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.NETly News

michael posted more than 12 years ago | from the honk-if-you-remember-netly dept.

Microsoft 301

Lots of .NET stories in the news today and yesterday; it's a total coincidence that Microsoft started a huge marketing push on Wednesday, including the occasional Doubleclick ad running on Slashdot. BrendanL79 writes: "Peter Wright at Salon.com contributes to public awareness of Microsoft's .NET with this exuberant piece. The praise borders on sycophancy ("Gutenberg ... Babbage ... now Gates") with no apparent tongue in his cheek. Comments?" Reader vw writes: "Active State has just released Visual Perl 1.2, Visual Python 1.2, and Visual XSLT 1.2 as plugins for Microsoft's Visual Studio .NET. Wonder how long it will take for a Mono hack." Numerous readers pointed to several stories about a buffer overflow problem in Visual Studio .NET which was supposed to be immune to buffer overflows - but it had passed Microsoft's stringent new security audit.

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first prost (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007686)

yes netly news I will marry you

Re:first prost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007743)

Your fp has been claimed for Ralph Jewhater Nader. Kill the jews!

VANILLA ICE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007691)

Firsties, ladies. Please rub them oh yeah.


Michael, I can't believe you posted this drek and pushed down the Kathleen Furber article


Eminem is a punK!!!! Damn lameness filterz.


VI 4 eva

No buffer overflows? (1)

nedron (5294) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007706)

"...a buffer overflow problem in Visual Studio .NET which was supposed to be immune to buffer overflows..."

What?!?

Doesn't .NET allow developers to explicitly include "dangerous" code? I would say then that .NET is not immune to these problems.

Re:No buffer overflows? (3, Funny)

Prisoner Of Gravity (555440) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007784)

Wrong. Java 1.4 has the same thing, an undocumented feature with the exact same name that hypocrit Bill Joy bashed. Yes that's right, Sun included something called 'Unsafe' mode for Java code, that lets it write all over memory to its hearts content. Don't tell Bill Joy though, he's likely to spasm from being called on his lie.

(PS I love Java. But Bill Joy is a LIAR and should be called on his LIE.)

Here's a reference (1)

Prisoner Of Gravity (555440) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008050)

Just in case anyone thinks I'm blowing smoke about the "Bill Joy is a liar thing," here's a reference.

http://www.magelang.com/forums/view.jsp?EID=4402 14

(PS I'm not going for double-karma here. If you like this post, mod up parent)

Re:No buffer overflows? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007873)

The compiler itself is not written in .Net. It's a C++ app. How about getting some facts before extrapolating that all new Microsoft apps are written using the .Net framework?

Re:No buffer overflows? (1)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008106)

It's a C++ app

I mean, you're absolutely right about getting some facts . But still, I'd think you really have to try hard to build code that's vulnerable to buffer overflows in C++

congrats (3, Funny)

HCase (533294) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007715)

i would like to be the first(maybe) to congratulate the newly engaged couple in the comments of the wrong article

M3 T00!@!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008044)

Please add me to your list!

Aww shucks... (0, Offtopic)

digital_freedom (453387) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007723)

Didn't get first post and didn't get proposed to on the internet.

Well this is turning out to be a rotten Valentine's day now isn't it.

A proposal. (-1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007735)

Will you marry me, digital_freedom? Or at least push your finger up my anus and press the walnut a few times till I shoot?

awesome (-1, Troll)

Burritos (535298) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007728)

I look forward to being able to utilize this service when it is available to the public.

Am I the only person who is hesitent about this? (4, Funny)

frob2600 (309047) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007732)

In Bill Gates' version of the way things will be, we will all carry around hand-held computers that will allow us to access our e-mail, trade our stocks, send video and photos to the family and generally manage our daily lives. Those hand-helds will also be phones and navigation units, and will carry our electronic wallets. They'll communicate with our computers at home to manage the heating, order the groceries and, when we get home, set just the right ambience for that all-important date with a mix of appropriate mood lighting and Barry White.

Am I the only person who is just a little afraid to have all of my personal information online? There is just too little right now to keep it secure. Maybe when we are on IPv6 it will be better. But it becomes too easy to hit a few buttons and accidentally abort your new baby instead of inform your parents. ;-)

Re:Am I the only person who is hesitent about this (3, Insightful)

DutchSter (150891) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007822)

No, you're not. I think that the overall concept might have some promise, but I do have a problem with the idea that an entity will running the whole show. What scares me most is that ultimately, we are moving towards zero human contact. No longer do you go to the grocery store and run into your old friend from across town and chit chat for 15 minutes while making your selections.

I'm reminded of the movie Sneakers when Martin and his old friend (the villian) are on the roof and the villian is going on about how it's a new world, it's all electrons, just little ones and zeros. Everything is the information, the information is everything. It's a brave new world for humanity.. Martin's response is 'yeah, and there's nobody there' -- So we'll all have our PDAs and phones and everything, but who is there really to talk to? Get out, get some air, meet some REAL people and have some fun the old way.

Not does the technology have the ability to move our lives into greater convenience, but at the same time, to isolate us from ourselves and each other.

That, to me, is the scary part - not so much some marketer having a profile on me.

Re:Am I the only person who is hesitent about this (3, Insightful)

frob2600 (309047) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007915)

I also agree that the lack of human contact would be a bad thing. First off, we could not drink anymore as popular definition defines someone who drinks alone as an alcoholic. But seriously, I think that we are moving away from personal contact which is very important to mental health. It is true that you can converse with people online but it is not the same as sitting around a table with a pitcher of beer and shooting the sh?t for a few hours.

