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Two Helpings of WINE

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the will-code-for-license-revisions dept.

Wine 210

Mister Snee writes: "As of the latest WINE release, the developer who's been working on the ActiveMovie and DirectShow code for the last nine months suddenly pulled it all from the source tree, citing fears of trouble under the DMCA." And an anonymous reader submits: "TransGaming Tecnologies is offering much of its own proprietary code up for exchange if Codeweavers are willing to relicense some of their code under the less restrictive (more free) X11 licence (eg contributing it to the X11 fork of wine, Rewind). Details can be found at this post by CEO Gavriel State. This all came from the Codeweavers-dominated recent licence change (to the LGPL) which was done in an attempt to steal TransGaming's Direct3D code and force them to open up all their work (thus have no means to make money)." Your attitude toward these license machinations may vary; Codeweavers seems unlikely to oppose people making money from WINE development.

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wine confusion (4, Insightful)

Drunken_Jackass (325938) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501845)

Someone should start naming their wine distributions - Burgundy, Pino Grigio, etc. So i can tell who the hell is contributing to what!

Re:wine confusion (1)

groundhog00 (578557) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502113)

heh. How about beer names for the distros. The Wine names you are giving are for white-colar folks. I prefer stuff like Coors, Miller, and Colt45. Just my $.02

Re:wine confusion (1)

peddrenth (575761) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502339)

I prefer stuff like Coors, Miller, and Colt45

You ought to try some real beers. They even have better names. Wychwood's Hobgoblin, CircleMaster and Back Witch would be a good place to start.

Page not wide enough. Restart IE. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501851)


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Wow.. this was one way to put it (5, Insightful)

GauteL (29207) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501853)

"which was done in an attempt to steal TransGaming's Direct3D code and force them to open up all their work (thus have no means to make money)."

The licensing change was made because the Wine-project didn't really want "leeches". That is, companies using their work, without contributing back. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with stealing.

If this hurts TransGaming, then that is their problem, not the Wine-projects.

PS! I actually like WineX, and I am a subscriber, but they have no universial right to use all the work of the Wine-project unless the contributors think that is ok (stated with a license). If they succeed in "swapping code" that is ok. Bitching about not being able to use LGPL-code, is not.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2, Insightful)

dinivin (444905) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501906)

If they succeed in "swapping code" that is ok. Bitching about not being able to use LGPL-code, is not.


Some might argue that changing the licensing of the project after a couple of years of development, because the developers didn't think things through when they began, is not OK either.

Dinivin

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501920)

Why not? That code was mit X11 like. They can do whatever with the code they want. When people use BSD like license, they just don't know what they have given up. Now those who contribute to Wine feels the pain and did something.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2)

dinivin (444905) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502105)

When people use BSD like license, they just don't know what they have given up.

Really? How can they possibly not know? It seems quite obvious, from reading the license, what a developer would be giving up.

Dinivin

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2, Flamebait)

clifyt (11768) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502184)

This is EXACTLY what one of the articles the other day was about. GPL is about religion...you GPL everything because GNU/Jeebus says to. BSD is about wanting your project to take life after you release it with no other restrictions than to let others know where it came from (I believe the BSD is the one that RMS hated because he didn't consider it free because it required copyright statements to be left in...though every damn GPL software has to have copyrights left in...but they refer to his religion...)

I've released software over the years that I had no more use out of...I sometimes release them GPL other time just say hell with it and put it into the public domain...no license, do what the hell ya want with it. BSD allows you to take something and GPL the results under a second license, so as a programmer, you could have easily forked it and set up your own GPL/BSD version of the software with your own team (though it sounds like Wine beat ya to the punch).

Some of us care only for getting software out...we don't care about if someone is proffiting off of it 'unfairly'. We care that someone is using it...

clif

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (5, Interesting)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501923)

The licence change is not retroactive, what they're doing is saying "subsequent changes will be covered by the LGPL, we can't do anything about earlier code, even if we wanted to."

TransGaming is whining that it can't use (within their prefered business model) the efforts of those programmers currently working on the project. So this isn't a simple case of changing the licencing of the project after two years, it's a case of the current code having a licence reflecting what the current programmers want.

In my view, TransGaming still has plenty of options: write the damned modifications to WINE made since new changes were covered by the new licence itself, negotiate a new licence with the programmers who have made the changes, or go with the flow. Anything else looks like the spoiled kid who takes his ball away.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502051)

TransGaming is whining that it can't use (within their prefered business model) the efforts of those programmers currently working on the project.

The license was changed because CodeWeavers (another company) whined about TransGaming. I guess the louder whiner wins?

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502086)

No, the company actively involved in free and open development of WINE wins. Because they're some of the programmers.

share and you get more (3, Insightful)

_|()|\| (159991) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502416)

Some might argue that changing the licensing after a couple of years ... is not OK either.

How can you argue that TransGaming's proprietary fork is okay, but proceeding with the LGPL is not? You can't have it both ways. WINE is not some corporate charity, so the developers chose a license they're more comfortable with.

TransGaming leveraged a million lines of code, the result of almost ten years of development, in the development of its proprietary WineX product. Now TransGaming wants to trade some of its code for LGPLed code. I can forgive some WINE developers for feeling like TransGaming hasn't made good on its previous trade. Alexandre summarized the WINE sentiment as follows:

What you are doing is you come to the party, you eat and drink from what others have brought, but when people want some of your stuff you charge them for it. And when they complain you ask them to start charging for their stuff too, and transform the party into a shopping mall.
That said, if swapping code improves WINE, I'm all for it. In fact, it validates the decision to go LGPL.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (5, Insightful)

xer.xes (4181) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501966)

Maybe we can mod the story itself to -1 :).

Of course most of the stories here on slashdot are kind of biased (towards open software), but this one is really bad (and in the wrong (non-open) direction this time).

Who says you can't make money with open software? Ximian does it, Codeweavers (with *tada* Wine) does it, Eazel did it (they spend more than they made however :)), I do it, lots of other people do it!

Codeweavers Crossover isn't Open Soruce either. (2)

Nailer (69468) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502065)

Codeweavers (with *tada* Wine) does it

Cool. Where can I download the source to the Wine / Netscape Plugin API link? Oh wait, I can't. Codeweavers make great products, fund Open Source, and give much of their work back to Wine. But not all of it, and they certainly don't do it from selling Open Source software. Ximian, I doubt, is even profitable.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (1, Flamebait)

On Lawn (1073) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502082)

Yeah, I've noticed Taco going that direction lately also. The most recent case being when in synical gesturing equated KDE and Gnome to Windows as examples of Browsers integrated into Operating systems. There was a time when he was smarter than to call KDE and Gnome an operating system.

I think it started a long time ago when he wanted to get his Scanner working with Linux (for scanning Anime Cells I think.) After some attempts to get it to work, he found out that his only hope was being thwarted by a bunch of well meaning but rude OSS extortion emailers who were badgering the scanner company.

Since then, he's taken an increasingly squinty-eyed view at the OSS audience as those same few have tried to thwart, maim and destroy his creation. A creation that ironicaly was made for "open" audience participation. Their efforts of late have gotten more desperate, paranoid, and rampant.

Add to that RMS requiring Taco to call this site GNU/Slashdot and where can you turn? Back to the comfortable world where all this mess was closed and swept under the carpet. Customers didn't interact with the products becuase producers didn't care to listen anyway. No shouting, complaining, or moaning to be heard. What a peaceful world that must seem these days to this abused open-source hero.

So Codeweavers moves to a liscence that definately effects a competing(?) company in an adverse way, with more squabbling and name calling. Its understandable to see why Taco would identify more with the people being screwed with than the people wanting fairness.

Such is the curiously misapplied "free as in ${yada}" debate that really makes for fodder for corporate comic strips, confusion/derision for Joe Sixpack, and fuel for end-users who think Open Source means the best contribution they can make is as a manager and not a programmer.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (1)

lingenfr (62184) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502322)

Hunh? This one wandered down the path and fell off the ledge. Slashdot is a great example of the piece of human nature that makes us want to be in send mode more than receive. The story that I READ equating KDE and Gnome to Windows was related to testimony offered by a M$ funded long hair who did not know his butt from a hole in the ground. He equated the three and backed off under direct questioning. I believe that the slashdotter who posted the story made sport of the long hair (I believe Elzinga was his name, maybe not).

