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Bell-Labs Releases New Version Of Plan 9

Hemos posted more than 11 years ago | from the from-outer-space dept.

Announcements 332

F2F writes "Plan 9 from Bell Labs Fourth Release was announced yesterday marking a major overhaul of the entire operating system. VMware images are now supported, together with hoards of new hardware. The operating system now sports a new security model (on top of the old one, which was already quite secure), new network-resident secure storage system and improvements in the thread library, among others. See the release notes here: release4 notes or simply go to the download page at: plan9 download." T. adds: erikdalen sent in these links to critiques of the Plan 9 license from Richard Stallman and Nathan Myers.

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332 comments

This page is too thin! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424526)

How about a little widening?


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Email me and tell me what you think of widening! [mailto]

Slashdot editors (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424537)

The men are generally described as dark or olive-skinned, rather oriental-looking, of short stature, and frail build, and are usually dressed in black, sometimes in ill-fitting or out-of-fashion clothes. There are generally two or three of them and they seem to travel in large black cars. Some people who have been visited by 'men in black' have noted the numbers on the cars' license plates, but when poice have checked these they invariably found that they are non-existant as registered license numbers. Other people have reported that the visitors have appeared and vanished with unaccountable abruptness. They have used a variety of ruses to command a hearing, masquerading as government agents, journalists, military or air force personnel, or representatives of insurance companies, for example. Sometimes they simply ask a lot of questions, many of them puzzlingly irrelevant, and then go away, but sometimes they communicate quite unequivocal warnings of dire consequences if a person does not keep quiet about his UFO experience. More than one investigator has been effectively silenced or intimidated by the sinister visitors. UFO cultists who believe that the world's governments are in cahots to suppress information on the subject, have spread the idea that the 'men in black' are CIA agents, but this hypothesis is difficult to maintain in view of the evidence for their world-wide appearances, the uniformity and peculiarity of their looks, and the strangeness of their conduct

spam (1)

doubtless (267357) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424538)

Support for electronic mail has been extended in many ways and now includes some new spam filtering tool

Is this the first OS to have spam filtering built right into it? Sounds neat, until they can really handle long file names.....

Re:spam (2)

F2F (11474) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424559)

should read the entire release. names of arbitrary length can already be handled by p9

Re:spam (0)

doubtless (267357) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424583)

haha, I was just kidding. It's still early, and I haven't had my breakfast.

Re:spam (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424624)

You weren't kidding. You were just wrong. Be a man and admit it.

Real geeks don't need breakfast. All they need is Mountain Dew.

Re:spam (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424784)

I thought this had somthing to do with a re-realease Plan 9 from Outer Space.

I was thinking: "WTF? That movie sucked!! Their re-realeasing it!!!"

Well.. (2, Informative)

Gangis (310282) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424540)

I've used Plan9 in the past, and while the new version does look good, frankly I find the GUI quite cheesy. It's just my opinion, but I wouldn't want a pastel-colored theme as my desktop. Also, with my experience with this alternative OS, it's difficult to work with. Maybe version 4 will be better... Who knows?

Pretty Secure... (2, Insightful)

IronTek (153138) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424543)

Considering one would have to be one heck of a hacker (cracker, etc, whatever...pick your adj, I don't want a debate!) to even figure out how to begin to go about hacking a Plan 9 system, I'd say it's a pretty secure OS.

Re:Pretty Secure... (1, Flamebait)

complete fallout (547149) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424549)

there is no security through obscurity

million flies.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424618)

are you sure? you're now talking about the most widely utilized security measure ever.

Re:million flies.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424656)

He's just bleating out the standard bromide. Pay him no mind.

Re:Pretty Secure... (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424632)

Good boy. Spouting the official party lines like that is a sure way to get moderated up.

Of course there is security in obscurity.

Re:Pretty Secure... (3, Funny)

autocracy (192714) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424658)

What about out-right confusion? (There IS a difference!)

Re:Pretty Secure... (1)

div_2n (525075) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424683)

The only completely secure OS is one that either a) doesn't exist or b) has no I/O interfaces at all (which makes it useless)

Just a fact that security is a goal to be constantly reached for and never fully realized.

Re:Pretty Secure... (1)

naasking (94116) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424768)

Only for poorly designed security models. There are security models out there that have been mathematically proven secure (EROS [eros-os.org]).

While implementations may not be 100% bug-free, a properly designed system can severely limit the damage of any single compromise. I'm sure the only reason you think it can't be done, is because of the mediocre state of "popular" operating systems.