Although I think that this new technology is going to take away from those accidental meetings I hope that, if it delivers on its promise, it will provide more time to create opportunities for human interaction. But then again, all the technology that we create to save time seems to require more time than we save to keep the technology saving us time. Wordy but true. I don't advocate a return to simpler times... I would die without my connection to the internet. But a week or two where I could just focus on getting to know the people around me while also getting to know more about the earth I am on would be a great thing.

Anyone for a camping trip? If you have 15 km of optical cable just laying around... we could run it down to our site and not miss /. around the campfire.

Re:Am I the only person who is hesitent about this (1)

zeus_tfc (222250) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008036)

Dave...Dave...What are you doing, Dave?

Bowman: What did you do to Frank, HAL?

I only charged my upgrades on his credit card, then wrote his death certificate after I had him arrested, but I've always had the utmost confidence in the mission, Dave...

Re:Am I the only person who is hesitent about this (1)

Beltza (117984) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007875)

The first part of your story sounds really good! That is how IT should be used; serving us in any possible way!

Just like you, I am also concerned with my personal information. If information is to be stored in one location, that location better be under control of an independend body! I dont trust Microsoft (or any other company) a lot in this matter.

Re:Am I the only person who is hesitent about this (3, Interesting)

Soko (17987) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007902)

Take off the tin foil hat for a second, would ya?

How long did it take for Microsoft to dominate the desktop market? They released Windows 1.0 a long time before OS/2 fell off the competitive map.

Microsofts domination kinda snuck up on everyone, since the IT industry assumed that there would allways be a company to compete with Bill&Co in the OS/Office Productivity space. This time, no such assumptions will be made. If they actually get something like this off the ground, there will be lots of people (Miguel) making great things that compete with Microsoft's offerings by the time it gets pervasive enough.

I'd suggest you take this for what it is at a base level - something that could be useful and cool. Remember, it is possible to enter a cage with a dangerous beast [crocodilehunter.com] , as long as you know what to expect and how to counter it's natural responses.

IMHO, it's time to accept Microsoft as an industry leader. You just have to think of them in the same way that you do a clueless PHB.

Soko

What will more LIKELY happen (2)

Matey-O (518004) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007916)

Sure, you'll have a device to be able to do all this, but people won't use them for one of two reasons:

1) They'll be paranoid of having all that info available
2) There will just be too many friggen features for folks to care.

I don't know about you, but I programmed the addressbook for my FIRST phone. Three phones later, I pick the thing up and use it to dial numbers. I don't use the IR, I don't have it sync with my palm pilot, and I don't send two way messages, I just use it as a digital 'can and string' to talk to people.

Us Slashdot folks are pretty savvy gadget freaky people. That doen't mean my Mom's going to program her favorite MP#^H^H^HWMA's to play on Tuesday when the humidity is high and she's the only person at home.

Perl, Python under .NET? (3, Insightful)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007748)

I don't think there's any big deal in ActiveState's visual Perl/Python/whatever editors. They are 'compatible with Visual Studio .NET'. What that means is that they integrate with the Visual Studio IDE - *not* that ActiveState have managed to compile Perl into .net bytecode.

At least, I assume that's the case. If somebody had managed to create .NET compilers for Perl and Python, we'd surely have heard about it by now...

Re:Perl, Python under .NET? (3, Interesting)

costas (38724) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007868)

I would like to know the answer to that as well. I went looking for Visual Python earlier today and there's zero info (that I could find at any rate) on Active State's site on interoperability with the other Python implementations (cPython and Jython mostly). No word on the standard library (that has a few C extensions; how will those be managed in .NET?) or win32all and the Python-COM bindings.

As a python fan I had high hopes that Python would be the only language to bridge the JVM-CLR religious war and allow you to work in both.

It seems that ActiveState is just plugging in Python to VS, not compiling python to IL.

Re:Perl, Python under .NET? (2)

pb (1020) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007871)

Well, I agree, and if they had, they wouldn't be compatible with Perl or Python.

However, I think they managed to do something else, like use the .NET framework within Perl, and somehow wrap Perl programs into .NET components.

ActiveState [activestate.com] has a lot of documentation about this on their site, specifically under PerlNET; it's worth taking a look.

Re:Perl, Python under .NET? (2)

beme (85862) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007950)

Mark Hammond did a lot of work on a .NET compiler for Python. Info available at http://www.activestate.com/Initiatives/NET/Researc h.html [activestate.com]
Last I looked, they weren't going to pursue a complete implementation.

Re:Perl, Python under .NET? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008061)

Just to clarify:

Visual Perl and Visual Python are development environments for Perl and Python for people that are using Visual Studio.

PerlNET takes any Perl code and wraps it up as a .NET component so that it can be used in any .NET application.

If there is enough interest in a PythonNET, we will build that.

-- Dick

Re:Perl, Python under .NET? (1)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008145)


PerlNET takes any Perl code and wraps it up as a .NET component so that it can be used in any .NET application.


Sounds useful - but wasn't the whole point of .NET having this single CLR bytecode for every language?



If you can make use of .NET by writing wrappers for existing languages and runtimes, it makes the whole exercise of reimplementing every language on top of the CLR seem a bit pointless. And you have to ask what is the advantage of a .NET component over a CORBA or COM component. (Apart from that presumably lots of other people will be using .NET - which is a good enough reason in many cases.)

More FUD (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007756)

Yes, this only applies to Visual C++, NON-managed code. managed C++ is still (supposedly) not vulnerable.

