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How to Save PGP

michael posted more than 12 years ago | from the emergency-chute dept.

Encryption 235

Tomcat666 sends in: "The Register got some excerpts from an interview with Phil Zimmerman. He talks about how it might be possible to save PGP (Network Associates couldn't sell it, and will stop its development), OpenPGP and the future (industry-backed OpenPGP?)." A follow-up to our story yesterday about Network Associates mothballing PGP.

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Why? (0, Offtopic)

SteamedGeek (564964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132530)

Who cares about PGP... if companies and investors are not opting in, there is a reason... ponder that.

Re:Why? (4, Insightful)

Minupla (62455) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132611)

How about Amnesty International who uses PGP to keep their researchers who are in dangerous parts of the world, and the people who inform them safe from governments who would think nothing of searching their laptops? PGP has saved lives of good people who without it wouldn't have access to encryption secure enough to trust their lives with.

Think about that, how many computer programs would you trust your life with?

Re:Why? (1)

joshjs (533522) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132687)

Think about that, how many computer programs would you trust your life with?

You mean aside from windows? ;)

Re:Why? (1)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132760)

The first time I bought a copy of windows (95, and don't worry, I'm cured) I read through the licence. Why does it have to tell me specifically that nuclear fail-safes should not be run under windows, nor should any live-saving medical devices?

Re:Why? (1)

great_flaming_foo (561939) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132695)

I don't know about you, but if I'm going to trust my life to some software I would at least like the option of looking at the source code. So, it seems like they might be better off with an open program like gpg. I now I don't want to die because of a bug in a program that could have been fixed if the source was open.

Re:Why? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132723)

Yeah, I'd much rather die because of a bug in poorly-written public domain code, than buy from a company that has staff on hand to do quality testing, and paid programmers who can spend all day on the code.

Oh wait... NO!!

BEFORE you post a reply, read this:
1) Yes, I know, microsoft software sucks. That's not what I'm arguing about.
2) I'm also aware some companies use EULAs to eliminate their liability. You should buy from someone who doesn't do this if you need quality-certified software.
3) This has nothing to do with linux, beowulf clusters, or Linus Torvalds.

Re:Why? (1)

Pussy Is Money (527357) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132765)

Damn right! I'd much rather buy my clothes from the government, who has experts working on the problem day and night, than some handmade outfit by a glamorous designer!

Re:Why? (2)

Minupla (62455) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132731)

Read the previous article. The source for NAI's PGP was released. The change in policy was why P.Z. left NAI, but up till the very last version it was published source (as is traditional in cryptography software) so we could inspect the encryption and make sure it worked, and didn't contain any backdoors.

Why not... (2, Funny)

mstrjon32 (542309) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132531)

Just open source it...but then again open source and security software aren't best used in the same sentence.

Re:Why not... (0)

kiltedtaco (213773) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132549)

`Closed Source` and `security software` are allot more dangerous when combined.

Re:Why not... (-1, Troll)

l33t j03 (222209) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132556)

Software and Open Source aren't best used in the same sentence either, but I don't see you rambling on about that.

Re:Why not... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132565)

Because as we know, we should look to the closed source community (Microsoft, what?) for all our security needs. At least open source doesn't try to deal with security problems by denying they exist.

Re:Why not... (4, Insightful)

caspper69 (548511) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132745)

Because as we know, we should look to the closed source community (Microsoft, what?) for all our security needs. At least open source doesn't try to deal with security problems by denying they exist.

It didn't even take 10 minutes... Can someone tell me what PGP being open/closed source has to do with Microsoft? Last I checked NAI was the vendor of the product, and it was CLOSED source. From what I've heard this is an excellent product, and it's a shame to loose, no matter what plaform you run. Just because something is Open Source doesn't mean it's better. Do you think that the majority of the best coders do work for free, or for profit? And despite what you may think, some of the most talented people in this industry work at Microsoft (and NAI for that matter)... As for public vs. non-public disclosure of security issues, I'm sure that MS has plenty of reasons for NOT releasing their vulnerabilities. They have to take things into consideration that the Open Source community does not. With all the MS haters out there, as SOON as a vulnerability is announced, there are tens of thousands of script kiddies in their basement trying to wreak havoc on the Internet. Should there be vulnerabilities? No, but it's a fact of ANY software development. It doesn't mean there aren't a thousand people at MS slaving away trying to make their products better. Have a little more respect and appreciation for the scale of the systems we are even able to create nowadays. Damn zealots.

Re:Why not... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132807)

The biggest problem with PGP (IMO) is that Microsoft and Netscape never thought to integrate it into their mailers, instead choosing SMIME (which requires buying a certificate). Thus, PGP was always relegated to non-standard plug-in hackery.

Mod this crap down. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132832)

Hello??? DO you have a brain with which to think? The parent comment was about how software being closed source does not necessarily make it secure. Microsoft is an example of someone making software closed source and yet very *insecure*. Damn morons...

Re:Why not... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132916)

Just because something is Open Source doesn't mean it's better.

No but if something is free it is better!

Re: Opensource PGP (2)

scorcherer (325559) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132570)

Isn't GPG (an OS implementation of the PGP protocol) exactly what you suggest? It's been around for quite some time.

Seen as a bumper sticker... (5, Funny)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132657)

GnuPG. Because only the technically oriented deserve privacy.

Re:Seen as a bumper sticker... (0, Offtopic)

mmacdona86 (524915) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132841)

The 3,500 figure for Afghani non-combatant dead is highly disputed. In any case, and this may seem callous, it's kind of a drop in the bucket in the face of the death toll of their continuing civil war. By finishing the war quickly and efficiently, we probably saved Afghan lives in the long run.

Re:Seen as a bumper sticker... (1)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132914)

I was pointing out that a significant percentage of the death were terrorists, in response to This guy's sig []

Re:Seen as a bumper sticker... (2)

scorcherer (325559) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132940)

Shit! You told what the first G stands for.. I was anxious to have to explain 'GPG' as 'GPG Privacy Guard' which would fit the GNU humour, oops, I mean gnumour.

Re:Why not... (2, Informative)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132575)

The best way to run it is open source. There is peer review on open source programs, and also anyone who want to modify it (to get rid of keylength caps) can. If you think, you will sound more intelligent.

The source and encryption methodology betray nothing about how to decrypt a message. That is why PGP is pretty good. Also, is anyone really going to run a company that seems so inable to make money? As least people should have source to play with if they company is going under.

Re:Why not... (2)

aridhol (112307) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132714)

Um...because NAI doesn't want to? They own it now, I believe. And they want to profit from it somehow.

Re:Why not... (1)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132837)

Um...because NAI doesn't want to? They own it now, I believe. And they want to profit from it somehow.

Maybe they want to integrate it with some of these games. [] Surely there's lots of money to be made sometime in the future.

Re:Why not... (2)

Gaijin42 (317411) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132727)

Actually, any good encryption algorythm is not dependant upon the secrecy of the algorythm. It is dependant on the secrecy of the keys involved.

The formula for PGP, as well as twofish, blowfish, RC5, and every other major encryption tech in widespread use now is well known. Part of the process of becoming a good scheme is submitting the algorythm to acedemic (mostly mathematical and statistical) review.

Re:Why not... (1)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132781)

Ummm... except that encryption with computationally intensive cracks are only useful until the advent of real quantum computing, and then secret algorithms (or idiot codes) will be the only way to keep a secret.

Re:Why not... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132919)

No, there will always be new ways to muddle things up. As soon as computers are really fast, some age old previously unsolvable problems will become the source for new encryption schemes. We will never run out of prime numbers for instance - they go all the way to infinity and beyond... ;-)

Re:Why not... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132926)

Lenny Bruce, always said that the best humor was about the things that we're not supposed to laugh about.

Re:Why not... (2)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132929)

Just open source it...but then again open source and security software aren't best used in the same sentence.

PGP does not depend on keeping the code secret for security.

However the idea that open source automatically means good security software is not generally accepted in the crypto community. The canonical example being Kerberos whose design and code were public for 10 years before a major flaw was found.

The point is that the ability to review code does not translate into the code being reviewed and where security code is concerned who is doing the review matters. Open or closed source does not make as much difference as expert or inexpert review.

Most of the crypto code in use in closed source software is based on BSafe which has been extensively reviewed by at least as many crypto specialists as PGP.

It is a pity that folk talk about 'death of PGP' rather than 'using encrypted email'. How the email gets encrypted is not as important as the ability to encrypt. The major commercial email packages have been supporting S/MIME for a long time now.

First! (-1, Offtopic)

electricmonk (169355) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132532)

Oh yeah, get in Enya, Pr0n_K1ng!

Re:First! (-1)

real_b0fh (557599) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132590)

enya? newage composer/singer?


How to save Slashdot (-1, Flamebait)

l33t j03 (222209) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132534)

Buy a subscription, so they can sell your personal info.

fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132543)

1st p0st mofos

Save it WHY? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132552)

So that Ahmed and his Islamic friends can plan the next WTC attack? To hell with PGP. The world has changed.

Re:Save it WHY? (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132585)

The government has PGP backdoored anyway.

Re:Save it WHY? (4, Insightful)

Colosse (522266) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132613)

That's not the real problem. PGP don't create terrorist, and we all know that encrypted mail/files aren't the only way to pass secret information. I belive we should all care about crypto. Like Phill Zimmerman says roughly: E-Mails are like postcards, PGP is just a tool to get you mail messages into an envelope. Privacy is the real issue about tools like PGP, if you are willing to let it go, goverments, industries and peoples will sooner or later abuse you rights. You're not free when you are always looked upon.

YHBT. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132666)



The lesson learned is... (2, Insightful)

qurob (543434) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132554)

Make your pet projects free from the start.

Notice that Phil wants to release it under a BSD style license. As much as we'd all like that, it probably isn't going to happen.

Re:The lesson learned is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132715)

Phil's project was free from the start. Only gui version is not.

Re:The lesson learned is... (1)

Heinrich (118942) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132873)

PGP was free from the start, just check out the license of PGP 2.6.3 [] . But even if it starts free, copyright holders can turn their package into a non-free status in later releases.

MK-Ultra experiments on children (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132557)

CIA Experiments with Mind Control on Children

by Jon Rappoport

The CIA mind-control apparatus has been well known since 1975, when 10 large boxes of documents were released pursuant to Freedom of Information Act requests.

Several good books were then written on the subject of the CIA program known as MK-ULTRA. Officially spanning ten years from 19 52-62, MK-ULTRA involved the use of LSD on unwitting military and civilian subjects in the United States. LSD and more powerful compounds were given under duress as brainwashing and truth serum drugs. The program's aim was to find drugs which would irresistibly bring out deep confessions or wipe a subject' s mind clean and program him or her as "a robot agent."

In experimental test situations, people were given acid without their knowledge, then interrogated under bright lights with doctors sitting in the background taking notes. Threats would be made. The test subjects were told that their LSD "downer trips" would be extended indefinitely if they refused to reveal their closely-guarded military secrets. The people being interrogated in this way were CIA employees, U.S. military personnel and, abroad, agents suspected of working for the other side in the Cold War. Long-term severe debilitation and several documented deaths resulted. Much, much more could be said about MK-ULTRA.

None of this prepared people for the explosive testimony made on March 15, 1995, in Washington, D.C., before the President's Committee on Radiation, however. In unpublicized sessions, New Orleans therapist Valerie Wolf introduced two of her patients who had uncovered memories of being part of extensive CIA brainwashing programs as young children (in one case, starting at age seven). Their brainwashing included torture, rape, electroshock, powerful drugs, hypnosis and death threats. According to their testimony, the CIA then induced amnesia to prevent their recalling these terrifying sessions.

