, anyone?) than the United States. I think all of us have forgotten why this country was founded in the first place:

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed....whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


E-mail me, don't hide behind moderation!

This guy's a bit of a hypocrite (4, Insightful)

parliboy (233658) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932161)

From the newsbytes article: On three of the sites, Austin left behind a hacking program named troop.cgi that was designed to attempt to log in to a computer operated by the U.S. Army, the FBI affidavit stated.

In the interview, Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so. But he defended the act by saying it was necessary to get his message out.

...

"If I go to jail, then I will go to jail not based on my actions, but based on what I think," he said.

No, you incredibly idiotic dipshit. You are going to be Bubba's bitch because you hacked government websites, and in fact admitted it. Please, don't try to defend him -- it's guys like this that give us a bad name and deserved to be ostracized from the community at large.

Re:This guy's a bit of a hypocrite (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932298)

How about the following bit:

According to the FBI, Austin operated Raisethefist.com as well as a site for his fledgling Web development business, 2CP.com,

So, on one hand he wants to overthrow the Constitution and the government, and whines about evil money-grubbing corporations. Yet, he doesn't hesitate running a business of his own, which 1. takes advantage of the economic framework protected by the government, and 2. exists to make money.

They wanted to put the scare into him (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932164)

as evidenced by his not being either dead or in jail.

Welcome to the future (0, Interesting)

Meowharishi (550240) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932168)

And poof, overnight, our world has changed into this.

Sci-Fi is coming true, yeah?

I don't see it changing anytime soon, either..

Terrorists want to kill us all. Planet Corporate wants to own all knowledge and charge us for it. Government wants to label everything that is not consistent with the propaganda being spouted on CNN as "Evil" and throw us all in jail.

Anyone have any paranoid predictions they'd like to share where this is all going?

No, kiddies, I don't think Linux will save you.

oh please (-1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932204)

Read the article for fucks sake "On three of the sites, Austin left behind a hacking program named troop.cgi that was designed to attempt to log in to a computer operated by the U.S. Army, the FBI affidavit stated"

Hacking federal computers will get you raided. Whats the big deal?

Re:Welcome to the future (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932293)

You're an idiot!!!! Nevermind the kid's actually confessed to doing illegal activities. Guys like this give us a badf name! Go back to the rock you crawled out of you moron.

Re:Welcome to the future (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932320)

And you'd prefer to remain ignorant of the fact that just about everything that is not approved by corporate america is illegal nowadays, right?

Overkill? (3, Insightful)

The Gardener (519078) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932171)

"People can rant and rave on the Internet all they want, but when they cross the line of calling people to action to violently overthrow the Constitution of the United States, they have a problem," said McLaughlin.

So when just another lone hacker kid defaces five Web sites, it justifies "surrounding and raiding [the] house with machine guns, shotguns, bullet-proof vests." Being labeled a hacker (correctly, this time) is really getting to be as dangerous as being called a child molester.

The Gardener

Re:Overkill? (2)

berzerke (319205) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932232)

Actually, I don't think the would have come in so heavily armed if it was just a child molester. :^)

Re:Overkill? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932236)

He is one stupid puppy and for that reason alone he needs to be separated from the rest of society.
Throw the book at him.
He deserves it.

Re:Overkill? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932249)

I actually like the FBI's response:

"This is Los Angeles after all. We always go in to protect ourselves. We don't go in with slingshots,"

Re:Overkill? (3, Insightful)

Stonehand (71085) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932250)

Given that he also disseminated information about the design of explosives and advocated the violent overthrow of the government, it makes one heck of a lot of sense. He might have been a nutcase who actually was ready to practice what he preached, rather than the digital equivalent of a delusional graffiti artist.

Re:Overkill? (3, Insightful)

clarkgoble (241742) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932266)

He was a hacker who promoted explosives and violence. Further he was a hacker who was promoting the violent overthrow of the government. No offense, but the police would have been idiots to go in unarmed. It's not like they used the weapons. The arrest went well. But they didn't know that.

