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Richard Stallman On KDE/GNOME Cooperation

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the getting-along-is-the-whole-point dept.

GNU is Not Unix 411

Karma Sucks writes: "For the first time that I remember, RMS is encouraging collaboration between the GNOME and KDE projects. He offers a concrete idea: Unifying the themes between KDE and GNOME. Matthias Ettrich once went far enough to propose a default unified 'Linux' theme that both Qt and GTK+ could support."

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411 comments

First Post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028850)

hehehehe! fpfpfp!!!!

Re:First Post (-1)

returnofthe_spork (552824) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028890)

Sorry,

In accordance with the First Post Convention, 1947, you will have to be stripped of the FP. I hearby award this FP to it's rightful owner, Pr0n K1ng. Please log in next time.

Thank you.

I, once again, claim this first post... (-1)

Pr0n K1ng (160688) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028851)

In the name of all my logged in Biznizitches!

Ctrl-Alt-Del (-1, Offtopic)

Cryptopotamus (460702) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028860)

RMS can Ctrl-Alt-Del me anyday!!! I love that dinosaur.

kde-look.org (4, Informative)

The Great Wakka (319389) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028861)

I've never heard of it before. I would have posted themes.org as the link. But that's me. kde-look is a very nice website, but is there a GNOME equivalent?

Re:kde-look.org (3, Informative)

grrae (558854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028915)

I found this page [themes.org] . It seems to be what your looking for.

Too Late... (-1)

returnofthe_spork (552824) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028871)

GNOME is already dead. Viva KDE!!

Re:Too Late... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029012)

If you use KDE, then be happy with but dont try to start another KDE vs. GNOME war. That s just stupid. You think KDE is fine for you, well that s OK and use it. I for myself use GNOME (which I can assure you is not dead), but I dont say that KDE is shit or dead.

KDE is just fine for some people and so is GNOME.

So my advice... Shut up and if you love so much KDE try to contribute to it.

Gnome is fine... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029059)

... if you're a homo. Otherwise you gotta just be more than a little repulsed by the visualizing RMS and Miguel hot-toddying each other up there in FSF Main Offices!

KDE is OBVIOUSLY better because it's made by annoying Europeans. Boy they sure can code over there, in between jaunts down to the local hash shop!

Hoping (2, Insightful)

TheMatt (541854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028873)

I really hope this will happen. There are so many apps that each has, that a KDE-Gnome work-together would be great. For example, I would love Konsole in Gnome and Galeon in KDE...with the stability they have in their native setting.

Plus, it always seems KDE looks better than Gnome, though I don't know why. Just my opinion.

Re:Hoping (1)

einer (459199) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028892)

Konsole in gnome works great. Never had a problem with it.

Re:Hoping (3, Informative)

avalys (221114) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028950)

Why would you have stability problems running KDE apps in gnome, and vice-versa? They're only X-Apps - konsole, gimp, and the rest couldn't care less what window manager/desktop environment/file manager/web browser you're using.

Re:Hoping (1)

dagoalieman (198402) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028959)

Actually, I think it'd be great on the mere fact that it brings us a little closer to a universal linux configuration.

No, I'm not talking about doing away with distro's- just with how things are configured. Each distro can have its own software, look, and feel, but really, one of the main problems right now is the fact that settings aren't in the same place for so much stuff. Start to get things a little more universal, and people will pick the one that's best for them, but not be so scared to try other linux distros because they know they'll still be able to use it.

It would also add some punch to the push to get Linux on corporate desktops- MS's main building block was the universal aspect of it, and even though it means imitating "the enemy," it gets us past the pettyness of who's best, and lets us put the OS up to show for itself.. People like a sound argument in these big decisions, not arrogance.

.

Re:Hoping (2)

joestar (225875) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029014)

"For example, I would love Konsole in Gnome and Galeon in KDE..."

Did you... ever try Mandrake? I think your dream has been a reality for a while.

Woah (3, Funny)

mosch (204) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028876)

Woah now, I know RMS is considered to be an important fellow, but this is a crazy idea. Come on, cooperation between KDE and GNOME? What crazy idea is next, a free flow of information and help between BSD and Linux?

Oh wait, my bad, this idea is so obvious it's rediculous. Does anybody have a valid reason why it hasn't happened already?

Re:Woah (2, Troll)

scott1853 (194884) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028908)

I think the answer to your last question can be summed up in one word. Ego.

Yes ego. It's not just for the criminally monopolists =)

Re:Woah (1)

Trevelyan (535381) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029086)

Plus the conflicting GNU and BSD licences, me thinks

Re:Woah (-1, Offtopic)

Neuracnu Coyote (11764) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029003)

God damn your sig is lame.

Re:Woah (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029129)

The KDE and Gnome projects have completely different infrastructures; making apps interoperate would be a Major undertaking. Different GUI toolkits, different interproc communications, even different languages for most all project-related work if you want to go to that level. And each project believes it's already doing the best thing, so changing to the other way would be a step backwards.

Common theming is one thing; general commonality is quite a different, larger scale effort.

Sounds like a good idea (3, Insightful)

gadfium (318941) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028877)

Ideally, I'd like to see as many applications as possible running under both environments. With most Linux distributions currently, the libraries for both environments are supplied. I'd like to see this become standard, and I'd also like to see an interface library developed in collaboration which will translate calls to either gnome or kde, depending on which is running. This library would have to be primarily written in C++ to suit the existing QT/KDE application base, but would also need to have C and other language bindings.

Re:Sounds like a good idea (1)

ambrosius27 (251484) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029087)

I don't know how feasible your idea is, though it sounds attractive. Without wanting to starting a language flamewar here, though, I'll say that it would probably be easier to write the interface library in C rather than in C++. Why? Creating language bindings for C is easier than for C++ (at least, that is the conventional wisdom). Also, since C++ is mostly a superset of C, then C++ can use C libraries whereas C cannot use C++ libraries. Anyhoodle, your idea is attractive, but I wonder whether it's technologically feasible no matter which language one uses. Anyone care to comment?

Hmmm (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028887)

I know RMS. He explained the situation to me.

See... he was sitting at home doing bong hits when this earwig crawled out of his beard and whispered in his ear "kde and gnome...kde and gnome...one and the same...make it so."

Re:Hmmm (-1)

Bacillus0101 (267481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029021)

LOL!!! utterly amazing, a joke about that dirty gnu hippy that's actually quite funny.

Jesus was a Negro.