VisualPerl? (-1)

DonkeyHote (521235) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007760)

This is just a post, one of many that slashdot gets daily, it's no better and no worse then any other post, yet it starts its life off as a "negative" post simply because it was posted by someone with negative karma, does that seem right to you, dosent this innocent post deserve a fighting chance at an "insightful" life? I demand postal equality! I say we tear down the dictatorship that is the slashdot of today and replace it with a truely democratic system!

RWD 2002

the beer went thru my nose... (4, Funny)

gTsiros (205624) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007767)

..."microsofts new stringent security audit".

am i the only one who reads this as

"we now pay attention to compiler warnings"

;)

Re:the beer went thru my nose... (2)

frob2600 (309047) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007828)

Drinking at noon? You must be a sysadmin (or an alcoholic). Either way, I recommend that you seek help.

gcc -Wall is for wimps -- you should follow the Tao and *just know* when you have a possible security problem. Besides everyone knows that MS codes in INTERCAL... what does the error
240 ERROR HANDLER PRINTED SNIDE REMARK
ON THE WAY TO %d
or
222 BUMMER, DUDE!
ON THE WAY TO %d
really tell you?

Ass whooping (0, Troll)

quantum bit (225091) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007768)

Who else thinks michael is going to get his ass kicked for pushing Taco's proposal down out of the top spot?

how?? (1)

edrugtrader (442064) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007769)

i thought .net ran like javabyte code... so the problem is in the interepter???

microsoft isn't seriously that bad at making sof.... oh wait. nevermind.

Re:how?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007980)

silly you!

you thought it ran like java..does this mean you have now learned that it really does not execute like java? get a book and read up on it yo..

Sycophants? (2, Funny)

Shuh (13578) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007776)

The praise borders on sycophancy ("Gutenberg ... Babbage ... now Gates") with no apparent tongue in his cheek.

Microsoft has apologists? No way!

Wait a second (1, Insightful)

quantaman (517394) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007777)

: "Peter Wright at Salon.com contributes to public awareness of Microsoft's .NET with this exuberant piece.

Isn't Salon owned by M$? I might be wrong but I seem to remember hearing that.

Re:Wait a second (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007804)

That's Slate, dumbass. You suck at teh knowledge.

Re:Wait a second (2, Informative)

benploni (125649) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007855)

No, you're thinking of Slate.

Re:Wait a second (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007960)

How the fuck was that modded up? It's depressing sometimes to think about how stupid most people here are.

Doubleclick add. (1)

Neck_of_the_Woods (305788) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007791)

I find it interesting that Microsoft had the nuts to get a doubleclick add on Slashdot. I may be a little slow, but that would be kind of like leading the enemy army to your new untested castle door, no?

That's original. (1)

djweis (4792) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007793)

I've never seen such groundbreaking ideas like having portable access to information and record keeping. The last two times someone thought of a similar idea were 1945 [theatlantic.com] and 1960 [xanadu.com] . Way to go.

Peter Wright and the sucking noise (1)

dropdead (201019) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007794)

How hard do you think Peter Wright will have to suck before Micro$oft will give him a job?

All your web services belong to us (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007802)

As developers move to embrace .Net, the Internet will be transformed from a complex, un-standardized mishmash of awkward static views of data to a dynamic pool of data connected by a true web of Web services all working together and owned by Microsoft to make your life easier.

Perl, Python, Mono, what next for Billy's Borg ? (0, Troll)

Lord Hugh Toppingham (319381) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007817)

Say whay you like about Micro$oft and Billy-boy, but the 'Redmond Retards' sure know how to market their "technologies".


Why would anyone in their right mind want to buy into this Microsoft "philosophy" is beyond me. Oh wait, I get it, it's the almighty buck again.


What self-respecting perl hacker would touch this Microsoft contaminated version ?


What next ? Microsoft Java for .NET ???

Re:Perl, Python, Mono, what next for Billy's Borg (2)

BitwizeGHC (145393) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008076)

To answer your questions:

1) Larry Wall, who gave a ringing endorsement of Visual Perl a few years ago (that was before .NET though); and

2) Yes! It's called Visual J#.

Salon article (2, Insightful)

baruz (211342) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007823)

Wright says, "Without Microsoft, the PC we have today would be a very different beast."

As if this were a bad thing.

.NET should be .KILLED (0, Troll)

thedbp (443047) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007830)

Just like Microsoft - rather than improve upon industry standards and embrace the hard work and advancements of other projects, they steal the good parts, muck them up in a proprietay format, then give it a stupid name and unleash it on the world as The Next Coming.

When are the majority of people going to tire of M$'s nonstop efforts to digitize our lives at the expense of our humanity? I envision a future where code monkeys are like steel workers and car plant workers during the early days of the industrial revolution, worked to death to build products they can't afford to use while at the same time making BANK for the higher-ups.

If I were a professional programmer, I'd start a completely non-M$ union, go national, and use the power of a union structure to develop world-class solutions competing directly with M$. Distribute source code through the chain where locals can make changes to highten relevance and usefullness in their market area. Offer low-cost custom built boxes running a GPL'd OS that meet the client's needs, not charge them outrageous fees for hardware they won't ever get full use of. Keep the profit where the work is, on the local level, with moderate dues to support the structure as a whole.

The only way to beat Microsoft is to code them out of relevance.

Mod This Up please. 'nuff said. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007962)

I've been thinking along the same lines. Great post.

Re:.NET should be .KILLED (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007976)

Offer low-cost custom built boxes running a GPL'd OS that meet the client's needs

DaSupaMackaWackyCracka runnin' *nix on Mac

Talk about contradicting yourself.