Bottom line, read the story, read the posts, engage your brain, then respond if you have something to contribute. Carping at the slashdot team is fun, but not relevant to this story.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2)

On Lawn (1073) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502466)

Slashdot is a great example of the piece of human nature that makes us want to be in send mode more than receive.

True, and in interesting point. I think that encapsulates one side of the token of much of what I was saying. The downside is people like you describe in your post although we might not agree on whether that describes me or not.

The slashdotter's responce you refer to was not as interesting as Taco's who said "Basically he doesn't understand what GNOME and KDE are, and since we're all holier-than-thou know-it-alls around here, we might as well laugh at Microsoft's expense ;)".

Note the tone of disdain towards the community, although this doesn't go as far as to equate KDE and Gnome as OS's as I said before. Few have the perspective of the OS mob that Taco does, and comparing and contrasting his views with Rusty's always makes for interesting discussion.

But back to the point, in essence I'm not carping on the Slashdot team. Its unfortunate that you take it that way. In fact, I'm agreeing with their sentiment. Most of Open Source is a wonderful thing, used as an example of cooperative economies and the future of progressive movements by David Brin and others.

But without self-policing becomes a socially devalued rant by people who want to be Open Source Managers but not Open Source Programmers.

So as my parting shot, I invite you to look beyond the fashionably defined lines of Open Source combat to see a very interesting evolutionary process, and the roles people have and will play in them.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2)

iamplasma (189832) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502092)

If they wanted to do that, then LGPL wasn't the best idea. One of the other proposed licences was a time-delayed GPL, which IMHO would have been much better. Basically, a developer could use all the wine code, as long as they released their additions within a certain amount of time. That way developers like transgaming could still make money from it, but had to give back their code in the end. What was wrong with that?

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (1)

peddrenth (575761) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502355)

"time-delayed GPL"

So is it possible for us to restore 10-year copyrights that way?

"Copyright 2002, OJW. This program may be considered public-domain after 20 May 2012"

The claim of the LGPL's effect is bogus anyway (5, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502220)

The LGPL does not prevent proprietary additions the way the GPL does. They can be static linked, too. So it would not do anything to the Direct3D work. And the "stealing" claim is entirely specious.

If the WINE team wants to avoid leeches, they need some more license consultation.

Bruce

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (2)

subsolar2 (147428) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502315)

I agree that the author of this article seems to be a more than a bit slanted. I happen to agree that the change to LGPL is a good thing since I don't see Lindows contributing back and that is a bad thing for the Wine project.

Yes the GPL/LGPL is almost a religion, but I beleive that it's the right of all computer users to not be forced into software serfdon to a single vendor. The GPL & LGPL does this where the X11 and BSD licences don't ensure this. Both allow fot the Microsoftesque embrade & extend which is a very bad thing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Transgaming wanting to swap code with the Wine group. Both sides gain from the trade.

You are so WRONG!~!! (2)

HanzoSan (251665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502331)


WineX DOES contribute back. They contribute back after YOU contribute to them by subscribing.

Do you honestly think development is free? Unlike Codeweavers, Transgaming doesnt have unlimited cash to fund development.

Transgaming develops shouldnt be forced to release all their code until theres enough subscribers to pay for development of new code. IF you want to force them to release all their code, what you are doing is putting them out of business.

CodeWeavers is doing this to kill the competition. They also are trying to get rid of Lindows. This is obvious from anyone on the outside.

Swapping code is what should be done, I dont think transgaming has complained about not being able to use LGPL code, they complain that CodeWeavers switched the license in an attempt to put them out of business.

THAT is believeable.

CodeWeavers is on the side of CodeWeavers, Lindows and Transgaming care more about Wine.

If CodeWeavers cared about Wine they would do whats best for the Wine users, and thats to have as much code completed as possible under ANY license. I support the GPL, but I want games to work in Wine, and I am subscribed to transgaming, why ruin Transgaming?! They have done ALOT!!!

Codeweavers has done alot, but why should I be forced to pick sides? They should be working together.

Lindows is new in this, but give them a chance.

The License Change was a strategic attack.

Re:Wow.. this was one way to put it (1)

emn-slashdot (322299) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502496)

If you want to use LGPL code in your project of commercial/GPL/ETC license, it is fairly easy to make the code into a library(if it isn't already), release it as LGPL, then use the library in your project. Isn't that the use the LGPL was originally designed for?

DMCA? (2)

jaavaaguru (261551) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501858)

They're wrapping an API around some existing binary code for the MPlayer stuff, aren't they? Hence the reason it only works on the processor architecture that Windows Media Player works on. This is hardly a copyright issue, or an encryption issue is it? If the writers of the code they're wrapping hteir API around are bothered about it, it's just like, say, Microsoft being bothered about you using alternative software to read a word document, or something equally silly. Hmmm... come to think of it, they probably would be bothred by that!

Re:DMCA? (3, Interesting)

DustMagnet (453493) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501942)

I'm just guessing, but I think that this has something to do with Microsoft's Digital Rights Management. The author says, "and there are some other reasons I don't want to write... "

What would be the problem he can't mention? I think the problem he found is an hole in mplayer's DRM. Just recently Microsoft argued before the courts that releasing a full API would let people do bad things [slashdot.org] .

Real Media has had this problem for a while. Of course if Microsoft wrote code more professionally this wouldn't be a problem.

Re:DMCA? (1)

peddrenth (575761) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501978)

So why not publish the offending source code on a page not accessible to US citizens, and let the rest of the world play with it? We don't have DMCA, yet somehow we still have to abide by it?

Re:DMCA? (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502145)

Maybe because the Internet interpret censorship and routes around it, thus pretty much assuring that some non-American with access to the page would immediately mirror it on a webserver that didn't restrict American access. The original author is still the original author and thus must fear for his life if his code is out there.

Re:DMCA? (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502279)

I will document this example for Rep. Boucher as an example of the chilling effect of DMCA.

Bruce

Re:DMCA? (1)

peddrenth (575761) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502366)

Wow. A celebrity on Slashdot.

Mod-point wasting post! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501861)

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
8/88888\8888888888888\888888888888/8888\8888888
|8888888|8888888888888\8888888888|888888|888888
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8\8888888|8/8888888/88\\\888--__8\\8888888:8888
88\888888\/888_--~~8888888888~--__|8\88888|8888
888\888888\_-~88888888888888888888~-_\8888|8888
0000\_00000\00000000_.--------.______\|000|0000
000000\00000\______//0_0___0_0(_(__>00\000|000 0
0000000\000.00C0___)00______0(_(____>00|00/000 0
0000000/\0|000C0____)/ \0(_____>00|_/00000
000000/0/\|000C_____) |00(___>000/00\0000
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0000|0\0000\____)000`----000--'0000000000000|00
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000|0000000000000|0000/ \00\00000000000|0
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`88888888|8888888888888|88888888\|8888888|88888
8\8888888|8/8888888/88\\\888--__8\\8888888:8888
88\888888\/888_--~~8888888888~--__|8\88888|8888
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0000\_00000\00000000_.--------.______\|000|0000
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88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 [goatse.cx]
8/88888\8888888888888\888888888888/8888\8888888
|8888888|8888888888888\8888888888|888888|888888 123456789012345678
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`88888888|8888888888888|88888888\|8888888|88888
8\8888888|8/8888888/88\\\888--__8\\8888888:8888
88\888888\/888_--~~8888888888~--__|8\88888|8888 123456789012
888\888888\_-~88888888888888888888~-_\8888|8888
0000\_00000\00000000_.--------.______\|000|0000
000000\00000\______//0_0___0_0(_(__>00\000|000 0
a0000000\000.00C0___)00______0(_(____>00|00/000 0
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000000/0/\|000C_____) |00(___>000/00\0000
00000|000(000_C_____)\______/00//0_/0/00000\000
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0000|0\0000\____)000`----000--'0000000000000|00
0000|00\_0000000000___\ /_0000000000_/0|0 asdasdasdasdasd
000|00000000000000/0000| |00\000000000000| alsjdhkjdhkajhakhqwe
000|0000000000000|0000/ \00\00000000000|0
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66|6666666666|666666666| |6666666|666666666| jwqhrowuerir

Re:Mod-point wasting post! (-1)

stallo (575157) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501870)

cudos for spreading the goatse

What's the last tarball with the code? (2, Informative)

acceleriter (231439) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501868)

I have to add a copy to my "suppressed" directory tree. This is just what the WINE project needs. A fork to a non-U.S. (and probably non-E.U., eventually) nation brought on by the mere implied threat of legal action from evil "intellectual" "property" barons.

