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Interview With Cosmoe's Bill Hayden

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the smooshing-things-together dept.

Programming 130

Eugenia writes: "Over a month ago it was reported that a developer had forked the Athe(na) operating system and ported its GUI on top of Linux, without the use of XFree86. This combined OS, called Cosmoe, would support Linux, AtheOS, BeOS and even Macintosh's Carbon APIs (without the use of GNUStep - his port of Carbon is wrapped around the Be API). OSNews today features an interview with the architect of the combined OS, Bill Hayden, where a lot of things are explained about his plans for Cosmoe."

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GnuSTEP and Carbon (5, Informative)

Eugenia Loli (250395) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514905)

Duh! I made a mistake when I submitted the story. GNUSTEP wraps around the Cocoa API, not the Carbon one. Sorry for the confusion.

I was deep into porting a game to MacOSX at the time of the submission and everything was like a big knot in my head... :P

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2)

doooras (543177) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514922)

amazing. a first post by submitter. anyway, i know it's off topic, but i was just curious what books you might recommend to learn cocoa and carbon. i'm getting tired of windows programming.

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2)

Eugenia Loli (250395) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514944)

Hello Dooras. :)

> amazing. a first post by submitter

Yes, weird, isn't it? I mean, I loaded Slashdot just before I go to bed tonight, and the story had just come up.. :o

At OSNews I have already written 2-3 book reviews about MacOSX programming. I am new into MacOSX myself, I only got this G4 450 Mhz Cube some weeks ago, but I started reading about Carbon and Cocoa since January, because I was seriously thinking of getting a Mac anyway.

So, here is a review [] , a second [] one, and I also recommend this book [] as well. Please come back soon on OSNews, because I will be reviewing another Carbon book soon, which (so far) seems to be the best of the lot.

(I have the whole OSX book series here, all the latest MacOSX programming books can be found in the shelf behind me. :D )

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2)

doooras (543177) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515010)

thanks, both to you and the subsequent replies.

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2)

Eugenia Loli (250395) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515056)

> Yes, weird, isn't it? I mean, I loaded Slashdot just before I go to bed tonight...

Well, it seems I won't be going to bed soon. A pretty intensive earthquake happened just 75 Khm away from our place, 5 minutes after the story went live. Preliminary reports say that it was 5.2 Richter...

earthquake map (1)

cpeterso (19082) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515062)

Here's a cool map of California earthquakes, updated every few minutes.

earthquake map link (1)

cpeterso (19082) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515077)

oops, here's the map link: Recent Earthquakes in California and Nevada []

Re: earthquake map link (2)

Eugenia Loli (250395) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515094)

Yes, thanks. This is the web site my husband loaded after I woke him up, when I felt the strong earthquake... :o
This is where we got the preliminary report for the 5.2 magnitude as well. :) has gathered more info about the earthquake.

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515259)

I suffered through the Loma Prieta (7.1 in '89). This was nothing...

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2)

ZigMonty (524212) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514948)

I don't do Carbon so I'm not much help there but for Cocoa get Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X by Aaron Hillegass. Stay away from Learning Cocoa, it sucks.

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (0, Flamebait)

Daleks (226923) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514970)

Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X by Aaron Hillegass is a great introduction to Cocoa. You'll be writing applications in no time. It also provides an as-you-go tutorial on Objective-C, which is easy to learn if you already know Java or C++. As for Carbon, checkout Carbon should really be left behind though...

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2, Interesting)

duffbeer (114852) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515038)

I wouldn't waste my money on books. The developer tools you can download for free from apple are fantastic, and come with ample tutorials, examples, and documentation to get going. I got ahold of a mac to get back into client-side coding after a few years in web apps and was up and running in only a couple of weeks.

Have fun, you'll love it. =) Also, you don't have to bother with objc if you don't like. I've been cranking along using the java bindings just fine. I love the java option, as it lets me utilize lots of java code of my own and some harvested from the net.

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (1)

Art Tatum (6890) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516460)

Bah! Java when you could use Objective C? It is an abomination!

Re:GnuSTEP and Carbon (2)

donglekey (124433) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515150)

As another said, stay away from the Orielly book Learning Cocoa, it is an abomination and practically useless.

Doesn't matter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514946)

Put yourself in the skin of Joe Sixpack and reread your submission. You'll see that your mistake doesn't matter, Joe Sixpack will simply go get another beer.

Katz (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514955)

Jane was sitting on a beach in Florida, attempting to strike up a conversation with the stunningly attractive gentleman who was reading on the sunbed beside hers.
"Hello, sir," she said, "Do you like movies?"
"Yes, I do," he responded, and then returned to his book.
Jane persisted. "Do you like gardening?"
The man again looked up from his book. "Yes, I do," he said politely before returning to his reading.
Undaunted, Jane asked. "Do you like pussycats?" With that, the man dropped his book and pounced on Jane, pumping her as she'd never been pumped before.
As the cloud of sand began to settle, Jane dragged herself back to a sitting position and panted, "How did you know that was what I wanted?!!"
The man thought for a moment and replied, "How did you know my name was Katz?"

Wide page (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514913)

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Email me and tell me what you think of widening! [mailto]

Interview (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514920)

Does anybody know if NetBSD has been ported to this yet?

That's an unfortunate URL (2, Funny)

ObviousGuy (578567) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514931)

.cx is perhaps the most unfortunate 3 characters to have at the end of a URL.

Re:That's an unfortunate URL (1)

drinkeycrow (556431) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514962)

no man, that URL rules,, I wish I had cx, I got stuck with com. My friend had cx once,, so he says.

