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MAPS vs. Gordon Feyck: Who Owns the DUL?

jamie posted more than 11 years ago | from the dul-story dept.

Spam 211

etrnl writes "The spam-l mailing list has an interesting post from Nick Nicholas about a recent lawsuit between MAPS, LLC. and Gordon Fecyk, who had arranged with Paul Vixie to host the DUL with MAPS in 1998. Even more interesting is that Nick was the Executive Director of MAPS who hired Gordon at MAPS in 1999. Notable quote from Nick: 'I find it extremely ironic that an organization which is currently soliciting donations to its own legal defense fund would now be using its limited resources to pursue litigation against a former employee.'" MAPS wants a temporary restraining order on two separate copyright claims: first, that Feyck can't use the DUL database, and second, that he can't run a too-similar website (now down). The bone of contention is that Feyck claims he bought back the DUL from MAPS, and MAPS disagrees. Incidentally, the DUL is currently stopping CmdrTaco from directly emailing one of the Slash coders.

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211 comments

fp of the day (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475402)

all your base are belong to us

YESS!!! ASCII Goat Lives! (-1)

Big_Ass_Spork (446856) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475408)


* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * [goatse.cx]
gcccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cg
oc/ccccc\ccccccccccccc\cccccccccccc/cccc\ccccc cco
a|ccccccc|ccccccccccccc\cccccccccc|cccccc|ccc ccca
t|ccccccc`.ccccccccccccc|ccccccccc|ccccccc:c cccct
s`cccccccc|ccccccccccccc|cccccccc\|ccccccc| cccccs
ec\ccccccc|c/ccccccc/cc\\\ccc--__c\\cccccc c:cccce
xcc\cccccc\/ccc_--~~cccccccccc~--__|c\ccc cc|ccccx
*ccc\cccccc\_-~cccccccccccccccccccc~-_\c ccc|cccc*
gcccc\_ccccc\cccccccc_.--------.______\ |ccc|ccccg
occcccc\ccccc\______//c_c___c_c(_(__>c c\ccc|ccc co
accccccc\ccc.ccCc___)cc______c(_(____>cc|cc/cc c ca
tccccccc/\c|cccCc____)/cccccc\c(_____>cc|_/ccc c ct
scccccc/c/\|cccC_____)ccccccc|cc(___>ccc/cc\cc c cs
eccccc|ccc(ccc_C_____)\______/cc//c_/c/ccccc\c cce
xccccc|cccc\cc|__ccc\\_________//c(__/ccccccc |ccx
*cccc|c\cccc\____)ccc`----ccc--'cccccccccccc c|cc*
gcccc|cc\_cccccccccc___\ccccccc/_cccccccccc _/c|cg
occc|cccccccccccccc/cccc|ccccc|cc\cccccccc cccc|co
accc|ccccccccccccc|cccc/ccccccc\cc\cccccc ccccc|ca
tccc|cccccccccc/c/cccc|ccccccccc|cc\cccc ccccccc|t
sccc|ccccccccc/c/cccccc\__/\___/cccc|cc cccccccc|s
ecc|ccccccccccc/cccccccc|cccc|ccccccc| ccccccccc|e
xcc|cccccccccc|ccccccccc|cccc|ccccccc |ccccccccc|x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * [goatse.cx]

Re:YESS!!! ASCII Goat Lives! (-1)

Klerck (213193) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475418)

Here is a better one!

* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a \ a
t `. : t
s` \ s
e \ / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~-- \ x
* \ \-~ ~-\ *
g \ \ .--------.___\ g
o \ \// ((> \ o
a \ . C ) ((> / a
t /\ C )/ \ (> / t
s / /\ C) (> / \ s
e ( C__)\___/ // _/ / \ e
x \ \\// (/ x
* \ \) `---- --' *
g \ \ / / g
o / \ o
a / \ \ a
t / / \ t
s / / \/\/ s
e / e
x x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

Keep on rockin' in the free world! (-1)

Eso (205333) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475405)

He could see the truth, and see through your lies.
But for all his power, couldn't foresee his own demise.

I will be born again!

I know Gord (3, Funny)

Kickstart70 (531316) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475409)

And while I know he's a decent guy, he also tends to be a little too hard-headed for his own good (at least he ws a few years ago). I suspect that some communication here between the parties will clear up a lot of what's going on.

On the other hand, since I know Gordon to be an honest guy, I suspect that the other party is trying to screw him out of what rightfully is his.

Kickstart

I find this funny (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475508)

Hi.

I'm twenty five years old, and up until two weeks ago, I was a virgin. Too
many celibacy had worn my self-esteem down to the point where I was finally
willing to pay for sex. I'll spare you the details of the event, as this is
not what I am writing about.

After having completed the act, the prostitute whose services I had rented
immediately exclaimed that something had felt weird. With no particular
ceremony, she grabbed my now-flaccid member and subjected it to an intense
examination, while biting her thumbnail in consternation.

After a brief period, she informed me that my penis was deformed, in her
professional opinion. I had spent my entire life without ever seeing another
man urinate, so I was not aware that the output usually emits from the end
of the head, not the underside, where mine does.

I'd like to know if I should seek the advice of a doctor or plastic surgeon?
Is this the sort of thing that can, or even should be corrected? I've lived
with it for twenty five years, and it hasn't bothered me. Is there really
any reason to worry about this?

Re:I find this funny (-1, Offtopic)

Bitter Old Man (572131) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475889)

This poor man is in dire need of help, and you callous, self-righteous homosexual Communist hippie moderators mark him as a troll. You long-haired, disgusting, inhumane sons of bitches. Feyck you all!

ME (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475411)

I own the DULL I am the faggot raper Baba bpoey baba booey.
[INSERT POLITICAL COMMENTARY]

Acronyms Abound (-1, Troll)

CmdrTaco (editor) (564483) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475417)

Okay, I understood none of this summary, except MAPS is a corporation fighting Feyck over the DUL. But what is the DUL. And for that matter, what is MAPS- what do they do?