Mod-point wasting post! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501869)

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There are some specialty lubes designed for anal sex that include an anesthetic to numb the woman's sensation and make anal sex less painful. We'd advise against these products. The simple fact is, pain is a way of your body telling you that something's wrong. If you're in pain during anal sex, you need to focus on solving the root problems, not anesthetizing yourself so it's easier to endure.

Tip #3: Start Small

Simply put, a penis is an awful big to be the first thing you stick up someone's butt. Better to start with something smaller and work your way up. Fingers are an excellent beginning point. Use one finger, then two, to initiate your partner into the mysteries of anal penetration. Try it while performing oral sex for an extra thrill. Be sure not to forget the lube, and you might also want to wear latex gloves.

As your partner gets used to your fingers, you might graduate to a butt plug or a small dildo. Dildos are available in all shapes and sizes. Go shopping together to get one she thinks she can handle. Remember, though, don't put the dildo into the vagina after putting it into the anus. The safest way is to put a condom on the dildo before using it, and to wash it thoroughly immediately after.

Mod-point wasting post! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501873)

THE CUCUMBER AND BEST FRIEND SESSION

Hey hey, Rob Malda (CmdrTaco) here. I have a story in the high school section about my first time, which was with my little brother's hottie friend a couple of months ago.

Anyway, as with most of us guys, masturbation has always been a big part of my life. Ever since I can remember, I've been choking the chicken on a daily basis. Starting puberty at 11, I've masturbated at least once a day ever since. If I miss a day, then I more than make up for it the next time. So, masturbating at least 7 times a week for the past 6 years or so, (I'm now 17), that adds up to a fair amount of cum ejaculated from my ball sac!

One of my favourite things to do while wanking is to stick phallic shaped objects up my ass. These have included my fingers, dildoes, cucumbers and anything basically resembling a cock!

Laying spread-eagled on my bed one day, slowly stroking my uncut 6.5" dick, I massaged my hairless balls between my fingers, moaning loudly. I reached under my bed, feeling for my newly purchased friend, Mr. Cucumber...

Finding the vegetable, I grabbed the lube and slowly lubed it up, spreading some on my expectant asshole. Thinking of what lay ahead, I slid a finger up my puckered boy hole. Then two. After adding a third, I thought it was enough so I set about getting the cucumber ready again.

Rubbing my lubed up swollen knob sent shivers of delight down my back. Doing that was gonna make me cum if I didn't stop! My balls lobbed from side to side with the sudden pick up of pace with which I was beating my meat. I picked up the cucumber and placed the rounded end against my hole, feeling myself opening up for the glorious pleasure maker. Slipping it in sent huge ripples of delight through me. I slowly slid the vegetable in and out, all the time jerking off. After a few minutes of furious beating and fucking, I was very close to cumming.

"Knock, knock...," was all I heard before my best friend Hemos barged in with an armful of school books.

"Whoa! What the hell?" was his shocked response to my little bit of exhibitionism, before bursting into a fit of laughter.

With my gorgeous best friend watching, a cucumber lodged up my ass and my frantically jacking off, it only took me about ten seconds more to burst forth with my sticky white juice. A huge glob flew at Hemos and landed at his feet, before I threw my legs in the air, with the rest of my cum landing on my chest and face.

With Hemos's raucous laughter still in my ears, I slowly pulled my cock, easing the last remaining drops of cum out, putting my fingers to my lips.

"Man, that's fuckin' sick, eating your own cum," he said, grinning.

"Yeah, well, I like the taste," I smiled, "and don't deny you don't do it!" I said, before wiping my finger over each drop of cum on my body and taking it to my hungry mouth.

Hemos continued laughing and started walking out.

"Meet you out front in 5," he said, "give you some time to clean up."

He strolled out, still shaking his head and laughing.

I was very satisfied. Although I have no doubts that Hemos was totally straight, it didn't hurt to fantasise about my tanned and gorgeous friend. His face and body are a recurring image in my masturbatory fantasies.

Re:Mod-point wasting post! (-1)

The Anime Troll (577873) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501926)

This post has been nominated for Least Obscene CmdrTaco Anal Post of Spring 2002. Good job wasting that mod point.

Meanwhile .... (2)

AftanGustur (7715) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501877)


Someone at Redmond has a satisfactory smile on his face ...

Re:Meanwhile .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502006)

Pirate Bill Gates can wipe that smile off his pie in the face. Windows is a rip off and extension of other peoples code. MIT had windows back in the 80s and Apple had been the first to make the interface easy to use for kids of course Microsoft stole and bastarized the Apple GUI and tool those kids writing apple script and turned them into VB Script Kiddies. We have now come full circle and we will see who is left standing Big Hint: Ever hear of Pakard Bell who screwed customers for years well one day the fat lady sang and no more Parkard Bell. Microsoft gone out of business NT shops left holding the bag Stock Holders pissed lost all their investment in con artist Bill Gates and Microshaft. http://www.billparish.com for Bill Gates financial fraud update. MacOSX based on BSD and mach kernel is going to help linux in that all those commercial apps will be easy to port from MacOSX to Linux. In fact it is going to help the freebsd's too. You will see Apple support more then one processor soon. Darwin runs on intel and is the core of MacOSX. Looks like a lot of people put off by Linux through FUD will have no problem moving over to MacOSX which will give them a Unix Foundation to move on over to Linux. No one is moving over to Windoze and everyone is looking for a solution to convert their apps and systems away from Bill Gates Crashware. WINE will soon have the APIS if European Union and the United States Government Get Their Way in their action against Microsoft. WINE gets better with time.

Re:Meanwhile .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502034)

You appear to be some sort of Apple fanboy. Remind me again who was it who went for a "visit" to Xerox PARC and saw the GUI they had there? Do you know who Doug Englebert is (Probably not)?

Engelbert invented the concept of the GUI, the people he worked with went to Xerox to develop it farther, Steve Jobs saw it and cloned it for Apple, and Bill Gates saw the Lisa & Macintosh and went about creating Windows. Big deal.

Re:Meanwhile .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502091)

MIT had the GUI before Xerox. Apple was the first to take that GUI pakage it and market it to the general public. The concept of GUI was discussed and worked in Universitys back in the 60's but was not released to the general public. The Professors wanted to keep secret their code. If you follow Unix History back to the mainframe punch card days your average Joe Geek could not get access to the Mainframe. Well in the 70s Joe Geek got fed up and developed a kit you had to assemble yourself and that was the first PC. Apple did not invent X but they did find a way to take it and mass market and make the platform available to kids. Apple is doing the right thing moving to BSD unix mach core and this can only help development for apps on Linux. By the way some of Apples people where the ones at MIT who developed X windows. Apple needs to open up their specs for their hardware and SUN does too. Darwin is Apples OpenSource MacOSX it runs on Intel. Apple is not perfect but they are trying to do things right and MacOSX can only be a plus for Linux.

Re:Meanwhile .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502174)

MIT had the GUI before Xerox.

Say, really?! Hey, would that be anything to do with Doug Engelbert, who I mentioned several times in the original post? The man who invented the GUI? No shit?

If you follow Unix History back to the mainframe punch card days your average Joe Geek could not get access to the Mainframe.

