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Why Freenet is Complicated (or not)

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the stuff-to-think-about dept.

Privacy 153

JohnBE writes "'This article is primarily a friendly rebuttal to Steven Hazel's CodeCon 2002 talk entitled "libfreenet: a case study in horrors incomprehensible to the mind of man, and other secure protocol design mistakes". Hazel presents the Freenet protocol as an overly complicated, self designed crypto layer. In fact, though somewhat complicated, literally every step in the protocol was carefully thought out to resist certain attacks and to increase certain properties desirable for Freenet operators and the network as a whole.' Interesting in light of Peek-a-booty, this article covers many of the issues involved with creating a anonymous P2P system."

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Never mind that, everyone sing along! (-1)

Captain Peacock (549525) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028290)

Are ya ready kids?
Aye aye captain!
I can't hear you!
AYE AYE CAPTAIN!
Ohhhhhhhhh, who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
SpongeBob Squarepants!
Absorbant and yellow, and pourous is he!
SpongeBob Squarepants!
If nautical nonsense be somethin' ya wish
SpongeBob Squarepants!
Then drop on the deck and flop like a fish!
SpongeBob Squarepants!
Ready?
SpongeBob Squarepants,SpongeBob Squarepants, SpongeBob Squarepants, SpongeBooob Squarepants!

(pirate laughs... SpongeBob plays his nose.)

Re:Never mind that, everyone sing along! (-1)

returnofthe_spork (552824) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028302)

Excellent First, Sir. Although I am not a fan of the squarepants, I applaud your fine effort to keep the FP away from the AC troglodytes.

Re:Never mind that, everyone sing along! (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028498)

Aye aye, Cap'n.
What. The. Fuck. [cmdrtaco.net]

Re:Never mind that, everyone sing along! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028502)

OK, why is this -1! It's a classic!

Calculus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028294)

Is my best friend. I make love to my calculus text every day.

Oh my beautiful mind! (0)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028405)

My beautiful mind is about to blow!

Re:Calculus (-1)

Super Mario Troll (542762) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028707)

Calculus sucks. I will now shove a Riemann sum up your AC ass, pigfucker. Do you like it? OK, now I will pierce your anal cavity with line integrals.

I repeat, Calculus sucks.

c'mon (-1)

prizzznecious (551920) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028295)

i was jilted before. can this be the FP that the other was meant to be?

A little honesty is refreshing sometimes (3, Interesting)

Tri0de (182282) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028304)

(from the article) ...
Some perceived minor irritations may arise due to the implementation of Freenet in Java. Java is not like C, so some porting issues are bound to arise. Porting is hard sometimes.

Re:A little honesty is refreshing sometimes (5, Interesting)

grammar nazi (197303) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028449)

In paragraph specifically mentions that the security model is overly complicated. For comparison...

Microsoft's argument for a long time was that Java's security model was overly complicated. ASP, by contrast, had a simplified security model. Either an ASP executes scripts locally, or it doesn't. Thus ASP does have a simple security model.

Now... which security model will be suitable for your projects? Which security model is potentially better for the client browsers?

I am extremely familiar with freenet and I can tell you that the current security model is very *robust* yet I feel that it is very streamlined. By contrast, napster's security model was simple. So Mr. MP3 Pirate, which security model would you prefer? Do you want to continue to enjoy music or would you rather get nasty letters from the MPAA/RIAA and get your cablemodem shut off.

Re:A little honesty is refreshing sometimes (2)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029105)

Microsoft's argument for a long time was that Java's security model was overly complicated. ASP, by contrast, had a simplified security model. Either an ASP executes scripts locally, or it doesn't. Thus ASP does have a simple security model.

I am at Rsa2002, Microsoft just presented a security model that is much richer than than Java's.

Basically they combine the fine grained permissions model of VMS (also seen in Java) with a policy engine layer similar to that of Matt Blaze's Policymaker (not surprising given the people involved).

The problem with the java model is that it is too complex for people to use. It increases the permissions complexity without providing user interface sophistication to match.

PS: contrary to the FUD spread by Gosling the other week it is clear that the security model was built into the design of .NET and was not an afterthought.

It's hopeless (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028467)

C: write once, compile everywhere
Java: write once, run nowhere

Re:It's hopeless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028732)

C write once. Compile everywhere, run it on unix....
Java. compile once. run everywhere, decide on a native compilation for speed, compile everywhere, convert to .NET ...

Re:It's hopeless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029035)

If that's true then what's this talk of porting?

Why Freenet is complicated (0, Troll)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028315)

Because it's been written in Java.

How do you expect people to set it up when the majority of people are not familiar with non-standard implementation languages such as Java?

