Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

One Runtime To Bind Them All

Hemos posted more than 12 years ago | from the looking-at-CLR dept.

Microsoft 479

Sowbug writes "Here's some interesting Saturday night reading: a critical examination of many of the advertised benefits of .NET's CLR (Common Language Runtime) and the other technologies (MSIL, CLS, CTS) that make it possible. It's written from the perspective of a Java advocate, Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein. "

cancel ×

479 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

fp (-1, Offtopic)

rhuddusa (240650) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980380)

fp

Re:fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980388)

I almost had everything I could ever want. [goatse.cx] But instead got 2nd post.

Re:fp (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980415)

Hi. Don't link to the goatman when he's down. Thanks.

Re:fp (-1)

Serial Troller (556155) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980469)

Use this [rotten.com] instead!

FP? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980382)

Frog pants?

First / Plot (-1, Offtopic)

CSieber (548526) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980385)

First Post on /. my life's dream. :P

In seriousness though, is this another sinister plot by Microsoft or are there things Linux can glean from this?

Unbiased Articles? (4, Insightful)

Scrag (137843) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980389)

I have seen several articles on .net in the last week. All of them have been from Java advocates or MS haters. Could we please get some unbiased articles on .net? It is going to be a very important technology in the future, whether you like it or not. It doesn't help anyone to only look at one side of the picture.

Re:Unbiased Articles? (1)

The Asmodeus (18881) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980416)

I'm afraid you're not going to find too many people in the know who don't believe strongly one way or another.

There was the article the other day about Mono that was pro-.NET. btw.

Re:Unbiased Articles? (5, Interesting)

joto (134244) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980437)

I believe this article is actually quite unbiased, considering the source it came from. It admits that CLR is probably better than JVM for implementing other languages than C# or Java, but that it's far from the holy grail MS makes it sound like.

Then it goes on to say that surely the JVM can be extended if this proves to be a selling point for .NET (which is probably true, but it kind of makes you wonder why sun haven't already done it).

Re:Unbiased Articles? (4, Insightful)

RedWizzard (192002) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980538)

Then it goes on to say that surely the JVM can be extended if this proves to be a selling point for .NET (which is probably true, but it kind of makes you wonder why sun haven't already done it).
Probably because language neutrality is not really that big an advantage anyway. Java is a good enough language so that if you really need to use something else chances are you don't want the JVM anyway. The most common case where you might want to target something else at the JVM is scripting languages which appear to already be quite well supported.

Re:Unbiased Articles? (5, Insightful)

sheldon (2322) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980633)

Language neutrality is actually quite a substantial advantage. Perhaps not to you, or Java developers...

But to the horde of developers that will be migrating from Visual Studio 6.0 to Visual Studio.NET. I've met quite a few VB developers who are unwilling to give up their syntax yet would love to take advantage of .Net.

It is a very valuable marketing point, and it allows for a very easy transition/upgrade for many developers out there already targetting Windows.

Re:Unbiased Articles? (3, Interesting)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980462)

Try this article [eiffel.com] by Bertrand Meyer.

Thats *more* biased (4, Funny)

SimonK (7722) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980522)

Meyer brought into .NET from an early stage, as did several other academics with pet languages noone ever uses. He doesn't tackle the (huge) issues with actually implementing Eiffel on the CLR, probably because he's starting to lose touch with reality due to spending too much time being a pundit.

apply the razor please (2, Insightful)

Erris (531066) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980465)

I have seen several articles on .net in the last week. All of them have been from Java advocates or MS haters.

If the only thing the authors have in common is your readership, they might be right and you might be wrong.

Re:apply the razor please (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980575)

This isn't that hard people. Go download the .NET STANDARD, and go find the documents that Sun publishs about their technology.

Now look at the VM. Clearly Microsoft wins this one. The design goal of the JVM bytecode was obviously "design the easiest to implement VM that we can compile Java to."

As for the libraries; they both suck.

C# vs Java the language; C# is Java, just with most of the lessons painfully learned from Java applied, and a few of the more ridiculous design mistakes hidden slightly better (automatic boxing).

The question isn't "Is C#/.NET better than Java" because everyone who isn't a MS hater or a one-language-programmer J2EE hack can see the answer. The real question is: "Is the superiority of C#/.NET enough to offset the costs of moving to it from J2EE."

Re:Unbiased Articles? (0)

Floydian123 (317261) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980527)

I agree that some of them were Java advocates somewhat and MS haters somewhat, but I think they were mostly focusing on the smaller picture of certain .Net procedures being bad. .Net haters is more like it.

Also, I remember an article about how Java is too slow, and people agreed, so that's not exactly Java advocating.

How could it be unbiased? (3, Insightful)

sterno (16320) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980587)

Anybody who is qualified to write about the plusses and minusses of .Net is automatically biased. A microsoft rep or VB programmer will likely right about how wonderful it is. A C programmer will say how poor the performance of VM's are and how limited they are.

Personally I think that those strongly familiar with Java are probably the most qualified to write on the subject of .Net. The CLR is very clearly a similar concept to the Java Virtual Machine, and thus an awareness of the benefits and weaknesses of that model provide useful insights into the capabilities of Microsoft's product.

Really, the only unbiased source in this debate is an uninformed source, and that's really of no help. Take what the author has said, check his facts, and judge his opinions on your own. In the end, you'll probably find that, as it has always been, certain languages and architectures are well suited to certain tasks. You aren't going to write device drivers in C# and you probably aren't going to write a cross platform GUI application in assembler.

Re:How could it be unbiased? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980618)

A C programmer will say how poor the performance of VM's are and how limited they are.
And, most of the time, they would be wrong. Most of the time, a generational mark-and-compact garbage collector is a much more efficient way of managing memory than whatever you've hacked together. Why spend all your time worrying about memory management when the GC can do it better?

This is all very much like the move from assembly to C: all the asm hackers clung on to the old way of doing things, convinced that there would always be a special case where they could write better code than a compiler. Well, 99.99% of the time they're wrong. Optimising compilers are awesomely clever. For the tiny few times they were write, do some inlining - sheesh! Equally, for the tiny amount of times the GC isn't the best way of doing things, write some unmanaged (AKA "unsafe") code and do your own damn memory management.

Of course, as we all learnt the other day, a lot of people might not want you running your unsafe code on their box. They might force you to do it in managed code, and hang the performance benefit. This is where you learn that to your customers, security is more important than a performance hit - and the customer is right.

