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MS Exec Testifies In Favor of OS Manipulation

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the destroy-village-in-order-to-save dept.

Microsoft 823

Niscenus writes: "The NYTimes, where free registration is required, reports that a Microsoft VP, Christopher Jones, explains that Microsoft must be allowed to prevent competitors' programmes from being installed for the consumer's best interest. Most interesting quote: 'In his written testimony, Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate and even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows.' Any dualboot LiLo user who learned they can't defrag the hard way can understand this ..."

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823 comments

FRIST BOAST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422351)

how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH THE LINUX POST!!! F34R!! (-1)

egg troll (515396) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422366)

I work as a consultant for several fortune 500 companies, and I think I can shed a little light on the climate of the open source community at the moment. I believe that part of the reason that open source based startups are failing left and right is not an issue of marketing as it's commonly believed but more of an issue of the underlying technology.

I know that that's a strong statement to make, but I have evidence to back it up! At one of the major corps(5000+ employees) that I consult for, we wanted to integrate Linux into our server pool. The allure of not having to pay any restrictive licensing fees was too great to ignore. I reccomended the installation of several boxes running the new 2.4.9 kernel, and my hopes were high that it would perform up to snuff with the Windows 2k boxes which were(and still are!) doing an AMAZING job at their respective tasks of serving HTTP requests, DNS, and fileserving.

I consider myself to be very technically inclined having programmed in VB for the last 8 years doing kernel level programming. I don't believe in C programming because contrary to popular belief, VB can go just as low level as C and the newest VB compiler generates code that's every bit as fast. I took it upon myself to configure the system from scratch and even used an optimised version of gcc 3.1 to increase the execution speed of the binaries. I integrated the 3 machines I had configured into the server pool, and I'd have to say the results were less than impressive... We all know that linux isn't even close to being ready for the desktop, but I had heard that it was supposed to perform decently as a "server" based operating system. The 3 machines all went into swap immediately, and it was obvious that they weren't going to be able to handle the load in this "enterprise" environment. After running for less than 24 hours, 2 of them had experienced kernel panics caused by Bind and Apache crashing! Granted, Apache is a volunteer based project written by weekend hackers in their spare time while Microsft's IIS has an actual professional full fledged development team devoted to it. Not to mention the fact that the Linux kernel itself lacks any support for any type of journaled filesystem, memory protection, SMP support, etc, but I thought that since Linux is based on such "old" technology that it would run with some level of stability. After several days of this type of behaviour, we decided to reinstall windows 2k on the boxes to make sure it wasn't a hardware problem that was causing things to go wrong. The machines instantly shaped up and were seamlessly reintegrated into the server pool with just one Win2K machine doing more work than all 3 of the Linux boxes.

Needless to say, I won't be reccomending Linux/FSF to anymore of my clients. I'm dissappointed that they won't be able to leverege the free cost of Linux to their advantage, but in this case I suppose the old adage stands true that, "you get what you pay for." I would have also liked to have access to the source code of the applications that we're running on our mission critical systems; however, from the looks of it, the Microsoft "shared source" program seems to offer all of the same freedoms as the GPL.

As things stand now, I can understand using Linux in academia to compile simple "Hello World" style programs and learn C programming, but I'm afraid that for anything more than a hobby OS, Windows 98/NT/2K are your only choices.

thank you.

Re:FRIST BOAST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422385)

about *that* fucking much...

bye now!

Fuck M$ (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422357)

They go too far. Billg thinks he is God. More like the anti-christ. Fuck them. Burn in hell. Or something. Use Linux!

FIRST TOAST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422358)

When homo erectus dropped some bread into the fire.

Here comes my baby (-1)

Mao Zedong (467890) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422359)

In the midnight moonlight I'll be walking a long and lonely mile.
And every time I do, I keep seeing this picture of you.

Here's comes my baby, here she comes now,
And it comes as no surprise to me, with another guy.
Here's comes my baby, here she comes now,
Walking with a love, with a love that's all so fine,
Never could be mine, no matter how I try.

You never walk alone, and you're forever talking on the phone.
I've tried to call you names, but every time it comes out the same.

Here's comes my baby, here she comes now,
And it comes as no surprise to me, with another guy.
Here's comes my baby, here she comes now,
Walking with a love, with a love that's all so fine,
Never could be mine, no matter how I try.

I'm still waiting for your heart, cuz I'm sure that some day it's gonna start.
You'll be mine to hold each day, but 'til then this is all that I can say.

Here's comes my baby, here she comes now,
And it comes as no surprise to me, with another guy.
Here's comes my baby, here she comes now,
Walking with a love, with a love that's all so fine,
Never could be mine, no matter how I try.

But what effect will this cause related to (-1, Offtopic)

Phosphor3k (542747) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422360)

my anus expanding at a rate never before seen in the medical community?

Thirsty Roast!

Is it just me.. (2, Insightful)

Galahad2 (517736) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422362)

Is it just me, or does Microsoft seem really condescending all the time? I don't understand their PR policy of considering their users idiots.

...However appropiate that labeling may be. ;)

Re:Is it just me.. (0)

Cenam (567580) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422453)

because most people are idiots when it comes to computers, thats why microsoft is on top, they write software for the average person, but still make it so people who actually know wtf thier doing can change it to thier liking.

