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Which IT Certifications for Specific IT Jobs?

Cliff posted more than 12 years ago | from the certified-programmers-sysadmins-and-webmonkeys dept.

Education 380

outlander78 asks: "There have been several questions posted recently (Landing a job, College or Career? to list a few) discussing education and job searching. I have just completed a BSc Computer Science, and have 2 years of co-op experience. This is apparently not enough, as I have yet to get a single interview, despite many carefully written letters and resume submissions to job postings. I read here that a degree with certifications was a good combination, so now I need to know - which certifications are best for job seekers? Whether I work as programmer, sys admin or something else isn't an issue, since I need any job at this point, and enjoy most computer-related jobs - please, suggest whatever certifications you are hiring for or were hired because of."

cancel ×

380 comments

CLIT IN THE HOUSE (-1)

L0rdkariya (562469) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553088)

Yeah, That's right.

Re:CLIT IN THE HOUSE (-1)

Sexual Asspussy (453406) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553115)

888888888888888888888888888888888
888....888.8888 888888.88888.....8
88.8888.88.8888888888.8888888. 888
88.8888888.8888888888.8888888.888
88.8888888 .8888888888.8888888.888
88.8888.88.8888888888.888 8888.888
888....888......88888.8888888.888
88888 8888888888888888888888888888 upside your pasty white head

Re:CLIT IN THE HOUSE (-1)

L0rdkariya (562469) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553118)

This was my 100th post. It gladdens my heart that #100 was yet another successful first post by a logged-in troll.

CHEESECAKE IN THE HOUSE (-1)

Anonymous Cowrad (571322) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553183)

So then I got this idea about driving a cheesecake truck,
Because I figured at the end of the day I could take some of the leftover cheesecakes home,
And I love cheesecake.
So I went to the cheesecake company,
And they asked me if I could drive a truck,
And I said yes and they said you're hired.
So the next day I got in the truck with all the cheesecakes,
And I drove about a block and I just had to have a cheesecake.
So I pulled over and I opened the trunk and I got a cheesecake,
And I also took one for later,
And I took one for my friend Farmboy,
And I took one to bring home,
And by that time I had eaten one of the cheesecakes.
So I took another one.
Then I figured I might as well stop at my house to drop off all the cheesecakes.
So I take five cakes to eat on the way,
And I drive another block and a half to my house.
Now it's lunchtime so I eat ten cheesecakes and a cheesecake for desert.
I should point out by the way that all of these cheesecakes were very delicious.
Anyway, I decided that the only thing to do would be to eat all the
rest of the cheesecakes and hide the truck somewhere and leave town.
And I miss everybody a lot,
But I'm not really sorry,
Because they were very delicious cheesecakes.

SAVING PRIVATE GOATSE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553185)

* TROLL HIGH COMMAND *
* SPECIAL OPERATION 4A72FGSE - Q7 *

* CONFIDENTIAL * FOR YOUR EYES ONLY * CONFIDENTIAL *

Special mission: saving private Goatse

Soldier, your mission is to penetrate the enemy lines
and resue the private X.C. Goatse.
His brothers Penisbirdman, WIPO Troll, Hot Grits and his
naked and pertified sister Natalie Portman have
already been killed in this war against censorship and
bigotry at the slashdot frontpage theater.
We want to save his troll family from another tragic loss
and therefore remove him from the war and return him to
his home.
You have to find this private. He is member of the 2nd
troll parachuters who were dropped behind the enemy lines
to open a 2nd front and support our main attack at the first
post. His exact location is unfortunately unknown.
The objective of his team was to infest a BSD post and hold
the thread with *BSD is dying posts until our main forces arrive.
However, due to heavy moderation his team couldn't jump into the right
thread so we have only a very vague idea of his whereabouts.
After our primary attack at the first post, you have to penetrate
the enemy lines and search for this private.
This mission is very dangerous - we expect much bitchslapping
at the first post and zealot pro-linux moderation in the back.

Best luck soldier.
If you die in action, you'll be honored posthumus by a PWP crapflood.

General Borgus Trollus Trolligulus
Troll High Command
Special Operations

*BSD: We Hardly Knew Ye (-1)

returnofthe_spork (552824) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553091)

After consulting with top IT industry pundits [zdnet.com] , it has become all too clear: *BSD is dying.