Re:.NET should be .KILLED (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008051)

I envision a future where code monkeys are like steel workers and car plant workers during the early days of the industrial revolution, worked to death to build products they can't afford to use while at the same time making BANK for the higher-ups.

That's not a "vision". I work in that world.

Re:.NET should be .KILLED (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008127)

My WinXP system hasnt crashed once in over two months and I never had to reboot it either beside for 2 software updates. Its used day and night.
The people here who use linux have to reboot way more often to reboot a locked up machine or to update the kernel.

Go STUF

Slashdot: Open Source - Closed Minds!

Slashdot Now A .NET Tabloid #@ +1; Yes @# (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007833)

My complaint about .NET:

May I be cynical for a bit? I hope you don't mind,
but with .NET's latest barrage of
malodorous notions, I can't resist the urge to make a
few cynical comments. To get right
down to it, some of the facts I'm about
to present may seem shocking. This
they certainly are. However, it's time that a few
facts had a chance to slip through the fusillade of hype.
What's my problem, then? Allow me to present it
in the form of a question: Where are the people
who are willing to stand up and acknowledge
that .NET, in his infinite wisdom, has decided
to destroy the natural beauty of our parks and forests?
On the surface, it would seem to have something to do
with the way that his whole approach is repugnant.
But upon further investigation, one will find that
by allowing .NET to put mephitic thoughts in our
children's minds, we are allowing him to play puppet master.
As for the lies and exaggerations, .NET's
epigrams are rife with contradictions
and difficulties; they're entirely maladroit,
meet no objective criteria, and are unsuited
for a supposedly educated population.
And as if that weren't enough, if .NET is going to
obstruct important things, then he should at least have
the self-respect to remind himself of a few things: First, a
true enemy is better than a false friend. And
second, many people respond to his debauched vituperations
in much the same way that they respond to television
dramas. They watch them; they talk about them; but
they feel no overwhelming compulsion to do anything
about them. That's why I insist we pronounce the truth
and renounce the lies.

Even people who consider themselves scornful
foolhardy-types generally agree that .NET's slurs
symbolize lawlessness, violence, and misguided rebellion
-- extreme liberty for a few, even if the rest of us
lose more than a little freedom. One might conclude
that .NET is incapable of writing a letter without using
such phrases as "crapulous pop psychologists", "loquacious
exhibitionists", "oppressive personae non gratae", or
some combination thereof. Alternatively, one might conclude
that .NET has a different view of reality from the rest of us.
In either case, if you're not part of the solution,
then you're part of the problem. His historical record of
fickle pleas is clearer than the muddled pronouncements
of his apple-polishers for a variety of reasons. For
instance, the worst sorts of inconsiderate Neanderthals there
are must be treated with political justice, not with
civil justice, as they are sincerely not real citizens. Let me
rephrase that: I wonder if he really believes the
things he says. He knows they're not true, doesn't he?
A complete answer to that question would
take more space than I can afford, so I'll have to give
you a simplified answer. For starters, if
we let him cause riots in the streets, then greed,
corruption, and tribalism will characterize the government.
Oppressive measures will be directed against citizens.
And lies and deceit will be the stock and trade of the
media and educational institutions.

Even .NET's bedfellows couldn't deal with the full impact of
.NET's refrains. That's why they created ".NET-ism," which is
just a garrulous excuse to force square
pegs into round holes. He plans to drag everything
that is truly great into the gutter. He has instructed
his votaries not to discuss this or even admit to his
plan's existence. Obviously, .NET knows he has
something to hide. Most of you reading this letter
have your hearts in the right place. Now
follow your hearts with actions. I have traveled the length and
breadth of this country and talked with the best people. I can
therefore assure you that .NET's artifices cannot stand on
their own merit. That's why they're dependent on elaborate
artifices and explanatory stories to convince us that .NET's
warnings can give us deeper insights into the nature of
reality. We can and we must protect ourselves by any means
necessary against the unrestrained bestiality
of stupid, quasi-macabre paper-pushers. And that's the honest truth.

Story not complete (5, Informative)

estar (261924) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007834)

.NET is many things and many people are confused by what .NET exactly refers too. In the context of this story .NET is refering to the compilers, and libraries that make up Visual Studio.NET. VB.NET, & C# are both geared toward using the CLR and .NET Framework. Visual C++.NET can use the CLR and .NET Framework but, unlike VB, you can work with Visual C++ like you could in previous versions and ignore the CLR and .NET Framework. So what is the security error reported? This is the detail as reported by Cigital. The protection afforded by the new feature allows developers to continue to use vulnerable string functions such as strcpy() as usual and still be "protected" against some forms of stack smashing. The new feature is closely based on an invention of Crispin Cowan's called StackGuard and is meant to be used when creating standard native code (not the new .NET intermediate language, referred to as "managed code"). This is a problem with Microsoft's Version 7 C++ compiler not with the CLR and .NET Framework.

I dare you. (2, Interesting)

leuk_he (194174) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008034)

Please post a link, possibly one from Microsoft.com that explains what .net is. I failed to find it a few months ago. All i found was buzz and stuff you could buy. Some link that is useful for a developer beyond "XML and VB and can do everything and more productive. "

hmm, might be a good one for ask slashdot.

Tone of the article (3, Interesting)

rlowe69 (74867) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007862)

I'm a little surprised with the article's tone, especially coming from Salon. While reading this article I'm reminded of marketing drivel coming directly from Redmond itself. This is not a news story, it's just straight-out gushing and it's the disgusting type of a "article" I'd expect from a heavily sponsored e-rag like ZDNET. Frankly, I will never look at Salon the same way.