Re:Unbiased Articles? (2, Interesting)

coltrane99 (545982) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980597)

Seeing that C# is a 90% copy of java, it would be difficult to think of a more qualified base of people to review C# than java experts... This charge of 'bias' sure gets thrown around loosely these days. I seem to recall that an article had to contain untrue or highly misleading statements before it would be called 'biased'. Now, if you have a pre-existing point of view you are 'biased'. Very strange, how the language changes.

Re:Unbiased Articles? (2)

sheldon (2322) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980648)

I think what he means is that so far the "java experts" who have had their articles posted here have a particular anti-Microsoft bias.

Quoting Bill Joy or James Gosling isn't going to give you an unbiased view of .Net. I would think that's blatantly obvious to any intelligent person.

So it binds them all... (1, Redundant)

Cruciform (42896) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980390)

But how do you put it on your finger, does it hide your slashdot surfing from your department head? :)

Too bad (-1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980392)

Theres only 17,000 some combinations you cam make with three letters. Personally I can't get enough of CLS CTS (whatever the hell they are).

Topic beat to death already... (3, Interesting)

heavy (172353) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980394)

...under the this [slashdot.org] thread...

TROLLING IS AT AN ALL TIME LOW, HELP IMPROVE IT! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980399)

Trolling has gotten crappy, real crappy lately. Please help improve both the quantity and quality by becoming a troll, and also a better troll!

Slashdot Troll HOWTO

This is version 0.6 of a troll HOWTO, sort of a companion piece to jsm's excellent troll FAQ. As a draft, comments and criticism are always welcome, if not appreciated :)

Section 1 - Trolling techniques

There are techniques used by successful trolls to elicit the maximum amount of responses from unthinking /.ers. This section is dedicated to explaining how to use these in the course of your trolls. Remember though, a great troll can break any or all of these and still be successful...

  • Timing

    Because you're posting as an AC, your troll will generally be ignored in favour of posters using their accounts, and so getting in early is essential. A good guideline is to get into the first 20 posts, so that people reading the article will see the troll before it is swamped out. One way of increasing the speed with which you get your troll into play is to prepare them beforehand, and then quickly customise them for the current article. This is easier than it sounds since /. typically repeats stories with small variations and runs lots of similar stories.

    Note that this is why Jon Katz stories are pretty worthless as trolling material - by the time you've found the article and prepared a troll there's already 50+ posts on it, most of them flaming Jon Katz anyway :)

  • Exposure

    Once you've got your troll in, you need people to actually read it. You also want replies - /.ers are more likely to read your troll if it starts a large thread. You also want to remember that some people have set their comment thresholds to values higher than 0 - to get the attention of these you either want to get your post moderated up (see Style, below) or get a reply which gets moderated up to 4 or 5, in which case your troll becomes visible to all.

  • Accounts

    An alternative to the time-honoured tradition of AC trolling is that of creating a "troll" account. This gives you the advantage of posting at 1 rather than 0, and slashbots are more likely to take you seriously, especially if you at least sound reasonable. If you do this, try to avoid posting stuff where it is obvious you're a troll under the account - post it anoymously instead - some slightly more canny readers actually check your user info before they reply. Not many though :)

    The ultimate goal of the troll account is to secure the +1 bonus, which is currently received once you hit 26 points of Karma. To get there, employ the techniques of karma whoring that we see every day on /. and watch the karma roll in. And of course once you get the +1 bonus, the world is your oyster in terms of /. Posts made at a default of 2 hit even those people with the threshold of 2, are more likely to get moderated up even further if they are at all coherent, and people tend to lose their critical thinking abilities in the face of the +1 bonus. Milk it for all it's worth.

  • Layout

    To get people reading it a troll needs to be easily readable. Make sure you break it down into easily digestible paragraphs, use HTML tags where appropriate (but always make sure you close them properly) and use whitespace appropriately.

  • Size

    Generally a troll shouldn't be too short, otherwise it'll get lost in the crowd. A workable minimum is a couple of medium paragraphs. Conversely, it shouldn't be too long, or no-one will bother to read it. Keep it to a happy medium.

  • Spelling

    Whilst spelling is important if you want the troll to be taken "seriously", key spelling mistakes can draw out the spelling zealots, especially if you mis-spell the name of a venerated /. hero, like Linus Torveldes or Richard Strawlman (thanks dmg). Related to this is the use of the wrong word, explaining an acronym as being something it isn't or making a word into an acronym even when it isn't.

  • Subject

    The subject line needs to draw attention to your post without making it obvious that it is a troll. A simple statement of the main point of your argument can work here.

  • Style

    Once you realise that most moderators don't bother to read past the first paragraph or two, you can use this fact to craft trolls that can be moderated up as "Insightful" (note that I mean this in the /. sense rather than the real-world sense). Start off fairly reasonable, making statements that are /. friendly and not being too controversial. As the troll goes on, make it more and more controversial, building it up for the coup de grace in the final paragraph.

  • Linking

    As we all know, a post with links [olsentwins.com] is considered "informative" by the /. crowd. Moderators love it, and they rarely check the links, so be sure to include as many as possible. And make them wrong - a link to the Perl website [python.org] should instead point to the Python website [perl.org] instead, and vice versa. The other alternative to incorrect links is "useful" links to places like www.linux.org [linux.org] and www.microsoft.com [microsoft.com] i.e. places /.ers could never have found on their own :)

  • Feeding

    The ideal troll requires no feeding - it runs on its own, generating flamewars between clueless /.ers for your amusement. But often a troll requires some help and so you should consider feeding it. Feeding is best reserved for people making either completely clueless responses, people making responses with holes in, or those wonderful people who write a 2000-word point-by-point rebuttal of your troll.

  • Know your audience

    Always keep in mind the kind of things advocated on /. so that you can play on and against them. This is why anti-Linux, creationist, gun-loving, pro-corporation trolls work well - the vast majority of /.ers hold the opposite viewpoints. And if a few people agree with you, so much the better - it merely validates your viewpoint in the eyes of readers.

  • Arrogance

    Be arrogant. You, as a troll, know that you're right. No other explanation could exist. The wronger the "fact", the more assertively you should state it. Make it clear that you are better than everyone else - you know the truth and they are just too stupid to realise it. Use plenty of sarcasm, and use "quotes" to show it to people too dumb to realise.

  • Offensiveness

    Being offensive in your initial troll can be counter-productive - it causes moderators to mark you down as flamebait in general. But if you're feeding, then you can get away with calling /.ers all kinds of things. Make broad generalisations about /. readers - call them "long-haired Linux zealots", "socialist open-source bigots" or whatever. Stereotyping is encouraged - people always want to think that they're an individual, and will point this out to you given half a chance.