Re:Pretty Secure... (1)

div_2n (525075) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424802)

Of course, the unfortunate thing is that security is only as strong as your weakest link. One dumb and careless user can turn the most secure environment into an open bank vault with a sign blazing "take what you can carry!"

Re:Pretty Secure... (3, Funny)

aozilla (133143) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424699)

there is no security through obscurity

Then why do you hide your email address?

The Plan 9 Licence (5, Informative)

F2F (11474) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424548)

The problems with the Plan9 licence generally do not bother much of the developers, even though occasionaly flamefests erupt on the plan9 mailing lists.

According to the people at Bell Labs, if the Lucent lawyers agree, Plan9's licence could immediately be changed to something more in terms with RMS' revolution.

Unfortunately those same lawyers have been petitioned quite so many times already.

Richard Stallman's vision (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424738)

Richard Stallman's idea is to have a socialist police state which pays everyone equally no matter how talented they are -- the janitor makes the same amount of money as the computer programmer -- and programmers will be forced to release software under the GPL, and if they don't release under the GPL we throw them out of town and take their car, home, etc. Long live the revolution!

Don't like giving half your paycheck to the state? Just wait until you have to give 75-90% of it to the state. It has already happened in some European countries, and it will happen here too if people who think like Richard Stallman get into power.

Re:Richard Stallman's vision (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424770)

75-90% of it to the state. It has already happened in some European countries

Bollocks.

I live in Europe and the income tax caps at 50-60%. To have such a figure you have to be a CEO of a damn large company and earn tens of millions of dollars per year.

Re:Richard Stallman's vision (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424776)

which pays everyone equally no matter how talented they are
Sounds good to me! I don't want to be paid more just because I was born a genius, and/or my rich parents had loads of money to nurture a particular ability. It seems like you do.
the janitor makes the same amount of money as the computer programmer
Hell, yes, even under your meritocracy! The breadth (and in the cases of many developers these days, depth) of a janitor's talents far exceed those of the majority of computer programmers.
Don't like giving half your paycheck to the state?
I absolutely love it. I live in one of those Nasty Socialist European states, and have also stayed several months in the US of A, and it was like dropping down a step in the evolution of civilisation. For a first world country, your medical care is a joke (and I'm talking about with insurance), your transport is a joke, your air quality is a joke (I can barely fucking breathe in the city!), and people are so fucking obsessed with their (usually inherited) status.

Thank goodness for the Equaliser that is socialism.

Ah, booger... (2, Funny)

jo42 (227475) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424550)

It don't support much hardware [bell-labs.com], do it?

Not to mention that it needs to be beaten by a big honkin' pretty [bell-labs.com] stick.

RMS (-1)

Roto-Rooter Man (520267) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424552)

Do we really need to hear Stallman's critique of every little news story that pops up on Slashdot? Christ, it's like Slashdot didn't feel the original story was biased enough for its standards.

"Here's a story, and in case you aren't sure how you're supposed to react, here's the way open source fanatics should think about it."

interesting ideas, unacceptable license (0, Troll)

j09824 (572485) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424553)

Plan 9 has some interesting ideas, and the code is probably clearnly written. It would be nice if it were an open source operating system so that people could use it, built commercial systems on top of it, contribute to it, and enhance it.

Unfortunately, the Plan 9 license is unacceptable, as Stallman and Myers point out. And it doesn't look like that's going to change either.

Re:interesting ideas, unacceptable license (0, Troll)

Japanese Fuckslut (554887) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424666)

It's Bell Labs' OS, so they're allowed to call the shots about how its licensed. I prefer to judge an OS based on what it can do for me, rather than whether or not it is sanctioned by Richard Stallman & friends.

Re:interesting ideas, unacceptable license (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424667)

Since when does Stallman decide what is acceptable?

He's one extreme end of a pole, and it's not really that important a pole.

Bell Labs? (1)

eap (91469) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424558)

Didn't they become Lucent Technologies a long time ago?

Re:Bell Labs? (1)

div_2n (525075) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424657)

Bell Labs is the R&D force behind Lucent. Lucent is the business front. www.lucent.com will tell you the lowdown.

If you don't like their license... (5, Insightful)

cperciva (102828) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424561)

don't use their code.

When people are offering you something for free, it's pretty rude to complain that they're not offering you even more.

Re:If you don't like their license... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424633)

It's a shame RMS won't remove his head from his ass. He'd probably speak more clearly and maybe even more intelligently if he did.

Re:If you don't like their license... (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424644)

For people like RMS, Bill Gates and religious fanatics there is only one Right Way -- their way.

They don't think they're being rude because, after all, they're saving the people from themselves.

