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Dataplay Ready to Launch

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the impact-crater dept.

Music 345

geophile writes "Let's see. This is a CD-like, CD-incompatible storage medium with lower storage capacity than a CD; copying, which is supported by CDs and permitted by fair-use laws is not possible; and it's more expensive than a CD. Read about this great idea here." We've done a couple of stories on the Dataplay discs; this one discusses the heavy content controls built-in. MSNBC had an article on Dataplay a few weeks ago that mentions an "education process" needed to get people to re-buy all their old music in a new format.

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Words from a Feminist, Part I (-1)

Mao Zedong (467890) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380145)

I don't trust men.
I never have and never will.
They consult one authority before they act and that is their tiny little
prick head.

I married my little slave hubby not because he promised never to cheat on me
or leave me but because he backed it up with proof. Proof in the form of
staged photos, lover letters to imaginary gay lovers, and a video of him
doing disgusting fetish type activities. You know the typical Black-Mail
kind of stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I love my little hubbie bear and don't use this stuff
to cruelly "DOMINATE" him. We have a loving relationship where we are both
very happy and I have enjoyed have the finial word most of our 10 years
together, but now there is a problem. He has developed a roaming eye and
knows that since he "brings home the bacon" it would be a bad idea for me to
use my little stash of evidence against him. This stuff was fine as
newly-weds but now we have children and a home to upkeep. I would lose as
much as him if I exposed him. Even after a divorce , god forbid, I would
be better off to not expose him if expected child support and alimony. So
effectively I have lost control over his fidelity. We have talked about
all this and we think the best thing would be for me to get complete control
of his money so he would be financially dependent on me and receive an
allowance once a week.

But how can we accomplish this?

He receives a weekly pay check that is deposited into my account. How can
we get it set up so he will not be able to change his direct deposit to
another account or make sure that regardless of how much money he gets I
have complete control over it. Remember he wants this as well. We both
just want to make sure he is never tempted to stray or leave and that would
be hard to do with no money.

Thanks!

Re:Words from a Feminist, Part I (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380191)

It's an institute you can't disparage! This, I tell you brother, you can't have one without the other.

Things To Do Today (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380297)

1. Shoplift jumbo magic marker

2. Draw graffiti tag on walls

Re:Words from a Feminist, Part I (-1)

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (537317) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380314)

He just want you to cook him a nice meal when he gets back from work. Your job is to raise the kids and clean the house. Don't try to act smart, mind you, you are his sex slave. Now, shut the fuck up, and bring him another beer, bitch!

This will be a good test... (3, Interesting)

rosewood (99925) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380150)

Quite often when we see things like this, the general consensous is "If it sucks this bad and is this stupid, people will not buy it." Well, I do not have that much faith in the masses. All it takes is one exclusive block-buster album to come out on this format for all the sheep to buy and VOILA, TNBT. So, this will be a good test so see if the public can withstand the crap...

PS- Are there any plus sides??

Re:This will be a good test... (5, Insightful)

Mr.Spaz (468833) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380200)

I'm not that fast to react anymore. Everytime I see a scheme like this come along, I point to DIVX. Those "in the know" successfully killed that format with an enduring information campaign that didn't let up until DIVX was out the window. It was to the point that people looking at DIVX players at Circuit City were approached by strangers who would inform them exactly what buying DIVX was going to mean. I think that in any similar situation where a less restrictive, less costly, and less burdensome alternative exists, the same kind of results can be had by simply informing the sheep that the $16 disc in their hand will actually cost $16+$8+$13, etc. if they want to access everything listed on the cover. Oh, play on your computer? No, it won't do that. Put the music on CD to listen to in the car? Oh, sorry, not allowed. Etcetera ad nauseum...

And you can be sure that another plan behind this system is going to be "disc expiration." 20 plays and then another $20 to get the thing going again, or what have you. If I can, I'll be steering people away from the format. I'm sure most slashdotters will too.

Which is why it won't happen... (2)

Kjella (173770) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380232)

Make a blockbuster hit. 90% of fanbase has no compatible player. Do we a) forsake all that profit or b) release the CD? The music industry don't have all that much of a community feeling, if they can make cash, they will.

Kjella

Re:This will be a good test... (1)

packeteer (566398) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380244)

well the article said that it can "store 5 hours of cd quality music" WTF WTF WTF I WANNA SCREAM uhm anyway... wtf r they talking about... 500 megabytes for 5 hours of cd quality music... BS im soryr but this pisses me off... it a direct lie... if they are talking about mp3 then they are wrong... dead wrong... DEAD PRODUCT wrong... mp3!=cd quality... i cant stand to listen to low bitrate mp3... the only time i can stand is when its over 256k bitrate... i like my music... dont butcher the beatles with artifacts and a digitized sound... this really mkaes me very mad... as it is now i have a cd player that can play mp3 (& wma but who cares) off of a cd... its very cheap and i get 700 megs of mp3 or i can mix in some wavs too... why would anyone want this when they can burn 700 megs of their own stuff.... man sometimes i just wanna scream

Re:This will be a good test... (2, Interesting)

DahGhostfacedFiddlah (470393) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380296)

Keep in mind that CDs are stored in raw format. I'm sure that with non-lossy compression, you could get it down to at least 50% of it's original size. With 256, or even 512bit mp3s, you'd be able to compress 5 CDs to 500Megs. It's a definite skewage of results by implying that there's 5 times the space of a CD, but not that bad when you consider that your average CD can probably store 5-10 Cd-quality albums.

Re:This will be a good test... (2, Interesting)

andyh1978 (173377) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380409)

I'm sure that with non-lossy compression, you could get it down to at least 50% of it's original size.
Well, just gave that a go; used cdparanoia to read a track off a cd, and ran it through bzip2.

$ bzip2 -9 -v cdda.wav
cdda.wav: 1.096:1, 7.298 bits/byte, 8.78% saved, 51720524 in, 47181723 out.