No, the "average Joe Geek" was busy on the TX-0, PDP-1 and PDP-6. Why would they want to touch an IBM 704/709/7049 or UNIVAC when they had a PDP?

Well in the 70s Joe Geek got fed up and developed a kit you had to assemble yourself and that was the first PC.

No, that was the first Intel 8080 based "computer". In this case, "Joe Geek" was a company called MITS, who used to make calculators and saw a quick buck in kit computers.

Apple is nothing to do with "making computers available to kids" and everything to do with Steve Jobs making money. Steve Wozniak was the guy with the skill and the soldering iron. Steve Jobs is in the same league as Bill Gates; they both hung out at Homebrew and they both got into the business to make money. The only difference is, Steve Jobs hasn't written a snotty letter calling his users theives yet.

So, just undo the damage. (4, Interesting)

Performer Guy (69820) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501894)

How can someone pull the code like this? There must be a copy, heck it might even remain in the cvs database, put it back in there, and if the project leads don't want it in then fork the project. This is exactly why we like the license the way it is, so this sort of thing can't be done unilaterally to a project you rely on.

Re:So, just undo the damage. (2)

martinflack (107386) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502068)

There's something to be said, however, for respect of the original coder's wishes, in the open source community.

Re:So, just undo the damage. (2)

gotan (60103) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502160)

Most of the code is probably in the last tarball (20020411) the diff to 20020509 contains the changes (in a reversible form), so it's sufficient to pull the latest diff (especially if you have the latest sources), and do a 'patch -fR -p1' with it to get the 'dlls/quartz' dir which probably contains most of the pulled code. Then you can also draw source-rpms before 20020509. Maybe you can also roll back the CVS-tree (didn't look). The code is still all over the place. Since it's GPL it should be (standard IANAL disclaimer) no problem to pick it up from the original author.

But then there is the question if one should really ignore the authors wishes in that way (OTOH, if you contact him privately, maybe he agrees that development of his work should go on, and feels safe enough from litigation having made the effort to pull the code). The main problem is though: The code will probably become worthless over time if not maintained, so it is not enough to simply put the code back, but there also needs to be someone to maintain and develop it (and take the same risk as the original author to be sued).

LGPL. (3, Interesting)

saintlupus (227599) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501902)

This all came from the Codeweavers-dominated recent licence change (to the LGPL) which was done in an attempt to steal TransGaming's Direct3D code and force them to open up all their work (thus have no means to make money).

Now, I'm not license ninja like some of the people on here, but I thought the whole _point_ of the LGPL was that it could be linked to or used without the linking source having to be opened. I was under the impression that was the main difference between the LGPL (Lesser?) and the regular one.

Anyone care to correct me, please?

--saint

Re:LGPL. (1)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501945)

yeah but in this case the folks at transgaming want library in question to be closed, where you are talking about the binary, linking to a library, being closed. lgpl and gpl stuff cannot link to closed binaries i believe. so the rest of wine cannot use the transgaming stuff unless they release it under a different license.

Re:LGPL. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502018)

lgpl and gpl stuff cannot link to closed binaries i believe.

You believe wrong. For Gods sake, will people around here actually read the licencses they are discussing before they decide to comment on them?

Re:LGPL. (2)

Dwonis (52652) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502151)

gpl and gpl stuff cannot link to closed binaries i believe.

Nope. Please read the GPL [fsf.org] and the LGPL [fsf.org] before commenting on the issues surrounding them.

Re:LGPL. (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502271)

What you said. Geez. Is our own team starting to believe the Microsoft FUD?

Re:LGPL. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501948)

Sure they can link against it, but they cannot modify it without having to release their changes. Under the X11 style license they could just take the code and do what they wanted with it.

Re:LGPL. (5, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502229)

Yes, you are correct. The entire premse of the story is bogus, LGPL would do nothing to hinder proprietary additions.

Bruce

CmdrTaco is a flag desecrator and Anti-Delawarian! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501925)

As noted on the Smithsonian Institution's site [si.edu] , the first official American flag had thirteen stars and thirteen stripes, each representing one of the thirteen original states.

The flag icon for Slashdot's 'United States' section [slashdot.org] is missing its first stripe - the stripe that represents Delaware, the first state admitted to the Union. While a simple oversight could be forgiven, it should be known from here on out that Slashdot is in fact aware of the missing stripe, and even worse, refuses to do anything about it! [sf.net]

This vulgar flag desecration and rabid anti-Delawarism must be put to a stop. Let the Slashdot crew know that we will not accept a knowingly mutilated flag or the insinuation that Delawarians deserve to be cut out of the union. I ask you, what has Delaware done to deserve this insolence, this wanton disregard, this bigotry?

This intentional disregard of a vital national symbol is unpatriotic. Why, the flippant remarks CmdrTaco made about our flag border on terrorism! I urge you to join the protest in each 'United States' story. Sacrifice your karma for your country by pointing out this injustice. Let's all work together to get our flag back. Can you give your country any less?

Wait a second... (1)

dnaumov (453672) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501929)

"This all came from the Codeweavers-dominated recent licence change (to the LGPL) which was done in an attempt to steal TransGaming's Direct3D code and force them to open up all their work (thus have no means to make money)."

Wait a second...so if you open up your entire source, you can no longer make money ?

exactly... (4, Funny)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501939)

i'm going to send the folks at codeweavers a letter requesting my money back for the crossover plugin.

Codeweavers makes me sick (2, Troll)

HanzoSan (251665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502373)



Lets look at what they were doing. Ill show you examples!

Codeweavers is not a team player. They were the ones who pulled out of their partnership with Lindows.

When Transgaming started making WineX, CodeWeavers got on them to release the code, they also got on Lindows to release the code. However both of these commpanies do not have a business plan where the code can be released immediately, during this time Wine was under a license which allowed this.

CodeWeavers got mad that they couldnt use the WineX and Lindows code to sell their products, but WineX and Lindows could use theirs.

Their solution, was to get the license changed. Instead of working WITH transgaming and lindows, from the start codeweavers has seen these two companies as enemies.

If Wine is what you care about, why does it matter if other companies use your wine code? its better for Wine, its just not good for your business.

So you see, this was a strategic business attack from code weavers, forking Wine allows them to now get all the code produced by Transgaming and Lindows to add to their products.

BUT YOU DONT see Transgaming or Lindows whining and complaining about this because these companies unless CodeWeavers have an actual business plan!

Look, if we are to be successful as open source, our businesses should work together. Lindows and Transgaming are doing this, try both TRIED to work with Codeweavers who refused and caused both companies to have to spend more on development attacking both of their businesses.

I predict code weavers will be the first to go out of business because they dont work with the team.

Update: CodeWeavers has posted a Reply! (-1, Troll)

dbretton (242493) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501943)

CodeWeavers CEO Jeff Gribdule has posted a reply to CEO Gavriel State's email.

Though brief, Gribdule has stated that his reply manages to address all of the issues Gavriel has introduced, and reaffirms Codeweaver's stance on loosening their licensing scheme.

Codeweavers' reply may be found here [goatse.cx]

WINE == DEAD END? (4, Insightful)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501946)

It seems to me that all we'll ever be able to run on Wine is old Windows applications. Any cutting edge applications will not run unless the said app. maintains strict adherence to a old proprietary standard. This means that Wine will always be one step back.

Virtual Machines such as Bochs and VM-Ware will eventually be the only choice for running x86 applications.

Incedently VMWare and Bochs are not new concepts. SCO have had something called Merge [caldera.com] for ages, which has allowed people to run Windows on Openserver for years now and more recently allowed Unixware users to do the same.