Both Wolf and her patients stated that they recovered the memories of this CIA program without regression or hypnosis techniques. In other words, these patients spontaneously discovered this information about themselves and their pasts.

Although the committee was mainly concerned with radiation, they permitted Valerie and her patients to testify because, astonishingly, several doctors who had administered the mind- control experiments had also been identified by other Americans secretly exposed to radiation. Apparently there was a crossover.

Prominent names surfaced in the March 15 testimony: Richard Helms, former head of the CIA, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, who ran MK- ULTRA and Dr. John Gittinger, Gottlieb's protege. These men and others were directly accused of participating in grisly mind- control efforts on children.

Predictably, this testimony received no media attention.

I now have it all, including many pages submitted to the committee that will likely never be released as part of their final report. Only a small percentage of the pages were read aloud at the hearing. Included are corroborating statements from other therapists around the country and several of their patients. I have now released all of this testimony as a book, U.S. Government Mind-Control Experiments On Children.

When the sickening shock starts to wear off, deeply disturbing questions flood one's mind: just what was this CIA program? How extensive was it? What was its purpose?

From what I have been able to discover so far, many American children, as well as children from Mexico and South America, were used over a period of about 40 years, starting around 1948. In fact, the program may still be going on. Doctors and agents who administered it wanted to obtain control over the minds of these children, ostensibly to create superagents who wouldn't remember even what missions they carried out, because of hypnotically induced amnesia (which could be removed by their controllers and reinstalled at will). (1)

Children were trained as sex agents, for example, with the job of blackmailing prominent Americans -- primarily politicians, businessmen and educators. A great deal of filming was done for this purpose. Eventually, people from the inner core of the CIA program filmed each other, and some of the centers where children were used as sex agents got out of control and turned into CIA-operated sex rings.

Some children were considered expendable and simply murdered.

One person who states that he was in this program as a child said, off the record:

"They tried out their brainwashing techniques on the kids from Mexico and South America. They were considered expendable. But on another echelon of the program, they went after the best and the brightest American kids. Making perfect agents to combat the Soviets wasn't, I don't think, their ultimate objective. I can't remember what that was."

At this point, I made a suggestion:

"Well, if they were choosing the best and brightest, maybe they figured these kids would one day rise to important positions in the society, and they wanted to gain long-term control over them, so they would be under their thumb, so they could tap them at will -- a way of controlling the future society."

"Maybe," he said. "The Nazis gained control over the intelligentsia in Germany. That was a very key step in their dominance. That was the first thing they did".

"This smells very much like a Nazi program in the U.S.," I said. "I don't mean all the controllers were German, but the style of it, the insanity."

He said, "They brought over a lot of Nazi doctors after the war and not just to build rockets -- for a lot of projects."

Other people who said that they had been used as children in the program remember that doctors with German accents were definitely present at the sessions. One therapist, who shared this information informally with colleagues around the country, states that, so far, the oldest person she has heard of who was in the program is now 52; the youngest is now nine.

Since a number of people who were brainwashed, tortured and drugged in these experiments try to resolve their experiences in therapy, psychiatrists and other professional therapists are hearing these stories. They are told, for example, that CIA controllers sometimes dressed up in Satanic costumes to further traumatize the children, also providing a cover that wouldn't be believed if the children ever talked.

It is worth noting that there is a movement to discredit these " recovered" memories, and the most prominent group, the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF), has several board members with CIA or military-intelligence connections -- including the notorious Dr. Louis "Jolly" West of UCLA, who tried to establish a center for "the study of violence" at the university in the 1970s. This center's specialty would have been psychosurgery, a horrendous melting of brain connections, supposedly to curb people's "violent tendencies."

FMSF maintains that a person always remembers abuse done to him or her, and therefore any new recovery of it in therapy is false and must have been fabricated through misleading suggestions by the therapist. While it is certainly true that such inducement happens in therapy, the blanket statement that all recovered memory is invented is unsubstantiated.

In a written statement to Dr. Wolf that was included in her testimony to the president's committee, well-known researcher and psychiatrist, Colin Ross said,

"Published articles in my files include descriptions of administration of 150 mcg of LSD to children age 5-10 years on a daily basis for days, weeks, months, and in a few cases even years. Neurosurgeons at Tulane, Yale, and Harvard did extensive research on brain electrode implants with intelligence funding, and combined brain implants with Large numbers of drugs including hallucinogens."

Ross based his report on his more than 20 years of investigating CIA mind control.

Chris De Nicola, one of Dr. Wolf's patients who testified before the president's committee, named her controller as a Dr. Greene, a name reported by several other mind-control subjects. It may well be that this name was a cover used by various CIA and military-contracted experimenter-torturers. Here is a quote from her testimony:

"[Dr. Greene] used me in radiation experiments both for the purpose of determining the effects of radiation on various parts of my body and to terrorize me as an additional trauma in the mind-control experiments. [She was eight years old.]

"The rest of the experiments took place in Tucson, Arizona, out in the desert. I was taught how to pick locks, be secretive, use my photographic memory to remember things and a technique to withhold information by repeating numbers to myself. [She is obviously talking about being trained as an agent.]

"Dr. Greene moved on to wanting me to kill dolls that looked like real children. I stabbed a doll with a spear once after being severely tortured, but the next time I refused. He used many techniques but as I got older I resisted more and more.

He often tied me down in a cage, which was near his office. Between 1972 and 1976 he and his assistants were sometimes careless and left the cage unlocked. Whenever physically possible, I snuck -into his office and found files with reports and memos addressed to CIA and military personnel. Included in these files were project, subproject, subject and experiment names with some code numbers for radiation mind- control experiments which I have submitted in my written documentation. I was caught twice and Dr. Greene tortured me ruthlessly with electric shock, drugs, spinning on a table, putting shots in my stomach, in my back, dislocating my joints and hypnotic techniques to make me feel crazy and suicidal..."

Is there a precedent for this kind of sadistic treatment by CIA and military personnel? Indeed there is. Here is a quote from the introduction to my book, U.S. Government Mind-Control Experiments On Children. It contains information from reliable published sources; such as The Search for the Manchurian Candidate, by John Marks (2), Acid Dreams, by Martin Lee (3) and The Mind Manipulators, by Alan Scheflin (4). In part, these authors derived their information on the CIA and MK-ULTRA from the ten boxes of information released suddenly in 1975 by the agency in response to Freedom of Information Act requests:

"Dr. Robert Heath of Tulane University, as early as 1955, working for the Army, gave patients-LSD while he had electrodes implanted deep inside their brains.

"Canadian researcher, Dr. Ewan Cameron, under long-term CIA contract, attempted to depattern, and reprogram his psychiatric patients' personalities wholesale. He started with 15 to 65 days of 'sleep therapy,' during which a patient was kept under nearly 24 hours a day, through the administration of cocktails of Thorazine, Nembutal, Seconal, Veronal, and Phenergam. Throughout this sleep period, the patient would be awakened two or three times a day for electroshock treatments, given at an intensity 20-40 times the 'normal' convulsion-producing strength.

"In the mid-1950's, Paul Hoch, M.D., a man who would become Commissioner of Mental Hygiene for the State of New York, then a laborer in the field for the CIA, gave a 'pseudoneurotic schizophrenic' patient mescaline. The patient had a not- unfamiliar heaven-and-hell journey on the compound. But Hoch followed this up with a transorbital leucotomy...Hoch also gave a patient LSD, and a local anesthetic, and then proceeded to remove pieces of cerebral cortex, asking at various moments whether the patient's perceptions were changing."

Claudia Mullin, the other of Dr. Wolf's patients who testified before the President's Committee on Radiation, said her experiences with CIA mind-control experiences began when she was seven years old:

"In 1958, 1 was to be tested, they told me, by some important doctors coming from a place called the 'Society' [the Human Ecology Society, a CIA front]. I was told to cooperate; answer any of their questions. Then, since the test 'might hurt,' I would be given 'shots, x-rays, and a few jolts of electricity.' I was instructed not to look at anyone's face too hard and to ignore names,' as this was 'a very secret project' but to be brave an all those things would help me forget...

"A Dr. John Gittinger tested me and Dr. Cameron gave me the shocks and Dr. Greene the x-rays...By the time I left to go home, just like every time from then on, I would recall nothing of my tests or the different doctors. I would only remember whatever explanations Dr. Robert G. Heath [of Tulane Medical School] gave me for the odd bruises, needle marks, burns on my head and fingers and even the genital soreness. I had no reason to believe otherwise. Already, they had begun to control my mind!

"The next year, I was sent to a place in Maryland called Deep Creek Cabins to learn how to 'sexually please men.' Also, I was taught how to coerce them into talking about themselves. It was Richard Helms (Deputy Director of the CIA), Dr. Gottlieb, Captain George White and Morse Allen, who all planned on filming as many high government and agency officials and heads of academic institutions and foundations as possible...I was to become a regular little 'spy' for them, after that summer, eventually entrapping many unwitting men, including themselves, all with the use of a hidden camera. I was only nine when this kind of sexual humiliation began."

Captain George White was a notorious agent for the CIA. He set up a brothel in San Francisco in the 1960s and, using hidden cameras, filmed men having sex with prostitutes. The men's drinks were "spiked" with LSD. In 1950, Morse Allen, another important CIA, man, was appointed head of Project BLUEBIRD, another CIA mind- control program.

Ms. Mullin states that she was adopted when she was two years old. By the time she reached seven she had already been abused extensively by her mother. Her mother apparently turned her over for "testing" to CIA-connected people and Claudia then entered a 27-year period of what can only be called enslavement. Claudia states that she has been monitored, that she is still monitored and watched by agency related people, including a medical doctor. Now living in New Orleans, she has given information to local police authorities about her situation. In her testimony to the president's committee, Claudia remarked,

"Although the process of recalling these atrocities is certainly not an easy task, nor is it without some danger to myself and my family...I feel the risk is worth taking."

Claudia's therapist, Dr. Wolf, has written to the president's committee,

"To the best of my knowledge, [Claudia] has read nothing about mind-control or CIA covert operations. Since she decided to listen carefully and remember as much as she could about conversations among the researchers, her memories are extraordinarily complete. I have sent written copies of memories to Dr. Alan Scheflin [author of The Mind Manipulators] for validation and he has confirmed that she has knowledge of events and people that are not published anywhere, that some of her memories contain new information and that some are already known and published. Some of her memories have been confirmed by family members. She has also shown me old scrapbooks where she wrote notes to remember what was happening to her and hid the notes under pictures in the scrapbook."

I spoke with Alan Scheflin in May of this year. He said he had found one piece of information Claudia had mentioned in her recollections that had no precedent in published material. It involved a connection between two government researchers.

This is just the tip of the iceberg on the 130 pages of testimony given before the President's Committee on Radiation, and it is also just the beginning of a history that will undoubtedly widen in the coming months and years. Dr. Wolf told me that when word got around she was going to testify before the president's committee, she was contacted by about 40 therapists "in just the 10 days leading up to my trip to Washington." The therapists had heard similar CIA mind-control stories from their own patients. Many of these professionals are afraid to go on the record about their patients' stories, as censure from their professional societies is a reality. The political mood these days is not conducive to granting an aura of credibility to revelations of CIA brainwashing.

So what else is new?

[Jon Rappoport is a distinguished investigative reporter and the author of AIDS, INC. He can be found inhabiting the late night airwaves of KPFK radio in Los Angeles and lecturing at the Hardware Humanitarian House in Santa Monica, California.]


1) See "From the Inside Out," Perceptions, March/April 1995, p.58
2) Paddington Press, New York, 1978
3) W.W. Norton, New York, 1979
4) Grove Press, New York, 1985

Re:MK-Ultra experiments on children (-1)

Mayor McPenisman (557253) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132621)

So you believe this garbage, or you just want to make me laugh? I could find a just-as-convincing article about alien abduction - probably written by the same hack. Basically, if no respectable publication has picked up on it I treat with contempt. Uh-oh, there are shadowy figures in control of our lives! Better call Mulder and Scully!