Re:Is it just me.. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422462)

Is it just me, or do Lunix users seem really condescending all the time? I don't understand their PR policy of treating people who try to switch to Lunix idiots.

...However appropiate that labeling may be. ;)

Re:Is it just me.. (5, Insightful)

quintessent (197518) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422474)

That's just it. How many of the 280 million people in the U.S. know, for example, what a kernel is? I don't know if it's fair to equate "computer illiterate" with "idiot".

However, many of these novices end up purchasing new computers and hoping they can learn something without breaking the thing. You can imagine a call to Windows tech support from someone using Windows that has had the Start button removed.

Dual boot could be a problem depending on how it's done. If there was a giant Windows logo on the front of the box, but it booted into Linux by default, then you could have some confused users.

Re:Is it just me.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422479)

and it is completely appropriate...

windoze lusers: shit for brains.

An Idea for manipulation (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422363)

Try to make it SUCK LESS!

Obligatory Username / Password for NYTimes (0, Offtopic)

pknut (571294) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422364)

Username : qwerty1 Password: qwerty

Re:Obligatory Username / Password for NYTimes (0, Offtopic)

bahamat (187909) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422398)

Mod this man up!!!

Re:Obligatory Username / Password for NYTimes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422439)

WHY?? is it original? insightfull? is it even on topic??? why are you telling the moderators what to do?

Because (0, Offtopic)

Sergeant Beavis (558225) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422511)

Unlike an you, this guy was nice enough to make it easier for everyone on Slashdot to receive information.

Re:Obligatory Username / Password for NYTimes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422515)

thanks dude!

Well. That throws me off the fence. (4, Insightful)

CashCarSTAR (548853) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422367)

I was once in favour of some sort of moderate compromise. Allowing OEMs more leeway with what they can do with th OS and eliminating anti-competitive activies from MS at a sales level. (The "MS-tax", punishing alternative OS, etc.) After reading that, maybe we need to disband Microsoft, take the source code and OSS it. Not so much from a consumer standpoint, but if this the official MS line, then maybe MS shouldn't exist.

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (0, Troll)

zangdesign (462534) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422384)

Oh, so Microsoft is not allowed to make decisions on behalf of the users, but the open source community is?

Give me a break.

This is a common practice on all operating systems and in all software, whether you like it or not.

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (0)

weeerdo (267629) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422418)

Zangdesign, please give us some examples.

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (0)

Cenam (567580) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422473)

lets see, if you look at any os that actually sells, or software there sells for that matter, its there. 3dsm - lets people customize everything not essential to what it was designed to do, windows - lets people do the same thing(hell if you really wanna get rid of the start button write your own damned taskbar and mod the registry so it starts it up and not the real thing), games let you customize maps and charactors, when it dosn't interfere with the overall gameplay. every piece of good software i have ever seen does this, the idea most of the open source community takes towards features and making the end user put them in is just plain idiotic, since most users couldn't make a html page that says hi.

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422463)

Th OSS community is the users. or are you yet anouther parisite who wants things made exactly to their specications without asking for a thing?

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (1)

mrjohnson (538567) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422468)

umm... the Open Source community pretty much *is* the users.

it's different when m$ chooses software for their users than when the users choose it themselves.

actually, that's how it's supposed to work.

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (5, Insightful)

dalassa (204012) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422388)

It is somewhat akin to saying a GE refigerator can prevent a non-GE toaster in the same house to protect the homeowner. People are losing sight that a computer is a tool on which programs are loaded. No where does it say that one appliance should dictact your other appliances, nor should one piece of software dictate what other software can run.

Re:Well. That throws me off the fence. (3, Funny)

bman08 (239376) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422491)

I learned "the hard way" that I can't have my toaster, fridge, washing machine and microwave on the same circuit. If only maytag could have been there to stop me.

and some development news! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422368)

CNN, Redmond, WA: Today industry leader Microsoft (MST) admitted that it can create a scaled down version of it's popular .PENIS operating system. Said Chairman Bill Gates, " No one is denying the sheer power of our .PENIS, or it's scalability, what's at stake is how well .PENIS interacts with users. We expect our customers to be more than satisfied with it's speed and functionality." Industry pundits however, point to .PENIS's flagging market penetration, and lackluster home performance but are impressed at it's work functionality, especially with administrative professionals. ".PENIS has potential, but it just can't maintain it's momentum and there are disturbing reports of it being vulnerable to viruses," said a security expert. "Be careful who you let use your .PENIS."

Preventing Software Installation (1)

Copperhead (187748) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422369)

One way that I've found has been successful is introducing people to Linux is to show them how easy it is to dual-boot between Windows and Linux, and how easy it is to mount the Windows partition in Linux, thereby being able to access the data on both partitions from Linux.

According to this statement, it seems that Microsoft is even reserving the right to prevent people from doing that. Can you imagine Windows detecting changes in the Master Boot record, and not booting if grub or lilo is installed? Can you imagine Microsoft only "supporting" people who have only their operating system installed?

It's not too hard to imagine, of course...

Re:Preventing Software Installation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422431)

i am halfway convinced that ms gets most of their nefarious ideas right here reading slashdot.
they find out what open source people are most afraid of.

socialist, eurotrash, fucktards (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422370)

by Veronique de Rugy

Veronique de Rugy, who left France to live in America, is a fiscal policy analyst at the Cato Institute.