Re:Acronyms Abound (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475432)

Yes, in reputable news sources, acronyms are explained the first time they appear in a story. HTML even has an <abbr> tag which lets you explain it with a mouseover.

Re:Acronyms Abound (1, Redundant)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475439)

I was thinking the same thing. Is this the type of thing that could set a legal precedent? Or is it more of a drama?

And before you tell me to read it, consider that some of us like to have an idea of what we're reading about before we go off reading articles. In other words, define ur acronyms!

Re:Acronyms Abound (5, Informative)

MiTEG (234467) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475444)

MAPS (Mail Abuse Prevention System LLC) is a not-for-profit California organization whose mission is to defend the Internet's e-mail system from abuse by spammers. Their principal means of accomplishing this mission is by educating and encouraging ISP's to enforce strong terms and conditions prohibiting their customers from engaging in abusive e-mail practices.

DUL (Dial-up User List) is not a blacklist, though it is often mistaken for such. The DUL is a listing of dynamic ISPs that is used as a filter by subscriber ISPs to prevent direct e-mail from those addresses.

Re:Acronyms Abound (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475517)

The DUL is a listing of dynamic ISPs that is used as a filter by subscriber ISPs to prevent direct e- mail from those addresses.

Er.. sorry, that should be dynamic IPs.

Re:Acronyms Abound (1)

Louis_Wu (137951) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475656)

OK, it seems that I need a serious clue-stick. You say: "DUL is not a blacklist", and you then say that it is actually a list used to filter email from certain IP addresses. What forms of filtering would not be defacto blacklisting? For large volumes of mail, I would think that refusing any emails from those IPs would be the only fast method of filtering. Is that not blacklisting? For small volumes, the filter could be porous, but by the very nature of the small mail volume, that means that there would still be a large volume of email swallowed by the bigger providers.

What am I missing?

Re:Acronyms Abound (5, Informative)

Jade E. 2 (313290) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475675)

The DUL is not a blacklist in the sense that all mail from the listed IPs is refused. The DUL is used to refuse direct mail from those IPs, but mail relayed through another server is allowed. This prevents someone on a dynamic IP from spamming by directly connecting to the SMTP server of each target address, instead of sending all the mail through an open relay. Legitimate customers simply need to use their ISP's (or a 3rd party) SMTP relay (which presumably has message speed limits on it) to send mail, and it will go through.

Yes, this prevents someone from running their own SMTP relay on a dynamic IP, but it's the only effective way of preventing such direct-to-target-server spam from going through.

Re:Acronyms Abound (2)

ZxCv (6138) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475875)

So how does it know whether the mail was relayed through a server first? By checking headers? Or does it have to do with the IP of the machine sending the mail? Headers seem like a ludicrous way to do it (too easy to fake), so I would hope thats not it, but this is the first I've ever heard of DUL so I'm not sure.

Re:Acronyms Abound (3, Informative)

blowdart (31458) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475947)

It drops any connections from any IP address within the list. It doesn't check any headers, it just checks the IP address of the connecting machine.

So, for example,

a) if dialup user a sends through an smtp server on dialup user b's box, it gets rejected, as the smtp server is running on dialup space.

b) if dialup user a sends directly to an smtp server using the DUL, it gets dropped again

c) if ddialup user a sends to smtp server on dialup user B, which in turn forwards and relays properly through his ISPs SMTP server, it will get through, as the ISP SMTP server will not be in the DUL.

Re:Acronyms Abound (2)

mpe (36238) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475910)

The DUL is not a blacklist in the sense that all mail from the listed IPs is refused. The DUL is used to refuse direct mail from those IPs, but mail relayed through another server is allowed. This prevents someone on a dynamic IP from spamming by directly connecting to the SMTP server of each target address, instead of sending all the mail through an open relay. Legitimate customers simply need to use their ISP's (or a 3rd party) SMTP relay (which presumably has message speed limits on it) to send mail, and it will go through.

Third party relaying wasn't even in the original SMTP spec. Even though it is now mentioned there is no requirment for any MTA to support either using or acting as a third party relay at all.

Yes, this prevents someone from running their own SMTP relay on a dynamic IP,

It dosn't need to be any kind of relay, a mail originator which conforms 100% with thre relevent RFCs will also be given problems.

but it's the only effective way of preventing such direct-to-target-server spam from going through.

Given the chance most spammers would use a third party relay, including an ISP provided one. Since this protects their identity and their machine. Indeed techniques such as Telegrube are easily defeated by using a third party relay.

RFCs are not gospel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475968)

The laissez fair internet has problems, you feel those problems are more acceptable than the problems caused by the ad hoc solutions ... not everyone agrees.

Re:Acronyms Abound (2)

weave (48069) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476137)

Yeah, this DUL crap prevented me (as a former @home customer) from just using my own sendmail server to send out my e-mails, since the no good piece of flock() @home server was constantly down.

Of course, due to DUL use in some places, my e-mail would bounce when trying to send to them. :(

I'm not really bitter against DUL users. The spam shit is out of hand and you do what you gotta do. It's just one more reason to hate selfish spammers who are ruining the net...

Re:Acronyms Abound (1)

wbmccrea (310333) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475681)

It's my understanding that blocking email from IPs that are part the DUL will only block email from people that are running *their own* SMTP server off of their dial up connection. Since most (I'd guess well over 95% of the people that use dial up) people use their ISP's SMTP server to send email, this should not block much useful email.

Re:Acronyms Abound (3, Informative)

TekPolitik (147802) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475848)

It's also worth noting that the DUL is the most valuable part of the MAPS services in that it blocks more spam than the other parts. Without it, MAPS will almost certainly lose customers.

Re:Acronyms Abound (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475851)

This is wrong: MAPS is a limited liability company (LLC).

It is not a not-for-profit. The two are mututally exclusive under California law.

Re:Acronyms Abound (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475451)

But what is the DUL. And for that matter, what is MAPS- what do they do?