I for one couldn't figure out how to get it to work even though I have been programming in C and C++ for over ten years.

parent is TROLL (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028342)

parent is TROLL

Re:parent is TROLL (-1, Troll)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028353)

Yeah, right. Everyone who hates Java MUST be a troll.

Java sucks and I'll prove it. (-1, Flamebait)

HanzoSan (251665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028481)



Java is slower than C, yet less powerful than C++.

Java is portible but so is C#, C, C++.

Java currently doesnt seem to be a match for C#, Java is ok, but i have yet to see a successful project written in java.

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (2)

BrookHarty (9119) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028547)

I have millions+ customers being server on a handful of java programs. The only problem I have is jvm for Solaris seems to leak memory, so we load balance and restart the java processes once a day. We did it once a month, but decided to make it nightly to be safe with the high volume of traffic. (And sys-admins are lazy!)

Most times its not the language that's the problem, its the environment, either os bugs, or some other software incompatibility.

Java seems to be fast enought for realtime mission critial apps, so stop the fud.
-
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028790)

>Java seems to be fast enought for realtime mission critial apps

What are you refering to? Would that be soft or hard realtime programs? Serverside only? Does it meet the requirements on widely used hardware or only on custom hardware or Sun workstations?

It is hard to believe when you do not give examples, especially given the apparently complete lack of Java games several years after Java was first hyped. Most games do have soft realtime requirements. If it is 'fast enough' for even soft realtime programs why are there no games written in Java?

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028559)

ANSI C is portable. C isn't. ISO C++ is portable. C++ isn't.

Also, libraries make a language. Most libraries aren't available in a lot of platforms.

I hate Java, so I agree that these languages would be a better choice for any project, but they're not transparently portable.

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028583)

Java is ok, but i have yet to see a successful project written in java.
The core of Corel Word Perfect is Java.
Whether or not you call that successful or not depends if you compare it to Microsoft Word.

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (4, Interesting)

_underSCORE (128392) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028642)

Why do I feel the need to defend java on slashdot? Here I go again:

Java is slower than C, yet less powerful than C++.

Yeah, that's a testable statement. Most of java's use is network-bound programming, where pure speed isn't an issue, but it's excellent networking library is a benefit. No one is coding an OS in java.Add to this the fact that java 1.4 is on part (except for GUIs) with C++, and you have no speed issue.

Java is portible but so is C#, C, C++.
Java is binary portable which is a huge advantage. I can take compiled code from one architecture, and run it on another. Do that in C or C++. Hell, you can't even run a complete C# program in solaris now, so much for the common run time.

Java currently doesnt seem to be a match for C#

Is that why C# is an almost exact syntatic copy of java? Is that why the architectures and security models are almost the same? Which language has more users now? Which actually has deployed code running in production?

Java is ok, but i have yet to see a successful project written in java.

Have you heard of Tomcat? That's a moderately successful java project. Also, many real businesses use java on the web layers. I guess those don't count as 'successful projects', but they should count for something. The fact that there are relatively few java projects has more to do with the open source community being stand-offish regarding java, and not with language faults.Just posted on slashdot a couple of weeks ago: Root Node Live, which is a java project (brought to you by konspire) helps people trade jam-band music.

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (3, Insightful)

wurp (51446) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029254)


Java is ok, but i have yet to see a successful project written in java.


Wow, rarely have I seen such a ridiculous statement. J2EE is incredibly widely used for internet businesses of all kinds. In this time of declining job options for programmers, java (well, J2EE, anyway) programmers are still somewhat in demand.

I have worked on many successful java projects. Xtra Online, Marconi Communications, and PDX, are just a few of the companies at which I have worked on successful java projects.

Business software is generally about reliability. Computers are easily fast enough to do any kind of business calculation blindingly fast in virtually any language, and Java is fairly speedy. Java has great reliability (no buffer overflows, no uninitialized pointers, no stack overflows, no doubly-deleted pointers, etc, etc).

If you think java is too slow for business applications, the game we are working on over at http://www.cosmgame.com is all in java. I get 50-100 frames per second in full screen 3d mode, all running under java. I shit you not. We will be showing it at the Game Developer's Conference in San Francisco March 20-23rd at Sun's booth.

Virtually no business application has anything vaguely close to the kind of performance requirements we have, and we run just fine.

See you at the GDC! ;)

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (1)

zaxus (105404) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028774)

What about ArgoUML [tigris.org] ? It's written in Java and I'd say it's successful....

Re:Java sucks and I'll prove it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029058)

did you ever wonder that your l33tn3ss is not a factor of the real world, only your linux box dreamworld in your room



get a life motherfucker

So is this parent (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028355)

parent is a TROLL

MOD PARENT UP!! (n/t) (-1)

returnofthe_spork (552824) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028367)

filler

Seriously (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028359)

Java is such crap.

Re: A version in C++ IS available. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028374)

Go figure..