Fuck off, man. Try the copy and paste on news I might believe.

Re:MK-Ultra experiments on children (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132692)

There are pdfs at the national archive online about this program released under the freedom of information act. I will dig a up a link later.

Re:MK-Ultra experiments on children (-1)

Mayor McPenisman (557253) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132743)

I know MK Ultra was real, and I know they tested durgs on American citizens. I know of one (1) man who died because of it. In addition, my brother did a pretty in-depth report on the tuskeegee(sp) exp. So I totally know that the CIA are a binch of wackos. But when yokels say that a nine year-old has been part of the exps. then I laff and laff and laff.

Send me the link tho. I'll give it a spin.

Re:MK-Ultra experiments on children (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132846)

Alot of CIA files were released on the financial records of the MK-Ultra program, but I cannot find them online. Alot of knowledge about that program came from therapists and psychatrists, whose patients were part of the program.

You should read up on Operation Northwood. [] (The Document is a pdf.) It is an interesting read about how the government was brainstorming on creating an incident where they could make a positive military intervention in Cuba. They were brainstorming faking incidents were "Cuba" shot down a F16 and a passenger plane, to give them an excuse to invade.

Re:MK-Ultra experiments on children (1, Offtopic)

ajs (35943) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132874)


A bad start.

Experiments with Mind Control

It gets worse

on Children

Yep, gotta save 'dem chilluns! Where's the bastard! We'll lynch 'im!

by Jon Rappoport

Ok, if you didn't stop before this, you can now. This is the man who claims that AIDS is not a virus, but a secret weapon of the drug companies!

He's a real tin-foil-hat kinda guy (or just found a market among that crowd).

The CIA mind-control apparatus has been well known since 1975

Obviously, I failed to stop. Pardon me, but what is your definition of well known?

when 10 large boxes of documents were released pursuant to Freedom of Information Act requests.

Oh, well that's certainly an interesting metric for well known! (later he claims that J.R. is a highly respected journalist, but fails to indicate who respects him....)

Several good books were then written on the subject of the CIA program known as MK-ULTRA.

They were good books of course. Not like those powdery, tasteless books you serve your relatives!

LSD and more powerful compounds

I live that line. I'm going to have it framed.

In case you're wondering, as with most nutters, J.R. has hit on a thread of truth, and then run with it to the mythalogical end-zone of his own creation.

There really were CIA experiments on CIA agents and civilians alike with LSD in the 60s. The CIA thought that it might work out as a truth serum of sorts, but it was not very effective, and had very dangerous long-term consenquences.

However, much of the rest of this theory is based on these axioms: 1) If you testify about something to a government panel, it must be true 2) the CIA has nothing better to do with its time than recruit children to perform missions that there are scads of willing volunteers in the military for 3) events which have common themes are obviously linked.

I recommend that you do your own research here. Books like this one are aimed to scare and shock (that's how they sell). If the facts don't fit, they are often... re-shaped.

If you want to play "spot the loonies" just look for key phrases like "in [document/testemony/etc] the name [government or corporate figure] came up" cited as "proof" that linkage exists between an event and a group that the author wishes to accuse of wrong-doing.

Re:MK-Ultra experiments on children (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132896)

Hey I just copy and paste them. I do not even read half the shit I paste in.

Heres one that is interesting(this I actually read (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132909)

The Plea of Nikos Maziotis
to the Athens Criminal Court

First, I do not intend to pretend to be the "good guy" here where I was forced to come. I will not plead for anything, because I do not consider myself a criminal. I am a revolutionary. I have nothing to repent. I am proud of what I have done. The only thing I regret is the technical error that was made so that the bomb didn't explode such that my fingerprint was found on it afterward and I ended up here. This is the only thing I repent. And something else also. All that stuff shouldn't have been at my house. It should have been kept somewhere else.

You must have in mind that although you are judges and sitting higher than me, many times revolutionaries, and myself specifically, have judged you long before you judge me. We are in opposite camps, hostile camps. The revolutionaries and revolutionary justice (because I don't believe that this court is justice, it's the word justice in quotation marks) many times judge their enemies more mercilessly, when they get the chance to impose justice.

I will begin many years ago. We don't have any crime of mine to judge here. On the contrary, we will talk about crimes, but not mine. We will talk about the crimes of the state, of its mechanisms, of justice and police crimes....

The first time I can say I was politicized is when I took part in a demonstration in 1985. It was the 17th of November. I was fourteen then, and one policeman, Melistas, shot and killed a fifteen year-old, Kaltezas. I had not participated in the riots of that night. The same evening after the murder the Chemistry School was occupied and in the morning special forces carried out a police raid on the building to evacuate it and they arrested the anarchists and youths who were inside. The next day five thousand people occupied the Polytechnic School--if I remember correctly because I was young then and didn't have much information. These occupations were precisely a reaction to the murder of Kaltezas by policeman Melistas. "Justice," five years later, in January of 1990, found Melistas innocent.

What I mean by saying this is that in reality you are abettors of crimes, at least according to me. Then, in January and February of '90 I took part in the occupation of the Polytechnic, which occurred as a reaction to the court-decision which found Melistas not guilty for the murder of Kaltezas. There were riots and damages, store windows were broken, stones and molotov cocktails thrown.... I participated in these events. From then on I could consciously say I was an anarchist.

And when I say anarchist, I mean that I am against the state and capital. That our purpose is to subvert the state and the capitalist regime. We want a society without classes, without hierarchy and without domination. The biggest lie of all times is that the state is society. I think Nietzsche has also said this--that the state lies.

We are opposed to the division of society into classes, we are against a separation between those who give orders and others who obey orders. This authoritarian structure penetrates the whole of society and it is this structure that we want to destroy. Either with peaceful or with violent means--even with guns. I have no problem with that.

I will contradict my brother who said before that he didn't want the guns in order to make war. They were for war. Maybe they were just kept there, but the guns are for war. You don't just have them to keep them at home. I might have kept them as they were, but they are to make war and I make war.... The bomb in the ministry was an act of war.

Since 1990 I have been convicted many times for my actions, for multiform actions.

I was convicted because I refused to serve the army. Not because I have any problem with weapons or with violence, I repeated that in the military court. The fact that this time I was arrested in possession of guns means that I have no problem with weapons or with violence. I am not at all a pacifist. Because neither society nor the state are peaceful. As long as I receive violence I will respond with violence.

I spent seven months in a military prison. I have been convicted for deserting the army and for evasion of military services. The second time I was released after 51 days of a hunger strike.

I have been arrested in '94 in the occupation of the Economic university along with 51 comrades of mine, when Giorgos Balafas and Odysseas Kampouris were on hunger strike. This occupation of the Economic School was also an action of solidarity. In conditions where we couldn't gather anywhere, nor demonstrate, we had decided to squat a university and use it as a center of counter-information about the cases of Giorgos Balafas and Odysseas Kampouris, who were then imprisoned.

In '95 I was arrested with 500 other people in the revolt of the Polytechnic in November. That occupation happened because there were many different political prisoners in jail--Kostas Kalaremas, Odysseas Kampouris, Giorgos Balafas who was arrested again in the meantime, Spyros Dapergolas, Christoforos Marinos and four persons from Thessaloniki who were arrested when the demonstration in which they were participating was attacked by the police on the 14th of November--and because there was a prisoners' revolt going on in Koridallos jail. For this occupation I was at last sentenced to one year imprisonment along with many others of my comrades. In all these actions my comrades and myself have taken complete responsibility.

So, during this decade since I can call myself an anarchist, I have used many forms of action. I have written and distributed leaflets. I took part in postering. I participated in occupations, violent or peaceful. For example, the occupation of the Economic School didn't have any violent character but the Special Police Units and the Riot Police invaded and arrested us. There were even policemen of the Special Units wearing ski-masks who entered in order to break the chains on the gate.

In the case of the Polytechnic we didn't pretend to be innocent, still without accepting the specific charges we were accused of. We explained why we went in the Polytechnic. Some time after, when I was court-martialed in February of '98, I personally took responsibility for burning a Greek flag. I said that I burnt it. I consider it to be a symbol of a hostile force. With anyone having the Greek flag I see my enemy, because the policemen have it on their uniforms, and the marshals.... It is the symbol of the enemy.

Our purpose, within the anti-state and anticapitalist struggle, is to connect ourselves with the different social struggles. Our purpose also when interfering in these struggles is to attempt to take things to the edge, which means to culminate the conflict of these social parts with the state and the police. To urge the people fighting to transcend institutional frameworks--the trade- unions, the local administrations and all those manipulators who are enemies of human freedom. Many comrades of mine, with their small forces, were engaged in such struggles. I will tell you about them more specifically.

In 1989, in a struggle of environmental interest in the village of Aravissos, the resi

dents of the area didn't want their water sources to be exploited by the Water Company of Thessaloniki. They clashed with the police and the riot police, the burnt water pumps, set fires and built barricades.... And some of our comrades from Thessaloniki took part in this struggle and were even arrested.

In 1990 the aggression of neo-liberalism began in Greece (an aggression that internationally had begun in the '80s with the Reagan and Thatcher governments), including de-industrialization, workers' dismissals, privatization, restriction of the welfare state, reductions in salaries, pensions and medical treatment.... This attack that started in Europe and North America in the beginning of the '80s only started in 1990 in Greece.

The first project was the "problematic" companies. In that section also, during the period of 1990-91, there were occupations in many factories of the country--in Mantoudi, Lavrio, Patras. Again, some comrades of ours, with their small powers, were there. More specifically in Mantoudi and in the Piraiki-Patraiki factory which is located in Patras.

After that we have the pupils' movement of "90-91 which was a grand one in to my opinion. It managed to subvert the law of the Minister of Education Kontogiannopoulos, who finally resigned. The right-wing government, in its effort to repress the movement, had mobilized its thugs in order to smash the school occupations, resulting in the murder of a teacher, Nikos Temponeras, inside an occupied school in Patras. It was one more crime of the state. Here we will count the crimes of the state, no crime of mine.

Responding to the murder of Temponeras there was a demonstration of thousands of people. We participated too, to sharpen the situation. There were conflicts with the police, the Polytechnic was occupied once again for two days. Flames, barricades, damage.... There was also another crime those days, in the 10th of January "91. During the riots, tear-gas bombs thrown by the police caused a fire in the building of K. Marousi, a shopping-center in Panepistimiou street. Four people died there due to this fire. For this crime nobody has yet paid, nor did "justice" say anything. It was covered up.

One year after, in the summer of 1992, my comrades--not me personally but this doesn't matter--participated in the clashes around Votanikos central bus-station, when the government attempted to privatize Public Transports. There were conflicts between the workers and the police. Then, some workers in the Public Transports went to prison accused of sabotage. They were smashing private buses belonging to the ruffian owners who had bought them. There also, anarchists were present.

Before referring to the struggle in Strymonikos, I want to mention the most recent examples: the jobless teachers the previous year and the pupils' movement in the winter

of '98-'99. We were present there as well. A comrade who testified yesterday, Vasilis Evagelidis, tried to talk about it. He was arrested in the clashes that took place in January of '99 in a pupils' demonstration.

Generally, wherever there are disturbances, wherever there are conflicts we want to be involved--to subvert things. For us, this is not a crime. In a real sense, these disturbances are the "popular sovereignty" that professional politicians keep talking about. That's where freedom is expressed....