What if it turned out the kind had schitzophrenic and was armed with those bombs that he was publishing? Yeah he probably wasn't, but how did the police know that? Its not like they violated any rights. They served a warrant and tried to do so in as safe a manner as possible.

Geeze.

Re:Overkill? (2)

Quikah (14419) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932270)

Well the prog he left behind on the systems was attacking a US Army computer. So yeah, you poke at the US government they poke back.

Dumbass. (5, Insightful)

sulli (195030) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932172)

According to Newsbytes:

According to the FBI, Austin allegedly defaced at least five commercial Web sites since 1999 using the nickname "Ucaun." On three of the sites, Austin left behind a hacking program named troop.cgi that was designed to attempt to log in to a computer operated by the U.S. Army, the FBI affidavit stated. In the interview, Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so. But he defended the act by saying it was necessary to get his message out.

Okay, so this guy was an admitted website defacer who posted denial of service tools on victim websites and knew it was illegal but did it anyway.. That he was doing it for some "anticorporate revolution" doesn't matter one iota.

But what I really loved was his comment, later in the article:

"But how many of us are really willing to engage in such an intense form of warfare through bauds and wires? Who's got the balls? Who's willing to sacrifice everything?" said the page.

Who indeed? Let's start with this numbskull. I say throw the book at him.

oooh .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932197)

a "web site defacer" how evil .... let's throw the book at him .... kinda like they did to Martin Luther

Re:oooh .... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932228)

I don't think anyone was throwing any books at Martin Luther. That was one of the things he was complaining about, i.e. that lay persons were instructed to not read for themselves.

Re:oooh .... (1)

RazzleFrog (537054) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932297)

I'm not sure I would say that nailing a challenge to the Catholic Church on a church door equal to posting Anti-Government agenda on commerical websites, planting software and advocating violence.

Re:Dumbass. (5, Insightful)

haizi_23 (32026) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932223)

agreed. i am very much concerned with the impact of increasing corporate control over our public life, but this idiot is not my spokesperson.

when you want to mount successful political opposition, you start by keeping your nose squeaky clean so that no one can defame your character when the real work of change begins. this kid obviously didn't get that.

-w

Hey! Don't slashdot this site! (5, Funny)

jaxdahl (227487) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932176)

From the site:

NEWSFLASH raisethefist.com is running out of current allocated bandwidth. In just two days we have used over 130MB of data transfer. The limit is 512MB per month. That means we will run out of bandwidth in less than a week. If we do, the site will be shut down indefinitely. We need to move to another web host in order to keep the site up and updated with official information for its visitors. If you would like to donate space, the e-mail contact information is on the bottom of this page.

I think it's a bad idea to link directly to his site.. We could end up costing him a lot of money in bandwidth terms.

Re:Hey! Don't slashdot this site! (2, Funny)

pyite (140350) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932271)

Darn. He wanted to be heard. He got it.

Re:Hey! Don't slashdot this site! (5, Funny)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932290)

> > raisethefist.com is running out of current allocated bandwidth. In just two days we have used over 130MB of data transfer. The limit is 512MB per month. [ ... ]
> I think it's a bad idea to link directly to his site.. We could end up costing him a lot of money in bandwidth terms.

1) L33t d00d defaces websites and acknowledges that he knew doing so was illegal.

2) L33t d00d posts denial-of-service tools on the defaced websites.

3) L33t d00d then whines about his bandwidth bills arising from the Slashdot effect.

Payback's a bitch, ain't it, skr1pt k1ddi3?

There's only one fist that needs to be raised here, and the FBI knows exactly where to raise it. And after the FBI's finished reaming out his bank account, I hope his bandwidth provider takes whatever's left.

Hey! DO slashdot this site! (1)

sulli (195030) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932296)

This guy deserves everything he gets. What, he can't handle a little publicity? Doesn't he want to SACRIFICE for the cause?

Re:Hey! Don't slashdot this site! (1, Insightful)

clarkgoble (241742) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932311)

It's my version of a legal denial of service. Turn about it fair play. What was it those other activist idiots were calling this thing? A virtual sit-in? This is slash-dot's virtual sit in.

if we post a lot of bomb stuff on slashbot (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932178)

will the fbi raid them? I bet the slash crew would love spending a little time in jail, especially katz.