  • Indifference

    Great for articles with a political or social bent, this kind of troll expresses complete indifference to the topic at hand, wondering who on Earth cares about it. An alternative method is to say that the topic only concerns a certain group of people - criminals, idiots, hackers (always use this instead of crackers) or whatever group you want to offend.

  • Sympathy

    Appear to take the same stance as the people you're trying to troll - claim you're as much a fan of Linux as the next man, but... This way you can make all kinds of claims in the sure knowledge that you actually know what you're talking about. A great phrase to use here is "In my experience". Remember to act like all the things you're pointing out are unfortunate but true.

  • The common touch

    Always accuse /.ers of being elitist. This is an easy thing to do seeing as a lot of them are. Claim that is their grandmother couldn't use it, then they are just into it to feel better than Joe Sixpack rather than "doing it for the average user". This is always great for working into anti-Linux trolls - attack command-line tools and poorly designed desktops.

  • The 31337 touch

    The opposite of the above. Claim that technology or whatever is only for the elite of society and that any attempt to open it up for everyone is wrong, an attack on intellectualism and possibly even dangerous. If people were meant to understand these things then they would, and it's their fault if they're too stupid to learn.

  • Contradiction

    Never be afraid to contradict yourself, even in the space of a single sentence. The phrases "I am a top programmer who codes in VB" or "I am a supporter of open source who uses NT at work and 95 at home" will be sure to get a response from some weenie smugly pointing out the contradiction. Confuse the issue more by engaging in contradiction when you are feeding - this will confuse /.ers who will then make even more stupid replies, leaving them even more wide open for response.

    Clues

    If you're feeling brave, give the reader clues that this is an obvious troll. The classic example here is dmg's stock phrase "I am often accused of trolling (whatever that is)", but also feel free to use phrases like "I have not read the article, and I don't know much about XYZ but I feel I must comment". If anyone responds to a troll with these kinds of clues in it, feel free to bask in the glow of knee-jerk /. responses.

  • Denial

    ;If you're unlucky someone will accuse you of being a troll (surely not!) and try and ruin it for you. If you don't want it all to end there, then be sure to counter it by accusing them of being small-minded and petty, saying that it's easier for them to say it's a troll than to accept that people have different opinions. Be sure to say this in the subject line, especially if their subject was the infamous "YHBT. YHL. HAND."

  • Claiming credit

    Given that /. has its community of regular trolls (hi guys!), it's only polite to publish your troll on one of the so-called "hidden" forums for all to see and admire. This way, you get to bask in the praise of other trolls, they get to contribute to your's if they want to, and you get an easy way to find the troll later on when you want to check on its progress :)

    As for when to post it, that's a matter of opinion really. You can either post it straight away or leave it will after people start biting. Remember that the troll forum is also frequented by non-trolls, and sometimes you may get a self-declared "troll-buster" try and expose you. But remember, /.ers always post before thinking, and often it doesn't matter at all.

    There is no real current forum at the moment thanks to various spammers hitting the sids, but try trolltalk [slashdot.org] , the original troll sid started by 80md and osm way back in the day. Generally all postings are done there as an AC, with your name at the end of the post. Include a link to the troll somewhere in the text, which ideally will be directly to the post and its replies - click on the #XX link in the thread to get there.

  • Ending the troll

    Sometimes you just get bored with a troll, or people start posting genuinely thoughtful stuff in reply (it does happen). When this happens it might be time to own up to the troll with a helpful "YHBT. YHL. HAND." post. Sometimes people will carry on a discussion of the issue, and if you're really lucky (and it was a great troll) they will completely fail to believe you and carry on arguing. If that happens, pat yourself on the back for writing a great troll :)

  • The cheap $3 crack

    Finally, when all else fails and your troll gets moderated down to (-1, Troll) within ten seconds of you posting it, the only honourable thing to do is to accuse the moderators of smoking the cheap $3 crack (again) and give up :(

Section 2 - Types of troll

The Maniac

Probably the most popular kind of troll, the Maniac holds an opinion on something, and won't budge from that opinion no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented. If challenged, the Maniac will simply get more and more agitated and abusive, deriding his opponents as "idiots", "wrong-thinking", "dangerous" and "subversive". Generally the Maniac takes a position that opposes the prevalent /. beliefs, but a similar effect can be achieved by taking a typical /. viewpoint and pushing it to ridiculous extremes.

Maniacs can be crafted for practically every article /. posts, although some are more obvious targets than others. Civil liberty articles, especially on things like censorship, DMCA, UCITA that really get /.ers riled up, are usually extremely fruitful grounds for a well-crafted maniac. The other obvious type of article is anything which could possibly involve religion, especially evolution :)

Here are some fruitful avenues to explore:

  • The right-wing

    Always popular, the right-wing maniac (RWM) is a God-fearing, gun-toting, flag-waving American, and proud of it. They don't care about the rest of the world, unless it's to "prove" that America is better than everything else, and they cannot stand liberal whining over civil rights. They hate the moral decay of America and want it to revert into a nation of heterosexual, Christian whites like it was meant to be. Woe betide anyone that dares to suggest otherwise.

  • Religion

    There are two ways to approach this kind of maniac. The harder to pull off is the militant atheist, but this is quite common amongst /. posters and you would have to be very offensive to get this to work. Of course with religion trolls, the argument can go on for ever once it's started... The more common approach is the Christian fundamentalist. They are ignorant, intolerant and bigoted in the extreme. For them the Bible is the inerrant word of God revealed to man - it contains no flaws and no contradictions. Thus they are strict Creationists - mentions of evolution or cosmology will set them off on vitriolic rants. Flaming denunciations of anyone daring to contradict the "Word of God" are the way to go, and any kind of proof can always be ignored by appealing to "secular humanist brainwashing". And let's not forget, the USA is the greatest nation on Earth because it has the righteous power of Jesus Christ behind it.

  • Ideology

    Pick a philosophy, any philosophy. This troll is a troll with a cause - they have found some kind of ideological truth, and are out to expose every other philosophy as a sham. Whether it be libertarianism, objectivism, communism or capitalism, this troll will point out the obvious "flaws" in any other philosophies, whilst spouting dogma about their own. And the best thing is - you don't even need to know that much about what you're spouting - making doctrinaire mistakes will get both sides of the argument flaming you, adding to the fun.

  • Software

    This is an old favourite and crops up in many forms, covering the gamut from OS maniacs (Linux zealots, MS-apologists or embittered BSD fanatics), language maniacs (Pascal vs. C, C vs. C++, C++ vs. Java, Perl vs. Python, VB vs. everything), application maniacs(GIMP vs. Photoshop, Netscape vs. IE, vi vs. emacs) and also includes people who complain about how technology should only be for the 31337 hackers.

