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More on Dell Dropping Linux Support

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the company-politics dept.

The Almighty Buck 392

coolgeek writes: "In this previous Slashdot story, we discussed Dell's claims of slow sales as their reason for dropping Linux support. (article on c|net News.com). Today, this article on Reuters news reports: 'Citing internal Microsoft memos, the nine states also said that in 2000 and 2001 Microsoft pressured Dell Computer Corp. into dropping plans to offer the open-source Linux operating system on some machines it sells.'" Update by HNQ: eWeek got more details about the memos. Update: 03/19 12:26 GMT by M : I think Hetz accidentally changed this story's setting when he added the update above. Fixed.

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392 comments

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LINUX RULLEEZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!! (-1)

Eso (205333) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185863)

I want to get one of those Dell laptops with a built in VDV drive.

WE THANK YOU FOR J00R SUPPORT (-1)

L.Torvalds (548450) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185889)

Now go forth, young man, and Haxor! :) ;) ^o^

THe ascii smiley faces will garner me much karma!

VDV = VENEREAL DISEASE or VIRUS (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185891)

Nutz on 'ya chin.

I doubt it, (1)

laptop006 (37721) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185864)

But it does seem like Microsoft,
I feel that it would be more likely that Microsoft asked Dell, and Dell saw that they wern't making much money, asked Microsoft to give them the amount they were making on linux and gave up on linux.

maybe true... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185883)

...since it's all about liscenses. That, and how many boxes are going out each quarter. Dell could have tossed the Linux quota and asked MS to fill the $$ void, but.....why would they do that? What would it get them that they didn't already have?

Given that everyone knows MS is predatory (sic), it is much more likely that MS leaned on Dell to stick to the original game plan, that's all. And remember, this is all in the name of capitalizm...until push turns to shove....then it's monopolistic. So, was this event a push or a shove?

Re:I doubt it, (2)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186043)

As much as I hate to agree with you I think you are right. DELL is the number one PC supplier and they need volume. If LINUX only sells a small amount then the infrastructure that DELL needs may be too big. Also DELL may have seen that the folks who actually buy and use LINUX do not need support. Either way you look at it, DELL does not make extra money.

I would get concerned if DELL started building notebooks that could not run LINUX...

first post (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185865)

blah. microsoft sucks. thats about it to know. mod me up scotty

FP!! (-1, Offtopic)

geoffwa (42720) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185866)

FP!!!111

I am l33t... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185868)

Because I got FP!

When I ordered from Dell... (3, Funny)

mi (197448) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185869)

...a couple of years ago -- the machine arrived with Windows installed anyway -- even though I was not charged for it. Too bad, I wanted to see how Linux ships. Then I went on and installed FreeBSD, of course...

*BSD is dying (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185918)

It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying

Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

Recently, Slashdot [goatse.cx] confirmed that FreeBSD has been given away by WindRiver to FreeBSD Mall, for a carton of Winstons and a six-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon. This only serves to confirm the fact that FreeBSD is unwanted, doomed to be passed around like a harelip orphan from one foster parent to another.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dead

Re:*BSD is dying (1)

Milican (58140) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185972)

I dunno man. My webpage is hosted at Pair Networks [pair.net] and they have FreeBSD boxes. I never thought *BSD was bad ass, but I have hosted off and on through them for the last 3 years or so after getting a recommendation from Tom's Hardware [tomshardware.com] . If I had a server I think I would look into it, but for me Linux works just fine.

JOhn

Drop drop it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185871)

while it ain't hot make ya drop linux cause it ain't hot.

Wonder what Dell will have to say (5, Funny)

cyberformer (257332) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185874)

My guess is that the "poor sales" they referred to were actually poor sales of Windows (ie. only 99% of Dell PCs were shipping with Windows, as opposed to the 100% that is required in Gates's "competitive marketplace").


I wonder if Dell will have anything to say. The article just has comments from the states and Microsoft.

Re:Wonder what Dell will have to say (1)

yatest5 (455123) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185956)

My guess is that the "poor sales" they referred to were actually poor sales of Windows (ie. only 99% of Dell PCs were shipping with Windows, as opposed to the 100% that is required in Gates's "competitive marketplace").

Er, no, my guess is that the poor sales referred to linux boxes, as stated originally.

Preloads... (4, Insightful)

s390 (33540) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185877)

are Microsoft's air supply. They'll battle red in tooth and claw for preloads. But if they lose them, well... Windows is dead, we all know this.

Re:Preloads... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185910)

Uh no. We don't know that. What would fill the void? Linux? You make me laugh.

No matter how you slice it, it's a Microsoft world (or Mac, if you want to consider it a viable Windows alternative).

Re:Preloads... (1)

beckett (27524) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185913)

how will windows be dead? i'm not trying to flamebait, but while this may have been true for 95/98, when 2k and XP came out Microsoft finally achieved stability on their platform.

Windows is now stable and it can operates happily in the background with uptimes of days, weeks and months. i don't want to get into an OS war, but for the majority of end users, they requested windows, even when it was still buggy. again, this is nothing new. Microsoft is just the de facto standard for home now.

what Dell really misses out on by dropping Linux is the server market. they're simply ignoring (or pressured out of) the market of servers that can be administrated wonderfully with linux. THIS is the point of superiority that we can all agree with.

Re:Preloads... (5, Interesting)

rseuhs (322520) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185927)

2/3 of Windows users are still running Win98, a 4 year onld OS, which is just a minor step up from Win95, a 7 year old OS.

People are not interested in paying for updates and they sure won't be delighted when their "ultra-stable" (LOL) WinXP box dies and they find out they won't get any activation code anymore. (Microsoft didn't guarantee that they will send out codes in 5 years, did they? - Hell they didn't even make a worthless promise.)

PC-makers are not interested in sending an ever increasing share of their revenue directly to Microsoft. 10 years ago, DOS made up less than 2% of a computer's total price, today that number is over 10% and rising every year.

It's just a matter of time, and the first signs are already observable [yahoo.com] .

"A minor step up from Win95" (-1)

L.Torvalds (548450) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185977)

Sort of like how Linux itself is a crap 10+ year old OS?

