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Georgia Tech Cracks Down on Learning

chrisd posted about 12 years ago | from the as-told-by-third-person-limited dept.

News 979

The Washington Post has an article today on a Georgia Tech student who almost flunked his intro to comp sci course for just discussing his homework with someone else. Note that no one including the faculty accused him of actually copying any code from anyone. However, the "honor code" at Georgia Tech "forbids its introductory computer science students from seeking any help from other students on their homework." The faculty recorded part of his violation on the forms as "He was trying to learn it." This is something that high school seniors might want to keep in mind when selecting which university to attend.

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979 comments

fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354726)

fp

Props to all dead homos!

Re:fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354866)

Stop giving props to that aids monkey Klerck.

Georgia is a WIDE state! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | about 12 years ago | (#3354728)

And maybe slashdot should crack down on widening!


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Email me and tell me what you think of widening! [mailto]

Re:Georgia is a WIDE state! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354798)

Klerck is a scab-infested cocksmoking whore. So is his mother and father.

College isn't for learning... (4, Funny)

Dimensio (311070) | about 12 years ago | (#3354732)

...it's for drinking, partying, having casual sex and possibly absusing some illegal substances.

It must be true, popular culture says so.

Uh, you forgot... (1)

Penguinoflight (517245) | about 12 years ago | (#3354820)

Getting a job that pays more than Cowboyneal because you graduated. This all would be fixed if the just sent the parents to college with them! Of course, they probably wouldn't learn anything that way either.

Re:College isn't for learning... (4, Funny)

yellowjacket03 (470997) | about 12 years ago | (#3354823)

As a Georgia Tech alum, I can tell you that with a 73% male to 27% female student distribution, casual sex is anything but.

Or maybe it was just me.

Re:College isn't for learning... (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354871)

you mean... casual sex was in the butt.

(cause of a lack of options, of course)

Re:College isn't for learning... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354887)

It's good that a school is finally standing up against learning. Out of all the things wrong with America right now its education - we need to make it our number one priority and ensure kids of all ages and races are not learning in school. The results of learning could be devistating -- one day a few kids are learning together and helping each other out, next day they form independent thought and do something for the world. Geez.

Way to find a chisel on a tablet.

_
WINDOWS USERS CLICK HERE! [paware.com]

what? (2, Funny)

AnimeFreak (223792) | about 12 years ago | (#3354739)

You'd think they'd crack down on drinking, drugs, and cheating first. :P

If schools ban learning, then I guess the "fun factor" is what College is all about. :)

Assembly (2, Insightful)

Beliskner (566513) | about 12 years ago | (#3354746)

This happened at my college over an assembly language program. Simple 20-lne factorisation algorithm. They told the lecturers that it's real hard to get 2 different listings for the same simple ASM algorithm. The commenting was different at least, but they still got an official plagiarism warning.

Re:Assembly (1)

G0SP0DAR (552303) | about 12 years ago | (#3354910)

What language was it? If it were some simple instruction set, i.e. RISC or something simpler, it would not be surprising if half the class came up with the same code. Then again, with x86 generations, you have to wonder, although the incident still seems absurd.

If they learn from each other... (2, Insightful)

chris_mahan (256577) | about 12 years ago | (#3354756)

If they learn from each other, they will progress faster, get better grades, and repreat fewer classes. Does this mean less money for the university?

Maybe they do have a real motive for not letting students help each other: Greed.

Re:If they learn from each other... (2, Flamebait)

Xerithane (13482) | about 12 years ago | (#3354839)

Uh, no.

It's because they don't want to overload their CS department with crapon-in-a-hat-nimrods. I'll give you points for your conspiracy theory, but it's bunk.

If they were worried about money, they would let anybody go into higher CS. If you'll note, it's just the Intro to CS class. Because they want people that can learn on their own. I don't blame them, and think more colleges should do this for every major. If you can't get through the intro course with just the instructors help, you don't belong in that major.

Re:If they learn from each other... (2, Interesting)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | about 12 years ago | (#3354853)

Honor codes like this are designed to prevent diluting the reputation of a university by ensuring that each student really and truly learns the material in order to graduate. Most universities hire absured numbers of tutors from the upper class and graduate division to assist you. At my university half of them were let go because no one, not one student, went to see them.

There is no accounting for laziness. To be honest, no university can teach computer science; anyone who will be successful in this field has to have enough interest to persue it as a hobby, if not a lifestyle, in order to succeed. It can be learned solo--I learned more in high school on my own than I ever did in college.

There seems to be this opinion that everyone who takes the course should pass, and this quite frankly disgusts me. Iam currently still persuing my degree and I am saddled by group projects and burdened with seniors who cannot write a compilable line of C. These are not people who should be seniors; they got where they are now by "learning" from their partners.

