Suing Sony for Everquest Related Suicide? 967
daoine writes "The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has a story about how Sony could be sued by the mother of an Everquest player who recently committed suicide. The lawsuit itself doesn't seem all that interesting (she's aiming for warning labels) -- but it is interesting that Sony won't release any of the game data citing privacy policy, even if it could help unlock what exactly drove the guy to end his life."
He was Nerfed (Score:2, Funny)
Re:He was Nerfed (Score:5, Funny)
Its possible.
He was the problem NOT the game (Score:5, Insightful)
I know this guy was an adult (age 21), but still this case reeks of every case from Columbine to the next one we will read about - lack of any sort of intervention by parential figures. People, get a clue, if you don't have involement in your siblings lives, regardless of age, you are doing more damage than any game can ever do.
RonB
IF they win this suit. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:IF they win this suit. (Score:3, Insightful)
If it wasn't Everquest, then something else would have bothered this person to the extent that he would kill himself. I am sorry, but this is not Everquest's fault! Even though the guy was 21, where was the mother during all this time he was playing? If she really cared, she would have been calling him, visiting him, and encouraging him to go outside, and at the bare minimum to get a life otuside of Everquest!!!
Even worse, "he was epileptic, and the game would cause seizures", and she didn't make moves to get him to stop? Granted he was 21, but shouldn't she had done something other than trying to instutionalize him? How much did she talk to him? Whatever happened to talking to people?
Let's say she does get the information she is seeking about what drove the guy over the edge in the game (but I hope she doesn't), what will she do next? Will she sue the people involved for some type of criminal intent? I am sick and tried of stupid lawsuits.
Give me a break (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Give me a break (Score:5, Insightful)
"This game may simulate social contact with other human beings, if you are in any way mentally unstable please do not engage in such social contacts as it my be hazardous to your mental health."
Of course... then they would have to put one of those on LIFE...
Kintanon
Re:Give me a break (Score:4, Insightful)
But as a guy who plays Everquest, and seen folks like this guy who play for 36 hours straight I think a warning label is not too much to ask for.
Some people really do wreck their lives by playing too much everquest, same as they wreck their lives with drugs. Most play responsibly, but those who don't bring out stories like this.
A warning on the box is a good idea IMO.
Re:Give me a break (Score:3, Interesting)
I've seen plenty of warnings like that. I've also seen warnings on video boxes "This film contains hard-core pumping action. Don't watch if easily offended."
Neither was a warning; both were marketing strategies. Both were seen as such by, oh, everyone. Any warning that didn't contain text like "seriously. someone died. Don't let it happen to you" is never going to be taken seriously.
Understand, please, that I'm not against labels for such reasons. They're a terrible idea in more ways than one. But even if they weren't, they'd be impractical.
Re:Give me a break (Score:5, Insightful)
You have a point, but keep in mind how these games work.
How do you get addicted to these games? The creatures? The plot? The gameplay?
No.
Its the community. If you are a social outcast, this game is your out. It is a place YOU are accepted.
Think about it. Its hard to say something "wrong" because you type it, and get to think about it a little longer than talking.
Mom sees this as her son being happy. He doesn't interact well in social situations, but at least the game helped him out in being happy.
He kills himself.
OK, now if your son died in a social event, you'd want to know why, correct?
Well, to this kid, this was a social event. They should know why.
And IMHO, this isn't "passing the blame." It isn't about "Video Game Addiction." Its about a social outcast that found someplace were he belonged, and something happened.
This coulda happened to any kid, just normally its in a "real" social event, not a "virtual" social event.
Whats wrong with an escape? (Score:3, Insightful)
If the kid is a social outcast, blame society.
But thats still no excuse to commit suicide, I'm a social outcast, I havent killed myself.
Re:Give me a break (Score:5, Informative)
The lawyer for Woolley made a statement saying that the labels would be an *indirect* result of the suit. They *are* suing for financial damages, so significant, in fact, that (paraphrased) "Sony will have to put warning labels on its games as a matter of fiduciary responsibility."
sigh... (Score:4, Funny)
Lawyer: Hey - does anyone have the old AD&D suicide brief? cool, thanks.
s/AD&D/Everquest/
s/TSR/Sony/
there, done.
D and D may actually SAVE lives... (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, the D & D suicide attacks are specious, and we know it. Lawyers fight for their clients, not for the truth.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm [religioustolerance.org]
Michael Stackpole calculated expected suicide rates by gamers during the early years of Dungeons and Dragons. He used B.A.D.D.'s estimate of 4 million gamers worldwide. Assuming that fantasy role game playing had no effect on youth suicide rate, one would have expected about 500 gamers would have committed suicide each year. As of 1987, B.A.D.D. had documented an average of 7 per year. It would appear that playing D & D could be promoted as a public health measure, because it would seem to drastically lower the suicide rate among youth.
Emphasis mine.
A social game means you're dealing with people. Sometimes that means you despair over a bad relationship, but despairing over loneliness is a far greater risk.
Warning Label (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Warning Label (Score:4, Funny)
"Don't play this game if you're crazy"
Warning Proposal after the marketing guys see it:
"This game is so cool, it just might kill you! You have been warned!"
Re:Warning Label (Score:3, Funny)
I knew there was a solution!!!!
Riiiiiiiiight....it was the game.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Couldn't have been that he was a schizoid depressive maniac who didn't have any friends. Must be the game.
(Leaves comparisons to Black Sabbath and D&D to other posters....)
Re:Riiiiiiiiight....it was the game.... (Score:3, Interesting)
You're just mad because you don't have any mentally ill relatives who are likely make you rich off of a rediculous^Wwell-justified lawsuit!
Video games != nicotine, people (Score:3, Insightful)
For the love of Pete, people. Cigarettes are addictive because of nicotene, which is a chemical agent that acts on the brain. Warning labels go on cigarettes because the smoke causes long-term damage to one's lungs, and more. Lawsuits are being levied against the tobacco industry because they've been knowingly increasing the levels of nicotine in their products to increase addiction, marketing to children who may not be aware of the dangers of the product, and have for years denied any knowledge of the dangers their products cause.
None of these arguments apply to video games.
It's a virtual world, people. The problems here are as old as IRC, BBSes and even Ms. Pac-Man arcade machines. Heck, gamblers have for centuries had the same problems. If it's fun, people can and do get addicted. But that's not Sony's fault, nor is it (to be bluntly honest) their problem.
Sony is NOT deliberately manipulating their games or online worlds to make people play longer. They are NOT adding subliminal messages saying "Play more EverQuest" or installing Trojan horses that log you on when you're trying to do productive work. They don't offer any incentive to play, other than virtual money and level powers. The fact that people sell high-powered characters on eBay for real money is something Sony has even tried to prevent in court themselves.
They know the game is popular, but there is no way a sane person can argue they are KNOWINGLY addicting people to this thing.
Elizabeth Woolley of Osceola: I hate to say it, but the game had nothing to do with your son's suicide. The suicide and his addiction to the game doubtless had the same cause -- "A psychologist diagnosed him with depression and schizoid personality disorder," according to the article -- but you cannot hold Sony responsible for keeping him from playing as often as he liked.
The game is popular, it is fun, but it's not designed to be addictive any more than any other video, board, or card game. With all due respect to your tragedy, you're looking for blame in exactly the wrong place.