  • Guns

    Americans love their guns, and will always fight passionately for their Constitutionally guarenteed rights to bear arms and shoot people. Even the slightest hint of criticism of this will bring down the wrath of a thousand and one enraged gun-owners on you, so it's always a great point to work into a troll :)

The Expert

The Expert is someone who is "savvy" in their particular field, and is perfectly willing to give their opinion on any topic even vauguely related to their field. The Expert is most likely to be from a field which /.ers as a rule despise - the classic example is dumb marketing guy, but try consultants, lawyers, politicians, lobbyists, executives, journalists (just think Jon Katz). With this kind of troll sweeping statements with little content are the norm, along wire dire portents of future catastrophe and dark hints of "insider knowledge".

Some possible angles to exploit:

  • Industry knowledge

    The expert knows the computing industry from the inside - as a long-term pro, they can dispense knowledge knowing that they can "speak for the industry". Their smug self-satisfaction is bound to annoy, as is any suggestion that things aren't the way that /.ers would like it - saying "Linux requires the rock-solid guarantee of a trusted company like Microsoft" or "Apache cannot be trusted for mission-critical enterprise platforms" is guaranteed to get you denials explaining exactly why you're wrong, in excruciating detail.

  • Helpful hints

    With their tech-savvy (or law-savvy or whatever) experience, the expert is obviously the best person to point out what's wrong with things or to give out useful "factual" information. In fact this probably works best with lawyer trolls - for all that /.ers protest "IANAL", they certainly seem to think they could be, and any mistakes you make will send them rushing to prove themselves by correcting you.

Offtopic Trolls

Not really a "troll" in the strict Jargon File sense of the word, but they certainly should be included here :) This category includes parodies, offtopic weirdness any all kinds of amusing stuff. Not really my area of expertise, this stuff is mainly done by gnarphlager and opensourceman. Thanks to gnarphlager for this section.

Offtopic trolls, like any other, come in almost as many colours as an iMac, but generally not as cute. But then again, a good offtopic "troll" can affect more people than a repulsive little gumdrop on your desk, because you need to have someone SEE your desk before they can react. Simple? Moreso than even my overblown prose could indicate. Some basic examples:

  1. The serial troll

    Write a story. Keep expanding it. It doesn't matter what article you post it under, so long as it's high up. If you want people to recognize you, pick a couple themes or symbols, and carry them on throughout the story. Other alternatives include back linking or including the entire story, but adding more each time. Be funny if you want. Or if you don't feel like being funny, just be really weird. Someone will react.

  2. The random troll

    This has nothing to do with anything. Be it a stream of consciousness rant, or a description of the corner of your desk. Another favorite is a monologue, read as if spoken from any one given entity to another. The more outlandish, the better (a pair of socks talking to a mousepad, for example). If you really wanted to be artsy, work in an actual metaphor or legitimate meaning behind it, but it's not necessary.

  3. The vaguely related troll

    Start out with a comment about the article. Have a definite opinion of it. Then, after a little while, disintegrate into randomness. All roads eventually can eventually lead to cheese (yum), Natalie Portman, cannibalism, toasters, squirrels, futons, you name it. All it takes is a little bit of creativity. Oh, and feel free to use other trolls' motifs. Open source and all that ;-)

;General tips:

  • If it's funny for a fleeting moment, then it's worth posting.
  • Puns. Puns are only less vile than mimes, but it's hard to mime on /. So feel free/obligated to litter your offtopic and random bits with puns. Hurt the bastards. And if they're sick enough to laugh at them, then they'll eventually end up here ;-)
  • Obscure cultural references and injokes are always good. SOMEONE will get them eventually.
  • Several drafts of a serial or random post are common, but true elegance is being able to come up with something on the spot that still makes the top 40 posts (on a post-heavy article)

Section 3 - Useful trolling links

The following links contain background information useful for trolls needing quick quotes and "expert" opinions to include.

  1. General purpose links
  2. Religious links
  3. Political/economy links
  4. Crackpot science links
spiralx@spazmail.com [mailto] Copyright © 2000 James Skinner geovisit();

Re:TROLLING IS AT AN ALL TIME LOW, HELP IMPROVE IT (-1)

GaylordFucker (465080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980422)

my duty is to stop these 13 year old queers from thinking they're hot shit.. gfy.. hand

+5, Informative (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980426)

I love it when a troll gets mod points. Excellent work.

Thanks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980440)

Thank you. Maybe I should have logged in if I knew it was going to be modded up!

HAHAHA [slashdot.org] -Metrollica

Re:TROLLING IS AT AN ALL TIME LOW, HELP IMPROVE IT (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980503)

I try to troll well, but it almost never works. It would be helpful to post some links to successful trolls, so I can see what I am doing wrong. I feel like I am doing everything in the HOWTO but it just isnt happening for me.

"One Runtime To Bind Them All" (-1, Troll)

BoredGuy (445884) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980401)

What does this mean? I don't understand what it means.

Re:"One Runtime To Bind Them All" (2, Informative)

typedef (139123) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980438)

Its from The Lord of the Rings.
Actually, the correct quote would be "One Runtime to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them."

In the land of Redmond, where shadows lie...

Re:"One Runtime To Bind Them All" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980442)

It mens you'ver never seen Lord of the Rings or read the books.

Says the Ringmaster, with a variant of the same section from "The Lord of the Rings":
Three Rings for the RingSurf Kings on the Web,
Seven for the RingMasters in their halls of HTML,
Nine for Mortal Web Masters doomed to crash,
One for the Dark Lord Y!WebRing on his dark throne
In the Land of Yahoo where the Java Scripts lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness and them
In the Land of Yahoo where the Shadows lie.
He paused, and then said in a deep voice,
"This is the Master-Ring, the One Ring to rule them all.
This is the One Ring lost many years ago,
to the great weakening of its maker's power.
Now, he greatly desires to have it again,
- but he must NOT get it"

YHBT. YHL. HAND. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980508)


Idiot!

Re:YHBT. YHL. HAND. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980520)

hey hey right on

Re:"One Runtime To Bind Them All" (1)

Stalyn (662) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980584)

I refer to you this comment. [slashdot.org]

Slashdotted already? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980402)

Google has a cache [google.com] of the article. Please don't slashdot rhe main server!

One operating system (windows) to rule them all... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980403)

...and in the runtime bind them.

