Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Sun Increases Commitment to GNOME

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the now-thats-a-lot-of-commitment dept.

GNOME 312

Ur@eus writes "Mark McLoughlin of Sun mailed the gnome-hackers mailing-list today announcing the deal between Sun, Ximian and Wipro. The deal means that Wipro will assign up to 50 people to work on GNOME including hackers, QA people, documenters and more. These hackers come in addition to the Sun hackers already working on GNOME at their Desktop Division in Ireland. The official announcement from Sun will come in a few days."

cancel ×

312 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Something interesting about gnome... (-1, Flamebait)

samrolken (246301) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060650)

goto http://www.morons.org/ !!! Check it out today.

Who is Sam Sloan? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060831)

Yep.

I DO IT WRONG!!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060651)

I do it wrong

Laying here in the shadows of my room, I squint up at my love. My Ms. Portman. I am sore and tired after fucking her for eight solid hours. My chapped and aching dick is soaking in grits to relieve the pain. She gets on her knees and starts lapping the grits up out of the bowl. She places her beautiful hands on my penis and starts to lick the grits off my achy piece.
Massaging my nutsack she....

WAIT, I DO IT WRONG!!!!

Yanking my dick out of her mouth I throw her to the ground and shove it in to her gaping freshly fisted ass. [goatse.cx]

"OH BIG ASS SPORK!! Fuck my ass, fuck my ass good. DEEPER, my stallion, deeper!! Make a Beowulf cluster of sperm on my back!!"

"Imagine a Beowulf cluster of this baby!"

I DO IT WRONG!!!!

I continue to hump her alabaster form. Glistening with beads of sweat, she bites her lip in delight as I tear her ass open with my engorged dick.

"Queen Amidala!!" I shreik as I near climax.

She looks up at me and screams, "You are so alive in me, unlike *BSD or VA Software!!! Fill me with seed!! Yes, Yes, Yess!!!!"

"For me you are calling, hhhmmm?"

"YODA?!? What the fuck, can't you see I am using the force here?"

He savagely kicks my Natalie aside, he pulls out his large green penis and impales me...

I DO IT WRONG!!

All your sporkz are belong to the dead homiez!!

This troll was reposted from the Troll Library [slashdot.org] without permission of the original author. If you object to this post, or if you wish to add your troll to the Troll Library, please reply to this message.

First Post? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060652)

First Post?

FIRST POSTS SUCK (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060656)

AND SO DO YOU

fp!! fp!! LunchLady sucks ass! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060657)

Could it be? a FP!! YES! Eat it you shit Spork!

Does this mean... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060661)

we're going to get a "Wipro Troll" ?

all I go to say about this (1, Interesting)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060662)

Cool.......soon, Gnome will be the best DTE around, undisputed. Hell right now, Gnome seems to have cleaner interface than KDE.

one of the things about KDE is that they have all these cool technologies, but they are not implimented by any one...what good is it if it is not used?

Re:all I go to say about this (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060669)

>"what good is it if it is not used?"

This is exactly the problem with Linux in general.

Re:all I go to say about this (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060938)

> but they are not implimented by any one...what good is it if it is not used?

Uh, most KDE apps automatically use them. It's interesting how KDE can be so much better than GNOME considering that they don't have the support of a major corporation like Sun.

Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Funny)

oooooops (32349) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060671)

Okay, let me be sure I understand this - Miguel and his gnomies wanna base GNOME on MONO which is an open source implementation of .NET - which was developed to compete with Sun's Java - and Sun's throwing developers at this? No wonder why they are hurting so bad right now at Sun - wake up and smell the java Sun...

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060683)

Damn, You beat me to the post :)

Seriously tho, what the hell are they thinking?
Does this mean they have given up? You'd think they'd be making press announcements about KDE becoming the official desktop after Miguel's comments.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060720)

You'd think they'd be making press announcements about KDE becoming the official desktop after Miguel's comments.

Yeah, you KDEers wish.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Insightful)

JanneM (7445) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060695)

Ummm, no. Gnome isn't, and will never be "based on mono". Mono may become just another way to develop gnome apps, along with C/C++, Perl, Python and so on.

/Janne

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060699)

And Java is not even in the list

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Informative)

Spirilis (3338) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060713)

Except for the java-gnome project java-gnome.sourceforge.net [sourceforge.net]
which, unfortunately, I had nil luck compiling (just the java-gtk part) on my Debian 2.2 system the other day...
but still, I would LOVE to be able to write GTK/GNOME apps in Java :-)

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Interesting)

restive (542491) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060697)

Good point.
On the other hand, Sun doesn't always think through their decisions and announcements, and later changes their minds. However, they were planning on releasing Solaris 9 with GNOME originally. Now, it looks like it will be bundled in a later release of the OS.

What they're really trying to do is give people a classier environment than CDE bundled with the OS. At least that's my opinion. If the performance of GNOME/Solaris ever equals GNOME/Linux, I'll be surprised.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Interesting)

allenw (33234) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060749)

IIRC, Sun committed to GNOME 2.0 shipping with Solaris. Since Solaris 9's gate is going to be closing in a few weeks, GNOME 2.0 won't be ready by then to actually integrate, test, and ship with the first cut of Solaris 9.

[Which illustrates a difference between open and closed source: with closed source, you actually have a date that you have to meet and produce a product. To make that date, sometimes you have to cut features/additions/etc.]