So? (1)

Penguinoflight (517245) | about 12 years ago | (#3354760)

I really don't see whats so bad, he didn't get expelled, and he should have asked his TEACHER for help, not another student. Maybe you should consider that their team stinks more :-)

Re:So? (0)

MorrowLess (81117) | about 12 years ago | (#3354804)

I believe he had a question during the weekend...to me this means when teachers and TA's readily available. But oh, amazingly there are still numerous other students around.

Re:So? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354807)

But he did try to ask for help from a TA and instructor.

"When he found himself with a homework assignment he did not understand, and no teaching assistants or professors available on a campus off-week, he convinced himself that just chatting with another student would not violate the rules. "

Re:So? (1)

squidinkcalligraphy (558677) | about 12 years ago | (#3354809)

Dunno how it is in the US, but in Australia, the teachers are so few and far between that this is often not possible, and if it is, u often get told to go and read the text book. If students can learn from themselves, then hell, why not. Unis are about learning, not specifically restricted to learning from lecturers and text-books.

Re:So? (2, Informative)

Linuxthess (529239) | about 12 years ago | (#3354814)

Have you read the article?

"When he found himself with a homework assignment he did not understand, and no teaching assistants or professors available on a campus off-week, he convinced himself that just chatting with another student would not violate the rules"

----------

Re:So? (1)

Whatsthiswhatsthis (466781) | about 12 years ago | (#3354826)

Maybe you should have read the article. As it was plainly stated, he could not find a teacher or a teacher's assistant because it was an off week for the university.

Oh please (2)

Ghoser777 (113623) | about 12 years ago | (#3354832)

Heaven forbid that people help each other. I pray to God this mentality doesn't exist in any schools I teach at. The teacher knows all and students are simply bins to be filled with info. RIGHT, that's a good pedagogy. The most effective learning takes place when students take authoriship of the learning process. We'll just assume that the lecture format is okay for the moment. Are you really suggesting that students shouldn't learn from each other? I'd love to see how far science would be right now if everyone just stuck their heads in the sand and ignored everyone else besides their mentor or teacher.

You wonder why people have trouble grasping concepts? It's because they try to memorize them as procedures and not as real world results that can be derived if you look close enough. A complete teach-knows-all model helps create that line of thinking.

Sigh...
F-bacher

How about reading the article? (1)

food-n-bev (570990) | about 12 years ago | (#3354859)

"When he found himself with a homework assignment he did not understand, and no teaching assistants or professors available on a campus off-week..."

I don't think it was unreasonable for him to talk with another student.

Have things really gotten this bad? I remember being encouraged to work together back in my undergrad comp sci days.

Re:So? (2)

Gary Yngve (416254) | about 12 years ago | (#3354863)

Regardless, if he would have just *cited* what he had borrowed from other people, he would not be guilty of academic misconduct. The graders may not have given him credit for creating that portion of the code, but he would have been honest about what was his own original work.

Re:So? (3, Interesting)

morgajel (568462) | about 12 years ago | (#3354908)

in a perfect world, all professors would have absolute and complete knowledge on every topic they teach, and a firm grasp on any topic they might come across in class.

however, this is not a perfect world.

at my lovely college(GVSU), most of the professors I've had are incompetent, can't teach, or just plain don't know the subject matter.
One of my Profs has went so far as using ANOTHER Professors code to teach his classes(IRONY) while not even understanding it. When my classmates asked him for help because none of it made sense, he admitted he only know what it was SUPPOSED to do, not if (or how) it actually worked.

so yeah, I'm disenfranchised with the the entire college situation. there are only a handful of Professors in the CS department who 'have a clue.'

I'd say that I seriously spend about 80-90% of my time working on classwork with someone else because it just doesn't make sense(with the rare exception of Prof. Wolffe- his classes are difficult, and you learn a ton).

I personally learn better having a colleague explain it to me than a professor, simply because I either have a hard time understanding my professor(I can't comprehend accents very well) or the professor just doesn't have a clue.

and don't even get me STARTED on Gen-Ed's!

but then again in CS, it's all about the degree- I occasionally forget I'm supposed to teach myself everything.

The Slashdot friend / foe system really works (2)

MillionthMonkey (240664) | about 12 years ago | (#3354943)

I suspected your post was going to be stupid as soon as I saw the red light next to your ID. And it turns out I was right!

Makes me wonder what you said before that pissed me off. :-)

Unsurprising (2, Interesting)

Torinaga-Sama (189890) | about 12 years ago | (#3354761)

Learning ceased to be a part of public education a long time ago.

This makes me happy I went to a progressive college. Now if only I had been thinking ahead enough to go into CS instead of literature, I would be in better shape.

Re:Unsurprising (3, Insightful)

Gary Yngve (416254) | about 12 years ago | (#3354912)

Georgia Tech makes engineers.
In a way, it's like boot camp, and things can get ugly, but when you come out, you are one helluva engineer.

I recall a statics professor explaiing why he doesn't give any partial credit, even if the only error was an incorrect sign: "Would you get any partial credit for building the bridge upside down?"