Should we laugh or should we cry? The first round of the French presidential elections are over. For months, media and polling agencies predicted that Jacques Chirac (the supposedly conservative president) would face Lionel Jospin (the socialist prime minister) in the runoff for the French presidency next month. Voters, however, decided otherwise. Now the so-called extreme rightist Jean-Marie Le Pen will face Jacques Chirac. Yes, that's correct, the socialists didn't even make it to the second round of the elections. But that does not mean that a free market and a free society will now reign in France under Chirac or Le Pen. For both men are protectionists and neo-socialists in their economic and public policies.

I am, of course, delighted to see the Socialist Party humiliated and yet also shocked by the outcome of the elections. Equally delightful, France's main parties of the left are now calling on voters to vote for President Jacques Chirac in the second round of the presidential elections. Can you imagine Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, or Ralph Nader begging Americans to vote for Bush or Reagan? Certainly this is good news.

But the bad news is that this vote does not signify support for free markets and small government. Neither candidate (Chirac or Le pen) is "libertarian," or even "conservative" in the American sense of the term. Le Pen used to pay lip service to markets. But now he is best known for being an extremely nationalistic opponent of globalization. He also has an unpleasant reputation for being racist. And he got a lot of attention a few years ago for calling the Nazi gas chambers "a detail in history."

On the other hand, Jacques Chirac is hopeless. He was elected seven years ago sounding like the Republicans who took over Congress in 1994. But whereas the GOP at least made some positive steps, Chirac took France further in the wrong direction. The result of his statist policies and large tax increases is an all-time high unemployment rate. That incompetence put the socialists and the communists back in the French Assembly less than 2 years after Chirac's victory in 1995. This time around, Chirac swears that things will be different and that he will cut taxes. He is, however, a bit less daring about reforming France's social security and her 35-hour work week. As he says, "we still have to do things a la Francaise."

If Chirac is elected he will continue to promote big government programs, more regulation, high taxes, and bad policies across the board. That's what he has done for 30 years. And there is no reason for him to do any differently now, especially since at 70 years old he doesn't have a political future. This is why the socialists and communists apparently are comfortable in calling on voters to elect Chirac. They know from experience that Chirac represents no danger to the core values of socialism, and, besides, he won't be around much longer.

In addition to the two candidates chosen-Chirac and Le Pen-the action of French voters shows that they don't really want less government or sound economic policies. If you add the socialist votes, the communist votes, and the other leftist votes you realize that nothing has changed and the French people still overwhelmingly vote on the left side of the spectrum. There was a free-market candidate, Alain Madelin. But his campaign to "give men back liberty and responsibility, give them the chance to blossom and succeed," did not succeed. The 55-year old leader of the Liberal Democracy Party got 3 percent of the votes. The fact that few people voted for him demonstrates that the French still do not get it.

The French have no understanding of why the economic situation there is so bad. They don't realize that big government is why France fell from the fifth richest country in Europe to the twelfth richest country - just ahead of socialist Greece. The French still worship the government.

Voting for Le Pen last week means that people prefer to forget that globalization and free trade have made France the world's sixth biggest foreign trader. Nonetheless, given unemployment and other problems, the French apparently would rather blame immigration instead of years of socialist policies for the economic situation. Will French voters ever learn the importance of freedom and responsibility? There is reason to doubt.

Random NYT Account Generator (4, Informative)

Stephen VanDahm (88206) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422371)

I assume that most of you already know about this, but in case you don't, here's a link to the Random NYTimes.com Registration Generator:

http://www.majcher.com/nytview.html

Take care,

Steve

Re:Random NYT Account Generator (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422466)

Haha! Excellent!

Re:Random NYT Account Generator (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422493)

Maybe it'd be a smart idea to, instead of putting up the "reg required" mention inside any article for the NYT, just to put up the link to the random registration generator. All problems solved, it would seem...

Or... (5, Informative)

Cyph (240321) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422499)

You can just use the random generator thing like this:

http://www.majcher.com/nytview.html?url=http://w ww . ytimes.com/2002/04/26/technology/26SOFT.html

Link to the NYTimes article in this submission. [majcher.com]

I've found that feature to be quite useful... maybe Slashdot should start posting all the NYTimes URLs with the registration generator. :D

Suprise, suprise (1)

bullett.net (568173) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422375)

The evidence is overwhelming. Over and over again they act and react very agressively and soley to their own benefit. Does anyone ever expect M$ to operate any differently?

last post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422376)

20
19
18....
heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
17...
3,2,1.

FREE REGISTRATION NOT... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422377)

required if you use this! [majcher.com] well, it's a nice little trick, anyway...

So what!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422381)

It's their OS. With Linux out there and other options (c'mon Apple, where's x86 OSX?), developers just need to develop for other platforms. A Windows platform with MS software? Well, it's the users choice then, isn't it.

I find it ironic that most of you probably don't use one single M$ product, yet are highly opinionated on this - it might actually be more promising if people listened to the users, not the hardware manufacturers, the OEMs, senators and congressmen, because that's just stupid.

If you don't like it, don't friggin' use it, but don't complain about others using it. Period.