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Informative)

tve (95573) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060772)

[Which illustrates a difference between open and closed source: with closed source, you actually have a date that you have to meet and produce a product. To make that date, sometimes you have to cut features/additions/etc.]

No, which illustrates the difference between commercial and non-commercial software. Commercial software has deadlines, because commercial software needs to make money before the company producing it goes out of business. Non-commercial software doesn't have this problem and therefore may not have deadlines (it may have deadlines due to other reasons though).

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Funny)

dhogaza (64507) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060939)

MS has been notorious for late delivery (the NT replacement of the DOS Windows derivatives was originally scheduled for what, 1999? 2001, that's for sure).

Therefore WinXP must be 1) open source and 2) non-commercial.

Very cool ...

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (5, Insightful)

luge (4808) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060793)

If the performance of GNOME/Solaris ever equals GNOME/Linux, I'll be surprised.
Part of the Sun work will involve serious performance analysis and work. Hopefully this will benefit both GNOME/Linux and GNOME/Solaris, but obviously it'll be focused on GNOME/Solaris, and should make GNOME/Solaris a lot snappier.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (3, Informative)

Ewan (5533) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060820)

Interestingly, while Sun are funding a lot of Gnome development, IBM have already shipped AIX5L with both Gnome and KDE available alongside CDE as the desktop.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060726)

I do not think you have understood my position when it comes to Mono and GNOME yet. There is a detailed explanation about this here: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/2002- February/msg00031.html

The short version of this is:

* I do not have any maintainership control over any piece of GNOME anymore.

* I like everyone else have an opinion on how GNOME would benefit the most.

* People will be free to use the tools the Mono project produces or not use them.

* Mono will integrate with GNOME right away, just like say, Java/GNOME is integrated with GNOME right away.

* So I believe that building apps with Mono will be a nice experience for people in the GNOME world.

I like different technologies from different companies. I like the .NET Framework a lot more than I like the Java platform, but that is my personal choice; And I do like the UltraSparc cpu over any other cpu, and I still love the fact that my IBM laptop is so cheap ;-)

So there is a lot of love for different companies and technologies. There are choices for everyone to pick from.

Miguel.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (3, Funny)

flacco (324089) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060778)

So there is a lot of love for different companies and technologies.

It's that rough anal sex from Microsoft I could do without.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (0)

real_b0fh (557599) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060784)

not me. I just hope that GNOME will still be what it its right now, without MONO dependencies. If not, think i'll have to stick with an old version, which will not be a real pain, since i'm still using 1.2.1 ;-) and i'm quite happy with it.

MONO/.NET tech seems to be overkill to me, especially on the kind of hardware I use atm.

What everyone really wants to know is... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060790)

...are you gay?

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (5, Insightful)

jsse (254124) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060806)

I like different technologies from different companies. I like the .NET Framework a lot more than I like the Java platform, but that is my personal choice; And I do like the UltraSparc cpu over any other cpu, and I still love the fact that my IBM laptop is so cheap ;-)

Oh I love Java platform a lot a lot more than .NET Framework, get me my flamethrower!!...but wait, isn't that freedom of choice we are long for?

Hat off to Gnome dudes! Way to go man!

If I understand you correctly (1)

Latent Heat (558884) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060830)

GNOME will always be GNOME, and while you are creating a CLR/Mono binding to it, and if CLR/Mono runs contrary to a person's aesthetic sensibilities, they can still program GNOME in good old ANSI C, now and in the forseeable future.

By the way, I have looked at the Mono web site, and as a Windows developer, I am not quite sure what I have to download in what order to get the Mono C# and class libraries going, but I will keep checking the site as things develop.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2, Interesting)

bhsx (458600) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060834)

I'm sure you've got better things to do than explain a month-old 'out of context' quote to everyone, but I really appreciated seeing you jump into the fray, as always. I have a question for you that has nothing to do with Mono... Have you tried the Rox file-manager/desktop? What are your impressions? I've just started using it, and love the direction it's going. Do you think we might see a 'gnome-lite' ditching some of the heavies like Nautilus for Rox or equivelent? I know I can obviously do this on my own without you; but I'm really curious what your impression of Rox is. I run a tiny little project we've dubbed The Mandrake Mosix Terminal Server Project [dynu.com] and I'm concidering ditching GNOME and KDE for the fast-as-hell Rox with sawfish/pygtk. Your impressions/comments are highly anticipated. Thanks.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060747)

OK, but how does this help me build a better mousetrap?

I thought so.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060755)

Confronting the KDE propaganda machine.

The KDE project is famous for its funded and organised trolling of weblogs and message board associated with Linux and Free software/open source. Outrageous newbie impressing claims are made for the software and huge quanities of FUD are spread to destroy competitors. If this sounds familiar, then you are correct, most of these tactics were lifted straight from Microsoft's arsenal of dirty tricks. The Windows look and feel is not the only thing the KDE project has copied! In this short article I will address some of the lies and FUD spread by the KDE trolling teams. It is my hope that this, in some small way, will redress the balance and re-introduce two things almost eradicated by the KDE project: Honesty and facts.

  • Myth #1 - KDE is more integrated than GNOME

    The oft-heard cry of the noisiest KDE advocates. No explanation is given, the reader is expected to simply grok the wholesomeness of KDE and the lack of this mystical quality in GNOME. It is nonsense of course. Neither desktop is particularly "integrated" compared to Windows XP, and certainly not compared any version of the Apple Mac. Whatever "integrated" actually means.