Only 8.78% saved; not going to get you 5 CDs on a disc there. However, from the site:
But because the discs pack data densely and the music is compressed using methods similar to that of MP3 software, each can contain up to five albums of music.
So it is lossy compression, unsurprisingly.

Re:This will be a good test... (2, Funny)

Glytch (4881) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380302)

Wow. You're the most coherent anti-compression audiophile I've ever seen. Congratulations.

Klerck is out to lunch (-1)

Mao Zedong (467890) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380155)


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This could be good. (1)

rabidphilosophy (569888) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380159)

I would much rather see someone release this, fail horribly (which I think it will) and tarnish the idea, then someone doing it right.

Re:This could be good. (2)

ryants (310088) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380174)

tarnish the idea
The idea, end-to-end control of what you see, read, and hear, and how you pay for it, will never die so long as the corrupt copyright/patent system that exists today and the governments/corporations that support them exist.

DivX failed. If this one fails, they will surely try, try again, so long as there are pennies to be squeezed and rights and freedoms to be bought.

Bah (4, Interesting)

dieMSdie (24109) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380162)

I quit buying CDs years ago due to the RIAA's greedy, grasping control-freak mentality. It will be a cold day in hell before I shell out a single cent to them for some broken incompatible crap like this.

These people live in their own little world - with only the MPAA and some other like-minded morons as neighbors. Small wonder they can get laws like the DMCA passed - Congress lives in the same world.

I just do not foresee people buying these things. Yes, the "public" can be incredibly stupid at times, but they do catch on, eventually, and I think the RIAA's game is up.

Re:Bah (2)

56ker (566853) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380190)

Thought Joe Public was sole on the idea of DVDs - after all they look like CDs, play CDs & have a higher capacity!

Re:Bah (2)

dzym (544085) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380228)

Except you can't fit a high quality movie onto a CD without significant compression (DivX ;) style, which VCD players can't support anyway). And that compression is quite noticeably lossy.

People buy DVDs to watch movies. Who the hell buys DVDs to listen to music?

Re:Bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380272)

People buy DVDs to watch movies. Who the hell buys DVDs to listen to music?

I for one, would. Imagine having all the recordings of an artist on a single DVD, instead of settling for a single CD greatest hits compilation.

The real reason you don't see this is that record companies could never put the equivalent of 3 or 4 CDs on a single DVD, and still charge the same price as the sum of the individual CDs. They would have to charge less, or nobody would buy it.

So, it'll never happen. But just because it won't, doesn't mean it shouldn't.

Re:Bah (2)

Monkelectric (546685) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380239)

people did buy dvd's -- but thats because dvd's were new and novel -- they rock VHS and people were hungry for that.

Dataplay is worse in every way then a CD. They are essentially trying to convince people to toss their equiptment for *no* benefit. Sony tried this with the minidisc all thru the 90's and failed. This will fare no better.

Re:Bah (1)

espressojim (224775) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380289)

MiniDisc format does have benefits, though I only see them in the portable models. Those benefits: Very small sized players that play for very long lengths of time on build in rechargable batteries. You can also carry around a large amount of music at a lower cost than mp3 players that are of a similar size.

Once someone gets the ipod to be PC compatable, I might be interested in changing formats. But then I have to trade up to a bigger, more expensive player that only has a 1/4 of the battery life.

Re:Bah (1)

KlomDark (6370) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380269)

I haven't actually heard one yet, but the 5.1 channel DVD Audio sounds very cool. Imagine some Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon or Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti remastered into 5.1!

That's something I could see myself buying, but these dumb little discs are totally uninteresting to me.

I'd like to hear the point of view of someone who'd rather have a bunch of these little discs instead of a 40+ gig portable MP3 player. (Seriously, I'd like to know (1) if anybody actually does and (2) if so, WHY?

Re:Bah (0)

nackrm (571581) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380326)

"...greedy , grasping control-freak mentality" is right.

"DataPlay users will be able to record directly from CDs they already own, but Quigley predicts those users will be a minority. Most people, he said, will go ahead and buy their favorites again in the new format."

They are obviously trying to take advatage of people that would't be able to make legal copies of what they already own. The music industry has been complaining about a decline in sales over the past year, but what industry hasn't also seen declines over the same period. Further more, many of the people who were originally introduced CD's now have most of their collection on them. That means they are no longer spending money on older CD's. It looks like that is where the music industry finds it life blood; not by being inovative, but figuring out how to resell the same thing you've already bought.

Re:Bah (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380377)

Yeah man fight the system! Be a rebel! Typical linux user's attitude. I can also safely assume the following:

  1. You are an atheist.

  2. You are a liberal, possibly an "independent".
    You do not use evil Microsoft products.
    You try at all times to be politically correct.

Re:Bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380412)

"Yeah man be a mindless cog in the system! Be a moron!": Typical lemming-like attitude. I can also safely assume the following:

You are a bible-thumper.
You are a proto-, neo-, or crypto-fascist, possibly a pedophile.
You revel in using Microslop crapware.
You try at all times to be a bigoted asshole.

Re:Bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380416)

Fuck you, you whining Catholic Democrat Microsoft faggot. Fucking hermaphrodite.

Re:Bah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380423)

yeah! what he said!

Well (1)

Veramocor (262800) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380167)

At least it looks like a CD, and I'm sure it smells like a cd, and probally if you lick it it will taste like a CD.

So its not all that big of a failure.

Re:Well (2, Funny)

suwain_2 (260792) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380227)

probally if you lick it it will taste like a CD.

As long as this tastes the same, I'll buy it!

Thief (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380271)

Does your tongue incorporate RIAA-approved DRM technology?

No?

Then keep your filthy tongue off of those Dataplay discs, pirate!!

Am I worried? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380169)

No.

People will henceforth start their whining of 'consumers are stupid' and 'they'll buy it because of the latest pop band!' crap.