Re:So what!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422422)

Oh you are soooooo wrong. Most of us are forced to use microsoft products and find them very shoddy products. We are intelligent, able computer users who know enough to know what is not working as it should or is capable of doing. We are experienced programmers and designers who know how to properly design a working software system. We know how to design quality, efficiency and effectiveness into a product. All the things we do not see in microsoft products. We make our comments from the basis of our skills and experience. We know there is a better way and are tired of people like you who are too afraid to admit you have no clue about good softwar.

Re:So what!? (2)

Junta (36770) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422457)

OSX on x86, nice dream... Apple finally has something that draws geeks and users from x86 to Apple hardwre, no way they are going to try to lose that... OSX wouldn't make them nearly as much money as their hardware does..

He runs linux! (0, Flamebait)

mjh (57755) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422383)

His website [christopherrjones.com] runs linux. According to netcraft. [netcraft.com]

Microsoft execs are arrogant, but, apparently they're not stupid enough to use windows for a web server!

not the same christopher jones (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422403)

If you look more closely at his website, this is a guy from Houston who runs a web hosting company.

Re:not the same christopher jones (2)

gehrehmee (16338) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422502)

Unfortunately, that is the Christopher Jones linked to in the actual article, as I'm sure you'll notice if you look at it again.

Re:He runs linux! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422414)

That might be relevant if that webpage belonged to Christopher Johnes, VP of Microsoft.

I have a very hard time believing this [christopherrjones.com] is the same guy.

Re:He runs linux! (2, Insightful)

xcomputer_man (513295) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422435)

Not only is the webserver Linux-based, but he is using PHP for his pages, not ASP.

Not only is he using PHP, but his forum [christopherrjones.com] is based on phpBB, an open source project (GASP).

LILO and Defrag (3, Informative)

user32.ExitWindowsEx (250475) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422386)

"Any dualboot LiLo user who learned they can't defrag the hard way can understand this ..."

Would someone explain to me what the issue he refers to is?
(Personally, I use System Commander 7 --- mouse-enabled boot loaders are a Good Thing (tm) )

Re:LILO and Defrag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422429)

doesn't matter what bootloader as long as microsoft doesn't think its theirs it assumes it's curropted.

Re:LILO and Defrag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422484)

Put LILO/GRUB/other on a floppy! Let Windows have the HDD MBR! Floppies take precedence.

Although that (detecting "funny" MBRs) might help fix one of Windows silliest problems--modern NT can be brought down by a 15-year-old DOS boot virus!

His Example Makes no Sense (2, Insightful)

geoffsmith (161376) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422389)

What do covering up the start button and installation have to do with one another? I really don't understand why you need to prevent installation just to avoid having the Start button obscured. Couldn't you just make the windows task bar Always-On-Top? Or just disallow anything to be drawn there while not in fullscreen mode?

His argument is pretty weak for the VP of a major corporation. Hopefully the court sees through it.

Websurfing done right! StumbleUpon [stumbleupon.com]

Re:His Example Makes no Sense (1)

codetalker (245862) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422460)

It sounds to me that he is worried that the start button will be obscured by some other sort of software, disabling it by disallowing users to access it. Similar to that program that drew over people's adds with those of a competitors. I think it was gator. However I find it adorable that Microsoft is so concerned that i may become "confused" and install something I want, which they may feel is trampling my rights as a consumer.

Re:His Example Makes no Sense (1)

JanusFury (452699) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422504)

Actually, I've seen many programs that completely and totally disable the start bar, replacing it with a 'better' application. They're a bitch to remove, too.

The argument is actually VERY valid. His argument about linux force-loading is also quite true - my experiences with lilo have been very bad - LiLo forced me to load Linux by default at startup, the only way to get it to load 98 was to type 'win' every time it started up. On the other hand, MS's boot loader is very flexible and doesn't force you to load anything. I'm sure I had an older version of lilo, but it still sucked.

No Registration Required (0, Offtopic)

Xuff (99173) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422390)

Just replace the "www" part of the URL with "archive" and you no longer need to register! Marvel!

Observe:

http://archive.nytimes.com/2002/04/26/technology/2 6SOFT.html [nytimes.com]

Enjoy.

Re:No Registration Required (-1)

Mao Zedong (467890) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422410)

Doesn't work, cupcake.

Also, (0, Offtopic)

ilyag (572316) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422391)

The US govenment announced that it is now allowed to pass any laws, as long as they are in the best interest of its citizens. Everyone is now very happy [everything2.com] (scroll down a bit).

Also, /. should shorten NYTimes, where free registration is required to NYTFRR in its stories. Less space wasted...

Re:Also, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422492)

Link to the write-up [everything2.com] , not the node.

BIll Gates has a wide monopoly (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422392)


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Congrats on making slashdot hard to read (1)

DumbSwede (521261) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422416)

Gets someone needs to code a defence against entries that make the html tables too wide.

Re:BIll Gates has a wide monopoly (0)

weeerdo (267629) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422446)

...and you have a narrow monopoly. Your post while very long, is the narrowest one on the page, dude. (at least thats how it looks with Galeon.) Try again.