Re:Why Freenet is complicated (0, Flamebait)

coltrane99 (545982) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028411)

What a great opportunity for you to stop resting on your laurels and learn something then.

Re:Why Freenet is complicated (1)

hardburn (141468) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028563)

Yeah, crypto is easy. Knowing what a "CHK" is without looking it up is easy. Figuring out how to stop Man-in-the-middle attacks is easy. Solving the initial node announcment problem is easy. It's just that gosh darn Java that is getting in the way.

Incedently, there are many people working on a GCJ-compiled Freenet, which would allow you to run a Java node as a native program. Why don't you go help them out instead of whining on Slashdot?

Re:Why Freenet is complicated (1)

benad (308052) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029088)

Yeah, crypto is easy. Knowing what a "CHK" is without looking it up is easy. Figuring out how to stop Man-in-the-middle attacks is easy.
Yes, especially if you use GnuPG and/or SSL. Oh wait, their security code in Java is getting in the way...

- Benad

I could have sworn I read this verbatim before (2, Redundant)

DebtAngel (83256) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028319)

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/ 2/17/203032/375

It would have been nice for the person who submitted the article to at least include the link to the article that paragraph came from...

Re:I could have sworn I read this verbatim before (3, Interesting)

Salamander (33735) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028401)

It was posted on infoAnarchy before it was published on kuro5hin (1:15am EST vs. 2:25am EST). It might have been posted elsewhere, or sent via email. Someone's sure going out of their way to get publicity.

The way k5 works.. (2, Insightful)

eightball (88525) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028507)

Stories are put in a submission queue for users to rate on. When a story has been sent to the front page (or a section), the date is set for that time.

This story was submitted Feb 17 <21:33 (time of comment 1)

I can't say anything of the submission process for infoAnarchy, as to whether it is readily available before it is 'posted'.

Re:The way k5 works.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028746)

infoAnarchy uses the same engine as kuro5hin, though perhaps a different version. iA's clock is also off by five hours (just checked) so the story was actually submitted there at 20:15PM EST on February 17.

Get over it.

No kidding. (3)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028431)

Its just so wrong for that scgmille [kuro5hin.org] to copy so blatently from that poorscgmile [infoanarchy.org] guy. er. wait...

Re:No kidding. (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028504)

Cheers for taking the time... Unlike some other morons, your site appears to be the most modern looking (functional) porn site I have ever seen.

Re:I could have sworn I read this verbatim before (2)

emag (4640) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028435)

It would have been nice for the person who submitted the article to at least include the link to the article that paragraph came from...

Yeah, well, looking at the dates on both the k5 [kuro5hin.org] and infoanarchy [infoanarchy.org] articles, and considering how the /. article's linked to the infoanarchy one, it looks like k5 was posted over an hour later, so it's likely not the source the submitter found it on. Not to mention that the same person is creditted on both infoanarchy and k5 with the article. Not everyone flocks to k5 as the end all and be all of "better-than-slashdot news".

You'll also note that the /. article starts off:
JohnBE writes "'This article
See the double quote followed by the single quote? Looks like the submitter was quoting the article. The relevant single quote ends here:
as a whole.'
at which point the "this article", hyperlinked to the infoanarchy piece, is supplied. Which looks an awful lot like attribution to me.

Re:I could have sworn I read this verbatim before (2, Informative)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028454)

I did supply single quotes for cosmetic reasons and to denote that it wasn't written by me. Hence the link to the article with full author attribution. I have no control over the time it was posted, or if it was seperately posted at Kuro5hin.

Re:I could have sworn I read this verbatim before (2, Informative)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028438)

I beleive the paragraph I submitted was the original article, the Kuro5hin article was posted later on. If that wasn't the case it was submitted simeltaneosly to two different sites. Big deal. Does it matter as long as we get the beef?

This will never be successful (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028322)

until they switch their infrastructure to Beowulf clusters.

It's proven: (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028329)

Bush is an idiot!

Re:It's proven: (-1)

returnofthe_spork (552824) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028338)

IAgreeWithThisPost.

Until... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028340)

...we can find the latest Britney Spears album, complete with high-res cover scans and 320kbps MP3s, I highly doubt Freenet will catch on. It's already surpassed by Morpheus and Gnutella in terms of users. The thing preventing Freenet from gaining wide acceptance is, for sure, the fact that mysterious files which you have no knowledge of their content, are automatically downloaded to your shared directory. This of course helps other people, including people you don't want to help.

Re:Until... (1)

Scott BaioWulf (540526) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029144)

Actually unless I'm mistaken (haven't checked freenet out in awhile) there still isn't a search function. This is hindering its acceptance more than the filespace surely.

