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How Mac OS X is Changing the Mac Community

pudge posted more than 12 years ago | from the best-of-both-worlds dept.

OS X 98

rgraham writes "Derrick Story (O'Reilly Network editor) has written a follow-up article to The New Mac User, titled The Changing Mac Community. He makes some interesting observations about how Mac OS X's Unix underpinnings have greatly 'broadened the landscape' of the Mac community beyond that of typical artists to now include hardcore Unix users and the like." I personally believe this is the single most important component to Apple's continued success for the near future.

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well (3, Insightful)

gtx (204552) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143122)

i for one know that i'm going to be making the pc to mac switch within the next couple years, first switching over my home and work machines, then my studio machines to mac. i've come to the realization that i don't really *need* an x86 for anything anymore. everything that i need to do on a daily basis can be done by a mac, and the new UI is just beautiful, and i like the hardware too.

-c

Re:well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3143718)

Use a CAPITOL I! Your lack of self esteem makes me want to vomit!

Re:well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3144986)

spell 'capital' correctly! your lack of education makes me want to kill you.

Re:well (1)

T3kno (51315) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145983)

JUNEAU

Average Mac User here... (2, Interesting)

joedames (130760) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143128)

We use macs at our business (medical / healthcare ) because we find the user experience is the easiest we can deliver. I am proud that some of our less computer savvy users have no problem operating their macs. However, the fact that at some point we will need to upgrade those users to OSX is a somewhat scary notion. Some of my experiences with system maintenance and overall operation of the OS, IMO, escalate the knowledge level required to be a successful computer operator. This is great for me, but kind of stinks with regard to the level of support I will be required to deliver.

Re:Average Mac User here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3144888)

The support might go down if you don't hand out administrator privileges to everyone.

Re:Average Mac User here... (1)

joedames (130760) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146193)

uhh... ok! (???)

Resistance to OS upgrades (1)

Bravo_Two_Zero (516479) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143151)

In the dark, old days, I'd have to say I'd echo the comments of the designers quoted regarding adopting an OS, even if it has superior qualities. We'd wait until our service bureau or printer (when we did direct-to-plate) forced the upgrade issue on us. When that day comes for OS X, I'm sure the designers will find lots of creamy goodness in a more modern OS.

And, I can agree with the I-hate-Aqua camp, too. I don't personally hate Aqua, but Macs by and large are used for very specific tasks (even in the design community, you're heavily specialized in many cases). The traditional Mac users want some familiarity, particularly as one becomes used to having all the real estate of a 21-inch monitor for your QuarkXPress pages or detailed Illustrator vector image. I still recall that At Ease bullcrap from System 7 and the doofy rounded widgets in System 8 that took longer to render on older systems.

Re:Resistance to OS upgrades (1)

feloneous cat (564318) | more than 12 years ago | (#3170526)

Hmmm... I have used Macs from everything to the "specific" task of writing code to the "specific" task of designing my ranch to the "specific" task of keeping the books to the specific task of running a server to the "specific" task of... I've been running OS X on a 450 Mhz G3 and have been perfectly pleased with the response. Do I want a spiffier system? All the time, but it works and works quite well, thank you very much. Perhaps you wish to remain stuck in the past (everytime I "drop back" to 9.2 I remember what a PITA it really is). Life is better at X.

UNIX is a big reason for my switch. (5, Interesting)

EnVisiCrypt (178985) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143169)

For the last 8-10 years, I was a wintel user. I used Windows 3.1 - 2000 for it's ease of use as well as the presence of my web development language of choice (ASP).

I'd tried Linux, but I found it too unwieldy for everyday use. Too many hassles with hardware support, etc. I love the idea, I just couldn't get used to the trouble of routine maintenance.

Over the past 3 or so years, I've been using *nix systems more and more for web development (PHP, PERL), and I've enjoyed them more thoroughly than Windows. The flexibility of the CLI, the wide availability of development tools as well as the stability has made it particularly attractive. The only problem? I also do design work.

GIMP is a wonderful program, but it's just not robust enough for full time graphics production. For that, Photoshop is where it's at. And until now, the only options were the stuffy, static, and generally untweakable MacOS, or the generally unstable, unpleasant, and ugly Win9x dynasty.

Enter Mac OS X. My first experience with OS X was at an Apple store near my home. I fell in love with the interface. But an interface does not a good OS make. While playing around, I noticed there was a lot more to tweak and configure, and lo there was a CLI. I popped "VI" into the prompt, and there it was. Pine, check. Apache, check. Everything I knew and loved about the *NIX's was there. Within a week, I had bought a spanking new dual g4 and I couldn't be happier.

I have to use a Wintel box at work and it's sheer hell. I couldn't be happier about switching to OS X.

Re:UNIX is a big reason for my switch. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3143343)

> Pine, check. Apache, check.

Pine doesn't come with Mac OS X. You need to install it yourself.

Re:UNIX is a big reason for my switch. (1)

EnVisiCrypt (178985) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143466)

It was on the Demo Box at the Apple store. I discovered that it wasn't on my fresh OS X install. Quick download solved that.

New Machead (3, Interesting)

ScumBiker (64143) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143226)

After much hand-wringing and stomach-churning, I just got my new Mac on Saturday. I say it that way because I've never had a Mac before. I sprung for a dual 1GHZ G4. I've always built my own PC's before this, so it's a humongus change for me just to buy a pre-built machine, much less something as alien as a Mac! Luckily, I found out how to fire up the terminal right away. A command line! Whew! I'm home baby! I downloaded XDarwin that same day. Aqua is an in credibly beautiful GUI, and I get to run Xwindows apps on it. Ya know, I really look forward to participating in the new, growing Mac community.

Re:New Machead (1)

Johnny Mnemonic (176043) | more than 12 years ago | (#3147138)


Welcome. You're off to a great start--you even capitalize 'Mac' right. For the record: "Mac" is a brand of computer. MAC describes a logical network interface.

As to community, here's my daily MacWeb cycle, FWIW:
Also, subscribe to MacWorld for it's business-as-usual approach, and MacAddict for it's screaming fanaticism--although I've never met the staff, I wouldn't be surprised if they wore "Don't trust anyone over 30" buttons.

Hope you and other new users found that interesting. Don't forget the Genius Bar at the retail store--it's designed as a resource, not just as a data dump, but also a social gathering. I've often observed members of the community help each other when the Geniuses were busy, and your Unix feedback is decidedly helpful to long-time Mac Heads.

Re:New Machead (2)

ScumBiker (64143) | more than 12 years ago | (#3152054)

Great info! Thanx. I wish there was an Apple store around here (Madison, WI). I'll probably have to go to Chicago to find one. Oh well ,I'll be talkin to the Mac users group in the area.

Me and a Mac (1)

keiferb (267153) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143575)

I'm really curious about Macs, what with all the OS X hype and all... I'd love to try out OS X to see what the buzz is all about, but I'm afraid I'll keep trying to click my nonexistant right mouse button and run screaming into the night. I guess what I'm trying to ask here is: What kind of machine do I need to run OS X and have it be fairly responsive? After all, if I don't like it, I can always use another Linux box. =)

Re:Me and a Mac (1)

rehannan (98364) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143778)

In regards to the single-mouse-button issue...

I've always been quite confused at the Mac population's insistence on only using one mouse button when they have 5 fingers. That's way i've never bought one of those snazzy PowerBooks.

However, my new employer uses mostly Macs with OS 9 (many of our apps don't work in OS X classic mode). I've found that if you're actually using Mac OS and you slap a nice 4 button USB mouse on there, the extra mouse buttons really don't do you much good, since the OS is more-or-less designed for only one button. Hence, there isn't anything for the extra buttons to do.

Re:Me and a Mac (2)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144141)

You have two hands, so why don't you use two mice?

Re:Me and a Mac (3, Informative)

Graff (532189) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144207)

However, my new employer uses mostly Macs with OS 9 (many of our apps don't work in OS X classic mode). I've found that if you're actually using Mac OS and you slap a nice 4 button USB mouse on there, the extra mouse buttons really don't do you much good, since the OS is more-or-less designed for only one button. Hence, there isn't anything for the extra buttons to do.
You can fix that easily. Go to VersionTracker [versiontracker.com] and download USB Overdrive [versiontracker.com] . The link is for the MacOS X version, but there is also one for MacOS 9 and earlier. The MacOS X version still in beta but it works very well and has no bugs that I know of. What it does is it allows you to set each button on a USB mouse or joystick to do one of many different actions such as double clicks, triple clicks, activating things, etc. It's a totally great utility.