The project has faced numerous setbacks in recent years, leading to waning developer interest and participation, a user-base migrating to Linux, Windows XP and Mac OS X, and no financial support whatsoever.

How did it happen? Well, these were the main events. First, *BSD split into 3 incompatible projects - FreeBSD, which focused on 386 and 486 machines; NetBSD, which focused on little-used architectures like Sparc and PPC; and OpenBSD, which focused on minimal functionality and poor performance. This split divided the already-small community and served to set up bitter rivalries. Then, Linux came along and stole all of *BSD's press, funding, and much of it's thunder with its better performance, functionality and ease-of-use. As if that weren't enough, OS X later took nearly all of the desktop *BSD users. And finally, in what has all but spelled out the demise of *BSD, two core developers have quit the project. First, Jordan Hubbard quit *BSD to get an actual paying job at Apple [slashdot.org] . He made this move citing OS X's superiority, *BSD's imminent demise, and his inability to feed his family with the broken promises of an SMP-enabled kernel. Shortly after that, Michael Smith left [slashdot.org] , saying simply, "It's true, *BSD is dying."

Where does all this leave the IT industry at large? Fortunately, the IT world is now healthier than ever. The death of *BSD is simply natural selection at work, as companies leave the shoddily written *BSD behind and move ahead with Windows XP, Mac OS X, and Linux.

RIP *BSD.

Do you really need certificates? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553101)

Basically, all companies require are skilled people. Just show them what you know, certificates are for those who don't know anything =)

It's a buyers market right now ... (5, Insightful)

pgrote (68235) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553117)

The supply of tech professionals for operations, non-development, is far outpaced by the demand. Right now it is simply a buyer's market. What does that mean for folks who hire:

1) We can demand experience. We don't have to take the time to train someone and get them up to speed.

2) We don't have to offer the salaries and benefits we did two years ago.

3) Certifications aren't as valuable as they once were. The last boom in certifications was the Cisco program and that has stagnated as the technology and programs have become entrenched. It's all cyclical with certification programs anyway. You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits.

The other fact you need to face is the best way to secure employment is not through classifieds and monster.com, but personal contact with people in the field. Join user groups, go to vendor tech demos and start meeting people.

Good luck.

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (5, Informative)

Zarhan (415465) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553168)

3) Certifications aren't as valuable as they once were. The last boom in certifications was the Cisco program and that has stagnated as the technology and programs have become entrenched. It's all cyclical with certification programs anyway. You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits.

Actually, with Cisco, there is a clear asset for an employer to have an CCIE in the workforce. Currently, Cisco alters pricing based on the number of CCIE's working for a company (In the case of telco's and other big players with large contracts, at least). So if you are into telecommunications sector, CCIE is a nice thing to have if you are applying for a job in a firm that has lot of Cisco equipment and support contracts.

(Correct me if I'm wrong - as I have understood it, this was the situation at least six months ago)

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (2)

pgrote (68235) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553201)

Yep, but in a buyer's market you look at two things:

Availablity of CCIEs -- They aren't as exclusive as they once were.

Costs to Secure CCIEs -- The situation used to exist where there was zero help or preperation available for CCIE exams. Now you can take the boot camps, etc. It waters down the field.

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (3, Interesting)

NoMoreNicksLeft (516230) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553335)

Still under 4000 CCIE's worldwide. There are no boot camps for it, and very little study materials. Only 2 places in North America to take it, RTP in N. Carolina, and I believe in San Jose.

I've never met anyone that I believe could pass it, and I certainly couldn't. Even the CCNA wasn't a joke(like the MCSE exams). I'm scared of the CCNP.

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (-1)

CmdrTaco on (468152) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553171)

I never had a chance to fuck your mother. How does it feel? [thekan.org]

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (2)

Washizu (220337) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553203)

The other fact you need to face is the best way to secure employment is not through classifieds and monster.com, but personal contact with people in the field.

Very true, but don't count out monster [monster.com] . I got my current post-graduation job through monster (my employer found me) and I also secured 3 other interviews through them, including one with Blue Sky Studios [blueskystudios.com] of Ice Age [iceagemovie.com] fame. Didn't get that job, though heh.