Wow (2, Insightful)

mikeage (119105) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028893)

I honestly fail to see how anyone could disagree with this. A common interface to help newbies, and retaining the customization power that makes linux great... just don't make it another OS X ripoff.. PLEASE!

Re:Wow (1)

TheMatt (541854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028921)

Obviously from my reply below, I disagree about the OS X bit. Friends I have that shun computers with a passion see the OS X desktop and dive right in. That is what Linux needs, I think. A common, beautiful, yet easy and functional theme that shows off the power of the OS.

Re:Wow (1)

LordNimon (85072) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028944)

So, what company is going to pony up the millions of dollars it will take to hire the world's best interface designers (well, 2nd-best, since Apple has the best) and pay them to design it and code it? Oh, that's right - NO ONE WILL.

Of course, this whole thing assumes that the developers of GNOME and KDE will actually implement whatever the aforementioned designers come up with.

Re:Wow (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029062)

So, what company is going to pony up the millions of dollars it will take to hire the world's best interface designers ... and pay them to design it and code it?

Or, uh, who's willing to copy Aqua pixel-for-pixel and take advantage of apple's existing interface design?

Oh wait...

Re:Wow (2, Informative)

Yorrike (322502) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028964)

I'll say.

Yes, the whole "my desktop is liquid" look is trendy at the moment, but I think there definitely needs to be a super-sexy not-found-elsewhere none-ripoff default theme for both KDE and Gnome.

Just take a brose through something like the GUG galleries ( This for example [sunsite.dk] ) and imagine these works as entire themes.

In the same way that flashy graphics make people buy video games, KDE and Gnome need to attract the masses with sex appeal.

Re:Wow (4, Interesting)

zhensel (228891) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029137)

Actually, there's a pretty simple argument against this. Standardizing the desktop stagnates innovation. With a standard "Linux" desktop, all distributions for a good amount of time will have to follow that standard or face alienating their users. Look at how little the MacOS interface changed before OSX and how only with Windows XP has Windows had a major interface revision - and even now it is still heavily rooted in the framework of prior revisions.

Personally, I agree with you and think a standard would be a good idea. Taking a step away from rapid developement and making a single stable interface would do wonders for acceptance. Besides, you can always have easily accessible information on configuring your interface how you like it. Still though, the arguement against this is pretty obvious.

I'd probably say that the best idea would be for some group to go and dedictate a year or so to making the be-all-end-all of interfaces. Not some wierd hybrid of previous interfaces like most distros ship now, but something that is simple, elegent, etc. Other people have said it, and I'll repeat - like the OSX interface. I'm not saying it's the most efficient, but it consistently does what you intuitively expect it to do. That's what a defacto Linux "theme" would need to do. The only other option, I suppose, is just to copy Windows or OSX or another highly developed/researched interface. There simply exists nothing right now that would make sense to call the default desktop.

quai dit y (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028897)

quai dit y: frit hors note seau frit?

The Best Theme? (1)

TheMatt (541854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028900)

Copy OSX's theme. That is by far the nicest desktop I've ever seen. Of course, doing that isn't exactly putting a "Linux" stamp on a desktop. There are things that can be changed on the OSX desktop (the transparent dock [mac.com] , for example) and added (GKrellM [wt.net] ).

I have no doubt the artists at themes.org could come up with a similarly elegant theme.

Re:The Best Theme? (2, Insightful)

robbieduncan (87240) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028945)

ANy serious attempt to copy the look ant feel of OSX on any non-apple product will bring down Apples lawyers like a pack of rabid wolves. Sorry , the best Linux desogn minds will just have to come up with their own ideas.

Re:The Best Theme? (1)

MaxVlast (103795) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028980)

Plus, they're typically butt-ugly.

Some MS person came up with an OS X theme for XP not long ago. It was absolutely ghastly, and all of the comments indicated that the Windows-using masses were masturbating furiously, they liked it so much.

It sure made me feel secure in my choice of OS =)

Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (5, Interesting)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028901)

I use KDE but prefer Mozilla. I am *sick* of the incompatible clipboards that KDE/GTK use. As a matter of fact, I just complained to my co-worker about this and said, "This is why a monopoly is a good thing: someone to declare 'clipboard functions work this way or no way'". Damn I hate this.

Re:Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (2)

4of12 (97621) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028930)

Yea, verily.

Sure, let KDE and Gnome start on the surface with themes that provide a common lool `n feek.

But then, start digging down to the lower level inter object communications layers to get exchange of data at that level, even if it's something that's slower than molasses between KCOP and Bonobo. As long as it works!

Re:Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028968)

Have you *read* that quote? Are you fucking NUTS?!?!?


"Deuteronomy 25
11"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals,
12then you shall cut off her hand; (1) you shall not show pity."

Re:Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028970)

With monopoly you would only get KDE _or_ Mozilla...

Re:Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (1)

PD (9577) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028982)

With cow-orkers like that, who needs managers?

Re:Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (3, Interesting)

forgoil (104808) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029044)

You have pinpointed the absolutely biggest strength with Windows. You will always have the same controls, things will be where you assume them to be, the clipboard will work, COM works, DirectX works, there is one win32(64) etc etc etc.

So how come diversity is bad in this case? Because it's confusing and counterproductive. It uses a lot of development time that could have been better spent on one better solution that is taken to a mature state.

If KDE/Gnome wants to make certain protocols etc comming, that's nice as long as nobody is left out. But I would never accept two desktopsystems on my computer. I'd rather see more work on KDE/QT.

If you want Linux to be sold with home computers, this is what you need:

  1. One desktop with a good set of standard applications and tools
  2. A good office suite
  3. Good support 24/7 that you can trust
  4. A much better packaged product
  5. All subsystems should have the same release proceedueres as KDE, this more than anything includes the kernel. It absolutely has to be stable and be as free from bugs and holes as possible at each release point. The system won't be updated if it requires compiling the kernel and configing it.
  6. A dead simple upgrade/patch system. Use Konqi, have a little blinking thing on the screen saying "new stuff" and make everything upgradable.
  7. Kill off all diversity in formats for configuration files, add a reposatory (done the right way, think of it as a database. And put everything in files instead of one huge one, it forced me to reinstall my XP, pissed me off to no ends) and make it simply to configure. If I know what I want to change I shouldn't have to read the help.
  8. Write help files for everything in the system. And that includes everything from "how do I set the keyboard to Swedish" to "I want to know what this obscure error message from g++ means".

