The Price Of Doing Business 797
8127972 writes: "It seems that a ton of high tech companies are leaving cities (like San Fran) with high costs of doing business for cheaper cities (Washington DC is mentioned due to new government spending) or even cities in Canada. Sounds like American high tech workers are going to have to learn to say the word "eh?" a lot."
Move to Oklahoma!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
In Oklahoma, you put an add in the paper, and you will have billions of applications and you can pick who ever is willing to take the least amount of pay.
That is why companies like AOL like to put call centers in Oklahoma cause they can pay a whole $9/hour and people shit themselves about how much money it is.
Unfortuantly, actually SELLING a product in Oklahoma is kind of bleak.. but if your product is nation wide.. then this is the place.
Re:Move to Oklahoma!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Oklahoma (and similar states) also tend to offer HUGE tax incentives to companies like AOL to open call centers, since it creates lots of jobs for the local populous that would not have otherwise exist.
Luckily, I escaped the hell that is Oklahoma, and am now living in the hell that is Texas. *grin*
Re:Move to Oklahoma!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
The few of us left here in Oklahoma, we refer to ourselves as "refuges", are too lazy to get off our asses and actually move to a state where we can get paid well.
But! the advantage is, I don't really have to work hard and get a ton of free time. Plus, my true love besides computers is cars (hence my nick of TurboRoot). In Oklahoma, we have no vehicle inspections anymore. That means you can take all that emission crap off your car (all the polution blows northwest and ends up in Denver) and you can't get in trouble. The only restriction is that your car isn't too loud. Other then that, modify your vehicle at will.
Of course, don't forget the joke "Why is Oklahoma so windy? Because Kansas blows and Texas sucks."
Re:Move to Oklahoma!!! (Score:3, Funny)
That there pollution is just ev-oh-loo-shun in action! It only kills off the weak alveoli (I watch the Discovery channel -- I know lots o'them big words)! Down here in God's Country we don't hold to pampering the cells in our bodies! Only the strong survive! The weak die in the summer! Remember the Alamo! Go and buy some more guns! Yee-hah!
(To hopefully deterr some flames: I am a native Dallasite who owns lots of guns. This post is sarcastic).
Re:Move to Oklahoma!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
As someone who spent the first 21 years of his life there (OKC), I can tell you that there is a reason for that. I think anyone would be crazy to move there seeing that all I ever wanted to do was get out.
Re:South Carolina!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
* Well, it is South Carolina
* Convincing your staff to move here
I've lived in South Carolina for most of my life and I wouldn't say it's a bad place to live and actually right now I'd much rather be there than here in colorado where it's -20 with the wind chill
On a side note, you will have to get used to a few cultural differences: "ya'll damn yankies better no be comin' don her and talk 'bout no 'civil war', ain't been no 'civil war', ya'll must mean da 'war o' nothern agression'!"
Going, going, GONE!! (Score:2, Funny)
It could be worse... (Score:3, Funny)
=)
Sure, whatever. (Score:2)
Re:Sure, whatever. (Score:2)
Depends on the area.. My brother owns a place in La Conception (about 50mins north-west of Montreal) and almost everybody up there says eh, A LOT!
Re:Sure, whatever. (Score:2, Informative)
Joke Missed (Score:2)
"Canada: it's not just aboot doughnuts anymore, eh?"
Virg
Re:Sure, whatever. (Score:2)
-russ
Re:Sure, whatever. (Score:2)
So Let's See... (Score:5, Funny)
Okay, then, let's get this straight:
East: "Sure, whatever, eh?"
West: "Sure, whatever, Seattle?"
I think I like it the Eastern way better, eh?