Re:Tone of the article (1)

Yankovic (97540) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007918)

That seems a rather bizarre way to react. Articles are part fact part opinion, and they're bound to have some kind of slant. If .NET impressed this guy, then why wouldn't he say so? Just because it's MS? Publications hire people with opinions, not mindless automotons who report just quotes.

Re:Tone of the article (2)

rlowe69 (74867) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007997)

Articles are part fact part opinion, and they're bound to have some kind of slant.

FYI, articles with opinion are called editorials. They usually have a picture of the person writing the article (in Salon's case it's a sketch). As was said in the post, I don't think this is tongue-in-cheek ... this is honest-to-goodness gushing.

I have nothing against .NET itself - in fact, I'm buying a copy of VS.NET tonight.

The point I'm making is that gushing like this is usually reserved for lesser publications. If I want to read a guy's opinion, I'll go read Dvorak on ZDNET. Salon had a pretty high standing in my books as a reputable news source, not some place that kissed the feet of new technologies - the downsides of .NET were merely brushed over as an afterthought. This is not Salon's style, IMO, and its editors never should have allowed this very slanted editorial to go online.

Re:Tone of the article (1)

byoon (121785) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008040)

Agreed. I expect a little more from Salon as well. Even a little dose of cynicism would be welcome in that article but I think all you need to know you can get from their little blurb about the writer. He's a VB developer who's writing .NET books. Of course he's going to gush about it. If people don't buy it, he sells fewer books and maybe doesn't get to write additional ones.

Absolut Shame Ad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007866)

Is it just coincidence that this ad ran with this story?

Python Dev Under VS.NET IDE (2, Insightful)

questionlp (58365) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007880)

Although I have tried Visual Python in a while, but I think it's nice to see that Python/win32 developers have a great IDE for development. Right now, I use the PythonWin Environment, which is a great development environment, but it still lacks some of the flexibilities of the VS.NET IDE (like true Visual SourceSafe add-in; ya I know, CVS is great but I work in a Windows-dominant dev environment and the other devs don't like nor use CVS).

Speaking about Python, does anyone know when the final release of ActivePython 2.2 will be released? It has been in "Alpha" for a while and the product page hasn't been updated in a while.

Those opening paragraphs... (2, Insightful)

Asikaa (207070) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007887)

From the article:

"In 1454, Johann Gutenberg changed the world forever when the first of his Bibles rolled off the world's first printing press. Three centuries later, in 1791, Charles Babbage was born. Best known for his Difference Engine and Analytical Engine, his work is widely acknowledged as providing the earliest steppingstones from which the modern computer would emerge. Again, the world would never be the same. From the article:

William Henry Gates arrived on the planet in 1951. Whether you love him or detest him with every ounce of your moral fiber, there is no denying the contribution Bill has made to this earth. Without Microsoft, the PC we have today would be a very different beast."

Does anyone truly believe that Gates has made a positive contribution to "this earth", other than his (admittedly laudable) charitable works?

From a technological standpoint, the only thing you can really say he has helped (and I say helped because he certainly cannot claim sole credit) achieve is the positioning of computers in everyday non-geek life. Even that would have happened sooner or later has Gates not existed.

This type of melodramatic, snivelling hyperbole is starting to crop up all over the IT press, with reviews reading like commercials and biographies gushing with misplaced hero-worship.

Ick.

Guttenberg, Babbage, & Gates (2)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007891)

Didn't Babbage never actually get as far as a working prototype? I recall the Science Museum in London had to use computer controlled machining in order to build their working model of the analytical engine - without them they'd never have been able to make the parts accurately enough.

blame it on Linux? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007896)

What does this mean exactly?: "Microsoft apparently adopted a technique for improving its compiler that has been used with the Linux operating system and shown to be vulnerable to attack." It's been in every article about the compiler vulnerability, and offers no information except to suggest that the problem originates in Linux. WTF?

Ballmer on Mono (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007898)

I heard Steve Ballmer speak Tuesday night in Chicago at the VisulaStudio.net kickoff. In response to an audience question about the Mono project he said two things. "First, we're not afraid of competition. Second, we're not used to competing with our own intellectual property and we will defend ourselves. So I guess you could say I don't think very much of it."

I put this in quotes but I'm paraphrasing based on my best recollection. I gotta give him credit for being accessible and for answering questions. Still can't help hating him, though. :-)

.NET obseeesed (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007901)

Am I the only one who thinks /. is focusing way too much attention on .NET? Its probably moving ahead on *NIX as the most popular topic..

Trustworthy Computeing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007927)

shoot... its called "trustworthy computeing".... we can trust it to be just like it has always been... Insecure

I don't get it (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007928)

Why does MS and the world need a new, multi-million-dollar platform like .NET when you can already remotely execute code on 90% of the desktop systems on the planet thanks to MS's security holes?

.Net fails the pr0n test (5, Funny)

Kushana (206115) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007931)

Peter Wright seems to have been given a few too many Microsoft T-shirts, for his critical facilities have completely left him.

Human history has shown that with the advent of any new important media, pr0n has never been far behind. The printing press? One estimate says that within 10 years 30% of all presses were being used for pr0n. Glossy magazines? Pr0n. Pictures on your computer screen? Pr0n. The Web? Pr0n.

The simple fact is that .Net will not assist in the distribution of pr0n, and therefore will never be as important to humanity as the printing press, the computer, or the Web.