Did you try clicking the link on "MAPS, LLC"? It's in the story. The linked page also has a link to the DUL [mail-abuse.org] .

MAPS = Mail Abuse Prevention System

DUL = Dial-up User List

Hule's mother (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475420)

Your mom too.

A sad day for the Internet (0, Troll)

The Karma Whore Guy (578144) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475430)

I have been a strongly outspoken supporter of MAPS for many years.

When I was with Gordon Fecyk I nearly had a heart attack when Paul Vixie called in 1997 to warn us that we were about to be listed in the MAPS RBL for running unsecured mail servers. But I supported his actions even then. Indeed, his call was very helpful in speeding up the bureaucracy at pacbell.net and getting the unsecured mail servers closed to relaying even more quickly. I appreciated Paul's willingness to work with us on resolving our problems.

Re:A sad day for the Internet (2)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475750)

When you cut&paste a referenced article and try to pass it off as your own... aren't you supposed to include the WHOLE article? Granted, its a long post. I guess just doing the top paragraph (with a tiny modification) is a quick, easy bite to swallow and hook the suckers with mod points, eh?


Proof that "trolling" involves less bridges and more hook-line-and-sinker.

Re:A sad day for the Internet (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475751)

Paul Vixie should be tried in the Hauge with Pinochet for crimes against humanity. He's be fucking with my internet connectivity for years.

Re:A sad day for the Internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475796)

Sucks to be a suburban white boy, don't it?

Spam? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475442)

Dull?

The title seems to say it all.

The writeup sure doesn't say anything.

Speaking of antispam.. (5, Insightful)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475449)

Here's a problem... with no easy way to deal with it.

Over the last few years, the Internet provider for Costa Rica has been targetted by anti-spam types as a spam hoster.

Now.. that's all well and good, but the end result is that

a) The entire country's IP range is on SPEWS
b) Internet is a government run monopoly here.
c) There is no direct way to be removed from SPEWS. You cannot contact them. You cannot explain your situation. (My situation is that we happen to have some IP addresses in this country, and have trouble reaching our customers because of it. We don't spam.)

Now.. I fully support the fact that the Internet is an anarchy, that each individual is free to decide how their network will or will not accept traffic from others, yada yada yada. On that I am firm.

But when it comes to an ISP.. we have a problem. An ISP that subscribes to this, sure, it's their choice, but it's awfully hard to explain to the client that they have to instruct their ISP to stop using this service. And the odds of the ISP stopping? Not likely.

The point is, in theory, it's all fair, in practice, it's a problem.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (2)

Technician (215283) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475553)

But when it comes to an ISP.. we have a problem. An ISP that subscribes to this, sure, it's their choice, but it's awfully hard to explain to the client that they have to instruct their ISP to stop using this service. And the odds of the ISP stopping? Not likely.
For most ISP's it's a simple choice. Do you want your service to go down frequently due to overloaded connections and mailboxes, or do you want to loose a dissastified consumer while retaining the rest. It's a simple choice for most ISP's.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (5, Interesting)

yoyoyo (520441) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475563)

SPEWS operates on the principle of collateral damage. If an ISP refuses to remove spammers on their system they expand the listings to include non-spammers.

Basically they want to make it as inconvenient as possible for the ISP's legitamate customers so that the ISP is pressured to change their ways from the inside.

I agree that you're in a difficult situation, but nothing else works.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (4, Insightful)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475610)

Again.. I don't accuse spews. Spam is a problem, and everyone is free to decide how to deal with it on their own.

I agree the system works. Unfortunately for anyone doing business in Costa Rica, there IS no competition. You have no choice. None whatsoever, and given the way things work, it's going to take quite a while to actually get changes made.

The other thing is..

This isn't just an ISP in the country.. it's the national (and only) telecom carrier. This is more like UUNET being blacklisted because on some level they sell bandwidth to spammers.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475753)

Pay the extra dollars and get yourself an IP tunnel. Hook the other end up to a non-blackslisted network and voila, no more problems, except that your wallet is a lot lighter and the whole setup is more fragile. But, that's the point after all.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (3, Informative)

mjh (57755) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476139)

I agree that you're in a difficult situation, but nothing else works.

I disagree with this assessment. There are at least two other things that work, and IMHO work better. The first is spamassassin [spamassassin.org] , and the second is TMDA. [sourceforge.net] I use both of these in series. And I've not received a single spam in my inbox since January (when I started using them). I used to get 20-30 per day. Now I'm down to zero.

I don't know how well SPEWS works. But I've used other RBL type systems and they always, at some point or another failed, and could sometimes fail big - where I suddenly start getting hundreds of spam from a non-listed IP. The two systems above can fail, but on a single instance, single email at a time. When they fail, they fail small.

IMHO, SPEWS, RBL, and any other IP based list systems are antiquated technology in comparison to spamassassin and TMDA. But YMMV.

$.02

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (3, Informative)

ShaunC (203807) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475672)

Are you talking about RACSA? This [google.com] RACSA? The RACSA that brings up more than 13,000 various spam sightings, complaints, and abuse reports in a Google search? Considering that most internet users have little clue on what to do with spam, and the percentage of clued folks actually posting to the news.admin.net-abuse* groups is extremely small, 13,000 is a big number.

Do you recognize the name Ralsky? There's less than 6000 Google hits for him. 13,000 is a big number.

RACSA has a spam problem. They need to fix it. Until they do, they're going to be running what amounts to a big LAN.

Shaun

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (1, Flamebait)

Senior Frac (110715) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475685)

c) There is no direct way to be removed from SPEWS. You cannot contact them. You cannot explain your situation. (My situation is that we happen to have some IP addresses in this country, and have trouble reaching our customers because of it. We don't spam.)

I'll put it quite bluntly.

The reason there's no avenue to "explain your situation" is because none of the rest of us on the internet give two shits about Costa Rica's connectivity. Straight up.

You could launch Costa Rica to the moon, and it would take me 12 years to notice my World Atlas was a little bit lighter.