I DONE IT AGAIN! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980406)


More pr0n for everyone!

www.yut.ca/pron2 [www.yut.ca]

Someone give me a big thankyou. I see all kinds of horny shit in this shared directory. It'll spoof wget from mirroring it all, but it's worth every manual click. I got it from searching on yahoo!

What do I get...Ralph, Trollman, Trollhollio, Trolliculous, Klerck? What do any of you minor trolls think? Good Apache share? Get it all before they can insert an index.html!!!

Re:I DONE IT AGAIN! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980634)

i do believe that site has been slashdotted. heh... imagine that.

btw, for my money it's Fucky the Troll that brings on the grins.

thanks.

Java advocate doesn't like .NET!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980410)

FILM AT 11!!!!!!

Re:Java advocate doesn't like .NET!!! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980453)

Yeah, big surprise. It's like reading a MacWorld article about Intel processors, or Linux Magazine's review of Windows XP. You KNOW that they're going to be biased, so what's the point of reading it.

That's right, smartass, I DIDN'T read the article before posting this. You know what? I don't KEED to.

Well, m$ has to do something. (4, Interesting)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980417)

I'm personally a java fan myself, and I use JSPs for autopr0n.com. But as much as I would like to see that technology succeed, I don't really think there's anything 'wrong' with .net.

Java itself is not any kind of 'true' general standard, sun can do whatever they want to with it. There's no real reason that Microsoft should bind itself to sun's implementation. So .net is pretty much just a ripoff of java, there are some 'evolutionary' enhancements like XML serialization and that sort of thing.

This won't kill java anymore then java would have killed windows. Microsoft's CLR will provide a better way to write windows-only programs. I don't see why everyone needs to be up in arms about it.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (3)

danheskett (178529) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980446)

Microsoft's CLR will provide a better way to write windows-only programs. I don't see why everyone needs to be up in arms about it.

Except when you think about the Mono project, which will bring the CLR to Linux, and maybe Mac OS X.

It is very possible that .NET will suceed where Java failed - true cross platform, high-quality application development environment.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980459)

Java doesn't provide a true cross-platform, high quality application development environment?

Could have fooled me. I develop Java apps on a Linux machine that are deployed not only to other operating systems but to PDAs and other connection limited devices such as java capable cell phones. All with a true cross platform, high quality development environment that is very productive.

Geez, some people's kids.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (0, Offtopic)

danheskett (178529) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980464)

Java doesn't provide a true cross-platform, high quality application development environment? Could have fooled me. I develop Java apps on a Linux machine that are deployed not only to other operating systems but to PDAs and other connection limited devices such as java capable cell phones. All with a true cross platform, high quality development environment that is very productive. Geez, some people's kids.

Its not that Java doesnt provide it; they just havent made it successful. For example: whne was the last time you went to Best Buy and bought any program that was Java based?

Exactly. Never. Java is a neat little concept - that has some neat little benefits. But it has caught on for large-scale applications.

It is possible that .NET will succeed in that goal.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (3, Insightful)

abigor (540274) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980488)

"Java is a neat little concept - that has some neat little benefits. But it has caught on for large-scale applications."

Uh, have you ever heard of the "little concept" called J2EE? It's the app server/services technology that powers a big chunk of the large-scale e-commerce backend. I work with this stuff every day, and it has a lot more than "neat little benefits". Have you ever heard of IBM's Websphere? How about BEA's Weblogic? J2EE is currently the ONLY credible enterprise-level app server standard around.

Get your head out of your ass. Little Windows applications at your computer super-store aren't what this stuff is about. It's the server side where the big money, and the truly large-scale systems, are. And on the server, Java rules.

Correct (4, Informative)

SimonK (7722) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980512)

You were dead on when you said:

Exactly. Never. Java is a neat little concept - that has some neat little benefits. But it has caught on for large-scale applications.

Though I suspect that was a typo. Java has caught on for large-scale applications. The reason you can't buy Java apps in Best Buy is because they don't sell large scale applications. They sell boxed programs for PCs and Macs that are almost exclusively written in C++. Java's principle use is for the server side of various business systems.

This is the field MS are aiming for with .NET, too. Indeed, that seems to be its principle purpose: to displace Java from back-end server systems. Microsoft already owns the desktop, and Java is no particular threat there for reasons that don't need to be rehearsed again. For the device market, they have other plans.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (2)

ndfa (71139) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980635)

Well not from BestBuy but across the street (in RedWood City) from it is Oracle which seems to have quiet a few tools and products in JAVA.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980481)

It is very possible that .NET will suceed where Java failed - true cross platform, high-quality application development environment.

It is very possible that people of the future will chuckle a little bit at the scolding old textbooks that used phrases like "discipline of portability". When you think about programs for HTML like demoronizer [google.com] , actually the future is reasonably bright, even given the modus operandi of Microsoft with new technologies, "new technologies", and, well, "NT".

class Standard : inherits AllPublicDomain {
private:
//Everything goes here.
}

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (1)

DavittJPotter (160113) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980507)

So I'm confused here... are you *against* .NET then, or are you applauding the fact that we'll get a "true cross platform, high-quality application development environment"?

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980539)

The MONO project will bring the .net Virtual Machine to Linux and Mac OS X, but, what about all the .net APIs ? These are not in the ECMA standards. The VM is pretty useless to run business Applications without huge APIs.

Will you end up needing to code a different version of your Sharp# application? One for NT/XP, and one for MONO because they have different proprietary APIs for GUI development or XML processing ?

It seems to fulfill the cross-platform development promise even less than Sun's VM with its 'standardized' Java classes and APIs.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980555)

Read the fucking standard before publically demonstrating your stupidity.

There are some non-standard MS libraries, but you don't have to use them, or Mono could just clone them from their interfaces.

This is far better than the situation with Java, where no part of the system is standard.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (2)

Malcontent (40834) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980582)

" It is very possible that .NET will suceed where Java failed - true cross platform, high-quality application development environment."

Well there are two things wrong with this sentence.
1) What makes you think Java failed in being a true cross platform high quality application development environment? What is your definition of fail in the first place? Are you saying there are no applications written in java that are cross platform? This is a nonsensical thing to say considering the millions of java devlopers in the world and the tens of thousands of businesses using it every day in massive scaled applications. You must have some really whacked definition of the word "fail".

2) GNU will create mono. Mono will run C#. It will not be 100% compatible with the MS implementation. This is because MS holds patents on most of the .NET infrastructure. Also the some of the most important parts of the .NET are not submitted to any standards body and are not published. Mono will have to do without them.

Mono will not bring cross platfrom capabilities to .NET.

Re:Well, m$ has to do something. (4, Insightful)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980514)

Java itself is not any kind of 'true' general standard, sun can do whatever they want to with it.