Now let's talk about the struggle of the people in Strymonikos. Long before I placed the bomb, other comrades had been in the villages. They had been talking with the people there. They had published a brochure about this revolt, about the clashes in October of 1996. But I will talk more specifically about the struggle in Strymonikos in a little while. First, I want to talk exclusively about the action.

To tell the truth, I was inspired to put this bomb for a specific reason: The people of the villages broke the usual limits by themselves. If it had been a struggle inside institutional frameworks--in the way that trade unions and local administrations try to keep these struggles restricted, if it was confined in a mild, harmless and nondangerous protest, maybe I wouldn't have done anything.

But the comrades up there in the villages--who are not anarchists, of course, but I don't care about that, they are citizens who also want their freedom--had exceeded every limit. They had conflicts with the police three times--on the 17th of October 1996, on the 25th of July '97 and on November 9 '98. They had set fire to police cars and vans of the riot police. They had burnt machinery belonging to TVX, they had invaded the mines of Olympiada and destroyed part of the installations. Some of them also made a kind of guerrilla war. In the nights, they were going out with guns, shooting in the air to frighten the policemen. And I thought, these people are cool. They've gone even further than us.

And then repression followed, especially in '97 when there was marshal law imposed in the area. The Chief of Police in Halkidiki gave an order according to which all gatherings and demonstrations were forbidden. They also sent special police units and police tanks, which came onto the streets for the first time since 1980. Now they were sending them out again in the villages of Halkidiki. So, I thought, we must do something here, in Athens. It is not possible that the others are under repression and we are here staying passive.

The ministry of Industry and Development, in Papadiamadopoulou and Michalakopoulou streets, was one of the centers of this case. The struggle in Strymonikos was a struggle against "development," against "modernization" and all this crap they keep proclaiming. What is hidden behind all these expressions is the profits of

multinationals, the profits of "our own" capitalists, Greek capitalists, the profits of states officials, of the Greek state, of the bureaucrats, of all those who take the money, of technical companies.... There is no relevance between this "development" and "modernization" they are talking about and the satisfaction of popular needs. No relevance at all.

So, I placed a bomb. The purpose was as I said in the letter with which I took responsibility for the action. In the passage of February '98 I said that in placing the explosive device my purpose was to send a double political message. Everything is political. Even if you use such means, the messages are political. War itself is a means of political pressure. In this case, this was also a political means, a political practice. First of all, a message to the people of Strymonikos that "you are not alone, there are also others who may live 600 km away from you but care." Not for personal reasons...I don't know anyone from there personally. Other comrades know people there. I haven't even been there. It was not my house that was threatened, but this is not the point.

Simply, my principle--and generally the principle of anarchists and of other non-anarchist revolutionaries--is that social freedom is one and inseparable. So, if freedom is partially offended, in essence it is offended as a whole. If their freedom is offended, mine is offended too. Their war will be my war, especially in an area where the "sovereign people"--again an expression used by professional politicians--does not want what the state and the capital want: the gold metallurgy of TVX.

On the other hand, I have said that, OK, there would be some damage--I knew that. Yes, I had the intention to cause material damages. So, what damage would that be? On the windows, on that certain place, what kind of damage? Or outside the storehouse where I placed the bomb? In my opinion the damages would be minimal. But even if they were more than minimal, for me it is not important at all. Because freedom can't be compared with the material damage of some windows, on a state car or state property. For me, the ministry is not an institution of common benefit as the charges say. Of state benefit yes, but of social benefit no.

However, even if the device did not explode, I sent my message. I was caught because I made that technical error and I left a fingerprint, but even if there was no material damage at all the message was sent. And you received it, the state received it, but also the people of Strymonikos received it. I know that they are saying I am one of them, even if they have never met me. There is nothing better than that. And of course, I repeat that I don't regret it at all.

I am a social revolutionary, and when you say that it is like talking for the benefit of society. Not like--it is for the social benefit. As I have this principle I couldn't harm any citizen. I could harm a policeman. I consider them my enemies. And you are my enemies too. I separate you. I make a clear class separation. On one hand we have those, on the other hand, we have the others. In this occasion though I intended to harm neither the policeman who guarded the ministry nor anybody else--and of course not a citizen.

The procedure that is used by groups or individuals in general is exactly this: you first place the bomb in your target and then you call to a newspaper. In this case, I called to Eleftherotypia and said: In half an hour a bomb will explode there. Exactly what is written in the evidence: "In 30 minutes there will be an explosion in the Ministry of Industry and Development, for the case of TVX in Strymonikos." By this sense, as it was proven practically and not hypothetically, the police arrived at the place in time. The first of them who went there surrounded and evacuated the area for 200 meters around the building, as the police specialists themselves admitted, so that there wouldn't be any car or person accidentally passing by. And then they waited for the bomb to explode. As they have already said, they were waiting for the safety time to expire, which is the 30 minutes that I had given! Whether the bomb would or wouldn't explode there was absolutely no danger for humans lives. In case that it exploded, there would be only material damages. So, it would happen exactly as was intended to happen. Objectively, if the device had exploded there was no chance of an accident, like exploding before or after the time given.

And exactly because of the message being political and symbolic, it was not in my purpose to cause extensive material damages; that's why I used a small quantity of dynamite. And I had the possibility to put five or seven or ten kilos if I had wanted to.... But I didn't. Since there were such things found in my house, I could have caused great damage, always talking about material damages! But I didn't. If I could have demolished the whole building of the ministry without having killed anyone, I wouldn't have any objection. It is another useless building for the people and for society. As I said before, the only thing I regret is the technical error on the device.

Now, I want to say something in advance. This action was performed only by me, I did it alone, there was nobody else. The message of course said "Anarchist Urban Guerrillas." This doesn't mean that there were other persons aside from me.... It was just an expression to imply which milieu I come from. Of course, I wouldn't use my name "Nikos Maziotis" to tell the newspaper where I placed the bomb. I'd say "Anarchists." That's all. I want to make it clear, finally, that the initiative for this action was mine only, there was neither a group nor an organization nor anything. And also, It doesn't appear even from the evidence that there was a group or an organization, that I would supply any group or organization. I was alone and the things found were only mine.

I want to refer more to what I call solidarity, to the motives that I had. What is this solidarity. I believe that people socialized-- that human society was created--based on three components: solidarity, mutuality and helping each other. That's what human freedom is based on. Any social group in struggle, in different space and time--whether they are pupils or farmers or citizens of local societies, for me and for anarchists is very important. It doesn't have to do with whether I am a worker and identifying my interests with the interests of that class. If someone asks for a higher salary or has a trade-unionist demand for me that is not important. For me, solidarity means the unreserved acceptance and support with every means of the right that the people must have to determine their lives as they wish, and not letting others to decide in default of them, like the state and the capital do.

That means that in this specific case, in the struggle of Strymonikos but also in every social struggle, for me what counts mostly is that they are struggles through which the people want to determine their fates alone. And not having any police chief or any state official or capitalist deciding what they should do. It is of secondary importance if they want or don't want the factory, if the focal point of the struggle is environmental. The important thing is that they don't want the factory because they don't like something imposed on them with violence.

Concerning the matter of political violence now, from the very beginning they tried to present a case of "repulsive criminals" and "terrorists" who "'blindly' placed bombs." Something that doesn't exist.

If theoretically terrorism is exercising violence against citizens and unarmed population, that goes exclusively for the state. Only the state attacks civilians. That's what the repression mechanisms are for: the riot police, special police units, the army, special forces...mechanisms that also rob the people. They finance armed professionals, policemen. Aren't they trained to shoot real targets? Aren't the riot police armed with chemical gas? To use them where? On citizens, in demonstrations and in manifestations. So, only the state exercises violence against citizens. I didn't use any violence against any citizen.

I will say exactly what terrorism is.

Terrorism is when occupations, demonstrations and strikes are being attacked. When the riot police attacked the pensioners who demonstrated outside Maximou four years ago. When Melistas killed Kaltezas. When Koumis and Kanelopoulou were murdered by the riot police in 16th of November 1980. And if I remember well, they were not shot, they were beaten to death. Terrorism is when Christos Kassimis was murdered. But I will refer more specifically to this case.

A group of revolutionaries had then tried to set fire to the German factory of AEG, in Redis. This was also an action of solidarity. I don't know if you are aware of that, but I will tell you about it. Then, in '77, some guerrillas of the RAF had died inside the white cells of Stammheim, in Stuttgart, West Germany. The white cells alone are terrorism. Prison is terrorism. So, then, some Greek revolutionaries went to burn the factory of AEG, as an action of solidarity with the RAF and also as a reaction to the murder of RAF militants in the prisons of Stuttgart. During this attempt, which was unsuccessful, somebody was killed. He was Christos Kassimis, shot by the two policemen, Plessas and Stergiou, who were guarding the factory. And according to what I have read, they didn't kill him because their lives where threatened, they shot him in the back. He died with a bullet in his back.

Terrorism is when special police forces invade the Chemistry School and beat up anarchists and youth. Terrorism is when Temponeras is murdered in Patras. Terrorism is when Christos Tsoutsouvis was murdered in '85. But this case also has something special and I want to point it out. To Christos Tsoutsouvis fits an expression of Thucydides-if you know about him, he is the ancient historian who wrote down the story of the Peloponnesian War--that "dying in the battle is an honor, followed by the acclaim of the citizenry." He may have been killed, but he also took three of them with him. For me, he was a warrior, a militant. I believe that society needs more persons like him.

Terrorism is when citizens are murdered by the police in simple "identification controls." I will mention some examples. I will tell about Christos Mouratis, a Rom in the city of Livadia, who was shot in a police blockade in October of 1996. He was an unarmed citizen. This is a crime. But "justice" did nothing about it, what would it do? It just rewarded the crime.

In 1997, Helias Mexis was passing by the street in front of the Transport Detention Center (for prisoners) and he was shot by the police guard Tsagrakos.

Theodoros Giakas was killed on January 10th 1994 by police officer Lagogiannis of the Moschato police station. This case is also quite peculiar. He was an unarmed citizen. He was stopped in the street for identity control. He ran away and the police shot him. Afterwards they said they found a knife in his possession and other crap. As far as I know, in the beginning he was shot three times. Probably all three shots were fatal. As Giakas was lying on the ground, Lagogiannis shot him another two times and even after that he handcuffed him! Are you aware of what "justice" did about it? Sentenced him to 12 years on probation. That's why I'm saying that your "justice" must be put in quotation marks.

Terrorism is when Ali Yumfraz, a Pomak from Vrilisia suburb of Athens, was arrested for being drunk and afterwards he was found dead in his cell in the police station. The police said he suffered a heart-attack and that this was the reason for his death. I can recall another incident, in January of '91, when a Turkish political refugee, Souleiman Akiar, was beaten to death by policemen. The Minister of Public Order had then said that the man had heart problems. But the medical examination found that there were bruises all over his body.

Terrorism is this court, here. Every trial of a militant, every trial of a revolutionary is terrorism, a message of intimidation for society. I said it before in my statement yesterday, when you called me to ask if I accept the charges, and I will repeat it. Because my persecution is political, the message is clear: whoever fights against the state and capital will be penalized, criminalized and characterized as a terrorist. The same for any solidarity with any social struggle: it will be penalized and crushed. This is the message of this trial and by this sense it is terrorism. Terrorism against me, terrorism against the anarchists, terrorism against the people of Strymonikos, who are also receiving similar messages during this period, as they have similar trials for their mobilizations. This is terrorism.

The fact that I put a bomb as an action of solidarity is not terrorism. Because no citizen was harmed by this action.

Many times, the media--sometimes even more than the police--promote a view of every action taking place (for example in molotov attacks) that "we almost had victims, almost, almost, almost...." But such a thing has never really happened. This is done to create impressions and these things are said so that there will be social consent for repression. So that I, for example, will be convicted with a long-term prison sentence. "We found someone who made the mistake of leaving his fingerprint. We caught him. And he says that he did it? Let's fuck him!" My language is a little vulgar.