Re:Video games != nicotine, people (Score:4, Interesting)
Many non-chemical things can be addictive. EQ is one of them. It gave this kid pleasures he couldn't get elsewhere, that he knew of at least. If not, why would he play it? Why would anyone?
People are addicted to EQ. And TV. And food. And sex. And cannabis. The mechanism is pretty much the same, you don't need a chemical that is physically addictive like nicotine to have a psychological addiction to it. With physically addictive substances like nicotine, there is more interplay between the psychological and physical components, but it's very easy to become psychologically addicted to something that produces pleasure. Have a look at some B.F. Skinner papers, or talk to someone who actually studies science- any sane person could tell you that being addicted to a game is very possible, and this kid probably was addicted to it.
However, unless Sony did something to trick him into playing it for that initial month (which I find almost impossible), they're not to blame. He is. It's his body, his mind, his life, and if he choose to try to live in the EQ world, that's his own deal. Wasn't harming anyone. If anything, the psychiatrist and mother would be partially to blame, for recognizing that this kid had a problem with the game, and many other psychological problems, and should've intervened. But it's too late for that.
Sony isn't to blame, but cigarette companies aren't to blame when kids on their own decide to start smoking, provided a kid would do that in an environment without all the cig adverts. They'd still do it, some of them. And they'd still die of lung cancer. And they'd still uphold the American Way (tm) and try to blame someone else for their problems.
This mother's action to sue Sony isn't about retribution, or even money so much. It's about her shifting the blame from herself to Sony. Internally, she knows she is partially to blame for her son's suicide. She doesn't admit it to others, but she feels it. She feels that if she "prove" that Sony is really to blame, that those feelings will stop plaguing her, and the blame will rest on Sony's shoulders, not her own.
Re:Video games != nicotine, people (Score:3, Insightful)
That depends on your point of view, you, the original poster, and I probbably all agree on what would be appropriate ways to encurage people to play. The dead guy's mother, and her lawyer likely do not.
Lots of people would be upset about that. Hoever there is a more grey area. Is the part of the game where you have to "hide" or find a safe spot before you leave the game (or risk having your stuff looted) "something" to MAKE prople play longer? Or is it just a way to make sure you can't just hang up if you are in a tight spot and escape unharmed?
Oh, I pretty much beleve that...but does the (as yet unselected) jury? Or are we in fact both wrong and EQ's design team really overstep the bounds of fairness (I really doubt that)?
Probably won't be the only one ... (Score:5, Funny)
A psychologist diagnosed him with depression and schizoid personality disorder, symptoms of which include a lack of desire for social relationships, little or no sex drive and a limited range of emotions in social settings.
Sounds like most Slashdot readers are in danger,
Re:Probably won't be the only one ... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh Goodie! (Score:5, Funny)
If your life is Everquest... (Score:2)
Who are you to decide how people should live? (Score:4, Insightful)
I could easily say, going to work everyday and posting on slashdot is a waste of life, I could say the only way to enjoy life is to go to raves and parties every night.
Who am I tell other people how to spend their lives?
Its people like you, constantly telling this weak minded person that their lifes a waste, that most likely caused this guy to commit suicide in the first place.
Imagine everyone telling you how you are wasting your life because you refuse to live like they do,
lets see, doctors, teachers, people like you, your own mother, a weak minded person can easily be influenced by other people and might commit suicide.
My advice to you, never tell anyone their life is a waste.
Two things... (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, she'll appeal and appeal until Sony caves in and settles.
"The manufacturer of EverQuest purposely made it in such a way that it is more intriguing to the addict,"
Well, *duh*. Entertainment is supposed to be enjoyable...And *newsflash!* Enjoyable things are addictive! Like sports...taking walks...shopping...sex! If it wasn't, then we as humans wouldn't seek it out so often, and it wouldn't enrich our lives - We'd turn into very dull people.
Not only that, but it's in Verant/Sony's financial interests to make the game enjoyable and addictive. Since it's on a subscription-based model, they need people to *want* to continue to play, so that THEY can to continue to make money.
*FWAP* - The sound of 1,000,000 Slashdot readers simultaneously slapping their foreheads in disgust...
Re:Two things... (Score:4, Insightful)
The real story is only partly that some kid loved an online virtual world so much that he no longer wanted to experience the real world.
The REAL STORY that I see here is that the particular online virtual world this kid got lost in was EVERQUEST! I mean, I'm not trying to say it's a bad game--it sounds like a lot of fun. But all it's just chatting with your friends while you kill monsters repetitively for hours on end with crappy graphics. Granted, there isn't too much better competition right now...that's why I don't knock anyone who plays it.
What frightens me is that these online worlds are only going to become vastly more compelling, interesting, and addictive in the future. The Sims Online and A Tale in the Desert come to mind in the short term. Decades from now, the Real World is going to be a really sad, boring, complicated in all the wrong ways place compared to the virtual world.
Which means that more and more people are going to cut themselves off from the real world. At least until they run out paychecks or something. Then they'll kill themselves for being trapped in horrible, horrible reality.
Then again, maybe in the future you can just get a software development job in virtual reality ... maybe if interactive worlds aren't as simple and repetitive as everquest and it's kind are, people like this Shawn kid will actually become MORE healthy and mature, rather than more socially fearful and inept and depressed.
Re:Two things... (Score:3, Interesting)
Entertainment is not supposed to be addictive.
Psychological addiction is a personality thing, and ANYTHING can be `addictive' psychologically: Reading books, running, swimming, gambling, watching TV, watching soap operas or Jenny Jones. Of course we come to the point of defining what "addiction" is, and contrary to many people's opinions: Addiction is not that someone spends more time doing an activity than you would enjoy -> Your opinion of the enjoyment of something is not relevant to someone else's enjoyment. Addiction is also not when someone spends so much time doing something that they neglect the things that you feel are important : i.e. Maybe they don't WANT to work 60 hours a week, or get an MBA, or read the combined works of Chaucer. Maybe they don't like going to the bar on Friday nights, and maybe they actually enjoy the social atmosphere of an online game. Hell, it is fair to say that someone might be living the dream life working at Burger King, playing EQ all night : If they're happy and that's their goal, then that's fantastic, and that's more than can be said about many people who live very productive lives, miserably slogging along until the day they die.
Instead, addiction (at least to the generally mentally healthy) is personally defined: If someone spends so much time at something that they feel personal shame about letting other things slide, and this turns into a cycle of shame and procrastination, then that can be called addiction. At some point all of us have gotten into this "funk", and it's just a part of life.
I guess my point is this: I see all the "this guy had no life" comments and that disturbs me: This guy probably had a more active social life than 90% of the people out there who spend their lives in a stupor watching TV, but as I mentioned: It's not my position to judge them. Growing up my favourite hobby was computers, and it astounded me how often people would give me their opinion of how wrong it was to spend hours in front of the computer, but rather I should be doing more socially accepted time suckage wasters like watching football or the latest episode of the Cosby Show. The sad thing is how many people buy into this "life is conformity" mentality.
Anyone ever hear of uninstall? (Score:2, Insightful)
Seizures? (Score:2, Insightful)
OK, her son got seizures from the game and she's suing to have warning labels on the game because her son killed himself? His suicide was probably seizure related. (IANAD, so that may not be possible)
Oh, and good for Sony for standing behind their privacy policy.