Arrogance (4, Insightful)

Sean Clifford (322444) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422395)

Their arrogance never ceases to amaze me. It's pretty clear that massive companies are beyond the law. Enron, Microsoft, whoever - if you're big enough and rich enough you don't have to be bothered by pesky lawsuits. Sure, there needs to be some kind of proceeding to ensure that "fairness" is given lip-service.

I'm completely disgusted.

I don't know what to think. (4, Insightful)

mesozoic (134277) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422396)

In his written testimony, Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate and even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows.

Yeah, God forbid we should allow a competing operating system to start up instead of Windows. If this is the kind of stuff coming out of a Microsoft exec's mouth during trial, the states must be having a field day.

Now what's all this about the Start button? Maybe Microsoft has predicted that the next step for companies who are trying desperately to get into the desktop (Yahoo, etc.) to offer their own customized Start Menu replacements?

Re:I don't know what to think. (1)

dreamt (14798) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422447)

Are we sure that he wasn't testifying against Microsoft? I mean, come on, I don't think that the best anti-Microsoft witness could do any better in this case than that!

Let me see if I've got this straight (5, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422400)

"even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows"

This is part of their *defense* against punishment for illegally using monopolistic powers?

KFG

Microsoft is allowed to... (2)

3seas (184403) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422401)

Has anyone got a problem with MS running itself out of business?

I don't!!!!!

I have an idea... (1, Flamebait)

Ricky M. Waite (544756) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422405)

...that some of you may have thought of as well. I propose we stop caring about Microsoft and it's bullshit and instead work to make Linux (as a whole) better. Seriously. I've heard this before, and I've also heard people rally behind it - and yet I still see no action.

Instead of posting stories about Microsoft and its gayness, why don't we post stories about ~gasp~ Linux! I say we all ignore this thread and all others that may come our way that focus on Microsoft. Let us focus on the "Linux Community" - that will destroy Microsoft's monopoly far more efficiently than the judicial system ever dreamed of.

Re:I have an idea... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422475)

Have you ever seen the "Linux Community"? I think you're in for a nasty surprise.

Re:I have an idea... (5, Insightful)

Eloquence (144160) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422490)

The problem is that Linux cannot gain ground until PC makers can ship dual boot systems without being punished by Microsoft. People are not going to buy a Linux-only system, they want to try Linux, but also have a safe recourse in case it doesn't work for them. The OEM channel is Microsoft's strongest defense against any competing operating system.

You may say "But what if we make installation so easy that people can just do it later?" That's a flawed premise. Installation of Linux is already fairly easy, especially when compared with Windows' primitive text-based installer that can hardly do anything. Besides the fact that most people are never going to bother with the installation of a new OS, the problem is that people who convert to Linux will want to preserve their existing Windows systems. To do so, they will have to resize their existing partitions, which are increasingly in Microsoft's proprietary NTFS file system format. Resizing NTFS partitions, to my knowledge, is not possible with any Linux installer, and if it is made possible, MS can threaten to sue those who implement it over their NTFS patents (as they have done in the past), as well as alter the standard unpredictably. This makes it almost impossible to implement simple dual boot installation, unless you're willing to piggyback on NTFS and the Windows bootloader -- generally a bad idea for obvious reasons.

Simply put, if Microsoft keeps the OEM channel, gaining ground outside schools and developing countries will be hard.

Re:I have an idea... (1)

JanusFury (452699) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422517)

Unless Linux's setup has gotten astronomically better since Red Hat 5.0 (which, btw, was very easy to use), I don't see how it competes with Microsoft's 'inferior' setup. MS's setup is the best OS setup I have ever used, period. On the other hand, Red Hat's setup WAS easy to understand and use. However, it didn't work properly. I had to reboot 5 times, and spent an hour getting the damn thing to actually install. And after it did, it turned out it had installed the incorrect drivers. And don't get me wrong - I know what I'm doing. It just simply didn't work.

If Linux hopes to compete with Windows, they have to pay a LOT of attention to small details. Red Hat's setup showed a complete lack of attention to small details.

Re:I have an idea... (2, Insightful)

idontneedanickname (570477) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422509)

And what, except posting this comment r u doing?

--tzan

Re:I have an idea... (1)

halftrack (454203) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422513)

If this is what you want then figure out how you're going to break into the realm of Microsoft. Because Linux is there, my mother uses Linux and she doesn't know a thing about it, just that it beats her Windows system. Just wrap up a working system for people and they'll accept anything that doesn't interfere with their regular business. Todays KDE and Gnome are easy to use, everyone can figure out KMail, and Konq is as easy to use as My Computer. Just bullet-proof the system with a few restore scripts and don't give them their root password and everything will be fine. Just put Linux on a machine and sell it and see if they complain. (Put a Windows wallpaper on and see if they even notices the difference)

Gotta love this line ... (4, Interesting)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422407)

Mr. Jones said that since Internet Explorer was part of Windows, the settlement did not require Microsoft to let computer makers automatically turn on Netscape.


So, um ... isn't he kind of making the states' case for them?

The arrogance coming out of Redmond just gets more breathtaking by the day. They deny any wrongdoing while admitting to exactly the behavior which even the appeals court (which was so clearly biased in Microsoft's favor that it was almost embarrassing) found was illegal, and then insist that this behavior is not only legal but ethical and right. These people really do not live in the same world as the rest of us.