There are however very few issues (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028341)

in posting anonymous flamebait on slashdot.

i Agree tOtaLly! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028343)

It must be written in C# to be safe, and it should use key escrow instead of some public key auth that only permits illegal activities anyway.

Freenet is not perfect! (0, Redundant)

Andreas(R) (448328) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028380)

My bias out of the way: I like freenet. A Lot. I run a freesite (Fishland).

This being said, I'm sorry, but parts of freenet, right now, are a complete train wreck, and the only thing keeping me around is basically the lack of another solution which achieves the goals that I want to see.

The main freenet developers are good at designing protocols. It's often been said that it's a real testiment to the freenet protocol spec, that freenet works in spite of it's codebase and lack of documentation. Those of you who've seen the freenet code will most likely agree with me, that many of the freenet developers couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag.

(And no, it's not about java vs. C - it's entierly possible to write good java, but java isn't a magic bullet that makes your code good without any effort. Freenet is proof of this ;))

Freenet 0.4 may be beta, but it is a deployed network which people are encouraged to use. There is no 0.3 download at freenetproject.org anymore, which leads me to believe that therefore, 0.4 is the network that you all want me to publish into. And if this is the case, you don't get to say "Oh, but it's the development network" as an excuse for fucking everyone who tries to actully do something with it in the ass.

Similarly, development is no damn excuse for no documentation at all, in face, development is when you *should* be creating the documentation for something as important as FNP, not as some afterthought. FCP is NOT a substitue for FNP, it only allows me to talk to my own node. There are some very good reasons sometimes to not do that. Moreover, since we have had but one set of mandatory upgrades since august 2001 (in january this year), FNP must be pretty static... older nodes seem to interoperate, for the most part, so the node->node protocol can't have changed that dramatically.

You say documentation is a priority. But the actions and words of the freenet teams scream in my face until they are blue, that if I want documentation, then I can go and fuck myself.

This is really the attitude that is percieved... that if one isn't happy with the current situation, then one should go and fuck ones self, if one isn't happy that we get mandatory upgrades with no notice at all on the web page or anywhere else a normal freenetter would look, then one should just go and fuck ones self. If one isn't happy that the general attitude of the freenet developers is that the people who are creating tools for the network, and content for the network don't fucking matter, then one should go fuck ones self.

One day, all of the freesite and freeapp authors will do exactly that, and then where will your network be?

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (0, Redundant)

amlutias (24318) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028414)

god damnit, you posted this on kuro5hin too. pick one.

At least quote who you stole it off (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028420)

This is a straight copy..paste from this posting [kuro5hin.org] .

Re:At least quote who you stole it off (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028447)

> This is a straight copy..paste from this posting.

Tell that to the dude who posted the article on Slashdot instead!

Re:At least quote who you stole it off (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028468)

This was posted two hours before on Infoanarchy. I don't understand why people don't understand single quote marks.

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028423)

I must say I agree in every respect. I've written a few apps in the past working on the fproxy level and I was stunned by the (lack of) quality of the documentation. Things like not labelling that numbers are hexadecimal (watch out for that one) or just plain mis-information. I have however found the Freenet team to be quite responisive to direct questions. But in the end it was too much of a pain and I gave up. The program worked OK enough though (for its purposes).

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (0, Redundant)

keesh (202812) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028430)

Those of you who've seen the freenet code will most likely agree with me, that many of the freenet developers couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag.


Yes, I ran "eleganceCheck" on the Freenet code and got 3.2, oh, sorry, there is no such thing. While I am clearly biased, the sheer complexity of what is achieved by the current Freenet codebase would make most software engineers give up before they had started. Connection pooling, real-time unwrapping, progressive hash checking, splitting, and rewrapping of encrypted streams, incorporation of a servlet architecture, threadpooling, unit tests, the list goes on, this is a massively sophisticated piece of software, the code is well commented, and as soon as the inter-node protocols are finalized, they will be documented (in fact, Adam Langley is working on this as we speak). Yes, the code and protocol are complicated, but no more-so than they need to be.

The development team has worked hard to make life easier for third-party developers by creating the Freenet Client Protocol (FCP), a simple protocol which anyone can use to allow third-party applications to talk to the Freenet node. The only protocol that is as-yet undocumented is the protocol used by nodes to talk to each-other. Such documentation is only of use to people hoping to develop their own Freenet node. So far, only one person has seriously attempted to do this, Adam Langley, and lack of protocol documentation didn't stand in his way (the core developers were very forthcoming with the information he needed).

In-case you are thinking how unreasonable it is for us to create a reference implementation before we document the protocol, note that the only reason everyone uses the BSD reference implementation of the TCP stack is that the TCP specification isn't worth the paper it is written on!

You say documentation is a priority. But the actions and words of the freenet teams scream in my face until they are blue, that if I want documentation, then I can go and fuck myself.