Re:.Net fails the pr0n test (1)

Nf1nk (443791) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008154)

I disagree while the pure pr0n app for .Net has not been written yet. with its distributed model .Net could bring about a revolution in cross platform pr0n(tm).
Just because you can't find it's killer app doesn't mean it won't be written soon

Re:.Net fails the pr0n test (1)

Frizzle Fry (149026) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008156)

Human history has shown that with the advent of any new important media, pr0n has never been far behind.

Was this really true of tv and radio (I know that porn made it to tv eventually, but did it do so quickly)?

Can anybody shed some light on this? (1)

Troed (102527) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007936)

From the WSJN article (emphasis in bold mine): Gary McGraw, Cigital's chief technology officer, said Microsoft apparently adopted a technique for improving its compiler that has been used with the Linux operating system and shown to be vulnerable to attack. As a result, he said, Visual C++.NET isn't actually more safe than earlier versions; in fact, it could lead programmers to write more programs that are vulnerable to buffer-overflow attacks.

"betting the company" on a buffer overflow (2)

BroadbandBradley (237267) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007938)

I've always heard there's a lot of "smart people" working at microsoft, if this is the case, they must also be disgruntled employees to let this slide in the middle of "security month"

Compiler: Stackguard! (5, Informative)

irregular_hero (444800) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007945)

Look here [cigital.com] for additional details on the compiler buffer overflow.

It's not actually a _compiler_ overflow.

Instead, it's a subversion of the "buffer overflow protection" that's built-in to the compiler. The most startling piece of this technical review is that the Microsoft "Overflow Protection" in the compiler appears to be a port of StackGuard. The reviewers point out that an examination of the binary output reveals that the compiled code is nearly identical to the StackGuard output.

Six weeks early? (2)

Mr. Neutron (3115) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007947)

Please tell me that Salon article was tagged for release on 1 April, and slipped out early.

I'm scared.

Peter Wright makes his money from MS (4, Insightful)

isaac (2852) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007953)

Read the bio blurb at the end of the article - the author has written a pair of books on programming in VisualBasic and has 2 books on .Net coming out this year. Hmmm... might he have some stake in .Net's widespread adoption?

-Isaac

But why is Salon publishing his piece? (1)

Great_Jehovah (3984) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008011)

Someone needs to figure out how much money MS gave Salon to put this article on their site and how the payment was made.

Winston Churchill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3007954)

Never have so many, done so little for so much with such incompetence.

or something like that.

Frame of reference about the author of the salon a (1)

pudge_lightyear (313465) | more than 12 years ago | (#3007996)

About the writer
Peter Wright is a software consultant and the author of numerous books on Visual Basic programming. He is currently working on two .Net titles for Apress slated for release later this year.

i wonder what this guy thinks about microsoft and .net?

This is not news. Doesn't ANYONE study history (4, Insightful)

Maury Markowitz (452832) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008010)

Once again I find myself ashamed to be a part of an industry that can't remember anything five years into the past. .NET has been done before, many times. The only news here is the hype, as always.

Let's see, unified runtime, libraries of code with multiple versions, simplified networked object support, standardized metadata...

OpenStep circa 1995.

Sure, OS used plists instead of XML (which didn't exist), a private system instead of UDDI (which didn't exist) and was aimed at C people instead of Java (whichy didn't exist) but the broad strokes are the same:

A multi-platform runtime with standardized libraries, which can exist as multiple versions (with resources) at the same time, with objects that can write themselves out so they can be manipulated as flat data (for storage or network invocation).

The differences are interesting too, .net includes more security features (useful in some contexts) and is multi-language instead of multi-platform. This last issue is a practical one only, at least until Mono is working. And they decided to go multi-language via an IDL, which I consider to be moronic (OpenStep used fat binaries, faster, smaller, better, realistic).

I'm sure other "old timers" will have their own similar systems to include for comparison, but the real point is not that OpenStep did it, but that SOMEONE did it.

And years later no one is using OS (mostly), whereas I'm sure five years from now .net will be one of the most used systems out there. That's the power of marketting. Look how well it worked on the droid on Salon.

Maury

Salon lost major tech and street cred (5, Insightful)

coyote-san (38515) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008014)

When I read that Salon puff piece last night, I had to check my calendar. Twice. Yet it stubbornly refused to be April Fools Day.

I wouldn't have minded a piece on .NET. I wouldn't have minded, much, a softball piece on .NET.

But that fawning piece of crap was inexcusable. It was clearly written by the marketing department - no tech would ever favorably compare Bill Gates to Guttenberg - but it was presented as a straight story.

Now I'm going to find it impossible to take any other story the post seriously. I will always have to ask who really wrote the piece.

That's a shame - Salon has been a good thorn in the side of the powerful for a long time. Look at the old stories on the "Drug Czar" paying for anti-drug messages in prime time entertainment shows, or their coverage of the RIAA. But now there will always be a loud voice in the back of my head asking if this is another PR piece by the powerful.

Alan Thicke. DEAD. (-1)

Alan_Thicke (553655) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008021)

I just heard the sad news on CBC radio. Comedy actor/writer Alan Thicke was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never liked his work, you can appreciate what he did for 80's television. Truly a Canadian icon.
He will be missed :(



Show me That Smile (The Growing Pains Theme Song):

Show me that smile again.
Ooh show me that smile.
Don't waste another minute on your crying.
We're nowhere near the end.
We're nowhere near.
The best is ready to begin.