There you go, there you have a list. A lot of the ground work is done, and some of the work is being done as I sit here and wriet. But now it just requires more work, people disagreeing, people agreeing and much much more work (see why we don't want five more GUI systems etc etc).

See it as a MacOS X killer if you want to ^_^ Heck, I wished I had time to do this myself. Guess you should mail me if you can muster a 1,000 coders, including the kernel and KDE people. Should sell it (and support people) to Compaq, HP, Dell, etc to include in their new spiffy computers. Including a DVD with all the binaries and source (eat that M$!).

So fix it... (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029093)

shit man, the source is there, if it pisses you off *that much* then fix it.

Re:Forget Themes: Make the Clipboards compatible (5, Interesting)

grungeKid (4260) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029111)

Actually, the X has a fairly sophisticated clipboard
model, maybe a little bit too sophisticated. Hence it has traditionally been poorly understood and badly implemented in apps and toolkit.

Gnome does the Right Thing with respect to clipboards, while QT2/KDE2 uses a more limited clipboard model. The good news is that QT3 and thereby KDE3 will do the Right Think and therefore interoperate a lot better with Gnome (as well as properly written X apps such as XEmacs)

These comments are somewhat enlighening: http://dot.kde.org/1013076354/

Also read this for a backgrounder about clipboard and X: http://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html

Crazy Talk (1)

jim.b0b (559877) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028903)

Collaboration, unified themes, this is crazy talk! Where will you ever find developers with diverse beliefs working together to improve a product?

To Hell with RMS (-1, Flamebait)

pnatural (59329) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028904)

Straight from the goats mouth:

When Qt was non-free, KDE was a danger to the community, and we had to
attack it to make people aware of the threat so we could overcome it.
We succeeded; Qt is free software now and KDE is no longer a problem.
The ill feelings that linger between GNOME developers and KDE
developers are not good for the community
, and it is very useful
to help calm the antagonism.
Emphasis mine.

So, let's review. RMS didn't like KDE because it was not "free". RMS attacks KDE. KDE changes. Now RMS claims that the "ill feelings" he helped foster are not good (ungood?) for the community.

It seems to me that RMS was part of the problem that created this ill will, not part of the solution. I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with themes on linux, but I smell a rat. All he's offering is an email for crying out loud, he's not offering any thing substansive at all, unless you count his blessings as substansive.

If you ask me, this is just a way for RMS to get his fingers into KDE.

Re:To Hell with RMS (-1, Troll)

Bilestoad (60385) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028938)

He wasn't just part of it, he WAS it. This asshole believes he is the god of all things free, and when people don't do what he says he gets all upset. The Free Software movement needs RMS for his uncompromising attitude - but at the same time is handicapped by RMS' uncompromising attitude.

He convinces those who don't need convincing, and he drives away those that do need convincing. In the long term I'm not convinced the costs outweight the benefits of allowing this giant ego to dominate the future of Linux.

Re:Read the entire paragraph (1)

TheDancer (43497) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028939)

When Qt was non-free, KDE was a danger to the community, and we had to
attack it to make people aware of the threat so we could overcome it.
We succeeded; Qt is free software now and KDE is no longer a problem.
The ill feelings that linger between GNOME developers and KDE
developers are not good for the community, and it is very useful
to help calm the antagonism.
emphasis mine. Bryan

Re:Read the entire paragraph (1)

pnatural (59329) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029015)

oh, please. what RMS is saying, and the trap you've fallen into is this: by extension, all non-gpl-compatible software is a "danger". if that's true, then why isn't RMS "attacking" FreeBSD (or any of the thousands of packages released under the BSD license)? if that's true, why isn't RMS "attacking" Microsoft, IBM, Apple, et al?

The answer is simple. RMS isn't "attacking" those licensers (?) because they're not a threat to "his" operating system, but KDE was.

But it's even more insidious than that, IMO. The view RMS is taking is that all software must be "attacked" if it's non-gpl-compatible. That's sad, because it leads to a totalitarian attitude. Oh, wait, too late.

Re:Read the entire paragraph (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029134)

by extension, all non-gpl-compatible software is a "danger" if that's true, then why isn't RMS "attacking" FreeBSD

You apparantly do not understand the difference between "GPL compatable" and "free".

The view RMS is taking is that all software must be "attacked" if it's non-gpl-compatible

Horseshit. RMS recognizes that non-GPLed software can still be free:

Not at all (4, Insightful)

drew_kime (303965) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028963)

He explained his reasons for opposing KDE. As you even said in your summation, it had nothing to do with who was in charge and everything to do with the license. The license has since changed, so there is no more need to oppose KDE.

People who assume his attack on the license was an attack on the people who chose to use that license are the ones who come off as ideologues.

Re:Not at all (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029117)

All your license are belong to us.

Re:To Hell with RMS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028966)

I like Richard Stallman. He is a good guy. I hope that everybody will like Richard.
He started the Free Software movement and deserves plenty of credit.

We love you Richard!

Re:To Hell with RMS (5, Insightful)

BlaisePascal (50039) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028991)

That's not a fair reading, in my opinion.


RMS didn't like KDE because it was not "free" -- and in fact, in his opinion, it's position was threatening Free Software in general (it undermined the GPL, it took people away from developing Free alternatives, etc). So he argued against KDE, in favor of GNOME, a truely Free alternative.


KDE is now Free, in part because of serious amounts of lobbying by the Free Software Community, including RMS. KDE is no longer the bad guy, RMS no longer has a beef with KDE.


Now that the "Free KDE" battle is over, RMS is now saying "Um guys... we won -- ALL of us (KDE and GNOME) won, last year. It's time, past time, to stop sabre-rattling at each other". Since Qt became GPL-compatable, I haven't seen RMS stoking the GNOME v. KDE fires. Now he's trying to quench the GNOME v. KDE fires, because leaving them smouldering is bad for Free Software in general.

Re:To Hell with RMS (1)

benjj (302095) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029009)

So, let's review. RMS didn't like KDE because it was not "free".

Well, it (Qt) wasn't!

RMS attacks KDE. KDE changes.

Qt changes - for the better. Things are safe now, whereas they weren't before.

Now RMS claims that the "ill feelings" he helped foster are not good (ungood?) for the community.

It seems to me that RMS was part of the problem that created this ill will, not part of the solution.

Er.. the licence changed to a Free one because of RMS + GNU. This is a good thing. The GNU developers may have gotten pissed off with the KDE ones and vice versa - unfortunately these kind of things spiral out of control. RMS is now trying to make things right again. What's wrong with that?