The lame argument that "we can't force our [national] ISP to be responsible" is total bunk. Consider all our email blocks to be documentation you can use to explain to RACSA [racsa.co.cr] of why reform is needed. Bad political decisions on your part is not going to make me pay for delivery of more spam.

Boo fucking hoo (-1)

1234567890zxcvbnm (548451) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475729)

Cry me a fucking river. Does this mean I won't be able to arrange my next Costa Rican kiddie sex tour by email? Damn.

Maybe you should move to a civilized country; one that doesn't rely on bananas and postage stamps for its whole GDP.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (3, Informative)

blowdart (31458) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475882)

c) There is no direct way to be removed from SPEWS.

Bullshit. Or are all those SPEWS: messages in news:news.admin.net-abuse.email [news] figments of my imagination?

From the spews faq [spews.org]

Q41: How does one contact SPEWS?
A41: One does not. SPEWS does not receive email - it's just an automated system and website, SPEWS and other blocklist issues can be discussed in the public forums mentioned above. The newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email (NANAE) is a good choice, and Google makes it quite easy to post messages there via the Web as M@ilGate does via email. Note that posting messages in these newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings, only the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will. Be aware that posting ones email address to any publicly viewable forum or website makes it instantly available to spammers. If you're concerned about getting spammed, change or "mung" the email address you use to post with.

So sort your spam problem, then post in nane once its sorted. Until then, don't expect a lot of us to accept your crap.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (2)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475952)



Now.. I fully support the fact that the Internet is an anarchy, that each individual is free to decide how their network will or will not accept traffic from others, yada yada yada. On that I am firm.


Actually, I would characterize the Internet as more a "community" than "anarchy". It works via a network of relationships. It does have standards - but they are really more related to technical issues and ensuring the continued functionality of that community. The community is always open to new members. But if one member wishes to behave in a way that goes against the community's standards, they will find themselves eventually ostracized. And they have only themselves to blame.


But when it comes to an ISP.. we have a problem. An ISP that subscribes to this, sure, it's their choice, but it's awfully hard to explain to the client that they have to instruct their ISP to stop using this service. And the odds of the ISP stopping? Not likely.


The ISP shouldn't have to stop using this service. You're putting effort in the wrong direction. The direction to go is YOUR ISP. Government or not, your challenge is to collect some references and explain the situation. Get them to understand that their actions are effectively cutting themselves off from the Internet.


You are the one with the sociopath in your family and its your problem to deal with. Not the community's.

Re:Speaking of antispam.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475963)

> a) The entire country's IP range is on SPEWS

Bull - discussed in Usenet and Spam-L list. Large sections of RACSA were listed, not the whole country.

> c) There is no direct way to be removed from SPEWS

Bull - places seem to be removed all the time. Why? BECAUSE THE GET RID OF THEIR SPAMMERS!!

> My situation is that we happen to have some IP addresses in this country

BFD! SPEWS is used to filter email. Get some IP addresses anyplace that is not listed. We have Aisan ISPs who use us for email servers. Go to a US ISP, one in Europe... you don't need to email out of your own country anymore.

Yes, you'll have to pay a bit more, but that's the price you pay for RACSA isn't it?

(mootish point as the Costa Rican government recently passed new regulations that allow RACSA to nuke spammers right away - SPEWS works don't it!)

Spews is a solution worse than the problem itself (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475978)

Spews is a very effective antispam solution, but the damage it causes is often worse than the problem it solves. Here are some of the problems it creates:

1. It blocks whole networks at a time, not just the spamming IP. Yes, this forces ISP's to react to spammers quickly, but how would you feel if you happen to share a class C with a spammer, and your emails get rejected for months while your ISP deals with the spammer and SPEWS? It's like living in a society where you go to jail for the crime your neighbor commits.

2. Spews is supposedly run by professionals, but they're extremely sloppy in their investigation work. People often get listed simply because their domains are used in forged email addresses and/or forged HELO headers. Anyone with a basic knowledge of SMTP knows how easily they can be forged, yet SPEWS frequently blocks domains on that basis alone.

3. SPEWS' philosophy is that once a domain is used for spamming, it's blacklisted forever. A client of ours recently bought a new domain name, but soon afterwards found his IP on the SPEWS blacklist, and his ISP shut down his servers to protect their other customers, simply because the domain was used for spamming by its previous owner. SPEWS doesn't bother to check whether the domain registration date is before or after the spam date.

4. SPEWS is run by a bunch of shady and unaccountable people. Their whois record shows a mailing address in Irkutsk, Russia, and they won't answer any emails. If you are screwed by them, the only way to get yourself removed is to post on a newsgroup and hope some anonymous hacker in Russia is going to care about your situation and deal with it promptly. If you're lucky, you get delisted a few months later, if your ISP hasn't kicked you out by then.

In short, SPEWS fights spam by exerting a heavy burden on innocent people who unknowingly become associated with spammers. Despite the hatred we all have for spammers, I would advise anyone who cherishes the democratic values of our society to stay away from SPEWS.

Re:Spews is a solution worse than the problem itse (2)

blowdart (31458) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476073)

It's like living in a society where you go to jail for the crime your neighbor commits.

No, its like paying a criminal boss who happens to employe burglars. If you're paying, you're supporting spam. Tough shit.

People often get listed simply because their domains are used in forged email addresses and/or forged HELO headers

Care to offer links or evidence to that?

SPEWS' philosophy is that once a domain is used for spamming, it's blacklisted forever

Utter bullshit. None of the mainstream spam blacklists run on a domain basis. It's done on an IP block basis.

SPEWS is run by a bunch of shady and unaccountable people.

Shady no. It's run by a group of international news admins. Unaccountable, perhaps. But when black lists keep getting sued by spammers, then what else are you going to do.

SPEWS fights spam by exerting a heavy burden on innocent people who unknowingly become associated with spammers

Unfortunately, this is the only way to get ISPs to take notice these days. SPEWS is based on collateral damage. However the fault lies with the ISPs, not spews.

would advise anyone who cherishes the democratic values of our society to stay away from SPEWS

It's my democratic right to use it or not use it. SPAM is not a right. It's not a free speech issue. You do not have a right to communicate with my servers. Oh, and remember, the internet is international. Not all of us hold your consitution so dear.