Internet Wayback Machine (5, Informative)

Zach Garner (74342) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932179)

Thanks to Archive.org [archive.org] , we can use the Internet Wayback Machine to view the site: Jan 23 [archive.org] or other days [archive.org]

They're kidding, right? (5, Funny)

BadDoggie (145310) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932180)

Who needs the FBI and a warrant to shut down a site? Post the URL here and the effect will toast the place. We kill sites for an entire month when they have transfer limits, even when we like them.

woof.

Move along now, nothing to moderate here.

Re:They're kidding, right? (-1)

The BOFH Troll (549884) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932193)

CmdrTaco can just rape them if needed. He is always in need of giving his love out.

Welcome to the NWO (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932183)

As Bush's father said, welcome to the New World Order, slave. Now get back to work!

Newsbytes article (1, Redundant)

maddman75 (193326) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932185)

Here's the content of the article, in case it gets slashdotted.

In a case that may test limits on Internet free speech in the wake of Sept. 11, armed federal agents last week raided the home of a Los Angeles teenager suspected of hacking into several Web sites to post anarchist messages and using his own site, Raisethefist.com, to publish bomb-making information.
Sherman Martin Austin, 18, is believed to have violated federal computer fraud and abuse laws, as well as statutes prohibiting the distribution of bomb-making information, according to an FBI affidavit.

FBI agents conducted the raid on the afternoon of Jan. 24 at the Sherman Oaks residence owned by Austin's mother after receiving a federal warrant. The agents seized several computers and documents, according to an FBI spokesperson.

In an interview Wednesday, Austin told Newsbytes he was interrogated for more than six hours but has not yet been charged with any crimes.

According to Austin, all of the site's files, which were dedicated to "the anti-corporate globalization movement," were lost as a result of the raid. The site had received approximately 700 unique visitors each day, he said.

"I think they are a bunch of cheap shots, surrounding and raiding my house with machine guns, shotguns, bullet-proof vests. They had more artillery than they use with wanted gang felons or raids on drug operations," said Austin.

Matthew McLaughlin, a representative of the FBI's Los Angeles field office, confirmed that agents who conducted the search were heavily armed.

"This is Los Angeles after all. We always go in to protect ourselves. We don't go in with slingshots," said McLaughlin.

A message at the Raisethefist.com site today described the raid and said the incident was proof that "anyone actively disagreeing with policies of the U.S is now automatically rendered a 'terrorist' in the eyes of national security."

Following the Sept.11 attacks on America, Congress passed the USA Patriot Act, which expand the ability of law enforcement to hunt for terrorists.

"People can rant and rave on the Internet all they want, but when they cross the line of calling people to action to violently overthrow the Constitution of the United States, they have a problem," said McLaughlin.

According to the FBI, Austin allegedly defaced at least five commercial Web sites since 1999 using the nickname "Ucaun." On three of the sites, Austin left behind a hacking program named troop.cgi that was designed to attempt to log in to a computer operated by the U.S. Army, the FBI affidavit stated.

In the interview, Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so. But he defended the act by saying it was necessary to get his message out.

Copies of several of the defaced pages are accessible using the cache stored by the Google search engine. The defacements contain white and red text on a black background, with the title "Hacked by the UCA - Underground Confidential Association" and a verbose screed about overthrowing the government and building a "New World Order."

According to the FBI, Austin operated Raisethefist.com as well as a site for his fledgling Web development business, 2CP.com, from computers in his home connected to the Internet by DSL.

Copies of the site's pages cached by Google include instructions on how to make explosives from pipes, fertilizer, and match heads.

In the interview, Austin said he did not write the bomb instructions but instead copied the pages from another site.

Another page, entitled "Hacking," notes that the Department of Defense and other government agencies are dependent upon information technology and are therefore vulnerable to computer attacks.

"But how many of us are really willing to engage in such an intense form of warfare through bauds and wires? Who's got the balls? Who's willing to sacrifice everything?" said the page.