Re:Gotta love this line ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422459)

The arrogance coming out of Redmond just gets more breathtaking by the day.

well that's because they've won . get used to it.

lol (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422423)

'Competing' market sales brought in by Linux could ruin Microsoft!

The trouble is (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422424)

Most other windows software is a load of rubbish as well. The given example was the real player which if the worst written piece of software ever. It crashes, slows down, and even loads a program in the background to hog all your system resources. If this is the level of competition then I am not sure we would be better off without Microsoft.

cover the start button? (1)

Mecanico (222091) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422430)

"Start Hider
You can now hide your start menu from yourself by using our software. Forget about starting your applications cuz you'll not be able to do so. Just look at your beautiful wallpaper and an empty taskbar. That's stress relief!

Download Now"

This would be too dumb even for a newbie.

For those who wish not to register (-1, Redundant)

CmdrTaco (editor) (564483) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422432)

Executive Testifies Microsoft Must Be Able to Alter Windows

By AMY HARMON

ASHINGTON, April 25 -- A Microsoft executive told a federal judge today that the company should be allowed to make changes in its Windows operating system that impair the performance of other programs so long as the company believes it is acting in the best interest of Windows users.

Christopher Jones, a Microsoft vice president in charge of Windows, testified against penalties that a coalition of states want the court to impose on Microsoft to redress the company's antitrust violations. Among the states' proposals is a requirement that Microsoft refrain from interfering with the way rival software works on its operating system without "good cause."

Mr. Jones said the restriction would prevent Microsoft from improving Windows, because competitors would argue about that definition. Under questioning by a lawyer for the states, he defended one such instance -- integrating the Internet Explorer browser with Windows -- that became the basis for the government's long-running antitrust case against the company.

In November 1995, Mr. Jones wrote a memo to Microsoft's chairman, Bill Gates, that proposed binding Windows to Explorer "so that running any other browser is a jolting experience." A federal appeals court ruled that Microsoft's adoption of the plan was one of the illegal acts the company used to undermine the Netscape Navigator browser, a potential competitor.

But today, Mr. Jones told the states' lawyer, Kevin Hodges, that "the jolting experience would be for good cause if it happened because great innovations" in the user's overall use of Windows came about as a result.

The argument reflects the fundamental -- and still unresolved -- dispute that fueled the four-year antitrust proceeding. Microsoft has long maintained that to innovate it must have the freedom to design its software as it chooses. The government and nine of the original states that sued the company have agreed on a settlement that does not specifically address that question.

The nine states challenging the settlement argue that Microsoft should be required to produce a "modular" version of Windows that would enable computer makers to substitute programs produced by rival developers.

The proposed Justice Department settlement is also intended to give computer makers more freedom to feature rival software, like Real Network's Real Player. But the settlement would require only that Microsoft allow manufacturers to hide programs like Windows Media Player, rather than remove them.

Mr. Jones and Mr. Hodges sparred over a number of differences between the states' proposals and the more lenient settlement proposals. Ultimately, Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly of the Federal District Court will decide what restrictions to impose on Microsoft.

Mr. Jones acknowledged that under the settlement, Microsoft would still control which programs automatically open up when users turn on their machines. Computer makers could configure their machines to have them start a competitor's software, but only if Microsoft first opted to do the same with its own equivalent feature.

"So Microsoft retains the discretion to determine which get automatically launched?" Mr. Hodges asked. Mr. Jones replied, "Yes, we do."

Microsoft can also continue to require computer makers to display the icon for MSN Explorer, the browser for the Microsoft Network online service, Mr. Jones said.

Mr. Hodges said that under the settlement proposal, Microsoft would be allowed to activate Internet Explorer automatically while barring computer makers from substituting rival Netscape Navigator as the opening browser when the computer is turned on.

Mr. Jones said that since Internet Explorer was part of Windows, the settlement did not require Microsoft to let computer makers automatically turn on Netscape.

In his written testimony, Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate and even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows.

"You don't think people buy Windows because Microsoft has a monopoly?" Mr. Hodges asked.

Mr. Jones answered: "I don't think people buy Windows because Microsoft is a monopoly. I go to work every day to build great products that people are going to love."

The nine states challenging the settlement are California, Connecticut, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Utah and West Virginia. The District of Columbia is also supporting tougher remedies against Microsoft.

Please don't do this (1)

infonography (566403) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422506)

Reposting these stories just because some babies complain about an easy to fake registration is exposing you to major copyright hazards from a very deep pocketed opponent. Our friend pknut User #571294 Info [slashdot.org] has kindly provided a usable name/pass for this.

---

Friends don't let Friends be eaten by Grues

Different look and feel in windows itself... (3, Insightful)

sisukapalli1 (471175) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422434)

What about the brilliant innovation of Microsoft in changing the look and feel from Windows 2000 to Windows XP? I am reasonably computer literate, and use Gnome/KDE/CDE/W2k/W95, and still end up asking people, "How do you see the network neighbourhood?, What is the path for the desktop, and so on" (since I don't use it that frequently).

The exec's statement seems contradictory. Microsoft dumps tonnes of new things (innovations like clippy) in every version of product, and they are telling people that if the manufacturer wanted to add or remove a couple of icons, it will make the user confused?