Wine's forking is a desperately sad attempt to remain as near to the cutting edge in legally grey DMCA infested waters. Virtual Machines and emulators are the way to go, DMCA be dammned.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (2, Informative)

morningdave (259151) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501996)

I don't know that it's necessarily a dead end, just because the cutting edge apps aren't running from Day 1. I have been very interested (and impressed) by the efforts of companies like both CodeWeavers and Transgaming to use this codebase to produce products that allow people to run common Windows apps under Linux. In particular (sorry if this sounds like an ad), CrossOver office is very impressive.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of office documents out there, and if we're going to see more linux desktops (the need for which is a separate argument, not taken up here), people will need to be able to read and save documents in those formats. CrossOver Office allows you to do that very well for Office 97 and 2000. The fact that it doesn't support Office XP isn't too big a deal in my book, at elast from a business perspective. Office compatibility issues exist even at companies that are primarily Windows shops. I work for a major cable shopping channel (yes, that one), and we're still running NT4 and using Office 97. Our case is a bit extreme, but the fact remains that large companies simply aren't able to deploy the latest versions of Microsoft's office tools as soon as they come out. In fact, it's downright bad practice to deploy any Microsoft software in a business environment until a Service Pack or two is released (and many -myself included- would say I should have stopped that sentence after the word 'environment'). If WINE and projects based on it are even able to stay consistently one generation behind in their support for Office and such apps (and I think they'll do much better than that), they will have successfully addressed a major issue with getting companies to migrate from Windows to Linux. Of course, this doesn't help the home user who wants to be able to get at Office XP documents or play the latest games today, but we linux folks are a bunch of do-it-yourselfers anyway. That's why the source is available :)

I just hope that folks at both companies (and any that should follow suit later) can keep sight of the bigger picture and not kill the project with petty licensing squabbles. There must be some way to remain commercially viable *and* return code to the WINE project. It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502057)

The only advantage of WINE that I can see is the performance. Most virtual machines have a performance hit. A virtual machine emulating say a PC or Amiga will be machine code compatible with the underlying OS of the program you want to run.

Another point is that with you example for instance you could run your existing setup, Windows NT4 as well in a Window on a Linux desktop. No retraining, just click your box and your old desktop is available.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (1)

morningdave (259151) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502130)

Fair enough. I'd be lying if I said I could give you anything resembling an intelligent discussion on the pros and cons of virtual machines (actually, if you could point me to some good reading material on virtual machines, I'd appreciate it). From what you say, it definitely sounds like a robust virtual machine would be a superior approach to a bunch of different applications emulating different parts of the Win32 API to do what they need to do. I just think that WINE currently allows a fair amount of people to get most of what they really need to do done on a day-to-day basis.

I like your idea of popping up a window with NT4 on a linux desktop, though I can just see the scenario that would lead to it.

IT dept: Hey, we're upgrading to Linux. Here's a machine with KDE, it's a desktop environment that is similar to the Windows environment you've been using.

Users: But, it looks all different and stuff. Where's the "Start" button? What's that stuff in the taskbar? Where's Internet Explorer.

IT Dept: Oh, that's no big deal, just click the "K". You can use Konqueror inst...

Users (interrupting): This is too hard. It's too different. I don't have time for this.

IT Dept: Well, if you'd like, we've given you the option of opening a window to run NT4 while we make the transition. Here, click this.

Users: Ah, that's better.

IT Dept: So, you can use this to do things that cause you trouble, while you're learning the new applications that we have on Linux. See, Linux offers us a number of advantages, such as...

Users (interrupting again): Can you make the NT4 window come up in fullscreen mode?

IT Dept:

Of course, maybe the fact that I'm at work right now enhancing pefrectly good software for these same users has colored my opinion of them a bit :)

"Start" vs. "K" (5, Interesting)

autechre (121980) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502285)

I work for a university newspaper , and we had some old machines (P-90, 16M RAM) that just wouldn't run Win98 usably. So I decided to make them into X-terminals, since the fileserver (running Samba and netatalk) wasn't really being pushed.

Everything was set up, worked fine. But I only got a few people to use it. I made a big poster with a screenshot of the desktop and hung it right above the machines, but still, little use compared to the Windows machines next to them. People would actually _wait_ to use the Windows machines.

That's when I switched from KDE to icewm. I made icewm have the most Windows-like look possible, giving it a "Start" menu instead of "K." I also put 4 shortcuts on the taskbar next to the Start menu (like Win98) for StarOffice, Netscape, GAIM, and a script that connects them to their PINE email. Then I created a _background_ with arrows pointing to things and descriptions (before, people would just not look up and see the poster). Now I see them being used all the time.

Another thing about a place like this is that the (student) staff changes fairly regularly, and so the new people are more likely to use the Linux machines (though still only if the Windows ones are all taken).

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502411)

Heh. Well, sometimes the users should get knotted. Cat'o'nine tails made from Cat-9 should do the trick. Y-O-U--W-I-L-L--U-S-E--L-I-N-U-X and if you dare to call me again I shall beat you some more.

But seriously, you can make NT4 run full screen mode in Bochs and VMWare, kind of defeats the object though. If only end-users knew their ass from their elbow ;-) and CAT-9 'o' nine tails were legally acceptable in offices.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (2)

Ozan (176854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502007)

You are not supposed to keep on cutting edge while running your apps on wine. It is meant to be a possibility to keep your existing software when migrating to a *nix OS.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502043)

Understood, but what if your existing software is cutting edge?

I would argue that a Virtual Machine solves any problems because it emulates hardware as opposed to software. Therefore if the said software (say XP or even Plan 9) is compatible with the hardware, there shouldn't be any problems.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (3, Insightful)

Ozan (176854) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502090)

Understood, but what if your existing software is cutting edge?
Easy thing: stay on windows. Don't force yourself on a certain system because it is hip. Be professional. If you need linux software, use them on a VM.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502359)

Does a Windows system forceyou to upgrade to the latest Windows system by only making critical fixes in the next version? Besides I would argue a totally neutral OS policy is best.

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502008)

I can't help but think that the Wine project is a FUCK waste of time. Don't get me wrong - I don't really begrudge the developers spending time on it, and I'm very impressed at the amount of work that has gone into it - it's one of Open Source's most outstanding projects.



My point is that depsite the fact that many people find it useful, in the long-term, it is unlikely to advance the various open source platforms on ARSE BLOOD KILL which it runs (primarily Linux, as this seems to have the most commercial support at the FISTING CUNTS moment, although I have had success running it on various flavours of FreeBSD).



If Wine can run Windows programs, and people are purchasing/warezing Windows programs to run on it - that DIE CUNT FUCKER just gives extra strength to the philosophy of only releasing products for Windows. What we really need is native implementations of software - not some half-breed like Office under WineX. It's confusing enough having all these different widget sets under X - throwing in Windows-look alikes just creates further difficulties.



Add to that the SHIT fact that Windows compatibility is a moving target, and despite the teams best efforts - by definition, they will always be playing a game of catch up with Microsoft. I'm not complaining as such - I believe people should be free to spend their time how they RAPE ARSE FUCK please (and it's also bad form to complain about something that's free:) - but I just have to question the long-term effects of Wine.



Sincerely,
-The Tourettes Troll

Re:WINE == DEAD END? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502150)

Merge=win4lin http://www.win4lin.com

Agree. Also: Merge for Linux. (3, Interesting)

aussersterne (212916) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502325)

It seems to me that all we'll ever be able to run on Wine is old Windows applications. Any cutting edge applications will not run unless the said app. maintains strict adherence to a old proprietary standard. This means that Wine will always be one step back.

And don't forget that so far, we can't even run old Windows applications using Wine. We're how many years on and I still can't run MS Office 95 or 97 with the latest Wine release, much less Internet Explorer or Photoshop. The recent popularity of the "screw native Linux software, all we need is Wine" mentality is very troubling.

Incedently VMWare and Bochs are not new concepts. SCO have had something called Merge [caldera.com] for ages, which has allowed people to run Windows on Openserver for years now and more recently allowed Unixware users to do the same.

By the way, you can also get Merge for Linux. It's used as the guts of the very popular (and cheaper and faster than VMWare) Win4Lin [netraverse.com] .

Re:Agree. Also: Merge for Linux. (1)

JohnBE (411964) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502370)

I didn't know that Win4Lin used Merge as its base. Interesting, I had a discussion with one of the top SCO persons about four years ago and they didn't want to port it to Linux and considered Linux a poorly engineered system. Never mind, looks as though they came round eventually.