The post? (2, Funny)

rainmanjag (455094) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475463)

Anybody have a URL to the post on spam-l? And thank you to those who explained the acronyms to those of us not familiar with them or the dramatis personae...

-jag

who cares (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475476)

MAPS isn't supported/used enough for anyone to give a shit and utilize it. Blah. Next!

Re:who cares (2, Informative)

Jon_Katz (Paranoid F (578179) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475515)

Maps is used by over 5000 mail servers and ISPs [mapsllc.org] worldwide.

Re:who cares (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475588)

thats a drop in the bucket, cock gobbler.

Re:who cares (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475701)

Your link is 4-oh-4'ed! oh.. right. lots of college students runnning their own linux boxes at school are using it.... ahhh. but shit.. 5000? arent there a few million hosts out there? 5000 is far less than 1% :)

Re:like he said...who cares (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475764)

5000 sounds impressive, but there are a hell of a lot more then 5000 mail servers.

Wrong! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475479)

Gordon could ont have bought the Dul, as he was already off the maps project before he claimed he acquired it. Also, Maps Llc is a profit organization, their leader is salaried.

Re:Wrong! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475592)

did you bump your knee on your chin as you wrote your post? for all you know Gordon could have bought your mother.

WHEN!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475482)

OK... i'm starting to get a little pissed. what the fuck is holding up base-config 1.33.18 from getting into woody. One would think that debian would prefer people to actually *test* the install *before* releaseing 3.0

This is soooooooo fucking lame.

debian is garbage (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475504)

see subject for details on this post!

Why is Taco trying to directly email him anyway? (2)

Arker (91948) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475487)

If 'the DUL' or, rather, someone utilising the DUL, is preventing him from emailing a second person, that must mean that Taco is using a dialup and has no smtp server of his own to access? That seems more than a bit improbable.

Because that's how Unix email works (4, Insightful)

billstewart (78916) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475890)

Taco's probably using a Linux system, with some popular Mail Transfer Agent like Sendmail or Postfix or [3 or 4 others] that are smart enough to be able to deliver mail without needing help, like just about any other Unix machine since we started using domain names in the mid-1980s. If you're on the DUL, your main net connection is probably dialup or DSL or cable modem, so you're a MERE LUSER instead of owning a T1 all your own, but so what? You've got a computer with a Real Operating System, and there's no need to pretend you're a Windows-using couch potato that's running a mail client too dumb to deliver its own email - even if you are running a dumb client, sendmail on 127.0.0.1 fixes that problem.

In other words, Taco does have an smtp server of his own to access. On his own machine. Like he should. If you're a dialup user, it's beneficial to have an inbound mailbox server somewhere that's always connected, whether it delivers the mail to you by SMTP or POP/IMAP. But no need to do that for outbound.

The reason the DUL is helpful for blocking spammers is not because there's no legitimate reason for a dialup user to run SMTP - it's just that many of the popular clients use a relay so they don't have to handle error messages or hang out trying to deliver to slow servers or delay delivery on temporarily unavailable servers, and that many spammers abuse cheap disposable dialup accounts, but they get booted off of their ISPs' mail servers too fast to make them practical, or rate-limited, so they deliver their own email so they can reach more suckers before being squashed.

Some ISPs block outgoing Port 25 that doesn't go through their servers - really annoying if you've got more than one ISP account, and don't like having to reconfigure your machine just because you're dialing in from work or on the DSL at home instead of the other dialup.

Re:Because that's how Unix email works (0, Insightful)

User 956 (568564) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475914)

Taco's probably using a Linux system, with some popular Mail Transfer Agent like Sendmail or Postfix or [3 or 4 others] that are smart enough to be able to deliver mail without needing help, like just about any other Unix machine since we started using domain names in the mid-1980s.

Ok, but that isn't stopping Taco from getting a free yahoo/hotmail/myrealbox account, and emailing the "unreachable" Slash code developer from there. The DUL won't affect those free email services, and Taco obviously has a functioning web browser.

What's the fucking problem? Oh wait, Taco's a stubborn ass. As are you.

I guess free email isn't l33t enough for you L1nuX h4X0R3Z, even though it's FUCKING FUNCTIONAL.

Typical.

Re:Because that's how Unix email works (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3476046)

Taco's probably using a Linux system, with some popular Mail Transfer Agent like Sendmail or Postfix or [3 or 4 others] that are smart enough to be able to deliver mail without needing help, like just about any other Unix machine since we started using domain names in the mid-1980s.


And? I don't see the problem. Sendmail, as well as Postfix does offer something called a Smart Host.

This means that all mail is sent via SMTP from your local box to the smart host, which can be your ISP's mail relay or the box running slashdot, in Taco's case.

what are they trying to do? (2, Interesting)

Provincialist (572648) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475498)

Not personally knowing any of the participants, but aware of the issues involved, I had always been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Blacklists [dmoz.org] are a good technical solution to the social problem that is spam. While I knew there was some animosity between the old MAPS and the old ORBS, I had always assumed that regardless of egotism, they were doing basically the right thing. Certainly, when ORBS was sued by that spammer I was sure the judge had screwed up. [or was it MAPS that got sued? I forget; it may have been both of them] But this current action really leads me to question the motives of MAPS. Spam is only helped when someone who has spent so long fighting it is prevented from using his tools and from developing more tools. It seems that egotism or something very like it has now caused MAPS to do the wrong thing, and that's very unfortunate.

later,
Jess

Misconception...again (5, Insightful)

Dwonis (52652) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475499)

Incidentally, the DUL is currently stopping CmdrTaco from directly emailing one of the Slash coders.

Sigh. No it's not. (How many times does this need to be said.) The mail server CmdrTaco is trying to email is stopping him. The DUL is just a listing; it does no blocking.