Re:Seizures? (Score:2)
Big choice (Score:2, Insightful)
Obviously this guy wasn't a normal Everquest player, and there should be a lot of evidence for why he suicided sitting around in the ordinary world. I don't see any need to violate a privacy policy, which IMO should be inviolate.
I hate that game with every inch of my body... (Score:2, Interesting)
I mean, geez, have you seen an Everquest player around your local dorm/apartment lately? Some of those mofos are pretty scary.
it'll get dismissed... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:it'll get dismissed... (Score:4, Informative)
Well you must have read at least part of the article to get some of these facts. Unfortunatly you got it pretty mixed up and are talking about cases involving several different players instead of the one in question.
The mother wants some information regarding her sons suicide. Had the guy gone to a night club and come home and killed himself then the mother could go to the night club and try to find people he was with to try to find out why he did it. In this case she can't talk to anyone because Sony is being very uncooperative. Her only recourse is to sue Sony which will do several things. Directly it might get them to put some warning labels on the box and it will get some publicity. Indirectly, the news of the lawsuit may reach guildmates or acquaintences of the deceased in game who may choose for themselves to contact the mother and offer her some condolences so she can get the closure she needs.
Sony is more than capable of putting out a message of the day, MOTD, to notify friends of this player to visit a site where they can choose for themselves if they want to talk to this guys mother. Instead Sony always blurts out this boilerplate response about privacy of its players and that is the end of the matter to them. They clearly have a responsibility here, in this case a moral one, to offer some form of condolence to this guys mother. They can at least let people in game know about the death and let the players choose if they want to do the write thing.
When I played I had a guildmate get severly injured in a car accident. He was in a coma and almost died. It was months before we all found out about it and when we did we all sent messages to our fallen friend. Someone in the guild went as far as hand delivering screenshots and get well postings to him in the hospital which he appreciated very much. The point is, there are some people who play the game who do care. If this guy had friends in the game they might know of some of the problems he was having and that could help his mother recover from her loss.
I think in the end the mother will hear what she needs to but not with Sony's help. The publicity and will prompt a few players will come through to help her.
Re:it'll get dismissed... (Score:3, Insightful)
If they do, she'll find some online slight that TECHNICALLY could have been prevented (if Sony had assigned an administrator to watch over this kid 24/7 and intervene), and use that as the basis of another lawsuit against Sony for "not preventing my son's death".
Hopefully she'll advance in her grief to the point where she can give her lawyer an embarrassed phone call and put a stop to this lashing out.
For now, though, she's in denial over the fact that if her kid was screwed up psychologically enough to off himself, the odds are it had less to do with the game company with which he spent 1/2 his time for the last couple of years, and more to do with the parents with whom he spent 2/3 of his time for his entire life...
Re:it'll get dismissed... (Score:3, Insightful)
In reality, she simply wants to desperatly blame something else, ANYTHING else, on why his life played out the way it did.
Besides, think about it really hard. She hasnt filed any sort of legal documents requesting this information. Would you be very comfortable if I could call Sony, tell them you died, and have them fork over all sorts of personal information?
If she is doing what she claims, then she's going about it the wrong way..
Other issues then just EQ (Score:2)
Seriously, his mother really has no merit on trying to blame a game on someones own mental problems and suicide. If she cared that much, the she should have seen that he had problems already and tried to get him help.
This is like people sueing McDonalds because the coffee is hot...
it amazes me (Score:2, Insightful)
Tell this idiot mother to look for other problems her son might had instead of trying to get some money from Sony!
In the Journtinal? (Score:2)
Maybe it's a sign that I should get out more..
Nah, I'm not overweight, I have 3 kids, so the sex drive is ok.. I have a nice house at the base of a mountain, 4 horses, a miner who's up to level 50 now..
and a warning label woulda stopped it? (Score:2)
Besides.. the dude probably got Britished [oldmanmurray.com]
A message for mom... (Score:2, Insightful)
Addiction is a personality type. (Score:2)
Sure, there are things like narcotics that form physical dependancies, but by FAR the majority of addictions are psychological. ANYTHING can become addictive if the right person is exposed to it. Are we going to put warning labels on carrots? on AOL CDs? (I know there's some nutjob out there that collects them) Where does it end?
Labels on products aren't going to help if the public isn't educated on the issues of addition in general.
There's a good reason for this: (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony (rightly) believes that giving this case the time of day is in a way admitting possibility of fault. The simple fact is that people commit suicide over a lot of things. If someone reads a book and it depresses them to the point that they kill themselves, it's not the fault of the author. Likewise, while it's very sad that this person killed himself, it's in absolutely no way Sony's fault.
Sony (again, rightly) believes that their game data is irrelevant to the case. What would be a lot more telling is an analysis of any possible psychological problems the boy had that led to his suicide.
Lendrick
Re:There's a good reason for this: (Score:4, Funny)
And we know that thousands of people have already committed suicide because their Slashdot submissions are rejected or their comments are moderated down to (Score:-1, Troll). But we know CmdrTaco just laughs because it's not his fault.
:-)
This isn't addiction... (Score:5, Insightful)
... it's compulsive behavior. Almost anything can be compulsive. Picking your nose, eating your hair, sucking your thumb, washing your hands fifty times a day, sex - they can all be compulsive, but they're not addictive.
To compare video games to things that are really addictive like smoking or crack is silly. Worse than that, it gives you an excuse not to deal with your compulsion properly. It's way to easy to say "oh, I can't quit - I'm addicted". Nonsense. Go on vacation somewhere where you have better things to do than EverQuest and you'll find your "addiction" wasn't nearly as strong as you'd thought.
As for this poor guy who committed suicide, that's sad. But he obviously had deeper problems. If EverQuest hadn't existed he would have latched on to some other way of escaping from his real life.
You forgot (Score:4, Funny)
Clicking Refresh on April Fools hoping for real news.
Not Surprising... (Score:2)
People sued authors for making stores that their kids read and commited suicide.
The key I believe is that there is no link between listening to the band and the mental state of a suicidal person. Same thing with books and people. Same thing with EQ and this player. I believe it is as simple as that. If it wasn't EQ it would have been something else. But I guess the short sighted solution would be to sue them instead.
Instead of looking for why EQ set this person on the path of self destruction the parents may want to look at why they didn't see it coming. I am under the impression suicidal behavior has many indicators that shouldn't be ignored. So why didn't they recognize something is wrong? Sure they may have not been licensed or studied anything about sucide but ignoring abnormal and extremely weird behavior is irresponsible.
And, here is the kicker folks, not the band, the author's, or EQ's fault.
Misunderstanding mental illness.... (Score:4, Interesting)
even if it could help unlock what exactly drove the guy to end his life.
I Am Not A Psychiatrist, but....
Overwhelmingly suicide is the result of mental illness and/or substance use. (More than half of all suicides in the US are alchohol related). Think about it, if a guy has a heart attack while shovling snow off the driveway, learning more about the snow crystals doesn't tell you about his heart attack. He had heart disease, and the exertion of shoveling caused one of several bad things to happen inside is heart. Mental illness is a disease state - suicidiality is a symptom of the disease.