Yeah. We've all seen that happen before.

Remember Divx. Remember the intelligence of consumers. They don't wish to be inconvenienced just because a bunch of geeks label something 'bad'. And I don't blame them.

But when corporations fsck them over? Yes, they tend to stand up to them.

ON behalf of consumers out there... (2)

El Camino SS (264212) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380173)


I'd just like to say good luck to the RIAA.

They're really going to need it... because this is truly a bankrupting idea. And after this crap doesn't fly, they'll be charging $30 a CD to recoup costs.

I am sure as hell not going to buy something that is going to get lost in the hole in my jeans pocket... or the dog can easily chwe up and eat.

clueless article (3, Interesting)

macpeep (36699) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380175)

So compact flash sucks too because it's more expensive than CD's and incompatible? Dataplay discs are VERY small. That's the whole point. They are intended for digital cameras, PDA's and similar small, battery driven devices. Not PC's. Not even laptops.

Instead of focusing on being funny when submitting the article, how about focusing on being clued in?

Re:clueless article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380360)


By the time this "new technology" rolls out, CF
will destroy it in every way: smaller, lighter,
holds more, AND unrestricted to boot.

Do these things have anything to offer at all?

Re:clueless article (2)

NMerriam (15122) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380389)

Dataplay discs are VERY small.

They're not any smaller than minidiscs, and they're a lot more fragile, a lot less flexible, a lot less powerful, more expensive, no better quality, and no longer recording time (oh, I meant to say NO recording time).

They are intended for digital cameras, PDA's and similar small, battery driven devices.

every 6-12 months you can buy a compactflash card with twice as much storage for the same price as before. Dataplay devices won't have 2 gig discs out in 18 months, but if you're using a compactflash camera/MP3 player, you'll probably be able to pick up a 2 gig CF card for $250.

as much as the general public likes convenience (which a fixed format offers), they're not going to be happy when their next-door neighbor has a 2 gig digital camera that shoots video and 5000x3000 pixel uncompressed stills, while their dataplay cameras are still stuck with low-res JPG because the format doesn't have any space.

Re:What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380396)

This can't be for digital cameras unless you buy a new one because you can't erase it and put new pictures on it. It would be like film again if they put this in a camera. On compact flash you can erase and put new info on it, not on this. Why would anyone use this in a camera?

But that's not what they are trying to do with it. (2)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380400)

I agree these might be an OK replacement for CF in general.

But the main focus for this thing is to sell music in a protected format. They want to produce DataPlay based music players, and get the public used to using this format. I think a measure of how well this technology might do is to see how many music players built with this storage medium support MP3's stored on the disc - my guess is few to none.

Furthermore, I'm not at all sure you'll see digital cameras that support this format. Why? Because you then limit yourself to this storage size, instead of being able to support 1GB+ CF storage. The cheapness of it might negate that effect though, and make some low-end cameras support this format... though you'd think a camera maker (and buyer!) would want to make suure the format wasn't going to die on the vine before they support it. But then again the resolutions cameras are going to quickly make this format too limiting.

To summarize, here's an argument for why it seems to me it's a format meant to push music. It seems to have too many drawbacks to really replace CF (limited device support and fixed size). SD already supports copyright protection controls, so they could have released music on that, but it would be too expensive. Thus, the only reason they are pushing this new format is because it's cheap enough to relase an album on. From that stream-of-thought you can then deduce the only reason this format is being pushed is to try and sell protected music in stores.

A last note - why I would pay CD prices for a lossy compressed version of a song is beyond me. I would wish them good luck, but frankly I hope it's a full-on DIVX syle failure that leads me to abandoning some other poor store (for the rest of my life I refuse to shop at Circuit City as a result of supporting DIVX).

Further note - if you (meaning: The Man [translation - companies developing this stuff]) bother to release a new compact storage format, please make sure first it can support DVD levels of storage so I can have a decent 10MP digital camera and store more than a few images in raw format.

Wait... (2, Insightful)

Vanders (110092) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380176)

The discs look like CDs an inch (2.5 centimeters) across and are housed in plastic cartridges.

I'm looking at my Sony Minidisc right now. The Dataplay people are joking. Right?

Re:Wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380249)

Sony minidiscs are still larger than the dataplay disk (about 4 times as large);

Re:Wait... (1)

Psx29 (538840) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380337)

Yeah, but the whole point of minidisc is that you can copy your own music onto it

Re:Wait... (1)

Anderlan (17286) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380341)

So, read the articles, right? ;p
The dataplay discs hold 500MB. I can't remember how much a minidisc was the last time I priced one, but I know it was high, and I realized it would never drop like such things are supposed to, because it's a format owned by Sony. Same reason I disdain memstick. These Dataplay disks are supposedly to be sold for $10-12.

If these can be used for purposes other than fair-use denying media consumption, more power to them. They're small, high density, and cheap. But they're not rewritable. Ok, I agree with you all, screw 'em ;p

Gee how to kill a format deader than a dodo (0, Redundant)

Moderation abuser (184013) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380185)

These guys are going to be a massive success.

Yah think? Bwhahahaha.

Re:Gee how to kill a format deader than a dodo (2)

osgeek (239988) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380221)

Make sure to get your vote cast for Dataplay at fuckedcompany.com [fuckedcompany.com] .

"Education Process" (3, Interesting)

rand.srand() (243903) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380194)

I believe this "education process" is misunderstood. What they're refering to is the executives figuring out that being able to control the market through physical media is obsolete. Try to force the market into a new format and you'll just push even more people to the black market.

The music industry's arrogance towards their own customers is incredible. Imagine if Microsoft, Oracle, Symantec, etc. all said that their programs will only install on new computers in MetaData format media and if you had legacy media you'd just have to buy it new. Or they told you they wouldn't honor upgrades unless you bought new licenses by a certain date (oops, beat me to that idea).