Personally, I don't want the people who are writing controllers for airplanes I fly in to be a bunch of cheating losers. Strict rules have their place, and I fully support Georgia Tech behind their decisions.

*gasp* a southern school? (1, Flamebait)

acoustix (123925) | about 12 years ago | (#3354764)

Makes me glad that I got my education in Iowa!

Re:*gasp* a southern school? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354868)

cuz there's honor in corn? mmmmm....that's good eatin'

just preparation... (2, Interesting)

squidinkcalligraphy (558677) | about 12 years ago | (#3354765)

They are obviously preparing the students for a life in the corporate computing world; how long b4 u have to sign confidentiality agreements for doing assignments at uni? Doesn't seem as tho they like the concept of open-source.

Re:just preparation... (2, Insightful)

billstr78 (535271) | about 12 years ago | (#3354890)

Everyone knows that Universities do not encourage students to code like programmers in the industry. If they did nobody would ever learn how to write a simple linked list, they would just use the STL or java.util interface.

The point of the do-it-yourself and do-it-by-yourself mentality at Universities is that knowledge it is nothing without integrity and a student who just knows the API's and interfaces will be obsoleted with those API's in 5 years. However a student who learns the fundamentals and reasoning behind these API's, will stand a chance at learning the new and interesting things the industry churns out.

Well Shit (3, Funny)

BiggestPOS (139071) | about 12 years ago | (#3354766)

Talking about your homework IS cheating. Hell, DOING homework is cheating yourself out of your spare time.

Who turns someone in for something like this anyway?

isn't that how you do code (2, Insightful)

neo8750 (566137) | about 12 years ago | (#3354768)

you ask other people for help on something. they may know a better way to do it. in my eyes not being able to discusse ideas is bad.

Teaching people not to be open with there source is bad. the student learns this habbit.Then it leads to the whole open source community will be hit.

Slashdot is Shit (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354769)

And Rob Malda eats it.

What a fucking lame story - some punk kid breaks the rules and gets punished for it! Oh no, we can't obey the rules, we're cool Slashdot "geeks"!

Come to Kuro5hin [kuro5hin.org] for great Justice. (and smarter people)

Honor Codes (4, Insightful)

Cato the Elder (520133) | about 12 years ago | (#3354771)

Rigid "honor codes" lead to ridiculous situations. I am reminded of a story from a friend who went to Davidson, where someone she knew was disciplined for honor code violations after taking an extra can of soda that a machine mistakenly dispensed. A true honor code should be flexible. Otherwise, what is the point? Everyone knows what they are supposed to do when the rules are cut-and-dry, the purpose of an honor code should be to foster honorable/moral behavior in situations the rules do not cover.

Re:Honor Codes (0, Flamebait)

Whatsthiswhatsthis (466781) | about 12 years ago | (#3354862)

I've heard first hand of Davidson's strict honor codes. Apparently they don't even pick up change off the sidewalks. Although I have heard of someone picking up a quarter and taping it to the door with the message, "Found near this door."

Re:Honor Codes (1)

user32.ExitWindowsEx (250475) | about 12 years ago | (#3354897)

Davidson's honor codes are that notorious. My sister went there (thank G-d she didn't get in trouble) and she's vouched for those sorts of things happening.

Go to the U of Illinois@ CU (2, Redundant)

Ghoser777 (113623) | about 12 years ago | (#3354775)

Every CS course I've been in has ENCOURAGED group work. It's not like humans are social creatures who learn best in social situations. I'm glad I didn't go there... or all my friends would be screwed ;)

F-bacher

Re:Go to the U of Illinois@ CU (2)

quantaman (517394) | about 12 years ago | (#3354858)

Same here at the University of Alberta, the profs all encourage us to work together and ask other students for help. In my logic course we even have to explicitly state wether or not we recieved help on the assignment and from who. It doesn't really matter how well you do on your assignments, in the end it comes down to the exams and lab exams. At that point the point isn't whether you recieved help it's how well you can do the stuff. If other people helped you learn it that's great, you and them will do great on the tests because you know your stuff. However if you got stuck on some trivial aspect of the basics and never asked for help or you copied all your assignments and never figured it out for yourself you better be ready to take it again.

Re:Go to the U of Illinois@ CU (2)

Xerithane (13482) | about 12 years ago | (#3354895)

If your friends could not get through Intro to CS without your help, why are they a CS major?

Seems like an interesting solution (2)

gmhowell (26755) | about 12 years ago | (#3354777)

No, wait, listen. There have been numerous discussions on slashdot regarding the difficulty in monitoring and analysing the types of programs written in intro classes. So rather than try to figure out collaboration vs. "let-me-copy-that-program-verbatim", this is an interesting solution.

OTOH, being unable to discuss assignments, theories, etc. makes the class/program no better than a correspondence school.