One might want engage in a bunch of Freudian analysis of this guy's game play, but, odds are, the levels of seritonin activity in his brain were out of whack. Did Everquest create stress in this guy's life that incresed the intensity of his suicidiality? (this would be the 'shoveling' int the heart attack metaphor) - maybe. But real life is generally a hell of a lot more stressful.
People Who Cannot Take Responsibility (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I do have a problem with this blaming of Everquest! It's not a games fault someone does this... if a game can push someone over the edge, then that person was already severely unbalanced and the trigger could have been anything. In this case it appears to have been the game...
I have more issues with the parent who waited until after he died to get involved:
He sacrificed everything so he could play for hours, ignoring his family, quitting his job and losing himself in a 3-D virtual world where more than 400,000 people worldwide adventure in a never-ending fantasy.
Should this kind of behavior not be setting off all sorts of alarm bells here? Why did it take his suicide to provoke a reaction?
"Shawn was playing 12 hours a day, and he wasn't supposed to because he was epileptic, and the game would cause seizures," she said. "Probably the last eight times he had seizures were because of stints on the computer."
Woolley knows her son had problems beyond EverQuest, and she tried to get him help by contacting a mental health program and trying to get him to live in a group home. A psychologist diagnosed him with depression and schizoid personality disorder, symptoms of which include a lack of desire for social relationships, little or no sex drive and a limited range of emotions in social settings.
I hate to say it, but this sounds like it's largely the parents fault. It doesn't sound like they did enough to prevent him playing and get him better integrated.* Why was that computer even available? If he's having seizures from playing that machine should not even be available to play on!
* - I say sounds like it. I could be wrong... a parent cannot always prevent such actions of their children. The best they can do is try.
In a related story... (Score:3, Funny)
In a related story, area cocaine and crack dealers are now affixing their product with warning labels to avoid similar lawsuits.
But seriously, has it gotten so bad that companies have to warn consumers that their product is of too high quality?
Books should have warning labels too (Score:3, Insightful)
I once read that book "The Diceman" and then did something bad, which resulted in one of my friends not speaking to me anymore. That was definately the books fault.
And didn't the guy who shot JFK read "Catcher in the Rye?". So that was the fault of a book too. And those insane terrorists were influenced by the Koran, weren't they? So books cause terrorism.
So, definately a warning label is required on books. "Warning: Reading books might make you do bad things". Something like that.
It's always something... (Score:5, Interesting)
Years ago, it was Rock 'n' Roll. Then it was Dungeons and Dragons (anyone remember the Tom Hanks movie Mazes and Monsters?) Now it's computer games. The simple fact of the matter is that certain forms of entertainment tend to appeal to certain types of people, and that for some people, it goes from entertainment to escapism to all-out addiction. Does that make gaming inherently evil? No. Does it make game manufacturers responsible for creating an environment in which people can immerse themselves?
That seems to be the point here. I would argue that Sony is no more at fault than NASCAR is for unsafe teenage driving. The vast majority of people out there can distinguish between fantasy and reality. Those who cannot have serious mental problems and require serious care and support. Unfortunately, in the United States the infrastructure for dealing with mental health issues varies greatly from state to state, and a lot of places are not equipped to handle people with social and behavioral disorders. Sony is no more at fault for creating an online multiplayer universe than Ford is for building a car that can go fast. Unfortunately, Sony is an easy target here. The real solution, however, is not to go after symptom, but rather the actual disease. I feel confident in saying that if not Everquest, something else would have taken its place. The only real solution is proper identification and treatment of social disorders, an area still vastly underdeveloped and carrying too much of a stigma to be effective.
Re:It's always something... (Score:4, Insightful)
Statistical analysis of this have always shown that people who play D&D are less likely to commit suicide than the average public.
The only reason these types of games get associated is because the public image of the players has consistently been that of the outsider/geeky/skinny runt. The facts are actually quite different. You can find the results on Wizards of the Coast. I play D&D and I'm 33 years old with a wife. I enjoy playing for the same reason people like to play poker. I get a chance to be with my friends on a regular basis.
My point is, don't believe the hype.
Re:It's always something... (Score:4, Funny)
These are completely different cases. NASCAR is most definitely liable because:
A) They teach poor driving habit's by only turning the stearing wheel in one direction. All of the sudden, the teen has to make a right turn and he's very confused.
B) They encourage "sleeping at the wheel" via bordem by driving around in circles for hours on end.
C) They are encouraged by their sponsors to "crash" to make driving more exciting to watch, and to help offset the affects of B.
This is how it works with suicide (Score:5, Interesting)
The center was having none of it, politely and compassionately but firmly refusing to release any of his information. This is primarily because they don't want to expose themselves to lawsuits, which can be tremendous, if there's any shred of a sign that something could have been done - which, with 20/20 hindsight, there always is.
If our society was less litigous, things like this might be more likely, but despite the fact that we weren't looking for anyone to blame, just for understanding, and even offered to sign a promise not to sue under any circumstances, they still had to say no. My lawyer told me I can't sign away my right to sue in any legally binding fashion, even of my own free will.
It's not their fault, and I don't blame them, but there's a hole in the picture we have of his last weeks that will never be filled in. The information is out there, but we're not allowed to get it under any circumstances or at any point. The fact that the family of the victim, whose interest in that kind of information is primal, primary and undeniable, is the ONE group of people who can't get it is just a testament to how whacked we all are.
Of course, the system is that way because so many of us feel that there must be a REASON why someone commits suicide that could be traced to something blameable outside of them. There's a real risk that I could try to sue the detox center, the school where he taught, the whiskey manufacturers, the gun manufacturers, the gas station where he filled up the night before... it's just absurd. My father killed himself because he was depressed, and his alcoholism didn't help. He wasn't victimized by anybody in ways that could be reined in by legislation - and TEEN suicide is tragic and widespread, and happens for reasons we often can't begin to fathom.
Suing a game company because a suicide victim played the game before killing himself is just as absurd as anything I might have tried to do. He didn't kill himself because he played a game. However, the game company SHOULD be able to release the information to the victim's family without fearing being blamed or sued into nothingness; plenty of people play that game without killing or harming themselves or others. Unfortunatly, the state of our hyper-litigous society means lots of good people are kept in the dark about things like this by simple financial necessity, because we all look for other people to blame/sue for our misfortunes. It's madness.
Re:This is how it works with suicide (Score:4, Insightful)
First, let me say I feel for you, and your loss. I'm not trying to minimize it, I just don't understand something. Maybe you can help me.
What good does knowing "the path was that he was on" do? The person is dead; it's tragic. I understand grasping for answers, for a reason why your loved one did this, but how can we make sense out of a senseless act?
My father was mentally ill (paranoid schizophrenia), and when he died 4 months ago, I inherited his laptop computer. In an attempt to understand him, I started looking though his files, hoping to find something, anything, that would explain why he was the way he was.
Sadly, there wasn't anything. What I found was the disturbed dillusions and imagined conspiracies of a sick man. He was mentally ill, and as seen from inside, his world was distorted and twisted. There was no peace to be found, no epiphany of understanding his essential nature. Just more sadness at how his disease robbed him of his life.
I imagine it's similar for you, and for the parents of this Everquest player. You're grasping for a reason why, but there is no rational reason why someone kills themself due to depression or mental illness. Delving too deeply in that muck just brings more pain.