Re:That's an unfortunate URL (1)

mlk (18543) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514989) use to be free, alas people abused 'em (wonder why:) so it was scrapped :(

Re:That's an unfortunate URL (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515384)


now it ends with "lah"!!

geekiness of story (4, Funny)

56ker (566853) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514947)

Words/phrases in story -

operating system - 1 point

Linux - 10 points

Linux (again) - extra 5 points

AtheOS - 5 points

BeOS - 15 points

APIs - 2 points

Be - 5 points

Total : 43 points!

40-45 points: This story is so geeky it's bound to be accepted on slashdot!

Re:geekiness of story (2)

Jeremi (14640) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514972)

5 points for AtheOS, and 15 for BeOS? Shouldn't that be the other way around?

Re:geekiness of story (1)

iserlohn (49556) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514994)

Nope. BeOS is dead, AtheOS not yet.

Re:geekiness of story (-1, Flamebait)

quinto2000 (211211) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515420)

Try getting 56ker to make sense. He's an imbecile.

Re:geekiness of story (1)

quinto2000 (211211) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515431)

Well, that was absolutely pointless. BeOS doesn't even have the same geekiness factor. More geeky than MacOS, I think not as geeky as MacOS X. It isn't GPL'ed, so not geeky enough for the Slashdot crew. Try "I wanted an early post, but didn't bother to read the article." Karma slut.


RecipeTroll (572375) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514960)


2 cups all-purpose flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon baking powder
2 sticks (1 cup) unsalted butter, softened
1 cup sugar
1 large egg
1 teaspoon vanilla

Into a bowl sift together flour, salt, and baking powder. In a large bowl with an electric mixer beat butter until creamy. Gradually add sugar, beating until mixture is light and fluffy. Add egg and vanilla and beat until combined well. Gradually add flour mixture, beating until mixture just forms a dough.

Divide dough between 2 large sheets of wax paper and form each half into a 10- x 1 1/2-inch log, wrapping it in wax paper. Chill logs until firm, at least 4 hours, and up to 5 days. Dough may be frozen, wrapped in foil, 2 months. Let dough soften slightly before cutting. Preheat oven to 375F. and lightly butter a baking sheet.

Cut dough into 1/8-inch-thick slices and arrange slices about 1/2 inch apart on baking sheet. Bake cookies in batches in middle of oven until golden around edges, 10 to 12 minutes, and transfer with a metal spatula to a rack to cool. Cookies may be kept in an airtight container at room temperature 5 days.

Makes about 100 cookies


Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514986)

I don't particularly like butter cookies. Any interesting pancake recipes?


RecipeTroll (572375) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515007)

Can be prepared in 45 minutes or less.

1 1/4 cups buttermilk
2/3 cup quick-cooking rolled oats (not instant)
1 large egg, beaten lightly
2 tablespoons firmly packed light brown sugar
2/3 cup firmly packed grated peeled Granny Smith apple, excess juice squeezed out
6 tablespoons all-purpose flour
6 tablespoons whole-wheat flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon cinnamon
2 tablespoons vegetable oil plus additional for brushing the griddle
maple syrup as an accompaniment

In a bowl whisk together 1 cup of the buttermilk and the oats and let the mixture stand for 15 minutes. In a large bowl whisk together the egg, the brown sugar, and the apple. Stir in the flours, the baking soda, the salt, the cinnamon, 2 tablespoons of the oil, the oats mixture, and the remaining 1/4 cup buttermilk and combine the batter well. Heat a griddle over moderate heat until it is hot enough to make drops of water scatter over its surface, brush it with the additional oil, and drop the batter by half-filled 1/4-cup measures onto it. Cook the pancakes for 1 to 2 minutes on each side, or until they are golden and cooked through. Serve the pancakes with syrup.

Makes twelve-4-inch pancakes, serving 2


Anonymous Cowrad (571322) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515006)

What do you think of Alton Brown [] ?


RecipeTroll (572375) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515023)

I do not know him. Is he a recipe troll?


Anonymous Cowrad (571322) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515045)

No, but he's a source of fantastic recipes.

The fact that he's a cutie doesn't hurt, either.


RecipeTroll (572375) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515060)

I'm into Iron Chef type cooking programs myself.


Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515249)

So, who's your favorite Iron Chef?

For me, it's a toss-up between Chen and Michiba. I think that Michiba is probably a better chef, but I dig some of the szechuan dishes that Chen makes and he also cracks me up.

Morimoto is cool too because he's so pro-American. That's a big fuck you to you Eurotrash, socialist wankers!


RecipeTroll (572375) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515305)

Favorite Iron Chef? Morimoto definitely. I also like Kandagawa.

My lady reads Cosmoe (-1)

Anonymous Cowrad (571322) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514961)

I'll have to check this out.

Just kidding, I don't have a lady.

But you knew that.

Cosmoe Developer (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514973)

Can it run my favorite Linus game, DOOM? I will not use this product if it is not supporting my Linus beowulf clusters.

Hey you fellows did you know that I cleaned out my keyboard today and in it I found:
1 45 calibre automatic
2 boxes of ammunition
2 lipstick
2 pair of nylon stockings
1 issue of prophylactic
9 packs of chewing gum
100 dollars in gold
100 dollars in rubles
vitamin pills
pep pills
sleeping pills
morphine pills
1 combination miniature russian phrase book and bible

All of these hilarious items popped out and I said to myself: "Shoot, a fellah could have a pretty good weekend in DALLAS with all that stuff." But then, you know, the censors thought that my funny comment about DALLAS would have a negative impact, having been said in such close proximity to the assassination of President JFK. So the censors changed it from DALLAS, to VEGAS. However if you had been there to see me say this funny phrase, you would have seen my lips say DALLAS, but my voice said VEGAS!