  • Myth #2 - KDE is easier to use

    Again, such nebulous arguments are never explained, and the reader is expected to simply understand the truth of the zealots statement. Both KDE and GNOME have user-interface irritations (all systems do), but "ease of use" is not a simple thing to measure. KDE has never been subjected to detailed user testing, unlike GNOME [gnome.org] , and the claims of user-friendliness are from crazed supporters and not average users. Furthermore, the KDE faithful rarely look beyond simple-minded copying of Windows, and forget that administering a desktop system is just as important as having widgets in the correct place on the toolbar. For example: What about application installation and removal? GNOME has the excellent RedCarpet by Ximian [ximian.com] , which makes the installation, removal and updating of applications trivial. KDE users are expected to fend for themselves with brutal command line driven systems. GNOME also has the excellent Ximian setup tools to handle various tricky cross-platform and potentially risky system configuration operations. KDE offers none of this, only a few small half-assed Linux-only tools, which make no attempt at check-pointing to return to known working configurations.

  • Myth #3 - KDE is more popular

    In what sense? Arguably more people use KDE, but it is a close run thing. Most KDE zealots use the results of online polls as proof of their superior userbase - which is, quite frankly, complete and utter nonsense. Online polls are the joke of the century; it doesn't even require a motivated script kiddie to render then worthless. A single post alerting the faithful on a zealot-ridden site can skew the result so much it makes American presidential elections look fair and well organised. Popularity is also difficult to measure when *both* GNOME and KDE are frequently installed on the same system. The systems can co-exist and even run at the same time, except for certain applications such as panels. Many KDE users actually run GNOME applications for their superior features and stability, not realising that by doing so they are barely running KDE at all.

    One of the few solid measures of popularity is commercial use of a desktop, and here, GNOME is far ahead with both Hewlett Packard and Sun committing to using GNOME as the desktop for their Unix systems. This also ties in with the previously mentioned ease of use. Sun's major contribution to the GNOME project is in the areas of user/developer documentation, testing, accessiblity and user-testing. Three of the less glamourous parts of desktop development. The arrival of the GNOME 2.x series will see these contributions reach fruitition and allow GNOME to make a quantum leap ahead of KDE in most of the basic computer/user issues.

  • Myth #4 - Konqueror is the best Linux browser

    Oh for a penny every time this lie is told in any KDE story! Konqueror not a bad piece of software. It's authors deserve praise for the work done on it. However, the sheer amount of orgasmic gushing by the KDE faithful is completely out of proportion to its actual quality. It is quite unreliable and even simple standards compliant pages can crash it quite comprehensively. It is also lax in its support of basic web standards compared to either Mozilla or Opera. It is also extremely slow - much slower than the latest incarnations of the GNOME Nautilus filemanager/browser (a target of much KDE FUD during its development).

  • Myth #5 - KDE applications are better/more advanced than GNOME ones due to the ease of developing in C++ using the Qt toolkit

    See also: Qt/TrollTech. This is the most common wail heard by KDE developers, and yet it is easily disproved by looking at the actual applications for GNOME/GTK and KDE/Qt. KDE applications often have larger version numbers than GNOME ones... an old trick played by commerical software developers. Most KDE apps seem to jump for 1.x releases long before they are ready - KOffice being the best example. None of the components in Koffice are worthy of a 1.0 release, let alone 1.1 or 1.2.

    GNOME applications get much more testing in their 0.x stages and despite shorter development phases they mature and reach stable featureful release states much more quickly. Some examples of this are: the superb Evolution (groupware/email), Gnumeric (spreadsheet), Pan (newsreader), The GIMP (image manipulation), Abiword (word processing), RedCarpet, X-Chat (IRC client), XMMS (media player), Galeon (web browser), and for developers: Glade and Anjuta. All of these packages ooze quality, and far outclass their KDE counterparts. It is no understatement to say that GNOME is at least 18 months ahead of KDE in applications, and pulling still further ahead.

    It's not only in the area of user applications that GNOME is vastly more advanced. With the forthcoming 2.x release, a number of impressive behind the scenes technologies will finally mature: component technology (bonobo), media (Gstreamer), internationalisation (pango). As a developement platform, GNOME 2.x is, conservatively, 2-3 years ahead of KDE. And what is more, because it is not tied to a lowest common denominator cross-platform bloat-fest like the Qt toolkit, the lead (as with applications) can only increase further.

    It is also worth noting that GNOME also develops code for use outside the project (see the XML libraries as one example) - the KDE project rarely (if ever) engages in this kind of work. KDE developers ensure that all software must link with Qt, and hence tie it closely with the Qt toolkit preventing re-use and enhancing the value of TrollTech intellectual property.


    Yet despite all this, we are still regularly fed the lie that Qt and C++ makes application and desktop development easier. Judge for yourself.

  • Myth #6 - KDE is faster and takes less memory than GNOME

    KDE is written in C++. While this is not necessarily a problem, it can be when Visual Basic reject programmers (which the KDE project is overrun with) do not know enough to avoid important pitfalls that plague C++ software projects. Stupid use of autoincrementing operators and iteration with C++ objects; and masses of unnecessary allocations and deallocations of memory are two of the most common. KDE suffers badly from both problems.

    Perhaps the most cretinous of all problems is blaming the extremely slow startup times of KDE apps on GCC. The GNOME 1.x releases were hardly svelt (2.x fixes many of these issues), but GNOME is a fashion cat-walk superwaif when compared to KDE's 500lb fat-momma cheese-burger scoffing trailer trash. One need only look at the recent fuss over ugly KDE hacks (such as prelinking) used to bandage up the design and coding flaws in the decrepit KDE architecture to see the truth.