That being said, there is really very little reason for non-power users to have more than one button on a Macintosh. You can do everything on the operating system with a one button mouse and even where a right-click would help you, all you have to do is to control-click instead. The main reason I have a different mouse is for the scroll wheel. If Apple came up with a one-button scroll mouse I would probably be very happy just using that.

Personally, I think the mouse should be one of the build-to-order items. Have the standard Apple mouse be the base item and allow the user to upgrade it to different ones like a 3 button with scroll, a trackball, wireless mice, etc. More choice is better in my mind.

Re:Me and a Mac (1)

rehannan (98364) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146431)

Thanks for the info. I'll give that a shot.

Re:Me and a Mac (2)

IronChef (164482) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144982)

since the OS is more-or-less designed for only one button. Hence, there isn't anything for the extra buttons to do.

Not true. There are many places in the Mac OS where a control-click is useful -- map one of your extra mouse buttons to control-click and you will see all kinds of shortcuts.

The OS doesn't require >1 button, but it CAN benefit from it. I use it all the time.

Re:Me and a Mac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3180739)

Just keep your main button pressed for the time it would take you to triple-click and you WILL see all those shortcuts.

Re:Me and a Mac (2)

ScumBiker (64143) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143800)

Just for your info, you aren't stuck to a one-button mouse. I'm using a wacom tablet, with a pen and a 5 button mouse. Really, most USB mice will probably work just fine. All a right mouse button is for on a Mac, as far as I can tell, is to emulate holding "control" as you click. The rest are pretty much for surfing and such.

Re:Me and a Mac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3143808)

Responsiveness: It depends on what you want to do, but don't buy any G3 based machines. If you have the cash, get a dual processor machine with a decent gfx card.

Mouse: Just buy a cheap optical logitech mouse, plug it into the Mac's USB port and off you go. Works like a charm out of the box. Mousewheel, right mouse button, everything.

Re:Me and a Mac (2, Informative)

tarkin (34045) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143858)

I recently bought a second hand G3/400 Powerbook ( Firewire ) with 384Mb Ram and it runs OSX perfectly. You can feel that OSX demands alot more of your machine than for instance GNOME, but because you become much more productive on the platform that really isn't a problem.

If you compare Nautilus under YellowDogLinux on the same box to the finder ( and all that other aqua eyecandy ), OSX wins by a long shot.

I was a Linux86 user before , never even owned a mac before , but if you're talking pure User Experience and productivity ,MacOSX really does a great job. File Management is a lot easier, and all that Multimedia stuff we need works right out of the box. I can watch DVD's, use Dual Head out of the box, plug any usb/firewire peripheral into the thing and continue working. And you can run XFree,bash and GNU stuff with Fink ( I still user abiword for my small wordprocessing needs for instance.)

So just buy yourself a Logitech USB mouse and you're al set to enjoy MacosX.
And if you don't like it , you still can run Linux. YellowDog does a great job of supporting almost any feature of my powerbook ( sleep! ) so try that one out.

Re:Me and a Mac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3147185)


I'd love to try out OS X to see what the buzz is all about

If possible, make it to an Apple Retail Store. Their machines are set up for just that sort of experimentation. You could even bring a multi-buttoned USB mouse and plug it in to see if it's something that you really need.

I would say that any of the 800Mhz G4s and above feel very responsive--that's top end iMacs (currently shipping in quantity and likely in stock in a Retail Store as I post) and any of the G4 towers.

No store near you, you say? Um...wait a while :)

Blue and White G3 350 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3151382)

Running 10.1.3 and have no complaints. Runs everything just fine -- Maya PLE, Illustrator 10, Office X -- all run at acceptable speed. The secret is gobs and gobs of RAM (896 MB). If I buy a new machine any time soon, I will definitely hang on to this one as it has run very nicely.

Re:Me and a Mac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3157422)

guys, FYI, OS X automatically maps control-click to the right mouse button on my intellimouse explorer.

Old users. (4, Interesting)

saintlupus (227599) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143594)

Oddly, a lot of the new blood is replacing the old die-hard Mac community. They made it through the Spindler and Amelio years, but just can't stomach the new operating system.

I'm one of the Mac support techs at a college, and I'm seeing lots of "give me OS 9 or give me death" sentiment lately.

--saint

Re:Old users. (2)

pudge (3605) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144504)

saint, I am in the "Give me Mac OS 9 or give me death" camp too. It's not odd. It is expected: the users who have been deeply ingrained in Mac OS for years -- 16 years for me, now -- don't want to switch to a whole new OS. I am far more efficient on Mac OS 9 than on Mac OS X. I may make the switch eventually, but for most old users -- even like me who use Unix all the time -- the benefits of Mac OS X simply don't match the costs. Hopefully someday they will.

Re:Old users. (2)

Spencerian (465343) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144634)

Yep--I remember this feeling happening with Windows 95, too, and Mac OS 7, especially since it required (gasp!) a hard drive and scads of RAM.

Stick to OS 9 and fight the system--it's OK. It's more important to use what works for you. Apple typically doesn't kill us for that decision like some other software companies we know. Keep in mind, though, that time will win out in about a couple of years as the OS X train rolls through and 10-native apps are almost exclusive for the major things.

Funny that the users of the most flexible consumer OS are the most inflexible. Experienced Mac users are the hardest affected by the OS X change, yet UNIX nuts and Windows converts are more forgiving. Oh, well. Good luck to you--OS 9 will be around for some time to come. No worries.

Re:Old users. (2)

SteveM (11242) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144875)

My first Mac was a used 512KE. I still have it. It still runs. I have a Quadra 700 that still runs as well. Neither are currently set up though.

The machines I do have up and running are a TiBook, beige G3, Dell laptop, and a noname 1 GHz Athlon.

I mostly use the TiBook and can't wait until I can use OS X exclusively.

The only time I boot into OS 9 is when Palm Desktop beta starts acting funny and won't recognize my data. I boot into classic to run MS Office (I'm unemployed and don't have the cash to upgrade - feel free to send me a copy or give me a job) and Starry Night. The G3 is OS 9 and pretty much the only thing I run on it is Photoshop.

Fourteen or so years using the Mac OS and I find that it an app doesn't run native under OS X I don't want it.

I don't understand articles like those at Register.com and others blasting OS X. Yeah it is different and takes some time to learn. But it is much more stable. And the ability to run Darwin apps is just the icing on the cake.

I just don't get the "OS 9 or die mentality".

Steve M

Re:Old users. (2)

sg3000 (87992) | more than 12 years ago | (#3169255)

> Oddly, a lot of the new blood is replacing the
> old die-hard Mac community. They made it
> through the Spindler and Amelio years, but
> just can't stomach the new operating
> system.

Great point.

I refuse to even drop into Classic, much less reboot into Mac OS 9. I can do all my daily work in Mac OS X, so I think it's a change for the better.

What's interesting, is when the Mac was first released, Mac users were "revolutionaries" and were happy to mock the DOS users who were stodgy and refused to give up arcane DOS commands. Today, many of those same Mac users cling to the old Mac OS 9 because Mac OS X is too new and different for them.

Re:Old users. (1)

feloneous cat (564318) | more than 12 years ago | (#3170548)

Hmmm... I've got an old 30 Mhz 68000 that I would be willing to part with, oooh, $10,000... or is that too much?

Console Wars (2, Flamebait)

Perdo (151843) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143691)

The shame of it is, as slick as OS X is, it's still on expensive, proprietary, out of date hardware. Don't get me wrong, the hardware is nice, but imagine OS X on a platform that has general use benchmarks as high as the PC side of the house. IBM announced the 1 ghz G3 750FX power PC six months ago. But Apple has a stranglehold on their hardware. So the only place we will see that chip is in a game console. We will soon be able to guy a 1 ghz G3 game console for three hundred dollars.

That puts Apple's speed, price and marketing to shame. Marketing? Apple's marketing puts their inferior hardware in glossy wrappers and words. Apple used to have hardware features that put PCs to shame. Back when every computer was $2000, Apple was the obvious choice. But competition in the PC industry has pushed their speed up and price down. Apple can no longer hide their head in the sand about price. Apple is competing with PCs on four fronts: price, hardware, OS and software. Apple must not let marketing make their hardware decisions. If nothing else, if their hardware was better, their marketing would not have to lie so much. Jobs using the same Photoshop benchmark that shows apple hardware faster than PC hardware over and over is an industry joke. Apple users must know what SDRAM i845 Pentium 4 owners feel like. They pay insane prices for hardware that does a few things fast and does everyday tasks significantly slower. So the G3 does not have the altivec multimedia (SSE) instructions, so what?