Re:Preloads... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185991)

nice link to one story. OH NO IT SURELY IS THE END OF MICROSOFT. what tech-savy person would buy a pc from wal-mart anyway? and aren't linux users hippies anyway? doesn't wal-mart rape asian countries for cheap child labor?

Re:Preloads... (2, Insightful)

robinjo (15698) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186001)

However, it's easy peasy for those Win98 users to upgrade to more stable Windows versions. Their old software works and the OS is pretty similar to use.

If they upgrade to Linux, there's a lot more to learn and new software to buy/find to replace their current Windows apps. When you think about it, the licence costs are not that bad compared to the loss of time.

Don't underestimate the difficulties. Linux is cool, it's fast and it has great apps but that isn't good enough for people to dump a working solution and take a step towards the unknown.

Re:Preloads... (2, Insightful)

rseuhs (322520) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186068)

However, it's easy peasy for those Win98 users to upgrade to more stable Windows versions. Their old software works and the OS is pretty similar to use.

I've seen an XP-user unsuccessfully trying to run Worms Armageddon, so it's not that "easy peasy".

If they upgrade to Linux, there's a lot more to learn and new software to buy/find to replace their current Windows apps. When you think about it, the licence costs are not that bad compared to the loss of time.

If that were true why is Microsoft fighting so desperately to prevent an open marketplace where computers are sold with or without OS just like they are sold with or without monitor?

Face it: The majority of people only want a browser, email and a .doc-compatible Word-processor. KDE/Linux and StarOffice can provide that easily. They will just use what is preinstalled, will not upgrade and will install few if any updates and software.

And of course there are also power-users who prefer KDE over the minimalistic Windows-GUI.

I see no reason why those people should not be allowed to choose between a Linux-machine and a Windows-machine which is 10 to 15% more expensive.

And: No I don't think the majority will choose Linux. No, I don't think Linux is the best solution for the majority, yet. But for about 30 to 40% it is the best solution right NOW and forcing them to use and pay for another solution is just plain communism. (to use a word that Microsoft-fans like to use)

Wal-Mart is in the linux business (5, Insightful)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186039)

I was as shocked as anybody. I went in to buy toilet paper and a dog toy, and decided for fun to see what software they had. To my surprise, on the top shelf, displayed prominently right beside Windows XP and Office XP, were boxed distros of Mandrake, Red Hat, and SuSE. I almost had a heart attack. (I don't go to the electronics area at Walmart, well, ever. Except for yesterday.)

Also, this part of the article misses the point and will confuse those "non-tech savvy" folks it hoped to enlighten:

The risk for Walmart.com is that some customers shopping for a deal may unwittingly buy the computer and discover later that they
have to buy a version of Microsoft Windows, which could cost hundreds of dollars.

Truth is Windows costs hundreds of dollars whether it's pre-bundled with the hardware or not, and it always has. The difference is many users don't notice that cost when they pay as a portion of their pc's purchase price rather than actually handing the cashier a product that rings up $299.99.

Re:Preloads... (3, Interesting)

Znork (31774) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185948)

Because even if it's getting more stable, people wont pay that much extra for it. As long as they can collect money off the preload buisness they get a revenue stream where they dont have to get the money out of the customer, but can rely on someone else to do it for them. If they lose the ability to control the distribution channels and people can get a cheaper PC as easy with Linux preloaded, preconfigured, and supported, Microsoft will start losing sales, and when they start slipping they wont stop, because Microsoft is the only who wants Microsoft around in the entire computer industry.

Everyone, their partners, their vendors, the content providers, the competition, everyone, fears and hates them, because they know that Microsoft will 'cut off their air supply' and give it to their competitors (or take it themselves) the moment they like someone else better. Microsoft has made clear that there is only room for one company in the PC consumer market, and that is Microsoft.

Look at the former east block to see how that works out. When you start losing control, things fall apart.

Re:Preloads... (3, Interesting)

rseuhs (322520) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185962)

Exactly [yahoo.com]

Some people don't realize that the incentive not to install Windows increases every year because Windows makes up a higher and higher share.

Eric Raymond is right, cheap PCs will kill Windows, it's just a matter of time.

Re:Preloads... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185984)

Eric "Insanely Weathly" Raymond is dumb.

Rumors of 'Microsoft will be dead in two years because [insert whatever reasone pulled out of someone ass here]' are getting very old. Microsoft will not let anyone attacking their monopoly. They can give windows for free, and get an Office tax. But not before they'll have milked the consumer to death.

Don't underestimate Microsoft.

Re:Preloads... (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186056)

I know. ESR should be shot. The man is a loon, slashdot should stop posting all his interviews. All the "Libertarians" are tweaked, from Ayn Rand(the domineering cult leader) to ESR("X doesn't get it"). The only one who does not get it is, ESR.

Even if 25% of people choose a non windows OS (2)

HanzoSan (251665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185996)


Windows is dead.
Theres no way more than 60% will choose windows.

Most people dont like windows but werent given a choice, given a choice, alot of people wont choose windows, and windows will fail as more and more people begin to switch to better OS's

How the de facto became de facto.... (5, Interesting)

jawtheshark (198669) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186032)

Actually....you have it the wrong way around. Windows (mostly the NT incarnations) are the de facto standard in companies. This is not because of the OS (tough I tend to like NT4), but because of the Office suite. I have a lot of banking experience and many, many transactions are still done with simple terminal screens to big irons protected from the outside world. Heck, I had to make front-ends for these things and the users wanted to have the same look and feel (don't ask!)