I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with themes on linux, but I smell a rat. All he's offering is an email for crying out loud, he's not offering any thing substansive at all, unless you count his blessings as substansive. If you ask me, this is just a way for RMS to get his fingers into KDE.

What a load of tosh. This can only be a good thing and how can setting a default "linux" theme give RMS control over KDE? Although really, this is something which I am surprised that one of the distros (Mandrake?) hasn't already done.

Re:To Hell with RMS (2, Interesting)

Error27 (100234) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029010)

>>All he's offering is an email for crying out loud, he's not offering any thing substansive at all, unless you count his blessings as substansive.

Yeah... I was really surprised when I clicked on the link to mail.gnome.org and saw an email.

A lot of times when you read email then there are cool videos and 3-d graphics. One time I found a live goat!

I guess open source email lists just aren't up to the standards Microsoft users are accustomed to. I mean *sheesh* email on an email list??? How old fashioned!

OH MY G-D! (0, Flamebait)

JoeLinux (20366) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028907)

I think there are flying pigs somewhere. Hell has definitely become a ski resort. RMS conceding a point. Wow. Will wonders never cease?

Joe Carnes

Been there (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029119)

I once sat through the famous free laser printer story with a room full of law students and confused academics. At the end of the talk a number of particularly amusing students asked if RMS thought, just occassionally, in his deepest darkests moments, he ever considered that Emacs might be just a little bit bloated. Everyone in the room burst out laughing but RMS quietly explained how no, Emacs isn't bloated, every feature is necessary and really the question isn't on topic anyways.

Yes... And...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028912)

RMS is irrelevant. His latest comments show him to be less the firebrand of yore than the pussyfooter of politics. Maybe, in addition to this KDE/Gnome cooperation, he can organize a love-in with his buddy Miguel de Icaza.

Like the ecumenical movement, the original meaning is lost once the position that everything leads to the same outcome is undertaken.

Indeed a good idea but (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028923)

what is needed more is interopability of the component and document models, heck both desktops can't even handle non x clipboards in a compatible way. The first thing a normal desktop user who uses Linux for the first time would ask, why he can't drag a file from konqueror into evolution and why he cant paste his gimp picture into kword over the clipboard!
Heck even e copy from a galeon the copy paste menu way would never generate a paste in kedit!
I'm sure a user would care less about a common L&F than about a precise and normed app interoperability, which should be possible!

I want a single desktop anyway (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028927)

Personally I think KDE and GNOME should chuck it all in and start to work together on a unified desktop taking the best elements from both and combining them.

KDE is so much nicer to develop for than GNOME imho but I prefer to use GNOME, I'm sure that others have differing opinions about what they like and hate about each environment, but working together to provide maybe the ultimate desktop experiance would be brilliant!

I know this opinion is a little radical and not likely to happen, but if I had my eutopia, that would be it!

Re:I want a single desktop anyway (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029150)

> Personally I think KDE and GNOME should chuck it all in and start to work together on a unified desktop taking the best elements from both and combining them.

"The best elements" according to whom? You'll either wind up with a single desktop loathed by everyone for one reason or another, or a Huge pile loathed by everyone for its bloat.

There's a *good* reason for having choices: being able to have choices.

Does this mean... (3, Funny)

SteelX (32194) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028932)

We'll soon get GNU/KDE and KGNOME?

More descriptive name for a combined project... (2)

rbeattie (43187) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029090)

Kgnode?
Gnoked?
Gnodek?
Kdome?
Kgdneome?

or my favorite:

Gnuked.

-Russ

Re:Does this mean... (1)

Phexro (9814) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029092)

"We'll soon get GNU/KDE and KGNOME?"

never! how would application writers decide what the first letter of their program will be? it would be chaos!

Competition and Cooperation (5, Insightful)

pyrrho (167252) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028952)

People forget, RMS is not for competition. Take for example Xemacs, he does not see this as driving improvments in Emacs or vice versa, but as a waste of effort.

In fact, this makes a great deal of sense. The benefit of competition in capitalistic based development comes from the fact that things are thrown together to a schedule, things are sold based on delivering the result at a certain date. This leads to rapid development, but also compromise. The competition between products is meant to compensate for that fact, and largely does (if a monopoly doesn't form).

In the case of open software, programmers tend to do things the way they would like them. Bad designs made this way (as in, you wanted the wrong thing) die out under their own weight. But if you have two products competing that both have coherent designs (empirically speaking: they survive to provide their initial versions and are actually used significantly), and they are open source, you might just be wasting effort by no cooperating. The reason: since the source is available, if the product is missing something, and it's design is strong enough to support expansion, you don't have to "defeat" it just to add the feature you feel is missing, instead you simply add the feature.

The story is simply based on the common knowledge of RMS emnity toward KDE. But suprise!, RMS really did mean it when he said he didn't like KDE because of Qt's license. That's been fixed. RMS thus wants to see the stuff made in common. He's a very consistent fellow.

People with strong principles can be difficult, because their principles can not be exactly the same as yours. But they are also very valuable. And if they are CONISTENT, and their values don't change (for example, when it's time to line their pocket or get recognition), they are invaluable.

Invaluable? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028976)

As in "useful"?

People who can be counted on to react a certain way are invaluable to those of us who seek to exploit them.

Might be a good idea (5, Insightful)

koh (124962) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028965)

Flamewars like the Gnome/KDE one have always been a side-effect on free projects that have the same final purpose (and on free projects in general ;), but it's true that the rivality between developpers of such important components has to disappear. The idea is good, and given its originator it may have a considerable impact on future GUI development aims.

But I'm not quite sure if a compatible theme engine is the way to go... Many people still consider themed desktops as a waste of time and space, and sometimes you can find really awful things on themes.org ;)

Another direction may be the component object model itself. There has been, IIRC, at least one attempt to start an uniform interface between ORBIT and the KDE object model, and others may be under way.

IMHO, this would be a much better challenge for Gnome/KDE integrators, and provide a broader signal to the GUI community.

Microsoft has made COM first, then made XP skinnable. Of course, the Linux themes.org effect was not present then (IIRC), and maybe it was sheer luck. It worked for them anyway.

But I'll sure fancy some skinnable icons while drag/dropping objects between Gnome and KDE apps :]

Re:Might be a good idea (1)

109 97 116 116 (191581) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029023)

"...and sometimes you can find really awful things on themes.org..."

Yeah, like themes.org's new "theme" (web layout sucks) :o)

Marbles? Fetch?