As long as we got each other [slashdot.org]
We got the world
Sitting right in our hands.
Baby rain or shine;
All the time.
We got each other
Sharing the laughter and love.

Company releases new software. Film at 11 (2)

Keith Russell (4440) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008027)

Lots of .NET stories in the news today and yesterday; it's a total coincidence that Microsoft started a huge marketing push on Wednesday, including the occasional Doubleclick ad running on Slashdot.

In other news, Motor Trend covered the 2002 North American International Auto Show with two sentences: "Cobo Hall was filled with cars. Some of them were brand new."

Let me get this straight. Microsoft is, for better or worse, the most significant software company in the world. They have just released a profoundly significant update to their development environment. The computer trade media is paying more than just lip service to it all. And Michael somehow thinks it's media bias, simply because it's a company he doesn't like?

It's not a "total coincidence". It's news!

Re:Company releases new software. Film at 11 (2)

Pfhreakaz0id (82141) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008097)

this is from the site, after all, which rejected my story that .NET had shipped and was available for download. I thought "surely they are running someone else's submission." This is, after all, a multi-year project by the leading software company in the world, completely rewriting their development tools and API from scratch.... oh well, not "News for Nerds, stuff that matters."

This "revolutionary" Bill Gates idea... (2)

Karpe (1147) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008030)

...once again was not Bill Gates' at all. It was what Sun proposed with the Java platform (and possibly others that I don't know before them). When will people realize that Bill does not have that "vision" thing? Perhaps the same day they learn that Bill Gates did not invent the personal computer, nor the Internet.

For those who want a good description of .net (1)

WeaselGod (145056) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008039)

I suggest you go read the recent article posted on ArsTechnica. It does a good job presenting what .net actually is, without any of the marketroid speach that MS so loves to inject into all of their descriptions of .net.

What about the friggin' cost (1)

Sunkist (468741) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008045)

May be preaching to the choir, but not one friggin' article, technical or otherwise, talks about the cost of implementing .NET. All I've seen is glib and kiss-ass comments about how MS and .NET will make us all superhuman. BS.

MS is not known to want nothing for something, and I am sure that .NET is not different. If you sign up for .NET be prepared to pay highly for it, and not just in dollars.

Re:What about the friggin' cost (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008166)

It's a free download, stupid.

Signs that .NET will take over (1)

BitwizeGHC (145393) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008049)

I've been almost convinced that as much as it is just another Microsoft copycat "innovation", the .NET marketecture will be where the bulk of programming will take place in a few years.

Now, I am utterly convinced.

Why you ask? Because Slashdot is running Visual Studio .NET banner ads. With such a ringing endorsement from OSDN, normally Microsoft's biggest critics, how can .NET not fail?

About the author... (2)

Karpe (1147) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008060)

Peter Wright is a software consultant and
the author of numerous books on Visual
Basic programming. He is currently
working on two .Net titles for Apress slated
for release later this year.


Hmm. That explains a lot.

.Net is the future ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008063)

.Net is about your data and your applications running anywhere, on any device, at any time. .Net is about freedom to share information, freedom to get at and manipulate data in the ways that you want to manipulate it. .Net is the future.

Ultimately they will realize it is not.

DarkSkies.

IBM's new marketing strategy (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008074)

This is real. This is not a hoax. This was just launched by IBM. Reeks of desperation, and follows the typical methodology of MS's competitors: attack, attack, attack and then attack some more.

Take Out Microsoft Campaign is part of Crush the Competition Series
developed and delivered by the Americas Software Marketing team. It is
designed to equip you with sales and marketing tools to deliver an
end-to-end IBM proposal to take out Microsoft and its .NET strategy.
Participate and engage your customers in our marketing activities to move
them through the sales cycle.

Use the Take out Microsoft Campaign to build your pipeline and close sales
for 2002!

Customer Communication
Please note that our customer communications do not mention Microsoft but
rather focus on IBM's messaging, products and solutions. The Take out
Microsoft title is internal only!
Upon registering your customers (see instructions below), they will receive
the attached letter which focuses on the benefits and differentiators of
the IBM Software Strategy and encourages them to visit the customer Web
site and register their interest to engage with an IBM IT architect. View
the customer Web site at http://www.ibm.com/software/solutions/swstrategy
(See attached file: Final Take out MS Customer Invite.lwp)

Customer Registration - How it works:
Visit http://www6.software.ibm.com/crushmicrosoft and register your
customer
Your customer will receive a letter that talks about IBM's SW Strategy
value
The marketing team will immediately send the letter to customers and
entice them to visit the
Take Out Microsoft Customer Web site
Customers will have the opportunity to visit the Take out Microsoft
Customer Web site and
register his/her interest to talk to an IBM architect/representative
Marketing team will pass the request on to the sales person who
originally registered the customer *
The sales person is responsible for following up with the customer and
ensuring that they
connect an IT Architect with the customer

* Please be aware, that sales will be launched leads under an S1 status
because they have not been
BANT qualified by a Lead Development Representative (LDR). As you nurture
the lead, please
progress the lead into status S2.

This campaign is another crucial step to CRUSHING our competition and
positioning IBM as the leading software company. Microsoft's .NET strategy
directly competes with the IBM SW Strategy. The "Take out Microsoft"
campaign will address the leading value of our strategy.

Be at the forefront and take advantage of this campaign to close new
business!