Build a business machine based on the 1 Ghz G3. Make it mesh seamlessly with an NT environment (without Dave) and make it cheap. The iMac does not serve the roll well. Let the businesses use their legacy monitors. Give it some PCI slots. Resurrect the beige G3 tower for less than $600. Compete on all three fronts. OS X alone will rescue Apple. But competing on price and speed will bring Apple back to dominance.

Final word: Appleworks. This is the last competition to Office. But even Apple themselves is pushing Office on the mac. Sure, Microsoft injected 200 million into Apple. Microsoft bribed the only competition for 200 million, then spent 500 million marketing the X-box. Apple sold out for a song, and will soon be surpassed in performance by a console. Will soon be surpassed in performance by a console. A console for god sakes.

Re:Console Wars (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3143867)

What are you talking about? There are 1GHz G4s out there already. And using OSX, mounting to a Windows server is as easy as choosing 'Connect to Server' and typing the URL beginning with smb://

The iMac is a consumer appliance not a business box that is expandable.

>Final word: Appleworks. This is the last >competition to Office. But even Apple themselves >is pushing Office on the mac.

Shocking isn't it. Those bloody customers keep asking for Office.

Appleworks, BTW is bundled for free on the new Macs - That's what I call pushing

Re:Console Wars (2)

Dredd13 (14750) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145051)

Appleworks, BTW is bundled for free on the new Macs - That's what I call pushing

Where? I just got a TiBook and don't seem to see it anywhere...

Check the CDs (2)

Big Sean O (317186) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146148)

Apple is famous for putting a load of stuff on the CDs that never make the main install. IIRC, AppleWorks is usually tucked onto one of the CDs that came with the computer. Sherlock the CDs and you'll eventually find it. My old iMac came with a sheet of paper that described all the software that came with it. There was all kinds of stuff that was included, most of it I never needed (the WorldBook Encyclopedia?! Sonoma Valley Guide to Whine [sic] -- bleah).

Re:Console Wars (1)

Johnny Mnemonic (176043) | more than 12 years ago | (#3147217)


Where? I just got a TiBook and don't seem to see it anywhere..

It's not. Appleworks is only included on 'i' hardware: iBooks and iMacs. It's not on TiBooks or G4 towers. Why, I don't know, since it doesn't cost anything for Apple to bundle the image since they own the app.

Re:Console Wars (1)

Anonynnous Coward (557984) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146684)

Shocking isn't it. Those bloody customers keep asking for Office.

That's what happens when the manufacturer of Office has a monopoly and users are forced to use it to be able to exchange data with them. Shocking, isn't it.

Re:Console Wars (2)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144102)

How would a 1GHz G3 be better than a 1GHz G4? Anyway, I can't find any mention of the 750fx on IBMs website anymore.

Re:Console Wars (2)

Perdo (151843) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145010)

A 1 Ghz G3 would be better because it was available 6 months ago and is done on a more efficient process, meaning better yield, meaning less expencive. Apple failed to capitalize on the faster G3 because at the time it would have meant their low end processor would be faster than their high end processor.

IBM has it here [ibm.com]

To quote IBM's pdf:

"Manufactured in IBM's advanced 0.13 micron copper process with Silicon-on-Insulator
and Low-K Dielectric technology, the 750FX will be offered at frequencies up to 1 GHz.
The 750FX expands the capabilities of the IBM PowerPC 7xx processor family to
support more performance-demanding and power-sensitive applications. The new
processor is ideally suited for a variety of systems, including networking,
communications, storage, imaging, computing, and consumer applications.
The 750FX is architecturally based on the PowerPC 750 and PowerPC 750CXe
processors, and implements many enhancements that address the performance and
reliability requirements of embedded applications. These include 512 Kbytes of internal
L2 cache running at core frequency with cache locking, expanded width of internal data
paths, additional cache buffers, parity protection on internal cache arrays, additional
memory mapping registers, the capability for up to 200-MHz operation of the 60x system
bus interface with additional bus pipelining, and two PLLs."


I'll take 512k of on die full speed L2 cache over 2 Mb of 266mhz L3 any day. 266mhz DDR is what PCs use for memory, Apples use it as "high speed cache". As for the 200mhz fsb, Sounds like it is ready for DDR-333. 6 months would have given them the time to put it in the new iMac. They knew IBM was building it almost two years ago. But Motorola is a sexier company than stodgy old IBM so they kept the flagship processor contract even though IBM has a better process.

Re:Console Wars (2)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145458)

Oh boy. The 1 Ghz G3 was not available 6 months ago, and it still isn't. To quote IBM's pdf:

Initially disclosed at the Microprocessor Forum on October 17, 2001, sampling for this new processor is planned for January, 2002.

If you look at the main page for PPC chips at IBM [ibm.com] , you'll find no mention of the 750fx. If you search for "750FX" you'll find things like this announcment [ibm.com] .

Select customers are currently evaluating the hardware with general sampling available in January of 2002. The PowerPC 750FX is planned to initially debut at 700 MHz, with versions at speeds up to 1 Ghz later that year.
You'll find no indication that the 750fx is shipping. Even the 700 MHz part is nowhere to be seen.

Sorry, but "stodgy old IBM" blew it here.

Re:Console Wars (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3146373)

Uh. Your head is so far up your ass I don't even know where to begin.

Obviously the other poster has pointed out that announcing a product and shipping a product in volume are not the same thing. You seem to be in that mythical world populated by Microserfs and press releases, where an announcement = shipment. Yes, I'm sure the day Intel announced those 2GHz P4s you could walk right down to the corner store and buy one - right?

Dell would have happily taken your money and let you wait until they could fulfill your order based on the few procs that were trickling out of Intel. So it is, so it will ever be, at least when the semiconductor manufacturer is also the systems manufacturer - Apple, on the other hand, tries to wait until the semi mfg at least has a chance in HELL of fulfilling demand.

Second, you're confusing DDR SDRAM with DDR SRAM. The cache on G4s is not SDRAM. It is SRAM. Static RAM. Not Synchronous Dynamic RAM. Go find a textbook at your library and read up on the differences between DRAM and SRAM. No, no, no, not the internet, you'll just fill your head with more nonsensical bullshit dreamed up by other simpletons who try to rationalize their way out of a box.

200Mhz FSB (assuming it's a true 200Mhz FSB and not clock doubled ala Athlon, which works fine but limits you) would be DDR-400. Have you HEARD of 400Mhz DDR SDRAM? Kind of hard to create product off of technologies that DON'T EXIST.

IBM does have better fabs, and better technology, but they are designing processors for the embedded market. Not the desktop market. Motorola is designing processors for the desktop market, with offshoots that work in the embedded market. Embedded systems are fine, but they're more concerned about cost than performance. Heat is also a big concern, which is where SOI comes into the picture - less heat, same performance.

Re:Console Wars (1)

EnVisiCrypt (178985) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144961)

What kind of troll is this?

>Make it mesh seamlessly with an NT environment
It does. Easily. Just type smb:\\servername into the connect to server dialog

>Give it some PCI slots
Riiiight. It has them. Have you even looked inside?

>IBM announced the 1 ghz G3 750FX power PC six months ago
I'm using dual 1ghz G4's now. And they rip. Why would I want a G3?

>Let the businesses use their legacy monitors
It's called a VGA connector. My Mac has one.

You are right on one count though, my mac is prettier than a beige box, as well it should; I have to look at it every day.

Re:Console Wars (2)

Perdo (151843) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145141)

Price point? Price point. What did it cost you? What is the new barrier to entry for Apple? Getting a new imac went from $800 to $1300. Your Dual G4 cost you at least $3000. That's if you got the GeForce 4mx based on a two year old design.

"It's called a VGA connector. My Mac has one."

The cheap apple was the iMac. I'm talking an iMac box without a monitor at all. Let it be round and cute but skip the $500 tiny flat panel. And give it some PCI slots. But keep the low price point. Not that hard really, just do the math.

As far as Apple is concerned, PCI slots cost you an extra $1000, because that is the difference in price between a machine that has them compared to a machine that doesn't. Utter bullshit.

By the way, NetBios is unsupperted under XP now. meaning microsoft has broken compatibility with Samba, meaning they are assholes and OS X cannot work in a *modern* NT enviroment. It's a moving target, but if Apple wants to thrive instead of survive, they better hit the damn thing.

Re:Console Wars (2)

klieber (124032) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145319)

Getting a new imac went from $800 to $1300.

No, it didn't. You can still buy the old-style iMac for $800. The flat-panel one costs $1300, true, but that isn't the only iMac choice.

As far as Apple is concerned, PCI slots cost you an extra $1000, because that is the difference in price between a machine that has them compared to a machine that doesn't. Utter bullshit.