Now the point is here that history has made the x86 platform as home computer because back in the days when a an XT was 5000$, the only people who could afford it were the bussiness men who wanted to do a bit of Lotus 123 at home. Of course these bought IBM machines that came with MS-Dos (I'm not kidding you...my dad was one of those loonies..tough it was a PS/2 in later times) All other computer *enthousiasts* were on Commodore 64, Sinclairs, BBC's....heck I'm probably even mixing decades here.
Later on when computers got cheaper (think 486, but were still expensive enough), people started to buy those for home use. You know the primary excuse for a home PC (bought by adults) was back then to do a bit word processing and spreadsheeting. Guess, what that is the stuff they (eventually) did at work and so the choice was clear: buy a PC. Yes, and the computer enthousiasts still used their Amiga's.
Now one could say that times have changed: now people admit they buy the computer for entertainment (surfing/games). I'm not sure if people still select at home what they use at work or if the tides have turned and home usage infuences work usage now. Now imagine businesses would massively switch to Linux (because MS gets even worse with licencing than it now is, and decision makers have the *balls* to say no...which I personally highly doubt) Woudn't this refect automagically into a higher demand for Linux home machines? I think so! People buy what they are used to, not what is good... Joe users dreads to learn about PC's.

I agree that W2k is a fine OS (tough I still prefer NT4), but I woudn't put it on a server....not anymore, I got the feeling of *BSD and for me a good Unix server is a *BSD server. For home usage W2K it's okay: you turn on the puter a couple of hours a day and it's stable enough for that: uptimes simply are not important for home usage. Win 9x kernels however were never suitable for anything... I don't know XP enough (only used one PC with drivers problems at a friends place), but it seemed very very bloated to me. (even more than W2K!)
Personally I have changed, I was an MS-Dos man, hated Win 1.0 to Win 3.xx and loved OS/2 (which died an absurd death). I had to get over to Win 95 and hated NT4 until I learned the strengths of it. Lately I have learned Linux, but I saw the light withing OSX. For me OSX is the machine for home use, if you're not into gaming of course...the only reason I now have to use a Windows incarnation are games and fortunately I'm not a big gamer.

Re:Preloads... (1)

bigbadwlf (304883) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186084)

when 2k and XP came out Microsoft finally achieved stability on their platform

CodeRed.

Obvious (2)

MrDoh! (71235) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185880)

Oh come on.
would this really be a surprise to ANYONE?
if you was in charge of a Linux software co., wouldn't you wake up each morning wishing you could get the big manufacturers to pre-install Linux instead of Windows?

Doh!

IF I WERE IN CHAREGE OF A LINUX SOFTWARE COMPANY.. (-1)

L.Torvalds (548450) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185923)

I would wake up extra early, so that I am not late for my bread-winning job at McDonalds.

If I were REALLY lucky, I would sell the company to VA Software for $10 and a blowjob.

Dell (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185881)

Dell is dropping most of its support staff PERIOD. I was just laid off as a Dell Outsourcer, I had been working there 2 years putting myself through college. At least 10 sites of hundreds of techs just got laid off. As outsource agents, there was no big stink on the board and among stockholders because we were contracted, they probably don't even know about it.

If you buy from those thieves (oh, the corporate memos I could recite), expect a nice long wait for tech support now..

support staff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185888)

So what is going on that support staff can be jetisoned? Is Dell getting ready to hand off to IBM, again?

Re:support staff (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185934)

Believe it or not, they're making the HSB (home and small business) que entirely seasonal due to the massive amounts of calls in the fall/winter and almost none in the spring/summer seasons. When you call needing support on your Optiplex workstation, know that you're talking to someone hired off the street for $8 an hour.

Re:Dell (0, Offtopic)

lunartik (94926) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185911)

Dude, are you Steve?

Re:Dell (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186082)

Yeah! I missed you at lunch today.

Hugs and kisses,
Steve

Honestly (1)

Taliban Lecher (539524) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185882)

I highly doubt they would have been able to ship a distro that suits MY needs. Except for some feature cool hardware stuff dell has (which might not be that cheap to weave into a distro) like remote admin, detect the case were open etc.

And also, guys and gals, you think a single distro by dell could go through /. unflamed?

But then again, they didnt ship OpenBSD either, even though, there is just none of that distro war (and that BSD chitchat does not count).

Re:Honestly (1)

lunartik (94926) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185907)

It might not be perfect for you specifically, but it'd probably get non-linux users to play around with it and perhaps become hooked.

Re:Honestly (1)

Taliban Lecher (539524) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185917)

what I was after is: if they want to make money with it, they would propably aim to server market or business integration.

To play around with a dell machine is somehow expensive and doesnt even burn dvds or connect to an iPod.

So come up with more ideas to make linux on dell machines useful and it will make arguing even harder. It is hard to ship a single distro for such blurry idea of a purpose, like play around.

You can make surf stations, developer workstations, servers etc all fine with linux and propably they will all look different or leave the customer with loads of config hassle.

A Sad...Sad... Day...... (0, Offtopic)

bgog (564818) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185885)

It's really too bad. I build a drink-coaster which runs linux. I'd like to see XP do that!

obvious. (1)

prentis (534152) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185886)

I dont see any other reson for Dell to drop linux suport, i think the 2 or 3 % of the market that uses linux on the desktop would justify emploing a 5 people team to make custom images for the different dell models.
And lets not forget about the server market where linux is much more popular, and the fact that linux custumors are much more loyal to companies that does The right Thing TM.

Oh hurt me (4, Insightful)

Arker (91948) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185887)

Microsoft warned that the sanctions sought by the dissenting states would cause havoc in the computer industry and force the company to withdraw its Windows operating system from the market.

This is hardly the first time they've 'threatened' to pick up their marbles and go home. They would like to portray themselves as a veritable Rearden Metals, but in fact Bill Gates has at least as much in common with Boyle as he does with Rearden.


Would it really be such a disastrous thing if MSFT simply "withdrew from the market?" Hah. Doooonnnnn't throw me into that brer patch, whatever you do!


The short term results would include a little disruption, opportunities for the quick witted but a bit of pain for the slow ones. Within a year the industry would be in much better shape though, one way or another. I can only hope MS would be stupid enough to actually carry through on that threat.

Re:Oh hurt me (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185979)

B. Gates threatened to get out of the software business after he found people were sharing the BASIC interpreter he bought and branded M$ in the late 1970's. He swore everyone were thieves and pirates. XP and the wretched development tools are the end result of Paranoid Billy's Revenge On The Nerds.