Re:Cosmoe Developer (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515629)

I'm the most foppish perverted Klansman ever!

Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damage! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514984)

We had a *major* earthquake in San Francisco a few minutes ago. Reports are just trickling in, but there are several fires burning in my neighborhood.

Mod Up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515001)

I'm on fire right now! Aaarrrggghhh!

Re:Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515004)

felt alittle bit of shaking way down in morgan hill, ca 10 minutes ago. I guess its my first quake, boy what fun, dog hated it though.

Re:Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damag (1)

loddington (263358) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515047)

Still no report at quake.usgs.gav []

Re:Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515087)

I wouldn't say massive.

5.2 sw of gilroy...

Re:Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damag (-1)

Bitter Old Man (572131) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515070)

Your neighborhood? With my constipation, there are several fires burning on my sphincter. And you want sympathy?

Not in San Fran - in Gilroy. NOT major damage (2)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515076)

The USGS has a map [] with info.

My San Jose home rolled slightly, and BART has stopped for a bit, but life goes on.

Re:Not in San Fran - in Gilroy. NOT major damage (0)

Permission Denied (551645) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515362)

Dude - wrong article.

Re:Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515096)

Listed as a 5.2, epicenter in Gilroy. Here's a link to the USGS site... surprised that there are fires. I'm in Palo Alto area and there was just some shaking. It did interrupt the hockey game in San Jose (the announcers thought the fans were shaking their press box!)

USGS site []

Re:Big Earthquake: San Francisco has massive damag (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515097) [] magnitude 5.2 - not catastrophic, but not insignificant either. It is the largest magnitude quake this year in CA.

Why AtheOS was impressive (5, Interesting)

tswinzig (210999) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514990)

When AtheOS was "outed," it was really far along. Especially when you consider it was all written by one person.

Similarly, OpenBeOS was impressive because it garnered a big crowd working on it rather quickly, and working code soon followed, to the chagrin of many. (There's already much work done on the kernel, via NewOS, BFS, the network stack, the GUI implementation, various preference and utility apps, and much more.)

AtheOS was a new OS built for fun (seemingly) by a guy that was impressed (but maybe not directly influenced) by BeOS. More power to him.

OpenBeOS is being built by fans of BeOS who want to see an open source version that can live on in binary compatability (for the first releases), and eventually progress beyond what Be, Inc. did (RIP).

Where does Cosmoes fit in to things? This guy forked AtheOS against the original author's wishes (welcome to the world of Open Source, Kurt), in order to ... what? Run BeOS apps on Linux? Run AtheOS apps on Linux? Run BeOS apps on AtheOS? Run MacOS X apps on Linux?

Honestly I'm trying to figure out what the goals are; I don't mean to be negative. If the guy is just doing this like Kurt, to have fun, then great... Otherwise, why promote this thing so much when virtually nothing is done? He admits the most of the hard stuff is waiting to be done. Instead of doing an interview, announcing the code fork, etc, why not start coding and announce it when you've got something to show for it?

Re:Why AtheOS was impressive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515012)

Honestly I'm trying to figure out what the goals are;

From the article: "Cosmoe is nearing the stage where I would feel comfortable doing a preliminary release aimed at developers. "

This is just going out on a limb here-- and it's unlikely, since usually the people who do these kinds of projects are maverick lone gunmen who don't really know how to delegate authority or impose design on others, and thus pretty much have to write the entire project themselves-- but maybe, just maybe, this guy is trying to drum up support?

Like, maybe, once he's got stuff a bit more fleshed out, he's going to, like, you know, go ask for help in writing his OS. In which case having some publicity, and some people lined up and saying "hi, i'm willing to help" would be a huge boon.

Re:Why AtheOS was impressive (1)

bojan (103490) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515013)

Because maybe people will see the benefit of an OS that can run all the apps, wheter they are Linux, BeOS, MacOS, or similar and maybe these same people will know a bit about code, and will have time to spare to help out, thus giving this project a leapfrog start!

In that case, we'll all have...

one OS to rule us all and leave this proprietary code behind in the darkness.

Why do MOST OSes run only code written for them? Sure technically it makes sense, but as a user - I want to run an app, I don't care what OS it's written for.

That's the real benefit if a trulley OPEN system, IMHO...

Re:Why AtheOS was impressive (4, Insightful)

tftp (111690) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515026)

I tend to agree. The Cosmoe web site is devoid of any content whatsoever. Not even a screenshot - despite of author's claim of having a graphic artist's soul.

Experience of developing BSD and Linux already tells us that a good OS is most definitely not a one-man job. Goals of Cosmoe are highly undefined. Even if the author produces something working, it is likely to be very simple and not up to standard that BSD and Linux set every day.

IMO, the mistake #1 is to start the project without setting a reachable goal, and establishing means to reach that goal. So many projects fail (in open- and closed-source worlds) because of that. Unrealistic expectations, deadlines that are years off mark, lack of understanding of now complicated some things are (just look at QoS for example!) drive projects into the ground.

Of course, everyone is free to do whatever he likes with his own free time, but setting up a Web site to sell the OS seems to be a little bit premature.

Re:Why AtheOS was impressive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515693)

Here are some screenshots of Cosmoe [] No, really. He uses the AtheOS appserver & decorator plugins. It looks like AtheOS....On Linux!

Re:Why AtheOS was impressive (2)

karmawarrior (311177) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516358)

Out of interest, when did Kurt express opposition to a fork?

My limited understanding, and perhaps things have moved on since then, is that Kurt wants control over his own project, but he must have GPLd it for a reason, and I always assumed that would have been so that others who wanted to try other things with his code can do that without needing him to change the direction of his work.