Re:If you don't like their license... (5, Insightful)

j09824 (572485) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424650)

When people are offering you something for free, it's pretty rude to complain that they're not offering you even more.

It is decidedly not rude, however, to explain to others what the problems with a self-proclaimed "open source" license are and why they shouldn't use the code either. It is also not rude to explain to the authors, politely, why one can't use the license the way it is; that may help the authors figure out how they might be able to grow their user community.

Re:If you don't like their license... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424700)

It's also not rude to put warning stickers that have the CheapBytes URL onto the Red Hat boxes at Best Buy.

In fact, perhaps that's what I will do this afternoon.

Re:If you don't like their license... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424799)

It is very common for people to tell their friends that they can just download the open parts of RedHat. Neither RedHat nor anybody else has a problem with that.

However, physically defacing a product in a store is something different, as you will find out when you try this afternoon.

Re:If you don't like their license... (2)

56ker (566853) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424692)

People like to have something to complain about. A more constructive thing to do would be to e-mail them saying how much you've enjoyed previous versions, how you're sad to see it not supported any more & how you'd be willing to pay for new versions if they reversed their decision.

No, it's Lucent's false offer that is rude (2)

mkcmkc (197982) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424753)

If Lucent's offer were free and clear (like a GPL or OS license), it would be rude to complain about it. But it's not.

The license is actually an IP monkey trap. It pretends to be open, tempting us all to invest our time and effort into the release. But it's actually very restrictive, and gives Lucent many ways to pull the rug out from under us once we've "trapped" ourselves by investing our time and effort.

If Lucent is serious about getting people to use the release, they need to offer it under some License which involves a true fair exchange. I'm surprised that this isn't self-evident to the Plan 9 developers.

--Mike

Build Your Bunkers Now #@ +1 ; Breaking News @# (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424563)

Washington -- The Bush administration, in developing a potential approach for toppling President Saddam Hussein of Iraq, is concentrating its attention on a major air campaign and ground invasion, with initial estimates contemplating the use of 70,000 to 250,000 troops.

The administration is turning to that approach after concluding that a coup in Iraq would be unlikely to succeed and that a proxy battle using local forces there would be insufficient to bring a change in power.

But senior officials now acknowledge that any offensive would probably be delayed until early next year, allowing time to create the right military, economic and diplomatic conditions. These include avoiding summer combat in bulky chemical suits, preparing for a global oil price shock and waiting until there is progress toward ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Until recently, the administration had contemplated a possible confrontation with Hussein this fall, after building a case at the United Nations that the Iraqi leader is unwilling to allow the kind of highly intrusive inspections needed to prove he has no weapons of mass destruction.

That schedule seems less realistic now. Conflict in the Middle East has widened a rift within the administration over whether military action can be undertaken without inflaming Arab states and prompting anti-American violence throughout the region.

In his public speeches, President Bush still sounds as intent as ever about ousting Hussein, making it clear that he will not let the Middle East crisis obscure his goal. But he has not issued any order for the Pentagon to mobilize its forces, and today there is no official "war plan."

Instead, policymakers and operational commanders are trying to sketch out the broad outlines of the confrontation they expect. Among the many questions they must address is where to base air and ground forces in the region. Even before Bush's tense meeting with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia on Thursday, the Pentagon was working on the assumption that it might have to carry out any military action without the use of bases in the kingdom.

The planning now anticipates the possible extensive use of bases for American forces in Turkey and Kuwait, with Qatar as the replacement for the sophisticated air operations center in Saudi Arabia, and with Oman and Bahrain playing important roles.

NOT LIKE AFGHANISTAN

As to any war plan itself, the military expects to be asked for a more traditional approach than the unconventional campaign in Afghanistan. Such an approach would resemble the Persian Gulf War in style, if not in size, and would be fought with even more modern weapons and more dynamic tactics. "The president has not made any decisions," a senior Defense Department official said. "But any efforts against Iraq will not look like what we did in Afghanistan." In terms of diplomatic reaction from the region, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and their senior aides contend that Arab leaders would publicly protest but secretly celebrate Hussein's downfall -- as long as the operation was decisive -- and that ousting him would actually ease the job of calming violence between Israel and the Palestinians. They believe that warnings of uprisings among Arab populations are overblown. "It has been the consistent drumbeat from our friends in the region that if we are serious, they will be with us," said one administration official in this camp.

But at the State Department and among some at the White House, counter- arguments are posed that efforts to topple Hussein would be viewed by Arabs as a confrontation with Islam, destabilizing the entire region and complicating the broader campaign against Osama bin Laden and his network, al Qaeda.