Virg
Re:Sure, whatever. (Score:2, Insightful)
Canadians are extremely competitive internationally. Americans are simply over-paid; that is why America is an importer nation, because American-made products are also over-priced internationally.
food for thought (Score:2, Informative)
i like the "even Canada" statement. said as if it were completely outrageous. "even timbucktwo..."
perhaps the weak Canadian dollar and the dual Canadian olympic hockey golds will be joined with a monumentous reverse brain drain. Canada's been complaining about it for years... maybe the US will get a kick at the can.
and i see the "baren glacier as soon as you hit the border" misconception is still alive and well. Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and others are massive metropolatin centers with similar climate to many US cities. in Vancouver it rarely freezes and typically has winter temperatures in the mid-high 40's. (that's around 8degC... eh?)
Re:Sure, whatever. (Score:2)
Depends what industry. Obviously, our social programs which are not privatized are indeed paid by the government. The film industry gets breaks, not in salary subsidizing, but in tax breaks, mostly.
Other than that, the lower expectations of standards of living, cheaper services (postal, health) has alot to do with lower salary demands. Make no mistake, too much privatization leads to higher costs of living, albeit maybe better products and services.
Amazing. (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course there are also a lot of small citys that would kill for some high-tech company to move in. Seems like they could get some pretty good deals if they used that option.
Why do so many companies feel the need to be tied to a coast?
Re:Amazing. (Score:2)
Because the concentrations of population and other companies are on the coasts. Chicken, meet Egg.
Re:Amazing. (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the coasts vs. the world, I think it's more of a media bias, reflected in the graph shown in the article, where almost all the cities mentioned are on or near the East or West coasts. Plus, not *all* of a company has to move; example: Boeing moving their headquarters to Chicago while manufacturing stays in Washington State.
I *should* stay out of that whole Oklahoma thread at the top, but it calls to mind what college football star (and failed actor) Brian Bosworth once said, that Big 12 towns like Norman, Oklahoma and Lincoln, Nebraska were akin to the worst of what the Soviet Union had to offer.
other related news (Score:5, Insightful)
They claim that a city will do well if they install a broadband communications network that connects citizens, local businesses and the global marketplace.
I think that the obvious solution to this may be Telecomutting See this link for more info [gartner.com]
Re:other related news (Score:4, Insightful)
It's always been like this (Score:2, Interesting)
If you stick around long enough, you'll even see it yourself. Eventually, the next big thing(tm) will make its way back to the Bay Area and everyone will re-locate here again.
Already starting - biotech boom in Bay Area (Score:2)
The Bay Area is an expensive market for expensive talent in expensive industries.
No, you should not manufacture widgets in the Bay Area if you can do so elsewhere. The companies that are here are here becuase they need a high concentration of talent across a set of tech industries that you cannot find elsewhere in quantity.
R&D is expensive and the Bay Area is the R&D shop for the nation (if not the world).
Bad news for San Francisco - Bad strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad karma revisits landlords who threw out poor people for those who could handle higher rents! News at 11!
San Francisco's "Housing Farce" (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:3)
I herd of dat lectricity tang, but it be evil! (Score:4, Funny)
Make sure you mention the horrible things like wide open plains, warm summers, clean air, stable jobs, low crime rate, friendly people and low cost of living. Qwest provides service including DSL for the Fargo area. If you don't like DSL, go with a cable modem because yes we have those too. Fargo also has wireless access from Monet. Dickinson and the surrounding towns have Consolidated Communications which provides DSL and cable modems as well. I'm not exactly sure where you were, but the things you're describing are a complete opposite of what I've experienced.
Now after saying that... Stay out cause we don't want no strangers round these parts! Ma fetch me mah shotgun!
Re:ND (Score:2)
Secondly, your winters in North Dakota are worse than ours here in Minneapolis. You're out on the prarie and get all that blowing and drifting. The interstate never gets closed in this part of Minnesota.
While having more jobs and money is nice, I hate all the idiots from the coast moving here. It ruins all the good things about the midwest. Stay out of "fly-over country"! It's dull and boring... and people are nice and no pollution and lots of open space and nature... I mean it sucks! Stay in LA!