**Distinctive pump shotgun sound** KBLAM!!

Re:Might be a good idea (2)

forgoil (104808) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029066)

Flame wars can sometimes be pretty good. Forces people to have to explain what they mean etc, which is good. Just go find an article with Linus and see what he has to say. I can't remember it correctly, but if I remember correctly he was pretty stern and didn't accept anything without a good explaination.

So disagreeing can be very good (as long as personal feelings aren't involved. That is never good), but getting two products might not...

Yay! (3, Interesting)

Frag-A-Muffin (5490) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028978)

This is good news! What's next? An abstraction of the widget sets so that programmers can code to a neutral API that can be deployed on both GTK and QT (Or Gnome and KDE) at once?!?! When are we going to see that? :)

This is VERY IMPORTANT.... (2)

CDWert (450988) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028981)

This is probably the most singular unifying architechture change that will propel Linux to the top of all the markets, server, desktop, and embedded.

YEAH RIGHT !

Ok, Im suprised RMS said something without demanding, frothing, or berating. But in the whole scheme of things is this really worth the bits its typed with ?

Some architechtural changes in the next version of each twoard additional compatility would be nice. But aside from that they are different systems, written by different people, with different needs and different goals, as well as different philosiphys on how to achieve what they want. To this end I dont really see what good compatible themes are gonna do for the rest of the projects...

While at it why don't they combine Vi and Emacs? (0, Troll)

2000 Britneys (549923) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028986)

Huh? anybody?

Re:While at it why don't they combine Vi and Emacs (1)

Meech (166762) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029123)

This is like saying combine judaism and islam.


Re:While at it why don't they combine Vi and Emacs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029127)

One word: viper.
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/public/COMP/info/vipe r/ viper_3.html

Themes????? (1, Troll)

joestar (225875) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028989)

I'm amazed that RMS can honestly think that unifying themes under GNOME and KDE is a need. Users like diversity although it happens that somebody can think that Linux needs Windows or Mac uniformity (which is just what Microsoft & Apple decided for their users, not the users request). So what's the point in unifying themes? Well.. what do users need? Applications. Want to program a Linux app? Okay... do you use Qt? Do you use kdelibs? do you use Gtk+? or Gnome-libs? Or a scripting language? or X11? I mean, first we have to say officially, well, the _LSB_ has to decide:

- either KDE or GNOME or any other graphical environment is Linux default
- or KDE *and* GNOME and maybe others are the default
- or use X11

Users wants GRAPHICAL APPLICATIONS, so PLEASE release SPECS and STANDARDS so programmers, and eventually software companies can write Linux apps. This is a real issue, but please do not whine at desktop appearance, the need is in standardization, even if we have to standardize TWO graphical environments because Miguel De Icaza and Richard Stallman once thought it was a better idea to start a new project and fight KDE instead of trying to arrange things first or push all the energy in a Qt replacement (rembember harmony?). Well, I'm litteraly stressed by such info. Sorry for the tone of my message.

That depends on the user, (1)

fr2ty (557571) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028994)


That depends on the user.
I experience GNU/Linux users as being very picky.

But from a missionary and/or business viewpoint:
Visually unifying communication to a broad user base.
That's good.
Add a compatible set of window bahaviour
and Joe User can be told where to click what.

But not for my desktop. I am too picky.

--
$ live'dream'

Menus, Drag and Drop and Clipboards as well PLEASE (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3028997)

Don't think there is any reason whatsoever now to have separate menus for gnome and kde, as they both can see each other menus and frankly I don see why I have to look for an app in two places. Mandrake tries to unify them but it gets its knickers in a twist when you install a non-mandrake app.
Cipboard sharing and drag and drop could really unify both desktops if they manage some kind of object bridge.

Theme is just the very first step (2, Insightful)

AtomicBomb (173897) | more than 12 years ago | (#3028999)

Starting with something simpler, eg theme, is a reasonable idea to me. Believe it or not, trivia like why paste is Ctrl-V in one program but Ctrl-Y in another have stopped many people from migrating away from Windows.

But, in the longer term, they really need to enable the basic components to talk to each other. Clipboard is an obvious target. Linux won't boom on desktop before something equivalent to OLE has been fully implemented and *widely* accepted by all the different camps involved.

Re:Theme is just the very first step (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029098)

I agree with you, there are lots of issues which should be worked on first before going for a common skin, and all of them have to do with the non existend application interoperability between Gnome and KDE:

a) Make drag and drop compatible
b) Make Bonobo and KParts compatible
c) Make the clipboard compatible (for gods sake this is hilarious the Mac had a clipboard in 82 which worked between all apps)
d) Make the document models compatible, no user would accept the current status if he comes from Windows or Mac!
d) Norm the basic command shortcuts!

And then maybe a common look and feel, which most users even would care about since they are already used to skins in every second app!

The way it currently is there is no way to get a user to the Linux Desktop until you force him to.
(Do the GNome KDE developers even talk to each other?)

sweet (1)

DeadPrez (129998) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029013)

What a brilliant and obvious idea!! Kudos!

The only thing that could stop this no-brainer idea is religious zealotry.

Doh.

Licences... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029024)

I would love see him address the issues that revolves around licenses. I have developed software under BSD licenses while trying to figure out how to use GPL-compatible software. It would be much simplier if RMS could address this in the next gpl revision...

Slashdot in the future! Additions welcome! (-1)

Serial Troller (556155) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029027)

  • 2002. Slashdot publishes 1,000,000th rumor passed off as actual story. The story generates 480 comments, 263 of which agree with the article, and 107 of which point out it's a rumor and are modded down as redundant. The remaining comments are all "first posts."
  • 2002. CmdrTaco married.
  • 2002. Slashdot parent corporation VA Research^W Linux^W Software stock worth 35 cents. Rumors that AOL, Microsoft, or even Jimmy the hobo who lives under the Longfellow Bridge may buy it.
  • 2003. VA Software bought by Microsoft for a cup of coffee and a donut. All Microsoft-critical articles mysteriously disappear from Slashdot. Bill Gates as Borg logo replaced with Bill Gates as God.
  • 2004. CmdrTaco loses virginity.
  • 2004. The WIPO Troll returns again, showering Slashdot in 45,000 copies of the same post: "Lick my crotch hairs." Slashdot, despite running on 18 redundant IIS/8.0 servers, buckles under the load. The term "Slashdotted" is replaced with "WIPO-Trolled."
  • 2004. Slashdot officially shut down. Millions of screaming, unwashed geeks invade Redmond campus and lynch Bill Gates.
  • 2005. Linus Torvalds and Anal Cox found dead along with six penguins, a tub of crisco and several used condoms.
  • 2005. CmdrTaco rumored to have had sex again.
  • 2006. CowboiKneel found dead in hotel room with 56 pizza boxes covering his bloated corpse. Three suffocated gay prostitutes are extracted from beneath his body as police remove it with a backhoe.
  • 2007. CmdrTaco actually has sex again.
  • 2007. BSD is still officially "dying." No word on when its demise will take place.
  • 2007. CmdrTaco starts new weblog to replace Slashdot, creatively named Dotslash. Remainder of Linux users flock to the site and immediate WIPO-Troll it out of existence.
  • 2008. CmdrTaco has sex with his wife for the first time.