The domain registration record for Raisethefist.com lists Austin as the administrative, technical, and billing contact for the site. Austin said he "made up" the name listed as the site's registrant, Joseph Parker, "for security reasons" and noted that he has received threats because of the site's anti-government message.

According to Austin, he has been targeted by the government simply because he advocates social justice.

"If I go to jail, then I will go to jail not based on my actions, but based on what I think," he said.

Raise The Fist is at http://www.raisethefist.com .

Reported by Newsbytes, http://www.newsbytes.com .

(20020130/WIRES TOP, ONLINE, LEGAL/FBI/PHOTO)

Jesus Christ (5, Interesting)

elefantstn (195873) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932191)

So this guy is actively cracking and defacing websites, including attempting to break into Army systems, and he's whining about being arrested?

Next person who whines that he's the victim of the fascist Ashcroftian regime gets beat over the head with a clue-by-four. I'd be pretty pissed if he was hacking my site "so he could get his message out." What a loser.

That was an "arrest"!? (1)

LionKimbro (200000) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932299)

Uh, no. He's whining about having his house and street covered by hoards of armed agents.

Just send the police after the teenager, no need to make it a national ordeal.

Deserved to be busted, (3, Insightful)

Mr Krinkle (112489) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932194)

This guy is not a martyr. He was stupid and chose to piss in the US gov's wheaties. If you disagree with policies in the US we can still voice or beliefs freely. What noone is allowed to do and should not do is encite a riot. He was trying to do just this. He has messages claiming for everyone to unite and overthrow the US gov. Does that make him a threat? YES. Should the gov have reacted to him as a threat, YES. Did they need to go in their fully armed to and ready for battle? Yes. Police have information that they are to bust someone who has attacked multiple sites and attempted to attack military targets, plus he has been trying to get other people to use violence and weapons to overthrow the gov. He also instructs how to create bombs and other weapons on his site. They had to assume he would be armed. The only way to deal with that is with overwhelming force.
As long as the go ahead and press charges in a timely manner the gov has done the right thing in this case.

Alan Thicke DEAD. :( (-1)

Alan_Thicke (553655) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932195)

I just heard the sad news on CBC radio. Comedy actor/writer Alan Thicke was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never watched his work, you can appreciate what he did for 80's television. Truly a Canadian icon.
He will be missed :(

Show me That Smile (The Growing Pains Theme Song):

Show me that smile again.
Ooh show me that smile.
Don't waste another minute on your crying.
We're nowhere near the end.
We're nowhere near.
The best is ready to begin.

As long as we got each other
We got the world
Sitting right in our hands.
Baby rain or shine;
All the time.
We got each other
Sharing the laughter and love.

Slant-Six Flashback... (5, Interesting)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932196)

Before Slant-Six sank, they had an interesting article on how to confuse the future terrorists. Put up anarchist sites, but provide bogus info. Setup bomb-making instructions that make silly putty or something. The more sites like that that pop-up, the less likely a terrorist will discover the correct bomb-making papers. The point is to fight terrorists by making the internet a place that they can't trust...

I wonder how the FBI would react to those kinds of sites...

Free Speech or Freedom to be a Dumbass? (1, Redundant)

Uttles (324447) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932200)

In the interview, Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so. But he defended the act by saying it was necessary to get his message out.

OK, OK, let's get this straight before a huge anarchist/hacker/terrorist flamewar gets started. The kid has the right to say what he wants, no matter what it is. He has the right to even say bad things about America, that's the beauty of our government, and no, the terrorist attacks haven't changed that. What he doesn't have the right to do is actively organize counter-US operations, at whatever scale. This idiot not only hacked government websites, but then promptly admitted doing so. He's going to be tossing salads for the next few years and it's strictly because the little shit deserves it, not because of some anti-freedom government movement.

violently overthrow the Constitution? (5, Insightful)

Tyrannosaurus (203173) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932210)

"People can rant and rave on the Internet all they want, but when they cross the line of calling people to action to violently overthrow the Constitution of the United States, they have a problem," said McLaughlin.