It's not like they have a monopoly?!? (2, Interesting)

Johnny O (22313) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185897)

[...snip...]
Microsoft warned that the sanctions sought by the dissenting states would cause havoc in the computer industry and force the company to withdraw its Windows operating system from the market.

"It will have a devastating impact on Microsoft. It will have a devastating impact on the PC ecosystem and particularly consumers," Webb said.
[...snip...]

Why? It's not like they have a monopoly on the PC OS market?!? Is it?!? :-) *insert heavy sarcasm here*

Re:It's not like they have a monopoly?!? (1)

yatest5 (455123) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185960)

Why? It's not like they have a monopoly on the PC OS market?!? Is it?!? :-) *insert heavy sarcasm here*

Ah ha - conclusive proof that americans don't understand sarcasm. You need to start being sarcastic *whilst you are still speaking*.

Re:It's not like they have a monopoly?!? (1)

Rakarra (112805) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186033)

"It will have a devastating impact on Microsoft. It will have a devastating impact on the PC ecosystem and particularly consumers," Webb said. [...snip...]

Why? It's not like they have a monopoly on the PC OS market?!? Is it?!? :-) *insert heavy sarcasm here*

Yeah... so? There's no law against having a monopoly. The lawsuit against Microsoft wasn't about whether they had a monopoly or not. Microsoft didn't do much to claim they didn't have a monopoly. Where you start having problems is when you ask if a monopoly abused its monopoly position.

Re:It's not like they have a monopoly?!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186057)

"Yeah... so? There's no law against having a monopoly."

Funny, I coulda sworn that the Sherman Anti-Trust laws were laws making monopolies illegal.

Re:It's not like they have a monopoly?!? (2)

JPriest (547211) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186071)

Funny, I coulda sworn that the Sherman Anti-Trust laws were laws making monopolies illegal. Yes but had Microsoft had never demonstrated "anti competitave acts", they would have a MUCH harder time against them in court.

PC ecosystem?! (3, Funny)

unsinged int (561600) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185898)

"It will have a devastating impact on Microsoft. It will have a devastating impact on the PC ecosystem and particularly consumers," Webb said.

Wow. We have an ecosystem? Cool. So for Microsoft this is just one of those predator-prey relationships gone horribly wrong..."when prey fights back" or some such possible Discovery channel title. I can't wait for the movie.

Linux on Laptops ... (3, Informative)

gerddie (173963) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185900)

By the end of last year I wanted to buy a notebook. I asked Dell if I can get one with Linux pre-loaded, or at least without any OS. They answered, if I would by 100+ of them, then I could get Linux pre-loaded, and they were silent about the "no OS" option.
So it seems they were not too eager, to support linux, at least here in Germany.

Re:Linux on Laptops ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185939)

If you buy 100 of dell laptop with preloaded linux, could you please choose the latitude c400 ?

Maybe it'll force dell to update their buggy BIOS so we can run xfree on those beasts (dell fucked up the VGA BIOS of the i830M and it cannot support more than 1Mb of video ram under X. Intel explained that it is dell fault, but Dell don't care at all). :-)

More seriously, STAY AWAY FROM THE c400. It is an horrible buggy as hell machine, even under win2k.

Cheers,

--fred

huh? (2, Interesting)

epiphani (254981) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185901)

I ordered probably around 8 rackmountable dell machines with redhat preinstalled in 2001. If M$ was pressuring them to avoid using linux, then they obviously didnt do a good job.

Re:huh? (3, Insightful)

Znork (31774) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185920)

This was about stopping Dell from shipping Linux for desktop machines, not rack mountable servers.

Microsoft knows that as long as they control the desktop they can eventually take the server market. After all, what good is a server if the clients wont talk to it? They know that the only thing that can ever imperil them is if they lose control over the desktop, because if they do lose control they're dead in a year or two.

Clients can be independent of servers (2)

Glorat (414139) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185982)

"Microsoft knows that as long as they control the desktop they can eventually take the server market. After all, what good is a server if the clients wont talk to it?"

Eh? I would disagree with that or rather say that is too simplistic a view to take, especially without giving any argument as to why it should be so. I'll take the simplistic examples that a vast proportion of "Web-Servers" are running Apache on anything other than Windows (they use Solaris, Linux...) but the vast majority of clients are on Windows.

What is the real issue between the client/server relationship? I would say the answer is protocols. As long as you have open protocols like HTTP, SOAP, java-based etc. then the opersating system of client and server can be independent. Now, one could argue if a monopolised company took over the desktop market, they could be forced to use certain proprietary protocols that only work on proprietary servers. But Microsoft aren't gonna gamble that much with their monopoly. Notice their protocol of choice for .NET is SOAP which is an open protocol

So open protocols means that the desktop OS won't take over the server OS

Re:Clients can be independent of servers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186014)

Dream on.

MSDOS -> Windows -> Word -> Office -> Outlook -> Exchange.

Run an exchange server on linux. Or get something that integrate as well with the client OS. Good luck.

Exchange and SQL Server are the two current trojan from Microsoft.

If they control the client OS space, they control the server. Open protocols means shit. While you look at the "open" SOAP protocol, I'll pass proprietary formats with that open protocol.

Re:Clients can be independent of servers (3, Informative)

Znork (31774) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186028)

They dont have to gamble much. Take, for example, mail. 'Use Exchange. If you dont, we'll raise the price for your desktop support contracts'. Want to use Samba to reduce fileserver costs? Ooops, every time a new version of Windows is released things start inexplicably breaking. Authentication is another prime target for incompatibility... kerberos being a good example.

Protocols can be corrupted, embraced and extended, or simply blackmailed around. Not to mention if the SSSCA gets passed and we get some form of DRM integrated, in which case they can have the clients simply refuse to talk to non-DRM capable servers, and have law on their side.

dogma detected! (1)

koekepeer (197127) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186005)

[quote]
Microsoft knows that as long as they control the desktop they can eventually take the server market.
[/quote]

oh and where was that rule carved in stone? how does this rule allow for the rise of linux server installs the last few years? the only server os that seems to be able to grow at a comparable rate to NT is linux. how can linux compete with ms on the server market when ms already controls the desktop and has controlled it for years?

microsoft does use it's embrace&extend strategies on the server market, but their desktops needed non-windows protocols to talk to the outside world (think tcpip). actually, if ms hadn't adapted their desktop clients to speak to unix servers, it wouldn't have ruled the desktop as it does now. i don't see al lot of "netbui" (or whatever they call it) networks in places where i work...

all IM-not-so-HO of course...