Incedently I have run Office successfully under Wine. The setup documentation is a bit of a bitch though. Whilst I realise that there is more than one way to do things I only want to do one. Get the bloody thing working with Baldurs Gate! So far unsuccessfully.

Be proud of your code (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501949)

Dont let the @#$%wits in washington dictate if your code is Free.

There are lots of countries in the world that dont have DMCA type laws.

Your a pussy for pulling your code, you may as well go and work for microsoft.

Of Course Your Dick Is Too Small (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3501951)

Get A Longer Schlong For Just $60!

Its not very often that a piece of mail arrives in my snail mail box that I actually read, but when this envelope arrived, I had to open it. It was labeled with enticing comments like "What do women want" in a font that spanned almost the entire height of the envelope on both sides. And since Dragonball Z [planetnamek.com] wasn't on for another 5 minutes, I opened it. If only I had known.

Now I'm not sure what I bought where that allowed my name to fall into the clutches of the warped corporation that sent this letter to me. I suspect that it was that copy of 'Girls Gone Wild' purchased one evening after 6 shots of whiskey [bushmills.com] , while watching Howard Stern on E! with Kurt The Pope [thepope.org] and Sarcasta [sarcasta.net] (Don't get it. Its horrible. After 60 seconds, it becomes remarkably similiar to pulling teeth as a "Real Girl" after "Real Girl" takes it off for a crowd of learing men. "Real" is code for "won't ever be in a magazine accused of exploiting women". The only really attractive women are the ones you've already seen in the ads. And when you add this soundtrack, it just makes it all seem evil).

So at this point, I've made the fatal mistake: I've opened the letter. never do that! They start fast and hard by attacking my belief system and forcing me to question my own manhood. Now I've never been particularly concerned in this dept. But here's the thing: even John Holmes would've been curious about this. He would open this package and think "Hrm, 2 extra inches! Why, that'd be nifty" and immediately order a case of LONGitude. And odds are it'd work and he'd end up gaining another foot and killing some poor chick on the set. Thank god LONGitude didn't exist in the 70s or there would have been a lot less porno, and lot more "John Holmes Kills Again" headlines.

So being good marketroids, they take things that I considered conventional wisdom, and they attack them in a carefully planned campaign designed to destroy any chance of ever having any sort of pride in my own sexuality again. In fact, if these statistics are true, I'm embarassed for our whole gender:

  • 85% of women say they NEVER achieve an orgasm during sex...
  • 72% of women said they FAKED orgasms they never had..
  • 67% of women say they're UNHAPPY with their lover's penis size...
Now these statistics shatter my belief system. I mean, while she's down there moaning, I'm usually wishing I could just finish up and watch The Daily Show 'cuz Jewel is gonna be on, and boy I bet her comments on the GWB/Gore Debate will be insightful (to her). But according to these statistics, 72 of the last 100 women I've had sex with were faking orgasms! And since 85 of the last 100 women I've slipped my salami into never even achieve orgasms in the first place, I guess I really don't have much of a chance of pleasing her at all. But the real heart breaker is that 67 of the last 100 women I've humped think my dick is to small, (a very special personal note to the 67 of the last 100 women I've had sex with who think my dick is to small: Yeah?! You think so? Well, maybe you just a really stretched out vagina! Didja think of that? Maybe you should stop doing that trick where you stick the can of soda up there and open the flip top with your uterus muscles.

Sorry. Got a little out of hand there. I'm back now.

Now I am a college graduate. This doesn't make me smart: frankly, I'm not exactly sure how I managed to graduate in the first place. I just skipped 1 class less then allowed, and managed to squeeze by, setting records in "Collegiate Minimilaism" (this works really well in art. Less well in history). But during my academic sentence, I managed to take a whole biology class and its required lab. I learned much in these classes about biology, but even more important, they taught us all about "The Scientific Method (lather, rinse, repeat.)". This means that I can't just make stuff up and have it be true (as evidenced by the large number of "C's" I got in my labs). I mean, at first glance, this looks good: Its from a "Former Viagra Pharmacist". I mean, they don't say which viagra pharmacist, but if he's anything like my old pharmacist, he's like 50, and he hates it when you spend to much time playing tag in his store and reading his baseball card price lists without paying for them. This man is most definitely qualified to invent a Scientific Breakthrough like LONGitude.

Obviously he doesn't get much: the sad little white jacket is proof enough that he ain't a big hit with the ladies. So he's got incentive. Plus he works at a pharmacy. LONGitude's marketing materials explain that their product is 100% safe and natural, and contains Zinc, 300 Yohimbe, Maca, Catuaba, Muira Pauma, Oyster Meat, I-Arginee, Oat Stra, Nettle Leaf, Cayenne, Pumpkin Seed, Sarsaparilla, Orchic Substance, Licorice Root, Astragalus, Tribulus, Boron, and Ginseng. I bet this bored pharmacist has access to many of these chemicals, and since its not like it takes all day to give dirty looks to the teenagers that buy birth control and condoms. He would still have plenty of time to try every conceivably combination of these substances until he discovers the one that makes his dick bigger. I mean, with that many chemicals, one combination practically has to do it, so at least he had a goal.

So I'm sure you're thinking to yourself, 'So all this does is make my dick bigger?'. But NO thats not ALL. It has OTHER features that are just as important... the following features are quoted directly from the marketing materials, as I am not creative enough to actually concoct this stuff myself:

Strengthen and harden your erections like a length of STEEL PIPE! what exactly does this mean? My grammar resolution engine is confused by this sentance. And my grammar resolution engine is really generous all things considered, as evidenced by the fact that I ran this column through babelfish it came out in german for gods sake! What a shitty grammar checker!
Develop your PC Muscle to form a truly "muscular" looking penis that will impress and arouse your lover. I guarantee they'll brag to their friends. First off, I'm kind of opposed to developing a muscular looking anything. Second, I didn't know that there was an aesthetic for a muscular looking penis, and finally, I don't want my "lover" talking about my manhood to anyone (except girls who refused to date me in high school. She may brag to them all she wants). But now that I know there is an aesthetic that my penis should strive for, I have another part of my body to be embarassed about. And I thought it was just my bad haircut, beer gut, and teeth.

Enlarge your penis 1-4" or more AT HOME, without vacuum pumps, weights, or surgery. OR MORE! ADDING MORE THEN 4 INCHES?! WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! OH MY GOD! FOUR FUCKING INCHES?! WHAT SORT OF CRAZY FOOL WOULD WOULD ATTEMPT TO ADD MORE THEN FOUR INCHES ONTO THEIR DICK! WHAT THE FUCK! ARE LOOKING FOR FUCKING RETARDS HERE?! ISN'T ENOUGH ENOUGH!? STOP THIS CRAZINESS!

Intensify your orgasms So you're telling me that this miracle herbal breakthrough will not only give me a wang that would make porn stars envious, but it will make orgasms better? Lets be honest here: there isn't much on this planet better then an orgasm in the first place. Telling me you can make them better is like like saying you figured out how to make heroin more pure, or removed the annoying sportscaster commentary from battlebots [battlebots.com] leaving only robots doing battle for the full 30 minutes, without commercials or annoying banter from lame broadcasters who weren't cool enough to compete with Dennis Miller.

And much, much more! Like what? Global peace and harmony? A recording contract with Sony for 3 albums with a multi-million dollar signing bonus? Sex with Jennifer Aniston (note: not year 2000 Jennifer Aniston as fucked by Brad Pitt, I'm talking about 1995 Jennifer Aniston, as nipples scene each week on "Friends"). But really, haven't you offered me enough? Length, Girth, Intensification, A bragging Girlfriend, and a more aesthetically pleasing muscular dick? What more could you provide? Could my semen taste like chocolate, or maybe be 100% pure liquid gold that I could sell on the market for a grand a jizz? I have to say that I suspect that I speak for all recipients of this random mass mailing when I say "No LONGitude, you've done enough. Thanks. But there's just no need for you to give me 'Much Much More' for this 'Low Price'".