That would be correct. The United States of America is all for free speech. It's also a democracy, where you can elect a new government to install new laws if you disagree with the current state of affairs. Elected officials (who presumably represent a majority of the populace) will eventually populate the group responsible for interpreting the Constitution, the Supreme Court. Therefore, in a theoretical sense (before you start screaming about corporate america owning the politicians), the people do control the government.


By ignoring the political route and espousing the virtues of a violent overthrow, you have now entered the realm of "terrorist" or "freedom fighter." In a country where the freedom of speech is guaranteed in the very Constitution you want to do away with, you are more than likely to be considered a terrorist. And frankly, I would agree with that assessment.


Here's a suggestion: if you don't like the system and don't feel like changing the system, take your bombs and move to Columbia or the middle east.

He's a Criminal. (2)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932214)

"If I go to jail, then I will go to jail not based on my actions, but based on what I think,"

Wrong. His actions include defacing websites and distributing information on how to make bombs. Either of those are crimes and punishable by law. He's not some little pacifist sitting in a corner getting picked on by The Man.

If you want to find a poster boy for "Thought Police Victim" find a better specimen.

Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932215)

I've got no problem with them being shut down. If for no other reason than to get such a poorly designed and edited site off the web. This guy can't even spell.

Seems to me that if you are too stupid to even run a spell checker on your site before publishing it, you ought not have a site.

Plus, don't even get me started on the illegal and anti-social activities of this schmuck.

.

Guy's final comment (2, Interesting)

clarkgoble (241742) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932216)

In the Newsbytes article it ends with the guy saying, "If I go to jail, then I will go to jail not based on my actions, but based on what I think." If there is one thing I'm sure of it is that if he goes to jail it will be because of what he did. It sounds like from the article that they got the goods on him for hacking.

No offense, but hacking government sites in this post 9/11 era is pretty dumb. Doing so when you are a person who, like bin Laden, encourages people to violence against the United States, simply means you are nothing more than a terrorist tango.

Don't get me wrong. I think the government has overstepped itself in how it deals with hackers quite a bit. I support the EFF but this guy just ain't one I feel any sympathy for. Hell I downloaded the Anarchist's Cookbook and so forth back when I was his age too. But if he thinks anything ought to go, then he is got some serious mental illness.

Way to go Secret Service.

Nothing horribly new here (3, Interesting)

T.E.D. (34228) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932217)

It appears that he was arrested for two things:
  1. Cracking and defacing websites. Clearly an illegal activity. Perhaps it shouldn't be treated as anything more than vandalism, but it's reasonable to involve the Feds, since some of the sites certianly weren't in his home state.
  2. Advocating the violent overthrow of the government. I'm not entirely sure that I agree with this particular law. It was enacted in the early 20th century, cheifly to give the government a reason to arrest Communists who hadn't committed a crime. So its not exactly a new law. If you disagree with it, fine. But then where the heck were you and your complaints the last 50 years when Communists were getting thrown in jail because of it?

Another non-news story (2)

Wind_Walker (83965) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932218)

This guy admits to illegally cracking into at least 5 websites to post his "anarchy message" and defends it by saying "It was necessary to get the word out"? Come on, people!

Computer cracking was illegal well before 9-11.

common sense? (2, Insightful)

Ubergrendle (531719) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932221)

From the newsbytes article: "In the interview, Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so. But he defended the act by saying it was necessary to get his message out." So he acknowledges he does something illegal, and then complains about being arrested? SWAT team may be overkill for an 18 punk hacker, but then again there were instructions on bomb making materials. In the heightened state of alert for all police forces since Sept 11, they'd be foolish not to be prepared. People may try to simplify this to a "free speech" or "destruction of the free internet" argument, but I think this case is pretty much cut and dried.

Raise the fist (2, Insightful)

sargon666777 (555498) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932222)

Looking at what info I found on a mirror of the old site (already down im afraid). It looks as if they were more than a tad on the extremist side. For one he knowingly admits to circumventing the law in order to "get his message out" that was his first mistake. Second he appears to have information that more or less (at least implies) that the goverment needs to be overthrown (not changed). The diffrence being overthrowing consitutes violence where changing implies through voting and so forth. Sounds to me like this bust was a good thing. Not a bad one

Disaster Recovery! (1)

YouAreFatMan (470882) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932224)

I had the site backed up on a CD-ROM, which they took.