Notice the most indefensible part (4, Insightful)

Beryllium Sphere(tm) (193358) | about 12 years ago | (#3354785)

[quote]
A brand-new rule says a computer science student is wrong to try to seek answers to questions ANYWHERE other than from course materials or Georgia Tech staff
[/quote]

An exam is one thing, homework is another. Homework is supposed to reinforce the skills you'll need later. One of those skills is research.

How To Be An Incompetent Engineer 101...

Re:Notice the most indefensible part (4, Informative)

Gary Yngve (416254) | about 12 years ago | (#3354840)

Those policies are really only for the introductory courses. Face it, coding is something that takes time. It is applied. You cannot be tested in just an hour on coding abilities. The homework assignments for CS13xx serve as a form of test.
Once the students "pass" this test and take later CS courses, most of the projects are collaborative in nature from the sheer magnitude of what has to be coded. But at some point, people have to be judged on their ability to code. Find me a better way to judge and I'll be all ears.

Re:Notice the most indefensible part (1)

ShadowDrgn (114114) | about 12 years ago | (#3354928)

There's a difference between looking up methods in the Java API, reading a book on Java, etc. versus typing "java code for searching graphs" into Google.

When you do research for an English class, you find what other people have done and you cite them and build off or compare/contrast their conclusions. You don't copy their quotes and claim them to be your own.

What *wouldn't* be a violation? (3, Interesting)

loggia (309962) | about 12 years ago | (#3354787)

If the student did research in a book?

Violation?

If the student asked his father or mother?

Violation?

If the student joined an online discussion group?

Violation?

???????

Re:What *wouldn't* be a violation? (1)

spike hay (534165) | about 12 years ago | (#3354860)

(Humor)

If the student asked his father or mother?

You: Dad, I need help on my classpaths.

Dad: WTF are you talking about???

The Fallacy of Schools as places of Learning (2, Insightful)

benthesinister (574191) | about 12 years ago | (#3354789)

Schools are not made for LEARNING They are places to contain people until they have been indoctrinated properly. I sit through 8 hours of school every day, I learn nothing. Today was unusual, I learned one thing as a direct result of my classes. Typically, I learn nothing except that trying to stand up to my teachers or fellow students is futile. Every day, the system attempt to break my non-conformity. This incident at Georgia Tech does nothing but reinforce this point. This student wasn't in the class to learn something, he was in the class to receive more specific indoctrination for his selected profession.

Wow (3, Insightful)

Ghoser777 (113623) | about 12 years ago | (#3354898)

I agree in more ways than I want to admit. And I'm going to be a teacher next year! I've come to the conclusion that schools are set in place not to educate, but to make you proftable. It's not about learning, it's about money. How many times have I heard my professor say, "If only we had more time..." Why don't we get into the really important stuff? Because there isn't enough hours in the day to meet all the requirements that make me look like a good job applicant and see why math or computer science is really cool on another level.

My philosophy: School is a hoop that I must jump through so that one day my students will not have to jump through so many. Never let schooling stand in the way of your education, or so Samuel Clemons says. My latest (guided) revelation is that I am part of a system that is ineffective at preparing students, and all we get are books about standards and attempts to change the system instead of deconstructing problems within the system. True change comes by recognizing the flawed assumptions that are inherent in the system, allowing us to come to a new and more authentic view of how education should work. But individual change is futile; all educators and all education must change as a whole or not at all. The task is difficult; are any of us up to the challenge?

F-bacher

Learning in the Classroom (1)

universatile_style (258330) | about 12 years ago | (#3354790)

I would have thought that the school would promote such behavior. In my past experiences I've learned things quite well from discussions with other students on homework assignments. I think that for Georgia Tech to deny them that form of collaboration would be a great hindrance to the students...2 cents

If I were this guy... (4, Funny)

ebbomega (410207) | about 12 years ago | (#3354799)

I would send the following mail:

To whom it may concern,

I would like to apologize for my behavior. It was wrong and immoral. I suppose, because of my youth, that I thought it would be justifiable to learn. I now see otherwise, and hope to discontinue this behavior for the rest of my career.

I thought that it might be a good dodge to spend some of my time in first year learning, and that it might be an investment towards my GPA for me to acquire knowledge from other human beings. Oh well, I guess we all learn our lessons of life somehow. I understand that in discussing in an academic forum setting is wrong and I promise that for the endurement of my University career, I will absolve any attempt at communicating with my peers, as it seems to only decrement my academic standpoint and tarnish the reputation of the University, as well as compromising the institution of Education on the whole.

I promise I will avoid learning for the rest of my college career and rely only on myself and my own experiences with the natural environment to do so. Furthermore, I resolve to lock myself in my room for the remainder of the semester in hopes that social interaction will not tempt me into deteriorating my Computer Studies goals. As well, I will avoid going to lectures and tutorials, as well as any open labs, since the professors and TAs may accidentally teach me something, in which case I will compromise the goals the University seems to have set forth.

Sincerely,

****

Glad to know open academic forums (What Universities are intended to be) are still just that.