Re:"Education Process" (2)

david duncan scott (206421) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380368)

So you've got Win XP on 5-1/4" disks?

How long ? (1)

1stflight (48795) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380196)

How long till we see this as 2002's dumbest business idea...

Re:How long ? (4, Informative)

Dunkalis (566394) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380283)

The RIAA thinks this is going to stop piracy? Nobody is going to go out and buy a Dataplay player and have to buy ALL their music over again. The few people that buy this are going to be geeks that hack them and turn them into really high-capacity floppy drives. The RIAA will then think that nobody is buying this crap since they would think the people who do are putting the music on the net. Its going go be awhile until something replaces the Audio-CD as the most ubiquitous format.

Of course, they can simply stop producing CDs to make people convert. Their music they already own, that is.

The RIAA is shooting themselves in the foot (again). Why can't they realize the Internet is THEIR future?

Re:How long ? (1)

1stflight (48795) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380354)

Oh the better part from the article, you have to pay 280+ for the players. I can't imagine the day when I'd pay someone to take my right to choose away.

Here we go again.. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380204)

I was under the impression that once you owned the rights to the music, you wouldn't have to pay royalties again.

Why can't you just buy music in the new format for $1 a disc, if you already own the music?

eh.. I already know the answer why do I bother
And how long will it be before someone cracks all the "hidden" music on the disks?

inacuracies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380207)

actually according to the article the blank tracks is 650MB the filled tracks is supposed to hold 5 albums compressed. But I really don't see how this is going to institute copy protection. Even if its out put is encoded, it doesn't keep someone from copying the encoded file and then "trick" their own player to play the copied encoded file.

ick, compression (3, Interesting)

x102output (536049) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380226)

a compression like MP3? thats just enough for me NOT to adopt this format. If they use a lossy format, forget it. I like raw PCM used on CD's, or a codec that reconstructs it (like SHN audio). lossy formats suffice for pirating..but do you really want your $18 you shell out going for something that sounds just as good as a mp3 rip of it?

I'm all for this wonderful innovation (3, Funny)

millisa (151093) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380233)

Especially if AOL finds some way to put media on them. I want new free stuff to put in the microwave . . .

Re:I'm all for this wonderful innovation (1)

EddydaSquige (552178) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380273)

It would be fun to make some sort of launcher (like those disk guns we all had as kids) and hold contests to see who could shoot them the furthest.

A mere speedbump (2, Interesting)

UTPinky (472296) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380238)

While I've pretty much stopped buying cds from music row years ago, and now only purchase cd's from local artists (God, I love Austin), who actually see the profits from the cds, I still don't see how its security methods, are gonna prevent me from hooking it (if it actually catches on) to my receiver w/ digital output, and hooking that up to my sound card w/ digital input... How is this keeping me from copying the audio?

Re:A mere speedbump (1)

Mr.Spaz (468833) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380252)

It's not. This was the reason that they came up with those "decrypting speakers" a little while ago that could receive digitally encrypted audio data and decrypt it in the unit to produce sound.

Re:A mere speedbump (1)

UTPinky (472296) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380267)

I know, it was meant as sarcasm... but thanks for the extra tidbit...

Again... (1)

u01000101 (574295) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380242)

From the article:
On Tuesday, a music industry group said worldwide sales of CDs fell 5 percent last year, the first drop ever. The group attributed it to the rise of Internet services like Napster, which distribute music copied from CDs.

As long as such CNN and the other mainstream media (ok, except M$NBC because of the "M$") - present things this way, the myth of "mp3 piracy" will live on; like the CD being "new media" and charged as such even as we speak (in spite of being in use more than the average age of slashdot users) - they can blame their losses on mp3's forever.

I guess this new format will die soon... but is it wishfull thinking on my side?

This sounds like an ignorant joke (1)

KlomDark (6370) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380243)

" Portability and price will draw in the 18-34 age group first, predicts Bob Higgins, chairman and CEO of Albany, N.Y.-based Trans World Entertainment. The company invested in DataPlay last year, and Higgins sits on its board of directors.

"I just know by being in the business, there's definitely a need for a portable format," he said. "Portable CD players are too big and too bulky."


OK, in my opinion, I wouldn't put much trust in any of this guys "predictions". The younger market is already solidly behind MP3, they aren't going to go for this any more than people went for the MiniDiscs. MP3 players are both cheaper, and I'd say more portable, especially since you don't have to carry around discs for them. I still am not convinced on the lame memory chip-based (128 megs of flash memory is not enough for a long outing, at least not for me) ones, but the ones with actual multi-gig hard drives are a great idea. And a US Quarter sized disc? No way, too small, imagine those getting dropped on the floor of your car - you probably wouldn't even notice it at first, and then it'd get stepped on and smashed, or find it's way to some inaccessible crevice in your car.

Bad idea - think of all the coins you find when you life up your couch cushion.

And what, they're going to shrink the cover art even more? That's the one thing I don't like about CDs as compared to vinyl records - the cover art is too small, it's just not as asthetically pleasing as the good old 12"x12" (I think) album covers. And you never see any way cool covers with moving parts and spinners like on the old Led Zeppelin albums. Sucks!

Just read . . . (0)

KDENCE (558103) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380245)

Just read about this and I am excited about it, however I wish that it would be a little more versatile straight out. My other problem is that this will make us go out and buy new stuff, have to replace my car stereo, home stereo, and who knows what else. I guess besides the money that needs to be spent, it is also about the rack space in my entertainment center.

Well' I guees we will just have to see if it sticks or not.

I do suggest you read the article, pretty interesting!

"Entertain the Brutes"

What a load of.. (2, Insightful)

Chicane-UK (455253) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380250)

..rubbish.