That's a gross oversimplification. Their *consumer* Mac is the iMac. It's geared towards the home user who doesn't need PCI slots and doesn't care about the latest and greatest AGP video card. It's geared towards the majority of people who use their computer for word processing, quicken and web surfing.

Their *professional* mac is the Power Mac G4. It's geared towards the graphic designer and power user. It has things like advanced AGP graphics and PCI slots and yes, it costs more. You get what you pay for. (and comparing intel hardware to Mac hardware is an apples to oranges comparison. I know you don't want it to be, but it is. Deal.)

By the way, NetBios is unsupperted under XP now. meaning microsoft has broken compatibility with Samba, meaning they are assholes and OS X cannot work in a *modern* NT enviroment.

This is absolutely, positively false. NetBIOS *is* supported in XP and I challenge you to prove otherwise. Here [microsoft.com] is an article that talks about using WINS and NetBIOS on XP. If it wasn't supported, this article wouldn't exist. Furthermore, I can connect to my XP box from my linux machine using smbclient just fine, thank you very much. I can also transfer files the other way around using smbd, so Microsoft has *not* broken compatibility with Samba.

Your facts are so obviously incorrect that it certainly calls into question your entire post.

Re:Console Wars (2)

Perdo (151843) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145592)

Hello? [microsoft.com]

Do you possibly think microsoft would stick to a protocol that increases their compatibility? That must be why you can open a Word 2001 .doc in word 98.

Re:Console Wars (2)

klieber (124032) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145904)

Did you even bother to read the MS document you linked to? If not, go back and read it. If so, go back and read it again. Then, go look up NetBEUI and see how it differs from NetBIOS.

Thanks for validating my earlier concerns about your post.

Re:Console Wars (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3146298)

No way. He didn't? He did? Holy shit. What a dumbass.

Re:Console Wars (2)

Perdo (151843) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146651)

Net Bios Extended User Interface = Dave stops working and win XP cannot log on to Samba server except by installing NetBios which is now unsupported. Additionally, The Pro versions contain just enough of the appletalk protocol that any appletalk device with file shares on the network gets treated like a printer... Want to see every 8.1 box you have crash? On a DHCP network have win2k or XP look for network printers on your ethernet. 9.0.4 will figure it out but all the other boxes die. Static IP boxes seem to be safe from this but all others crash. 9.1 USB printer shareing boxes also will crash. 2000 server has full appletalk capability and will not cause this. Will not occure on an AUI adapter box like a 6100 but will kill an asante nic box. USB printer sharing does not work under DHCP anyway, so their crashing is not much of a hazard because any USB p/s box should be on a static IP anyway. You cannot convince me that Windows plays nice with Apples exept the servers and old NT 4. The problem occures when windows forces an election to become the master browser.

Re:Console Wars (1)

klieber (124032) | more than 12 years ago | (#3148112)

<sighs>

Net Bios Extended User Interface = Dave stops working and win XP cannot log on to Samba server except by installing NetBios which is now unsupported.

I don't know how else to explain this to you. NetBEUI is unsupported in XP. NetBIOS is fully supported in XP. NetBEUI != NetBIOS.

NetBEUI is a transport protocol and operates at layer 2 of the OSI. NetBIOS is more like an API, that allows things like name-to-address resolution and sending/receiving data.

NetBIOS can be bound to things like TCP/IP, IPX/SPX, etc. It is NOT unsupported in XP.

NetBEUI is a shitty protocol for anything other than a tiny SOHO LAN. It should rightfully be put out of its misery. Thank goodness Microsoft has chosen to do so in XP.

You cannot convince me that Windows plays nice with Apples exept the servers and old NT 4.

I don't care if I convince you. Just stop spreading the F.U.D. nonsense about NetBIOS not being supported on XP. You are wrong.

Re:Console Wars (1)

Anonynnous Coward (557984) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146679)

Getting a new imac went from $800 to $1300.

No, it didn't. You can still buy the old-style iMac for $800. The flat-panel one costs $1300, true, but that isn't the only iMac choice.

Maybe you just missed the part in the sentence you quoted where he said "new." NEW. NEEEEEWWWWW! Not "old style." So I boldfaced it for you.

Re:Console Wars (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3147960)

Q: Can I still go to store.apple.com and buy a new (not used) CRT iMac?

A: Yes, you can. And for $800

OK, thanks.

Re:Console Wars (1)

Anonynnous Coward (557984) | more than 12 years ago | (#3148192)

You can go buy a "new" Pentium II 400 at some stores, too. Hell, I can probably find you an MIB C-64 on eBay, since that would meet your definition of the word "new," too.

OK, thanks.

Photoshop Benchmark (1)

cappadocius (555740) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145259)

Jobs using the same Photoshop benchmark that shows apple hardware faster than PC hardware over and over is an industry joke.

Perhaps, but I for one can tolerate ridicule as long as my filters and resizes are up to speed.

Re:Console Wars (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3156552)

Apple's hardware control allows them to provide a tight, integrated "plug and play" system. Wintel PC's are more amenable to the builders and tinkerers. Trade-off.

Apple's speed is slower than PC's. BUT.... many Apple systems need only one quiet fan for cooling. Wintel PC's at the top speeds need lots of cooling fans, and sound like an industrial plant. Despite slower hardware speeds, one may also consider "productivity. A lot of that "productivity" comes from good user interface design, and a system architecture that simplifies the user experience. Apple is very good at that. Trade-off.

AppleWorks could be considered competition, but really it can't be. Microsoft controls Office file formats, etc. very closely. Plus, 95%+ of the business world runs on M/S Office. You know the business world won't agree to a M/S Office to Applworks conversion regardless of technical merit. A dependency/addiction has developed over time. Apple's best choice is to feed it.

waiting for my TiBook (1)

HaiLHaiL (250648) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143818)

I purchased a completely loaded Titanium Powerbook on Feb 12. After going through a lot of hassle to get a big enough Apple Loan from MBNA bank, I watched my shipping get delayed by Apple. Now, I'm waiting for FedEx to deliver it, since they decided to tell me the wrong location to pick it up when I asked for it to be held. ARGH!

My first Mac, I'm sooo looking forward to using OS X, but CHRIST I've had to go through some shit to get it. Apple needs to get a better bank to handle Apple Loans and get a better shipper.

I hope I'm done jumping through hoops for this thing.

Re:waiting for my TiBook (1)

Identified Coward (568402) | more than 12 years ago | (#3211186)

I mbna bank. I took myself off of all of their list and made them promise to never contact me again. They are to banking what M$ is to OS's. Best, IC

Re:waiting for my TiBook (1)

Identified Coward (568402) | more than 12 years ago | (#3211202)

I meant to say "I HATE MBNA bank".

What is it about Saturday? (5, Interesting)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3143841)

I, too, bought my first Mac on Saturday: a Titanium G4 550 (couldn't quite bring myself to pay for the true top-end...). Immediately I was dissapointed because, upon booting the Ti, OS9 came up. OS9 looks like a kludge with widgets everywhere, thus betraying it's age and drifting from the roots of simplicity; to me, of course. However, I was happy to find the way to switch to OS X and did so. I have no need for OS9 - I have no loved OS9 apps that I must use. Soon I will remove OS9 from my system (as soon as I determine there really is nothing interesting for me there).

Booting OS X...wow. Slick, solid, clean, clear. D*mn this is nice. After getting my bearings for an hour or so I looked around my room and began cleaning it up -- something my wife has always requested unsucessfully. Perhaps the clutter that is Windows and KDE/Gnome acclimated me to clutter? Whatever the reason, I'm affected by the slickness of the hardware, software and combination of the two of my PowerBook Ti running OS X.

Until now I've run my life and work off a Toshiba 2805 with RedHat 7.2 and Win4Lin for Win98SE client-side testing. Frequently I'd need to spend time directly in the Windows world (Win4Lin is great as a temporary testing environment but when I'm doing serious client-side development and need to depend on IE, native is the best). Switching between Windows and Linux (running KDE 2 as my desktop; hate Gnome) I couldn't help but notice how unpolished the GUI on Linux is compared to Windows. Windows, for all it's other problems (and they are legion) feels substantial as a desktop. Linux felt tenuous - I can't explain exactly why, that was just my sense. Perhaps it was switching between GTK+ and KDE based apps...and straight X apps... OS X is totally different. Awesome.