Flunked for Copying "Hello World" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354800)

msgbox("Hello World")

Reality 101 (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354805)

I am a student at a major, top-10 computer science university. Personally, I would NEVER ever discuss homework or even class materials with any student. You see, it only hurts me. Teachers usually adjust my grade to something known as a "bell curve," which means I am not evaluated by my work alone, but by my work compared to the work of others. So, giving any help to any student whatsoever is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Life sucks, don't it?

In my defense, I will say that at the major, Fortune-500 company that I am employed as a programmer, I spend my day talking to others about design and implementation issues, and all things CS.

I hope this post provides insight into why such a policy may exist, and the motivations that a university has to enforce it.

Love,
Anonymous Coward

Re:Reality 101 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354913)

If it was a Major Fortune 500 Company wouldn't that make it a Fortune 100 Company?

Re:Reality 101 (1)

zekt (252634) | about 12 years ago | (#3354939)

The only problem with this is you don't develop the communication skills required in the work place. You are not only going to speak to techies when you hit industry, you will quite often be speaking to people without a clue about IT and have to justify what you are doing it (and why you are spending their money).

Having had practice teaching others helps this immensely.

Defining Plagerism. (1)

actappan (144541) | about 12 years ago | (#3354813)

This is something that in general is becoming increasingly prevalent in academic communities. Rather than focusing on acquiring and developing knowledge, and passing that knowledge on - it seems that much of the academic hierarchy has become obsessed with obtaining credit for their work.

Not that this isn't due, but this is vastly hindering peoples ability to learn.

They cannot possibly expect a first year student to produce stunning, wholly original work? Did these individuals them selves never work in a co-operative environment?
So when does co-operation become cheating? When does building on the concepts put forth in previous work become plagiarism?

When you steal without any idea of your own.

Anyone who ever wrote "Hello World" is now a lying cheating stealing bastard ('Cept for that first one. They're ok.)

Before we condemn the school... (4, Insightful)

cperciva (102828) | about 12 years ago | (#3354819)

wouldn't it be good to wait until we hear the school's side of the story? It is very easy to claim that you were only trying to learn the course material, but with only a single quote -- which was certainly taken out of context -- to indicate the school's view on the situation, it is hardly fair to weigh in on either side.

Re:Before we condemn the school... (3, Informative)

brunes69 (86786) | about 12 years ago | (#3354915)

Single quote? RTFA (Read The Fucking Article). IT is quite clear what the school's stance is.

"A brand-new rule says a computer science student is wrong to try to seek answers to questions ANYWHERE other than from course materials or Georgia Tech staff. Rooting around in old books in the library, checking the Internet, calling your cousin at Caltech--all are forbidden."

Re:Before we condemn the school... (1)

doorbot.com (184378) | about 12 years ago | (#3354942)

Why bother? Then you take the risk that there really is a valid reason and thus all the previous posters must be modded down as trolls. Of course, this kind of behavior (checking articles and sources to ensure journalistic integrity and informational accuracy) would throw Slashdot into a downward spiral such that the servers would beg for mercy (a degaussing tool).

stupid slashdot headlines (2, Insightful)

RN (21554) | about 12 years ago | (#3354824)

ok, i believe that georgia tech is in the wrong here because their rules were too vague and you shouldn't get busted just for discussing homework with someone else. But for chrisd to put such an inflammatory headline like "GA Tech Cracks Down On Learning" is just stupid and non-informative to anybody. This smacks of a cheap tabloid headline just to get pageviews.

Also , GATech has one of the top engineering schools in the country, I don't think you should suggest people stay away from it just because of a stupid incident like this. They meant well, it backfired on them, and they will probably reevaluate their policy, as the article says.

What is the Issue here? (1, Troll)

ftg (412799) | about 12 years ago | (#3354825)

1. The student did something expressly forbidden.

2. Students' excuses in such matters are always pathetic and disingenuous. The student wasn't trying to learn, he/she was trying to cheat.

3. I am appalled by the attitude of the submitter in this matter. This is serious and should be treated as such. Can we get a responsible update to correct this?????

Ok this is retarded (4, Interesting)

Progoth (98669) | about 12 years ago | (#3354834)

I go to Georgia Tech. Yes, the student was accused of cheating. Yes, this is because he was caught cheating. Yes, the article states this, and then goes on to tell how it's "not that bad." Whoever wrote this summary of the article needs to brush up on their reading comprehension skills.

As for what happened to the student....He had a substantial amount of code (probably around 30 lines) that was verbatim with another student. As the article says, he should have not turned it in and lost the 2% instead of cheating. He can't handle responsibility for his actions so he and his dad pitch a fit and blame it on the college of computing.

Tech may not be the top CS school, but I think our program is pretty good, and their strictness when it comes to cheating only adds credence to the degree you get when you graduate from the Computer Science department. The strictness is not a reason to avoid this school, but a reason to come here.