Is there a mailing list posting from Kurt clarifying his position?

Re:Why AtheOS was impressive (2)

imr (106517) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516394)

Honestly I'm trying to figure out what the goals are
Then go and read the posts in the atheos list where he announce his thing. There's quite interresting stuff in those exchanges. After some flame about forking from many persons, he fists acknowledge that he wasnt clear enough about his project then he states that this is not a fork of atheos
what he plans is: he takes the atheos api which he likes, add the beos api which he likes, put this on top of linux kernel which he likes, in order to replace someday X which he dislikes and which is the real target of his project.
he is in no way forking atheos as this is a linux (kernel) project, using code from atheos project found valuable. open source at his best in my books. It's too often that valuable projects just can't reuse existing code to cry a river when some valuable code is found usable.
on the coding side, he claims having 6 months of work into the projects already. But just yesterday, I was talking about this project and said:"there isnt even a site!". So i guess this project entered the "there isnt even screenshots yet" phase, but for me, i'm going to be a little more humble and wait and see.
by the way, you should be able to have this thing run alongside X....

Desktop developers - get yer stuff together. (2)

Hard_Code (49548) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516424)

Ok, here is my ungrateful whiney rant. Feel free to skip it and move along.

We have tons of half-baked, alpha, spin-off, desktop operating system/UI projects that never get anywhere, and which invoke laughter when anybody claims Linux/<some free unix> is ready for the desktop. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I realize that these guys are doing this "for themselves" as a hobby, but unless desktop developers get together, think over the hard questions, and come to solutions which all can agree on ("standards"? Gasp!), all we will have is a sea of hobby projects. Work that has already been done needs to be leveraged.

It seems to me that AtheOS, OpenBeOS, BlueOS, and NewOS (which I just discovered today), all have the same goal in common - to create a new, all-encompassing, semantics-enforcing, object oriented UI (basing it of the BeOS APIs simply because this is one of the areas BeOS did really well) fundamentally integrated with the rest of the OS. Surely these projects can work together? What about Berlin - is *none* of the work they've done relevant?

In the end, it may simply be that more work will get done *without* cooperating because each hobby developer is incentivized to work on his own thang (working in parallel, through the magic of open source), but it just really screams of inefficiency to me - the work that is done on any of these projects is probably reusable in the others (and I think bootstrapping by using the X drivers is a great idea). Is there really any fundamental philosophical difference between any of these projects? We'll never get anywhere if everybody is reinventing their own unicycle - let's combine them into a useful vehicle. I'm also more than partly motivated because I, myself, as a user, am pretty sick of X (no matter what is thrown on it) and am ready for a free desktop OS designed from the ground up *as* a desktop OS.

Who cares? (1)

carbon13 (464993) | more than 12 years ago | (#3514996)

Why not support the XFree developer team instead of creating another GUI? The chances are higher that it will be integrated into a bigger user base. It is very unlikely that it will happen in the Cosmoe case.

Anyone remember Berlin?

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515021)

repeat after me:
Linux is failing on the desktop, as its desktop is pants.

X sucks as a desktop, something new, legecy free and with standards is needed.

Re:Who cares? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515856)

You're an idiot.
Please, wise one, tell us, why does X suck on a desktop?

Can you imagine? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3514999)

A case mod made of a Beowolf Cluster of these babys!

I just don't get it (2, Insightful)

g4dget (579145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515020)

please understand that the previous sentence does NOT mean that I will be using XFree86 as the engine (shudder), just that Cosmoe will leverage XFree86's existing drivers to drive Cosmoe's graphics engine.

What is supposed to be wrong with the X11 graphics engine? Why do people keep complaining about it?

X11 does hardware-accelerated 2D and 3D graphics with transparency, anti-aliased fonts and graphics, ClearType-like rendering, and server-side geometric transforms.

You can get a good X11 server into less than 1Mbyte with almost no off-screen memory, or you can give it hundreds of megabytes for caching, buffering, fonts, and textures.

X11 provides a uniform and powerful API for all sorts of input devices.

It can't be the client/server architecture that people complain about because neither Windows nor OSX do direct graphics I/O for their UI either. Neither can it be the footprint, because if you look at Windows or OSX GUI apps and system resources, they are as big as X11 on similar hardware, or bigger.

Graphic design can't be the problem either: X11 imposes no constraints on the toolkits, GUIs, or desktops you build on top of it, and X11 toolkits have emulated Windows, OS/2, and MacOS/OSX so closely that it is really hard to tell the difference.

So, what concretely is supposed to be wrong with X11? Why this visceral dislike? Why do people keep starting projects to replace X11 with unaccelerated display servers?

Re:I just don't get it (2)

mlk (18543) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515028)

X11 imposes no constraints on the toolkits

Thats why, it's not X, but the lack of standard toolkits.
In joe-user mode, I want a standard look&feel across all my apps, if all the developers started using either KDE or GNOME, or if KDE & GNOME joined forces to create a standard toolkit for X, which everyone used then it would be fine. But instead every soddy app works complete differntly.

Re:I just don't get it (1)

g4dget (579145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515320)

In joe-user mode, I want a standard look&feel across all my apps

X11 is the equivalent of GDI, Quartz, or DisplayPostscript. If you want to try to enforce a consistent user environment on top of it for your new OS, you can do that as much as you can do it on any other platform.

Conversely, Quartz and GDI fail to enforce a consistent UI either. Toolkits like Borland, FLTK, wxWindows/Universal, Qt, Swing, and OpenStep run on top of both of them and they give you applications that look and behave differently from native apps.

In different words, I think this is a red herring. If you build a new windowing system, for a while, things will be consistent because your own applications will be the only ones. Once it becomes popular, the consistency vanishes.