I want to refer to the struggle in Strymonikos. Even if I have never been there I will give you some historical rudiments. The mines which have now been bought by the multinational company TVX Gold have existed since 1927. They used to belong to Bodosakis. In these mines, where numerous work accidents have taken place and many miners suffered pneumonokoniosis, there was a big bloody strike back in 1977. The strike had demands such as increases in wages, medical treatment, and security measures in the mines. At that time police tanks sent also sent into the area. There were arrests and convictions, with terrorism imposed in the villages.

In the late '80s the company was characterized as "problematic," like many others. The state, through METVA, planned the installation of gold metallurgy. In '92 the company, as "problematic," passed into the hands of the state and in December of '95 the latter sold the mines to TVX. But the residents of Strymonikos didn't want the construction of a gold metallurgy plant. More than seventy years of mining activity had already caused serious environmental problems.

This struggle has great importance, and that has been proven, for international reasons. The mobilizations started in the beginning of '96. The residents blockaded the national Thessaloniki-Kavala highway, they made guardhouses from which they supervised the mines and stopped any company truck that might try to pass or any machinery that would begin drilling activities. With these activities, the street blockade and the guardhouses, the people demonstrated: "We are here. You are not going to pass."

This way they forced the company to temporarily suspend its activities. On the 26th of October '96, TVX sent an ultimatum to the greek state and to the Ministry of Development, saying that "Unless the works start right now, we are going to leave." Their investment, which is the biggest private one ever made in the country, an investment of 65 billion drachmas, would leave Greece.

When the first clashes took place, on the 17th of October, and the residents managed to violently repel the police forces from the area, Jason Stratos, the president of SEV, stated that "these disturbances damage the integrity of the country abroad." And he was right, because "It's impossible that two thousand provincials (I don't mean this characterization in a bad way, but that's how the minister or the president of SEV mean it; that's how professional politicians and the political parties talk about simple people) will destroy our investments, not letting a Canadian company or any other foreign company come here and make investments. This reaction must end".

So, you can understand that this struggle had no restricted local character. It had international implications, because it created a precedent: "If we can't have an investment in Halkidiki, wherever a foreign investor may go it will not be able to proceed with the investment. If the people revolt and don't want what the state wants, the economy is through."

One year later, there was another attempt to start work for the installation of the gold metallurgy plant. In July of '97 the residents destroyed a drill belonging to IGME and clashed with the police. In November, they gathered and demonstrated at the mines. But some months before--in September, if I remember well--the state had predicted that the people's reactions would culminate and had sent hundreds of policemen from Thessaloniki. They had also sent riot police from Athens, special repression police units and police tanks, which as I said before appeared in the streets for the first time after 1980 when they were used to suppress demonstrations. There was a whole army of occupation installed there permanently. The police knew that there would be riots again so they had prepared a military force to repress the residents. As it happened, of course, it wasn't completely successful because the police were defeated in clashes that took place on the 9th of November. And as I have said before police cars and riot police vans were destroyed, the drill of the company was set on fire and finally guerrilla activities took place, in which shots were fired to frighten the police.

As I have already said, I was very much inspired by these events to put the bomb in the Ministry of Industry and Development. On this base I want to repeat that this struggle had no simple local character. It had transcended that.

For us, for the anarchists, social struggles and solidarity are beyond national limits. For me and for my comrades, struggles that take place outside the borders of the Greek state have a great importance.

There is huge importance for me in the Zapatista guerrilla that has burst out in Chiapas in 1994. It is one more struggle against neoliberalism, a struggle that is carried out with guns, with masks, a real war. It involves political violence and I am not against that. I have never made any statement against it and I do not want to pretend to be innocent.

Of great importance for me is also the movement of Brazilian farmers without land (the MST) who occupy the land of the estates in order to cultivate it collectively.

There is also great significance in the movement of the jobless people in France, who made occupations in working offices and clashed with the police during the winter of '97-'98.

Also important is something that took place in Turkey and that is similar with what happened in Strymonikos with TVX. Another multinational company, EUROGOLD, tried to make a comparable investment in Pergamos. And it is very important what I am going to say now. It was in the village Ovancik of Pergamos, if I remember correctly. The residents of that area, Turkish farmers, successfully frustrated the EUROGOLD investment, in the same ways that the people of Strymonikos have used to so far prevent the installation of gold metallurgy. The people of Pergamos made blockades in the Ismir-Istanbul highway. They clashed with military police forces. And, coincidentally, there was again someone who placed a bomb in the offices of the investing company, in Ismir. Like I did here.

So, as you understand, all these practices are part of social struggles, they happen everywhere. And for us, not only are they not crimes, but they are an honor. We are proud of these practices.

Concerning this factory in Pergamos, the Greek media, the Ministry of Public Works and the Ministry of Aegean had been hypocritically saying that if it was constructed it would pollute the Aegean sea. But they are not saying the same for Strymonikos Bay. So the factory in Turkey must not be constructed, but in Greece it is all right. Here the hypocrisy of the Greek state, of the media and of the politicians is obvious.

I don't believe that you really judge me as a "terrorist." I don't believe that you judge me for "having the purpose to cause danger to human lives." This is just a pretext. In fact, you are judging me for what I've said until now. For who I am. For being an anarchist, for believing what I believe, even for my past. Because all of these are aggravating elements: "So, you were in the Polytechnic occupation, you were in the Economic School occupation, you are an objector to military service, you were here and there...." I don't have a "previous decent life," according to you, of course, because according to me I am a very decent person. In reality, you don't judge me for supposedly having the purpose of harming people.

In fact, the state has proven that it does not care for the citizens. On the contrary, when its domination must be consolidated, the state takes away human lives, as I have said in the examples I gave before. The only thing the state wants is to conserve a monopoly, the monopoly that "Only I, the state, can take away human lives."

Only the uniformed police, the secret police, the riot police or the special police can take away human lives. Everyone else who does it is a criminal. But when the state does it, it proves to be unassailable.

Whenever citizens were killed, "justice" has accepted the police allegations. Not because it believed them but for reasons of interest. It always accepts the allegation that "the bullet lost its way," that supposedly "the policeman's gun had accidentally fired," or that he was supposed to be "in legal defense." In reality though, all these examples that I mentioned before, and I have more to mention, are cold-blooded murders. Very few policemen were ever accused and all of them are out of prison and proud of what they have done. Proud!

A witness for my defense said something before about the case of Alekos Panagoulis. And it is true that the attempt of Panagoulis to murder the dictator Papadopoulos was an action applauded by the Greek people. It was an attempt to kill. And so what? Who did he try to kill? A dictator!

Rationally one can oppose the argument that back then there was a status of military junta and that the means of political violence were justified to be used as a means of political pressure in the time of dictatorship, but now we have a "parliamentary democracy." Now we have "freedom" and we have "rights." Well, I don't think it is exactly like that. With all I've said I don't believe there are rights. They may exist on paper, but in reality there is nothing.

I will mention certain occasions of the political reform period, the time of the presumed democracy, where people have been killed within social struggles. It was once again proven that the people still don't define their fate just because the constitution of the state changed in 1974. Specific examples: The first disturbances took place, as far as I remember, in July of 1975. Also in May of 1976 for one more time the police tanks appeared in the streets of Athens. Laskaris, the minister of Employment of Karamanlis' government had then made a new law, Act 330, an anti-worker and anti-strike act. On the 25th of May '76 there was an all- workers' demonstration.

There were clashes with the police, an assault at the offices of "Bradini" newspaper..., molotov cocktails and fire... Then, a police tank which was chasing after demonstrators killed Anastasia Tsivika, a 67 year old saleswoman. Nobody was ever accused of this murder.

In other cases, there were new drafts of laws voted in the parliament without asking anybody's opinion. For example in 1990 there was a revision of the agreement considering the continuation of the American military base operations in Greece. The people of Chania did not accept that... In June of 1990 they had a demonstration which was attacked by the riot police. As a reaction, the people clashed with the police and burnt down the Prefecture of Chania.

In 1991 the farmers of Heraklion province set fire to the building of the Heraklion Prefecture. As you can see, political violence is exercised by everyone. By all of society and by every social segment or class that is threatened.

What the state wants is to deal with everyone alone. You must have heard an expression that Prime Minister Simitis is using a lot, speaking of "social automatism" whenever social reactions burst out. He uses this expression in order to present these social reactions--the blockades in the streets, the squatting in public buildings and all the actions of this kind--as being in contrast with the interests of the rest of society. Something that is a total lie. It is just the tactics of "divide and rule," which means "Spread discord to break solidarity." Because solidarity is very important as anyone who is alone becomes an easy target.

When a workers' strike takes place and there is no solidarity it is easier to attack. They talk about a "minority." This is the argument of the state, that it is "a union minority having retrogressive interests which turn against modernization, against development, against all reforms," and all that nonsense. Well, there hasn't been one social segment or social group that hasn't come in conflict with the state--especially during the '90s, and that hasn't been faced with the argument that "You are just a minority," that "Your struggle is in contrast with the rest of society's interests."

That is exactly what happened in all cases. It happened with the workers in the "problematic" companies who were squatting their factories in '90-'91, with the pupils who occupied their schools in '90-'91 and recently in '98-'99. The same thing happened with the workers in Public Transport in '92, with the farmers who blockaded the national highways in '95 and in '96, with the teachers' mobilizations against the repeal of the calendar and the new exam. The same thing happened of course with the people of Strymonikos.

What is really being attacked is solidarity. And that's what is also attacked--without any disguise--through my trial. The state wants to attack everyone alone. Because when it finds them together things are much more difficult.

Police brutality is, of course, not sufficient for repression. Coming back to what I was saying before, I have concluded with the fact that the difference between dictatorship and parliamentary democracy--or should I better say capitalistic oligarchy--is that the first one is mainly imposed by raw violence and the latter, the presumed democracy, is mostly imposed by the intellectual control of the citizens, through the weapon of the mass media, through deception. Because I don't believe that people voting for their bosses every four years means they have their freedom. They vote for them but when they're not doing what they were elected to do, people can't get rid of them.

In ancient Athens this didn't happen. In ancient Athens everyone could speak in the public assembly. Anyone could express an opinion, no matter how modest his position was. And those having a public position could be removed by the people at any time.

But democracy has also proven that when deception and intellectual control of the citizens are not enough, it has no problem resorting to police violence, killing, torture and terror.

Finally, I am not on trial because I placed a bomb, nor because I possessed three guns and ten kilograms of dynamite. After all, the army and the police have a lot more guns than me and they use them. The one can't be compared with the other.

I have nothing else to say. The only thing I'll say more is that no matter what the penalty to which I will be sentenced--because it is certain that I will be convicted--I am not going to repent anything. I will remain who I am. I can also say that prison is always a school for a revolutionaries. His ideas and the endurance of his soul are experienced. And if he passes this test he becomes stronger and believes more in the things for which he was put in prison. I have nothing more to say.

The judge: Don't turn the cameras to the bench!

Public prosecutor: In the beginning of your plea you said that you had the guns for war. Don't you see a contradiction when you say that there was no danger for human lives?

I made clear that none of my activities is turned against citizens. I already made that clear. Where is the contradiction?

Public Prosecutor: You said the guns are for war.

Yes but not for the people. For my class enemies. Look, I never said that I am a humanist generally. Nor a philanthropist, because the meanings of these words are degraded. In everything that I've written--if you have read--and in everything that I've said I made clear who are my friends and who are my enemies. Not on a personal but on a social level. Who are my social and class friends and who are my social and class enemies. In the letter with which I took responsibility for the action as well as in my defense I said that society is another thing from the state.