In unrelated news... (2, Funny)

neurojab (15737) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185905)

In unrelated news, Dell CEO Michael Dell was given a speeding ticket in a new Ferrari 360. When asked where he got the car, Dell responded "it fell off the truck". When asked for his liscence, he "accidentally" handed over his freshly-inked honorary MCSE. He was promptly arrested for assulting an officer of the law.

How Do They Know? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185906)

Do their figures include machines bought without operating systems or just the ones where they shipped RedHat with the machines?

We've bought 10 Dell servers to run SuSE and I bet we're not alone.

Normally there is no point paying people like Dell to install Linux for you anyway because they don't set it up how you want it.

If you'll end up trashing it, setting up a decent partitioning scheme and reinstalling it then you might as well save a few quid on having them muck it up first.

Dell was always Microsoft's bitch (5, Interesting)

rseuhs (322520) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185914)

First they quietly introduce Linux on desktops so that even their own salespeople don't know about it. Of course they only sell to the U.S. and not to Germany where Linux marketshare is several times higher.

Then instead of quietly removing Linux-support, all online-newspapers are running a story about Dell dicontinuing Linux on the desktop.

Am I the only one who thinks this is fishy?

This is gay (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185941)

What did nerds like us do in the 1800's? Oh yeah, get beat up a lot

Bets on the next MS Buzzword (1)

gazdean (71600) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185924)

What is it the Microsoft and buzzwords. First they went around innovating anything and everything. Now all we ever hear is ecosystem. What's the next one gonna be? Trustability, netcentric, permafrost?

Re:Bets on the next MS Buzzword (1)

dvNull (235982) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185929)

The next buzzword is thingamabob

dvNull

Re:Bets on the next MS Buzzword (1)

Yorrike (322502) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186059)

The next buzzword to look out for is "Marketecture". I serious, I've actually seen it used (can't remember where though, sorry for the lack of a link).

here it goes (0, Offtopic)

jamesconf (551862) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185930)

"all strems belong to us"

Urgent Linux news (not a troll, check the proofs!) (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185935)

I would like to bring to the attention of my fellow Slashdot readers some troubling news: Linux is being used by Al Qaeda, Abu Sayyaf, and other terrorist organizations with equally cool sounding names as an affordable and powerful tool for purposes of recruitment, passing coded messages regarding planned terrorist operations, and other insidious purposes. I will attempt to show some of the more obvious proofs I have discovered to back up my arguments.

  • The presence of an Islamic calendar (cal-islam.elc) as included with the xemacs package. This calendar is likely being used for determining significant dates (such as September 11) for terrorist attacks.
  • The word "terror" is mentioned several times in the Linux kernel source code (svr4.c in the abi/svr4 directory). This file was written by Mike "Jagdis" whose name itself is an obvious Islamic reference to terrorism.
  • The phrase, "terrorist act" is actually present in drivers/char/ip2main.c.
  • There are several
    references to the WTC buildings, again in the Linux kernel source code (in the drivers/scsi directory).
  • The freetype code includes the file internal/tterrors.h -- an obvious reference to "international terrorism".
  • Various files in drivers/char and drivers/scsi refer to "religious disputes" and "religious issues" (likely, the issues between God fearing American christians and evil Islamic terror mongers).
  • The word "plane" (a reference to the tragic airplane hijackings of September 11th) appears in several places in the drivers/char/drm directory.
  • Various references to the words "evil", "destroy", "bomb", "warrior", and "hate" scattered in places too numerous to mention.
  • The word "hijack" appears in Documentation/kernel-docs.txt, and "hijacking" in drivers/char/ChangeLog, which is also an obvious suggestion for future attacks.
  • The file fs/jffs/intrep.c contains the phrase, "Might as well commit suicide", which is an obvious suggestion to would-be terrorists to
    commit suicide bombings.
  • One of the maintainers goes by the name, "Andreas Bombe", with the e-mail address, andreas.bombe@munich.netsurf.de [mailto] . Obviously this is a hidden message indicating the next target for terrorist bombings is some place in Munich, Germany.
  • Take a look at the book cover [amazon.com] of ``Professional Linux Programming'' and decide for yourself which of the 15 authors has obvious terrorist links.

I am sure I have only scratched the surface of this disturbing conspiracy. I strongly urge the Slashdot readership to support American companies such as Microsoft [microsoft.com] who only hire patriotic American citizens and to boycott any company which is involved with Linux (as they are directly supporting terrorists). I sincerely hope the CIA or FBI can look into the actions of
open source developers. People like Linus Torvalds should be taken into custody and have all assets seized.

Act now before it is too late!

Re:Urgent Linux news (not a troll, check the proof (0, Offtopic)

DarkZero (516460) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185981)

Keep up the good work, trolls. We salute your valiant efforts to bring some much needed off-the-wall humor to us in times of boring and predictable stories.

Yep, they're boned now (2)

Maserati (8679) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185954)

If there wasn't any pressure on Dell from Microsoft, why... then I'm a Republican !


This is pretty clear evidence of anti-competitive behavior. My guess is that that 34 states still going after Microsoft are going to have a field day with this. They do have documents to prove the allegation.


Note from the Reuters article: "Webb [Microsoft attorney] said the states' proposals ... were designed to benefit Microsoft's competitors."

Golly Mr. Webb, an antitrust remedy is supposed to help the competitors who were harmed, that's the whole point !


I really hate seeing criminals whining about their punishment, yank their bleeding charter. oh wait, they're chartered in Delaware - it'll never happen.

Re:Yep, they're boned now (2)

streetlawyer (169828) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186044)

Jesus Christ. Your standard of evidence is "Well, I'm sure it must have been the case, so it's clear evidence". Talk about lynch law.