SAUDI SUPPORT UNCERTAIN

The reaction in Saudi Arabia already is critical.
The United States would need permission to use Saudi airspace adjacent to Iraq, if not Saudi air bases, officials said, but it is unclear whether Bush took up that subject with Abdullah when the topic of Iraq came up.

NO TURKISH TALKS YET

Turkish officials, for their part, said that no negotiations on basing American troops for a new campaign against Iraq had yet taken place. U.S. officials confirmed that, calling such talks premature. Kuwait's position, too, is uncertain. At an Arab League summit meeting in March, Iraq agreed to recognize Kuwait and pledged not to invade again in exchange for a declaration that an attack on Iraq would be considered an attack against all Arab states. But American officials said they could rely on Kuwait, whose very survival is owed to U.S. military power after Iraq invaded the country in 1990.

Senior administration, Pentagon and military officials say that consensus has emerged that there is little chance for a military coup to unseat Hussein from within, even with the United States exerting economic and military pressure and providing covert assistance.

AN IMPOSSIBLE COUP

"There have been at least six coup attempts in the 1990s, and they consistently fail," said an administration official. In each instance, this official said, dissident Iraqi officers "sent signals to us, 'We're ready for a coup,' and the next thing you know these guys are murdered or it fails or people have cold feet at the end and leave the country."

"It's a horrific police state," the official said. "Nobody trusts anyone, so how can you pull off a coup?" The parallel strategy in Iraq would involve the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south. But Hussein's military -- although only one-third its pre-Gulf-War strength -- is strong enough to defeat any confrontation by proxy, officials said. Officials said the nascent plans for a heavy air campaign and land assault already included rough numbers of troops, ranging from a minimum of about 70, 000 to 100,000 -- one Army corps or a reinforced corps -- to a top of 250,000 troops, which still would be only half the number used in the Gulf War. Other than troops from Britain, no significant contribution of allied forces is anticipated.

Moving tens of thousands of troops to a region with access more limited than in the Gulf War could be a logistical challenge, officers said. The modern American military has never fought the kind of dangerous and complicated urban battles that might be needed to oust the Hussein government. Dealing with Hussein's suspected chemical and biological weapons would require pre-emptive strikes by precision weapons, as well as an element of heavy deterrence.
While the Pentagon has focused on how to remove Hussein, the White House is also mindful of the effects of a war on oil supplies -- either because the fighting itself would disrupt the flow of oil, or because Saudi Arabia and other Arab producers would feel obliged because of pressure at home to cut back on exports to the United States.

In November, Bush ordered that the government's Strategic Petroleum Reserve be filled to capacity. A review of the delivery schedule for the reserve shows that many of the largest monthly deliveries come between September and January, another reason for pushing any offensive off to early next year.

Great! (4, Funny)

NoMoreNicksLeft (516230) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424564)

Now I can go confuse all my marginally OS-literate coworkers and friends, and be amused while they try to sort out OS 9, Plan 9, and MacOS9...

The entertainment possibilities are endless.

UI (3, Interesting)

GypC (7592) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424572)

Plan9 has some really cool ideas, the more Unix than Unix everything-as-a-file paradigm, the network transparent file system, directory merging, the list goes on and on.

But I just can't get past the mouse-intensive UI. I absolutely hate it.

Re:UI (1)

dduck (10970) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424585)

Hmmm... I think this is a case of "Stop complaining, start coding!". Writing a new WM for Plan 9 can't be that hard, considering the number of WM's available for other open platforms.

What happened to the Zombies (4, Funny)

slideshot (201483) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424573)

Funny, last time I heard about Plan 9, it involved turning humans into zombies to take over the world. Guess plans really change when the R and D department is cut.

Re:What happened to the Zombies (1)

Anthracks (532185) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424675)

Did you actually WATCH Plan 9? I sure hope they've revised their plan since that thing.

Glenda (4, Funny)

Roto-Rooter Man (520267) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424589)

Plan 9 has the best OS mascot ever. [bell-labs.com]

Re:Glenda (2, Funny)

vreeker (264162) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424628)

Best mascot ever? Only if you are trying to market to a bunch of 10 year old pokemon obsessed kids!

autistic? retarded? (1)

metalhed77 (250273) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424643)

that's the most retarded (literally) looking mascot ever.

Re:autistic? retarded? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424680)

I don't know about that.

Tux looks more retarded. That penguin (who ever heard of adopting a species that forgot how to fly as a mascot?) always looks to me like it just took a bong hit and is right on the edge of stoopid.