My next step (heehee) after getting online was to seek out the Mac Community. Right away I realized there are two camps: bewildered, disaffected Mac loyalists who are resisting the new Mac Way and eye-opened, gaga Unix/Linux geeks overwhelmed with the marvellous marriage of UNIX and GUI that is OS X. Of course, some are happier than others, but I just ignore the heretics (kidding). My I'm bookmarking the OS X-specific web sites and ignoring OS9-oriented sites. There's nothing for me in OS 9. OS X has everything I need:

  • UNIX
  • gnu tools (thanks to fink)
  • clean interface
  • iDVD for watching movies with the wife
  • iMovie for EASILY creating movies of the kids for their grandparents.
  • Virtual PC for testing client-side stuff with Windows IE
  • coolness
I'll be participating in the Mac community - the Mac OS X community, that is. I think I'll start by getting that Learning Cocoa book...yeah, that's my NeXTSTEP...

Re:What is it about Saturday? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3144072)

I'm not sure you can call us long time Mac users "bewildered, disaffected Mac loyalists". Many of us have embraced OS X for its stability and forward thinking. OS 9 and below has served our community well for the past 18 years and the transition to the unfamiliar is bound to be intimidating for some. I for one enjoy both OS 9 and OS X. I run an OS X server at work, have an iMac running 9.2 on my desk, and have a G4 Cube at home that runs a 90/10 split X to 9.

I welcome the Linux and Unix users to the club. I realise that many of you will have an easier time with the transition, but in no way should the Mac faithful be discounted. We are a fiercly loyal bunch (maybe to a fault) that will help drive sales. And higher sales helps us all.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (2)

Graymalkin (13732) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144340)

Congrats you've got a ton of money to throw down on a new Mac. However don't go and say Mac loyalists resisting the New Way are a bewildered bunch. You've not used a Mac for several years only to have the virtual carpet tugged under you and then told your hardware isn't going to run the new OS. There's people who've been using subsequent versions of MacOS of system they've had for five years and even more. I'm not about to plunk down another couple thousand dollars just to be able to run OS X, OS9 and LinuxPPC have the stuff I need. By segregating yourself from the older Mac community you're missing out on a good deal. I guess it is true that converts make the best fanatics.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (2)

Spencerian (465343) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144601)

I'm a tech, so don't feel that I'm centering you out. KNOW that I'm centering you out. I hate whiners.

As the original thread smartly noted, yes, there are several factions in the Mac camp. Sorry that your older Mac can't run OS X--here's a hankie. Buy the new Mac and stop whining--if you are who you claim to be, you know for a fact that you got a lot of use from your older Mac, but nothing--not even a Mac--lasts forever. You can't expect an auto dealer to upgrade your old car to the latest widgets, and its unreasonable to assume that your old Mac can do Mac OS X unless its a G3.

I've been using Macs since their inception and PCs slightly before that, with countless computers between those. And I've helped those with old Macs move on, whether to PC iron or a new Mac. It's disappointing to have to leave behind something that works well, but time affects all, including computers. A Macintosh's effective life is about 7 years. Stop feeling miserly. If you like the technology, buy it.

The original poster isn't "segregating' anything. He can run practically any OS on the planet under OS X--including all the OSs you mentioned. Can you do that right now? The answer, if you were happy with your situation is, "No, but I have what I need." That's fine. OS 9 and other OSs are great still, even in their twilight.

But stop whining already. Appreciate what others have or just resist the urge to babble about this topic.

And learn to separate your thoughts with paragraphs, for cryin' out loud.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (2)

Graymalkin (13732) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146488)

I'm not asking my Mac to live forever, I don't even have that old of a Mac. I have a Lombard Powerbook. Will I get seven years out of it? I sure fucking hope so. Will I get seven years out of it with OSX? Not likely unless Apple pulls a rabbit out of their ass. OSX is a dog on older hardware, hardware mind you, that is only one or two years old. There's a class action lawsuit against Apple right now that they lied about OSX's ability to run on their G3 based systems. Contrary to what Linux users believe, a kernel does not mean you have a functional computer.
The original poster IS segregating the community as he has decided to talk only with those with OSX because it wooed him over to a Macintosh. That borders on ridiculousness. I hate whining bitches who whine about other people whining.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3157617)

Quityerb*tchin. I have a Lombard Powerbook (G3/333), and it's the only machine I have OS X running on right now. After the upgrade to 320 MB RAM, it runs OS X quite well, and although you can't lauch every app simultaneously like a DP 1GHz, it will run apps well. Well, at least as well as OS 9 will.

I can run a webserver, Office v.X, GraphicConverter, InterfaceBuilder(makes great aqua tabs for a website), and Grab all at the same time, all while crashing IE over and over and cursing OmniWeb for not working with a Win2k firewall/proxy server. I can't complain, and, really, you shouldn't either.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (2)

Graymalkin (13732) | more than 12 years ago | (#3158493)

Gofuckyou*self. You had a valid point until you said I ought not complain because you didn't. I have the 333 Lombard as well and I'm sorry but OSX is NOT usable on it. I don't have time to sit around waiting for a menu to drop down or for OmniWeb to finih rendering a page after scrolling down a couple of lines. Videos that playied fine in OS9 on Quicktime skipped and sputtered in X and iTunes couldn't seem to keep itself working properly. Office v.X didn't run very fast either, maybe I just type too fast because I was constantly waiting for it to catch up with me, Office 98 in OS9 never had that problem and neither did AppleWorks in OS9. Right now I'm stuck with a copy of Office v.X I can't use until some point in the future when I get a new Mac.

The problem isn't my Lombard being slow, the problem is OSX not supporting any of the hardware in it worth shit. There's no support for the graphics card so I had to run in 16 bit colour mode or else spend all my time waiting for windows and menus to render. OSX would have been four times more usable if there was a "turn off all the fucking Bezier curve graphics" button that would have taken me back to a Platinum interface.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (1)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144976)

Everyone knows that the second generation lags behind the first in zeal.

However, from my perspective you've buttressed my point: faithful old-style Mac users are reticent to adopt the new Mac OS X. To me, moving off the Intel platform is a huge jump, so I'm easily prepared for the cost and unfamiliarity of OS X. I just see OS X itself; not in context of 20+ years of incremental development junked (running an emulator for the old stuff is "junking" it -- emulators are always more painful than native so by not providing native support for classic applications, which could have been done I would think through hardware (just guessing), the intention to drop the old was made clear). But, to be honest, I was never tempted to use Mac OS 9 and the radical departure was a benefit to me.

The last time I was familiar with Mac OS, 6.2 was just released. Looking at OS 9 is incredibly confusing and unappealing to me. OS X attracts me. However, my partner is a Mac-using graphic artist/ videographer/ web designer and moving to OS X took resolve on his part.

I guess Mac users (loyalists) expected the new Mac to be like the old but better. It reminds me of the transition between Apple // and the Mac - radical, string-cutting change. I view the prior Mac OSes the way a Mac 512k'er viewed Apple ProDos - glad to be free of that.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (1)

MonkeyBoy (4760) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146423)

I have OSX but can't do everything under it that I can do under OS 9.

Losing functionality is not acceptable. Until OS X has the necessary support (hardware is the big stickler here) to display 640x480 video in a window (best, which is the situation I'm at under OS 9, is full screen on a 2nd display), I won't be moving to it.

I'd also like to have 4-speaker surround under OS X but I've given up on Creative actually releasing drivers for the SB Live. Probably going to replace my SBL + DTT3500 setup for a CAVIT and a 5.1 Yamaha speaker setup.

Change the system if you don't like it (2, Flamebait)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145317)

Power is control. Its that simple. If you don't like your GNU/Linux system, you have the freedom to change it yourself. And then you can share these changes with others. Thats the spirit of cooperation. What you see right now (in the GNU/Linux system) is the result of this spirit.

Sure, you may not be a programmer. You don't write code. You want the software to be written for you--you want it already configured to your liking. Or maybe you don't know what exactly you want from your system. So you want someone else to make all the decisions for you and you want to like it. So you say you like Apple. They've done testing. UI science is little more than averaging out the preferences of many potential software users.

But what about the license? The end-user agreement? When you started up your OS, did you click "I agree" ? Did you read it? Do you agree with everything it said? None of the software on the system can be copied, shared, or modified. Okay...perhaps the BSD core.

Whats the big deal? you ask. Do you like Apple? Do you trust them? The users of BeOS did...look what happened to them. You don't own the operating system. They do. That nice interface of theirs is their property. Anything that looks like it is their property. All the software is theirs to. You just pay to use it.

If you wrote an operating system or designed the interface, what would you do? Would you choose to own it or choose to share it? Which promotes cooperation and which promotes your own interests? Whose interests do you think Apple is promoting?

The spirit of cooperation is a huge factor in software development. Its what made the GNU/Linux system what it is today. And all them command line programs that you like on your Apple system, where did they come from? Open cooperation. Open cooperationg is the spirit of free software. Thats why it exists. Hope you like your Apple.