While Sun can do anything it wants with Java, it is just as much a standard as .NET, complete with specifications and third party implementations.

Now, what makes you think that Microsoft won't do exactly what it wants with .NET? I mean we already have interoperability problems between SOAP implementations. What is going to stop Microsoft from issuing .NET+ or .NET 2002 or whatever? Complete with extensions to the .NET standard (perhaps some even documented) that mean the code that is written for .NET on Windows doesn't run well or at all on .NET for other platforms?

And of course all those fancy development tools (Visual .NET) will require and make full use of these extensions.

Articles at Microsoft.com (3, Informative)

Metrollica (552191) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980419)

There are a few articles at Microsoft on this topic here [microsoft.com] and here. [microsoft.com]

Alan Thicke. DEAD. (-1)

Alan_Thicke (553655) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980429)

I just heard the sad news on CBC radio. Comedy actor/writer Alan Thicke was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never liked his work, you can appreciate what he did for 80's television. Truly a Canadian icon.
He will be missed :(



Show me That Smile (The Growing Pains Theme Song):

Show me that smile again.
Ooh show me that smile.
Don't waste another minute on your crying.
We're nowhere near the end.
We're nowhere near.
The best is ready to begin.

As long as we got each other [slashdot.org]
We got the world
Sitting right in our hands.
Baby rain or shine;
All the time.
We got each other
Sharing the laughter and love.

so let me get this straight (-1)

GaylordFucker (465080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980436)

you little fucknut prick are trying to tell me that Alan Thicke has died 108 times? wow.. how bout you stop sucking on that penis.. and go play with your power ranger dolls..

gfy
hand

a good saturday night read? (-1)

GaylordFucker (465080) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980430)

i don't know about you.. but i'm planning on getting shit-faced tonight and fucking the first thing i see :-)

Pure Genius (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980439)

The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers.

Bill Gates, The Road Ahead, page 265

Slop, I tell you! Slop! (-1)

Serial Troller (556155) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980460)

Aaaauuggghhh!!!! [rotten.com]

Another fucking americunt os (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980468)

Why can't we be free from this dumbass wankee world domination?

maybe a bit offtopic... (1)

InsaneCreator (209742) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980470)

Will it be possible to decompile CLR/MSIL like it is possible to decompile JAVA applets? Applets you find online don't really contain any top-secret code, but being able to decompile something like a complete commercial applicatin is something different...

Re:maybe a bit offtopic... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980498)

Well, there are plenty of complete commercial applications in Java, so there are tools out there to stop you decompiling them. Here [ibm.com] . Several MSIL decompilers have already been written (use google), but there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to obfuscate your MSIL. Also, you can "pre-JIT", ie compile, MSIL to machine code if you're desperate to keep it secret.

My god, (-1, Flamebait)

labratuk (204918) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980475)

Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein

Wow!

CLR is the way to go (0)

kentsin (225902) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980490)

I think that CLR is the way to go.

Observ! even through there exist many languague environment and school, there is only few types of physical machines that run them!!!!

Moreover, that programs and systems were built by people, and they were very adaptave.

All the problem will be sovled when the time is right. But CLR gives what we need: FREE!

Re:CLR is the way to go (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980495)

I would like to point out that even GPL do not give us that freedom.

punch cards? (0, Offtopic)

hex1848 (182881) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980491)

i wonder if the CLR can handle punch cards [slashdot.org] ?

What I don't get.... (2)

rseuhs (322520) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980499)

... why would anybody want to use multiple languages for the same project anyway? If you start a project you are pretty happy if you(r people) can deal with one language (or as few as possible) there is simply no need for this. The way I see it, it's a nice-to-have feature, but no killer-feature. Platform-independence, on the other hand, *IS* a killer feature because you can be sure that your customers can use it and can also switch platforms. Java is not only implemented, but also tested and proven on many, many platforms. It's established in many ways - .NET just doesn't offer enough for people to switch over to it. It may be the successor of Visual Basic (= the users that use anything from MS anyway), but IMO not much more. I think .NET is a solution without a problem.

Re:What I don't get.... (3, Insightful)

HamNRye (20218) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980534)

Why use different languages??

This is a simple one. I write perl, you write C#. You write a routine in C#, and a front-end in C#. I don't like your front-end so I rewrite mine in perl, and it all works.

However, I have a biggol' feeling that this will wind up as Java's platform independance. Half-Working.

.NET is there so that they can lump everything into it, say they Innovated it at the .NET inception date, and look like there is cohesive plan.

So far, NET involves a way to log into Hotmail, a planned Java rewrite, and..., and ..., um..., and...

But you can't do that ... (2)

SimonK (7722) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980566)

... for a single project of any size. Its very important that everyone can read and modify everyone else's code (not that they DO, just that they CAN). Using libraries written in another language: maybe. Using many languages on one project: insane.

There are also two errors in the rest of your post: Java's platform independence works just fine, and C# and the CLR have been released, they're not "planned".

Re:What I don't get.... (2)

Malcontent (40834) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980592)

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Imagine trying to maintain an application where 50 developers used 20 languages. Yikes! Any program manager that allowed that to happen ought to be shot.

Besides you will not be able use perl anyways. It will be "managed" perl. Which to you will mean a mutant bastard stepchild of perl much like VB.NET is a mutant bastard stepchild of VB.

Might as well use C#

Re:What I don't get.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980604)

Because component vendors make different language choices from me. I like C#, they write in VB, or Managed C++ (or C#, of course) or whatever. All components are first-class from any language.

You don't get it (1)

spasmatik (550523) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980606)

the point is not use multi languages on one project but across many different projects. i know where i work there are many different programming groups who use different languages. they write a library in vb that we, a C# team, can use no problem.

Sort of offtopic (2)

Error27 (100234) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980505)

But the thing that I hate about java is that there are so many different JVMs (or runtimes if you want to call it that).

Having many different JVMs would be great if they weren't all incompatible in some way.

Java is meant to be a "write once, run anywhere" but the sad fact is if I switch JVM then I can't even get some java programs to run on my own computer let alone on someone elses.

The easiest and best way to fix this would be for Sun to release their code under a free lisence and everyone switch to that. The next best way to fix this would be to make every JVM compatible, which might happen on some imaginary world but not is never going to happen in the real world. The third solution is to stop pretending that the JVMs are compatible and start distributing programs with the JVM they use. That's probably the only solution that works.

I hope that we don't end up having the same kind of crap with c# on Linux. In this sense I would really prefer one Runtime to bind them.