  • Myth #7 - GNOME development is slower. KDE releases faster.

    Fundamental misunderstanding. The KDE project releases as one big lump of code due to its use of C++ and the many problems this causes with libraries. The project bumps the version number of the entire KDE system for the smallest modifications. GNOME, on the other hand is componentized and each component releases on a (almost) separate schedule, bumping it's own version number but not the main GNOME version (1.4, for example). Occasional releases of the entire GNOME system happen, and that's when the GNOME version number is bumped (currently it is at 1.4). To see this in action, use RedCarpet and you will regular updates to GNOME components. GNOME development is not slower, it is in fact faster and more advanced. Lamers and newbies, however, fail to understand the advantages of this method and just see KDE 1.1.1 followed a few weeks later by KDE 1.1.2. Wow! KDE roolz.

  • Myth #8 - The Qt toolkit is cross-platform and yet takes advantage of each individual platform

    The Qt toolkit (the software at the heart of KDE) is supposedly a cross-platform toolkit allowing the lucky developer the opportunity to write Windows/Linux/Mac software all at once. And yet, among the magical mythical claims made, the most nonsensical is that it makes applications which take advantage of the distinct features of the different platforms. This is of course, nonsense. Qt is a bloated, slow layer that is slapped over a native system's APIs in an attempt to make all the systems look alike. It no more takes advantage of Linux/Windows/Mac than Java does - in fact it offers many of the disadvantages of Java with few of the advantages. If you have ever wondered why the KDE desktop looks so much like Windows... you need look no further than Qt. Qt is a lowest common denominator toolkit, and that LCD is Windows - Trolltech's, the creator of Qt, real market.
  • Myth #9 - TrollTech is a friend of Free software

    To Be Written. Ideas: Qt started out as non-Free. KDE developers knew this violated the GPL, didn't care, stole others' GPL code by porting it to link (in violation of the license) with Qt and are therefore untrustworthy. KDE core developers work for TrollTech. Expensive per developer licensing for writing closed-source with Qt, and hence KDE. Trolltech only moved towards the GPL because of the success of GNOME. Labyrinthine licensing nightmare (3 licenses to deal with). Gradual migration of features belonging in KDE into Qt (and so into TrollTech's IP portfolio), allowing easy porting of apps to the revenue generating Windows world (see TheKompany for a perfect example), thereby making KDE an irrelevant launcher of Qt applications. Claims made that Qt is GPL, while true, hide the real truth. There cannot be a real fork of Qt for the KDE project: Core developers work for Trolltech; any fork would need to be full GPL and hence ban any closed-source apps from KDE altogether (all KDE apps must link with Qt); Any commerical licensees of Qt (non-GPL) would and could only follow TrollTech. KDE is stitched up good and proper.

  • Myth #10 - KDE is more than attractive, but GNOME/GTK is ugly

    To be Written. Ideas: Mosfet liquid theme is an ugly and unstable hack. GNOME GTk icons are better thought-out and of a far higher quality than the poorly drawn and cartoonish and confusing KDE ones. Qt is basically a Windows-look on a Unix platform.

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060950)

are you gay? nobody reads -1 posts except for other trolls anyways.

considering that, you are a XIMIAN NIGGER MONKEY&!^@#&*^&*!@^#&*@#

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (2)

HeUnique (187) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060756)

Although I'm on the KDE side - I would like to correct you on this issue:

Miguel has expressed his desire to use some parts of MONO inside Gnome 4.0 (and maybe 3.0 - not 2.0 which is in feature freeze state right now if I'm not mistaken)..

I congratulate Sun for contributing some work towards GNOME, making it better. Help for open source projects is always welcome...

Re:Is anyone else confused by this? (5, Informative)

Wdomburg (141264) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060777)

>Okay, let me be sure I understand this - Miguel
>and his gnomies wanna base GNOME on MONO which \
>is an open source implementation of .NET - which
>was developed to compete with Sun's Java - and
>Sun's throwing developers at this?

A few things:

The only developer who has said they are interested in making Gnome "based on" Mono is Miguel. Your inclusing of "and his gnomies" seems to imply that this is a widespread intention; it is not.

The term "based on" is misleading. As Miguel himself said:

Rewriting GNOME in C# with the CLR would be a
very bad idea, if not the worst possible idea
ever.

And furthermore Mono is being based on Gnome technologies, not the other way around:

Libart will be used to implement the
Drawing.2D API; Gtk+ and the GNOME libraries
will be used to implement the WinForms API and
of course Glib and libxml will be used in
various places

If anything, it would be more accurate to say that Mono is being offered as an alternate API for accessing the Gnome libraries, and that Miguel has belief that this API offers signifigant enough advantages that future code may be based on Mono, or embed the Mono runtime.

The next thing is that this has nothing to do with Gnome 2.0, which is the project that they will be working on. Miguel stated he would like to see Gnome 3.0 have Mono ties, but he has also stated that his guess is that Gnome 4.0 would be when developers start seeing the benefits of it.

And of course, the more important point - Miguel does not have maintainer control over ANY package in Gnome. He has long since given maintainership on every project he worked on to someone else.

What this means is that the only thing that will move Gnome to dependency on Mono is if it is reached as a consensus among the Gnome developers.