The exec's reasoning that "there is a potential threat of dual booting" is absolutely ridiculous. Further, if the manufacturer wanted their users to run linux, they probably would be smart enough not to buy the XPensive bloatware for that PC to start with!

S

Ouch ... (5, Insightful)

halftrack (454203) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422442)

Stories like this confirms that Microsoft is more concerned about Windows the marketing strategy than Windows the operating system. Listen to this:

In his written testimony, Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate and even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows.

So he belives that computer manufaturers have to deliver their machines with Windows. That supplying it with Linux would violate some written standard. Windows may be a de facto standard, but come on ... PC manufacturers are not required to sell their computers with Windows and would not be hiding anything from the user by installing a competing operating system like Linux.

Last, but not least listen to this:

I go to work every day to build great products that people are going to love.

On what planet?

For the record: I'm not entirely anti-Microsoft, but I am anti-Windows. Microsoft has made some great stuff and should be admired for some of the things that they've achived. (IANEAMBIAAW)

Ouch ... Microsoft's racism (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422483)

What bothers me about Microsoft most is its blatant racism. When Bill Gates started a billion dollar college scholarship fund, he based it on skin color, not need, not achievment. It happens that I live in a state with a lot of poor people but the demographics are such most of them are the "wrong" skin color to benefit from Bill Gates's scholarship fund. Although I'm forced to pay a Microsoft tax, those young folks in my community who are deserving and in need of help will not get any from Microsoft--their skin is the "wrong" color. Instead, my Microsoft tax goes to subsidize those who were born with the "right" skin color. It is shocking and damnable.

Re:Ouch ... (1)

Ando[evilmedic] (199537) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422495)

" 'I go to work every day to build great products that people are going to love.'

On what planet?"


On this planet. I enjoy using WindowsXP. It is stable under proper circumstances, and does a lot of things well.

Re:Ouch ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422507)

Oh, you're so precious.

WORD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422443)

mod parent up, yo!11

Because, of course, competition is a bad thing! (2, Insightful)

Trepalium (109107) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422445)

It's really funny to read that article and see the lengths people will go to to justify their own position. Mr. Jones obviously sees no harm in Microsoft using their own OS to promote their other products, and to block out their competitors products. And why would he? His job is obviously secured by it -- he has no interest in other companies suceeding.

I don't think there's any easy way for competition to be encouraged, that will really hold Microsoft to any type of behaviour. Witness, for example, the way Microsoft used a license to cut the documention of CIFS off from their only real big competitor for that particular file system -- SAMBA. Because Samba is licensed under the GPL, they are unable to use the information contained within the document because of the license on it.

Argument is not in Consumers Best Interest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422448)

Microsoft's argument looks a lot like a "competition hurts consumers" argument.

That's a crock.

Dammit, let us CHOOSE what we want on our OS!

He's an MS VP!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422449)

We were expecting him to say what exactly, "I support running Linux on all your home and business PCs. In fact, I favour not installing Windows at all, it's a POS."

Come on, get real.

OS and look and feel (2)

jesterzog (189797) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422451)

Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate

This type of statement seems to be confusing the Windows operating system with the skin of the Windows operating system... at least that's probably the best name for it these days, because it's essentially the look and feel of the OS. How many people apart from sysadmins want to use Windows, or any OS, because of "good" security or "good" file formats, or "good" anything except ease and consistency of use?

Most people don't buy Windows because of the OS, they buy it for how it looks and works on top. If Microsoft were required to sell the OS separately from the skin, or at least let vendors replace the skin with a different one, I wouldn't personally mind as much about them requiring that people can't change their own marketed look and feel... To me that seems to be all that he's complaining about here.

As long as consumers can actually choose the look and feel they want in the first place, it would be much easier for others to compete than to compete with an entire operating system.

Re:OS and look and feel (4, Insightful)

Captn Pepe (139650) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422505)

How many people apart from sysadmins want to use Windows, or any OS, because of "good" security or "good" file formats, or "good" anything except ease and consistency of use?

Lots, actually. For many -- maybe even most -- people, one user interface is just as frustrating and complex as the next. To the extent that these people choose their OS at all, they choose to use the system that runs most of the applications they want to use. Until recently, this has by and large meant Windows since it had the best web browsers, Office, and the AOL client. Lately, an awful lot of these people have been walking into stores wanting an iMac because they saw a friend editing home videos or because that's what is advertized to work with the iPod.

Most of the people I work with use Linux or similar, and none of them are sysadmins. They use it because the two more popular desktop OSes make astoundingly pathetic scientific workstations.

Old FTC investigation (4, Informative)

Florian Weimer (88405) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422452)

There was an FTC investigation in the beginning of the 90s (I've got a (German) quote from a PC Week article on the 1991-05-20 - "Is Microsoft controlling the information flow between operating system and application developers, in order to make competitors stumble?"). IIRC, it finally resulted in some settlement (and the establishment of Chinese Walls inside Microsoft or something like that).

It seems that Microsoft wants lift these restrictions, after they have been found guilty of abusing a monopoly. Isn't this bizarre?

Microsoft VP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3422464)

Do these guys actually think this way?

I can't believe how blatantly arrogant M$ is (2)

aztektum (170569) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422465)

From the article:

"In his written testimony, Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, ...[or] even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows."