Can you say "offsite backups"?

Though, I will admit that "FBI Raid" is not really one of the contingencies that I'm specifically thinking of when creating my company's database backup plan...

------------

Here we go again... (1)

TechnoLust (528463) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932225)

OK, he broke the law, he got arrested. If he had been wearing a flag shirt and reading the Wall Street journal, none of us would have seen this. Since his views are anarchistic, he's "being censored" or repressed or whatever media buzzword you want to use to make up a reason to run a story that doesn't matter. Throw him in jail and move on.

addendum... (1)

TechnoLust (528463) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932277)

If you don't agree with the laws that he broke, that fine... let's discuss that. But here's my argument (see my sig)... I should be able to do just about anything on my PC, but when I start doing things to OTHER people's machines, that's where I am for laws.

Publish bomb instructions, go to jail (3, Interesting)

Da VinMan (7669) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932226)

Is it really any more complicated than that?

Yeah, they're using more muscle than what they needed. They really didn't need to seize all of his political literature, unless maybe they consider it evidence of his highly anti-establishment attitude.

It all seems a bit extreme. But didn't he break the law? Isn't the law a good one? I mean, how many of us really want our neighbors and other assorted yokels having the knowledge to construct bombs out of legally available materials? I'm not so sure I want that available to everyone.

It's one thing to have and even construct guns. Bombs are a whole new level though. It may infringe on his free speech rights, but his free speech can easily lead to depriving someone else (or many others) of their lives.

now all they need to do.. (1)

b-side.org (533194) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932230)

is raid google to get the cached version of the site [google.com] as well.

neener!

Re:now all they need to do.. (1)

b-side.org (533194) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932252)

here's another [archive.org] mirror of the site.

guess GWB isn't a big fan of anti-oil company activist sites. go figgah!

btw, RTF can F'ing die having those damned casino on web popups.

Big Brother? (2)

maniac11 (88495) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932234)

Since 1999, raisethefist.com has been under extensive government monitering. At times, Raisethefist.com has recieved over 100 hits from the U.S Department of Defense in a single day. The FBI, police department, NSA (and who else) continuesly monitered the site on a daily basis. Even government's from the UK, Canada, Lavtia, Belgium, Egypt, Finland, and Australia monitered the site continuesly. The FBI had also previously intercepted all packets going through the DSL line hosting the site, and have seized additional accounts being used by the site.


This is verging on redundant, but was any of this monitoring done with a warrant? Is the US Government allowed unfettered ability to monitor (or intercept!) network traffic? This doesn't seem right.

Re:Big Brother? (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932265)

all he got were "hits" from government sites. I am on a government network right now - that doesn't mean I am "monitoring" slashdot.

Or maybe I am.

hacking sites, true, but... (1)

macsox (236590) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932240)

it is interesting that, as noted in the newsbytes articles, the scale of the assault was far greater than might have been expected given the 'crimes'. why do you need fbi, police, etc. in such large numbers to take down a cracker?

i think this raid speaks either to the hold that business has on our (usian) law enforcement agencies or to the fact that he truly was being targetted for his viewpoints as well.

how to make bombs (2)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932241)

Ok,

This brings up a hard pill for me to swallow. On one hand, Freedom of Speech is protected. I agree with this. However, what happens when your freedoms are put in jeopardy because of information out there like this? Some information just shouldn't be out there. There is NO reason someone should be posting how to make a bomb on the web. If you can find a reason they should, please enlighten me. (Freedom of Speech aside, I am referring to real, honest to God reasons for this being out there)

thanks

Re:how to make bombs (5, Insightful)

danheskett (178529) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932292)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This is the 1st amendment.

No speech or press by a person can ever be censored for any reason, ever. Period.

"Good reasons" or "bad reasons" or "good information" or "some information shouldnt be out there" isn't good enough.

Don't like it? Change the Constitution. Most people would support an amendment making it illegal to pass around bomb-making information. I do.