Standard look and feel (1)

spnbs (264432) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515350)

I want a standard look&feel across all my apps

My response seems so obvious, but no one ever seems to suggest it. If you want all your apps to look and feel the same, then I suggest you run KDE or GNOME (or any other toolkit/appkit). Just pick one. There are enough apps for each that you never should have to leave your chosen "standard" look and feel. And for the rest of us who don't care, let us run what we want.

Re:I just don't get it (1)

mmj2ca (579331) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515412)

The MacOS and Windows UIs have plenty of inconsistencies, even in those applications that come from the OS vendor itself. The Interface Hall of Shame [] picks some of them apart. Have a look [] at some of the applications that supposed HCI experts at IBM and Microsoft are producing. And that isn't even counting all the Windows and MacOS apps written using cross-platform toolkits that differ substantially from native apps (often, they are actually better than native apps).

X11-based UIs aren't perfect, but on the whole, they are no worse than the commercial stuff. And whatever problems GUIs like Gnome and KDE have aren't the responsibility of X11, which is merely a windowing and graphics library (roughly like Quartz).

Re:I just don't get it (1)

jchristopher (198929) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515036)

Graphic design can't be the problem either: X11 imposes no constraints on the toolkits, GUIs, or desktops you build on top of it, and X11 toolkits have emulated Windows, OS/2, and MacOS/OSX so closely that it is really hard to tell the difference.

LOL. If no one could tell the difference between X11 and MacOS, do you think people would still be buying Macs at double the price? Hint: there's a reason folks still buy Macs.

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515039)

It's likely due to the hugely disappointing array of windowing toolkits out there that simply pale in comparison to truly polished environments like Windows and Mac.

It's a case of blaming the messenger instead of the message.

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515882)

Polished? MFC? OpenStep? You must be kidding. Gtk+ and Qt are better beyond comparison.

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515086)

Try and use it on a p100 w/32mb ram, Then ask what the problem is, Win95 beats X11 of looks & speed.

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515285)

I was using X11 with no problems on a 40MHz SPARC with 16M of RAM for several years. Before that, on a 20MHz 386 with 4M of RAM. If anything, it ran a lot better than Windows 3.1 or Windows 95.

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3516757)

Back on my olde P-133/Matrox system, the Solaris X server ran significantly less shitty than XFree86 3.3. Or maybe that was Solaris being less shitty than Linux.

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515288)

I'll second everything you said. I've got this p-166 laptop with 80 megs of ram. It's dual boot with debian-sid and win98. I usually don't use the win98 partition for anything except maintaining this stupid little dos configuration program that we use at work.

The other night I was deleting some of the stuff on the windows partition and for whatever reason opened up IE. Jesus Christ! IE is SO much faster than any browser that linux has.

I guess X11 is the problem because both galeon and konq are about the same in regards to speed, but both are just pale in comparison to IE.

My .02

Re:I just don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515879)

I guess X11 is the problem because both galeon and konq are about the same in regards to speed, but both are just pale in comparison to IE.

It's a mystery to me why Galeon and Konqueror are so slow and big, but the problem isn't X11. Give the Dillo browser a try. Its HTML parsing and processing are much inferior, but for any given web page, it renders the same amount of graphics and text as the others, yet it is much, much faster. That shows that it isn't X11.

Note that the Gtk+ and Qt toolkits themselves aren't all that efficient--they really are kind of grafted on top X11 and fail to take advantage of a lot of X11 graphics and server side capabilities.

Unfortunately, a lot of people reason like you do and seem to misattribute the performance of inefficiently written applications and toolkits to X11.

What's wrong with XFree86? Re:I just don't get it (5, Interesting)

po8 (187055) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515293)

As many of the responses to your post illustrate, folks just don't get the idea that XFree86 is a highly modular system. They don't get the idea that the fastest path to a high-quality GUI desktop for their favorite OS is to start with the existing XFree86 server, extend it as necessary, and layer atop it with a decent client side. Yes, Xlib's time has come and gone, and Xt has always been pretty hopeless. So use something like XCB [] as a base, and design the GUI API of your dreams atop it.

Also note that many of the XFree86 features you mention are either brand-new or not-quite-there-yet. For example, decent font support has only been solid for about a year now, and is still evolving a bit. Server-side affine transformations have been specified but not yet implemented. The spec for proper anti-aliasing of polygons was just finalized last week: it was implemented this week. (That's how fast XFree86 is moving these days with Keith Packard [] working on it full time. Keith has repeatedly demonstrated that it's pretty easy to add the "missing" functionality you want as an X extension.) As folks get used to the Render and FontConfig APIs, I expect to see correspondingly less interest in building window systems from scratch.

IMHO, the "visceral dislike" comes from several factors, including outdated ideas about what X is and how well it works (the performance claims I see around here sometimes crack me up), insufficient appreciation of the difficulty of what X does, and NIH syndrome.

The good news is that all the carping isn't slowing down the clueful folks any. KDE 3 is nice enough that for the first time since the mid-80s I'm not running twm as my window manager any more. I expect things to only get better from here.

Re:What's wrong with XFree86? Re:I just don't get (4, Insightful)

Permission Denied (551645) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515569)

IMHO, the "visceral dislike" comes from several factors, including outdated ideas about what X is and how well it works (the performance claims I see around here sometimes crack me up), insufficient appreciation of the difficulty of what X does, and NIH syndrome.

Disclaimer: I'm an X11 programmer. I love X. Allows me to install matlab on only one machine but use it from anywhere (instead of buying 30 licenses for the 30 people that would occasionally use it), wrote my own window manager since everyone else's window manager got at least something wrong, and the X11 APIs are extremely clean and elegant - especially if you compare it to say, win32 SDK.