So they're going to Take Off, eh? (Score:2, Insightful)
The median cost of rent where I live is the highest in the country. It's a nice place, but I could be buying a house in Ohio every five years, it's that bad. Firemen, police, teachers, gardeners, and others with lower incomes have been leaving the area and are very hard to recruit. The irony is, where tech industries fled to, early on, have become a similar problem. Austin, TX is a great example, seeing insanely rapid growth and the problems it brought, Sacramento, CA went the same route in the mid 80's. However, if you're looking for a decent place out of SF, Sacto isn't a bad place to go. Lots of office space and lower cost of living.
Canada? Wouldn't the taxes alone make that less appealing? When I think it's expensive in California, all I have to do is remember the GST and PST I paid in Ontario. Gads. Probably lots of available land, but so has most of the midwest.
Re:So they're going to Take Off, eh? (Score:5, Informative)
According to Ernst & Young Canada Tax Calculator [ey.com], marginal rates in most provinces top out at around 40-50%.
If you're in CA (California) and making $US 75K, you're paying a marginal federal rate of 27%, plus 9.3% state taxes (on everything over $30000), plus 6.3% for the SS pyramid scheme (up to $86000 and increasing by 5% per year), plus another 1.5% for medicare taxes. Works out to a marginal rate of about 45%.
If you're in .ca (Canada) and making $CAD 75K, you've stopped paying into CPP (the Canadian version of the SS pyramid scheme) and EI (unemployment insurance) after C$35K or so. The marginal rates aren't really any different.
Of course, a $CAD is worth about $0.63 US, so your C$80K is only $50K. But the cost of living is much lower.
Got investments? Canada taxes capital gains at only half the marginal rates, and has no long-term vs. short-term rate difference. (In the US, you have to hold it for a year to qualify for the 20% "long-term" federal rate, and in CA, you're still paying that 9.3% CA income tax on it. So your long-term capital gains in California are taxed at 29.3%, and your short-term trades are at 40%. In Canada, all trades are taxed at about 20%.)
GST/PST? OK, compare 15% vs. 8.25%. But how much do you spend, vs. how much do you save? The better-off you are, the less a consumption tax hits you.
And if you have kids, what do you get for your money? In the US, you pretty much need a private school and university education costs are about double. And you have to pay for your own medical insurance. In Canada, the health care for Bad Stuff (cancer, etc) sucks ass, but for 90% of the population that only has to deal with colds, flu, and the occasional broken bone, it seems pretty good.
Bottom line - The US may be tax-competitive for an individual, but California sure as fuck ain't.
GST/PST is RAPE, it must be said (Score:3)
Yes, California is the most expensive state to live in, but moving to Canada is hardly an improvement. You are better off moving to a low-tax/no-tax state.
Re:So they're going to Take Off, eh? (Score:4, Insightful)
You may well find that what you thought you knew to be true, isn't.
Re:So they're going to Take Off, eh? (Score:2)
It's about time (Score:2)
What th--?! (Score:4, Interesting)
What is this? Editor-troll-and-flamebait day?
In any case, the movie industry here in sunny SoCal has had this problem for a long time, which is why a lot of productions have been moving up to non-sunny Canada.
Re:What th--?! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What th--?! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What th--?! (Score:2)
-Peter
Re:What th--?! (Score:2)
Well we are a independant member of the British Commonwealth. Yes the Queen is the head of state, but she has now power, and no new law passed in Britian applies to Canada without Canada consenting. More info here [linksnorth.com]
Rural IT Options (Score:2, Insightful)
Shameless Plug: rural communities with bandwidth can be found. Two I work in can be found at:
http://www.bowmannd.com
http://www.hettingernd.com
Re:Rural IT Options (Score:3, Funny)
Checking the weather in balmy Bowman, ND, I find a temperature of 8 degrees F, with a wind chill of -4 degrees F.
You can call me a wimp if you want, but I don't really like freezing my ass off, even if office space goes for $1/sq ft and I get a free DS3 to my house.
Columbus, OH....great place..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Columbus, OH....great place..... (Score:2, Troll)
Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Interesting (Score:2, Informative)
And Canada is generally considered (I don't actually support this opinion) a "better" place to live than most other countries.
Sakhmet.