And antitrust law is there to protect competition, not any individual competitor

Did Dell even offer Linux? Could have fooled me. (5, Insightful)

mmusn (567069) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185957)

As far as I can tell, Dell has never made much of an effort to sell Linux on their machines.

I have bought several Dell machines through work. You know: "workstations" for engineering and scientific applications. If that isn't where you would run Linux, I don't know where you would. Dell didn't sell Linux pre-installed on those machines. Our sales rep promised to credit us for Windows and ship the machines without an OS, but they ended up shipping with Windows anyway and charging us for it as well. Going through the hassle of sending the stuff back and refusing payment would have cost more than to just pay the Microsoft tax.

If Dell has sold Linux on their PCs at all, it must have been on some low-end or mid-range machines that engineers probably wouldn't want anyway.

As far as I can tell, Dell's Linux efforts were a publicity stunt of no real value. Perhaps Microsoft put them up to it so that they could point to some supposed "competition".

a poem about it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185971)


Dell has been offering Linux only on
workstations you idiot. go to the dell
website and try configuring a workstation.


nobody here believes you use
'scientific workstations' at 'work'
anyway, you pimply faced fuck.

Re:a poem about it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186008)

Yes, they have been offering it only on workstations, but not always on all their workstations. Is the difference too hard to grasp for your little mind? Besides, no matter what you tell them, they seem to ship Windows anyway.

you guys ... =P (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185958)

You wacky gnunerds... *sigh*

I guess Linux deserves to fail, if you guys can't even do business. tee hee!

Happy to have helped my state fight M$ (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3185959)

As a concerned consumer and as a software developer for 20+ years, I wrote to the Florida State Attorney's office and stated my position on this and included some technical reasons how the monopoly affects developers and users. Apparently many more did as well since the latest trial is including more about the actual problems in buying a PC without being forced to pay the M$ tax and having a pre-load of another system.

As Earl Pitts says, "Wake up America". Write your government officials instead of just bitching on /. or in a newsgroup.

Steven says: (0, Flamebait)

BitwizeGHC (145393) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185961)

"Dude, why do you even want that Linux stuff anyway, when you can get the SWEET new Windows XP on your Dell Dimension?"

Pitty... Dell + Linux works nicely. (4, Interesting)

Arimus (198136) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185966)

I'm running an old poweredge 6300 with RH 7.2.

Under NT it is a pig to get going with juggling raid driver disks - even though this PEdge has just a standard Perc-2Si raid controller...

With RH7.2 - no problems, 30 mins after starting I had a fully working linux box, 60 mins later a fully working PDC, DNS etc - normally with NT its the best part of a day getting the OS and all patches etc installed and working together (and then put exchange on and watch the whole thing vanish into a big pile of junk).

Wonder whether Dell might reconsider and agree to provide linux on their servers given MS is such a pig to work with.

good thing the use this in court (1)

koekepeer (197127) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185975)

see subject. let me state the obvious here: it's good that the discussion includes more than the bundled software issues.

one of the main reason microsoft can practice their "embrace & extend" strategy, is the widespread use of windows. one way of restoring fair competition is to punish ms for punishing resellers when they don't include windows with a new pc.

Thank god MS is not an argicultural company. (3, Interesting)

IroygbivU (534043) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185976)

"It will have a devastating impact on Microsoft. It will have a devastating impact on the PC ecosystem and particularly consumers," Webb said.

An 'ecosystem' implies biodiversity. The world operating system market is verging on monoculture. If anybody is the *weed* in this technological ecosystem, it would definately be Microsoft Windows. I say - bring on the devastation!

others besides Dell (2, Interesting)

unsinged int (561600) | more than 12 years ago | (#3185980)

I realize Dell has pretty huge exposure in the PC industry, so whatever they do people pay most attention to, but the fact is other companies have started offering Linux pre-installed on their computers. I'll cite Monarch Computer [monarchcomputer.com] as an example, from which you can get RedHat or Mandrake preinstalled as well as customize your entire order. There are several other companies like this...so stop complaining about Dell dropping Linux and start buying from other places that do offer Linux. If these companies start making enough profit off selling Linux computers, Dell and others will take notice and perhaps start offering it again.

Re:others besides Dell (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186077)

walmart.com recently began offering PCs with no OS installed. Could be a good option for those who want to install their favorite distro themselves.

DNARD (2, Interesting)

T-Punkt (90023) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186007)

Does anybody remember DEC's [compaq.com]
Digital Network Appliance Reference Design aka "shark"?

Microsoft pressured DEC to not sell it - otherwise they would drop support for NT/alpha (which they did anyway...). See here [nytimes.com] for the details.

Here is an amazing opportunity (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186010)

for an enterprising small company.

Build a low end box and preinstall Linux on it so that it fully supports all the hardware. Aim at the $400.00 market, and a complete computer. This is very important, you need to demonstrate that you are cheaper than the competition. Charge for shipping but not handling.

An Athlon 850 with 256MB of RAM, DVD Drive, 32MB nVidia video w tv out, 16 bit sound card and a 40 GB HD would be good. A network card, modem card and TV card would be nice too.

Put open office on it so that it was 99% office compatible. Hell, that's all the early IMB clones were and they did alright. Build every package from source fully optimized for the platform. Build the kernel to fully support all hardware that comes with the box.

Make it so that all anyone has to do is turn it on, fill in a few blanks, answer a few questions and they and their whole family each has a new account.

Offer game packs of all the old Loki games for $50. (Or a transgaming game pack, anything to hook the kids.)

Finally, have an update service to keep their software upto date and secure. You could also sell them TV and radio listings monthly to use to record their favorite shows. This box could be connected to a monitor and to the TV at the same time and show a DVD while someone did their homework on the monitor.

The great thing is that you will only need to spend about $20,000 setting up the first box, then you can build as many boxes as you want for just the cost of the hardware and the manpower to assemble and test each one. No more license cost. That alone will save the user $75 per box and gain the manufacturer $25 per box extra income... The $100 that would have gone to Microsoft.

If it ran Lindows, even better. Anything to ease people off their old machines, the better. Oh, and you need a utility to connect the new machine and their old machine with a serial cable, run some software on the old machine and transfer over all their old program files to be ran under Wine or Lindows.