Here's why I think the kids don't like X nowadays:

  1. Athena toolkit. Occasionally they'll find a scrollbar that they can't figure out how to use (pre-version 21 emacs) or buttons used for popping up menus (like xfontsel or gv), and it's pretty damned ugly.

    I don't know how to solve this problem: XFree86 programs like xfontsel, bitmap or xvidtune shouldn't depend on GTK or QT, but at the same time, we should limit exposure to Athena. At least use Xaw3d instead.

  2. Fonts still suck. XFree86 4.2 doesn't come with any truetype fonts, you have to recompile QT and set an environment variable to even get konqueror to look decent, old apps like netscape won't ever use truetype fonts and even getting netscape to display legible text involves venturing through Dante's ninth level.

    This problem can probably be solved by the Linux distributers - include decent truetype fonts, set up QT correctly, etc. I imagine they're probably doing this at this point, but I don't keep up with them.

  3. Configuration still sucks. Only once - once - did I find that XF86Setup correctly set up a graphics card, and I've worked with a lot of machines. Same deal with "X -configure" on XF86 4.x. I have to fix XF86Config on every machine, and a number of times, I rewrote the thing from scratch as the default template is extremely long and verbose (eg, it has commented-out examples of how to set up multi-monitor systems, something I've never seen in all my years of computing). In addition, the little XF86Config generators still won't set up vital options such as ZAxisMapping, so you end up editing it by hand anyway. They still expect you to know your monitor's sync frequencies, which is absolutely unreasonable.

    Solution to this problem? The config generators must be fixed. This is really a very, very big problem. I shoudn't ever have to choose my graphics card from a drop-down list - the config generator program should figure out what graphics card I have by snarfing its PCI id. "X -configure" does this, but it's none too friendly and still doesn't make for a usable XF86Config - it should be integrated with something like XF86Setup from the 3.x days, which allowed you to also set the various other options. No keyword should be added to XF86Config until the config generators are updated to set up the new option.

    I've never managed to watch a DVD using Linux/XFree86. I'm a unix systems programmer, so I'm not some noob who's afraid to read docs - however, the last time I checked, oms still doesn't do sound sync, so it's completely useless. In XFree86 4.1, the ATI drivers were completely broken and wouldn't correctly do DGA, etc on every ATI card I've seen. It's much better now with XFree86 4.2, but it's extremely dangerous to say that watching DVDs in Linux is feasible at this point. This will only encourage the neophyte to actually try it - they'll have to upgrade and recompile their kernel, upgrade their XFree86, mess with some crap in /proc to enable DMA on their DVD drive, get a CVS checkout of oms as the published tarballs are outdated, search for the correct css plugin, as there are at least three different ones, and then, maybe, perhaps, they can try to see if it will even work. I didn't write down the crap I went through while trying this, so I'm missing a whole bunch of steps here - suffice it to say, this will take a few days. If you try to run quake3 or any other 3D game under Linux, you'll run into the same things.

    Solution to this problem? Cut back on the advocacy. Let's be honest and admit that very few people will be able to watch DVDs or play newer games in Linux at this point.

Re:What's wrong with XFree86? Re:I just don't get (1)

Verloc (119412) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515660)

If you try to run quake3 or any other 3D game under Linux, you'll run into the same things.

Never had ANY trouble setting up quake3 in linux. Not a GeForce either, a G400 Max. Couple of kernel options and a few tweaks to XF86Config and it was the first "application" I had working on my new Gentoo Linux install besides X

And since I'm already WAY offtopic, I'll mention that the Gentoo Linux [] install is long but worth it and not difficult at all. The instructions on the website are FANTASTIC. I have never seen better installation instructions in my entire life. I was a hardcore slack user for a while, and this came to be as a bit of a shock. System is nice too :P

Anyway, play q3! and to a lesser extent rtcw! Support your local Cache [] ! Cause computer games are damn fun

DVD Playing on Linux (4, Informative)

benjj (302095) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515668)

Woh woh woh woh!

I think it must have been a while since you tried dvd playing on linux. AFAIK oms isn't even developed anymore. I use xine with the dvdnav plugin. It installed easily on debian, and the only sound sync problems I had were when I tried it using esd.

I also run 3d games under linux. Both the Wolfenstein and Quake III work, as does max payne running under WineX. All with no trouble after I installed the NVidia drivers.

I do agree with you about the X configuration issues, this seems to be something that each commercial distro is trying to solve in their installers (somewhat unsuccessfully in my experience).

Re:What's wrong with XFree86? Re:I just don't get (4, Interesting)

po8 (187055) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515705)

Your points are mostly well-taken.

  1. There is a serious effort underway to remove all Athena dependencies from the sample X apps, and not to replace those dependencies with Gnome or KDE dependencies. But it'll be a while before this happens: the replacement has to be designed and built first.
  2. Font support is being improved as we speak. Distro vendors can certainly help. The KDE and Gnome groups are helping. I'm using anti-aliasing on most every font on my screen now, and although it was decidedly non-trivial I didn't actually have to stand on my head to do it.
  3. IMHO the configuration situation, while bad, is not as bad as you describe. Certainly the only viable way to configure X is to run "XFree86 -configure" on a 4.2 server and edit the output. But the edits aren't that hard any more. As you note, card detection is automatic, and usually works. The VESA bits make modern monitor detection also automatic, eliminating that source of confusion. Mostly it's input devices that are a continuing source of grief. Keith Packard finally rewrote the mouse protocol autodetect fairly recently: XFree86 now successfully autodetects your mouse type the first time you move the mouse around. (This, BTW, was surprisingly hard.)