Matt

Countering .NET? (4, Interesting)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060677)

Is this in any way related to Miguel De Icaza's .NET comments? It'd make sense for SUN's purposes. Does this mean that they'd push for heavy Java (J2SE) integration? If so, what JVM?

It's interesting that they are targetting the small Windows server with Cobalt, I think they'd need some kind of .NET competitor complete with J2SE integration.

Re:Countering .NET? (1)

qbalus (453789) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060711)

I think you have a good point here. Gnome + Mono + Star Office + Java makes alot of sense for Sun.

Sun has been struggling with the desktop for many years:

- Sunview
- NeWs (network extensible window system, postscript)
- OpenLook
- CDE
- Now Gnome

This could be a winning ticket for them and the Open Source community

Re:Countering .NET? (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060750)

Or the touch of death, depending on how pesimistic you are ;-). Crucially though I think this gives them a back door into the X86 architecture that they blew away when they ditched the new version of Solaris for X86 platforms.

Re:Countering .NET? (1)

bartok (111886) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060874)

There's nothing to read between the lines here so why don't you stick to what's actually said in the anouncement?. To get a clue about what Miguel really meant with his .Net comments:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/200 2- February/msg00031.html

This anouncement has nothing to do with Mono or Java. It's all about finishing-up GNOME 2.0 so that Sun can make it the Default desktop on Solaris.

Co-operation (3, Insightful)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060690)

Really those hackers should be working on getting KDE and GNOME to work together better, more than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for competition, but that has to be balanced with co-operation to make Linux easier to use for everyone.

Also, doesn't anyone get the feeling here that Gnome is becoming less a desktop and more a political pawn every day?

Re:Co-operation (2, Interesting)

JanneM (7445) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060771)

Exactly what do you see as missing? We have a common window manager standard, we have a common standard for menus, with QT3 the clipboard should be interoperable, and there is quite a bit of talk about fixing some kind of standard for desktop themes - though that last one is difficult.

Is there anything else needed?

The projects will never settle on one toolkit, that's for certain; that cuts right to the heart of each projects goals and identity. They're unlikely to ever agree on a common component model either (although there's been attempts to bridge between them). None of that is really needed, however. If the applications can interoperate on the user-visible level, that really is the best of both worlds - the developers can choose whichever project they prefer to write the software in, and the users can run it fine either way.

/Janne

Re:Co-operation (-1)

real_b0fh (557599) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060836)

> We have a common window manager standard

KDE's WM is the main reason I ditched kde an chose GNOME in the early days of 1.0, and will never use KDE as my desktop.

GNOME lets you choose from a variety of "supported" (and unsupported) WMs, and me being a previous enlightenment user, it fitted very well. I'm using the gnome/enlightenment combo ever since. It's a shame that enlightenment is kinda abandoned, since it rocks. stable, customizable, powerful and eye-candy, all-in-one.

Maybe it's time for sawfish, but i'm not sure if it can beat enlighenment.

Re:Co-operation (0)

Cheesy Fool (530943) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060920)

I'm using KDE with Fluxbox and it works great.

Sawfish beats e16.

Re:Co-operation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060963)

uh, KDE has always been able to work with other window managers. Since KDE 2, it has worked with the NETWM STANDARD window manager hint specification. it took the gnome folks until 1.4 to add that.

so you should be able to use KDE with any window manager you chose that supports NETWM, such as sawfish and blackbox.

Re:Co-operation (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060860)

I want all apps to look the same and act the same, at least to the extent they do on windows (I'm not even asking for MacOS-like integration here!) The current situation in Linux is pitiful. Hell, even searching is not standardized. Galeon by default uses CTRL-F while gedit uses F6!

Re:Co-operation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060919)

And searching in Internet Explorer is ctrl+b, in MS Word it is ctrl+f, in filebrowsing(explorer) it is f3.And in notepad it is also f3 (but that is searching for tekst)

What is your point?

Well, actually gnome 2.0 have done a lot to improve usability in the widgets. And that is already a long step.
But even on windows aplications will never have the exact same behavoir. They should just try to learn from each other instead. There is no different on windows or linux in this matter.

Re:Co-operation (4, Insightful)

Pentagram (40862) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060921)

I despair on ever having a standard for keyboard shortcuts - the legacies are too long and people too used to them (I'd like C-s, to fit with emacs, but that's common for saving a file.)

However: shouldn't it be possible to have some sort of user-definable GUI-wide setting for each shortcut? Instead of adding C-s in the code of an app as a shortcut, bind the action to the standard "save-document" keystroke and have the app notified when it occurs. Allow the user to override the action for certain apps. It's surely not beyond the reach of human ingenuity.

Re:Co-operation (2)

Rob Kaper (5960) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060957)

The current situation in Linux is pitiful. Hell, even searching is not standardized. Galeon by default uses CTRL-F while gedit uses F6!


That has little to do with GNOME/GTK inconsistancies, though. Probably one of these apps uses the GNOME key bindings and the other app uses is GTK only and had to come up with its own.


I see the same inconsistensies in Windows too, though. Most modern apps for both GNOME, GTK, KDE and Qt seem to integrate well, all using the same technologies mentioned in parent post.


Of course, there are areas which can be improved. Sign up for a GNOME or KDE usability test and let us developers know.

Competition bad for open source (0)

Sir Homer (549339) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060805)

Competition doesn't help at all with open source. Open source is somewhat a communist ideal (which don't get me wrong, not EVERYTHING communist is bad), while competition is a capitalist ideal. Perferably I would like to see one very good desktop enviroment, then two so-so desktop enviroment.