This new product is a lame attempt to try and quash the 'music copying' market - amusingly, I couldnt have imagined anyone else to be the 'flagship' artist to launch this product than Britney Spears.. gawd knows I am sick of seeing her on Pepsi Commercials, and now she goes and sells out on somthing like this too.

It sure as hell doesnt make me want to buy one - if I was to buy another portable media player (seeing as I have a car, I sold my MiniDisc player a while back) it would either be one of Sonys new NetMD MiniDisc players, or somthing groovy like an iPod.

Re:What a load of.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380278)

Indeed, frankly I feel insulted by this product and the record companies... are they trying to insinuate that I want to even copy Britney Spear's "music"? What crack on they on, and they're trying to work out why their sales are down? I would listen to Britney even if they paid me.

Re:What a load of.. (1)

Mr.Spaz (468833) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380285)

Britney Spears "sell out?" She was never "in" to be able to sell out! A purely commercial construct is Britney. Manufactured under strict quality controls from the ground up according to exacting formulas developed by industry professionals. If you think I'm kidding, I'm not; there was (is?) actually a "songwriting guidebook" at Transcontinental Media when they were in business. It was quite literally a set of rules for generating music and lyrics for the boy/girl groups that they managed. Ugh! Pure tripe!

Even more limited than MD... and that failed. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380253)

At least MiniDisc's are rewritable and if their MD-Data drives didn't cost so much it may have taken over from the humble floppy back when it was released (well before CDRW, or Zip), however in today's market something that is even more limited than MD simply doesn't stand a chance.

DataPlay is essentially a small CDR then, but you can already buy small 8cm CDR's [cdfreaks.com] for under $1, burn your own MP3's onto them (i.e. pick your own bitrate and selection) and play them on things like the eXpanium [philips.com] , all less money, more control and higher quality than DataPlay.

Record companies should concentrate on delivering good music (that's why record sales are 5% up in the UK) on CD and then leave it upto the consumer whether they want to transfer it to a handheld player, car etc, on whatever format they desire.

What ever happened to all the engineers in terms of quality, everything released is "near CD Quality" why not go further? It's ridiculous today's technology has to claim to be "near" a technology that was released 20 years ago, if only SACD takes of, even then your fair-use rights have been taken away from your, DVD-Audio offers multichannel capability but they use AC3 compression :/

Re:Even more limited than MD... and that failed. (2)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380299)

MD-data failed because sony killed it.
Not because it cost too much.

Even years later with 128MB zip disks.... MD-Data would still have been a better option had the drives been available. Even TODAY they would be a great option.

Re:Even more limited than MD... and that failed. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380339)

Actually, Sony killed it by making it cost too much. It was miles ahead of Zip, and that came about 5 years later than MD.

Last post before the BlackOut (1, Offtopic)

n3m6 (101260) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380257)

Last POST!!!

w00t!!!

That's good! That's bad! (3, Funny)

jonesvery (121897) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380262)

From the article:

The discs will cost about $16 when they are released in stores in early June, with one album of music ready to play. But because the discs pack data densely and the music is compressed using methods similar to that of MP3 software, each can contain up to five albums of music.

Some music companies will release the discs with hidden extra albums, which can be activated by entering codes bought at their Web sites for $8 to $13.

The extra disc space can contain videos and lyrics, accessed by connecting a Dataplay player to a computer. When connected, a user can also store data on the discs -- 250 megabytes on each side, for a total slightly less than the 650 megabytes that fit on a CD.

Data can only be written to the discs, not erased.

That's Good:
Hey! There's a "secret album" on this disc, and I only have to pay 50-80% of what it would cost to buy that album by itself.
That's Bad:
Hey! All of the "secret albums" are third-rate crap that the record company didn't think they'd be able to sell as standalong albums.

That's Good:
Wow! I can store my own data on the 80% of the storage capacity that's just going to waste.
That's Bad:
Wow! The record company put three crap "secret albums" on this disc...but I still have 20% of the storage capacity for my own stuff.

That's Good:
Cool! I'll put this album that I haven't listened to yet on the free 20% of this disc, so that I can check it out on my way to school.
That's Bad:
Cool! There's one good song on this album, and the rest of it sucks. I guess I'll just listen to the good song a lot, since I can't delete this album from the disc.

Idiot (3, Informative)

Reality Master 101 (179095) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380265)

What the submitter fails to mention in all that rhetoric is that these disks are the size of a US quarter, which I find pretty interesting.

All the other crap he spewed may or may not be true. It's hard to tell when it's obvious that he's biased against the device and fails to mention the positive points.

In short, once again the Slashdot editors don't bother to do any editing.

Re:Idiot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380294)

Yeah... but so what? MD's were small, but didn't offer any more run time of quality relative to a CD, it's small and has a protective cover, big woo.

I didn't buy MD equipment until they were remarketed as a replacement for the cassette back in 1998, the media is cheap and the players are small but they're eclipsed by the iPod's etc of this world. However I've never bough a prerecorded MD in my life, why pay the same or even more in some circumstances for an MD when I can just buy the higher quality CD and edit a copy to an MD myself? Same goes for this DataPlay crap, it's no more innovative than a 8cm CDR containing MP3/AAC tracks, except it costs 10 more and is 10 times more restrictive.

Re:Idiot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380382)


Why is the size interesting? Memory chips are that
size already. By the time this thing rolls out,
they'll have higher capacity, too. And they
don't skip.

What is it you think may or may not be true? That
they're copy protected? Read the article, they are.

My quarters are too small! (0)

AltaMannen (568693) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380392)

Looking at the pictures with the minidisc and comparing a quarter to a CD, I've come to realise my quarters are the wrong size. Is there an authority I should report my obviously counterfeit quarters to? Can I still play arcade games with the new quarters? If I buy music on the quarter sized discs, can I trick an arcade game to accept it?

CNN's bias (4, Insightful)

quantaman (517394) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380270)

And many consumers will resist the Dataplay format precisely because of the copyright protection that makes it so attractive to music labels.