Georgia Tech Email (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354844)

If you guys want something to be done in the case, I suggest emailing the President's office of Georgia Tech. Please send courteous/well-thought out messages, as they will probably be read more than flaming ones.

Send email to: wayne.clough@carnegie.gatech.edu

Any comments would be greatly helpful.

Imagine this in an engineering department ..... (1)

quantumparadox (454022) | about 12 years ago | (#3354845)

As an undergraduate engineer I can barely contemplate the horror this sort of draconian policy could bring to our department. Luckily, our department encourages collaboration, however, harshly punishes cheaters. As our university (Simon Fraser University) has had several cheating scandals lately the crackdown has begun here as well. If we had that sort of policy like 90% of the engineering department would get failed out (although 60% do anyways).

I often provide help and guidance for my fellow engineers but I certainly never do their work for them and this sort of punishment is completely contradictory to the way I was taught to learn. I wish Georgia Tech luck enforcing this new policy ... and trying to recruit students next year.

Lost (1)

Tadrith (557354) | about 12 years ago | (#3354846)

Is it just me, or does it seems like colleges and universities are becoming increasingly out of touch with reality?

Prohibiting one student from asking another student a question is absurd. People learn from each other every day, it's a natural part of being HUMAN. It only makes it worse than many people are PAYING to go and receive this kind of treatment.

This must be some kind of new trend. First, corporations decide to treat their customers like they're criminals. Now we've got universities that want to presume you're violating the rules. What next?

Gilligan's Island rule (2, Interesting)

billstr78 (535271) | about 12 years ago | (#3354848)

I like the rule some of the upper-division classes at my University has adopted. It's called the Gilligan's Island rule and is a nice comprimise between collaboration and cheating.

You may discuss programming projects with your friends, but you are expected to abide by the Gilligan's Island rule3--the only thing you may bring to such a discussion is you, and no written notes may be taken away from the meeting. Looking at, modifying, or copying each other's files or solutions is forbidden. If you are unsure of what is and is not allowed by this policy, please talk to the professor before doing something that might be considered cheating.

3The Gilligan's [sitcomsonline.com]
Island rule states that following a discussion of the project, a break
must be taken for at least a half hour before coding. Watching something
inane like Gilligan's [sitcomsonline.com]
Island on television satisfies this rule.

"Cracks Down on Learning"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354850)

That's bullshit, I totally support GT and their cracking down on stuff like this. If they say "do the homework on your own" then do it on your own! At my school, probably half the people in the upper division classes couldn't code HelloWorld.c. They get through by asking all their homies for the answers and copying answers on exams. The sooner these losers change their major to English the better. How's it going to reflect on other graduates of the department if you go out into industry and you can't even write a simple program??

The use of a Bachelors... (2)

GearheadX (414240) | about 12 years ago | (#3354855)

These days a Bachelors degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on anyway. Most companies typically view a Bachelors in most majors as proof that you're capable of learning how to perhaps do a job.

A prof that actually cares about critical thinking in this day and age is a rare bird.

Google (1)

Neil Blender (555885) | about 12 years ago | (#3354856)

Maybe they will start using google to search usenet comp sci groups for Georgia Tech email addresses. What's the difference between a GT student and anyone else? Seems like the policy is 'figure it out yourself.'

In Other News (2)

debrain (29228) | about 12 years ago | (#3354857)

Georgia Tech adds DMCA clause to their entrance agreement.

Don't laugh. I'm being satirical. It's funny because it's not far from the truth.

Hrmmm (1)

Kwikymart (90332) | about 12 years ago | (#3354861)

I am currently in highschool right now (graduating), and I am probably going to go to on to University at SFU [www.sfu.ca] (British Colombia, Canada) in CS, obviously. I was wondering if any /.-ers go there, and if so, is there anything to look out for such as what this articles talks about? I have read the statement on intellectual dishonesty and I dont find any CS related stuff, but it would be good to know from a first-hand source. And no, I dont plan on cheating when I go there, but this type of thing gives an idea on what kind of a school it is.

A little knowledge is dangerous.... (1)

foolish youngster (168792) | about 12 years ago | (#3354864)

But actually understanding something is downright subversive. God help us if we have the ability to actually do a job. It seems this honor code is intended to prevent the transfer or discussion of ideas in an institution of higher learning. Maybe the dean should have taken that dose when he was offered it back in 67.....

Similarities in code can flunk you out! (0, Redundant)

ZiZ (564727) | about 12 years ago | (#3354867)

So just remember, next time you're going to write a Hello World program, don't just write

#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{
printf("Hello, World.");
return 0;
}

because that will have similar code to other students...No, instead you must look to the code of great [ioccc.org] IOCCC [ioccc.org] winners for your homework projects...

The Price of Zero Tolerance... (2)

Bonker (243350) | about 12 years ago | (#3354872)

I'm fairly sure I know exactly how GT's 'No Collaboration' rule came into effect. As with any college CS body, a few students took advantage of their ability to code and modify code to cheat or alternate doing homework assignments.