Re:Co-operation (1)

bartok (111886) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060893)

Well since sun has no intention to include KDE on Solaris, I don't see why they'd pay for something they don't need. KDE and GNOME interoperability is only of interest in the Linux world.

Re:Co-operation (2)

__past__ (542467) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060927)

KDE and GNOME interoperability is only of interest in the Linux world.

Uh, why? It might not be of interest to Sun[1], but both Gnome and KDE run on many more platforms than just Linux.

[1] And IMHO, it should be - there are some really nice KDE apps, why shouldn't Sun want their customers be able to use them without unnecessary quirks, once Gnome is the "official" Solaris desktop? Then again, /me is quite confident with the current state of interoperability.

Re:Co-operation (1)

sultanoslack (320583) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060924)

People, please, for the love of all things good, stop calling Solaris Linux (this is about the third time I've seen that on this topic). Solaris is not Linux! Solaris is not a variety of Linux. Solaris development is not Linux development. Making Solaris easier to use does not make Linux easier to use.

Am I being clear?

Note, I don't have a problem with Solaris or Linux, but they aren't the same operating system.

*ducks for cover and waits for the inevitable...* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060692)

wait for the flame wars about why its GNOME and not KDE, and vice versa... :P

oh what fun...

but still... its good to see that a corporation such as Sun are putting time and effort into Open Source projects... If only more companies would help to provide the capital to help many other great projects. Granted, Sun has a vested interest in wanting to use GNOME... But its still good to see...

*news flash* Microsoft to fund WINE... i can see it now.... and look... those pigs are flying...

Re:*ducks for cover and waits for the inevitable.. (-1, Troll)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060703)

wait for the flame wars about why its GNOME and not KDE

That's actually a very valid question.

I fear that with the corporate support from the likes of Sun, GTK/GNOME will become the dominant free desktop. Just like in the days of VHS and BETA, an inferior product will triumph over a technically more advanced one because of marketing.

Re:*ducks for cover and waits for the inevitable.. (3, Informative)

bigdogs (90229) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060752)

wait for the flame wars about why its GNOME and not KDE, and vice versa... :P

Note: I work for Sun, but I don't speak for them in any way whatsoever.....
There was some discussion about this on the internal Linux mail alias, and IIRC, the consensus had something to do with C++ not being a "standardized" language.

Or something like that. I'm not a programmer, so I'm probably not using the correct terminology.

Re:*ducks for cover and waits for the inevitable.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060807)

Ah, you mean suns C++ compiler doesn't implement the C++ language and STL properly..

C++ vs C decision (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060942)

Or more to the point - g++ and Sun's C++ do not have binary compatability linkage. gcc and Sun's cc are compatible, however. Sad, but true. Often it is easier to go with the lowest common denominator - C, instead of the more advanced language, C++.

Re:*ducks for cover and waits for the inevitable.. (1)

sultanoslack (320583) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060955)

Note: I work for Sun, but I don't speak for them in any way whatsoever.....
There was some discussion about this on the internal Linux mail alias, and IIRC, the consensus had something to do with C++ not being a "standardized" language.

Hmm. I haven't used Solaris in a while, but as I recall, they don't distribute gcc/g++, but instead use an in house compiler. Most KDE development seems to revolve around GCC 2.95 (g++) right now, so it may be a problem that Sun's compiler won't compile KDE whereas it will compile Gnome. (Mostly a random guess.) Of course you can use both KDE and gcc on Solaris, but they don't come with it.

Finally Some Indian Action (1)

xzap (453197) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060696)

This is great
Finally a big Indian Company is doing some big Linux Work.
The bad part is they are doing it in Ireland
Wonder Why

they are not in ireland (3)

Ur@eus (148802) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060700)

They are not in ireland, all the Wipro hackers are in india. It is the Sun employed hackers that are in ireland.

Thats Nice Maybe I'll get a Job Now ;) (1)

xzap (453197) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060712)

Refer Subject :P

Gnome still sucks though! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060698)

KDE is the the real desktop for linux! Sun can use that crap on their SLOWlaris shit!

You'd think Sun would do a Swing desktop (2, Interesting)

PRR (261928) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060704)

You would think that Sun, of all folks, would do a separate desktop based around Swing to showcase their Java technologies just as Trolltech contributes to KDE to showcase their Qt.

Re:You'd think Sun would do a Swing desktop (0)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060721)

Jesus Christ! Are you serious?

Even small applications with Swing GUI crawl on a 1+ GHz computer. I am afraid to even think about how slow a Swing desktop would be.

Re:You'd think Sun would do a Swing desktop (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060869)

Actually, Limewire (java) runs faster than Nautilus (ansi-C) on my P2-300. Retarded? Quite.

Limeware not a desktop, but a Gnutella client (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060970)

No comparison.

Re:You'd think Sun would do a Swing desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060976)

it'd probably be faster than bloated gnome shit like galeon and nautilus.

Trying to keep MONO out ??? (2)

CDWert (450988) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060731)

I wonder with all the talk of MONO and .NET being looked at as an option fro Gnome, how much of this is intended to keep Gnome going in the direction it is already.

Sun I am certain would HATE to see MONO/.NET implmented in ANY core Gnome technology.

This is good for Gnome, either way if its sincere, and the help is actually there, and not just in a press release. I still have to wonder how self serving it is to keep .NET out of the equation.