On Tuesday, a music industry group said worldwide sales of CDs fell 5 percent last year, the first drop ever. The group attributed it to the rise of Internet services like Napster, which distribute music copied from CDs.

Nice how they phrased those. The closest they came to adressing the fair use side of the debate is.

"What the record labels like about Dataplay is that it's a format they can control," says analyst Phil Leigh at Raymond James Financial. "They would probably like to see all CDs go the way of the Dataplay."

It's good to know where CNN stands is this debate by totally misrepresenting and marginalizing those against this new technology. Nice to hear the only people who won't like it are the ones who want to circumvent the copyrite rather than people who want their fair use rights. Another interesting thing I found.

Some music companies will release the discs with hidden extra albums, which can be activated by entering codes bought at their Web sites for $8 to $13.

So we will be paying for the music twice? I can't really see this being useful for preventing copying, I can only see them implementing it 2 ways. They could have it go on a specific player or they could write it onto the disk itself. If it goes on a specific player you could just distribute that code with the copied disk. If they have the player connect to the internet to authenticate that it's the only one than it could be done but your're going to get a HUGE backlash if you could only play it on one player (I hope the public aren't that much of sheep). The option of writing it onto the disks itself is equally useless because there is nothing to stop you from giving the person the code with the burned disk or even buring it with the code on it. One way or another people will get around the protection. The only possible reason I can see for the code is so you can have disks possibly expire or do something else so they can have more control over the copy and gouge more money out of the consumer.

Re:CNN's bias (2, Offtopic)

dangermouse (2242) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380325)

Okay, let's go over this again, and see if we can find some bias on CNN's part:

And many consumers will resist the Dataplay format precisely because of the copyright protection that makes it so attractive to music labels.

This is true. The copyright protection measures are exactly why you don't like the Dataplay format, and exactly why the labels do. CNN does not point out that the copyright protection measures are overreaching in their scope, but that's opinion, and to do so would be to reveal a bias against Dataplay.

On Tuesday, a music industry group said worldwide sales of CDs fell 5 percent last year, the first drop ever. The group attributed it to the rise of Internet services like Napster, which distribute music copied from CDs.

This is a direct citation of a viewpoint presented by a third party, and is clearly indicated as such. CNN is making no comment on the validity of the statement, they are simply conveying the expressed viewpoint of a party to the controversy.

You say:

It's good to know where CNN stands is this debate by totally misrepresenting and marginalizing those against this new technology. Nice to hear the only people who won't like it are the ones who want to circumvent the copyrite rather than people who want their fair use rights.
There is nothing at all in the text you quoted to indicate any representation of those against the new technology, much less a misrepresentation and marginalization.

You have to watch for bias in the media, especially when it comes to cases involving parent companies of the reporting agency, but I'm afraid you've completely fabricated a bias against your viewpoint out of the lack of a bias for your viewpoint.

OK, Folks... (3, Funny)

Steve B (42864) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380276)

...how many "er, do you have this album on a normal CD?" questions can we throw (per salesclerk, per day)?

Re:OK, Folks... (1)

WetCat (558132) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380417)

Nah, it simply doesn't work...
The question "Can I have this album on tape instead of CD"
fails right now.
They salesclerks and management just do not care - they care only on grey masses, that will eat that they're fed...

Hah (1)

Morgahastu (522162) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380280)

I think its safe to asume within one week of these product being launched someone will have found a way to rip music from it.

Re:Hah (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380387)

Yeah... but who's interested in ripping shitilly compressed music and breaking the DMCA in the process when I can just go and buy the CD for less than $16 and perfectly legally rip and compress my own tracks using a good codec and bitrate?

To quote Geeks in Space (1)

spudwiser (124577) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380284)

OK guys, here's the clue. In order to be able to use them, we have to be able to decrypt them. If we can decrypt them, we can rip them.

Re:To quote Geeks in Space (-1)

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (537317) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380340)

Your post is unintelligible. Please speak in English next time.

Pass (2)

ZaneMcAuley (266747) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380292)

Ill stick with my music on my hard drive (MiniDisk for when im on the move). I have everything available on my computer (TV, Radio, Movies, Games, Music, Phone and more). I use MiniDisk for mobility. Why would I want a format that restricts this capability I have today.

Whatever copy protection it has is useless... (5, Insightful)

stienman (51024) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380300)

They are going to depend on the licensing scheme that won't allow players to emit the raw data - ie, no computer dataplay drives. They'll connect with USB and firewire, but part of their copy protection is no raw access to data, meaning it's hard to break the encryption.

However, that just means hackers get to go to a new level, modifying hardware, changing the code in the microcontrollers, etc.

I've no doubt that this will go the way of the "DVD Killer Divx", the minidisc, and the DAT (which is used professionally - dataplay won't even have that market).

All of which have Digital Restrictions Management built in. Of course the recording industry is going to go for it. Their SDMI initiative failed (and is still flopping about like a fish looking for water), and there is no way they can control any software/data based approach - too many fingers have to be in the pudding to make it work, and one of those fingers may leak - much like how the DVD decryption routines were discovered (which would have taken longer without the key, but would likely have still taken place)

So their only hope is
  1. Copyright/patent new format
  2. Copyright/patent hardware and algorithms
  3. Only license copyrights/patents to those willing to play ball their way
But the trick is then getting the consumers to pay for this new deal, which initially is going to be very expensive. Given the choice of buying an IPOD and this new disc device, which do you think the average joe is going to get? No little discs to lose, tons of space, no DRM (well, hacked away) , and personal organizer to boot.

They'd have to sell millions of these before the price comes down, and like the minidisc it ain't gonna happen.

I suspect that even when they only release a certian artist in that format the music will still be available (one person with player and a nice sound card, or simply ripped off the radio) in an adequate format. It will backfire, because music consumers are fickle and will simply stop listening to an artist if the entrance fee is $300, and the artists are less likely to play ball with companies that use them like pawns to bring about DRM.