Rather than deal with the situation efficiently and responsibly, and probably also because of the stygian pro-intellectual property mantras that are chanted in most College CS departments, Georgia Tech introduced yet another ill-conceived Zero-Tolerance policy in order to take choice and discretion out of the hands of individuals and place it in the hands of administrators... who usually don't care or don't have time to investigate individual cases like individual teachers or professors would.

Mediocrity and inefficiency in administration is the direct result of Zero Tolerance policies in almost all circumstances. Any ZT policy will result in innocent people being punished for an imaginary wrong-doing. This is the case with schools who have zero-tolerance drug and weapons policies who expel students for having kitchen utensils or aspirin on their persons. This is the case with schools who expel students for even the most innocent public displays of affection.

Still, the lure of not having to have any personal responsibility for the wrong-doings of their students is too great a reward for the administrators of public and private schools to pass up. After all, how can the life of one student compare to the well-being of all the rest?

As long as people are able to have this mentality and not feel reprocussions from it, this kind of mass anti-social behavior will continue.

Conspicuously vague (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354874)

I think the article is very conspicuous with respect to how little information it gives as to the nature of the infraction. Perhaps most telling is that the student's program shared 30 lines of code with another student's. We can look at this relatively and say 30 lines out of a large program is nothing (although this is an introductory CS course for non-majors--how large a program could it be?). If those 30 lines were some crucial algorithm, and the rest of the program was simple file I/O, console I/O, error-checking, etc. then I think there's a legitimate cause for concern.

no opportunity to enjoy learning (2)

Tekmage (17375) | about 12 years ago | (#3354878)

I have to say, I pity those students.

One of the most refreshing and enjoyable aspects of my [queensu.ca] university years was the opportunity to discuss what we were being taught with fellow students who actually wanted to learn. Anything less and it would have been mind-numbing highschool all over again.

I copied my way to a CS degree (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354880)

I think I only completed one "major" project by myself, and cheated/copied the rest of the way through. The assignments in most CS programs are bullshit and have no bearing in the business world.

another ridiculous syllabus (1)

wifflefan (23164) | about 12 years ago | (#3354883)

Quoted from the syllabus where I attend school (a 4-year, mostly engineering university):

"Submit assessment material on time and submit only your own work."

Quoted from the programming assignment I will turn in tomorrow (emphasis is as it appears on the assignment):

" PROGRAMS MUST BE INDEPENDENT AND ORIGINAL WORK. "

I challenge any student out there to submit a program to his/her professor and it be completely "INDEPENDENT AND ORIGINAL." It's probably never gonna happen. One, if you're implementing any of the algorithms discussed in most common introductory algorithm textbooks, you're probably repeating the work of thousands of students, regardless of how independent you may try to be. Two, it is likely that your prof gave you hints/tips on your program; if you're using those hints/tips, they are not original, not independent.

w|f

NEVER re-invent the wheel (0)

Anon0mous (549084) | about 12 years ago | (#3354884)


if we constantly re-invent things that already exist/known we will never progress. Talking to ones peers may bring knowledge faster, its called effective communication, which is probably the reason we have travelled so far in such a short time (ie: last 100years) Is this a moral judgement or a logical one ?

collaboration (1)

reelbk (213809) | about 12 years ago | (#3354889)

Honor codes such as this one are ridiculous. In a professional environment, one must be able to co-operate. It's a good thing to get feedback on something from somebody else. A student shouldn't be expected to go running to the prof whenever he encounters some tough bug in his program. If you constantly ran to your boss or supervisor when you encountered a bug, you'd be canned in no time. Competent professionals rely on their own problem solving and research abilities, but they are also able to collaborate...

jumping through hoops. (1)

thanjee (263266) | about 12 years ago | (#3354893)

Unfortunately University has become a place where you have to jump through hoops in order to get a degree.
All the available evidence indicates the school has done its best to instill fear in any student who might think of even raising the issue of CS 1321 homework with a classmate.
He and the other 186 students knew the hoops. I agree it is UBERstrict, but they were given lectures on not doing it, and they did it anyway. The lecturers and tutors are the ones paid to give help. If they are unhelpful then there are avenues open to deal with that issue. I do feel sorry for the students, but being a teacher now myself I know you just have to stick to your own guidelines once they are set. You give a couple of students a little leeway, and you open a floodway. It happens so easily.

I remember 1st year Engineering (0)

codeguy007 (179016) | about 12 years ago | (#3354901)

In first year engineering physics at U of Calgary you need to compare your assignment answers with your fellow classmates. You couldn't afford to lose the marks by not getting the assignment right.


On a more computer related note. Our Fortran 77 Professor expected use to memorize the programs he wrote up on the board and write the exact same thing on the midterm and finals.


I remember how shocking it was when we got our marks back. People with perfectly running and probably better code lost marks because it wasn't verbatim to what he had written on the chalkboard. Some cute chick who probably didn't know a pointer and printf statement got 100% because she memorized what he wrote on the board. Needless to say we didn't make the same mistake on the final.