Re:Interesting (Score:3, Informative)
At the height of the "Brain Drain" (Canada-to-US migration of skilled workers), Ontario was governed by a socialist party and had marginal tax rates about 10-15% higher than its current rates (umm, and in conjunction with the tax hikes, welfare benefits doubled, and the commie bastards in power were confused as to why they'd gone to record deficits for the duration of their rule). British Columbia was in a similar mess.
Both parties were swept out of office in landslide elections (Ontario about 6 years ago, BC more recently) and neoconservative governments were put in place with aggressive tax-cutting policies.
Federally, Canada had a debt-to-GDP ratio of about 70%, and similarly high taxes. (Canadian tax brackets weren't indexed for inflation when inflation was under 3% -- as such, there was tremendous bracket creep). In this case, the party in power didn't change, but its policies did, largely due to the actions of a reasonably-clued Finance Minister.
Canada appears to have done the right thing - cut taxes, cut spending, foster growth. But 10 years ago, there was no light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, and in a move reminiscent of "Atlas Shrugged", many Canadians simply gave up on their country and came to the States to seek their fortunes in the dot-com boom.
Of course, the dot-com implosion is the largest factor in people migrating from California to cheaper jurisdictions, but at the rate US legislation is going, a "reverse Brain Drain" may well take place in a few years.
Re:Interesting (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, but you know California's even more screwed when they all move back home for the same reason!
The high cost of the world's best talent (Score:2)
Re:The high cost of the world's best talent (Score:3, Funny)
The burbs (Score:2, Insightful)
I guess the moral to this rant is that no matter where you go to after a while its the exact same as where you left. The small town life doesnt remain the small town life for long as soon as the town fathers realize that they can make tons of cash off the tech industry.
I cant wait for the days where a high speed access point and a video phone are all you will need and you can work from anywhere.
Please move to Indianapolis (Score:2, Funny)
Must be that USD/CAD $ thing... (Score:4, Interesting)
Calgary is attractive to employees because unlike most of Canada, there is no provincial sales tax, only federal sales tax (so they end up paying only 7% on everything they buy, as opposed to 15% like Ontario and the eastern provinces).
One major centre which is not mentioned in Montreal - which is incredibly cheap compared to the other major urban centres in Canada. It's generally cheaper Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in almost every category for employees (rent, car insurance, food, beer...) Only problem is that Quebec has a high rate of provincial tax, so maybe it factors out a bit in the end.
Another reason for Wil Wheaton to..... (Score:2)
he's already knocked us for taking some of the film industry (ok, he's not the only one.... but remember they created Hollywood in California for the good weather - now with the smog in LA they can't shoot much anymore)
then there is the whole Hockey thumping... (damnit it's our sport anyways!
and lastly there are those damn 'Canadian Cold Fronts' that make it snow in Texas... yes definately BLAME CANADA!
ah.... all better now
have a great weekend all!
:)
To put things in perspective (Score:2, Interesting)
So all in all, it would be a win-win situation for them... and it has the same time-zone as LA, Seattle, San Fran and so on (as opposed to going over seas which makes for a development nightmare! I have been through it, working with UK/Ireland - from Vancouver, and let me tell you it is NOT my idea of fun
peace.
-farshad
Never understoof. (Score:2, Insightful)
These guys are MBAs and they can't figure out how to spend less money. It blows my mind.
Wonder if this has anything to do with .. (Score:2)
Old hat tho. It happens (happened) in every industry. As the tech market becomes more 'bricks and mortar', the US will likely outsource much of its labour, although, as usual, not its executive staff.
Calcualate your new salary (Score:3, Informative)
$100,000 in Oklahoma City compares to $279,000 in Menlo Park.
I saw it on the Internet, so it must be true.
Re:Calcualate your new salary (Score:3, Insightful)
Homefair does not take into account the fact that many of our costs these days are interstate or not subject to local price limitations. The number for the "cheaper" state thus does not take into account that while local goods might be cheaper, vacations are not cheaper, mail-order computers are no cheaper, etc. In other words, a million dollars worth of caviar in Austin is probably about the same as a million dollars worth of caviar in New York.