It's a complicated chess game, and they are playing like they've lost their queen. They will fail if they don't fold the game and start with a completely different mindset.

So I'm not worried. Besides, CDs will likely be available cheaply for a long, long time.

-Adam

Too Bulky?! (3, Informative)

Erchamion (568996) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380303)

"I just know by being in the business, there's definitely a need for a portable format," he said. "Portable CD players are too big and too bulky." -- see article


*Portable CD Players are mostly used for plugging into your car or listening to in a bus.
*If you really want a cost-effective and small music player, try an MP3 player like the iPod (5GB, rw, $400). Why would a consumer by a read-only, write-protected, $270 dollar, 500Mb device when they could have so much more with an iPod or Rio...much less "bulky" than a CD player too. (provided, you do need a CPU for one, not hard to find someone with one though.)

Consumers *will* figure it out... (1)

thatguywhoiam (524290) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380324)


...when they start trying to feed all these little discs into a slot-loading notebook/imac.

[whirrrr. thupa thupa thupa thupa thupa GRRRRRRR]

Lower? Don't you mean higher? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380331)

>CD-incompatible storage medium with lower storage capacity than a CD

Oops..

Article says it holds five albums.... lower is higher.

Re:Lower? Don't you mean higher? (1)

Mr.Spaz (468833) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380363)

Yeah, but they specify "compressed." There's another line in there that specifically states that the capacity is a bit below standard CDs. Quote: "...for a total slightly less than the 650 megabytes that fit on a CD."

minidiscing (0)

vitalidea (571366) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380345)

yah know... the format is not the only important thing in making a purchase decision. The functionality of the portable device is also important.

One very cool thing about minidisc was the minidisc recorders. Digital input (fiber cable out and get master quality portable) -- admittably niche, but nice for building samples.

on another note, the copyright protection is being looked at in terms of music. How about software distributed on this medium? That would be interesting. Need a code to unlock the disc to install. As opposed to install and then unlock. (that could be interesting from M$ point of view)

But... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380348)

The feature that you cannot copy it is a major one! This will give it major support from the "content" industry.

Interesting Math (5, Interesting)

Posting=!Working (197779) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380355)

"The tiny discs will be able to store up to five hours of CD-quality music, one hour of video, 1,000 digital photos, one video game or 100 e-books -- or any combination, up to 500 megabytes of storage."

Let's see 80 minutes of CD-quality music now uses 700 MB of space. How exactly does 300 minutes of CD-quality music fit on 500 MB?

Blank discs, which can store up to 500 megabytes of data, will retail for between $10 and $12

Wow, much better than the $15 I'm paying for 50 700 MB CD's. A single 500 MB disk for the price of over 20 GB of blank CD's. Where do I get in line?

"I just know by being in the business, there's definitely a need for a portable format," Bob Higgins said. "Portable CD players are too big and too bulky."

Gee, if there were only widely available, simple to use, portable digital music storage and listening devices on the market right now.

just when i think i can't get any more pissed... (1)

TheCyko1 (568452) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380359)

i'm currently doing my core4 (reasearch paper)on the RIAA and why they are fighting mp3s. no matter where i look there's a new reason to hate the RIAA, i thought they'd already thought of every possible GOD DAMNED way to piss me off, then i get on slashdot to see some news that might spark my interenst and not piss me off, and THIS shows up! WTF! i'm already pissed off enough as it is trying to write this stupid paper about those silly asses, and then they come up with a plan that sounds supider than thier press releases! damnit! i think i popped an artery, i need some mountain dew...

"Imagin me naked, now imagin me quickly turning a corner" -Cyko

P.S. please dont moderate...

RE-education Process (1)

subhuman666 (574627) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380365)

"You WILL listen to Dataplay disks!" or maybe it will be more like: "2+2=DATAPLAY DISKS!!!!"

Mossbergt Article (5, Informative)

asv108 (141455) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380366)

Walt Mossberg has a good review of Dataplay [wsj.com] . He sights numerous reasons why it will fail, but his main objection is the rights managment, "feature." I submitted it a few days ago but:

* 2002-04-18 07:06:54 Copying Limits Stifle Innovation (articles,news) (rejected)

Where are the technical advisors? (2)

famazza (398147) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380369)

Take a look at me. I'm just a ridiculous nerd that can't barely know the visual difference between CD-R and CD-RW. Even though I know that this stupid idea won't be enough to avoid the so called digital piracy.

Let's see what they hope to get with this brand-new device:

  • Some music companies will release the discs with hidden extra albums, which can be activated by entering codes bought at their Web sites for $8 to $13.
May I know the jack-ass who have had this stupid idea? I give a week to a chinese hacker find a way to activate the entire disk without paying a nickel. And I want to see the dam DMCA look for the anonymous hacker who would do this!
  • When connected, a user can also store data on the discs -- 250 megabytes on each side, for a total slightly less than the 650 megabytes that fit on a CD.
How long will take until the technical advisors wonders what will happen after a regular nerd have digital access to the disc content? Of course it will try to put all the content to its HD and get rid of the dam disc.

Due to its small size it's obvious that it can become very popular, even replacing that old 3"1/2 floppies, and the 5"1/4 CDs. When this happen, GPLds hackers will want to access the disc and all its contents, then they can say goodbye to the copy protections and the cryptographic methods.

  • Dataplay incorporates safeguards to prevent songs sold on the discs from being copied to computers, a major plus for the music industry.
First of all, a major plus for the music industry should be quality, this shows that MPAA isn't worryied about the consumer, but about theirselves. Should we buy products from an industry that cares that much about the consumer? All they worry about is money, and not about the consumer's satisfaction

And the technical issue. As I said before, there's no way to avoid it to happen. It's digitaly recorded and there's a machine wich reads it, so it's completely possible to hack it and get it's digital content.