Re:Misconception...again (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475632)

thanks for splitting conceptual hairs, ass wipe

Re:Misconception...again (2, Insightful)

Senior Frac (110715) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475697)

It's an important distinction when the collateral damage victims go whining to the press.

It reminds everyone that the administrator of the machine receiving the emails has chosen to use that list maintainer's recommendations as possible spam sources, and that they should be blocked.

Without subscribers, all spam source listings are toothless. This isn't some evil government agency blocking your email on the sly. It's sharing of information, and only as good as the maintainer's policies and reputation.

Re:Misconception...again (2)

tunah (530328) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475953)

Jeez, read between the lines! 'Directly Emailing', 'Direct marketing by email' what's the difference?

The SPAM-L post: MAPS Sues Former Employee (5, Interesting)

Seth Finkelstein (90154) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475509)

Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:40:12 -0700
Sender: Spam Prevention Discussion List
From: Nick Nicholas
Subject: COURT: MAPS Sues Former Employee and DUL Founder, Gordon Fecyk

I have been a strongly outspoken supporter of MAPS for many years.

When I was at pacbell.net I nearly had a heart attack when Paul Vixie called in 1997 to warn us that we were about to be listed in the MAPS RBL for running unsecured mail servers. But I supported his actions even then. Indeed, his call was very helpful in speeding up the bureaucracy at pacbell.net and getting the unsecured mail servers closed to relaying even more quickly. I appreciated Paul's willingness to work with us on resolving our problems.

I wanted pacbell.net to use the MAPS RBL, but instead I was instructed by management to compile my own list. I felt my meager efforts could not compare to the quality of the RBL made available by MAPS, but, unfortunately, my own wishes were overruled.

When Paul offered me the opportunity to become Executive Director of MAPS in December 1998, it was an offer I simply could not refuse, and for the next year and a half I was one of the leading cheerleaders for MAPS.

Even though I left MAPS in August 1999, it was an amicable departure. Soon afterwards I was hired as Chief Privacy Officer for a company in the direct marketing industry, and I still continued to defend MAPS against its many critics in that industry.

Last year I decided to write a book about the history of MAPS. My intent was to focus on the companies that sued MAPS and abused the legal system in order to prevent MAPS from exercising its legitimate free speech rights. I wanted to portray Paul and Dave Rand as beleaguered but slightly flawed heroes.

However, my opinion of MAPS was forever changed this past April when it decided to sue DUL founder, Gordon Fecyk, after Gordon attempted to exercise a December 1998 contract he entered into with Paul Vixie in his capacity as MAPS CEO.

My overview of this matter, as well as copies of court documents filed in the case, can be found at the following URL:

http://www.lawsuitinfo.com [lawsuitinfo.com]

It seems that MAPS has learned a great deal from the lawsuits brought against it by Harris Interactive and others, and has adopted the same slimy tactics. In particular, the affidavits filed by Margie Arbon and Anne Mitchell are full of factual errors and material misrepresentations. I will add my commentary on these affidavits at a later date.

A hearing will be held in the Manitoba court tomorrow (5/7). We will add additional info as soon as possible.

Gordon may have to sell his car in order to pay his not inconsequential legal bills. Is anyone interested in making a contribution to help Gordon with his legal expenses? If so, please send your contributions to Gordon's attorneys at the following address:

Cassidy Ramsay
385 St. Mary Avenue, 2nd Floor
Winnipeg, Manitoba R3C 0N1
CANADA

Checks or money orders should be made out to Cassidy Ramsay

Be sure to include a note with your contribution stating that it is on behalf of Gordon Fecyk in the Mail Abuse Prevention System v. Fecyk case.

All contributions will be placed in a trust fund by the law firm and used solely to cover Gordon's legal expenses.

Contributors will receive an acknowledgement from Cassidy Ramsay. However, all contributions are covered by attorney-client privilege, and thus the identities of contributors will remain anonymous. Information about contributions *cannot* be obtained by MAPS through the discovery process.

I cannot describe how much it saddens me that it has become necessary for me to bring all of these disturbing facts to light, but I think it is essential for the Internet community to be aware of what MAPS has become. MAPS is no longer devoting its energy to fighting spam and co-operating with others in that fight, but instead is suing a former employee who attempted to exercise his legitimate rights pursuant to a contract with MAPS. I find it extremely ironic that an organization which is currently soliciting donations to its own legal defense fund would now be using its limited resources to pursue litigation against a former employee.

Regards,

Nick

Re:The SPAM-L post: MAPS Sues Former Employee (2, Funny)

Citizen of Earth (569446) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475936)

Even though I left MAPS in August 1999, it was an amicable departure. Soon afterwards I was hired as Chief Privacy Officer for a company in the direct marketing industry

Darth Vader switched careers as well.

At first glance (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475511)

Did anyone else read this as:

'Who the fuck owns the DUL?'

or was it just me...

Re:At first glance (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475537)


It was just you, your retarded eyes and your retarded brain thinking anyone would care.

no Linux content (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475549)

There's nothing linux specific about this setup. He could very well be running FreeBSD. Actually, he would be better off running FreeBSD.

Imagine that... (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475565)

CmdrTaco will have to use a phone.

Interested in MAPS? Also Check out DCC... (5, Informative)

jwiegley (520444) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475566)

I've used the MAPS tools in the past to check that my mail servers are properly configured to reject relays. But for actually stopping the 20-30 spam articles I get per day nothing has worked. (We all know what those dreaded "unsubscribe" "features" really do. don't we?)

That is nothing worked until a few days ago. I recommend anybody that has spam problems, can run procmail or is in charge of a mail server running sendmail check out the "Distributed Checksum Clearinghouse" (DCC) at http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/dcc/

It took me some time to get the dcc sendmail milter dccm working correctly but, since I did, this has become my new best friend. Its catching 100% of spam targeted at me and rejecting it.