Re:This is how it works with suicide (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not sure it does a lot of good in the end; I think it's just a human reflex, to some degree, to look for answers in the face of something senseless. I'd say that even in the probably very rare case where there actually might be an "answer", a specific thing that can be pointed to as a "cause", it still doesn't do you much good; it certainly won't bring them back.
The question I had specifically about my father was related to his medical condition in the months before he did it; if it turned out he had advanced liver disease and a bad prognosis, maybe that would be a small comfort of sorts - it might mean he did it partly because he thought he was going to die anyway, and maybe he wasn't suffering mentally quite as much as I imagined in the time leading up to it. But, of course, it doesn't change anything, and if that was part of his thinking, he at least could have left a note or something.
It's all very yucky, certainly. Maybe my inability to get that information is just keeping me from pointlessly banging my head against the wall; maybe there are good reasons for keeping that information private. I suppose if you clear those barriers, you'll just run into different ones a little farther down the road as you try to understand something that ultimately can't be understood. The big lesson of suicide (for me anyway) seems to be that it's the ultimate selfish act, and the survivors just don't get to know the whats and whys most of the time because it's not about them.
Privacy (Score:3, Insightful)
First is the usual "we can't understand the gamer" / "games kill" stance. This isn't anything new to the Slashdot crowd, I'm sure. Heck - I've been in the middle of a lot of these things through my entire life (D&D, Arcade games, FPS Shooters, MUDs, Paintball, etc). So yea. Shake your head at in awe. Collectively yawn. Nothing new here.
Where it becomes interesting is that this is NOT a kid. This was a 21-year old adult. Living on his own. He had been diagnosed with several conditions (eplileptic, depression, schizoid personality disorder) but it doesn't appear that he was a ward of his parents or anyone else. He was his own person. His own responsibility.
Sony is right in refusing to release information on his account. This information belonged to the player alone. Unless there is a legal reason to do otherwise (ie: police investigation with appropriate warrent), Sony would be breaching their customers privacy by releasing any details.
Lies, damn lies, and ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The national rate for suicide is 1 in 10,000.
If only one person committed suicide after playing Everquest,
then Everquest players are 97% less likely to commit suicide.
I'd guess there are 30 suicides among Everquest players each year,
but the families don't think of blaming Sony for them.
-- this is not a
Maybe EQ *saved* him... (Score:5, Insightful)
...for a while, anyway.
I mean, this guy was an epileptic, schizoid, overweight, sex-deprived (what the hell is 'sexual anorexia' anyway?) manic-depressive who worked at a pizza place. His life really sucked. Who can blame him for wanting to escape into a world where he's fit, good-looking, powerful and respected? And who knows, maybe playing EQ was the only thing that kept this guy interested in living as long as he did?
He obviously needed help, and it's very sad that it ended this way. Apparently there weren't any people around who were willing to take enough of an interest to get him the help he needed, but why blame the game?
The obvious answer is that his mom knows that she should have helped him, and didn't, but doesn't want to accept it so she'd rather blame the faceless corporation that may, arguably, have brought this guy what little joy he had.
Re:Maybe EQ *saved* him... (Score:5, Funny)
A really, really thin penis, perhaps?
Re:Maybe EQ *saved* him... (Score:3, Interesting)
First, I don't see mention of this guy being manic depressive. Depression is diagnosed in people who have Major Depressive Episodes, while Manic Depression is diagnosed in people who have MDEs in addition to Manic Episodes. The combination of depressive and manic episodes is usually worse than just depressive episodes.
Second, 'schizoid' is a vague term. It suggests schizophrenia, which is absolutely debilitating. A person with schizophrenia doesn't just get addicted to Everquest, he has hallucinations that make him think he IS in Everquest.
What he did have was Schizoid Personality Disorder (or rather, that's what he was diagnosed with; personality disorders are notorious for their poor accuracy in diagnosis). It's important to note how serious this disorder is, since most people have never heard of it. Diagnosis requires four of the following:
AFAIK, personality disorders are thought to be born-in. After reading this, it should be pretty obvious that Everquest was certainly NOT the CAUSE of death here. He had plenty of other problems to worry about. The mother might argue that Everquest made his problems WORSE, but I don't know why Everquest would be any more likely to cause a person to commit suicide than, say, reading or chatting on the internet. You can 'addict' yourself to just about anything, from watching TV to playing golf to reading. Almost any commercial activity that you could get addicted to tries to draw people back for more -- I don't see why, for example, American Airlines should have a sticker next to its frequent flyer program warning about possible addiction simply because the program tempts people to keep flying with American.
This story is *so* biased. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say that I miss objective journalism, but I've become cynical: I no longer believe there ever was any.
Ellen
I survived 2 years in Norrath. (Score:4, Informative)
I personally witnessed the self destruction of more than one person while playing the game and I saw many people put trust in people who they didn't know only to lose all of their in game posessions. For those people who would spend 12 hours a day for more than a year in game only to lose it all because they thought they had a friend it is very devistating. No more different than giving someone you meet in real life the key to your apartment only to come home one day and find all your stuff gone, save a few pennies scattered on the rug.
Everquest is addicting and there is a point where you realize, at least there was for me, that you've spent nnn hours in game and have yyyy treasure. You can quit now and lose it which makes you realize that the nnn hours were all pretty much a waste or you can keep playing until you find something better to do with your time that will make you forget about the waste of nnn hours and the loss of yyyy treasure. Some people quit and come back to the game several times before quitting for good. Others will do something to get banned from the game to ensure that they will be quitting for good. I think this is where you see people getting ripped off by so called friends because the people who do this are caught and they do get banned.
I think Everquest can be a very dangerous game for some people. It is only a game but it has people interacting and bad people do play it. I definatly wouldn't let a child play it and would advise against a mentally ill person playing it as there seem to be enough of those playing already. On the other hand, I have heard great things about how some people with physical handicaps have used the game to give them a life they couldn't normally have.
I knew Shawn... (Score:5, Informative)
Did they look at his MP3 collection? (Score:4, Funny)
Wine is fine, but whiskey's quicker Suicide is slow with liquer Take a bottle, drown your sorrows Then it floods away tommorows Away tommorows
Evil thoughts and evil doings Cold, alone you hang in ruins Thought that you'd escape the reaper You can't escape the master keeper
'Cos you feel life's unreal, and you're living a lie Such a shame, who's to blame, and you're wondering why Then you ask from your cask, is there life after birth What you saw can mean hell on this earth Hell on this earth
Now you live inside a bottle The reaper's travelling at full throttle It's catching you, but you don't see The reaper's you, and the reaper is me
Breaking laws, knocking doors But there's no one at home Made your bed, rest your head But you lie there and moan Where to hide, suicide is the only way out Don't you know what it's really about
Wine is fine, but whiskey's quicker Suicide is slow with liquer Take a bottle, drown your sorrows Then it floods away tomorrows
I sympathise, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
On the matter of not divulging his private data I fully agree with Sony - I wouldn't want my mother poking around in my private stuff, even if I am dead - frankly it would be for her own good.
Online interactive games are very addictive, but there is no special design involved really, they're compelling in themselves. Single player games are too. How about this, when I get into a good book I let everything else slide.
Addiction - you die, quit or go insane. Really? Not true, certainly not when it comes to a physical addiction. Even psychological addiction, there are degrees, it is never all or nothing. And unfortunately the small minority go off the deep end one way or another; we can never save them, although it is always worth trying.