Also, people's spending habits and the mix of luxury vs. normal, local vs. imported vs. domestic goods changes radically as income scales up and down. No single multiple can ever really reflect the difference in how far salary will go for a wide salary range.
Re:Calcualate your new salary (Score:4, Informative)
Well, actually, the HomeFair calculator does take the most important things into account, just not perfectly. It's using what's called a "cost of living index," which compares different categories of costs--rent, utilities, health care, etc.--and making the calculation based on that.
No, it's not precise--by necessity it's using average COL values, presuming you are paying the median in all its values for everything. But it's not a bad ballpark estimate. Vacations and mail-order computers are not your most significant reoccuring expenses, are they? The most significant expense for nearly anyone is housing, followed (roughly) by utilities, transportation and local taxes. If I moved from Tampa to Santa Clara, the fact that a Titanium PowerBook is the same price in both places is immaterial. The fact that my $650/mo apartment here is an $1800/mo apartment there is very material... and that's the sort of thing that salary calculators do take into account.
North Carolina highest unemployment in 30 years (Score:2)
Well, except for one thing... (Score:5, Interesting)
If all the high tech jobs move up that way, most Slashdot readers are gonna be working behind the counters at 7-11, unless Canada loosens its new immigration restrictions a bit.
Re:Well, except for one thing... (Score:2)
The points system is based on language skills, education, and work experience.
Tech people from America can rightfully lay claim to all three.
Re:Well, except for one thing... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Well, except for one thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
What could be harder than proving you have a college degree, can speak English, and a job offer? That's most of the "points" you need right then and there!
Especially compared to the 6-7 years of hoop-jumping with INS -- an agency that seems dedicated to the propostion that terrorists can get in just fine on student visas, but technology professionals have to stick with the same job for the better part of a decade and beg for permission from a state employment agency (3-6 months), the federal department of labor (another month), then back to the INS to ask for permission to apply for a green card (between 3 months to 1 year), and then another year or two after permission's granted, to actually get the green card. Get laid off or company reorgs? Get on the next plane back home and start from scratch.
If you've got half a brain and a degree, getting into Canada to do high-tech work is trivial.
INS incompetency has made it clear that high-tech workers are neither wanted nor valued in the States.
Just gives me an excuse (Score:2)
Availability of talent? (Score:2, Insightful)
You can move the company, but if only the lower half of the talent pool follows, it's not a very good decision.
Exactly. Its about diversity of the job market (Score:2)
How many employees are going to move to JerkWater where their new employer is the only game in town??
Re:Exactly. Its about diversity of the job market (Score:2)
I think you need to actually visit more places than your one bus stop to actually know what the state of the other high tech areas in the country are really like so you won't show your ignorance making incorrect generalizations.
Welcome to Canada, folks ... (written by a Canuck) (Score:5, Funny)
Disadvantages
One thing that I find ironic is that it was only a few years ago that Nortel was threatening to leave Canada because of its taxation rates which hurt corporations trying to compete against those in the USA.
Re:Welcome to Canada, folks ... (written by a Canu (Score:2, Funny)
an abundance of gorgeous people are our best kept secret
Ah, I see you don't live in New Brunswick.
I swear, all I'm looking for is a woman with less facial hair than me and no kids. Are my standards just too high?
Re:Welcome to Canada, folks ... (written by a Canu (Score:3, Informative)
You should manage your money a little better. I make over $80K and pay out only 25% for those items.
Re:Excellent summary (from an expat) (Score:2)
Work for the love, not the money. Techies are overpaid anyhow, although I will admit that they do tend to need to buy expensive toys for the home in order to stay competative in their industry as an exmplouee
Re:Excellent summary (from an expat) (Score:2)
So what would be the equivalent when you adjust by cost of living and purchasing-power parity? $100k CA? $90k CA?