Conclusion: Apple is not your friend.

Re:Change the system if you don't like it (1, Insightful)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145958)

Do you have any idea how ridiculous your post reads? Do you?

I don't need a "friend" out of Apple -- or Linus, for that mater -- I need a product that works.

As an aside, I really like the moniker "GNU/Linux" - it warns me of the religion of the writer.

None of your points were helpful or useful. Rhetorical, yes, but academically only. For example, your assertion

  • UI science is little more than averaging out the preferences of many potential software users.
begs the question, "So GNOME is the result of a better method than UI science? Or would that be KDE? XFree? MidnightCommander? Emacs?" Come on... GNU isn't all about choice, either, it's a free implementation of a proprietary system that Worked (TM). GNU - which is available on my OS X, BTW, is an awesome acheivement whose time has come. But I won't use a tool for merely philosophical reasons. Nor will I reject it outright. In your world, any choice besides GNU/* is an invalid one.
  • So, are you really for *choice*?

Re:Change the system if you don't like it (3, Insightful)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 12 years ago | (#3147273)

Do you have any idea how ridiculous your post reads? Do you?

Yes, I have an idea. But consider it a matter of perspective. I like trying to see the whole picture.

I don't need a "friend" out of Apple -- or Linus, for that mater -- I need a product that works.

A minor quibble. Surely any literate person would interpret "Apple is not your friend" as "Don't trust Apple" or perhaps this is too much of a right-brain activity. Perhaps it is all the poetry I am having to read right now :)

None of your points were helpful or useful. Rhetorical, yes, but academically only. For example, your assertion
UI science is little more than averaging out the preferences of many potential software users.
begs the question, "So GNOME is the result of a better method than UI science? Or would that be KDE? XFree? MidnightCommander? Emacs?"

I suppose I got lost in predicting possible responses to my post--something I've learned to do while communicating through the internet. But you bring up GNOME, KDE, XFree, MC, and Emacs and I don't think any real UI methodology was used in this case. The only real goal is that the user can customize their interface to the system. You see this prevalent throughout most free software projects. Again, I am not saying that this is a better method...

Come on... GNU isn't all about choice, either, it's a free implementation of a proprietary system that Worked (TM). GNU - which is available on my OS X, BTW, is an awesome acheivement whose time has come. But I won't use a tool for merely philosophical reasons. Nor will I reject it outright. In your world, any choice besides GNU/* is an invalid one.

(Side note...its nice to know that GNU is available on your system. Obviously it was ported by someone. How about that nice Aqua interface? can I port it to my system? Why not?)

GNU is its own system. Its derived from Unix quite a bit of design but I think there is enough new and interesting things added to the system to call it a new system but with compatibility. This is very subjective of course--and all beside the point.

Your point on not using a tool for its philosophy is well taken. I would agree if something really wrong isn't taking place. Its like if all the hammers were owned by one individual and the idea of the hammer was also owned. Then perhaps philosophy might become important. Sure...some will yield "Just give me a damn hammer!" but others might insist "You know, there is something wrong here."

In my world, there are no invalid choices. You must confuse me with some zealot. But if you want to make me into a zealot for sake of argument, of course I might have a problem with that :)Perhaps you might doubt me in this. I don't necessarily subscribe to all of the free software philosophy. For example, I think it is more important for software to be useful than for it to be free. But I think the freedom to use the software anyway you please is a great deal of the value of software. Many people are of the mindset that the only thing that matters is what the software does. But I think it is as important as to how it does it and what you can do with it, legally, under the law. Because I try to be a law abiding man.

So, are you really for *choice*?

(emphasis deleted)

You must really take me as insane. Of course I am for choice and my choice is to insist on certain rights on the software I use. I'm an OS advocate and this is what I advocate about GNU/Linux. Advocating an OS doesn't mean disallowing other people from making the choice for themselves. But rather it means letting other people know why you use the OS you use. In this case...I may have went a little far--openly attacking an alternative OS. You're right...only in this regard.

As an aside, I really like the moniker "GNU/Linux" - it warns me of the religion of the writer.

I wanted to reply to this last since I think it is least important. I use "GNU/Linux" because it makes the most sense to me. MacOS X, I've heard, has a BSD kernal. Do you find yourself usually calling it BSD? I actually read both ways and unlike some people, I don't correct people while they speak :) The only time I really care is when it is ambiguous whether they meant the entire OS or just the kernal.

Anyway...best regards.

Re:Change the system if you don't like it (1)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3147385)

You said a lot, much of it steering back towards a mainstream presentation and I could comment favorably on much of it, however, I am short of time so I will comment on something that sticks in my craw (as usual):
  • But you bring up GNOME, KDE, XFree, MC, and Emacs and I don't think any real UI methodology was used in this case. The only real goal is that the user can customize their interface to the system.
Unfortunately I must disagree the the user can customize his (the proper gender-ambiguous third-person singular pronoun; how I hate having to qualify this) UI with GKXME - the user can modify the UI as defined by the developers (or can develop his own, which is beyond the scope of our consideration). These applications have a defined UI, albeit it can be modified according to the user's desire/capability. Some framework was used for this UI. What? Guessing? Intuition? Or copying of someone else's UI? Since the 128K Mac the Interface has been excellent for the vast majority of computer users. Why? Probably more related to UI science than developer whim.

Re: GNU on OS X - see the fink [sourceforge.net] project.

Re:Change the system if you don't like it (1)

Anonynnous Coward (557984) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146668)

Ah, you've discovered the great Karma sinkhole of daring to criticize Apple on Slashdot since the release of OSX.

Now that Apple's ported a *nix, they can do no wrong, despite being a repackager of clone hardware on a force-bundled operating system having licensed the one-click patent, c&d'd and threatened to sue kids making skins, crippled DVD authoring software, and killed clone makers they'd made agreements with.

Hell, I think Apple could hire Jack Valenti as a spokesperson and put Hilary Rosen naked on the screen of the new iMac as wallpaper, and you'd still get modded down for daring to criticize them here!

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. (2, Insightful)

Brendor (208073) | more than 12 years ago | (#3151255)

Ok I'll probly get modded down for this but karma is made for spending, so here goes. Fuzzy Logic I know, bear with me.

Apple is not perfect. But right now as an "average" computer user (Started on MS-DOS/3.11, Now on a dual Ghz for design/ Art,) Apple is a hell of a lot more appealing than their most visible competitor. I think Bill Gates said it best (in "The Road Ahead") when he said that a corporation (group that wants something) is doomed when the CEO ignores the problems at hand (Think all of us here re: MS). I'm not accusing annyone of ignoring redmond.

Microsoft makes me mad, and I'm too young, too American (And too entwined with LotR style strategizing) and I don't want to wait 10 years for a guilt free/opensource vision of a usable, stable operating system.

My[(1$*(.02))]

Re:The enemy of my enemy is my friend. (2)

extrasolar (28341) | more than 12 years ago | (#3157714)

"Microsoft makes me mad, and I'm too young, too American (And too entwined with LotR style strategizing) and I don't want to wait 10 years for a guilt free/opensource vision of a usable, stable operating system."

GNU/Linux is a usable stable operating system. And you get all the rights users of Free Software are entitled to. Whats the complaint?

Re:What is it about Saturday? (1)

StudentAction.CA (167871) | more than 12 years ago | (#3147432)

Wow, there really must have been something in the air on Saturday.

I went out and got the iBook (600) and haven't touched my desktop since.

Within an hour of having it, I had fink installed, XDarwin, and rdesktop so I could connect to my NT Development machines.

Only beef so far is that the SMB support doesn't seem to be perfect, and I'm probally going to have to splurge on Dave.....

Re:What is it about Saturday? (2)

donglekey (124433) | more than 12 years ago | (#3152070)

I don't mean to put a crimp in your plans, but the Learning Cocoa book really really sucks. Cocoa is sweet shit, and the Mac OS X API is awsome, and the development tools are incredible and and and ...

I borrowed this book from the local library and was saddened to learn that it is no Camel book that's for sure. It is not a good intro to objective-C, the development tools, or Cocoa. I would stay away from this one, it doesn't even make a good reference. Everything is ambiguous, it was hard for me to learn something as simple as objective-C after I already know 9 languages, C and C++ very much included. So you have been warned, but definitly go out and start learning cocoa!

Re:What is it about Saturday? (1)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3152426)

Yeah, I read the reviews: warmed over NeXTSTEP documentation, but it was the only title I could recall offhand ;-)

Re:What is it about Saturday? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3157725)

I have Learning Cocoa. It's mostly a book about the philosophy of the API and why they did certain things the way they did. There are a few times when it explains how some things work. There are *very* few code examples, and for that matter, very few functions listed.