This is an Open Source project, people are working on their own time. If you want something done that badly, then the onus is on you to do it yourself. Why didn't you start work on documentation of the FNP protocol? I am sure the core developers would have given you all of the information you need. Criticising others who are already devoting huge amounts of time to a project for not doing the stuff that you want is like criticising someone for not giving enough to a charity while giving none yourself.

If one isn't happy that the general attitude of the freenet developers is that the people who are creating tools for the network, and content for the network don't fucking matter, then one should go fuck ones self.

You really need to take a reality check. The Freenet core development team spend hours of each and every day, their own spare time, working on Freenet, not for themselves, but for its users, yet all you can do is bitch about the fact that they aren't working on the things that you think they should work on first.

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (3, Interesting)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028566)

I agree with you in respective of the "fuck you" attitude of the developers, that is their perogative, but I think it is counter productive to one of their goals which is widespread acceptance.

I really beleive that good documentation coupled with good code is the reason that some projects prosper and others fail. Maybe they have the balance right, the system is ludicrously easy for Windows users now. [freenetproject.org] On the plus side:

They have a Wiki system on their homepage which allows you to add to the documentation easily (had this been available 6 months ago I would have)

The code is nearing a stable level (Datastore bug gone)

Usefull non-Pr0n applications are been developed such as Frost [sf.net] .

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (2)

Xerithane (13482) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028568)

...the sheer complexity of what is achieved by the current Freenet codebase would make most software engineers give up before they had started. Connection pooling, real-time unwrapping, progressive hash checking, splitting, and rewrapping of encrypted streams, incorporation of a servlet architecture, threadpooling, unit tests, the list goes on, this is a massively sophisticated piece of software, the code is well commented, and as soon as the inter-node protocols are finalized, they will be documented (in fact, Adam Langley is working on this as we speak). Yes, the code and protocol are complicated, but no more-so than they need to be.

Just to insert my $0.02 on this statement. While I think that Freenet is spiffy, and the work is great, judging programmers skill by what they produce is not always the best method. Please note I am not talking about the Freenet developers here.

I strongly believe in the million monkeys principle. I have seen code that was written by a team of people that expanded over 150K lines to do some amazing things. But the code was shit. You could tell the programmers did not have a grasp on not only how to write what they wrote, but even on common agreed-upon design and implementation principles.

The result: a rewrite bringing it to 57K lines and utilizing a tremendously lesser amount of memory.

The code when we got it was really phenominal. It did a lot, but had a lot of problems under the hood.

Judge a persons ability by the quality of code, not the features they produce.

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (2)

tqbf (59350) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028910)

In-case you are thinking how unreasonable it is for us to create a reference implementation before we document the protocol, note that the only reason everyone uses the BSD reference implementation of the TCP stack is that the TCP specification isn't worth the paper it is written on!

Every major operating system (Solaris, Linux, Windows, BSD) has an independant implementation of TCP. None of them share significant code, each was designed with different goals. Every one of these implementations is validated against the standard, which spans multiple RFCs. The entire Internet is held from congestion collapse by cooperation amongst these implementations.

What are you talking about?

I agree (2)

HanzoSan (251665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028465)



I also think if freenet were written in C, it would have far more developer support.

Documentation is lacking and that doesnt help, what also doesnt help is using java, Freenet barely works on Linux and MacOSX.

C would have been the language of choice simply because more people know C than java, porting would have been faster.

As far as the freenet project going down, someone needs to port freenet to C right now, if its ported to C people will develop for it.

While I konw C, i dont know java. Alot of people would like a freenet DLL for windows from which they could do somethinng like write a vb app front end for the freenet backend. This would make freenet more popular for windows.

I dont know, I disagree about the freenet developers not knowing how to code, they code way better than me, they dont seem to document anything, they dont have a status page, they rarely use the mailing lists and talk too much on frost, communication skills would help.

I think freenet has come far, I think with alittle more support, perhaps some kinda sponser or from donations, or if they make it easier for people to contribute code, freenet will be a success.

Right now freenet is just too underground and esoteric for normal programmers to deal with.

Re:I agree (1)

hardburn (141468) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028508)

C would have been the language of choice simply because more people know C than java, porting would have been faster.

Freenet did not initialy start using Java because of being cross-platform. It was used because Java is a nice language for prototyping, and because Java is very nice to use for network-centric programs.

someone needs to port freenet to C right now, if its ported to C people will develop for it.

Are you talking about the node or the clients? The clients have FCP, an easy protocol to implement, so there is no reason why you can't write your client in C. As for the node, do you really expect Freenet to throw away all the work that has been done for the last few years and start over in C? (We actualy had this debate on the Freenet development lists recently).