Not just for widget themes! (1)

Dasher42 (514179) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029028)

I also believe that these two desktop projects could do more than the distros to create a clean, consistent method of program installation for Linux. I would like to see the "app-wrapper" style become the norm. Menu conversion hacks just aren't enough!

Layering GTK and QT! (1)

oSphinx (300959) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029030)

Why not layer the QT API on top of GTK? (QTK)

Despite of what many of you may think this is not a bad thing(TM). Really, on Windows, QT is layered on top of the Win32 API. Heck, for all platforms (UNIX excluded) QT is layered on top of the native widget API, so why not do the same for Unix!

See also: initial QTK ponderings [gnome.org]

Woohoo! (0)

CheezyD (548557) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029152)

Same taste, twice the bloat! Actually, 3 times. KDE on top of Qt on top of GTK on top of X. If that happens, I'll go back to AfterStep or Fvwm. Interoperability is the key. As others have mentioned before, start with fixing the damn clipboard, and things will progress from there. A unified config file format wouldn't hurt either.

Progress (2, Insightful)

grrae (558854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029034)

Here, in a quote from This Letter [gnome.org] , RMS says,

"...The ill feelings that linger between GNOME developers and KDE developers are not good for the community, and it is very useful to help calm the antagonism."

Let's here from a few who are (accepted to be) wiser than ourselves:

"Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people." -George Bernard Shaw (emphasis, mine!)

"Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress." -Mahatma Gandhi

Well... (4, Interesting)

Microlith (54737) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029041)

I don't know about anyone else, but I always thought it was funny how the Open Source community yelled about "standards," yet we have so many damn standards that there aren't any.

Now that license issues are cleared up, RMS has a chance and he's gonna take it. Eliminate two, create one. This isn't a bad thing, since you STILL have the source.

We have options for customization, and a lot of freedom, but what we lack is any real consolidation (IE eliminating redundant standards), thus creating a plethora of pitfalls for software developers.

This is one thing I think the Linux Standards Base should cover. More than just one boring, rather useless "base," it should cover MANY bases, and specify standard APIs, installations, and specifications for systems/software. Hell make Linux Standard Base certification like that damn Made for Windows XX logo.

Theory:

LSB defines a desktop base, a server base, and an embedded base.

On the desktop base you have modules (not necessarily compatible), say Gaming Module which includes all necessary packages and auto-detection and config info, a Network client module that automatically loads remote config utilities and any necessary client software, and a workstation module that adds it's required things.

Same for server and embedded.

Also have the LSB supply standard definitions for the GUI APIs. Standard Themes, fonts, what have you.

If you can build a solid foundation for your system and get it under control (community control, it's still ours), then you'll attract users. I think that's a bit of what RMS is trying to do here.

About time (1)

red-tail-hawk (558376) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029054)

Though I don't care at the moment, gonna buy an OS X machine next time around. The new G4 imac looks snazzy, plus OS X is exactly what the linux community was trying to achieve. open source is good, but it worked against itself with repect to a lack of centralized code base. OS X is a great blend between both open and closed source

Re:About time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029097)

yep. i just ordered a G4 powerbook today. i run a couple of linux boxes on my home LAN for server duty, i.e. smtp, dns, apache. but i simply cannot get day to day work done in GNOME and KDE, so i've been relying on a win2k box. well i'm fed up with microsoft's licensing antics, security problems, spyware, etc. when my G4 arrives i'll give win2k the last three fingered salute and let 'format c:' rip.

Menubar (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029070)

While we're talking about having a uniform UI... I would really like to have a Macintosh-style menubar! ie, have one menubar at the top of the screen that changes its contents depending on what application is in focus. Surely with all their sophistication (and excessive effort placed on "skinnable interfaces"!), one or both of GNOME or KDE ought to be able to deliver this simple request!

Sad News - Goatse.cx guy DEAD (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029075)

I just heard the sad news on BBC radio. Web entreprenuer/pioneer goatse.cx guy was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never admired his work [goatse.cx] , you can appreciate what he did for the 'last frontier' of the internet.

Reports are that he died from complications resulting from "Richard Stallman On KDE/GNOME Cooperation". Truly a internet icon. He will be missed :(

Confronting the KDE propaganda machine (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029084)

Confronting the KDE propaganda machine.

The KDE project is famous for its funded and organised trolling of weblogs and message board associated with Linux and Free software/open source. Outrageous newbie impressing claims are made for the software and huge quanities of FUD are spread to destroy competitors. If this sounds familiar, then you are correct, most of these tactics were lifted straight from Microsoft's arsenal of dirty tricks. The Windows look and feel is not the only thing the KDE project has copied! In this short article I will address some of the lies and FUD spread by the KDE trolling teams. It is my hope that this, in some small way, will redress the balance and re-introduce two things almost eradicated by the KDE project: Honesty and facts.

  • Myth #1 - KDE is more integrated than GNOME

    The oft-heard cry of the noisiest KDE advocates. No explanation is given, the reader is expected to simply grok the wholesomeness of KDE and the lack of this mystical quality in GNOME. It is nonsense of course. Neither desktop is particularly "integrated" compared to Windows XP, and certainly not compared any version of the Apple Mac. Whatever "integrated" actually means.

  • Myth #2 - KDE is easier to use

    Again, such nebulous arguments are never explained, and the reader is expected to simply understand the truth of the zealots statement. Both KDE and GNOME have user-interface irritations (all systems do), but "ease of use" is not a simple thing to measure. KDE has never been subjected to detailed user testing, unlike GNOME [gnome.org] , and the claims of user-friendliness are from crazed supporters and not average users. Furthermore, the KDE faithful rarely look beyond simple-minded copying of Windows, and forget that administering a desktop system is just as important as having widgets in the correct place on the toolbar. For example: What about application installation and removal? GNOME has the excellent RedCarpet by Ximian [ximian.com] , which makes the installation, removal and updating of applications trivial. KDE users are expected to fend for themselves with brutal command line driven systems. GNOME also has the excellent Ximian setup tools to handle various tricky cross-platform and potentially risky system configuration operations. KDE offers none of this, only a few small half-assed Linux-only tools, which make no attempt at check-pointing to return to known working configurations.