It's not a reference, it's not a how-to, it's not interesting, and it's not helpful.

On a related note, does anyone know of a *good* Cocoa book?

Re:What is it about Saturday? (1)

tobyglyn (455427) | more than 12 years ago | (#3153122)

The Titanium 550 is a good buy and by changing a couple of resistors can be converted into a 667/133mhz version. It's the old economy of scale and marketing at it again. The main board is the same on both the 550/100 and 667/133, but they clock the 550 down.You will find that even though your bus speed is 100mhz the RAM supplied by Apple is PC-133. This mod does required a qualified tech with good eyesight and a steady hand. Best done after a run in period of a few months or out of warranty.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (1)

rjamestaylor (117847) | more than 12 years ago | (#3153342)

fantastic. I will remember this. Any documentation on this anywhere?

Re:What is it about Saturday? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3157766)

Check www.xlr8yourmac.com

They probably have it, although most of these are in Japanese, since the guy that figures these out all the time is Japanese. The pictures on his page generally give you a good idea of what's going on, and in a month or 2 after release, a translated page is usually posted.

Re:What is it about Saturday? (2)

sg3000 (87992) | more than 12 years ago | (#3169323)

> Right away I realized there are two camps:
> bewildered, disaffected Mac loyalists who
> are resisting the new Mac Way and eye-
> opened, gaga Unix/Linux geeks
> overwhelmed with the marvellous marriage
> of UNIX and GUI that is OS X.

Actually, there's a third camp. Mac OS 9 users who happily run in Mac OS X. Most of the Mac users I know fit into that category. I can only think of one or two people who haven't made the switch from Mac OS 9.

If you look further, even MacWorld magazine is focused on Mac OS X instead of Mac OS 9. Or the fact that iPhoto (a Mac OS X-only app) had over a million downloads in the past 2 months.

I'd say it's probably a vocal minority who fit into the "Give me 9 or give me death" camp. The silent majority are happy with the new OS. Or are people who have hardware that won't run Mac OS X very well or are blissfully ignorant of anything after Mac OS 8 (I'm sure they're out there).

Broadening minds in the existing Mac community too (3, Insightful)

speechpoet (562513) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144003)

For existing Mac users, OS X's *nix underpinnings have been a big leap forward -- not unambiguously so, but netting out on the positive side.

Jobs... er, God knows there's a much steeper learning curve than Apple has acknowledged, especially for users with a home network. Those of us who've never had to think twice about issues like permissions are suddenly paralyzed by folders that refuse to open and files that refuse to launch. There's an entirely different mindset needed, and it isn't exactly included with your CD-ROM and manual.

But that said, the geekier among us are now being exposed to the broader world of *nix. When we upload files to a web server, suddenly all those folder names make sense; we're navigating around in SSH like old pros; we're getting that endorphin rush from doing something especially clever from the command line.

And that's just the beginning. Now we're being introduced to the open source community, and a whole new model for software development... along with the development tools that come free with OS X.

It's not as if every mom 'n' pop Mac user out there is suddenly going to plunk a stuffed Tux on top of their monitor and start coding Perl scripts. But for every one of us who can't resist peeking under the hood, it just got a lot more rewarding.

Re:Broadening minds in the existing Mac community (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3145095)

I've been a "die hard mac fan" since 1994, now i got my own stuffed penguin by my iMac :D
(though i'm only coding Objective-C, no Perl for me thanks)

User base and branding. (4, Insightful)

mkoz (323688) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144097)

While I agree with the general feelings, especially among the /. community that Apple is doing the right thing. This is not an all roses situation for my favorite fruit company.

1. Apple is attracting a whole new set of users from the *nix ranks... This is great for many reasons.

2. Apple needs to work hard to keep the existing user base. A lot of MacOS users are still running OS 7/8/9 and a very happy. Moving to X is a learning curve. Totally different look/feel/operation. While I have gotten used to this, and in many cases I feel the changes are improvements, many people are happy with what they have because it works for them.

The traditional mac faithful feel left out of the change, so much is changing and X really only runs well on G4 hardware with lots of RAM. To the people who don't want a command line OS X does not offer much when you consider the changes that are being forced on them.

Don't get me wrong, Apple was right to make the move, but it is going to painful going for the next couple years getting people through the switch. ... and Apple needs to make sure they don't loose the traditional faithful.

Unix for the masses, is a far cry from it is just easier damn it. Granted Apple is changing focus in recent PR, from the strengths of unix to "everything is [still] easier on a mac". While geeks will figure out that MacOS X rocks, the masses still need to be reassured.

Re:User base and branding. (1)

analog_line (465182) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144456)

While geeks will figure out that MacOS X rocks, the masses still need to be reassured.

I think that all the programs that Apple has provided for free with OSX (iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, etc) that work almost without having to think about it will make the case. For the most part, Apple has done everything in it's power to make the user experience as similar as possible to the original Mac experience. There's an Apple menu. The dock, while I know people who don't like it, it's enough like the old Launcher app that people don't freak out trying to use it. The package technolgy that Apple built into OS X keeps the Drag-to-install that people got used with 9. I think the only real change from the user perspective is that it has a different finish, and the addition of user accounts, which not very many Mac users ever had to deal with before. That and Apple's made so much noise about how different it is under the hood, people are convinced it's going to act stranger than it actually will.

The real problem is going to be on the administrative side of the equation. The move to a UNIX base means almost everything has changed for the Mac administrator of today. Control Panels, Extensions, and the like as we knew them in OS 9 are gone for the most part. Alot of the Mac people that do administration tasks are scared to death of it. That's one reason I'm glad that Apple built Classic support into OS X. It gives the old school Mac admins the ability to still get things done, and the time to get up to speed on the way things are going to be from now on.

Re:User base and branding. (1)

feloneous cat (564318) | more than 12 years ago | (#3170644)

I was one of the noisy beta testers. We were a loud lot. We bitched. We moaned. We groaned. We probably made the Apple Engineers angry. Whatever they provided (and they were ever so nice in responding) we would demand more. An Apple logo that DID something. We are STILL ticked that there is no Windowshade (why?!?). Fortunately, someone has managed to create a wonderful hack (oh, geez, do the search YOURSELF)... Is it cool? Hell, yes! Is it slick? Makes OS 9 look like your grandfathers car. Is it fool-proof, well, no. But neither is OS 9.2. What I hear when people say "we want it the same" is that they never consider that it might, just MIGHT be better. I have heard people cry out "OS 8.0 isn't like 7.0 it must be the end of civilization!!!!" and yet it wasn't. Compared to what we started with in 1984, this looks GOOD. To be honest, it is faster, easier, and less error-prone than OS 9. For those "old school Mac admins", well, learning something new is not a bad thing.

Re:User base and branding. (1)

analog_line (465182) | more than 12 years ago | (#3180961)

I certainly don't believe it's a bad thing that the admins need to learn. I left the Mac universe about 4 years ago for work and can't-play-the-games-I-want-on-it reasons and i was really excited to hear about what OS X was going to be.

However it is a big scary change for the admins. A necessary change, but scary nonetheless. The Mac generally hid alot of the raw computing tasks from it's users un until 10. Now there's a lot less of the hand-holding left, and it's like a bird getting pushed out of the nest, when it really, by god, needs to learn how to fly.

Made the trade (1)

lunenburg (37393) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144424)

I dumped the only family Windows box this weekend for a used iMac running OSX. Finally - a computer my wife and I can both like. She gets her few applications (Word, email, web) in an easy-to-use package, I get the same great interface with a tasty Unix center. What's not to like?

Damn Straight (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3144559)

When I was a first grader in 1987, my computer had Apple II's. Then when I was in third grade, my dad got a Mac IICX. It sure was better than dos/windows 3.1 It worked beautifully. I didnt understand how people put up with that crap. Then windows 95 came out when I was in eighth grade. I realized that this was "good enough" for most people and a hell of a lot better than win 3.1. Apple wasnt run well in that period and it began to falter. I didnt want my parents changing systems in high school. I used my trusty copy of Word 5.1 from 1992 or 3 all the way until 1999.
My family had a IICX in use from 1990-1993, then a Centris 650 from 1993-1997, and then we decided to buy a clone..a PowerTower 220 from power computing. It was rough from 1995-1997. Copland was supposed to come out, then got hosed. I was ticked! Then I read that the company is about to fail. I didnt want to change to PCs just yet, and my parents who dont have the interest or time to relearn stuff didnt either.