Re:autistic? retarded? (0)

Roto-Rooter Man (520267) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424723)

Tux is just like the average Linux user; just look at his obesity and arrogant smirk. He also looks [slashdot.org] like he's in the process of taking a fat dump. This is so you can imagine the stench of the average Linux user.

They did drop the ball in one aspect, however. I don't see any body hair on Tux whatsoever.

Re:autistic? retarded? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424696)

Sorta like a stupid penguin eh?

Re:autistic? retarded? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424719)

shez bajoootifuul

blah (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424596)

what kind of people even download and install this stuff ?
like what's the point

Hoards (2, Offtopic)

1u3hr (530656) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424597)

VMware images are now supported, together with hoards of new hardware.

That's HORDES, as in the Golden Horde of Genghis Khan, meaning lots, not HOARDS as in a secret treasury. Also, for future reference, probably LOSE not LOOSE, and FAZE not PHASE are the words intended.

Re:Hoards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424704)

VMware images are now supported, together with hoards of new hardware.

Has anyone been able to make this work? On my vmware workstation 3.1, the GUI is just totally fucked up. No text is visible, it's all little lines, that appear as you mouse over the area...

I had such high hopes about this vmware download too. I always wanted to play with plan 9, but am just too damn lazy to properly install it.

Plan 9 is old hat (2, Flamebait)

countach (534280) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424598)

While it's cool, in a 70's kind of way that Plan 9 makes everything into a file, it's really pretty old hat. A file is a very kludgy, primitive notion compared to making everything into an object.
Making everything a byte stream is consistent - sure, great - but byte streams are pretty pathetic. Some kind of OO file system where everything is an object, and you can hook objects together would be something much cooler. Something kinda like a lisp machine combined with a persistent store, where you can operate on any object using standard language constructs.

So who gives a %&*#@ about Plan 9. Let it die.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424622)

That pretty much sums up the situation. Good job.

SOAP and XML (1)

Latent Heat (558884) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424634)

Isn't the whole idea behind SOAP is that every object can be stored, streamed, messages using XML packets (i.e. byte-stream files) so everything-is-a-file isn't that far off the mark of where everything these days is headed?

Re:SOAP and XML (1)

countach (534280) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424648)

Well firstly XML is not OO at all anyway. There
have been some proposals to add some OO features
but they havn't got up. In any case, compare
XML to what an OO file system or OO database has
and it's really pathetic. As a network protocol, I
guess SOAP is in some way ok (not great, but ok)
that's not really anything much to do with storing
complex INTERCONNECTED data.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424638)

Should have been +1 funny perhaps?

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (5, Insightful)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424641)

I think you should re-read what plan9 is all about. It's not about everything-is-a-file. That's unix.

Plan9 is in no way unix.

It tried (and succeeded) to do several things.

Plan9 removes the distinction between operating system, library, and application. These are things that an OS researcher cares about but a user doesn't.

So if you are developing plan9 apps, you *never* worry about the actual hardware. You worry about the program itself. The systems guys can map it to whatever hardware they want later.
You create your own personal computing environment the way you like it, and that environment can be mapped onto whatever sized plan9 installation you find later.

Yes.. it makes everything a file, or more accurately, every resource has a name in a tree-like structure. (not so much that everything is a file but a file is just another resource).
communications between resources is via a standard protocol (9p) that can be networked.

A system like you are proposing COULD go on top of plan9. That's more of a programming level thing than an OS level thing.

The thing is, plan9 offers no real benefit to a single user on a single computer. Running plan9 on your laptop is of no real use.
Running plan9 on your laptop because you are developoing apps that will ultimately run on the globe-wide corporate plan9 system.. that's where plan9 excels, because the little namespace you construct on your laptop.. when you plug your laptop into the global network, you can re-map your cpus for a given application to the supercomputing cluster in shanghai, the storage vault in the Caymans, and the 12 gig removable drive on the workstation next to you, and the application you wrote sees nothing different at all.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424665)

mindstrm writes:
You create your own personal computing environment the way you like it
Cool. Then it does come with Transformers wallpaper. Awesome.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (1)

countach (534280) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424674)

That Plan 9 has all these distributed features is all cool and great, as I said nice job. But still at the end of the day, these cool features are based on the file and file system and directory name space idea. And each of these "resources" is always a byte stream. The better idea is the object idea where objects hang together any way they please, not just in one paradigm - directory name spaces. Building a nice OO operating system on top of this is likely to be extremely kludgy. Ok, some IDEAS in plan-9 are interesting to research, but the OS itself should die. It's 70's technology taken to it's ultimate conclusion which is interesting, but not where we should be going.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424697)

It's 70's technology taken to it's ultimate conclusion which is interesting, but not where we should be going.