With great power also comes greater responsibilities. 'CP Direct- Creators of LONGitutude' warn you that if you continue to take this miracle breakthrough in herbal medicine, you will continue to grow. They warn you not to grow beyond 9 inches because you will start damaging your dates! This is a fair warning: you just know some dude who burned his dick [seanbaby.com] with scalding lethal McDonalds Coffee will overgrow his penis and impale some girl on his 17 inch piece, and he'll sue. And win. This is America, land of the free, where we should all be entitled to 17" cocks without fear of lawsuits.

8===========D

8===D

This diagram shows to scale just how much bigger LONGitude claims it can make you.

Now they guarantee that this is a risk free endeavour. If LONGitude doesn't work after 30 days, you can return it for a refund. Of course, this does mean that you have to explain to 'Candi', the helpful and perky girl who will answer the phone when you call to tell her that
  1. Your penis is small.
  2. You thought LONGitude was a worthy investment towards solving #1
  3. Your penis is still small.
  4. You are fucking cheap and willing to swallow the embarassment of admitting all of the above just to reclaim your sixty bucks, even tho any male with one drop of self respect would simply forget the 60 bucks to save himself the embarassment of admitting that he is stupid, cheap and has a small dick.
But to be quite frank, I don't think that the real fear is that this stuff doesn't work. No, for me the real fear is that I will take it, and my dick will explode. Josh Bowens goes into great details (well, 2 paragraphs at least) in his pamphlet to explain to me the science behind what LONGitude sets out to do to your fireman.

He explains us that his drug will make the chambers of erectile tissue larger. Now I don't know about you, but I'm thinking of a balloon here, and what happens when you plug it into the helium machine and hold the lever down a little to long: yup, thats right. The balloon explodes and coats the room with a fine layer of human blood. I can't think of anything less sexy then having your dick explode, and coating you, your lover, and most importantly of all: your bedsheets with a mixture of seman, erectile tissue, and dozens of natural chemicals mixed together by former viagra pharmacists.

I hate doing laundry, and if your dick blows up on your "Lover", I'm willing to bet that not only will she never ever have sexual relations with you, but she will not speak a single word to you ever again. And believe you me, you will most definitely not scrub the erectile tissue out of your sheets... and that stuff just isn't gonna come out either.

Now I don't think that LONGitude would work any more then a penis pump [cmmweb.com] . But I also have never tried a penis pump. And I know that there is a market for these things since I've seen them regularly at novelty shops next to the 14 inch double ended jet black vibrating dildo. However the fact that things like this exist proves that there is a market of people who would be willing to send their $59.95 to these guys. I considered it. Not for me of course. Purely in the name of science, I wanted to administer it to Kurt The Pope [thepope.org] and Ryan the Felon before I risking my own genitals. After no deliberation, they both said no. Fuckers. This is science we're talking about. Maybe I should explain the scientific method to them again. I doubt it would matter... Dragonball Z is on. Its pretty tough to talk them into anything while Dragonball Z is on.

I don't even know the situ. and I see the bias! (5, Insightful)

rknop (240417) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501952)

This all came from the Codeweavers-dominated recent licence change (to the LGPL) which was done in an attempt to steal TransGaming's Direct3D code and force them to open up all their work (thus have no means to make money).

<Dripping Sarcasm>
Oh, very well put.
</Dripping Sarcasm>

I don't even know what's going on and I can tell that this is absolutely nothing but a ham-handed attempt to push forward a view of the GPL and LGPL (and/or of Codeweavers) and blame it for things for which it no more responsibility than it does for the crisis in the Middle Eeast.

Licence changes of open code only affect future versions. If an earlier version was out under a different licence you liked better-- fork from there! That's what gave us OpenSSH. It was forked from the last "open enough" version of ssh. Similarly with TuxRacer; it's gone commercial, but the earlier GPLed versions are still GPLed, and nothings to stop anybody from further development of them.

What's more, even if you change your future versions of code, you can't "steal" somebody else's code which uses an older version. The current ssh is under a more restrictive licence... but OpenSSH doesn't have anything to worry about using the older ssh code. Similarly for TuxRacer; if somebody else writes a GPLed extention to it, the proprietary version can't "steal" it simply because it's connected to an earlier version of code that the proprietary version grew out of. (And vice versa. Developers of the GPLed version aren't "stealing" the proprietary code, or preventing it from being sold, by building on the earlier version.)

This statement is little better than Microsoft FUD, and comes across as far less slick than it. If there really is some beef or ethical problem with what Codeweavers has done, I don't know. If there is, it needs to be stated much better than this. This statement here only makes me believe that the poster is a whiner with strong opinions about the GPL that aren't actually based in fact.

-Rob

This story is completely bogus! (3, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502265)

The LGPL does not prevent proprietary software. It doesn't even prevent it from being static-linked! It doesn't prevent anyone from making their money. It doesn't prevent them from implementing closed DRM schemes. The whole premise of the story is invalid. here!

Bruce

I hate to be the skeptic (2)

rosewood (99925) | more than 12 years ago | (#3501973)

It seems strange that someone would just pull something out of fear of the DMCA. Worse case scenario is they say remove it after its realease, and you do. Luckily for US the geenie is out of the bottle by that time, but they conform so its all okay, right?

I mean - I hate the DMCA as much as the next guy (cause Jack Valenti isnt a guy so it cant be as much as him) but I have to be the skeptic and think maybe there was a different reason he pulled his code.

Ive been wrong before...

Territoriality (2)

Beautyon (214567) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502000)

The fear of the DCMA is more powerful than the law itself and the people who enforce it.

If this Hidenori Takeshima is resident in Japan (I dont know where he lives) then the DCMA has no effect on him. Period.

The DCMA is relevant to and has force only for United States Persons. If someone in the USA downloads your source from outside of the USA, and that source violates the DCMA, the downloader is liable, not the author if the source in question is subsequently implimented in a project.

Everyone really should understand this by now. The same principle applied to the export of the printed source code of PGP. Once code leaves US borders, it is no longer the business of US courts. Thats why PGPi exists.

If the DCMA continues to break software like this, the only alternative people will have is to move software development into the free world.

Yes, the Free world.

Is there another law besides American law? (1)

INAN (99094) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502055)

Yes, but as seen in the case of a certain DeCSS author, the USA seems to think that American law does apply to the entire world.

The fear is unfortunate, but understandable in my mind.

Re:Territoriality (4, Insightful)

sqlrob (173498) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502171)

The DCMA is relevant to and has force only for United States Persons. If someone in the USA downloads your source from outside of the USA, and that source violates the DCMA, the downloader is liable, not the author if the source in question is subsequently implimented in a project.

So why was Johansesn (DeCSS) arrested (or at the very least, taken by authorities) and questioned in Sweden?

Re:Territoriality (2)

BrookHarty (9119) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502257)

If I remember correct, didnt the US federal government arrest a russian for his company breaking the DMCA?

The US federal government can arrest foreign citizens, they do it all the time. Politics is a nasty game, and it extends to the whole world. M$, Cisco, IBM and every other global company company has offices in most countries. Corporations with the backing of the US federal goverment can put pressure on smaller countries to pass dmca laws, or arrest you.

-
cd /mnt/games/jediknight2; winex JEDIOUTCAST.EXE

windows (1)

dTd (134414) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502017)

Whenever windows code is the subject, the conversation revolves around whining about money and who stole what code for what reason. Use only quality GNU software to avoid these issues. I say, let's quit talking about windows and get back to coding and using linux. That way we can be assured of healthy happy minds.

Re:windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502138)

You wish you but you cannot :) A lot of people have custom apps that were developed in that bastard on a langauage Visual Bullshit and a component of Visual Shit. You cannot tell these people to throw their code down the bit toliet. A way must be made so that they can run the crap until they can recode it and for some the cost of such a project will not allow it. In a perfect world Linus would rule but in this one we still have Bill Skates to contend with. You cannot just ignore the son of a bitch because he is a pain in the ass just ask your local schools who are now being made to pay more to Billy because he wants to count Unix and Linux boxes as WinBSOD boxes. Good coders know how to develope solutions on how to make all the broken bits come together and work. It this world a network is made up of a lot of shit good shit and really bad shit. You cannot control it but you can manage it. There are going to be times when you are going to have to make do with that crap windoze app but you can tweak it or your system to make the best of it.

no such thing as free wine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502022)

Codeweavers seems unlikely to oppose people making money from WINE development.

god forbid someone makes some money.