Further, while lack of documentation certainly doesn't help, Freenet is a inheirently complex beast that isn't for the faint of heart to attempt understanding of. Knowing a lot about crypto will give you a head start, but even so, the typical time to overcome Freenet's learning curve is about six months, if you push it. Porting the node to C isn't going to help people who are having problems getting over basic Freenet concepts, such as CHKs.

If you don't like the lack of documentation, why don't you write it yourself. The developers are quite responsive to anyone needing help with documentation.

java vs c wars. (2)

leuk_he (194174) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028717)

You can always pick fight over Java is better than c or c is better than java. its tried a logt on the tech mailing list of freenet project.

There is a whiterose C++ implementation of freenet.(development is frozen there however 8) i think this is not picked up before 1.0

But above all freenet now requires:
-documentation. (no coding
-testing procedures. a test set or something like that. (you can code the tests in the language of your choice.....)
-more nodes in the network. (just download it)
-better client software. you can write a client in any language you want.

Re:I agree (3, Insightful)

bnenning (58349) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028844)

C would have been the language of choice simply because more people know C than java, porting would have been faster.


It's much easier to write network applications in Java than C, and cross-platform compatibility is far better. Performance is another matter, but apparently they would rather make it work first and then make it work faster, which is entirely reasonable.


While I konw C, i dont know java.


There's your problem :) I know both, and in my opinion Java is a much better choice for what Freenet is trying to do.

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (1)

Outland Traveller (12138) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028638)

> Those of you who've seen the
> freenet code will most likely agree with me, that
> many of the freenet developers couldn't code their
> way out of a wet paper bag.

I remember looking at Scott Miller's code on Gamora and feeling like, "Wow, this is the most elegent OOP code I've seen in the wild". Most code really sucks, especially if it's written in an OOP language and gets to be more than a few thousand lines.

Very few people could make the concept work in those days when Design Patterns was still new. Scott was one of those people and it looks like he's still an active developer. So, while I agree with the other statements in your comment I must disagree with the snipe about the coders not being any good.

Re:Freenet is not perfect! (1)

42forty-two42 (532340) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028837)

So YOU'RE the phish!

War was beginning (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028386)

All your freenet are belong to us

nobody uses freenet. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028388)

therefore, nobody cares.

Kuro5hin artical as well. (4, Informative)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028422)

This was also posted [kuro5hin.org] to another scoop site, kuro5hin :)

For those of you who care, Ian Clark also commented on the story himself(1 [kuro5hin.org] 2 [kuro5hin.org] 3 [kuro5hin.org] 4 [kuro5hin.org] 5 [kuro5hin.org] )

Re:Kuro5hin artical as well. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028803)

Someone mod him down redundant.

And my sanity is intact (1)

OO7david (159677) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028940)

I saw this after on /. after I got home from school and could have sworn I saw it earlier. I checked K5 (my main hideout), but it was neither in the queue nor on the front page. I was about to question my sanity.

By the way, Kuro5hin is Scoop based, Slashdot is Slashcode based.

Freenet is not complicated (1, Redundant)

HanzoSan (251665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028424)



When you compare it to stuff like gnutella, mojonation and others, freenet is about average.

Freenet's not hard to write programs for at all, Freenet itself is whats complicated.

Currently I know C, VB, and I'm learning Java.

Freenet is not that complicated. Its just not documented as well as it could be.

Re:Freenet is not complicated (2, Insightful)

hardburn (141468) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028529)

In comparison to what? Client development? Ease-of-use? Node implementation?

Freenet is pretty easy for client development and average for ease-of-use. However, node implementation is no easy task (just ask Adam Langly).

Re:Freenet is not complicated (4, Informative)

jon_c (100593) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028943)

I can't really comment on mojonation as last time i checked they didn't have any real documenation on how it actually worked, but Gnutella is way simpler then Freenet.

I wrote a gnutella client in one night, when gnutella first hit the net people had already figured out the protocol and we're writing clients for it within days. There are only about 5 different commands in Gnutella, i have no idea how many freenet is. But i have attempted to understand more then just a high level concept and found the details to be confusing as all hell.

anyway,

-Jon

It'll be done when: (0, Troll)

metalhed77 (250273) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028455)

I'll start using freenet when:

1. Response times are less than 5 seconds
2. Data is retrieved at over 6kb/s
3. A way to search data over freenet is made.

Freenet... (2, Funny)

arnoroefs2000 (122990) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028470)

Possible the only network with a higher Porn : Non-Porn ratio than the Internet itself :P

Re:Freenet... (-1)

Guillaume Ross (517391) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028525)

What about Gnutella and Fasttrack ? :)

Re:Freenet... (1)

arnoroefs2000 (122990) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028545)

Trust me, Freenet has more (relatively).

Re:Freenet... (-1)

Guillaume Ross (517391) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028603)

Is it as easy/fast/easy resume ? I mean, not that I want porn but for the...other stuff..yeah...other stuff?