Sounds like Linux.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (1)

countach (534280) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424701)

True, Linux is old hat. Unfortuately it's the best thing out there that is free, stable and has decent number of apps.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424708)

no, you're talking about BSD. linux is just bloated.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424747)

No, he's talking about Linux. Note that he did specify "free", "stable", and "decent number of apps". BSD has none of the above, and never will. Every BSD freak I've met abhors proper programming practices, OO design principles, and anything that was invented after 1982.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424778)

any of the 3, open-sourced BSDs can stand on their own merit as the best operating systems available today. linux supports more new hardware, but its implementation is poor. if you don't recognize this, then you obviously haven't worked with both operating systems extensively.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (4, Insightful)

NoMoreNicksLeft (516230) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424720)

Huh? Do you even understand the conversation?

The only thing that could mark you more clueless, would be if you started touting Windows.NET as the true modern OS.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (1)

naasking (94116) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424788)

Object Oriented paradigm? That belongs on top of an operating system (like Plan9), not built into it.

Re:Plan 9 is old hat (2, Insightful)

smcdow (114828) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424758)

A file is a very kludgy, primitive notion compared to making everything into an object.

This kind of comment keeps popping up here. I wouldn't write off files just yet. Files are simpler, but so is their interface. The API to files is very shallow, and you get right to the implementation layer very quickly. Objects obviously provide much more sophisticated functionality, but the API is also more complex (while seeming simple) and requires much more overhead (read: cpu cycles) in the interface layer before you get down into the implementation.

If performance is paramount, then files - with their simple, dumb byte-stream interface - are the way to go. If you care more about clean interface and don't mind spending a lot of cpu cycles in the interface layer (rather than in the implementation), then something like persistant objects are good.

Interesting bit about license (5, Insightful)

dkleinsc (563838) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424601)

RMS argued that the bit about "all your modifications are belong to us" was really denying you the rights he finds important. I beg to differ.

By the looks of things, there's no restriction on you modifying the gode, with the exception that you must make your modifications available to the company. This would be sort of like forcing everyone who hacks the linux kernel to send in patches, which could be a useful thing to do. But there's no restriction on people messing with the code in the first place.

I'm not saying this software is free by Stallman's definition, but perhaps this is not quite as bad as he makes it out to be.

OS competition, if nothing else, motivates everyone to write better software (unless you're a monopolist, but we won't get into that). As a linux partisan, I say "Bring it on"

Re:Interesting bit about license (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424755)

Note that if you use the GPL all your software belongs to the Free Software Foundation. Something to keep in mind.

Re:Interesting bit about license (1)

dangermouse (2242) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424793)

Bullshit. You do not sign over your copyright by simply using the GPL. You should consider reading that license.

(Note that the GPL is not, generally, my license of choice.)

too little, too late (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424603)

Maybe Plan 9 could have made an impact 10 years ago if it had been free, but the window of oppurtunity is gone. Outside of a few die hard experimenters there are very few who have either a need or interest in Plan 9. I can attest to this by my own personally experience: I'm a user of another unsuccessful OS which missed the boat of oppurtunity. You don't get a second chance in this industry. Miss the brass ring and game's over.

I only care (0)

HotSIag (564942) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424620)

if Ed Wood has something to do with it

MOD PARENT UP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424725)

That was funny. Too bad very few slashbots will get it.

RMS is being unfair (4, Insightful)

AndrewRUK (543993) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424625)

One of RMS's criticisms of the Plan 9 lisence is that:
Plane 9 lisence: Distribution of Licensed Software to third parties pursuant to this grant shall be subject to the same terms and conditions as set forth in this Agreement,
RMS: This seems to say when you redistribute you must insist on a contract with the recipients, just as Lucent demands when you download it.
The GPL states that: You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.
So, it seems to me that RMS is criticising Plan 9's lisence for doing exactly the same thing as the GPL does. Can you say hypocrite, Richard?

Re:RMS is being unfair (4, Insightful)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424773)

Nope. Acceptance of the GPL is optional by end users. There is no requirement that someone you distribute GPL'd code to accepts the GPL. If they choose not to, then they have full rights as granted by copyright law, ie they can:
  • Backup, load it into memory, and run it (fair use)
  • Modify it
  • Give or sell the original and all copies made and still in existance to a third party, keeping none
What the Plan 9 licence does is make the licence involuntary - you cannot give someone the code without forcing them to accept the licence, making it a "viral" EULA, not a "virual" licence.

That's the difference. That's why Stallman objects to it.