From what I know about MAPS I think its a needed service to keep ISPs in check. But it seems targeted at attacking the delivers of spam and doesn't seem to provide much to directly protect the recipients of spam mail. DCC is the only solution I've found that accurately prevents spam mail from even being delivered to myself or users. I think this is necessary because if nobody actually receives spam the spammers will starve.

So If you're like me and think spam is a rashy plague that you can't get rid of their is a cream available and it is named DCC. Check it out.

Re:Interested in MAPS? Also Check out DCC... (3, Informative)

mjh (57755) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476113)

Also checkout spamassassin [spamassasin.org] . It scans all emails and applies heuristics to the email to decide whether or not it thinks it's a spam. Each heuristic has a score. By default, any total score above 5 marks the email as a spam.

But here's the cool part. Spamassassin doesn't do anything with it. It simply marks it as a spam. Then you can use something like procmail to decide what to do with it. Me, personally, I store it into a folder called SPAM. I then configure my imap server (courier imapd [inter7.com] ) to treat that mailbox as a trashcan, and automatically delete anything in it older than 14 days.

This allows me to check if there are any stragglers that get through, but also allows me to forget about it for a couple of weeks at a time. Spamassassin has been tuned to avoid false positives. I've been using spamassassin for months. During that time, I've not had a single email that was not a spam get marked as a spam. I've had emails that were spams get marked as non-spam (false negative). Which, if there's going to be an error, that's the kind I want. I'd hate to call a real email spam, have it sent to my SPAM mailbox and automatically deleted before I read it. The good news is that not a single false positive has occurred, although a few false negatives have occurred.

So I've started using another tool to help deal with spam. It's called TMDA [sourceforge.net] . It's somewhat more complex to setup and use than spamassissin. But a brief description is that it acts like an email firewall. Outgoing messages can be replied to, but incoming messages require that a person prove that they are a person. After which they'll be allowed unrestricted access to send me email.

TMDA is much more exact than spamassassin, which is mostly complicated guessing. It successfully blocks every spam that spamassassin lets through. However, TMDA is also much more complex from an end user perspective. So it might not be for everyone. For example, I only use spamassassin on my wife's account - not TMDA because she's made it clear to me that she doesn't want to learn how to use it. I personally use both of them at the same time, and I've been 100% spam free for months. I used to get 20-30/day.

$.02

Re:Interested in MAPS? Also Check out DCC... (3, Informative)

Skapare (16644) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476121)

I want to keep spam from even so much as entering my server. How can DCC help in that case? I don't see how, being as I don't have the content to check against DCC with. Now if this check can be done during the SMTP delivery of the content, and be used to force a failure of delivery, well maybe that would work. Is this doable? Last time I looked at the DCC site, it wasn't even close to this.

What a surprise... they're unpleasant people! (5, Insightful)

brooks_talley (86840) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475591)

Anyone who has worked with / for / against MAPS knows that they are primarily interested in fighting. Their original purpose was to fight spam, but they're just as into fighting folks they don't like and each other. As far as I can tell, they really don't care *who* they fight, as long as there's lots of name calling and moral outrage involved.

MAPS is a joke. A classic case of the old saying about the pavement on the road to hell, and also a classic case of people thinking there's a technical solution to a social problem.

-b

Re:What a surprise... they're unpleasant people! (1)

blueHal (9304) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475703)

So very very very true. Wish I had moderator points to give you your props, brooks_talley.

I had an email exchange once with one of em, and I've never seen such animosity before or sense. It was terribly disturbing. I'm glad this is coming out and the community is reacting with disgust.

PGP signed message? (1)

dmiller (581) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475659)

Fecyk quotes [chickenboner.com] a PGP signed agreement. Unfortunately, he (or perhaps his mail client) has stripped off the signature itself.

The signature on the argument would carry more weight if he left the signature intact so others could verify it from themselves.

Get a contract (1)

cameldrv (53081) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475748)

The message sent by vixie says that a contract will be drawn up, and outlines some of its features. It is not a contract in itself. Unfortunately, it is very easy to not worry about such things when a business relationship is starting up because everything is fine and you don't want to make the other party feel you don't trust them. Unfortunately if things go bad, all you have left is PGP signed vague emails instead of signed and notarised contracts. IANAL.

DUL 'stopping mail'? (2)

sloanster (213766) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475661)

"Incidentally, the DUL is currently stopping CmdrTaco from directly emailing one of the Slash coders."

um, no - in this case, use your ISP's mail server.

Problem solved.

Related discussions in Usenet (0)

PEN15 (571763) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475684)

Nick also posted his message to the Usenet newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email. There are some interesting comments in that thread, you can view it here [google.com] .

chickenboner spam spew 5-5-0 (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475702)

Brunner Went Down to Florida
By: Gordon Fecyk
Inspired By: Kostadis Roussos' "Devil went down to Sunlab"
Parody of Devil Went Down to Georgia by The Charlie Daniels Band (BMI) Brunner went down to Florida,
He was looking for an ISP.
He was in a bind, 'cause he's off line
And was willing to pay the fee.
When he came across John from MegaPOP
With bandwidth real hot,
And Brunner jumped on the Popsite bench and said,
"Boy, let me tell you what!" I bet you didn't know it
But I'm the king of spam and spew.
And if you care to take a dare
I'll make a bet with you.
Now you run a pretty good server, boy
But give the devil his due.
I'll bet Avalanche Pro against your soul
'Cause you can't stop 'Spamdrew.' The boy said, "My name's Johnny
And it might be a sin
But I'll take your bet, your gonna regret
'Cause I'm the best that's ever been." Johnny, lock your dial-ups and start working them real hard
'Cause hell's broke loose in Popsite
And the devil deals the cards
And if you win you get to stop his new Avalanche Pro
But if you lose, Brunner gets your soul! Then Brunner opened up NT and said,
"I'll start this show."
And fire flew from his fingertips
as he watched his Avalanche load. And he sent his spew across the 'net
But it was blocked with "5-5-6".
Then a band of Chickenboners joined in
And it was blocked again, like this... (instrumental) When Brunner finished Johnny said,
"Well you're pretty good ol' son!
But we work with the Dial-up User List
let me show you how it's done!" Avalanche dead, run DUL run.
Devil's running NT Workstation.
Chickenboner spam spew 5-5-0.
Stop the Devil's junk mail, Go DUL Go! (fiddle solo) And Brunner bowed his head
Because he knew that he'd been beat.
And he tossed his Avalanche Pro
in the trash, and cried "Lawsuite!"
Johnny said, "Devil, just come on back here
If you ever wanna try again.
I done told you once,
You son-of-a-bitch,
I'm the best that's ever been!" He mailed: Avalanche dead, run DUL run.
Devil's running NT Workstation.
Chickenboner spam spew 5-5-0.
Stop the Devil's junk mail, Go DUL Go! (solo finale)