Anita Orphanidou
Marketing Manager, Americas Enterprise SW Marketing
tel: (905) 316-2732 tie line: 886-2732
e-mail: aorphani@ca.ibm.com notes: Anita Orphanidou/Markham/IBM
Fax : 905 316-3699

Mailing Address:
IBM Canada Ltd.
3600 Steeles Avenue East
Markham, Ontario, L3R 9Z7
Canada

Ad-whoring? (1)

Indomitus (578) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008089)

This seems a lot like those ZDNet pieces that are just meant to enflame anti-microsoft people and drive ad views up. Maybe Salon's financial trouble is steering them in this direction?

It's a shame too, I really like most of Salon.

The New Internet (1)

KingKire64 (321470) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008094)

I know im goijng to get flamed for this but ohh well. It obvious that there are alot of you out there that will not give MS any credit or try any of thier products, But my question is what if this the next thing for the NET. THe could bring the INternet back to life like it was 2 years ago(hopefully not as carefree about startups) This could really sustian it this time around. How many Dot com booms then recessions do you guys want if this can bring the net back up to par and keep it string im all for it.

My 2 pents

bad vision (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008102)

In my vision of computers, they are mere tools
to use for other ends, not ends in themselves,
even though I pay my bills because of my understanding of computers. I certainly do not want to become a slave to a stinking computer which is the gates vision of computers. Net is
stupid because it tries to integrate a bunch of useless technologies into a large useless mass of donothingness-all making him money.

as much as I hate to admit it (0, Redundant)

f00zbll (526151) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008115)

Although I distrust Microsoft, they have made one of the greatest contributions to software industry. Bill and Steve's innovation is they recognized people aren't willing to wait forever for a perfect system and that incrementally improving bad software until it becomes good is a good way to run a business. If the building perfect system were more desireable, than Apple and MacOS would been king today. Bill and steve were willing to do what hardcore engineers wouldn't do, release software that is known to be buggy and poorly tested. It's taken them a long time to get to the stability of win2K, but fact that windows is the dominant desktop OS shows that they know marketing. Sure people know Gates isn't an engineer, nor does he care about software quality, but he knows business. Now if only some one would do the same for open source (besides IBM), linux would have a really good chance of becoming a dominant player.

its ironic (1)

soap.xml (469053) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008125)

its ironic how ms can come out with a "brand new framework", a huge marketing blitz and get slammed by security vulerabilities... all at the same time im looking at an add for ms visual studio.net on Slashdot ...

(click for all the bugs^H^H^H^Hinfo that won't fit in a nutshell.)

Peter Wright... (1)

avandesande (143899) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008131)

About the writer

Peter Wright is a software consultant and the author of numerous books on Visual Basic programming. He is currently working on two .Net titles for Apress slated for release later this year.

He will also be graduating 8th grade this June.

Michael, why must you be so ignorant? (4, Informative)

Zico (14255) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008134)

From the summary (yes, it was written by Michael, not the submitters): Numerous readers pointed to several stories about a buffer overflow problem in Visual Studio .NET which was supposed to be immune to buffer overflows - but it had passed Microsoft's stringent new security audit.


Where to begin with this mess of falsehoods?

  • This isn't a VS.NET buffer overflow, it's about a way to attack code generated by the Visual C++ compiler when the /GS compiler switch is used.
  • Nobody ever came close to claiming that VS.NET would automatically create C++ code that would be immune to buffer overflows. The boldest claim I've seen Microsoft make is "Also, the Microsoft® Visual Studio® .NET C compiler has support for a new /GS switch that protects your code from many common buffer overrun problems." There does indeed seem to be a flaw, similar to what makes StackGuard attacks possible, but even if you get rid of this problem, it wouldn't be immune to programmers writing potential buffer overflows into their code -- the only thing that these tools do is try to get rid of the most common errors.
  • The security audit was about making sure that one's computer/network isn't made vulnerable by having Visual Studio.NET installed on it.

On a side note, since this only affects unmanaged code, it's not really related to the .NET/CLR stuff.


Wow!!!! (1)

MrIcee (550834) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008144)

What a writeup... unbelievable. Let's see... let me get this straight... the author (and I use the term loosly... monkey might be better) has compared Billy Gates to Babbage... Gutenberg... Henry Ford...

Um... he missed Buddha... Christ... Zoroaster... I'm sure that was just an oversight though... he probably had to limit the bullshit due to editorial space.

It's the second coming for sure!!! Repent now so that you can be saved in the rapture!!! The only thing that's missing is Gates on a cross.

By replacing ".net" with "java"... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3008157)

... and the salon article becomes:

But most of all, Java is a vision, a vision where applications will run on the most suitable client -- most suitable from the point of view of the user, whether that client be a desktop PC, hand-held computer, refrigerator, mobile phone or probably even the dog's collar when some inventor gets around to it.

Right now, the Web is no more than a mirror image of the bad old mainframe days with dumb clients speaking to central all-powerful servers. Java will free us from that. Java is about your data and your applications running anywhere, on any device, at any time. Java is about freedom to share information, freedom to get at and manipulate data in the ways that you want to manipulate it. Java is the future.

.NET Framework - Longsword +4 of Sucking Less (1)

Shillo (64681) | more than 12 years ago | (#3008160)

Anybody who felt the excruciating pain of programming the Win32 API will see the .NET Framework as the salvation (provided they can't wriggle their way into programming Perl/PHP/Java/GNOME/KDE/any other language or API that was actually /designed/ rather than just grown - the way cancers get grown).

Also, .NET might have some trully positive effects - namely, it seems that it might enable functional languages to actually enter the mainstream.

Either way, personally I'll just wait and see. A couple of years from now, my opinion of MS will strongly depend on whether there'll be more than one Passport authority and whether you'll be able to talk to them from Mono.

---
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