Finally, some sense (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm no authority, but I am just glad to see things finally evening out a bit. A town isn't meant to consist 100% of high tech profitable firms. They need teachers and "sanitation engineers" and whatnot -- the guys who don't make a zillion dollars a year to pay for the housing.
Baltimore Business Quotes : (Score:4, Funny)
"When we gonna get us some of that them there health care Hon ?"
"If we could switch to Solar Panels, we would use a lots less Earl (oil)."
"Whys that there stadium say PSI-NET? Whoz that Hon ?"
"Yea, this heres the new business capitals, we're right between Warshington and Napolis."
[non baltimore residents need not laugh]
States Need to Learn (Score:2)
And this doesn't even touch on all the regulations that must be obeyed.
What do they expect businesses to do? There reaches a point where you have to either move or go bankrupt.
Brian
Forget Canada - India is where the jobs are going (Score:5, Interesting)
It turns out that due to the caste system, there has always been a surplus of highly educated, underemployed workers. It used to be that they emigrated to other countries, becoming doctors, lawyers, or engineers. With the telecommunications revolution, that is no longer the case.
Today, there are literally thousands of offshore developers and IT workers who are rented out in large blocks for U.S. and European projects. I know that Best Buy and Target do at least some IT this way and have heard of others. At my workplace, every desk that was vacated in the layoff after 9/11 (including my wife's) has been reoccupied by an engineer from our new strategic partner [hcltechnologies.com]. Under the visa laws, they have to make comparable wages to a U.S. worker while here. When they go home (or work is shipped offshore to awaiting engineers), though, they make a quarter our hourly rate. With the cost of living offshore, this is still enough to be a king's ransom.
On the whole, they seem like good people. It can be awkward at times, but I work well with them. Still, for the first time in my life, I understand the anger that Detroit autoworkers felt towards the Japanese back in the '70s. They found themselves out of work through no fault of their own, priced out because of international forces and the shenanigans of their employers and unions.
Truth is, this is the new reality that IT workers in the "developed world" must face. We have to find our niches, clean up our processes, and find a way to make our labor worth four times the cost of sending our jobs overseas. Heck, that's basically what the guys in Detroit did. At least, the ones that are left...
We moved to Portland, Maine (Score:2, Interesting)
I believe flashy locations are utterly pointless (Score:2)
But no, IT corporations say "We need to move to San Franciso!". They are idiotic, and they get what they deserve for making such stupid mistakes, I have about as much sympathy for them as those who are rebuilding for the third time in the same location because putting up a house on a flood plain was a Really Good Idea (tm).
Is there any compelling reason to be there, other than ego? In most - read: almost all - cases....no.
Furthermore, what really gets me, is when companies have little or no revenue stream and decide to plop down in the most expensive place they can find and then set to work on maybe, you know....making some money.
Here is a stunning idea, locate somplace inexpensive - if you think you won't get any employees or business by setting up someplace that isn't flashy you are ignorant or simply unwilling to accept the truth. Then, build your bussiness slowly, spend as little as possible, supply good, but not extravagant workspaces and equipment and do away with most or all luxuries and see what happens. You might actually last more than a year or two. And when your company grows, it might actually be sensible to move to somplace more upscale. You know.....when you can actually afford to.
People just need to think for a minute, before they go off making dumb and obvious mistakes then crying about it later on.
Sandhill Rd is the only true "prestige" address (Score:4, Insightful)
How many other places in the country can you place an ad for an esoteric vertical technology and reasonably expect 100 good resumes??
And about time! (Score:2)
That being said, I live in Fairfax Virginia and based on the employment section of the Post, it doesn't seem like people are exactly *flocking* to this part of the country. If they are, they aren't hiring. Its still pretty dismal around here, UNLESS you have a security clearance, in which case you have nothing but options... "Will code Perl to help fight the Taliban, please ignore that I'm a slacker misanthrope, that was cool in the dot-com days..."
Diversity and Tolerance are why the Bay Area wins (Score:4, Insightful)
For techies - it means that you are respected and accepted everywhere, no matter what you look like.