Re:Here is an amazing opportunity - being done (4, Informative)

q-soe (466472) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186054)

www.lycoris.com

lycoris offer desktop LX preinstalled on machines for $449.95 and laptops for $799.99.

The pcs are HP and laptops IBM and they come with full tech support and OS support and warranty from manuf. the PC's are new and the laptops refurbished. The prices include shipping.

PC

Hewlett Packard PC
Intel Celeron 700 Mhz Processor
128MB RAM
10GB Hard Drive
8MB Integrated AGP Video
48x CD-ROM Drive
56k Modem or
10/100 Ethernet Card (NIC)
Keyboard
Mouse
Speakers
Desktop/LX Amethyst
1 Year Warranty from HP
Monitor Sold Separately

Laptop
IBM ThinkPad 600E
366Mhz Pentium II Processor
AGP Graphics
3.5 inch Disk Drive
10 GB Hard Drive
DVD ROM Drive
128/256 Std/Max RAM
Dual boot Desktop/LX Amethyst & Windows® 98
13.3 inch TFT Active Matrix Screen
56k voice/fax modem
5 lbs. w/ battery
Refurbished with 3 Months Limited Warranty from IBM

And im sure there are more out there.

PS on the Dell side i buy nothing but dell and i have never ever seen the linux links except on server products, the fact is that MS may have stopped them from doing or they may have not but from what i have seen Dell didnt exactly try hard in the first place and i suspect it was only ever an option to make them seem like they cared about choice. Dell have always been microsofts number one fan.

Oh and this may be offtopic but on lindows im sorry but i personally believe its vapour ware and will believe it when i see it - a company charging $99 for Beta testers to get it is not a good sign and i have yet to come across anyone who has ever used it. Until i see it i wont believe it -for now its a pretty web site and 2 screenshots that could easily be forged. Micheal Robinson marketed MP3's before and now hes marketing linux and so far all i have seen is a lawsuit he knew would be the result of the naming and one i personally believe he went looking for.

But more power to companies who ship linux preinstalled, i run lycoris and for a desktop OS its very very good.

Who's punishing Microsoft? (5, Insightful)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186018)

...I read this part of the article and couldn't help but wonder...If it's not the Feds, and it's not the dissenting states...who then, Superman?

"The plaintiffs
are not here to punish Microsoft," Sullivan said. "The plaintiffs' goals are to make Microsoft behave properly."

The "remedy" phase of an anti-trust case is like the "penalty" phase of other criminal trials: It's when the punishment is meted out.

So why aren't the plaintiffs seeking punishment? They should be there to punish Microsoft. Their goal is to solve the problem and prevent future violations of the law. If they aren't truly seeking punishment, then it strikes me the states might be hedging their bets: Waiting to see if the judge will enforce a harsh remedy (and face the wrath of the Bush administration and the Ashcroft goon squad.) If the judge won't do that, they'll be able to easily sell out for a cheap "PR Win" against MS where they settle and the majority of people who don't know enough about computers to care will say "Good, they took care of that Microsoft thing. Now I can go back to the net without worrying my porn will be cut off."

It's also laughable to me that MS' lawyers can argue, with a straight face, that evidence of on-going criminal conduct is somehow "irrelevant" to the penalty phase of their trial. I do my best to avoid situational logic, so the best way to decide if this isn't a completely bullshit argument is to replace Microsoft with Lenny the Mobster.

If Lenny the Mobster is charged with operating a sports book, and while out on bail on these charges (which he has since been convicted of,) he set up a NEW sports book, that would certainly seem like relevant evidence to me in considering whether the defendant had any intention of obeying the law in the future, and whether a stronger sentence might be needed to reform him.

Microsoft should not get special treatment. Microsoft has broken the law. Multiple times. They have been convicted multiple times, despite doing everything they could to worm out of responsibility including:

1) Lying (IE couldn't possibbly be unbundled)
2) Buying off the Bush administration
3) Buying off much of Congress

If it was Lenny the Mobster charged with murder, racketeering, or anything else, they could (and have, in the past) use everything including the kitchen sink against him. Why does Microsoft deserve preferential treatment?

MS is like a child, defiant to the last that it deserves no punishment. That's basically the argument they're presenting in court: They don't want to make the changes proposed by the dissenting states because those changes would end most of their monopolies in 6-18 months. MS seems to be arguing that there should be a lesser punishment simply because they say so.

When this all works itself out, and MS is over (or sold, divested, whatever) there will be a collective hangover. Things will be weird for a few months, but ultimately more healthy.

Think of it like ending a relationship with a crazy girl: Yeah, you lose great sex for a little while (millions of video games) but you also get all the heartache and bullshit of dating a crazy girl (autoexecution of VBScripts in emails, gaping web-server security flaws)...

Yeah, it hurts at first, but ultimately you're a better, stronger person with (hopefully) an open, easy to use OS with lots of games, groovy programming environments, and other fun multimedia content the likes of which hasn't even been invented yet.

In other words, the rich pageant of computing that's been prommised for the last decade, but never delivered by Microsoft.

Re:Who's punishing Microsoft? (2)

gilroy (155262) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186069)

Blockquoth the poster:

The "remedy" phase of an anti-trust case is like the "penalty" phase of other criminal trials: It's when the punishment is meted out.

Unfortunately, in anti-trust law, there is this (IMHO absolutely insane) doctrine, that the purpose of the law is purely remedial and not at all punitive. That is, you can only use anti-trust law to "correct" for the anticompetitive behavior of a company. You can't actually punish the company.


I don't know why corporations are entitled to this wonderful exemption whereas your ordinary criminal is not, but apparently it's backed up by a hundred years of court decisions.

laptops pre-installed with NTFS (2, Informative)

oever (233119) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186019)

'Citing internal Microsoft memos, the nine states also said that in 2000 and 2001 Microsoft pressured Dell Computer Corp. into dropping plans to offer the open-source Linux operating system on some machines it sells.'