I will go on to be more specific for the jury. On the one hand I place the state, state officials, the police, the army, the security forces, capitalists, and on the other hand I place the rest of the people: workers, farmers, pupils, the whole of society, the majority of the people, the oppressed people.

Public prosecutor: You talked about "justice" putting the word in quotation marks. What ground for complaint do you have against justice?

I have been in prison for the last 18 months. I have personally stayed in prison for 18 months and another 7 months in military prison. Simple and close examples. You are speaking of me, personally, are't you?

These laws are made in order to suit your interests. From these laws you are earning your bread. Your job is to send citizens to prison and to oppose the argument that policemen have committed murders but don't go to prison for it. I have already criticized the job of this "justice" you are talking about. That finally there are two weights and two measures. The matter is not what the law says or what the penal code says, but what really happens. Just like in the case of terrorism.

For example, the US consider PKK to be a terrorist organization, but not UCK. In the beginning UCK was considered, by the US, a terrorist organization but afterwards it wasn't because its existence was convenient for their plans. Isn't that right? The US did not consider Contras to be terrorists, when they were going to invade Nicaragua, but they considered all the left revolutionary movements and guerrillas terrorists.

Public prosecutor: I will refer to the danger you said something about. Didn't you know that the bomb could cause danger?

If I knew? I knew that it would not cause any danger. The procedure is stereotyped and it goes exactly like that: you make a telephone call to a newspaper for warning, then somebody from the newspaper informs the police, the police arrive at the place and blockade the area surrounding the target. In my case, they did blockade the area and the police specialists in neutralizing explosive devices who were then present have already testified that the blockade was safe for a range of 200 meters. So there was no danger for human lives. For material damages now, I told you my opinion about them....

I want to complete what I was saying before to the public prosecutor, about terrorism on an international level. In reality, for this moment, the US are the global gendarmery and terrorists, as the only great world power left. Which means it is the worst thing on earth. And according to our perception--as anarchists--the state, all the states and all the governments are antisocial, terrorist mechanisms, since they have organized armies, police, and hired torturers.

I also want to complete what I was saying about having two weights and two measures. For example, the US provides weapons, financing and instigating every dictatorial regime all over the world. And in Greece as well. In Latin America, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Peru.... This is terrorism. Terrorism is to arm dictators, to arm death squads in Argentina or in Bolivia in order to kill people of the left, citizens, revolutionaries. Those who equip the death squads to torture, those are the terrorists.

Terrorism is when they bombard Yugoslavia for ten days, killing civilians....

Excuse me, Mr. prosecutor, but the US is the one which pronounces who is terrorist and who isn't. Its State Department issues official directions, advising Greece about who is a terrorist. In this period of time, it places pressure on the Greek state to make an anti-terrorist law, a model of law which will criminalize those who fight, making laws more draconian than those already existing. This is terrorism.

The revolutionaries and militants are not terrorists. The terrorists are the states themselves. But with this accusation, with this stigmatizing (as terrorism) all the states and governments try to criminalize the social revolutionaries and militants inside their countries--the internal social enemy. In fact, the state, "justice" and the police face me also as this kind of enemy. As an internal social enemy. On the basis of the division I described before. That's the way the state sees it. This is what is ventured in this trial.

Public prosecutor: What do you have to oppose to what exists?

Social revolution. By any means necessary.

It is generally proven, because I am well versed in Greek as well as in international social and political history, that never did any changes happen, never did humanity meet any progress--progress as I conceive it--through begging, praying or with mere words.

In the text I sent to take responsibility for the action in which I said that I placed the bomb and which was published in Eleftherotypia newspaper, I said that the social elite, the mandarins of capital, the bureaucrats, all these useless and parasitic people--who should disappear from the proscenium of history--will never quit their privileges through a civilized discussion, through persuasion. I don't want to have a discussion because you can't have a discussion with this kind of people...

I would like to add something. Precisely because I have studied a lot, (I know that) during the events of July of '65, a conservative congressman of the National Radical Union came out and said about those who went into the streets and caused disturbances when Petroulas was killed, that "Democracy is not the red tramps but we, the participants in parliament," which means the congressmen who are well paid.

I will reverse that. Popular sovereignty, sir judges, is when molotovs and stones are thrown at the police, when state cars, banks, shopping centers and luxury stores are burnt down. This is how the people react. History itself has proven that this is the way people react.

This is popular sovereignty. When Maziotis goes and places a bomb in the Ministry of Industry and Development in solidarity with the struggle of the people in Strymonikos. This is the real popular sovereignty and not what the Constitution says.

I forgot to commemorate militants who have been murdered. Christoforos Marinos was murdered in the port of Piraeus, inside the ship "Pegasus" in July of '96. Michalis Prekas was murdered by the Special Police Units in October of 1987 in Kalogreza. Tsironis was murdered in Nea Smyrni in 1978.

I also want to add something concerning to what Mr. Prosecutor said yesterday, during his speech, on the matter of humanism.

I will mention an event that happened abroad, to prove who are humanists and who aren't after all, who are the real criminals.

The Tupac Amaru guerrillas occupied the Japanese embassy of Peru in December of 1996. They took more than a hundred hostages and these hostages were not just citizens. There were ambassadors, diplomats from many states, Japanese businessmen and officials of the Peruvian regime--which is quite far from being democratic. They were demanding the freedom of their militants, the release of their organization's leader and of other comrades of theirs who were imprisoned in dungeons.

Not only didn't they hurt any one of the hostages but they even released almost all of them--that is to say who are really the humanists. On the contrary, after endless and exhausting negotiations, the Peruvian special forces invaded the embassy and executed every one of them in cold blood. I tell all that in order that we know who are the criminals and who are the "humanists"--in quotation marks, because I don't like this term and that's why I don't use it a lot.

I want also to mention some things that happened here in Greece. I want to speak for Charis Temperekidis, who may not have been a political militant, but for me he was a rebelling penal prisoner. He had been kept in prison for years. He also died with his gun in hand during a chase after the robbery of the Agricultural Bank in Klitoria, Achaia. Despite the fact that he was still alive when caught by the police, he didn't inform against his accomplices. In the past he had taken part in prisoners' revolts, like the one of 1987 in Kerkyra in order to close this place of punishment.

And there is one more case--if we want to discuss crimes once more, the case of Sorin Matei. When Matei kept a policeman as hostage, the police didn't make any move to arrest him. When Matei took civilians as hostages, the police couldn't care less about their lives. In order to strengthen their prestige the police invaded the apartment where Matei had taken shelter, resulting in the death of a young woman. The criminals were more the policemen of the special units than Sorin Matei. As criminal as the manager of Nikaia general hospital, Alexiou, who ordered the transportation of Matei to the prison hospital Agios Pavlos, where he died either from the beating he suffered by policemen or by the drugs they were given to him. That explains who is criminal.

Mr. Kr4ntz (-1)

BankofAmerica_ATM (537813) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132569)

The body's hands trembled a bit. Two days without notice from Project Faustus and now a note from this "Krantz," (a Faustus operative, to be certain) requesting a meeting at the nearest Starbucks. Who was this Krantz? Had I met him before? Should I conduct myself in the steely protocol of business associate or the jovial style of an old friend? The note itself, hand-scrawled messily enough to tax my character-recognition algorithms, seemed to suggest that we were old friends. However, a careful analysis of the syntax and diction revealed an empty tone. Empty but affable. Preparing for this meeting was going to be difficult.

Five minutes later, I was clad in Atkins' most impressive suit (black with red pinstripes) and ambling through the Starbucks entryway. The time was 14:03:27 CST, and the place was nearly empty. A gaunt man with large glasses waved me over to a booth in the corner. He stood up excitedly as I made my way to the table, knocking over several emptied cups of latte as he offered me his seat. I sat down, sizing him up as best I could. His exterior resembled that of a normal human, but I noticed his movements were a bit different. Straining my ears, I picked up the faintest hint of a humming sound.

"Well, here I am, it's me! Jay Krantz!" he said, beaming at me, as if I should be impressed. "I bet you think that I'm here to punish you. That I am a grim enforcer, an out-of-touch political atavism solely concerned with those who step out of line in our little project. That's not the case at all. Step this way, please." Krantz motioned towards the bathroom. Atkins' face must have betrayed my reluctance.

"I understand your concern," said Krantz, "an invitation from a male into a Starbucks bathroom is certainly taboo, especially to those raised on a diet of Big Media and Big Corporations. But I just want to get a little-(here, he indicated his nose) before we go. You're welcome to some if you want."

I followed him into the bathroom, wondering what he meant. As we entered, he bolted the door and produced a small metallic box from his pocket. "In this Post-Columbine, Post-9-11, Post-Corporate-Colonization-of-the-Internet period, one needs a litlle extra to keep the parts running smoothly," he explained, opening the box to reveal a heap of white powder. "Help yourself."

"Is it...Lik-M-Aid?" I stared longingly at the powder.

"I suppose you could call it that. Whatever it is, it's good shit."

I pinched together as much of the powder as I could, splashing it across my lips. But the delightful sweetness of LIK-M-AID was nowhere to be found. It was a bitter, chalky candy, the type I normally avoid. I gulped it down, not wishing to upset Krantz. He winced and the rest of the powder disappeared into his nose.

"Ahhhhh!" he exhaled, his breath nearly singeing my eyebrows. "Okay, let's go, shall we?" As he staggered towards the door, I detected an unusual amount of heat radiating from his body.

"Where are we going, Mr. Krantz?" I inquired, scanning his face thoughtfully. This was the longest exchange I had yet shared with a human; I needed some feedback on how skillfully I was progressing.

"Oh, it's a little place I like to go when I celebrate. A place that is unlikely to stimulate you intellectually, but is nevertheless an enjoyable and irreverant ride!" He motioned me into his vehicle, a gigantic silver sport utility vehicle, pasted with small signs reading "Think Globally, Act Locally," "Free Dmitri!", and "Keep Your Laws Off My Body." Puzzled, I allowed myself to be swallowed up by the vehicle and whisked away. My heart began to race as Krantz nudged the car around quick turns, nearly flattening a human bicyclist in the process.

"Old technology," he grinned, extending the center finger from his left hand. "But I digress. I'm sure you're dying to know more about me! Go ahead, ask away!" How was Krantz able to discern my hunger for knowledge? Perhaps my cover was slipping...but I would be foolish to pass up an opportunity to learn more about Project Faustus.

"How did you become involved in Project Faustus?" I stared at Krantz earnestly, trying to express my deep interest in a manner that he could not ignore.

"Oh yes! Well, Project Faustus wasn't always involved in your field-you know, networking and wetworks-to-digital transfer. It's been around since at least the forties, and I hopped in around the seventies, you know, during the oil crisis, when our national leaders faced a time of trial in which...oh wait, we're here." He ambled his car into a parking lot. I could already detect the strains of rock music emanating from a large building nearby. I peered up to see a large neon sign that said this: PT'S Exotics XXX!

"They have a great buffet here!" explained Krantz, pushing me towards the building's entrance.

A burly man stared at me as Krantz handed him some money. Then the man handed some of the money back to Krantz. "Want some ones?" asked Krantz. "Don't worry, this is all on me." I grasped the wad of one-dollar bills, noting the differences between those and the twenties which I had once processed so often.

Krantz then drew back the black rubbery curtain, and so many sensual experiences exploded into my perceptions that I can scarcely describe them all. Small, contained explosions of colored light blasted around a raised platform. Rhythmic pounding usurped my ears and shook my organs. As I struggled to compose myself, I spied a human form pulsing and vibrating in the midst of the lights (seemingly sick and disoriented). I stared at the human, unable to pry my eyes away from its vibrating form.