    The default XF86Config file format may be moving to XML. This would help a lot with newbies being able to use sensible tools to edit their configuration. In particular, XML editors are pretty good at not messing with parts of the file they don't understand...

The DVD player thing is a special case, since there are folks in the world actively trying to make it hard :-). But if you run Debian, you can very easily install usable XFree86 bits, a usable kernel, and the current Xine bits. It's then just a question of finding a .deb for the Xine CSS plugin, and you should be able to watch movies---I can.

The DRM/DRI support for 3D has stabilized to the point that it mostly just works. As you suggest, if it doesn't, you are probably out of luck unless you have direct access to a guru. This is true in Windows-land as well. The traditional solution there is to buy new hardware to make your software work. Buying a modern Nvidia card means you automatically get usable Linux drivers and some tech support, so this is always an option.

I agree that there are some things that still require some expert help, and that this is too bad. But all of this has gotten pretty off topic. If you check out the 3D and video HW support of the competition to XFree86 (e.g. Cosmoe [which is apparently going to call its initial distribution potatoe :-)]) you'll find it to be far inferior, to say the least. X may not be perfect, but it's tremendously good. Help out or just be patient, and it will get even better.

Re:What's wrong with XFree86? Re:I just don't get (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515987)

Ah.. That explains why my mouse stopped working in XFree 4.2 - both the mouse (a logitech trackman marble+), and XFree must be trying to autodetect which protocol to use, and deadlocking..

x configuration (-1, Flamebait)

koekepeer (197127) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515751)

we know there are caveats in the xfree86 distribution. you're an experienced unix systems programmer, so why don't you devote some time to write a good X-configurator (since according to you it is as easy as getting the pci ID of the card, etc :-\). help the world configure x, you're obviously someone who can do it.

furthermore, given the fact that you are a unix system programmer, i find it very strange that it takes you 3 days to set up dvd playback on your linux box, whereas it took me 2hours max. using google i found & compiled mplayer. libdvdcss, libdvdread (or something), compiled, and ran it. the only thing is that sound & image are slightly out of sync, which can be annoying sometimes. so indeed, it's not perfect.

q3a took me even less time to setup, it's an installer for christs' sake. all i needed to do is set the right permissions to the /dev/dri/card0 (or whatever), and it ran perfectly fine.

with regard to multi-head configurations: some people do use that, the fact that you don't doesn't mean it's not useful to others. the same applies to the huge amount of comments in the generated configfile, it allowed me to learn howto set up a decent config file without ever having to consult a howto. you might not like extensive comments, but others do.

in summary: i find solutions much faster than you (a unix systems programmer) do, and i can't even code beyond simple javascript... from this i thing we can conclude that you need to reconsider the effectivity of your troubleshooting methodology ;-)

(no that's not flamebait) and, if you're trolling, this is a good one since it invoked such a elaborate response from me. in that case: cheers!

it's gotten much better, really (1)

g4dget (579145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515952)

I don't really understand those issues. If a Linux user does the same thing that a Windows user does, install a ready-made distribution, they don't ever have to deal with any of this. Modern Linux distributions configure the server and OpenGL, figure out the monitor, install a desktop, and install TrueType fonts. Even the DVD players work out of the box (you have to get a third party CSS decoder plug-in yourself for encrypted DVDs--thank the MPAA).

If you choose to compile and install things by hand, of course, you have to edit XF86Config files. But even there things have gotten much easier (e.g., in XF86v4, you don't need to worry about modelines anymore).

Re:What's wrong with XFree86? Re:I just don't get (2)

Hard_Code (49548) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516798)

The biggest problem with X, no matter how wonderful it is, technically speaking, is that it does not enforce GUI semantics. This can be considered either a good or bad thing. From the perspective of a desktop OS, I think this is a bad thing. I don't know the guts of X well, but isn't the fact that video drivers are implemented in userland an architectural problem to begin with? Plus, the resources mechanism is absolutely byzantine and needs to be be razed, and salted, as well the complex distinctions between server and client (wait, who's the server, who's the client, who has the toolkit?, who's running the window manager? what the fsck is going on?). X simple suffers from being everything to everyone. I mean, it does an OK job being everything to everyone, but sometimes, as in when designing a *cohesive* desktop operating system, you *purposefully* don't want to have every option, and you *purposefully* want to force/standardize some things. Currently to get a GUI you have to choose a permutation of Toolkit/Window Manager/Desktop each of which might have its own subtle semantic differences, and due to the "flexibility" of X, may or may not work with each other with varying degrees of success. Just because a toothpick is "modular" doesn't mean you should build a house out of them.

Now maybe X is as modular as you say, and can be used as the building blocks for a more narrowly-defined GUI. But I think X has engendered as much bile against it as there is inertia behind it. (and a lot of the problems of X are the same old unsolved problems of Unix in general - no standardized method of configuration or collation of preferences for one)

Who cares? (-1)

Bitter Old Man (572131) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515032)

Children are dying, my hemmorhoids are bleeding, and you zit-heads are making a big stink over hot cocoa. Penises.

He wants it to be pretty... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515059)

but look at his web site! May I humbly suggest that you name your new os HideOuS? Also, are we talking about a fork from Athena or Atheos here? Maybe they are the same, who knows, who cares.

A question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515136)

I was wondering...

If this one guy can somehow bridge Beos's API to cocoa, couldn't someone (easily?) wrap cocoa around GTK?

What would be the issues involved? I mean, isn't GNUstep an entire open source implementation of much of cocoa?

It sure would be neat to have cocoa versions of GNUCash, Abiword, GNUmeric, etc...

feasible? or a pipe dream?