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (2, Informative)

afidel (530433) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553235)

3) Certifications aren't as valuable as they once were. The last boom in certifications was the Cisco program and that has stagnated as the technology and programs have become entrenched. It's all cyclical with certification programs anyway. You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits.

I would disagree with both points, the CCNP and CCIE are still very valuable, while the NP doesn't guarentee 6 figure slaries it should open some doors that would otherwise remain closed. As far a cyclical goes I got my NT4 MCSE at the trailing edge of that cycle (8 months before it was officially retired) and while I will have to upgrade to 2k once the the economy starts up/I get laid off I think that it helped a ton.

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (5, Interesting)

Thu Anon Coward (162544) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553277)

The supply of tech .... Right now it is simply a buyer's market. 1) We can demand experience. We don't have to take the time to train someone and get them up to speed. 2) We don't have to offer the salaries and benefits we did two years ago. 3) You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits. ...best way to secure employment is through personal contact...


I'll vouch for that. If I was hiring, I'd be looking for experience, certs be damned.

let's put it this way. if you even GET a job in the IT industry right now, you'll be damn lucky with all the bloodletting that happened last year. the best thing you can do right now is get an IT job anywhere, doing anything. if your code-fu skills are strong enough, this will appear doing your regular job duties of tech support/sys admin/dba/et cetera. You can then use those skills to leverage your way into a lead position in the department which you can then use to leverage yourself into another department where you really want to be.

besides, starting at ground zero of tech support should teach you some empathy of what techs go thru. thank god I don't do that no more.

with a wife and mortgage, I'm just happy to have a decent paying steady job working for a government IT department. that 's the kind of job you should be looking for, one that pays the bills.

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... (2)

Skapare (16644) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553299)

Back when there was a big demand for people and it was hard to find them, the managers doing the hiring didn't do the contact thing you are suggesting. There were in fact, quite many people available, but the communication wasn't there, so they just didn't connect. Maybe the situation today is similar, where so many people are not connecting because they don't go out and pursue contacts.

The fundamental problem, though, is that neither side is really doing it. In good times or bad, communication is the key, and it's not working very well ... but mostly because people don't really try to do it. I've been to user groups and vendor demos. There's plenty of people looking for work, but still no jobs. Back when the situation was reversed, there were managers begging for people, and no one willing to change jobs. Still, you gotta try.

We do need something better, though. Trouble is, monster and dice and the like are not doing it. Maybe slashdot could? Who knows. You got any better ideas?

Re:It's a buyers market right now ... AGREED (3, Interesting)

jackb_guppy (204733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553349)

If you KNOW your stuff, you can write your ticket.

But asking "what certs will help?" Shows one thing - you don't.

That is harsh. I know. I from the other end of 20+ years of experience, with no degree, no certs AND DO NOT WANT THEM.

All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none).

The only proof is showing your skills, that means taking over the interview controling thier attention, showing you have some thing to provide.

But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it? Why not have history degree instead? Gives you the same advange, in the tech world.

Remember, tech breaks down to operators and designers.

If you can not code, design a database (500+ tables) or build a network (1000+ seats in multiple locations) then you are an operator.

There is a lot of operators out there. That is what is a buyers market.

Location? (1)

drgnvale (525787) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553124)

I don't know how much certifications really help, except to show that you have "experiance." Your two years of co-op should have counted for a good bit. Maybe the area in which you are looking for work is just really tight, and they need someone with a bit more experiance. Have you tried looking for a job somewhere that was less crowded?

Perhaps you should move? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553125)

If you can't find a job with 2 years Exp and a BSC in your local area perhaps it is time you considered moving somewhere else?

Unless you're applying to jobs that are no entry level you should not have problems finding a job.

eep! (-1)

Anonymous Cowrad (571322) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553128)

This early post is dedicated to your lord and saviour, jesus christ.

go jeez!