REPOST! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028489)

Please ignore. Thank you.

--C0WB0YN34L

Digital Cable (1, Offtopic)

autopr0n (534291) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028490)

Do these things work with digital cable? Most of the coolest stuff on HBO, Showtime, MTV2 is really only available with digital cable. Would these things work with that?

Anonymous P2P systems (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028496)

If you wish to read about well-designed anonymous P2P systems, look at Crowds (similar design to Pick-a-Booty, years earlier).
Anonymity has many more uses: censorship resistant systems often use anonymity. See, for example Free Haven or the following article on a new design
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~aas23/Anon_p2p2.ps

Please tell me why... (2, Insightful)

james_underscore (468915) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028571)

I'm not sure why I would want to install freenet on my system. From what I understand, basically I'm expected to download and install this software and give a certain amount of my own bandwidth and disk space over to the network. I have no way of knowing what's stored on my hard disk and being downloaded from me. I've peered through a key list for freenet and it seems most of the data is porn. You might accuse me of being alarmist but i'm fairly confident a good amount of that will be illegal porn (underage, etc) otherwise it would be on the web somewhere.

So now I've paid money to buy bandwidth and disk space to set up a porn server, and I'm not even getting ad revenues.

As for protecting speach, couldn't a government just make the freenet software itself illegal if it wanted to?

I can't see it really catching on - apart from a few paranoid "lone gunmen" types and comic book store guy, who's it going to appeal to?

Just a question.

James

Re:Please tell me why... (2, Interesting)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028618)

A government could make encryption software illegal, however the legal barriers are quite high. In Europe they have the Human Rights act which protects a lot of rights (which is one of the reasons the RIP Act has not been rigourously enforced in England) and in the US you have the constitution.

I started using Freenet for the technical challenge, a kind of Internet within Internet, which is a kind of neat concept, but there are also some interesting quite innovative sites on there. But danger Will Robinson, there is also some evil!

Has there ever been a time that you want to comment about something and protect you identity? Freenet [freenetproject.org] allows this.

Re:Please tell me why... (-1)

Serial Troller (556155) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028777)

Didn't you hear? George Bush ATE OUR CONSTITUTION for lunch the other day.

Re:Please tell me why... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028780)

Did he choke on it?

Re:Please tell me why... (-1)

Serial Troller (556155) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028798)

No, that was a PRETZEL. Or maybe it was a BIG JUICY COCK. I don't know...

With regards of duel posting. (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028647)

Here [freenetproject.org] is the original post, on the Freenet homepage about the Infoanarchy piece, as to whether it was posted on Kuro5hin or InfoAnarchy, read either, it doesn't matter. At the above link is an MP3 file of the original cited speech [dnalounge.com] (at Codecon [codecon.org] ).

The problem with Freenet... (1, Insightful)

Andreas(R) (448328) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028666)

... doesn't lie in its protocol or security, but in its inconvenience to users. Information simply disappears off of the network, making it almost impossible for regular use. While it was not designed for sharing music and porn, thats what most people think p2p networks are for these days. As a result, the oppressed people that the project was designed for can't use the system. The initial concept that one cannot store information on their system was good, but is being abused by too many people. There simply are not enough permanent connections with enough disk space to support the current incarnation of Freenet.

The second problem is the inability to find information. Even if it does exist, very few people know how to find it. Until the key indices are completed and a uniform naming system is accepted, information will just sit there, and be as good as lost.

I apologize for this being somewhat offtopic and please correct me if either of these problems have been solved. I'd really love to see Freenet take off, but it seems that it may be dead on arrival being too difficult to use for end users.

Re:The problem with Freenet... (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028709)

There are several applications running on top of Freenet that solve some of the problems, one of which is Frost [sf.net] which allows you to search files, and has BBS features. The other way that people are running indices which people can submit information to. These are linked from the initial Freenet banner. Content Of Nice is one of these on the 0.4 network.

Re:The problem with Freenet... (1)

flink (18449) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028884)

Part of the problem with data disappearing is due to the instability of the code base. Up until recently people had to reset their datastore anywhere from once a week to everyday. This made it kind of hard for your inserted data stick around very long unless you're CofE :)

I think the new store is pretty stable. It croaked once on me, but it was a pre-459 running under a build 459 node, so I don't reall blame it. I think once 0.5 is out things will start to look pretty good.