"Wow, her tits are more inflated than the dot-com bubble in 1998, wouldn't you say?" it was Krantz's voice, and then his hand (a bit cold) slapping me on the back. "Why don't you give her a little venture capital?" He pointed at his own stack of dollar bills, then over towards the light.

I palmed the sweaty wad of cash in my suit. I looked at the human, gyrating and glistening in the semi-darkness. I felt a stirring...

RTFA (4, Insightful)

BlackSol (26036) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132580)

This isn't the end of PGP. OpenPGP is always going to be around. (or almost always - its open but everyone could decide to trash it if they like)

This is the end of commercial PGP. This isn't a good thing for PGP to be used in commercial settings. Also this is the end of the PGPDesktop which was the only thing close to an option for (l)users.

Hopefully NSI will release the code in a manner that will allow a smaller company to add value and repackage it to large corporations.

I don't want to save pgp (-1)

neal n bob (531011) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132582)

pretty gay penis's don't need to be saved.

Let's create a /. Corporation (5, Interesting)

Choco-man (256940) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132595)

/. get's about what, a million unique hits? NAI put 36 million into PGP, and since they're not finding a buyer, we can assume they'd be willing to take somewhat less for it.. let's say 25 million. If /. changes it's subscribtion pay pal account instead to be a funding house to purchase PGP, each user could donate 25 dollars,and we'd have a co-op that now owns PGP. This co-op could then market it as an inexpensive payware product, available for download complete with source code for a $5 license fee. This rids the need for /. subscriptions by generating income, opens the most current version of source code up for review, and allows independant programmers to modify this source code to continually improve the product.

A win win situation! 8-)

IANAL. This is tongue in cheek. I hate having to explain myself...

Re:Let's create a /. Corporation (1)

kolevam (452046) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132647)

Aren't they dumping the PGP dept because they can't make any money off of it? What makes you think this co-op /. corp would be able to?

Re:Let's create a /. Corporation (1)

Choco-man (256940) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132678)

because they're not open sourceing the code, and charging 50 bucks a pop. i suggest open sourcing the code, charging 5 bucks a pop.

'course i also said it was tongue in cheek. it's an interesting idea, but i can't imagine the administrative duties involved with maintaining a co-op of that size...

Re:Let's create a /. Corporation (1)

kolevam (452046) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132689)

Aside from whether or not it was viable... I thought it was a pretty cool idea! :)

Check this box to GPL abandonware (4, Funny)

dattaway (3088) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132653)

I was doing my taxes today (oh joy) and marked the box that mentioned something like $3 to the Presidential election campaign fund. Perhaps we could have a few donation check boxes to buy lucrative abandonware into the open source world.

Then again, sometimes it might be good to just start some projects completely over. Remember Netscape?

Sorry, I don't believe in paying for software. (0, Troll)

$beirdo (318326) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132705)

Sorry, I don't believe in paying for software. Or charging for it. Ever.

Re:Sorry, I don't believe in paying for software. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132824)

Geez Stallman, how many troll accounts do you have??

Re:Sorry, I don't believe in paying for software. (3, Informative)

pete-classic (75983) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132888)

Your reply might be funny if it weren't 180 degrees out of phase with the real universe.

To see what RMS actually thinks about this subject see .

From that page:

Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible -- just enough to cover the cost.

Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.

Then again, when has an AC let reality interfere with the contents of his posts?


Re:Sorry, I don't believe in paying for software. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132882)

why would you pay for food etc then?
It still has been work put into it, and thats what you have to pay for, stupid dumbgnufuck

Re:Let's create a /. Corporation (1)

donutz (195717) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132716)

"This co-op could then market it as an inexpensive payware product, available for download complete with source code for a $5 license fee."

Ok, so what license is this hypothetical corporation going to put the code under? Is it going to be some yet-to-be-concocted proprietary license? Will it be a GPL or BSD license for the source code in general, but pay the $5 for the commercial "do as you like" license? If it's a Free license, then what's to stop someone from taking the source and putting it up on sourceforge for all to download? If it's not free, then what's the incentive for people to improve or add to the code?

Its an interesting idea and all, and I like open source as much as the next guy, but I dont see a viable business plan here. Keep trying....they say something like 95% of businesses fail. 19 more tries and maybe you'll have a winner.

Re:Let's create a /. Corporation (2, Funny)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132851)

I'd be happy to set this up. If everyone would send their money to my PayPal account, we could get rolling. You can trust me, I have over 6000 positive eBay transactions!

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (1)

joshjs (533522) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132603)

Isn't PGP kind of a dead end, ultimately? Based on my limited (and quite possibly wrong) understanding, as quantum computing research continues, it will become possible to break this encryption. Right?

Re:Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (2, Insightful)

Choco-man (256940) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132616)

of course, advances in magnetics and flight will eventually make tires on land vehicles obsolete too. unfortunately, neither of them has advanced to the point of feasibility yet, nor has quantum computing. until such time as that happens, there's a need for good ol' fashioned tires. or encryption.

Re:Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (1)

Captoo (103399) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132659)

Eventually it will be dead for this reason, but we can still get many good years of life out of it. Even when someone builds a suitable quantum computer for cracking PGP, there won't be very many such computers around for many more years.

Re:Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (1)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132752)

(on topically) speaking of quantum breaking cryptography...
Is there any type of encryption that is uncrackable with quantum computers?

Re:Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132794)

One Time Pad.

Re:Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (1)

BlueFall (141123) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132869)

It's already possible to break any encryption. The feasibility is the issue. Using brute force techniques, PGP takes a long, long time to break using today's computers, but it is possible. Quantum computers (if they are ever constructed) will only make the process much faster.

Re:Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but (2, Insightful)

mmacdona86 (524915) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132901)

People discuss quantum computing as if it were inevitable, when in fact it is not at all clear that the difficulty of getting n bits entangled in a quantum computer does not scale as exp(n)--in other words, the difficulty of getting a quantum computer working may scale just as quickly as the computational advantage you get from it. A useful quantum computer being impossible to build would not be surprising at all. Lots of neato quantum effects are in fact impossible to scale to the macro world.

Why save PGP? (2, Troll)

crush (19364) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132610)

specifically what does it add over GPG? Would it not be better for GPG if PGP were to die?

I actually have no objections to it being presevered and developed, especially if it were Free Software, what I'm asking for is reasons for it to be preseved from the point of view of Free Software advocates.

Re:Why save PGP? (4, Insightful)

aridhol (112307) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132725)

specifically what does it add over GPG?

Usability? GUI?

how is this flamebait i dont know (1)

Edmund Blackadder (559735) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132748)


Chomsky's Statism: An anarchism for the next 1000 (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132617)

"Noam Chomsky is seen by many as one of the more prominent anarchists in the united states. But, many times in the last several years he has come out publicly in favor of strengthening the federal government. Moreover, he argues that there is no contradiction between this stance and his advocacy of a stateless future. Such a position is in direct conflict with the traditional anarchist insight that means inevitably influence (and frequently corrupt or totally derail) intended ends, and deserves examination and rebuttal.

Chomsky bases his support for the federal government on his contention that private power wielded by corporations is much more dangerous to people than state action, and that government can, and should, protect its defenseless citizens against the depredations of the capitalists. While the power of private corporations in the united states is truly awesome and oppressive, this power exists because these businesses are supported by the state, a point that Chomsky concedes. Anarchists have generally opposed the state for precisely this reason: that it protects the interests of some, primarily the wealthy exploiters, while preventing others, especially working people, from challenging this power on their own. But, because of poor and working people's movements, the state has instituted some social welfare programs and instituted some regulation of private business to ameliorate the conditions of those most harmed by state-supported capitalism. These and other alleged public services are the aspects of government power that Chomsky supports and would see expanded.

Chomsky further argues that the state is the only form of illegitimate power in which people have a real chance to participate. Besides the question of whether it is moral for people to participate in the exercise of this illegitimate power, he doesn't make a very convincing argument for his contention. In one interview he states that the pentagon budget is going up, while the population oppose this by a 6 to 1 ratio. In another article he says that government regulatory mechanisms are very weak, and mostly controlled by the corporations anyway. He even quotes a poll in one of his interviews to the effect that 82% of americans feel the state is not run in the interests of the people. Nowhere does he back up his claim that government is or has been open to popular participation in any meaningful sense.

Governments have been influenced by popular pressure, however. The anti-war movement made it impossible for the military to use nuclear weapons in southeast asia, thereby preventing a united states conquest of vietnam. Anti-racist activists in the sixties and seventies pressured governments at all levels to eradicate racist laws and practices and brought about the end of most legal segregation. But these are not examples of people participating in government. Instead these are instances of outsiders (which regular people will always be vis-a-vis the state) bringing pressure on an evil institution to change its ways.

Such measures can also bring about change in private institutions as well. The labor movement brought about changes using pressure tactics such as strikes and sabotage against private businesses, and activists have assisted workers with boycotts and public actions directed at corporations as well. While it may be easier in some settings to win concessions from government because individual politicians wish to be elected in the sham of elections, people acting for themselves can often accomplish great things on their own in both the public and private arenas.

Government is a package. The welfare state is also the warfare state, and, while Chomsky criticizes the federal government's support of prisons and corporations, he thinks government can protect people from prisons and corporations. He says that people can participate in government, but complains that it is not under popular influence. Government is force and should be done away with. People can act for themselves and take care of themselves. That is the anarchist attitude to the state, and Chomsky rejects it.

In fact, he is troubled that people might hate or fear the government. He admits that the state steals from poor people to subsidize wealthy people, but he thinks discussions about whether the government can be trusted to care for poor people are irrelevant. He dismisses as far-right the rejection of public schools. He feels that when people feel disillusioned about power, they turn to "irrational" alternatives. He arrogantly states that those who think there is a contradiction in supporting centralized state power even though one opposes it "just aren't thinking very clearly."

Chomsky seems not to be able to envision any means of offsetting the power of private tyrannies other than increasing the power of public tyrannies. Chomsky speaks glowingly of the efforts of poor people in places such as Haiti. "Poor people, people in the slums, peasants in the hills, managed to create out of their own activity a very lively, vibrant civil society with grass-roots movements and associations and unions and ideals and commitments and hopes and enthusiasm and so on which was astonishing in scale, so much so that without any resources they were able to take over the political system," He seems to see their assumption of state power as a victory, unable to envision that people this resourceful could continue to function quite nicely without a government. And people are this resourceful, both in haiti and the united states, and this is where anarchists get their inspiration.

Even Barbara Ehrenreich, a social democrat, and, with Chomsky, a member of the New Party, can countenance non-statist solutions to working and poor people's problems. As she says, "[W]e can no longer allow ourselves to be seen as cheerleaders fro government activism.We need to emphasize strategies and approaches that do not depend on the existing government, that in fact bypass it as irrelevant or downright obstructionist." She then goes on to mention organizing the unorganized, citizen initiatives against corporate abuses, and non-governmental self-help projects in the tradition of the feminist health centers of the 70s. In addition, she sees the state as a clear enemy in its erosion of civil liberties and the growth of the punishment industry. She calls her approach "progressive libertarianism." Such an outlook is closer to an anarchist one than is Chomsky's.

Unlike Chomsky, many rightly see that government schools educate badly, government welfare does not serve poor people well, and government action is largely against the interests of regular people. He is right that private corporations are not in the business of being humanitarian, but neither is the state. Instead of criticizing and fearing this anti-government feeling, we should encourage it and seek to extend it to all areas of government, including the military, police, and taxes.