BTW The Prof also taugh our 8 AM course drunk more than not.

What?!?!? (2, Insightful)

rmohr02 (208447) | about 12 years ago | (#3354902)

Sometimes a teacher just doesn't explain something very well. I have a couple of teachers who don't always seem to grasp what some people are trying to ask them, so they ask someone else in their class. Just because of this merely talking about an assignment should never be cause for an "F".

Many of the cases appear to be just like his--similarities in a few lines of computer code on a very complicated assignment which he discussed with a friend.... But the freshman was accused of similarities on 30 out of hundreds of lines of computer code.


Ooh, big deal. There is a pretty good chance of people getting similar code on the same project. I do not claim to be an expert in Computer Programming, but I do know that if two different people make a routine for the same thing it will pretty much look the same.

I do realize that the unnamed student that the article refers to actually did cheat, but there is no proof at all, and certainly not all the people with similarities in coding cheated.

how many variations ? (2)

Alien54 (180860) | about 12 years ago | (#3354904)

Many of the cases appear to be just like his, similarities in a few lines of computer code on a very complicated assignment which he discussed with a friend.

OK

so how many ways are their to code a introductory coding assignment.

To cite from another field. I know one person whose intro music assignment (writing out a set of changes) accidently came up with a a tune known to the teacher (but very very obscure) - As an example the chord progression of the Flintstone's Theme, like hundreds of other tunes, is derived from the Gershwin tune "I've Got Rhythm." Jazzers refer to this progression as "rhythm changes," and it is second only to blues as a vehicle for improv (a jam tune!).

In music, you are looking for depth and complexity, etc. In Code, you are going the other way, into simplicity.

There are only so many ways to code simply.

Groups? (1)

justletmeinnow (315504) | about 12 years ago | (#3354916)

There goes the idea of study groups... oh well, I always hated the idea of sharing my hard work with the other drunks assigned to my group. It always seems like one guy is coding and the other two or three are listening to mp3's and watching TV!

But... (3, Insightful)

meggito (516763) | about 12 years ago | (#3354921)

An intro comp sci course has problems with simple answers. Its kind of like everyone's doing the same math proof. You just have to figure out the right order of steps. If someone just tells you those steps then its not problem.

For example, we had this game where you had to pick up stones and make sure your opponent picked up the last one. You can only pick up three at once. Assume one line of stones... We were supposed to write an 'AI' (I use the term losely) that would play to win. The truth is that its as simple as making sure that it takes stones so that the remainder modulus 4 equals 1. That way, no matter what the other guy picks you can get it back down to that modulus 1, and when there's only 1 stone left he takes it. I was the ONLY one in my class to figure it out before class was over, but within a minute or so I was able to explain it to most of the others and they easily implemented my strategy.

My point is that computer science is not the same as other classes. Discussing the problem often means giving someone the method that they could not come up with on their own. They can implement it, but thats not the point of the class.

No insightful comments from me (1)

CitznFish (222446) | about 12 years ago | (#3354929)

I am just disgusted in Georgia Tech's 'dis-honor code'. Ever hear of TEAMWORK? This is how business run and it better be an environment students are familiar with. i doubt that's the case with G. Tech..

My college computer experience (4, Funny)

totallygeek (263191) | about 12 years ago | (#3354933)

When I was at Texas A&M [tamu.edu] , I was a physics major. To have a better time in college, and because I like to learn, I took many computer programming courses.


For the bonehead award, Programming I was basically just Pascal on personal computers. Well, I had gotten into "trouble" for not commenting my source code. So, for my final program, I wrote it in Pascal, compiled, disassembled, rewrote the assembler code to Pascal inline assembly statements, and lined up the original Pascal as the assembly inline comments. My prof wasn't amused.


But, on the other end, I took another programming course which was supposed to be COBOL, c, and FORTRAN. The first day, the prof said that we will not need our FORTRAN book and would not write any FORTRAN programs or be tested on FORTRAN. However, we were instructed to learn FORTRAN on our own. Well, almost no one kept their FORTRAN book or even bothered learning FORTRAN. I was lucky enough to have already learned most FORTRAN working on physics stuff. Our final program was to write a source converter in c to convert FORTRAN programs to c. Not only did we have to know FORTRAN, but we had to KNOW FORTRAN!

GT CS has always been psycho (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#3354936)

I graduated from Tech in 2001 and I can assure you that the CS program sucks in many ways. The head of the department isn't even a programmer, he has a degree in psychology. The philosophy of the CS department is to bury the students under tons of work and see who can keep up the outrageous workload. Quality takes a distant backseat to quantity. They also have a stange obsession with cheating. Their "cheating detector" program they use is infamous for false positives, yet the faculty continues to swear by it. If you go to Tech, which is a great school overall, I'd strongly recommend majoring in computer engineering or MIS.
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