Re:Sort of offtopic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980551)

Do you have Linux too? There are many linux distributions. All of them are incompatible in some way.

If you want one answer for everything in your environment, Microsoft is your kind of company. If you choose any non-Microsoft component in a MS architecture, you're going to have to work much harder to get the job done.

If you choose all Microsoft, you'll probably just end up paying more in the long term...

Cross-Platform Java CLR (4, Interesting)

storem (117912) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980511)

There are, actually, many successful "common language runtimes", with names like Pentium, SPARC and others. Mainstream CPUs are equally fitted to very different languages as they only do the most fundamental, low-level operations, so they cannot be biased towards particular languages.

Q: So why do we have the need for a next bytecode layer on top of Pentium & SPARC?
A: To be cross platform! This is correct in the case of Java and the JVM. The intention is compile once, run everywhere.

The problem we now have however is that Microsoft sees cross platform differently in my opinion. Cross-platform is merely compatibility between their CE, Win9x and NT product lines. How big will the push be within one year by Microsoft to keep the developed truly cross platform?

Isn't that the question we must ask ourselves?

Re:Cross-Platform Java CLR (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980588)

Damn, you even quoted it and you STILL DON'T GET IT.

JVM bytecode is NOT crossplatform any more than x86 machine code is. If I were to write a JIT'ing VM for x86 with the win32 libraries attached (DEC did it for alpha, its called FX!32) that would make win32/x86 exactly as "cross platform" as Java.

Java (TM) is a proprietary platform of Sun Microsystems (a public, for profit company). So there are emulators (and a JIT is just an optimization for emulation; I can't believe how many 'programmers' don't know that) -- that just means it runs equally poorly everywhere.

Re:Cross-Platform Java CLR (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980612)

Finally someone has said the right one.

Crossplatform in M$ opinion is M$Win on every hardware platform not C# on every system platform. If system is not M$Win ... well ... "FUUUUUCK IIIT" (Those imortal words from "From dusk till dawn" sound even nicer in movie). I personally use Linux gcc and fpc, and I expect nothing from Mono. M$ will succed to fuck up everything, there is no question. Having C# on linux, why bother. As soon as it would become dangerous to M$ they would just change standard and be in front again and app would be again M$ proprietary.

Ximian should help extend gcc and not follow M$.

rectum crawler timothy owes me an apology (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980529)

I submitted this 5 days ago...
Richard N Stawlman would not approve!

You can use many languages with the JVM (4, Informative)

Moderation abuser (184013) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980536)

Um, why do people think that you can't use different languages with the JVM?

Hmm?

Are you all silly billies?

There's dozens of the bastards... Christ, the've even got Cobol and Ada. I wasn't even trying hard and, sorry tolk...

http://grunge.cs.tu-berlin.de/~tolk/vmlanguages. ht ml

--

Have you fixed the moderation system then? (-1)

Karma collector (184064) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980601)

Looks like I can't moderate myself up anymore.

Hmm, better mousetrap...

Yes, Moderation abuser, they are silly billies (-1)

Karma collector (184064) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980617)

Also known as numpties.

C#, how do you say that again? (0, Offtopic)

Erris (531066) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980548)

C#, "See Pound." I can see the bloat, pushed by a fat marketing department, from here.

The obvious solution (2, Funny)

lkaos (187507) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980549)

If it is desired to have a multi-language runtime to run on any platform, then the answer is simply:

Use an x86 emulator for all non-x86 platforms.

Let's be frank, Windows doesn't run on many(any?) non-x86 platforms so this makes a bit of sense. Instead of trying to design OOP intrinsically into the run-time, why not just agree on a common ABI.

Protection mechanisms can be handled through the run-time library. There really is not need for a CLR that is truly capable of running multiple languages.

That is not what MS is after though. MS is trying to compete with Java. There is no need for a CLR. This article really hits on a key issue.

Different hardware, different languages, and different ABI's all exist because they fit different niches. There can never be a system that handles everything as efficently.

Re:The obvious solution (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980572)

There are versions of NT 4.0 (and even a RC1 beta of 2000) that run on alpha processors.

What I would really like ... (1)

chfleming (556136) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980563)

... and what I never hear is not a common run time but only a common interface.

Like a standard library for every compiled program to link to so LISP programs could used C functions and C++ programs could use Perl functions.

I understand the disimilarity of the languages, their datatypes, and the way they set up code, but couldn't some limited surjective manner of passing stuff between languages without having to worry about what compiler you are using be like the greatest thing since K&R.

Re:What I would really like ... (0)

KieranElby (315360) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980585)

It exists. It's called CORBA [corba.org] .

Re:What I would really like ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980598)

This "common interface" exists in .Net, and it
s one of the problems that this article talks about: you cannot have a common interface between every language without throwing away some language features. For example, C++ has templates; C# doesn't. So, I'm a C++ hacker, and the best way to write my stuff is to write a bunch of templates. I try to pass that to my friend the C# programmer - and he can't use it. Either that, or I have to write code to a "lowest common denominator" interface, which will hack me off.

Also, the "common interface", like you say, will be based on a standard library. That means I can't use my favourite library (SortedList? Rubbish! My data gets added to the list in an order which I can exploit for better efficiency, so either I reimplement the class I was using which was coded by some super God who can quote Knuth backwards in his sleep or I sacrifice performance)

Re:What I would really like ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980611)

That's what the common type system in the CLR is all about. And then the .NET Framework class libraries (and 3rd party frameworks) are available to everyone - C#, VB, Perl, COBOL, whatever.

Don't know what the subject should be (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980564)

Quote from the article:
There are, actually, many successful "common language runtimes", with names like Pentium, SPARC and others. Mainstream CPUs are equally fitted to very different languages as they only do the most fundamental, low-level operations, so they cannot be biased towards particular languages. There aren¦t many different ways to perform a conditional branch. However, there are radically different ways to support methods and functions, or most constructs found in high-level languages. The consequence is that every language needs different compilers and runtimes to implement their features, and different libraries to support their vision of software development.


Is he kidding here? As long as you are using any mainstream CPU, imperative languages are favored. All those CPU's are based on von Neumann model. Any program written in functional or logical languages will be penalized when run on such CPU's. So, at this moment there isn't a CPU architecture that will treat all programming paradigms equally, and neither a CLR/VM.

MS is at least trying to build a platform that will intergrate different languages. This is intention of CLR.

SUN is not trying to do this and JVM wasn't invented for this purpose. Sure JVM can be extended to support other languages, so can my plastic cup holder.