Re:RMS is being unfair (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424777)

Incorrect. You can give someone GPL'd software without requiring them to agree to the GPL. The recipient only needs to agree to the GPL if they want to do something above and beyond what copyright law permits them to do (further distribution, for example).

reading comprehension? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424797)

The GPL does not require a contract. RMS is very emphatic that an end-user must not be required to accept a licence to use free software. He is very much anti-EULA. Let me rephrase this in words you can understand: you do NOT have to accept the GPL (or even know that it exists) in order to use GPL'd software. You can break every rule there is in the GPL, and you will still be allowed to use all GPL'd software legally. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THE GPL IN ORDER TO USE GPL'D SOFTWARE.

This is where the GPL differs from the Plan 9 licence (or "Plane 9 lisence" if you prefer) and why RMS is not a hypocrite.

Gnuts (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424661)

RMS is a dirty GNU hippie.

Suck my Gnuts, muthafuckaz!

neat idea (1)

sirinek (41507) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424663)

A couple years ago (summer '00) one of the guys in the Chicago-area Linux Users Group did a short demo of Plan9. It looked pretty neat. He didnt know if anyone was actually using this in the real world though, does anyone here? :)


siri

RMS's first point (5, Insightful)

Zapman (2662) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424670)

From the license:

You agree to provide the Original Contributor, at its request, with a copy of the complete Source Code version, Object Code version and related documentation for Modifications created or contributed to by You if used for any purpose.

Stallman's point:

This prohibits modifications for private use, denying the users a basic right

I'm not 100% sure I see his point. If you make use of the code for any purpose, and Lucent asks you for the changes you made, you have to give it to them. IANAL, but it seems that they just want to be able to see all changes that get made.

The rest of RMS's points make sense, and this clause:

The licenses and rights granted under this Agreement shall terminate automatically if (i) You fail to comply with all of the terms and conditions herein; or (ii) You initiate or participate in any intellectual property action against Original Contributor and/or another Contributor.

is truly awful. See the link from Nathan Myers for a well written explanation of just how bad this is.

Re:RMS's first point (1)

cgray4 (39638) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424772)

I'm not 100% sure I see his point. If you make use of the code for any purpose, and Lucent asks you for the changes you made, you have to give it to them. IANAL, but it seems that they just want to be able to see all changes that get made.

Which is a bad thing. Suppose you have created an encrypted FS for yourself, and it could be broken into if Lucent knew exactly how it worked. You would not want to have to give them your changes.

Re:RMS's first point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424787)

Uhmm.. The license doesn't say "if used for any purpose". It says "if distributed in any form, e.g., binary or source.".

my response to RMS' response on the licence (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424673)

Ok, here is my response to RMS' response: (if he can comment on any licence that annoys him, I can comment on the comments!)
You agree to provide the Original Contributor, at its request, with a copy of the complete Source Code version, Object Code version and related documentation for Modifications created or contributed to by You if used for any purpose.

This prohibits modifications for private use, denying the users a basic right

I don't recall a "basic human right" being the right to modify code without releasing it. Surely this is more free than the GNU licence, which enables a company to use and modify GPL code as much as they want, and profit from it, without releasing the modifications, as long as they are only using the code internally.
and may, at Your option, include a reasonable charge for the cost of any media.

This seems to limit the price that may be charged for an initial distribution, prohibiting selling copies for a profit.

That "free software" might be sold without value added services at profit has been shown time and time again to be unworkable. This, of course, makes complete sense -- if I can buy one copy then redistribute it for nothing, why would anyone pay? In fact, I like this term, if I put it in a licence it would stop people even trying to make money off of my software by using their heavy marketing machine (which I might not have). If I'm not selling my work for profit, you're certainly not going to!
Distribution of Licensed Software to third parties pursuant to this grant shall be subject to the same terms and conditions as set forth in this Agreement,

This seems to say when you redistribute you must insist on a contract with the recipients, just as Lucent demands when you download it.

Does my licence to use GPL-licensed software end if I break the terms of the GPL? It certainly should! I don't want anyone using my GPL-licensed software if they're not following the terms of the GPL.
1. The licenses and rights granted under this Agreement shall terminate automatically if (i) You fail to comply with all of the terms and conditions herein; or (ii) You initiate or participate in any intellectual property action against Original Contributor and/or another Contributor.

This seemed reasonable to me at first glance, but later I realized that it goes too far. A retaliation clause like this would be legitimate if it were limited to patents, but this one is not. It would mean that if Lucent or some other contributor violates the license of your GPL-covered free software package, and you try to enforce that license, you would lose the right to use the Plan 9 code.