On a related, dual-boot note: many laptop vendors install Windows XP with the NTFS filesystem taking all of the hard-drive. These laptops only have a restore-CD to put XP back and usually have only 1 restore option: XP for the entire drive. I'm sure Microsoft 'encourages' vendors to not distribute real XP install CD's with computers. This is a very nasty way of discouraging people from trying an alternative.

A friend of mine recently bougth a Compaq Presario 1714AE and wanted to be able to dual boot and get to know linux. I did the install for her, starting with erasing the entire disk figuring I could restore XP on a smaller partition. I turned out the restore CD had only 1.5 MB of data on it. All the real restore data was on the second partition of the same hard-disk! (which I'd erased)

So there was only on thing to do: intall only linux. Compaq does send a real restore-CD if you call their expensive support-line. The CD took four weeks to arrive and when it did, using it erased the entire harddisk again. There was no way to install XP from these CD's alongside linux. Absolutely no way. I spent an entire day trying many tricks. Even Partition Magic 7 could not shrinkt the NTFS partition on this machine.

The good thing is that my friend is very happy with SuSE, which she preferred over XP. And she is no computer expert at all. She only has a problem with running CD-ROMs. DVD's work very well (after tweaking).

She has now called Compaq again and demanded the real XP install CD's which she paid for. Compaq is clearly trying to delay things, unfortunately.

Not much of a problem from my eyes... (0)

Thaidog (235587) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186020)

We all know that Linux users know everything anyway, and thus need no support...

Dell in the UK (2, Informative)

SoundGuy666 (467270) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186026)

Dell are still offering RH linux on workstations to UK buyers - maybe desktops too, I don't look that low down the £££ end ;)

However, we do always of course rebuild it ourselves with a sensible partitioning scheme and our deparment's specced build.

I think we have a discount with them if we buy our machines with linux instead of windows - £25 or something. Oh, and another £5 for going for a logitech 3-button mouse instead of the microsoft wheely one.

One of the main benefits of having linux offered is that you can be pretty certain that all the hardware works under the latest RH release kernel. Which is reassuring, especially with some of Dell's wierd hardware.

The answer is "Blowing in the wind" (1)

joeler (45203) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186029)

How many times must it happen before people demand it is stopped....

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest (2)

hoggy (10971) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186031)

Dell probably had very poor sales for Linux in the desktop segment. The people who buy these machines aren't the sort of people who would buy Linux - not because Linux isn't "ready for the desktop", but because they wouldn't know if it was.

Until you see Red Hat adverts featuring people flying through the air over green fields extolling the virtues of Linux for home users, you're not going to see much in the way of uptake.

The few people who do buy desktop boxen for running Linux are probably the kind of tech savvy people who already have Red Hat Linux CDs in the desk drawer and probably wouldn't want the default Dell install anyway.

Re:Doesn't surprise me in the slightest (3, Interesting)

weave (48069) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186081)

Dell never made it easy to find how to buy a computer with linux preloaded. Right now, for example, you pretty much have to know to go to www.dell.com/linux first.

The way it *should* have been done was to put Linux into the OS choice drop down list with something like * Red Hat Linux (-$100).

Even now, if you go configure a Precision 340 workstation, you can't do this. You have to go to a start page like www.dell.com/linux and choose from the initial menu you want Linux. I have never seen a order page that gives a choice between Linux and Windows on the configuration screen. I'd love for someone to show me a URL to prove me wrong...

Business opp (1)

KrunZ (247479) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186035)

Why haven't anybody not grapped the business opp to deliver tailor-made linux-distributions to the topselling DELL computers? DELL is actually offering you a pot of gold.

Ok who is he? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186036)

Ok, I have read so much about this Linux guy. Who is he? Does he think he can he afford the lawyers Gates can?

Linux does good on Dell machines (2, Interesting)

ciryon (218518) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186038)

We only have Dell machines here at work and of course I've installed Linux on mine. I use it as a desktop workstation and as a database/http server. It has performed very good. No downtime since last summer (except when we had to cut the power globally).

As a matter of fact I think Dell is a really good choice for running Linux (if you must go for a brand computer). I have also tried installing Linux on some Compaq machines. Many many hardware related problems. Stay away from those Compaq machines! That's a warning.

Ciryon

Computer without OS (2, Insightful)

Bloody Bastard (562228) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186041)

I think we should have at least the choice of buying computer hardware WITHOUT any OS. M$ will complain about piracy, but now everybody know (I hope) there are other choices which don't imply in copying commercial SW (like FreeBSD and GNU/Linux).

AMD (1)

daserver (524964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186049)

Please note that you cannot buy a Dell machine with an AMD processor inside (TM). Funny isn't it?

Obtaining-Dell-Support-HOWTO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3186052)

****
Joe User: Hello Sir.
Dell Salesman: Hello, may I help you?
Joe User: Yup! I wanted a Dell computer with Linux installed on.
Dell Salesman: I'm sorry, but we dropped all Linux support months ago.
Joe User: Oh, rats! Well then I'll buy another brand.
****

Do the above for all Dell resellers in your city, then move to another city and repeat.

Punishment (1)

Cally (10873) | more than 12 years ago | (#3186087)

OK, I'm British and I'm not really familiar with the US legal system; BUT...:


The plaintiffs are not here to punish Microsoft," Sullivan said. "The plaintiffs' goals are to make Microsoft behave properly."


No punishment? Is he just saying the STATES aren't there to do the punishing, that's the judge's job? You do have a system of punitive damages, right? And if your conduct is especially insidious, and you're a large, well-known organisation which is looked up to by many, and treated as a role model by other companies, you impose - I can't recall the legal jargon, help me out someone - 'exemplary" damages, right? That is, Microsoft should receive a far HARSHER penalty than some small firm that tried the same things, because Microsoft have more public visibility? That's (roughly) the way it works over here (well, in the UK anyway: dunno about the EU systems, which, yes, we are part of...)

Anyway I sure as hell want to see punitive damages imposed on Microsoft. Whether or not that happens in the US, I'm pretty sure the EU is going to fine them several billion dollars. And not a penny too much. They should be fined the equivalent of the profits they made from their illegal activities over the last decade.
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