  • Myth #3 - KDE is more popular

    In what sense? Arguably more people use KDE, but it is a close run thing. Most KDE zealots use the results of online polls as proof of their superior userbase - which is, quite frankly, complete and utter nonsense. Online polls are the joke of the century; it doesn't even require a motivated script kiddie to render then worthless. A single post alerting the faithful on a zealot-ridden site can skew the result so much it makes American presidential elections look fair and well organised. Popularity is also difficult to measure when *both* GNOME and KDE are frequently installed on the same system. The systems can co-exist and even run at the same time, except for certain applications such as panels. Many KDE users actually run GNOME applications for their superior features and stability, not realising that by doing so they are barely running KDE at all.

    One of the few solid measures of popularity is commercial use of a desktop, and here, GNOME is far ahead with both Hewlett Packard and Sun committing to using GNOME as the desktop for their Unix systems. This also ties in with the previously mentioned ease of use. Sun's major contribution to the GNOME project is in the areas of user/developer documentation, testing, accessiblity and user-testing. Three of the less glamourous parts of desktop development. The arrival of the GNOME 2.x series will see these contributions reach fruitition and allow GNOME to make a quantum leap ahead of KDE in most of the basic computer/user issues.

  • Myth #4 - Konqueror is the best Linux browser

    Oh for a penny every time this lie is told in any KDE story! Konqueror not a bad piece of software. It's authors deserve praise for the work done on it. However, the sheer amount of orgasmic gushing by the KDE faithful is completely out of proportion to its actual quality. It is quite unreliable and even simple standards compliant pages can crash it quite comprehensively. It is also lax in its support of basic web standards compared to either Mozilla or Opera. It is also extremely slow - much slower than the latest incarnations of the GNOME Nautilus filemanager/browser (a target of much KDE FUD during its development).

  • Myth #5 - KDE applications are better/more advanced than GNOME ones due to the ease of developing in C++ using the Qt toolkit

    See also: Qt/TrollTech. This is the most common wail heard by KDE developers, and yet it is easily disproved by looking at the actual applications for GNOME/GTK and KDE/Qt. KDE applications often have larger version numbers than GNOME ones... an old trick played by commerical software developers. Most KDE apps seem to jump for 1.x releases long before they are ready - KOffice being the best example. None of the components in Koffice are worthy of a 1.0 release, let alone 1.1 or 1.2.

    GNOME applications get much more testing in their 0.x stages and despite shorter development phases they mature and reach stable featureful release states much more quickly. Some examples of this are: the superb Evolution (groupware/email), Gnumeric (spreadsheet), Pan (newsreader), The GIMP (image manipulation), Abiword (word processing), RedCarpet, X-Chat (IRC client), XMMS (media player), Galeon (web browser), and for developers: Glade and Anjuta. All of these packages ooze quality, and far outclass their KDE counterparts. It is no understatement to say that GNOME is at least 18 months ahead of KDE in applications, and pulling still further ahead.

    It's not only in the area of user applications that GNOME is vastly more advanced. With the forthcoming 2.x release, a number of impressive behind the scenes technologies will finally mature: component technology (bonobo), media (Gstreamer), internationalisation (pango). As a developement platform, GNOME 2.x is, conservatively, 2-3 years ahead of KDE. And what is more, because it is not tied to a lowest common denominator cross-platform bloat-fest like the Qt toolkit, the lead (as with applications) can only increase further.

    It is also worth noting that GNOME also develops code for use outside the project (see the XML libraries as one example) - the KDE project rarely (if ever) engages in this kind of work. KDE developers ensure that all software must link with Qt, and hence tie it closely with the Qt toolkit preventing re-use and enhancing the value of TrollTech intellectual property.


    Yet despite all this, we are still regularly fed the lie that Qt and C++ makes application and desktop development easier. Judge for yourself.

  • Myth #6 - KDE is faster and takes less memory than GNOME

    KDE is written in C++. While this is not necessarily a problem, it can be when Visual Basic reject programmers (which the KDE project is overrun with) do not know enough to avoid important pitfalls that plague C++ software projects. Stupid use of autoincrementing operators and iteration with C++ objects; and masses of unnecessary allocations and deallocations of memory are two of the most common. KDE suffers badly from both problems.

    Perhaps the most cretinous of all problems is blaming the extremely slow startup times of KDE apps on GCC. The GNOME 1.x releases were hardly svelt (2.x fixes many of these issues), but GNOME is a fashion cat-walk superwaif when compared to KDE's 500lb fat-momma cheese-burger scoffing trailer trash. One need only look at the recent fuss over ugly KDE hacks (such as prelinking) used to bandage up the design and coding flaws in the decrepit KDE architecture to see the truth.

  • Myth #7 - GNOME development is slower. KDE releases faster.

    Fundamental misunderstanding. The KDE project releases as one big lump of code due to its use of C++ and the many problems this causes with libraries. The project bumps the version number of the entire KDE system for the smallest modifications. GNOME, on the other hand is componentized and each component releases on a (almost) separate schedule, bumping it's own version number but not the main GNOME version (1.4, for example). Occasional releases of the entire GNOME system happen, and that's when the GNOME version number is bumped (currently it is at 1.4). To see this in action, use RedCarpet and you will regular updates to GNOME components. GNOME development is not slower, it is in fact faster and more advanced. Lamers and newbies, however, fail to understand the advantages of this method and just see KDE 1.1.1 followed a few weeks later by KDE 1.1.2. Wow! KDE roolz.