If your going to guess... (2)

BadlandZ (1725) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060754)

If your going to guess that about the Sun+Gnome+MONO/.NET connection, why would you guess that they are doing it to keep it out?

diffrent conspiracy theory?
Maybe they are doing it as a back door way to get some control over a new standard Microsoft is pushing.

Re:Trying to keep MONO out ??? (2)

luge (4808) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060815)

[Ximian hat on] This contract doesn't affect our work with Mono in any way, nor does it affect the interaction between GNOME and Mono (none of which would be happening for years anyway.)
[Ximian+Sun hat off] How does it benefit Sun to keep Mono off their platform? Either .Net takes off, in which case Sun needs Mono to remain competitive, or .Net fails, in which case it still doesn't hurt to have Mono around just in case. Mono is not going to decide whether or not .Net succeeds- it'll stand or fall on MS's own skill in promoting it and FUDing Java.

Re:Trying to keep MONO out ??? (1)

JanneM (7445) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060865)

And also, the ideas behind .Net and Mono (as opposed to that passport #

Re:Trying to keep MONO out ??? (1)

JanneM (7445) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060876)

As I was saying before getting cut off:

Mono is based on some pretty good ideas whether associated with .Net or not, and Linux really has more to gain from being able to write _really_ portable code (that's runnable on any architecture Linux supports) in any language (whether installed on the target machine or not). You could see a situation where .Net whithers, but Mono thrives.

/Janne

Re:Trying to keep MONO out ??? (1)

luge (4808) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060887)

Definitely. So when are you going to come hang out in #bugs, Janne? :)

Re:Trying to keep MONO out ??? (1)

JanneM (7445) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060936)

When I can figure out how to install the GNOME2 beta and not lose the use of my desktop... :)

/Janne

Sun vs. Slashdot (2)

Cally (10873) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060736)

So the consensus on Slashdot and LinuxToday, to me at least, seemed pretty comprehensively to have ticked box marked "Miguel is smart but misguided, .NET is evil and you must never trust Microsoft." And there were many comments along the lines of "Sun will now have nothing to do with GNOME cos they will never have anything to do with .NET." Well I reckon Sun do better due diligence on such things than the average /. gasbag (like me =) so, whatever they think of .NET, they're not worrying about it affecting Gnome for at least the next couple of years.

Does this mean we get another couple of years of Slashdot flamage? Suits me, I like a good flame war ;)

Re:Sun vs. Slashdot (1)

dybvandal (535813) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060871)

I think the thing they are trying to do here is getting themselves even further into GNOME to be able to control it better, since then you are the ones providing a considerable number of developers ...

WIPO is giving Gnome people? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060738)

Oh, Wipro :)

I was confused there for a moment. :p

Wipro (3, Interesting)

AirLace (86148) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060740)

I've had some experience with Wipro in the past. It's a software [redherring.com] sweatshop [isanet.org] based in India. I guess that's how Sun can affort to devote 50 whole programmers to GNOME. Does the GNOME community really want to be associated with this kind of establishment?

Re:Wipro (4, Insightful)

Ami Ganguli (921) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060785)

Does the GNOME community really want to be associated with this kind of establishment?

Definately. At worst, pumping some money into India will do nothing to help India's poor. At best, growth in the Indian economy will help everybody at least a little (even if it's just through an increased tax base).

I fail to see how this can be considered a bad thing.

Misguided (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060804)

I don't know where you people get these perceptions? Sweatshop???? I have worked with Wipro myself. Why do you persist in comparing pay rates with your US based $$$ rates? Don't you realize that India is a much cheaper place? Everything is cheaper.... a $$$ goes much longer than it does in the US. A person making the equivalent of $200 a month in India can live more luxuriously than someone making $3,000 in the US. I know because I have been in both of the above situations.

Wipro is a fine organization and it is CMM level 5. Its work culture is great and it pays its employees very very well. So stop bashing something when you dont have the full information; with just a couple of biased articles as your news source.

I would hope so (4, Insightful)

Per Abrahamsen (1397) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060828)

More high tech job in the third world is good for everyone. It will help establish an educated middle class which will bring local stability and wealth, and ultimately be a market for first world companies, increasing prosperity here as well.

I'd really hope a community build around a project started by a Mexican will appreciate that.

Re:Wipro (1)

qweqwe (104866) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060858)

Just because a company is based in a poor country like India, doesn't mean that it's a sweatshop. Wipro programmers are not that much cheaper than, say, Canadian programmers. Times have changed. As companies in non-western countries start to gain reputation and skills, they become more popular, and thus can afford to demand more. That raises their standard of living and the standard of living of people in their country.

Personally, I think it's great if people can find work they like in their own country. Why should you have to move to some place like North America or Europe or some parts of east asia to get a decent job?

Where all the "Sun is Evil" folks? (3, Interesting)

Derkec (463377) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060766)


The last few weeks, I've been reading post after post which says "Sun is alienating the entire open community" or "Sun is out to destroy Linux" or something similar. I'm curious what you people think of this action. Is Sun's entire motivation to improve a desktop environment that can be used on Solaris or are they trying to make *NIX more competitive on the desktop? Or - now just maybe - is Sun at least a little bit motivated to give back to the community like it says it wants to.

Re:Where all the "Sun is Evil" folks? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060794)

Gnome doens't have anything to do with linux.

They can still want to kill linux and hijack a free software project to run on top of their proprietary system at the same time.