Darwinian logic. (2)

Matey-O (518004) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932243)

I don't understand how people who are so 'smart' try to disseminate a message so stupidly.

Case is point:
'Austin acknowledged that he vandalized the Web sites and that he knew it was illegal to do so. But he defended the act by saying it was necessary to get his message out.'

and

'"If I go to jail, then I will go to jail not based on my actions, but based on what I think," he said. '

If he's smart enough to collect this kind of following, why is it that he ISN'T smart enough to figure out how to peacefully make his desires come about?

And why isn't he smart enough to realise that by calling attention to himself THIS way will just get him squashed.

America is a pretty cool place. Pretty big things have been changed in pretty peaceful ways. It also has the resources and desire to prevent folks like this from causing [much] damage.

It's one thing to get your way by trying to break a toy, it's another thing entirely to redesign the environment so that the toy works for you. (and all that 'reed bending in the breeze' Kung Fu crap.)

archive.org and google cache to the rescue! (1)

wayne (1579) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932245)

While the message on raisethefist.com says that they need $300 to get their web site back, you can still view much of it by going to archive.org's version of raisethefist.com [archive.org] . Google cache was able to find their pipe bomb directions [google.com] web page.

Bombmaking 101 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932254)

1. Buy a PC
2. Install Windows, any version will do
3. Wait.
4. For a really unstable bomb, install many packages of Microsoft software.

Perhaps I'm the only one... (3, Insightful)

eclectric (528520) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932255)

but who can take seriously any person who still lives at home with mommy? He has no conception of what it means to be an adult, so I can't imagine how I'm supposed to take him seriously as a source of political information. I'm not saying people who live with their parents shouldn't have political leanings and causes, but I have trouble taking him seriously if doesn't even have to earn a living. (Which i guess gives him time to run this website, so maybe this is the way to go).

Then again, I'm pretty much in agreement with his comments about the current climate for those of thus dislike the actions of the United States. I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this as days pass.

digital does not make it right (2, Insightful)

xonos (218227) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932258)

If i was to walk around handing people pamphlets on how to create bombs and encourage everyone to kill everyone that disagrees with me, i would be arrested and rightfully so.

If i put up a web site that tells people how to make bombs and encourage everyone to kill everyone that disagrees with me, suddenly i am a poster boy for free speech?

confusing the matter (1)

raumdass (210351) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932264)

There seems to be more than one issue here, the first being a criminal act (i.e., defacing public websites) and the second being distributing information that has been criminalized. Is it in the interest of the FBI to prosecute people who deface websites? Of course. By defacing a companies website, you are violating thier right to free speech. Whether or not it's done in protest of a given organization or to prove that one is 37337 is not the concern of the law.

However, we have entered a period of American history where the government is taking to criminalizing information more and more. Information on making bombs? Not exactly a healthy pursuit. Information on making Meth? Ditto. However, as people become more and more accustomed to this kind of censorship and as we are asked to question less and less the people that are "protecting us from terrorists" we might just find ourselves with a constitution that has be rendered moot by the people who are allegedly protecting it.

Response to terrorism (2, Insightful)

jfengel (409917) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932274)

Posted on the raisethefist.com site:

"anyone actively disagreeing with policies of the U.S is now automatically rendered a 'terrorist' in the eyes of national security."

Perhaps that's so, but I'd venture to say that those disagreeing with the policies of the US and publishing information on how to make bombs are more likely to get noticed than those who simply disagree. They claim that "The sysop of this site does not endorse nor use any method of violence" but bomb-making and anti-government rhetoric on the same site are at the very least an implicit threat.

IANAL, so I can't speak to the legalities of it. But I know that if I were a FBI agent, I too would have wanted armor when I went in there.

Good riddance to bad rubbish (2)

Marx_Mrvelous (532372) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932276)

I might be a little jaded against the world, but sites like this are ludicrous. I'm glad that he got raided and I do hope they arrest him. He's obviously an ignorant child who wants attention, and possibly to hurt people. These are the kinds of people we do not want free in the United States.

spelling.... (1)

nullset (39850) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932291)

Good grief. what has happened to America? can our young not at least TRY to learn spelling?