  • Myth #8 - The Qt toolkit is cross-platform and yet takes advantage of each individual platform

    The Qt toolkit (the software at the heart of KDE) is supposedly a cross-platform toolkit allowing the lucky developer the opportunity to write Windows/Linux/Mac software all at once. And yet, among the magical mythical claims made, the most nonsensical is that it makes applications which take advantage of the distinct features of the different platforms. This is of course, nonsense. Qt is a bloated, slow layer that is slapped over a native system's APIs in an attempt to make all the systems look alike. It no more takes advantage of Linux/Windows/Mac than Java does - in fact it offers many of the disadvantages of Java with few of the advantages. If you have ever wondered why the KDE desktop looks so much like Windows... you need look no further than Qt. Qt is a lowest common denominator toolkit, and that LCD is Windows - Trolltech's, the creator of Qt, real market.
  • Myth #9 - TrollTech is a friend of Free software

    To Be Written. Ideas: Qt started out as non-Free. KDE developers knew this violated the GPL, didn't care, stole others' GPL code by porting it to link (in violation of the license) with Qt and are therefore untrustworthy. KDE core developers work for TrollTech. Expensive per developer licensing for writing closed-source with Qt, and hence KDE. Trolltech only moved towards the GPL because of the success of GNOME. Labyrinthine licensing nightmare (3 licenses to deal with). Gradual migration of features belonging in KDE into Qt (and so into TrollTech's IP portfolio), allowing easy porting of apps to the revenue generating Windows world (see TheKompany for a perfect example), thereby making KDE an irrelevant launcher of Qt applications. Claims made that Qt is GPL, while true, hide the real truth. There cannot be a real fork of Qt for the KDE project: Core developers work for Trolltech; any fork would need to be full GPL and hence ban any closed-source apps from KDE altogether (all KDE apps must link with Qt); Any commerical licensees of Qt (non-GPL) would and could only follow TrollTech. KDE is stitched up good and proper.

  • Myth #10 - KDE is more than attractive, but GNOME/GTK is ugly

    To be Written. Ideas: Mosfet liquid theme is an ugly and unstable hack. GNOME GTk icons are better thought-out and of a far higher quality than the poorly drawn and cartoonish and confusing KDE ones. Qt is basically a Windows-look on a Unix platform.

Re:Confronting the KDE propaganda machine (1)

ambrosius27 (251484) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029130)

dude, the spirit of the whole RMS post is *COOPERATION*. I don't think your post is getting with the program, so to speak. ;-) By the way, I'm a GNOME supporter.

open themeing standards (1)

-ryan (115102) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029101)

I know that there are some themeing standards out there. WindowBlinds uses one of them. It would be nice if I could use all of the beautiful themes that exist for Windows on my Linux box. Sadly, there are more artists amongst the Windows crowd than the Linux crowed. Granted, tigert, raster, and star88, all rock.

Anyway, I'd just like to say that this has been a long time comin. I have no freaking idea why my WM, and the different GUI toolkits all can't get along Look and Feel wise. If Unix (outside of OSX) is to ever be a desktop competitor, this is one component of the UI equation that must be solved.

-ryan

An XML Theme Engine (1)

CurtisLeeFulton (134370) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029112)

Maybe I should write an XML theme engine that can generate themes for KDE, GTK, Mozilla, XMMS skins etc. Some sort modular library.

Competition.. uhu.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029113)

I'll say this just because it needs to be said.

I couldn't care less what everyone tends to be saying about competition being a "good thing". Linux does not stand a chance competing on the desktop simply because of KDE and Gnome fighting over the tiny share of Linux desktops. Application developers have to chose, and as such it's just too much of a pain to develop and/or port any of the apps Linux needs to succeed.

I wish they would grow up. See the greater good. Stop behaving like children. Whatever. It's stupid. Gnome and KDE are both fine, they're just not quite "there" yet. Know what? They'll never be. They will keep playing catch-up with Windows, and never go beyond it. Spew technical facts all you like, they are both half assed attempts at being what the previous version of Windows was.

Oh well. It'll never happen, and we'll keep posting every little security flaw in Windows trying to convince ourselves of that Linux is at least doing well on servers. Oh my. Yes, it is, and Microsoft is managing to keep companies stuck with using Windows on their servers simply because they control the desktop.

Bah.

again? (1, Offtopic)

Ur@eus (148802) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029114)

Hmm, is it my destiny to put RMS on Slashdot each time I mail to the gnome-foundation list?

Why RMS applied to GNOME board (4, Interesting)

sl956 (200477) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029126)

Back in November 2001, when RMS was candidate to the GNOME Board of Directors, there was a discussion [slashdot.org] on /. about the reasons why he applied.
Just a couple days before, he had said during a conference in Paris that his primary reason to apply to the board was to support cooperation between GNOME and KDE (see my post [slashdot.org] ), eventhough it wasn't clearly stated in his answers [newsforge.com] to the GNOME board candidacy questionnaire.
I'm really happy to see that it was not only electoral bulls**t.
Maybe he is the last person you could have think of for such a task (especially knowing his position toward the KDE team in the old days of the QPL), but here he comes with this simple (as in not heavily political) practical (as in usefull) first step... so let's try !

Enlightenment? (1)

Trevelyan (535381) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029132)

You can run apps from both KDE and Gnome
and it looks real perdy. (i run a lot of epplets too =)

I use a lot of apps from kde (in my E desktop) KDE has so many apps and functions i think it has to take the crown from emacs*
Gnome i dont use, but i still have some gtk apps, although not many the gnome ppl. (eg xchat)

-Trevelyan

*emacs is my os, linux just does the i/o
will become KDE is my os, linux just does the i/o

Pička (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3029148)



Pika je prekrasan dio tijela, finta je u djeliminom brijanju. Ako je zarasla, izgleda odvratno, a nije fina ni kad je skroz elava. Ja volim lizati finu, istu, djelimino obrijanu piku.

Kurac, pika, govno, sisa!

Kurac, pika, govno, sisa!

Kurac, pika, govno, sisa!

Kurac, pika, govno, sisa!

Auto-magically scaling titlebars (2)

doorbot.com (184378) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029151)

Since we're ushering this new era of KDE/Gnome friendliness, I have one simple request...

Can one (or both) of these two desktops allow me to scale the title bar on the windows? I can change all of the other fonts to a bigger size, but when I change the title bar font it just gets cut off vertically. Sorry, but some of us try to run high resolutions on smaller monitors.

By the way, here's cool theme from KDE-Look.org (one of the few ones that didn't rip off some pre-existing OS (majority were XP/MacOS X)):
Gorilla @ KDE-Look.org [kde-look.org] (preview [kde-look.org] )

Notice how small the title bar font is... just think the joy you could bring to small children if that scaled with the font size! It would be perfect on this theme...

OMG! Hell did freeze over! (4, Funny)

Chanc_Gorkon (94133) | more than 12 years ago | (#3029154)

Debian is close to releasing and they are talking about a unified Linux desktop theme. Hell most have frozen over or this is a sign of the apocalypse!
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