Re:Where all the "Sun is Evil" folks? (5, Insightful)

qweqwe (104866) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060798)

Sun is Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde, good cop and bad cop, the good twin and the evil twin rolled into one. Companies as large and diverse as Sun and IBM don't speak with one voice. They have multiple personalities.

Give us the money, or the monkey gets it (3, Funny)

JPMH (100614) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060782)

... all because Miguel threatened to replace Bonobo with .NET ? :-)

Kouldn't we all join one family (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060796)

There kould be one desktop for all of us

Uh oh, WIPRO. (5, Interesting)

mrsam (12205) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060799)

At my day job (a huge corporate behemoth), they decided to use WIPRO to build a business-critical application. Well, they've been regretting this decision for two years now.

Everyone had dollar signs in their eyes at first: using cheap overseas labor, how much money they'll save, yadda yadda yadda...

Well, the PHBs discovered that if they wanted cheap overseas labor, that's exactly what they got with WIPRO: cheap, shoddy labor. Spaghetti, unmaintainable code all around.

I really hope that WIPRO's "contributions" to the GNOME project would undergo the same scrutiny and vetting as anyone else's submitted patches and contributed code.

Re:Uh oh, WIPRO. (5, Informative)

luge (4808) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060827)

A number of Wipro patches have already been rejected and sent back for reworking. Ximian and Sun can not and will not force maintainers to accept patches from them. Of course, Sun may apply those patches to their own builds of GNOME, but they could do that no matter what. It's important to remember that using GNOME doesn't make sense for Sun if they destroy the community in the process.

Does WIPRO have GNOME CVS write permission? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060932)

Or are they normal contributors?

Re:Uh oh, WIPRO. (2, Interesting)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060946)

Luis, you've got your work cut out for you. I've seen the effect of outsourcing development and even just maintence work to third world countries. Typically the programmers jump in and start producing patches way before they have enough domain experience to know WTF they are doing. I've seen companies blindly trust the 3rd world developers to do things right and let them check into the tree themselves. Worst mistake those companies have ever made, at least one company spent 3 months just trying to recover from it.

You guys are going to have to be exceptionally vigilant in dealing with the output from wipro's people. I expect that for the first year or so, while they are getting up to speed, their contribution will be net negative because of all the work everyone else has to do make sure they don't F it up.

Re:Uh oh, WIPRO. (2)

3seas (184403) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060853)

And the great thing about open source is?

Nobody can stop improvements..... But getting things layed out, even if wrong.....

It's easier to improve then to originate.

:)

Too many cooks... (5, Insightful)

Psiren (6145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060809)

This just makes me wonder if the number of people working on Gnome has increased too much. There's been plenty of examples of throwing developers at a project to speed up development, only for it to have the opposite effect. It takes time for new developers to learn the innards of a project. I can only see this making things worse.

I gave up on coding for Gnome about 6 months ago because I got fed up chasing my tail with new and incompatabile libararies popping up every five minutes. It seems to me that this occurred because of a lack of communciation between all the developers. How adding a whole bunch more of them to the mix will help this is beyond me.

Having said all that, I hope it does work. Too much effort has gone into Gnome for it not to succeed. And I see KDE vs Gnome as a good thing. I think it keeps everyone on their toes.

Thumbs up! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060810)

One vote for Sun to help out my desktop-of-choice!

its completely logical (1)

skymester (323871) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060840)

Why should SUN move out of GNOME, because it is in danger to be infestet with .NET? Its only logical that they move more into GNOME to have a good position in the project.

Paid hackers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060856)

One has got to wonder if mandating programmers is the correct way to spur the development of a publicly developed UI. When Corel tried to do that with KDE, they ended up being pushed out simply because they could not contribute code at the level and skill of the rest of the KDE hackers. I'm wondering if in three months, all of Sun's extra programming people will not just be pushed back to the outside. These companies should learn that you cannot dump money into open source and make it a good product, a better idea would be to sponsor existing dedicated hackers such that they may work on the interface full time. Just my two cents. troy(at)kde.org

y gnome not kde (-1, Flamebait)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060863)

Am i the only one wondering y sun isnt using KDE to replace cde?

Let me preface the following statement with the fact that i am glad i have the choice (on linux) of both Gnome and KDE

However:

Gnome SUX

KDE is just so much farther advanced as an integrated desk top , i dont even see y anyone bothers with Gnome.

Also, if .net is going to be the competitor to java ... y is sun messing with Gnome?

Re:y gnome not kde (3, Insightful)

__past__ (542467) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060897)

Suns argument is mostly that they know C better than C++ - but I doubt that this is that relevant for a company like sun.

Another explanation is that it's easier to develop proprietary software for Gnome: GTK and most Gnome-Libs are LGPL, while, if you would use KDE, you would either have to purchase a commercial license for Qt, or to use the GPL version (and, hence, make your own app Free). Sun probably isn't comfortable telling their customers either to stop producing closed-source apps for Solaris, or to pay money to some other company.

Re:y gnome not kde (1)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 12 years ago | (#3060926)

makes a lot of sense

y pay trolltech for a QT license even if KDE is an order of magnitude better

Funny (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060895)

Bugfixing GNOME modules to meet Sun's quality standards.

Man, let me catch my breath - I can't stop laughing. I guess I've dealt with too many Sun C++ compiler bugs and Java bugs over they years, so I'm a bit skeptical.

Sun's AWT to be rewritten in GNOME (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3060978)

It's just a matter of time - bury that slow and buggy Motif once and for all.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>