I have a problem with considering interacting over a network to be non-social. Funny how hardly anyone makes that claim about the telephone, but I recall such gripes arose when it was the new thing. You know many people suffer a great deal in direct face to face socialising, many even when using the telephone, and before the internet they would not interact with other people at all - if you haven't been there you cannot comment on what it is like. Socialising via a safer medium is far better than no socialising at all, but typically psychologists and social workers have a narrow view of the world, what is right, what is not, what is normal and what is abnormal. Most often they have no concept of their patient's world because they have never been there.
And frankly I've yet to meet a drug counsellor who was qualified to comment on anything. I'm still waiting for the day when I meet one who actually has the remotest clue about addiction.
Why I do not play... (Score:3, Interesting)
1. I realize that the real world is more importiant than a make believe virtual world. Placing more importiance in the latter will lead to destructive results in the previous, like ignoring your family, playing instead of working, not to mention poor personal hygiene. Eventually, you will have to deal with it.
2. Having a good character means having to compete with the other players in game, so that means you have to be a fanatic to have a comparable character with 80% of the other players. Then we're back at the problems induced by #1.
However, I do not attribute this to the makers of the game at all, they made the best game they could and it worked! If the player cannot control himself and play the game in moderation, then he is at fault. This lady seems to think they could have made the game less addictive, well, doesn't that imply that the game would not be as fun? Like I said, it's hard to play the game in moderation though, sort of a paradox.
Of course, I could be worng, since I've never played. But I know people who do and they spend way more time than I ever could. So I assume I could never have as good of a character.
T
Re:Why I do not play... (Score:3, Insightful)
Who knows if Norrath is real or not? unlike other games, the world that MMORPGs exist in is created in the minds of the players. It has tangible qualities. You experience it with 2 of the 5 senses - as many as you experience most of the real world with. At a certain point MMORPGs have to be given status on some level with reality because of their effect on people. This isn't a "save the children from themselves" thing, but it's a problem of world substitution. With a sufficient amount of imagination anyone can be drawn into a fantasy world.
Someone else in this story mentioned the fact that you work a lot of time to get to a level in the game and that's hard to give up. Do you program? do you write or play music or create anything? have you ever grown attached to a creation of yours or working a long time to do something that never quite seems to get done? MMORPGs dangle the carrot like that. some are immune to the temptation. Others are not.
MMORPGs ARE drugs, I'm convinced of that. I know some people that do drugs for recreational purposes and put them down when they need to be put down. I know others whose lives become controlled by the drug until they run out of their supply. This does not make them weak. They are valid human beings. It makes them susceptible and the fact that EQ and other MMORPGs take advantage of this trait is reprehensible.
Let's roll out the drug analogy again, shall we? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then Jay is a pretty ignorant chemical dependency councellor, because you can fuck yourself up in a lot fewer than 15 weeks by binge abuse of anything. The Government [ussc.gov] actually says that cocaine isn't actually that big a deal. The problem - as with any addiction - is binge abuse and the associated screwing up of your life and that of those around you. Yes kids, doing anything for 36 hours straight can fuck you up. Cocaine, alcohol, EverQuest, hacking, screwing, car mechanics, drinking water, praying.
At some point we have got to stop making arbitrary decisions to slap "good" and "bad" labels on various substances and activities. Because - with a few noticable exceptions - the problem is generally the abusive behaviour and not the substance or activity being abused.
OK, let's look at the cocaine analogy, because it keeps getting raked up. Cocaine (a non physiologically addicting substance, as used by the President of the United States) was used widely and legally for fifty years by perfectly ordinary average people, until a series of frenzied newspaper stories in the 1910's stirred up an irrational campaign to have it banned because of all the "Negro Cocaine Fiends" [neoteric.nu] running around raping white women (the police also increased the standard caliber of their guns from .32 to .38 because "The cocaine nigger sure is hard to kill," if you want to know where that scene in Alien Nation [imdb.com] came from). This, of course, does not form part of standard drug education in schools, because drugs are bad, and we can't give any context that might dilute that message, like "Drugs are bad (when abused by people with abusive personalities)".
Similarly, there is a very real danger of games going the same way. It only takes a few genuine and tragic reports of binge abuse to trigger a frenzy of supposition and speculation that leads to knee jerk legislation that will never, ever be taken off the books, because black markets and Wars on Whatever are great for incumbent governments looking for a long term unwinnable but popular crusade. Remember, circa 1900, the vast majority of the population enjoyed cocaine, in small, dilute quantities, just as now, the vast majority of the population enjoys playing games, computer or otherwise, with no ill effects. If we don't learn the lessons of the past, then in eighty years, we might be in a world where Disney games are the only legal ones and people gather in dirty back rooms to share virus ridden copies of Quake 13 in huge debilitating weekend binges. It's unthinkable? Ask anyone from 1900 about the possibility of cocaine being viewed as more dangerous than a rabid pit bull with a flick-knife, and they'd laugh in your face.
Let's have some consistency. If EverQuest really is dangerous when abused in binges by sad, desperate people with no life or hope, then let's ban it outright, because god knows that's worked in the War on Drugs, right? If not, legalise cocaine and put a warning on it to only buy approved, over the counter non-cut (virussed) versions, and not to binge abuse it, especially if you have a medical condition that makes you very succeptible (like epilepsy or schizophrenia with games).
And while we're at it, if I go on a 36 hour prayer binge and start having hallucinations, do we put a warning label on rosary beads? If not, why not? Because paranoid solipsistic visions are "good" when they feature commands from Baby Jesus, whereas the same messages coming from EverQuest Eric are "bad"? Hmmm.
Intermittant conditioning... (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen this elsewhere today, but it cannot be overstated...
Everquest uses a randomized rewards system, meaning that you do not consistently get responses for repeating the same behaviour. If you kill a monster you may get experience, but not always. This is intermittant reinforcement which is a highly effective method of conditioning behavior. And, like advertising*, it works works very well whether you believe it is affecting you or not. Just repeat, over and over, stimulus-response, stimulus-response... there is a reason for the nickname Evercrack!
* If you don't believe that you are affected by advertising, spend a few days working at a direct marketing company or ad agency... it is very scary how effective ad 'tricks' can be on any audience. The only advertising question what is the right stimulus for the audience.
Ah yes, the good ol' U.S.! (Score:5, Insightful)
If people can't take care of themselves then let the government do it. If someone dies (because he/she shouldn't have been doing it in the first place) then blame the manufacturer!
Like the case where a moron used his lawn mower to trim his bushes and lost some fingers or arms. He sued the maker of the lawn mower (and won) because the company didn't put a warning label on the mower telling him not to do that.
As the mother says in the article: "Shawn was playing 12 hours a day, and he wasn't supposed to because he was epileptic, and the game would cause seizures," she said. "Probably the last eight times he had seizures were because of stints on the computer."
If he wasn't supposed to be playing then why did you let him play you stupid bitch? (man that frustrates me!) Who was going to make him stop playing the game? The police? FBI? Sony? Guess what, lady. YOU were the only one that knew about his condition. YOU were the one that let him keep playing (even after you knew that he was playing 12 and 36 hours in a row). YOU were the one who neglected to do anything about his game playing. The fault is yours, not Sony's.
Wake up and smell the fucking coffee!