Freenet overall... (2)

XRayX (325543) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028738)

I really like Freenet overall and thought a while about putting my new HP up as a freesite. I didn't do it for minor reasons. Anyway I think it is a great project and put all my (big)file releases up as a public KSK, simply beacuse it's a good, clean and simple way to share files.
The main problem is that it will never gain popularity. Freenet has mainly two target audiences: The file-sharing community (WareZ Groups etc.) and the people, who like the Idea of browsing anonymously.
Until now Freenet has no popularity in both areas. The egoistic WareZ Groups don't even think about using Freenet, eventhough they really should contribute more to OpenSource projects, because they are the ones using them really heavily (think of LAME, MPEG2Decoders, etc.), and stick with old/insecure/closed Technologies like FTP, IRC and EDonkey.
Maybe all this would get better if we all start advertising freenet a bit more wherever we hang around (Boards, IRC, Weblogs) and promote it as a fast, secure, anonymous, stable, easy way to share files.

Re:Freenet overall... (2, Insightful)

hardburn (141468) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028992)

Anyway I think it is a great project and put all my (big)file releases up as a public KSK, simply beacuse it's a good, clean and simple way to share files.

Sorry, but I'm about to make this a whole lot more complex :) In the Freenet development cicle we have a saying:

DON'T USE A KSK!!!

KSKs are highly insecure, because you have no means of validating that the data is really the data that you orginally inserted. I suggest you migrate your old KSK data over to a subspace.

Until now Freenet has no popularity in both areas.

The MAME community has distributed quite a number of ROM images via Freenet. That has to count for something.

Ha! The future of Slashdot REVEALED (-1)

Serial Troller (556155) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028751)

  • 2002. Slashdot publishes 1,000,000th rumor passed off as actual story. The story generates 480 comments, 263 of which agree with the article, and 107 of which point out it's a rumor and are modded down as redundant. The remaining comments are all "first posts."
  • 2002. CmdrTaco married.
  • 2002. Slashdot parent corporation VA Research^W Linux^W Software stock worth 35 cents. Rumors that AOL, Microsoft, or even Jimmy the hobo who lives under the Longfellow Bridge may buy it.
  • 2003. VA Software bought by Microsoft for a cup of coffee and a donut. All Microsoft-critical articles mysteriously disappear from Slashdot. Bill Gates as Borg logo replaced with Bill Gates as God.
  • 2004. CmdrTaco loses virginity.
  • 2004. The WIPO Troll returns again, showering Slashdot in 45,000 copies of the same post: "Lick my crotch hairs." Slashdot, despite running on 18 redundant IIS/8.0 servers, buckles under the load. The term "Slashdotted" is replaced with "WIPO-Trolled."
  • 2004. Slashdot officially shut down. Millions of screaming, unwashed geeks invade Redmond campus and lynch Bill Gates.
  • 2005. Linus Torvalds and Anal Cox found dead along with six penguins, a tub of crisco and several used condoms.
  • 2005. CmdrTaco rumored to have had sex again.
  • 2006. CowboiKneel found dead in hotel room with 56 pizza boxes covering his bloated corpse. Three suffocated gay prostitutes are extracted from beneath his body as police remove it with a backhoe.
  • 2007. CmdrTaco actually has sex again.
  • 2007. BSD is still officially "dying." No word on when its demise will take place.
  • 2007. CmdrTaco starts new weblog to replace Slashdot, creatively named Dotslash. Remainder of Linux users flock to the site and immediate WIPO-Troll it out of existence.
  • 2008. CmdrTaco has sex with his wife for the first time.

Freenet project official website... (0, Redundant)

42forty-two42 (532340) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028772)

is located here. [freenetproject.org]

Just tried it out (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028984)

The freenet sounded interesting so I just downloaded it and checked it out. I dunno if my firewall was blocking something but boy was it slow. I could only get the basic html and I never saw a single image come across. I waited for about 3+ minutes before I saw the text.

I read in the faq that 0.5 will be faster but they have a really really long way to go, from what I saw.

For now I've uninstalled it.

GnuPG??? (1)

benad (308052) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029057)

Why not? GPG [gnupg.org] works pretty well already and is distributed under GPL, so why re-invent the wheel?

I still can't beleive that encryption, digital signatures and random key generators can be both fast and secure in Java...

- Benad

Re:GnuPG??? (3, Informative)

LinuxHam (52232) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029219)

The purpose of GPG is either to encrypt data specifically for one person, certify exactly who created/encrypted said data, or both. Freenet was designed to encrypt data for anyone while guaranteeing anonymity of the submitter.

Yes, you could use GPG to encrypt with a symmetric key and just not sign it, but you'd still need to build an infrastructure around it. Freenet wants "plausible deniability" for the hosting server, making it impossible for anyone to decrypt the data as its stored on the disk. A symmetric key with GPG would be immediately decryptable.

Freenet Trademark (2)

farrellj (563) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029065)

Has anyone dealt with the problem that Freenet is trademarked by some univesity that was responsable for the original community network software that runs places like the National Captial Freenet (ncf.ca), and similar sites?

ttyl
Farrell
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