Re:A question... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515811)

Why not throw away GTK? It sucks so horribly.

Hmm.. (3, Insightful)

josh crawley (537561) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515218)

Is anybody thinking that this might be on the "Top Ten Vapourware of the year"?

In other news, did I mention that I'm building a program for Linux that can eliminate ALL of those nasty unresolved dependancies!! It works for DEB, Slackware TAR, and RPM's. It automagically scans and can determine what the developer really means when he puts the program names and versions in the RPM's. REALLY! IM SERIOUS!(cough)

Once someone ports it to use X (2)

sanermind (512885) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515245)

we'll have BeOS and Carbon API support under normal real world linux use [with X11]. After all, if he's using the linux kernel, he's just writing another user mode GUI layer, like X. It should be relatively trivial to modify the code so that instead of directly talking to the framebuffer, it opens up in a managed window under X, [like with wine].

Why do I care? Because I like X, and I'm certainly not about to want to give that up that to run other neat apps that have been targeted to BeOS and carbon API. But if it's already on linux, well, nifty! [Once it's out of pre-alpha, of course]...

Re:Once someone ports it to use X (2)

ceswiedler (165311) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516417)

Well, you're not going to be able to run Mac binaries, just because of Carbon support--if that's what you think. If nothing else, Macs are big endian while PCs are little (or is it the other way around?).

Even source compatibility will be tough, given the huge differences between the design of MacOS and Linux.

Re:Once someone ports it to use X (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3516465)

Your right its they are different indians (don't get to say that very often).

but you should be able to build some stuff written for the mac for linux. just depends on how they write it. if they stick to common posix stuff and make the gui modular (where the real port comes in).

just a thought.

calling it in the air... (1)

Patrick_Starfish (558000) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515267)

and it will be: a) pointless b) vaporware

Toy Operating System -- Not For Professionals (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515342)

Another reason why Linux will never advance beyond hobbiest/research project stage.

Total anarchy. Few applications look the same, even fewer work the same, and none of the configuration files are the same format. And if this isn't enough fun for you we have someone creating a "revolutionary new desktop environment" every other week.

Here we have this guy making some kind of operating system on top of Linux which is supposed to emulate another OS (AtheisOS) which emulates the extinct BeOS and oh yeah it is supposed to run a few macintosh programs too, but you have to decompile, recompile, debug, quicksort, shake, then stir, simmer for 15 minutes... and just maybe you will get a simple program like xeyes to run. But, dude, you forgot Amiga support!! Also you will need to somehow use X video drivers, which I don't know about you, but every time I hear anything which sounds like I'm going to have to be configuring X Windows I get these awful tremors and my face turns blue.

Just in case that wasn't enough for you -- since he is probably using code from 30 or 40 other projects, there are going to be so many licenses to sort through you would need to hire 1000 lawyers for 1000 years to figure out whether or not you could sell it without violating some hacker's copyright somewhere.

Yes, Linux is the never-ending hobbiest project. Doomed forever to some back room where a longhaired smelly geek lives.

Re:Toy Operating System -- Not For Professi.. (OT) (0)

fredrik70 (161208) | more than 12 years ago | (#3516601)

well, according to the rest of the world you're fairly wrong about Linux being a toy OS, hasn't been that for many years now...

eah, know this is a bad troll, but what was the development of linux to do about some geezer using said kernel for his own project??

Re:Toy Operating System -- Not For Professionals (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3516756)

Your a moran who is full of shit. Bill Gates must of paid you off to come troll and plant your bullshit. Go back to blowing Bill Gates as thats the only thing that you are able to do and remember to bendover and smile for your man Bill. While Bill Gates is fucking you up the ass just remember that others are getting rid of his shit and installing Linux and GNU software. Schools are getting rid of Microsoft Moran Crapware and are installing Linux and GNU Software. Moran why do you not show us some code since you feel like your an authority on Operating Systems lets see some of your code weasel. Seems like the only thing you are good at weasel is bending over and blowing Bill Gates. Weasel Moran what are afraid of that some real coders will be able to get applications from other Operating System to run under Linux. Quake has a new meaning for your idol Billy Boy Gates as he sees his lock on the applications go out the window. I have one thing to say to fuckers like you who bend over and blow Bill Gates and the boys at Microsoft HAHAHAHHAHA........................sic!

Not to be pedantic... (1)

Fredflintston47 (255214) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515519)

...but of course I'm going to be:

Doesn't this sound a bit like Windows 3.1 being called an 'Operating System'?

This is a GUI that supposedly will support the API's of multiple platforms. Methinks it won't be all that easy in the end. (think ardi with their executor trying to copy *just* the Mac API...yes, I *did* buy a copy).

I don't see how this could be even remotely possible, unless linux-like numbers of developers jumped in.

At last - for all those people that bitch about X (2)

Mandelbrute (308591) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515577)

At least now all of those people that bitch about X have something better to play with now than SVGAlib. Personally I like X, but I'm probably biased since I like to run stuff across networks. something like this may actually work on a large scale if qt and gtk support is added. How many apps actually talk to X directly?

Does it run on FreeBSD? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515646)


Any commercial ideas? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3515796)

Any ideas of making this financial viable in some way so that it actually can be a finished product in the end instead of just another un-usable Linux?

Carbon != Cocoa != GNUStep (2, Informative)

tbien (28401) | more than 12 years ago | (#3515998)

First of all Carbon is the C++ based MacOSX API
based on the old toolbox functions from MacOS 9 backwards. It has nothing to do with Cocoa which
is a Objective C API based on OpenStep.

GNUStep is the free (as in GPL) Implementation of
the OpenStep specification.
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