Don't be a legacy loser (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980568)

Think Java. Write new applications in Java. Rewrite legacy apps with Java. Don't upgrade or downgrade. Sidegrade instead to a Java desktop device... I don't understand why anybody would be programming in anything other than Java.

Re:Don't be a legacy loser (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980642)

er, let me get this straight... are you advocating Java, or are you just fond of that word?

The thing the author forgets....... (1)

MrBandersnatch (544818) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980590)

is that .Net's component languages are primarily BUSINESS languages for putting together BUSINESS applications...and for their primary purpose they are going to have HUGE benefits. VB programmers WILL be able to deal with C# and vice-versa, the languages are so simplified that their should be fewer bugs and productivity should be increased. Does ANYONE REALLY like multiple inheritance or use it frequently? (yes I know!!)

I pray that universities/ colleges etc DON'T teach C# as their language of choice though - it is totally inappropriate for many projects and that is part of the skill that we acquire as developers - right tool right job. A broad view is very important.

Closed standard? Open Standard? I pick door #2 (5, Insightful)

Jack William Bell (84469) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980591)

This point has been made before, but it bears repeating. C# [www.ecma.ch] and the CLI (Common Language Infrastructure) [www.ecma.ch] are ECMA [www.ecma.ch] standards! As such Microsoft no longer truly controls them. There is nothing to keep Microsoft from 'embracing and extending' these standards if they do not like the direction they are going. Just as they can with any open standard. Just as you can with any open standard.

MS tried the embrace and extend strategy with Java, remember? And they ran into a huge roadblock. Namely Java is not an open standard. Despite what Sun says in the press releases the standard is not open in the same sense. Sun controls it and Sun can shut down any attempt to create a non-conforming version.

From some points of view this is a good thing. But, although I appreciate any argument that starts with 'We need to avoid incompatible versions.' I also know that Sun has not proven any better than Microsoft as a steward when it comes to keeping the commons clean and competitive. To put it simply; I just don't trust them. And I think there is an equally persuasive argument that competing products evolve faster while products without competition tend towards stagnation. This eco-system analogy appeals to me.

From this point of view let us return to 'embrace and extend'. In a closed standard a single organization controls all progress for that standard, with limited participation from the outside. In an open standard the process is, at least titually, open to outside input and you are more likely to see third-party enhancements absorbed into the standard itself. Furthermore no corporation is going to sue you if you create your own implementation of the standard. Even if it is tweaked to work best on a competing platform. (Can we all say 'Mono'?)

So, the way I look at it, C# and the CLI will drive Sun to improve Java. Third-party implementors will drive the C# and CLI specifications faster than MS would alone. In the end we get better technology. I like better technology. So I win either way.

Besides, I like the design of the CLI a lot. And C# looks like an arguably better language than Java.

Finally, many arguments in the 'One Runtime' article seem a bit weak to me. For example, "... Design-by-Contract, a fundamental strength of Eiffel that .NET does not support." Since when does 'Design By Contract' have to be baked into the underlying runtime to make it work? What is keeping you from implementing any kind of runtime you want on top of the CLS?

Jack William Bell, who likes the idea of coding with mix-n-match programming languages.

Re:Closed standard? Open Standard? I pick door #2 (2)

JordanH (75307) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980628)

  • There is nothing to keep Microsoft from 'embracing and extending' these standards if they do not like the direction they are going. Just as they can with any open standard. Just as you can with any open standard.

Yes, but from a practical standpoint, if Microsoft decides to take the products in a direction away from the Open Standard version, then the Open Standard version will immediately become irrelevant.

Which, come to think of it, was exactly what they intended to do with Java. Make the Sun version irrelevant.

Very nice article. (5, Interesting)

DaveWood (101146) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980600)

What a pleasure to see such a balanced, well-written and thorough analysis of the situation. I didn't see any great evidence of Java "advocacy" - this person appears extremely well-versed in langauge design and familiar with a good variety of languages, as well as more than willing to point out Java's flaws.

The author is saying pretty much what I figured, which is that .NET is much better than what MS has been doing in the past, however it's still just a sugared-up clone of J2EE, whose "cross-langauge" benefits are ultimately dubious and primarily a marketing invention.

I would also make the case that "unsafe" mode/pointer arithmetic is a flaw, but that's not the matter at hand. The high point of the article were these two paragraphs in the conclusion:

"Playing with the .NET SDK, the cross-language support looks impressive, but the illusion holds true only until realizing that all languages in the mix are virtually identical. Microsoft has actually invented the concept of skinnable language: changing a language's most superficial aspects, and claiming the result to be a new language. There is only One True Language that is C#, and "skins" offered by Microsoft and third parties. Just like in GUIs, these skins will alter the system's look and feel, add a few features, but never compete with a fully new toolkit."

For those quick to make an ignorant response, he's not saying more radical structural departures are impossible, though many are - but more often that diverging "client languages" suffer in performance and, in many cases, have been "embraced and extended" in order to become compatible. He goes on:

"There are, actually, many successful "common language runtimes", with names like Pentium, SPARC and others. Mainstream CPUs are equally fitted to very different languages as they only do the most fundamental, low-level operations, so they cannot be biased towards particular languages. There aren't many different ways to perform a conditional branch. However, there are radically different ways to support methods and functions, or most constructs found in high-level languages. The consequence is that every language needs different compilers and runtimes to implement their features, and different libraries to support their vision of software development."

Let's Play Devil's Advocate (2, Interesting)

Eric Damron (553630) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980620)

I'm no Microsoft fan but .NET is not as bad as the author makes it out to be.
He lists numerous limitations of the CLR/CTS/CLS. Lets remember that .NET is in its infancy. How great was Java when it first came out?

If Microsoft fails to deliver, we'll all have a great laugh. However, if Microsoft does deliver and MONO succeeds, we'll have an explostion of desperately needed applications that will run on Linux.

The worst thing that I can say about .NET is that it is controlled by the Evil Empire and the worst thing I can say about MONO is the name makes me think of a horrible illness that takes a long time to get over.

I like this quote... (3, Insightful)

sheldon (2322) | more than 12 years ago | (#2980624)

"...but unfortunately still bound to Microsoft's usual way of doing (and marketing) things: proprietary technology presented as the apex of openness, and a strongly biased system presented as language-neutral"

Sounds like Sun selling Java. Proprietary openness, and strongly biased systems presented as platform-neutral. :-)

Nag nag nag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#2980630)

I guess the reason why all these Java advocates are complaining so much about the CLR and C# etc. is that it's so similar to JVM/Java, and actually quite useful for any programmer that has to write stuff for the windows platform. Remember: Sun == Microsoft wannabe.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?