Well, RMS, I agree. You agree that, if you export or re-export the Licensed Software or any modifications to it, You are responsible for compliance with the United States Export Administration Regulations and hereby indemnify the Original Contributor and all other Contributors for any liability incurred as a result.

It is unacceptable for a license to require compliance with US export control regulations. Laws being what they are, these regulations apply in certain situations regardless of whether they are mentioned in a license; however, requiring them as a license condition can extend their reach to people and activities outside the US government's jurisdiction, and that is definitely wrong. The Export Administration Regulations refer to export from the US. So, if you're not in the US, and aren't exporting from the US, this term simplifies to, "Space intentionally left blank". Anyone who dislikes this term should take things up with the US government, not Lucent. Lucent just doesn't want to get in trouble with the .gov.

2.2 No right is granted to Licensee to create derivative works of or to redistribute (other than with the Original Software or a derivative thereof) the screen imprinter fonts identified in subdirectory /lib/font/bit/lucida and printer fonts (Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Sans Italic, Lucida Sans Demibold, Lucida Typewriter, Lucida Sans Typewriter83), identified in subdirectory /sys/lib/postscript/font.
I'm no font nerd, but I imagine the group creating the software are completely unrelated to the creators of the font. Also, aside from the fact that code and font data can both be stored on a computer, what has the GPL got to do with copyright terms on fonts?
...As such, if You or any Contributor include Licensed Software in a commercial offering ("Commercial Contributor"), such Commercial Contributor agrees to defend and indemnify Original Contributor and all other Contributors (collectively "Indemnified Contributors")

Requiring indemnities from users is quite obnoxious.

IANAL, but if you sell something for profit (say you're Boeing selling an aeroplane) which uses components from another manufacturer (say Rolls Royce), then your client doesn't sue Rolls Royce if the plane falls out of the sky, but Boeing. If ya don't like it, put in a NO WARRANTIES clause. What software doesn't?
Contributors shall have unrestricted, nonexclusive, worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free rights, to use, reproduce, modify, display, perform, sublicense and distribute Your Modifications, and to grant third parties the right to do so, including without limitation as a part of or with the Licensed Software

This is a variant of the NPL asymmetry: you get limited rights to use their code, but they get unlimited rights to use your changes. While this does not by itself disqualify the license as a free software license (if the other problems were corrected), it is unfortunate.

Errr, "contributors shall have". That's any contributor. Not just Lucent. Which is exactly what the GPL provides, no?

Re:my response to RMS' response on the licence (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3424693)

Ooops, fubarred on the HTML. Read the appropriate messed up section (following "Well, RMS, I agree") as:
You agree that, if you export or re-export the Licensed Software or any modifications to it, You are responsible for compliance with the United States Export Administration Regulations and hereby indemnify the Original Contributor and all other Contributors for any liability incurred as a result.

It is unacceptable for a license to require compliance with US export control regulations. Laws being what they are, these regulations apply in certain situations regardless of whether they are mentioned in a license; however, requiring them as a license condition can extend their reach to people and activities outside the US government's jurisdiction, and that is definitely wrong.

The Export Administration Regulations refer to export from the US. So, if you're not in the US, and aren't exporting from the US, this term simplifies to, "Space intentionally left blank". Anyone who dislikes this term should take things up with the US government, not Lucent. Lucent just doesn't want to get in trouble with the .gov.

just nits (2)

werdna (39029) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424691)

A careful reading of the RMS criticisms seems overreaching. The criticisms are relatively minor, and his commentary appear to be wild overreactions from here. Admittedly, these terms could be repaired, and if it matters someday, they probably will be. But to characterize the license as unacceptable or worse seems to me to go way too far.

I'm not sure what's wrong at the end of the day with a retaliation clause -- such an idea might profit free software products. Imagine if suing someone for infringing a patent by distributing open source software required a company to retask all its servers to use new proprietary systems software.

RMS also complains about the clause requiring commercial distributions to indemnify the supplier as wrongful because it is "quite obnoxious" to require users to indemnify. That clause doesn't apply to users, of course, but only to commercial contributors.

I for one, am quite pleased (5, Funny)

The Plan 9 Bunny (576615) | more than 11 years ago | (#3424715)

It's good to see that my good friends at Lucent have finally decided to give me the fame that I deserve. It's been a long time a coming, and I feared looking like a leathery casino queen, as I aged. See, despite being an odd looking bunny, I still smoke a pack and a half of Lucky Strikes a day, in addition to eating a lot of virginia ham. Regardless, Let's Get it On.
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