  • Sony introduced the compact, rewritable Minidisc in 1992, and while moderately popular in Japan and Europe, it has never caught on in the United States.
And how do they want to introduce a lower-quality product? Have their technical advisors realized that there already is a very good competitor? I wouldn't buy a new and inferior product if the better one is avaiable and already is spreaded in the market.
  • (under a picture)
  • South Korea's iRiver Inc. is expected to release a music player that uses the tiny Dataplay discs in June.
This shows that the format is about to born already dead, in South Korea there already is avaiable MDs and as stated before, they are much better. Even if it becomes a success, there's no DMCA in Korea, so we'll have a GPLd player even sooner.
  • Other partner companies plan to incorporate Dataplay discs in digital cameras and small handheld movie viewers, to be released later this year. A disc can store a two-hour movie at a low resolution suitable for small screens.
Finally something intelligent about this piece of shit. IMHO a standard "high-capacity" storage medium is needed in the market, each device has its own medium, and it can become a standard for the industry.

For all this that I have seen, and their technical advisors haven't, I think that they need new advisors. Maybe I'm one of the ellectibles, maybe everybody reading slashdot can be a good advisor for them, but first they need to find out this.

Walter Mossberg's Take in WSJ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380371)

Mossberg pans the Dataplay and one of the reasons he cites is that it deprives him of his rights as a consumer. He points out that the Dataplay only allows for five (5) copies to be made of the purchased music and says that while such a format may be good for the music industry, it's not a reason to switch from CDs.

I've noticed that Mossberg has recently (within the last year or two) made gentle but reasoned swipes against MS as well as heavy-handed digital rights management. Has anyone in the free (or open, if you prefer) software domain ever talked to him? I've never read or heard anything like that (say, Doc Searls or Bruce Perens mentioning "I chatted with Walter Mossberg...". I know that a lot of conservative and nontechnical people read Mossberg faithfully. It's encouraging to see that he seems to be for many of the same things.

Shortly after these are realeased.... (0, Redundant)

PimpNasty (529659) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380374)

somebody will reverse engineer this thing and find out that they used an ogg-vorbis based codec, only changing it slightly to make it incompatible with ogg players, AND not realesing the source code for the changes. Good way to counter piracy by violating the GPL and the rights of the Ogg dev crew.

As time goes by... (4, Interesting)

Phoenix (2762) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380388)

...I find that I'm really glad that I bought a MiniDisk player/recorder instead of the MP3 player.

Pros:
* Cheap disks - $2 each as opposed to $45 a compact flash card
* Quality player devices - can survive a trek into the off road bike trails with no skip
* Good sound reproduction - as good as 256bit MP3 (in my opinion)
* Holds 74 minutes - more if you downsample the music (built into most new recorders)
* using analog input - prevents any copy protection as it can record from the headphone-out jack
* Can erase and re-use disks, or delete an unwanted track
* Player costs the same as a MP3 player (32-64mb devices)

Cons:
* Did not catch on as well in the US as other standards (MP3, CD/CD-R)
* Can only record in real time (not too much of a problem as I will listen to a CD all the way the first time...takes no effort to record at the same time)

So the record companies can do whatever they want. We will find a way around whatever the @#$% they try to throw at us. They never seem to learn that there is ALWAYS a way to get around whatever they want to do to us. I found a way that works well for me, others will find thier own way.

Nero often is described as playing the violin as Rome burned. When the RIAA burns, I'll be playing the bagpipes

Phoenix

Cost vs COST (2)

freeweed (309734) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380395)

So let me get this straight.. blank DataPlay discs are going to be about $10-$12. Discs with an album on them are going to sell for $16. Ok, by those numbers it's $4-$6 that the record company makes off each one.

So when mass production allows DataPlay discs to be produced for 25 cents a piece, we should be able to buy pre-recorded ones for $5?

(yes, I do realize this has no hope in hell of happening. but the question does need to be raised)

Fair Use (3, Interesting)

THB (61664) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380399)

There seems to be some misconceptions about fair use around here. In the US and most other western countries, you have the legal right to copy portions of copywrited work for certain purposes. Thats is, you have the right to photocopy portions of a book, or use part of a song in a presentation. I'm sure someone else could provide more information of the detail of how much.

However there is no right guaranteeing that you can use this, that is a copywrite holder has the right to try and prevent the fair use of his work, however the copywrite holder has no legal was to prevent fair use. Even the DMCA and the whateverthehellthehollingsbilliscalledtoday do not try and prevent fair use, but they make it harder to be able to use it 'fairly', while trying to prevent it being used unfairly.

This is very much like free speech, you have the right to say whatever you want, but no right to be heard (ie published).

Obviously fair use is in everyones best intrest, it can only help publicize work and it gives people the ability to use portions of it, but it is a casualty of trying to prevent non-fair use.

discs are dead (1)

j09824 (572485) | more than 11 years ago | (#3380408)

Portability and price will draw in the 18-34 age group first, predicts Bob Higgins, chairman and CEO of Albany, N.Y.-based Trans World Entertainment.

The last thing I want is a zillion coin-sized discs, each holding the tiny amount of 500Mbytes. A hard disk is much more convenient for the home stereo, as is a portable MP3 player for the car and running around. The ability to copy between them is essential.

This sounds like a bunch of clueless executives designing hardware that is of absolutely no appeal to people who actually listen to music.

Hello you guys out there: discs are dead. Give us music-on-demand for a reasonable price and with no technological copy restrictions and people will subscribe to your services for the convenience of it.

The sad thing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3380411)

Is this COULD be a really nifty format, if it had full R\W capacity and no hardware crippling. You could fit in your pocket more albums than the most advanced MP3 player can hold, and moreover, gosh darnit, tiny media formats are cute!
Downside, though, is that you'd suddenly be in danger of losing entire albums in your couch cushions.
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