Then something great happened. Apple bought NeXT, and Steve came home. Apple was cool again. It took a while, but Steve cleaned house, and made apple work better. The new OS's (8,9) really helped out.

I kept reading the mac sites now and then and wanted to know about NeXT and the software it made. Knowing that Rhapsody (later OSX - server, then OSX) was a hybrid of OpenStep and OS 9, I then found out that it was based on Unix.) I didnt know what unix was...A kid i knew in high school was the son of the CEO of Tenon, and he loaned me mkLinux, BeOS, and webTen to try out on the spare Jaz drive I had. I got beOS to work, but no MKLinux or webten. Oh well.

1999 comes and I go to college. Im forced to buy a PC for the school. Since im flexible enought to learn how to develop software and try new things, ok, why not use windows?

Windows 98se on the machine I bought had office and visual studio 6. I majored in computer science and did c++ devel for a class. Windows 98se, compared to OS 8.5 (what i used before i went to college) crashed just as much, except it had more apps and a bigger user base. I was non-plussed.

Early 2000 I get Windows 2000 on my computer. Damn! An os that almost never crashes! Still windows, still uninspiring. I still kept looking at the mac side of things. I see the new Aqua interface -- Ive used kaleidoscope, so why not try something new.

At home, my parent's power tower was starting to show it's age....I told my dad to hold off on a new mac until OSX in a usable form comes out.

As soon as I get a cd burner and another hard drive on my pc, I install linux (Red hat 7.0) on it. I broke red hat 7 so many times i gave up. The damn modem didnt work! No sound! I then spend a lot of time reading about it. And hacking on it. I can do ANYTHING on this OS(provided you spend massive amounts of time learning it)! 3 cds and tons of software for FREE!

I always got lectured about pirating software. I read about the BSA raids. GPL software convienently says up yours to the BSA. With GPL software, you have tons of choices, plus code, and you can use it for free!

I then get mandrake 8.0, then 8.1, and linux is much much better to use. I slowly learn more command line stuff. I could use it for my daily OS, but im not sure if everything completely works. I love the power associated in that system. Mandrake 8 just felt a little lacking of something.

In the mean time i was reading about the OSX betas. I found out that OSX was BSD Unix (pretty damn powerful) underneath, and that tons of open source software could be ported to it easily. I was intrigued, but i kept slogging away with mandrake, then windows.

Last XMas break, with OS X 10.1 out and Office v.X out, I decided to pull the plug and force my dad to switch at home. New G4, new firewire scanner, new monitor. I spend 2 days importing the old software over a network connection. The old stuff works well in classic. Then I install Office V.x. That is a wonderful piece of software, if not a little expensive.

Epson scanner does not work with OSX. Printing with Epson inkjet stinks.
Photoshop Elements has goofy printing issues with OSX in classic mode

I teach my dad extensively about OSX. It was a great idea to switch to the new system. A little rough at first, but seriously, you dont make an omlette without breaking a couple of eggs.

At college, I take a java programming course. I use forte for java and its kinda neat. Java is a nice diversion from c++.

Then I remember about the yellow box apps that apple was going to come out with. I download the Apple Developer Tools from their website and start to fool around with that.

Cocoa is the most advanced programming environment I've ever seen. Extremely simple, yet powerful. People are already programming loads of stuff to it. If you have access to OSX and know either Java/C++/RealBasic, download the developer tools and spend $50 to buy Aaron Hilleglass's cocoa book. You will not regret it and from my reaction im amazed at what I can do.

I dont think Im the only one. As more and more Linux users get fed up with linux, I think they will gravitate to OSX. It has BSD Unix power underneath, you can run java and unix apps and X-11 apps on it, and you get Unix programs on it for free!

Then once they hit the developer tools and start messing around with Cocoa, I dont think they'll go back.

The only obstacles to this are buying Mac Hardware (those iMacs are cheap, and the iBooks go from 1-2 grand), and in the case of learning Objective-C, if you let Aaron Hilleglass's book help you, you can do it in 1 day.

Whats 1 more language if you know several anyway?
You can code cocoa apps with Java but I recommend objective C. Try it and find out.

The Cocoa dev community is small now, but slowly, it will get huge. 1 cocoa developer can make an application with less code and more funcionality that will run rings around any other app.

WebObjects for database stuff.

For the end user, programmers getting exposed to this might stick with it, and make some really cool programs. Linux people might make them free!
More programs make end users more productive.

If you have OSX, download watson. Its made with cocoa. It's the best web program i've seen.

Go to osx.hyperjeff.net and download cocoa programs. They are great.

The old users (soccer moms, designers, creative people) might object at first to learning a new system. Yeah, some programs might have to be replaced. OSX is the future. It's either that or windows. I strongly encourage legacy creative Mac users to stay on as Unix/Linux developers learn Cocoa and make absolutely fantastic programs. I want to make programs for you guys that do what you want, and this is a way that I can do it fast, quickly, elegantly, and free!

I just bought one today (3, Interesting)

xinu (64069) | more than 12 years ago | (#3144668)

I went out and bought a new G4 today. My reason to switch? MANY... True plug and play for the hardware ((and top notch hardware at that) and I'm sick of playing the update my drivers(WinXX) or kernel(Linux) daily), UNIX underpinnings (being a Solaris admin I love it for myriads of reasons), GUI simplicity (let's face it, I'm lazy when I get home from work and those iApps kick butt also), and with VirtualPC I can still run any Winblows app that I might need. I couldn't think of a more perfect solution. Plus a sexy lookin machine with a sexy desktop is just icing on the cake.

My apolagies to the die hard Mac crowd, I hate to hear that any company is leaving their core customer group behind. But let's face it, every company sells out eventually. I have to admit they should have made it an entirely different OS product line.

But hey, I love this computing solution! And I haven't been excited about a computer since I got my first Apple //e as a teenager...

Re:I just bought one today (2, Insightful)

infernalC (51228) | more than 12 years ago | (#3145038)

I don't think they are leaving the right-brained folks behind; I just don't understand why they didn't do this a lot earlier.

They could never have continued the classic MacOS line. The memory managemant sucked donkey balls. You had to preset limits on memory usage on th binaries themselves; it was total crap. So was windows with its crappy GP faults. It seemed that every time you launched another application there was some sort of shared-memory violation.

Many UNIX variants have had memory management right since the 70's, and so has VMS. It seems that Apple and Microsoft ran the only bad systems on the block.

You should never need to recompile kernels daily. Learn to use kernel modules. Easy, easy, easy.

ready to make the switch (4, Interesting)

RestiffBard (110729) | more than 12 years ago | (#3146438)

I once was one of those jackasses that despised the mac without actually knowing much about it. too my shame. I've grown up though. I use linux now and can't say enough good things about it. I only boot into windows to play tony hawk2. I have to say that for the first time I'm drooling for a mac. there are multiple reasons but i suppose the top two are that i understand i can run linuxppc on it. and two macs just look so cool these days. the new os the new hardware makes me drool. I have mac envy. I've always built my own machines but I'm looking forward to putting my tax refund towars the purchase of one of those nifty 14.1 in iBooks. can't wait to get one. I just hope the mac community will welcome me the way that linux did and not with the blase who cares attitude that windows just ignored me.

I welcome the new crowd (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3146619)

asa long time mac user (10 years) i am so excited about all the new blood coming to the platform. Wasnt sure what to expect given how slashot has treated mac in past. But that being said, this is one most exciting times in apples history. Every day i check out versiontracker and i am so happy to see all these new cooca apps. Im a science geek, and it thrills me to see all those unix science apps being ported, maya and the 3d rendering software apple has just bought make me glad i didnt ditch apple to use 3d studio max on a pc.
and the thing that is probably the most surprisng is realizing apple and linux rather then being polar opposites can now compliment each other quite nicely, with unix apps coming to the mac and hopefully better device drivers and new apps being made for linux simulatenously , that togther maybe these platforms can shake up the windows domination just a little.

I am a UNIX user of 11 years (1)

FreeMyBSD (93922) | more than 12 years ago | (#3161533)


I recently bought a new iMac and switched over to OSX.

My experience includes primarily Solaris, FreeBSD and a smidgen of everything else.

I love OS X. It is by far the best UNIX OS I have ever used. I just wished they would get rid of Netinfo.

So now you like it ... ? (1)

blakespot (213991) | more than 12 years ago | (#3162658)

All you folks that are in a reverie of joy in using Mac OS X would have been in a similar reverie if you had just given NeXTSTEP a chance. It was (almost) all there, back as far as '88 when the OS rolled out. OS X, for me, is (finally) validation that, YES, NeXTSTEP is better than sex!

blakespot
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