Hmm...really? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm an epileptic. Have been all my life. I've had my brain picked constantly from the age of two by neurosurgeons and neurologists from far and wide. I've had a segment of my left temporal lobe excised in a failed attempt to remove scarring causative of epilepsy. I think I've read everything there is to read on epilepsy, and I simply do not know how a game can cause it. Certainly, photo-sensitive epilepsy (i.e., the variety of epilepsy in which light can provoke seizures) can be provoked by viewing of a monitor, especially at a lower refresh rate. The same goes for flourescent lighting. But I've never known a photo-sensitive epileptic who could not come up with any solution to the monitor problem. And "the game" isn't provoking the seizure in that case anyway. If that were the case, the mother should be suing her monitor manufacturer, or perhaps just giving herself a whack in the head for letting her unprecedentedly and dubiously photo-sensitive son use a screen of any sort. Sleep deprivation can often increase the frequency of seizures - it was in fact subtly recommended to me by a neurologist when I was once under observation for two weeks, waiting for a seizure to occur so that the neurologists might observe it that sleep deprivation might speed up the process - and MMORPGs can deprive one of sleep, but that doesn't precisely constitute "the game" causing seizures, either, anymore than ill-health due to sleep deprivation constitutes Everquest causing the common cold. Frankly, I think the mother is just looking for pity, here. And she's making specious arguments about her son's serious medical condition in order to further her profit-seeking. You don't have to be any sort of medical professional to conclude that Everquest doesn't "cause", in any precise sense, seizures.
It Runs in the Family (Score:3, Insightful)
Get off it
What is the point? (Score:3, Interesting)
Read between the lines and you'll see that it's nothing more than a cash grab based upon the circumstances surrounding the person's suicide.
It raises one interesting question. If the person in question was diagnosed as having severe psychological conditions, why wasn't his activity being monitored more carefully?
Hypothetically speaking, if a person loves to play with butter knives, should the manufacturer [of said knives] be sued because there was no warning label stating "Sharp object. May kill." on it?
While I can sympathize with the mother, I don't think that she has any just reason for pursuing this issue.
Everquest *is* addictive (Score:4, Insightful)
Second, Everquest is addictive. Not chemically addictive, but neither is marijuana, which is the perfect comparison.
Smoking pot makes you not really care about the world. You smoke a bowl and just sit around doing anything. No sense of "I should be doing something productive" or "hmm...sitting around here playing video games isn't really that fun, maybe I should go see what my friends are up to".
It's exactly the same thing with Everquest, except it works in a different way. You log on, you play the game, and you accomplish things in the game. You gain a level, or you get some new item, and that makes you feel like you've accomplished something. And you have. Getting to a high level in Everquest takes hard work and long hours. And because it takes the same sort of qualities that real accomplishments take to achieve, it seems like you're being productive.
To summarize: pot makes you do nothing but smoke pot because you don't care about accomplishing anything. EQ makes you do nothing by play EQ because it seems like you're accomplishing stuff.
Success in Everquest is a lot easier than in the real world. There's no random setbacks, your sword won't suddenly break, you can't get fired from your job, some dot com isn't going to collapse right after promoting you, and so on. It gives you a chance to socialize with people without the hassle of actually making friends.
Everquest is a perfectly fine diversion, but it's very very easy to get caught up in it and it become more than a diversion. What'll I do tonight? Well, I could go out to a club, have a few drinks...but...maybe I won't have a good time. I'll just play Everquest. Anyway, I started playing Everquest a lot while I was unemployed. Why not, since I didn't have anything else I needed to do? But the thing is that that sense of accomplishment from the game keeps you from being motivated to go accomplish anything in real life, so I'm quitting at least until I have my real life more in order.
Anyone want to be interviewed??? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am part of a theater company that travels to colleges in the US to do a non-judgemental artistic residency on the topic of addiction. In a series of workshops and a professional theatrical productions, we present the issue from all angles, using verbatum text of interviews with real people as the source for all our dialogue.
The show is called "the Quick Fix" [thequickfix.com] (pardon the website: I'm remodeling), and it primaraly seeks to examine the underlying causes of compulsive/addictive behavior. As I said before, we don't make judgements or present ourselves as having an 'answer'. We just listen to people (via interviews) and re-tell the stories, albeit with a little theatricalization thrown on top (music, dance, lighting, a bit of humor) to make it all a bit more interesting.
As an active participant in the online world, I've been trying to find an EQ or other online-activity addict to interview for some time. If anyone would like to talk to me (IM, email, irc, whatever) and maybe tell their story, contact me through my homepage (outlandishjosh.com) or at joshk(at)thequickfix.com. Your anonymitity will be respected.
Baldur's Gate (Score:4, Interesting)
in Canada its illegal to shelf citrus beverages which contain caffeine (Mountain Dew up here is decaf). Our government has declared covertly addictive products to be illegal. I believe games such as EQ qualify as covertly addictive. I can imagine policy banning certain psychologically addictive elements in these games, or at least "stickers" labelling them as such.
Personally, I think this would be stupid. It would, however, be consistent with the other policies of my government. (I have only been of voting age for one election, and I voted for some other clowns).
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:4, Funny)
Then of course reality slowly kicks back in and urges me to spend the next week in a bar with friends (whom I actually call, Mark, Eric and Fred and not Kueller, Vodobass and toString) thus leading to more hadaches, sleep deprivation and undernourishment I guess.
Then I usually find a job.
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:3, Interesting)
For me it usually happens with programming, though, as most games can't keep me occupied long enough to have that happen (Alpha Centauri, SimCity, and their ilk can do it pretty easily, which is why I avoid those). I'll just start kind of "thinking" in the language, and then I know it's time to take a break. :P
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:3, Informative)
Unfortuneately, many people don't. Check out this application for one of the 'Uber' EQ guilds.
http://www.fohguild.org/html/recruit.php [fohguild.org]
Note some of the downright anti-social requirements, such as a level 60 avatar, and the 'right' class. Most damning of the lot is this, which is a direct quote from the page:
- We raid generally 6 days a week. Attendance to at LEAST 5 days is required. If you are busy with work or school or any other outside responsibility and do not feel you can make it 5 times a week, this is not the right guild for you. Raid times vary on the weekends, but generally our weekday schedule is from 4pm PST until 10pm PST.
There are people with too much time on their hands out there. There are also people like this, who have abandoned real life in favor of the alternative.
Sony should (Score:5, Insightful)
This is no different from the whole "Doom killed my kids" thing. The parents obviously feel horrible, and can't face the fact that their negligence and/or poor parenting directly contributed to their childs demise. Therefore, someoine else must be to blame. Even if he killed himself because of events in the game he OBVIOUSLY didn't have a very solid seat in reality. She should go to jail for child abuse.
Just my 2 cents.
Re:Sony should (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well yes but those cases are rare (Score:3, Insightful)
People who blather on about 'being strong' and 'not being drug dependent' were either never serious cases or are utter morons. Don't presume to offer an authoritative opinion on something you know nothing about, especially when that opinion essentially devalues the experience and the quality of character of everyone with a serious mental illness.
Max
Re:Well yes but those cases are rare (Score:3, Insightful)
My wife was diagnosed with a "Chemical Imbalance". The only way for her to be "better" was to take medication.