Re:chickenboner spam spew 5-5-0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475734)

it's funny mod it up.. God whats wrong with you people?

on really fixing email (2)

drDugan (219551) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475714)

I can't help but look at these databases as a
too-little, too-late patch to a broken
system. My long term average for spam is now 7.2
spams/day -- EVEN with working to try and
prevent it. Why should I have to pay some
company more to track people who spam?

Can someone please present a way to overhaul
the email system so that it works the way it
was intended? Call it something else --
something new -- direct, personal, intentional
communication. (Cripes, they even have
spambots now on IRC and IM too.)

I'm groping here -- but what are the real
steps we can take so that end users
don't need to spend the money/time to defend
against unwanted commercial mail?

I'm thinking along the lines of new rfps for
the way mail servers transport and
authenticate mail / requiring digital signatures
from your ISP / elimination of mail from
spoofed IPs / elimination of all anonymous mail,
even...

where is the hangup in making (i.e. forcing
technologically, not leagally) spam
nonexistant?

it will never be nonexistent (2)

ZxCv (6138) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475899)

I don't think there will ever be a truly viable technical solution to spam. Spam is not so much a technical problem as it is a social problem. And we all know about trying to cure social problems with technical solutions. It's the same as with digital piracy--implement some new system or some new restriction and those that it was intended to take care of will be the ones that find a way to get around it.

Not copyrightable (1)

cameldrv (53081) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475759)

From my understanding of the Feist decision, it is quite possible that this list is not even copyrightable. Unfortunately it would take a lot of money to make such an argument, as it would establish new case law. IANAL.

Quick summary (3, Interesting)

enigma48 (143560) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475828)

MAPS might have a few good points but in my wholly uninformed point of view, they seem to deserve to lose.

To sum up 3 years:

Gordon Fecyk: Hey Paul, here is the DUL - I'll even indemnify you of any damages because of the list.

Paul Vixie: Great - I'll make you the maintainer of the DUL and we'll draw something up saying you can regain ownership of the DUL for $10 (the contract minimum in the US at the time). MAPS will take the good and the bad - all the publicity and all the legal trouble associated with it. When you want to leave, you can take the DUL back for $10.

forward 3 years

GF to Dave Rand/MAPS: I'm leaving. Here is $10. I have a recent copy of the DUL. I own it. You can use it free for a little while and we'll work out a contract after that. I'll even let you have first change to negotiate for it.

MAPS to GF: Lawsuit.

MAPS argues in the lawsuit that GF doesn't own the DUL and even if he did, he couldn't maintain it properly on his own, it causes legal issues with MAPS (privacy issues), saying that he owns it hurts MAPS, etc.

If I was MAPS, I'd be protecting my income sources as strongly as possible. Not having followed the MAPS project/organization much and seeing they still accept donations, I would be worried too.

The right thing to do would be to honour the agreement between Paul Vixie and Gordon Fecyk. If it bankrupts the organization, it is a sad thing but something could be worked out. (eg: cheap licencing - Gordon seems *very* reasonable)

The wrong thing is to fight for your life and not even try to do the right thing first.

Then again, if the DUL is a major source of income for them, I can't seem them caring much about doing the right thing. Morals are nice but survival comes first I suppose.

My morals suggested I check google for a cached version of the DUL and post the link but it looks like google didn't get it in time. Anyone have links?

Jeff

The problem is, Gordon's "contract" isn't (3, Insightful)

TekPolitik (147802) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475830)

It's quite clearly a pre-contractual negotiation. It clearly doesn't even contemplate acceptance in those terms. If there's no written contract, the thing Gordon points to as a contract would be evidence of what the terms are, but not conclusive evidence. If there's a written contract somewhere else, then unless those terms are in it, Gordon's out of luck.

Re:The problem is, Gordon's "contract" isn't (2)

TekPolitik (147802) | more than 11 years ago | (#3475900)

Of course there's more - there doesn't appear at any stage to be a transfer of ownership to MAPS, so it appears unlikely that MAPS *ever* owned the DUL. It appears what they got when they hired Gordon is his services plus the use of the DUL.

So here's what needs to be shown: (1) by MAPS, an unequivocal statement by Gordon assigning ownership of the DUL to MAPS; (2) by Gordon (but only if MAPS can show (1)), a contract granting him the option to buy back.

Neither of these things appears to have been shown.

I think Gordon should make a counter-claim for the $10 as money paid under a material mistake of fact.

Hold everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475832)

the DUL is currently stopping CmdrTaco from directly emailing one of the Slash coders

Oh my, I didn't realise this problem with DUL was so serious!

How do I figure out IP blocks for entire countries (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3475892)

I'd like to block China, Japan and Korea.

Re:How do I figure out IP blocks for entire countr (2)

LWolenczak (10527) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476081)

I would like to block, China, Korea, and Singipore.

Re:How do I figure out IP blocks for entire countr (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3476109)

Use spews.

Re:How do I figure out IP blocks for entire countr (2)

Skapare (16644) | more than 11 years ago | (#3476126)

Download the data from the APNIC, TWNIC, KRNIC, etc. FTP sites, convert to your mailer's file format, and let it use that to look up each IP address. That's what I do for my Postfix mail servers.

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