On the front page (1)

gurensan (259321) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502045)

... it looks like the developers of all the Wine and Wine copies are duking it out with licenses rather than M$ style:

'I'll take your invention, E&E it, then I'll beat you over the head with it'

'You do that and I'll sue!'

'Then I'll settle, but I'll keep beating you over the head with it.'

It's really not like this in the Wine world, but that's how /.'s front page makes it sound.

Transgaming (1, Interesting)

pajor (310214) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502047)

This really shows Transgaming's position in the free software / open source worlds. I am a subscriber to Transgaming and have since because of their attitude canceled my subscription. I subscribed because they had an interesting business model and I supported it. When the subscriber base of transgaming reached a certain point (apparently non declared [it used to be on their site some where but I bet they renigged]) then they will release it under a less restrictive license "such as the wine license." I finally read that part over again and noticed that it doesn't actually say anything about what license it will be under, and exactly how less restrictive it will be. The fact that they are negotiating to allow simple trivial things back in to the code base that they have been leeching from for years (such as middle mouse support in DirectX) shows they had no intention of remerging the codebase under the wine license. I can almost guarantee that they will never release their modifications under the wine license now, but rather under some non GPL compatible license.

This is what you get when you trust and give your money to a company founded by ex employees of Corel.

Gnuyen [gnuyen.org]

Re:Transgaming (1)

justsomebody (525308) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502278)

Not only trivial hacks, DIBs are hard core. Even Alexandre stated that. Then again, your whining about license. Complete GPL is impossible, as defined with legal reasons defined by some patents.

Secondary I'm a subscriber too. Let's say they have really bad support, but work is great. I actually haven't got any answer on my questions on forums. They answered on my E-Mails, in about week or two.

Look from the other side. Codeweavers plugin and Office plugin? Can you run any of those (QT, Schockwave, Office, WMP) by using CVS wine tree. NO? They aren't selling plugins, they sell solutions that work for them only. Closed source and not pubiished.

Re:Transgaming (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502297)

I don't think you're right regarding the patent issue. The patented code can be contained in an MIT-licensed code fragment and the MIT license can be converted to GPL by anyone.

Bruce

Re:Transgaming (1)

justsomebody (525308) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502360)

You really should read Wine magazine before posting same answer twice to same person ;-)

I know it is possible, Wine tree doesn't allow it.

Dual licensing? (2)

jensend (71114) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502050)

It seems to me that several of the most successful open source projects have used multiple licensing. Why not use a dual license? The non-LGPL license would need to be somewhat more restrictive than the X11 license (since there were specific reasons why they wanted to have some copylefting), and I don't know what would fit the bill, but it seems that such a combination would fit the Wine project's needs quite well.

License fights (2, Insightful)

dmiller (581) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502062)

This adolescent squabbling over licenses is pathetic. It is really sad to see people trying to use the [L]GPL as a weapon. I think I'll just use Rewind

Re:License fights (0)

pajor (310214) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502075)

They aren't trying to use it as a weapon, they are sick over the massive forking that happens with BSD style licenses.

Re:License fights (0)

pajor (310214) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502093)

I'd like to note, notice that when GPL/LGPL projects fork, it's because of technical/legal issues, as opposed to people trying to fork it for their own best interest, rather than the project's.

Timothy == asshole (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502125)

Talk about a troll article. Bastard.

WineX source code (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502135)

And while we're at it, maybe some could request that Transgaming publish their source under a licence like X11, rather then using the restrictive Aladdin licence [transgaming.com]

LGPL does not prevent proprietary additions (5, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502208)

This is a most mixed-up story! The use of the LGPL does not prevent anyone from making a proprietary addition! It would not "steal" the Direct3D work. Proprietary code may be linked to LGPL code. It may be static-linked, dynamic liked, anything. Libraries may include mixed proprietary and LGPL work as long as the two can be separated for re-linking (which means the .o files have to be available, big deal). The decision to go to the LGPL does not retroactively change the license on old-code, either, only new additions.

Bruce

Who is the guilty one? (4, Interesting)

justsomebody (525308) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502217)

Transgaming, Codeweavers, Wine or ReWind?

Reading their comments in Wine Magazine 122 or was it 121, I felt like the guilty one is Transgaming. But if you'd examine carefully work Transgaming is dealing with, license forces them to work that way. Some parts they made for WineX like Copy Protection just can't work under base Wine license (same reason as CSS for DVD, which is stupid if you ask me), so all they are asking is making patches available in secondary license which would allow them to push them out closed as demanded by patent.

On the other hand Codeweavers is selling Crossover plugin for a long time and look Quicktime under official Wine license still doesn't work??? I understand they'd sell plugins for browsers, but selling parts of Wine that allow QT to work? That's what exactly what Transgaming was acussed for, just some other parts of system (which are legally closed by patent).

So who is the guilty one?
1. Transgaming for not risking their bussines as demanded from Wine side?
2. Codeweavers for not publishing code for Quicktime to work? Even though Quicktime is not closed by any patent?
3. Wine for being so obviously on Codeweavers side?
4. ReWind for making compromise between all of them but obviously left on the side as a side player nobody really cares about.

I vote for Codeweavers.

Re:Who is the guilty one? (5, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502245)

Slashdot for getting the story wrong. Anyone else who got the story wrong - which might mean Wine Magazine, but I haven't read it. The LGPL's effect is essentially the same as the BSD license. You can link any proprietary code to it.

In other words, this is much ado about nothing.

Bruce

Re:Who is the guilty one? (1)

justsomebody (525308) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502349)

You can read Wine magazine to get second side opinion. All they do is bitchin' how wrong is to link some closed proprietary part of InstallShield (you pointed out it is possible), how transgaming is not playing fair for not publishing Copy Protection (this is legally impossible), etc.

It ends with a stupid comment Alexandre made comparing party with software development. Accused Transgaming for not posting their patches, how he's doing it for fun not for bussines etc. Infact stupid comment that opens up wrong opinion as soon as you finish reading.

But still, I can't run Quicktime, which I could with Codeweavers patch. That wasn't mentioned not even a bit. To finish, ReWind is nothing but trading and free place between Codeweavers, Transgaming and free developers. Isn't that tragic?

Where the hell has Wine development gone? To make second hand plugins each of them separately (just wait a month or two and Codeweavers will make Adobe Photoshop pacth selling it for 50$) enabling you to run some peace of software? That would make proprietary software even more expensive, harder to install and most of all, it takes off credibility of Linux.

I'm not saying it's bad selling something. Hell, I freely support 7 projects, develop one and I buy every piece of software I use, even though I could download it for free or pirate some.

All I'm saying, projects as Wine are developing more FUD and bad reputation than Wine development.

the importance of the trade (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502247)

i think the dll separation code is really important: after the completion of it, rewind, wine and the proprietary forks can be sort of binary compatible, meaning that crucial development in a gpl'd dll is not lethal anymore for a proprietary fork, and only work to gpl'd dlls has to be opensourced.

MEEPT(almost) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3502276)

whenever I see a wine post, I can't help but remember meept's post:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=16448&cid=19 90 061

AC because i don't want to whore on meept's work

sreb

Another license thread... (1)

Kindaian (577374) | more than 12 years ago | (#3502408)

arg...

Why can't people just code and stop arguing at what license should the developers release their code?

It is the developers right to license the code as they see fit. If they like each sub-version can be a completly diferent license!

If you don't like the license... stick with the previous version code and fork it from there... (in other words... eat the bullet...).

Cheers...

P.S.- And please take more atention to the next version of OpenGL! It is better then direct x stuff... (it is a standard after all)...
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