It is the opposite of the nightmare world Jon Katz describes in "Voices from the Hellmouth". Nobody who has been dumped-on for being smart or diferent wants to go back out into the cold.
Attempts to replicate the Bay Area have to replicate this tolerance too - which often requires a massive, slow change in attitude.
-- Jamie
On a related note (Score:2)
I always feel a bit inferior--for a second--when I look at how underpaid I am relative to the statistics in these articles. However, I quickly realize that these statistics are mostly from people in places like Silicon Valley, where a pup tent in someone's back yard costs $150,000.
The fact is that these articles include naieve and misguided analyses of income. It is much better to just rely on a few real data points, such as those from recent job offers, and use local consumer-price-index numbers [bls.gov] to scale the salaries accordingly. It is suprising how $40,000/yr. in a small south-east city can easily equal $60,000/yr. in Chicago, for example.
In the words of the immortal Geddy Lee of Rush... (Score:2)
To the Great White North.
Take off!
It's a beauty way to go.
Bad Joke (Score:2)
Q. How do Canadians spell Canada?
A. C, eh? N, eh? D, eh?
/me bows.
Ok, now continue with the real conversation.
Canadia (Score:5, Informative)
Next if US'ers moves here they'll be paid in Canadian dollars. While you'll live well in Canada it's a big pay cut from the US, especially when you add taxes on top. Furthermore prices in Canadian cities have started to rise and while they don't compare to NYC, Boston or SF they're still shocking the natives and expensive in local terms.
Finally there are the cultural differences. While visiting Toronto or Vancouver may feel very familiar to a US'er that changes when you actually live here (Montreal is immediately obvious as being different.) There're the little things like brands being different, everyone being that one notch politer, and Curling being a real sport. There's also a dearth of ghastly evening news (you'd think Canadians are the world's worst drivers from watching TV news until you realize there aren't as many shootings and other violent incidents for the if-it-bleeds-it-leads stories) and lots more interest in international events.
However there are even more important differences. One is the Quebec issue. This is where I live but it comes up everywhere across the nation: French language laws, government policies, separatism, and the economic shock-waves every time Quebec threatens to leave.
Other significant differences:
Washington DC -- not cheap (Score:3)
That said, send some jobs over here. We need em!
San Francisco is just the beginning (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:California (Score:2)
Mass relaocations to/from CA every four years (Score:2)
The Bay Area in particular is about the cutting edge industries - there is already a groundswell of biotech. Once an industry becomes mature and doesn't need cutting edge talent, it should leave the area.
Re:blame canada? (Score:4, Insightful)
Trust me, my fellow techies, if you ever move up here, get an apartment or house within two or three minutes walk of a Tim Horton's. You will not regret it.
Krispy Kreme blows away Horny Tim's (Score:2, Insightful)
Once KK enters the Canuck market, you are going to see Tim's get hammered (or vastly improve their donuts in response)
Re:I can't wait (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What smaller cities dont provide (Score:2)
Or seen a film at the Senator Theatre
Charles Street in Baltimore is the (more or less) "alternative-lifestyle-zone(tm)' of Baltimore.
You want good sushi, great dance clubs, and clothing/furnature shops ? thats the place to go.
You wanna get mugged ? go over to Security Blvd and stand still for about 30 seconds.
Re:What smaller cities dont provide (Score:2)
Re:Montreal is doing well (Multimedia City) (Score:2)
Re:So, what are we going to call this? (Score:2)
I was gonna call it "geek flight", but I just realized that after SSSCA passes, it'll be known by its more traditional name: "Brain drain".
Intellectual capital is as mobile as financial capital.
Bog a jurisdiction down with high taxes and an anti-technology legal regime (e.g. DMCA, SSSCA), and your geeks will leave for somewhere else.
Re:Price of Living in Canada (Score:5, Insightful)
That is highly doubtful. Canadians have always had a higher standard of living than Americans, and until just this year, the highest standard in the world (displaced by Denmark, I think). America is barely in the top ten.
Honestly, so many Canadians don't seem to know how well they have it!