Private corporate power exists only because it is protected by the state. Government reduces competition and limits entry into the market place with various licensing and regulatory schemes, and grants monopolies and subsidies to favored businesses. Chomsky himself concedes that corporations would not be successful if forced to submit to market discipline, and that markets are under attack. But in addition to actively promoting concentration of private corporate power, the government prevents people from defending their own interests in disputes with corporations with its police powers and laws that disarm working people. Such disempowerment of people makes them unable to resist the power of public institutions as well, allowing the state to tax, regulate, and imprison people at its whim. Abolishing state power is a more effective and libertarian method of limiting private and public tyranny than is increasing the scope of the federal government. Only anarchist means have any hope of producing anarchist ends."

GPG, OpenPGP, and what needs saving (5, Insightful)

PureFiction (10256) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132618)

In the article Phil focuses on easy to use GUI interfaces for less technically adept end users as the major feature that the OpenPGP/GPG projects need to focus on. This is the main advantage that the commerical version provided, and the main thing lacking in all the other alternatives.

He clearly states that the PGP protocol is in no danger whatsoever, and will continue to remain widely implemented.

Having spent many hours deciphering gpg command lines to use PGP to its full potential makes you realize how usefull a simple, easy to use GUI interface to a PGP would be. (Implicit in this task is integration with other applications, however, you can find plugin support for almost anything that you wish to use PGP in)

Re:GPG, OpenPGP, and what needs saving (3, Interesting)

aridhol (112307) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132681)

How 'bout putting the algorithm into a library? If there's one library for PGP (written in ISO-standard C), front-ends could be written for it for any platform. One back-end to watch for major bugs, and front-ends that allow the interfaces people are used to.

GPGME - GPG Made Easy (4, Informative)

Cadre (11051) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132803)

How 'bout putting the algorithm into a library?

GPGME [] is a project to do this. From the website: "It provides a High-Level Crypto API for encryption, decryption, signing, signature verification and key management."

It's a work in progress. It's useable, but of course, there is the standard disclaimer. Compiles fine on most Linux distributions. It needed a small amount of help to compile on Mac OS X. Not sure about any other OSes.

Re:GPGME - GPG Made Easy (4, Insightful)

aridhol (112307) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132848)

Compiles fine on most Linux distributions. It needed a small amount of help to compile on Mac OS X

Yes, but in the Real World we still need to support Windows.

Note that GPGME isn't really a GPG library. It uses the GPG command-line behind the scenes, so it is inherently unportable - you can't get IO from another running process in ISO C.

When I suggested creating a PGP library, I meant a true library. Make the code ISO9899 compliant, then the only issue is linking it to the front end.

Re:GPG, OpenPGP, and what needs saving (4, Informative)

PureFiction (10256) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132894)

How 'bout putting the algorithm into a library?

This has been asked many, many times of the GPG developers, and they always have a very sound, technically reasonable explanation: Making a shared or static library for the GPG code would be a security risk.

Once you have the code linked in (statically or dynamically) you can do Bad Things to the GPG code. Manipulate static variables, change environment settings, corrupt memory, all in an attempt to compromise security.

This makes integration a bit more difficult, but there are still a number of wrapper libraries that provide similar functionality using fork() and exec() with the command line.

Personally I prefer a bit more integration effort with more security than vice versa.

I don't get it... (4, Insightful)

Ryu2 (89645) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132631)

The commerical PGP is only one implementation of the open PGP standard. Even up to 6.5.8, full source code was available from Network Associates.

Plus, there is GPG, PGPi, and other freeware implementations of the standard (under the umbrella of

I don't see why "PGP" as a whole is going down.

It's like saying if Microsoft or Netscape decided to stop relasing browsers, then the entire WWW is doomed, when there's still Konquerer, Opera, Mozilla, and the whole W3C standards body, etc...

Open Source probably the solution but not BSD! (4, Interesting)

Semi_War (163701) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132633)

I've read the article and can derive three possible solutions.
  • Slick interface
  • Good sponsor
  • Open source
Since a slick interface would mean development and they current development is in limbo(with two shipable inferfaces in stock!!) I really don't think that an option. Second option is a sponsor, but since nobody is willing to buy pgp, I don't really think sponsorship will be attrictive to sponsors. Leaves only one option :)

How to kill PGP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132669)

This is purely for scientific and study research.

RSA-500 = 18971941337486266563305347433172025272371835919534 28303184581123062450458870768760594321234762576642 74945547644195154275867433811981387466471553446001 28172402854835142675669719253496205220699188798491 81484706819044791457088226110939902411592763469776 33946326637808872646881505242830850704932797792349 29990615521801952267534305575027779393713330209195 00860225343124870843796867881478506011320772871728 19942445113232019492229554237898606631074891074722 42561739680319169243814676235712934292299974411361

= 37427121770620583091321424754741224398401700943136 92569409724669036067145935665469179209556046350643 13650735649742880036461009375273062497609978034621 28542518686344030635843911820718776925659054905814 34421018260726150246940722888295355624667254579581

* 50690356190784613421943974050297488274739179470394 18122726805813382156225921428772801214922594206458 07834997795076354606802490111106153804429088209985 42738154413103798892589988519726447464444686565204 60558816777620924293750629417010292417375848211381

Sorta Phil's fault (3, Informative)

argoff (142580) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132700)

If he would have put it under the GPL from the beginning we would not be seeing this. He would be like the Linus of crypto, but he was so determined to controll the things he shouldn't be controlling that he lost controll over the things he should be.

Re:Sorta Phil's fault (3, Insightful)

Slynkie (18861) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132761)

Or, since back in 1991(?) when Phil first started his PGP work there was virtually NO corporate use of GPL'd software, PGP would have buried itself.

I think it was definitely advantageous to have the corporate support of PGP in order to get it entrenched (however deeply it is) in the business world. Now, with commercial PGP going away, it's possible companies will have no choice but to move to open sourced alternatives and implementations if they wish to keep their security and privacy intact.

Re:Sorta Phil's fault (2, Informative)

FrostedChaos (231468) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132799)

Grow up.

The PGP algorithm was not Phil Zimmerman's to sell. He basically made a freeware version of a popular commercial program, using their proprietary algorithm, and spread it all over the internet. He did this because believed that people should be able to avoid government surveillance on the internet. Whether or not you agree with him (I do), "encryption for the masses" is now a reality.

I would be willing to guess that Phil was more afraid of government agencies like the CIA, KGB, and FBI, than of Microsoft and Cisco. It is only slashdot readers who can't understand the difference between a corporation, which can take away your money or your job, and a government, which can take away your life or your freedom. Having to pay $1 extra on a DVD is not oppression. It may be unfair. It may be something you should write to your congressman about. But it is not opression. Oppresssion is being shot because you supported the wrong political candidate, like in the U.S.S.R. under Stalin.

Re:Sorta Phil's fault (2, Funny)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132880)

Oppresssion is being shot because you supported the wrong political candidate, like in the U.S.S.R. under Stalin.

My friend, there were no wrong political canditates in Stalin's day. Because they were all dead.

GUI Interface (3, Informative)

TheMatt (541854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132712)

One app that is going a along way to making PGP slightly easier is Evolution. It has the best PGP solution I've seen yet for email. Easy and simple to use, even Joe Barr [] agrees.

But, the problem is you still must maintain your GnuPG bits manually on the command line. That was the beauty of NA's program. It had a slick GUI. Of course, in the end it didn't take me very long to pick up how to use gpg via the command line, but for the general populace it's still a barrier.

Re:GUI Interface (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132786)

There is gpgp.

Re:GUI Interface (1)

TheMatt (541854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132943)

Aye, there is GPGP, but I like my programs to have active development. Looking at their website, they stopped about 2 years ago. Maybe the product was bug-free enough to stop development, but that often isn't the case.

PGP is Dying! (-1, Flamebait)

LunchLady (555057) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132740)

PGP is of course dying. Making it open source will simply lead it to a long slow death much like Linux itself. I forsee microsoft purchasing this and putting it into the operating system itself.

On the server side (4, Interesting)

SirSlud (67381) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132802)

What about the possibility of PGP technology being a part of the next major upgrade of open internet protocals (ie, POP, SMTP, etc .. )

It seems to be that possibly losing out on the client-side 'niceness' that a commercial PGP implementation provides could be a non issue if the next round of standards include support for providing PGP mechanisms as part of their protocols (not that you'd HAVE to use PGP, but that PGP would somewhere in the protocol if you wanted to use it.)

That would reduce the need to depend on the never-surefire client market penetration in order to see widespead and longterm usage of PGP as a means of protecting ones privacy.

I've always felt open protocols make the best vehicles for propogating public-interest technology. That way, you dont need [Mailclient] + [PGP intergrated client] but [Mailclient that supports Next Gen Protocol X] where one of X's functionality sets uses a private/public key encryption scheme. Not sure what the likelihood of that happening is, tho, both from the perspective of when we'll outgrow the current crop of protocols, whether the new crop will be open enough to get public interests into the design phase, and whether the creators of said protocol would even think it would be a good idea to include a PGP layer in the protocol. :)

Stephen King, author, dead at 54 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132810)

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

grammar check (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132817)

"got some"? Christ, READ the fucking article before hitting SUBMIT.

Scandelous (5, Interesting)

SirSlud (67381) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132820)

> And what's scandalous is that NAI has OS X and XP-ready versions, but won't ship them.

We need some laws that force work into the public domain if it wont be exploited for the private domain. I'm sick of companies keeping what will go into the dustbin. This is another example of how too much private interest can /create/ inefficiency in a market rather than reduce it.

Of course, I respect that the work in question would probably have to pass some criterium whereby its release into the public domain would not cause significant damage to the company in question (if the company is to live on), but surely we can't believe that scenarios like this outweigh the benifits of laws forcing companies to push work they lose interest/money in back into the public domain?

Re:Scandelous (2)

DeadPrez (129998) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132863)

We need some laws that force work into the public domain if it wont be exploited for the private domain.

Let me be the first to say: No, no we don't.

If you want software they wrote and they won't give it to you, find an alternative, write it yourself, anything else.. But for the love of god, don't pass silly laws like this. How tragic that would be...

Re:Scandalous (1)

gartogg (317481) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132886)

Basically, you believe that people should be forced by big brother to share what they developed. This is on par with very few bad ideas that I have seen on /.. If I am an inventor, and I am eccentric enough to want to keep my inventions to myself, it's my business.

An economic system can NEVER be more intelligent that the people who control it, whether it's the combined brains of a million entrepreneurs, or a communist dictator. The best we can hope for is inccentifying intelligence, which laise-fair capitalism seems to do best.

(Don't mod me down because you dislike my opinions, but feel free to mod me up if you agree )

Re:Scandelous (1)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132900)

We need some laws that force work into the public domain if it wont be exploited for the private domain.

I like the word "force". I get all mushy-eyed thinking of Our State using more force. Of course, under threat of force, companies will just stop developing stuff. Or should we force them to?

Re:Scandelous (2)

crimoid (27373) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132912)

Is it really the right of the people to say what private citizens must give and give up? From a governmental perspective corporations are not that much different from a private citizen. Having laws that "force" companies to essentially "give up" hard-earned intellectual property is akin to walking into your neighbor's garage and taking some tools he hasn't used in awhile. Sure you may use the tools that your neighbor is "wasting", possibly putting them to better use, but it just seems plain wrong.

Does anyone have any doubts as to WHY? (0, Flamebait)

andrewski (113600) | more than 12 years ago | (#3132879)

I have this uneasy suspicion that this is directly related to the Dubya-ment's new crackdown on freedo^H^H^H^H^H^H terrorism. Sure I'm paranoid, but the new McCarthyism may be farther-reaching than anyoine thinks.

Re:Does anyone have any doubts as to WHY? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3132936)

Let's see. They announced the PGP sale on October 11... exactly 1 month after September 11. They announced all sorts of layoffs and plans on that same day which would take at least 2-3 weeks to have put together. That means the decision to kill PGP must have been made around September 18. Are you getting more suspicious yet? Start.
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