"They sorounded the house..."
"They had more artillary then they..."
"..founder approached the door were 2 FBI..."
"...was currently being ran within...."
"..extensive government monitering"
"recieved over 100...."
"...continuesly monitered the site on a daily basis"
"Even government's from the UK..."

I'm not even going to comment on his grammar.

What an idiot. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2932300)

Okay, the guy admitted to hacking web sites, but says it's okay because it was the only way to get his message out. Yeah, right. I wonder how he'd feel if I hacked raisethefist.com to get my message out...
Free speech is being able to say what you want, not having the right to delete others' opinions.

Grammar? (1)

crankyspice (63953) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932304)

I'm sorry, but I can't take seriously a site that claims it was under fire for being "progressive" and for creating the stir they claim it was causing, when it's that badly written. (That is, if the current "explanation" page is indicative of the site as a whole.) I can understand being shaken up by what happened, but the word choice, etc., evident on the site - well, it's like running fingernails along a blackboard to anyone who's educated and has a command of the English (or, if you prefer, American) language. I always thought intelligence, or at least the ability to come off as a polished writer or orator, was essential for raising awareness. (Evidenced by Martin Luther King, Jr., others.) But I digress.

Who wants $300 to run rsync?! If it's bandwidth they're worried about, burn the site to CD-R and mail it; total cost, $5.

Irony (2)

lkaos (187507) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932307)

According to Austin, all of the site's files, which were dedicated to "the anti-corporate globalization movement,"

So while he's against corporate globalization, he has no problem with violating my privacy by display a doubleclick.com advertising banner on his site along with one of the stupid pop-down X10 windows...

I would be the first to run to this guy's defense for posting bomb-making techniques or anything of that nature but since he broke into computer systems I just simply can't condone his actions.

It's funnny though because he justifies breaking into a computer system (and thereby, violating someone's rights) because he's spreading a message against a government who are violating peoples rights.

I think his mommy forgot to tell him that two wrongs don't make a right...

Non violent means (2)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932309)

He probably would have gotten more traffic and support and less hassle if had spent all that time learning to create satirical flash movies of administration officials.

Play George Bush the fighter pilot trying to shoot Osama bin laden. There so many angles that would have done much better. So instead he thinks to do things like bombs and stuf like that.

Heck even stuff like WhiteHouse.ORG [whitehouse.org] is much more effective, even if in questionable taste. The opportunity is boundless if you have that talent. Which this kid probably did not.

Feel Sorry for the Guy?? (1)

Newt-dog (528340) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932315)

Does he *really* expect anyone, especially a jury to feel sorry for him when the boot of oppression is smashing his face? Heck no, I say let him take his anarchist thoughts to prison and see how many guys doing over a nickel of time feel. *I think he will get his butt kicked every freaking day* in prison!!* (just for being a wus)

He deserves what he has got so far and whatever may come in the future!

Newt-dog

A bit twisted. (2, Insightful)

halftrack (454203) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932318)

This site and this guy claims to support free speach. But - being somewhat of an anarchist - he forgets that free speach doesn't mean that everything everyone says about anything to anybody should be free and up for grabs. Cracking is never right, nor is breaking the law. But then again, he's an anarchist who will go to jail for his acts, not his thoughts/belives. like he claims he will.

Regarding the FBI raid, they must be high on something themself. 2 officers with handguns and a solid kick on the door would probably have been more appropriate.

Guns are not safe wepons (2, Insightful)

speculums (317287) | more than 12 years ago | (#2932323)

I remember something that David Dellinger (peace activist since WW II) said on the topic of weapons and activism. Essentially the army is way to well armed to confront in an armed fashion. Possesion of weapons will only give one a false sense of power and leave one ripe for arrest or extermination. According to what he said, the FBI would actually try to get activists interested in weapons in order to have something to come down on them on. Kinda like the big guy who can kick your ass as soon as he goads you into taking the first punch.

Its almost as if armed drug dealers run this country and try to control us with the things they do best. Anyone know if this years Afghan smack has made it to the US yet. I'll bet its gonna get real cheap soon.
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