I realize the average user may not wish to use Linux or a diff. *Nix system, but for those that would this seems like a blatant attack on them.

Why do they keep getting away with this? Is everyone in Washington retarded? I don't mean to give retards a bad name, but come on?

Why didn't he just come out and say, "We want to tell you what you can put on your computer. We know what's best. Resistance is futile." Fess up you wussy.

Motivation? (0)

noone42 (546873) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422480)

I've gotta question how many computer makers are going to install software that covers up the start button or deliberately confuses users. Any company that did this would end up taking most of the heat for it, so it wouldn't reflect on Microsoft. This is just another ploy to try to postpone a court decision indefinitely.

Christopherrjones.com (4, Informative)

acm (107375) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422485)

The link in the article to christopherrjones.com is incorrect, in that that is *not* the webpage of the Microsoft VP.
My name is Christopher Ryan Jones. I currently live in Houston, TX. I am a student at North Harris College and the Owner of Think Computing. I guess that should do it for now. Look for more information coming as I have time to post it.
poor guy.

Re:Christopherrjones.com (1, Flamebait)

lkaos (187507) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422510)

I have been playing Everquest lately. If you don't know what this is, it is a online role playing game.

I am a Wood Elf Ranger. This character is at home in the woods and friends with nature. I live in the tree city and I'm currently helping in the ongoing battle against the Crushbone Orcs. They are the Orcs that live just north of the tree city. I am doing well. I can hold my own on up to the trainer hill at this time.


This guys got some serious problems... Now, the real interesting thing is that he also runs a site www.livingforchrist.com. Somehow always seems that christian zealots are a little on the odd side.

Somewhere down in Houston, Texas... (3, Funny)

xcomputer_man (513295) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422488)

A young student is gloating to all his friends about how the whole of Slashdot was fooled into thinking his web site belonged to a Microsoft VP...

[Email from ISP tech support: your monthly bandwidth quota has been exceeded.]

Those $@#%#$%^*%% Slashdot editors! Arrruggh!!!

I have to agree with this guy... (0)

JanusFury (452699) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422496)

I've been on the recieving end of a number of software fuckups over the years, and a number of them were 100% the fault of other companies than MS.

Also, the submitter's comment about LiLo is completely true. I set up a machine to dual-boot Red Hat and 98, and had no end of trouble from lilo. I was unable to defrag, Linux ALWAYS started up as default, even though I repeatedly told it to make 9x the default, etc. Removing it was a pain in the ass, too. I had to rebuild my master boot record, remove the red hat partitions, etc. It wasn't fun.

Other things, like eMachines' add-in start bar that COMPLETELY REPLACES the MS start bar, are a good example of what he's talking about - that eMachines start bar sucks. Imagine if spyware apps did shit like that - I've seen people remove the start button from the start bar using windows code - if spyware did that, people'd be pretty screwed. Especially if they're like me and have desktop icons turned off.

Don't discredit what this guy's saying, just because he works for MS - there's some very valuable half-truths in there.

Uh-huh, sure... (1)

thebabelfish (213456) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422498)

I go to work every day to build great products that people are going to love.
Uh-huh, sure, like I'm going to believe that. Myself and everyone I know has problems with the products produced by M$. Maybe many people don't hate their products, but they sure don't love them either. I'm just disgusted, and the sad fact is that he probably actually believes what he's saying....ugh....

Closing eyes... (1)

Cochonou (576531) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422500)

As long as Microsoft keeps on supporting projects such as this one [seti-inst.edu] , I'll be able to cope with its infamous commercial behaviour.

Chris Runs His Site on LAMP (1)

kjhambrick (111698) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422501)

Not one for eating his own dogfood I guess.

Check out netcraft( his site ) [netcraft.com]

-- kjh

What a joke! (5, Insightful)

no-body (127863) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422518)

This trial becomes more and more a charade - actually it is one getting more and more .

Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson was right on: Cut out the OS - give it to a separtate company and let all the other's compete as they choose on applications.

As long as this clear separation is avoided, there is bickering and cheating - in particular from the side of Microsoft. They are very skillful in this game. That's why they got there in the first place.

The company owning the OS and writing applications to it always has an advantage and Microsoft tried and is succeeding in blurring the border between OS and applications to keep this advantage.

This opportunity to clean this up was missed due to the fact that the judges of the appeals court are wimps.

Just look at the possibility of being prejudiced. Has it ever been looked at if any of the judges or their close relatives had any stock or mututal fund with Microsoft stock in it? I doubt it.

The courage to do "what is right" is missing in the US judidical system, things are done which are "politially right" or "don't hurt the consumer". What a mess!

Very disappointing.

Unrealistic (2)

astrashe (7452) | more than 12 years ago | (#3422519)

First of all, if MS isn't confronted on its monopolistic tactics, it might not be possible to run other software. The guy in the article was arguing for that ability.

Second of all, people are doing a lot of work to make linux better. Herculean efforts are underway as we speak. Hang out at the dot (dot.kde.org), or at any number of sites at sourceforge if you're missing out on it. Or at freshmeat. Or any one of hundreds of other sites.

Finally, the line about "microsoft and its gayness" was kind of offensive.
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