She decided that she hated the way that the medication made her feel, and she decided she was going to seriously stop. She started eating better, exercising, and getting rid of her inner demons through serious talks. She went through therapy, and she came out of it with the chemical imbalance cured. All tests came out perfectly normal. It baffled the doctors, because western medicine doesn't teach that the body and mind can heal themselves.
Try learning a bit about holistic medicine. Your patients will thank you.
Re:Chemical change is controlled by the mind. (Score:3, Insightful)
2 people can have the same experience, and have different emotional responses (not just behavioural ones - *emotional* ones). Some people get dumped and become suicidal. Some are sad for a few days and then get better. Some become angry. This has nothing to do with what their behaviour is - it's about their neurochemical response to the stimuli. You can do things to influence your emotions to some extent - including taking drugs, exercising, distracting yourself. But all those changes are *also* ultimately implemented on a neurochemical level. And if you really don't accept that fact, that's fine, but you've become the equivalent of a flat-earther.
Re:Sony should (Score:5, Interesting)
That is not too far off, in Germany a judge (of all people) who lived on Mars-bars and Coca-Cola during the day, recently sued the makers for causing his diabetes (an article) [thefooddoctor.com].
Re:Its the kids fault (Score:3, Informative)
You've never been bullied much, have you? Or faced inescapable injustice?
I agree with the basis of your statement, but not the qualification. People can push others to very desperate acts. Even a very strongly willed individual has their breaking point.
But I do not believe that the case in this article falls into this scope.
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sadly, most people want to kill the messenger.
The problem with any non-realistic medium is that it attracts people who have problems dealing with reality.
99 out of 100 people who enjoy role-playing games, video games, or even LARPing are otherwise normal individuals who are doing something enjoyable with their time. It may even look like an 'obsession', but is only as addictive as any other intense hobby.
Now, that 100th person is the one who's already a little mentally unstable. He or she usually has problems dealing with others, a poor self-image, and a dangerously introverted personality. A suspension of disbeleif, something most role-playing activities call for, even something as mainstrem as EQ, is the most damaging thing that a person like this can encounter.
'Mazes and Monsters', the old Tom Hanks movie, is a little extreme in regards to portraying role-playing as a maddening experience. In the wrong hands, however, it *can* be a maddening experience, just like anything else that draws people in. People have talked about losing their lives to Soap Operas for decades, but I have yet to see anyone sue because 'Days of our Lives' turned their daughter into a stalker or a TV-obsessed maniac.
The individual in the article had existing mental problems, as well as severe epilepsy. He shouldn't have even been in front of a computer screen in the first place, let alone submerged in a fictional reality.
Now, that said, Verant has done a scary job of Making EQ so addictive that many don't realize their addicted. You can say that it wasn't designed to be addictive, but I disagree. First of all, none of the main status indicators in the game are numeric. The experience, mana, and hp bars are all graphical. The only one of these with a numeric indicator is the hp bar. While this lets people estimate their progress, it never lets them calculate it. Second, all of the progress gains happen on a random basis or have a random modifier. You can't, for example, Whack a monster with a sword 50 times and expect to rise 50 skill points.
This is heavily disguised random interval conditioning, which is the most effective method for training any animal.
Verant has carefully hidden any of the 'reality checks' that would help people prone to addiction and psychosis to realize that it *is* just a game. The best thing that Sony and Verant could do if they really cared about the individuals, which I do not beleive they do, is to put these clues back into the game. Just like a Real-life roleplayer can see the d20 hitting the table, give EQ rp'ers the ability to see their random checks and the numerical total of their experience and various factions.
Also, the penalty the Mother of the guy who offed himself is seeking is for Sony and Verant to include a warning message on their product. This really isn't that much to ask. Cigarette makers may scoff at this treatment, but Alcohol producers have learned that it helps them in the long run.
"WARNING: Prolonged use may result in sensitivity to sunlight and a damaged social life. Please remember that EverQuest is just a game..."
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:4, Interesting)
I would beg to differ on that point. I've known a manic depressive, and he was heavily into RPGs online and off. However, his family and his psychologist didn't stop it, they encouraged it. They took it as an opportunity, and rather than telling him to stop used it as a way to help him adjust. Except for the times he flipped out, you'd think he was totally normal...and over the three years I was in California hangning out with him, those flip outs became more and more rare, and he was more and more well adjusted to life in general. RPGs can be a big help to the mentally unstable, IF the family, friends, and mental health professionals recognize the amount of opportunity they provide in the way of building self confidence and socialization skills.
Of course, its easier to just say the games are at fault rather than work a little harder to use them in a way that can help.
Re:Goes a bit far... (Score:3, Insightful)
What about the mouse and keyboard sitting in front of the person? What about the can of Spaghetti-Os and Papa John's that the guy must have eaten? The game is confined into a little 17" square, and although it can really draw a person in, to suggest that there aren't enough reality checks for the person to tell if it is real or not seems a little ridiculous.
(However, the random interval conditioning thing is probably right on with this game.)
mark
Re:My prediction - Mass online suicide (Score:3, Funny)
bbh
Addiction != physiological dependence. (Score:3, Informative)
There are plenty of gambling addicts who would take offense at how you've minimized their disease. Having spent some time around problem gamblers, I can assure you that they are in just as much pain as the problem drinkers and drug abusers...and causing just as much pain to those around them.
One last thing -- addiction is largely a matter of genetics. If your family has a history of addiction, you run the risk of having those same genes. Your only real choice is whether to trigger the addictive behavior with your choices or not.
Re:This lady has her head on backwards!! (Score:5, Interesting)
This woman is seeking blame for something where there is nobody to blame. This man's head was thoroughly fucked up, and the game does not qualify as a cause.
The problem with people like me (and I assume him) is that we *can't* take responsibility because the depression destroys initiative as well as creating massive social anxiety. Social interaction is often an exercise on a par with going bungee jumping without inspecting the rope. We want to do something about our condition, but the fear that any attempt to get better will fail and leave us worse off than we started makes it not seem worthwhile to bother.
Online social interaction is a godsend to people in this situation because we (not so much me as others, but I'm not immune) can be ourselves without the difficulties of trying to adapt ourselves to social situations that we are unable to understand. The impersonal online world allows us to be the kind of person we are deep down without the crushing fear that prevents us from being ourselves in real life. Honestly? Everything I am typing now I can only say because I'm typing it. If I were to tell this to someone face-to-face I'd never be able to get it out coherently.
The fact is that people in this situation (at least speaking for myself) can never feel fully accepted; barring some miracle we always feel as if we are on the outside looking in, no matter how accepted we are outside of our own heads, and the hope has been sapped from our lives. It's hard for people who have never experienced this to understand (and I do realize that a rather large number of
So I feel for this guy. I think I know where he was, and I think his mother is a fool for trying to pin blame. This guy needed to be outright hospitalized. As far as he knew, there was no way out.
/Brian
Re:Hysterical! Misreporting! On! Slashdot! (Score:4, Insightful)
My, oh my. The title did read:
And now, as if by magic, it reads:
OK, we're getting the idea. Thing is, this is the web. It's all cached somewhere. Maybe an idea to acknowledge the correction when you screw up, rather than trying to cover it up. You're writing for the record here, guys.
Re:Downright Dumb (Score:5, Funny)
I am a theoretical mathematician... I suppose that means you won't be sorry when I am dead.