We dont need no stinking Certs (2, Insightful)

rhost89 (522547) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553129)

Heh, certs arnt the way to go, and unfortunatly the best recomendation i have for you is experiance. Ive been in the field for 8 years now doing this and that (Programming, Sys admin, Consulting, Helldesk, etc...) and have found that nothing beats time under your belt. I only have 2 of my 4 years finished for my BSCS, and i only have one cert (Stupid aironet wireless engineer before they were bought out by cisco) so certs and school arnt the only things that employers are looking for. Know your shit, and know it well and all will be good :)

Re:We dont need no stinking Certs (3, Informative)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553180)

Nothing beats time under your belt, but if you don't have time, then what?

I'd recommend at the least a BS in CS, oh, and wear a clean shirt, minimal face piercings, tasteful haircut, use of mouthwash and leaving your ego at the door for any interviews. It is a buyers market and that means you've got to be on your best behavior, since you can bet others will go so far as to wear a tie to get the job. 1999 was like last century, ok?

Re:We dont need no stinking Certs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553298)

what also helps is to not sound like this moron in any way..

talk like an educated, upstanding human being... sittin' dere talkin' shit an' DAT dont impress anyone but the homies... and will guarentee you NEVER getting the job.

#1, walk, talk, and DRESS like a professional.

Certifications? Make mine two-ply. (2)

Wakko Warner (324) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553131)

I don't think I've ever been asked for any certifications during interviews. I haven't seen many job postings in which certification was even mentioned, much less required. This was all sysadmin work.

Maybe you should just work on your resume a little more?

- A.P.

Re:Certifications? Make mine two-ply. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553237)

This brings up a good point. I now know why MCSE's require so many tests, for extra comfort. ;)

But seriously, I have found as well that people with certs usually are worse at their field than those who simply have the experience. If you have the experience then tout it.

Re:Certifications? Make mine two-ply. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553329)

I have never been asked for certs either. Been asked "do you have a degree..." several times.

well... (1)

jeffy124 (453342) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553135)

I must admit now that I cannot add much to help you, except that the story sounds familiar. I also go to a school with a co-op program, and a lot of CS/ECE related majors are having trouble getting jobs, including with the people they worked for on co-op. A good many are sticking around for an extra couple years and getting their Master's before trying the job market again.

Re:well... (1)

drgnvale (525787) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553160)

>>are having trouble getting jobs, including with >>the people they worked for on co-op. Is that because the market was too tight, or because they bungled things up while on co-op? I really like saying bungled.

Re:well... (1)

jeffy124 (453342) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553265)

oftentimes goofing off on the job is why a person doesnt get hired FT upon graduation. but given the sheer number of students (and not just CS/ECE, more like any major) getting rejected from co-op employers suggests that they're simply being victimized by the current market conditions.

The Linux Gay Conspiracy (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553137)

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

  • Linus Torvalds [microsoft.com] is an anagram of slit anus or VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.
  • Richard M. Stallman [geocities.com] , spokespervert for the Gaysex's Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of mans cram thrill ad.
  • Alan Cox [microsoft.com] is barely an anagram of anal cox which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual [goatse.cx] propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for secondary rim and cord in my arse. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail [microsoft.com] , which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male' -- a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, 'felching' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into 'e-male.'

As far as Richard 'Master' Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted [salon.com] on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following: 'I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance,' he says. 'It's about being able to question conventional wisdom,' he asserts. 'I believe in love, but not monogamy,' he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo [comp-u-geek.net] slut [rotten.com] !

Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual [goatse.cx] perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children [slashdot.org] . To quote from the article linked:

'I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis [rotten.com] in the cinema, Jon? And letting the other boys touch it too?

We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot's resident Gasbag.' Is there any more doubt? For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual [goatse.cx] terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his homosexual [goatse.cx] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.

Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.

In addition, many of the Linux distributions (a 'distribution' is the most common way to spread the faggots' wares) are run by faggot groups. The Slackware [redhat.com] distro is named after the 'Slack-wear' fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes. Furthermore, Slackware is a close anagram of claw arse, a reference to the homosexual [goatse.cx] practise of anal fisting. The Mandrake [slackware.com] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists, and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator. It was also chosen because it is an anagram for dark amen and ram naked, which is what they do.

Another 'distro,' (abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like 'Disco,' which is where homosexuals [goatse.cx] preyed on young boys in the 1970s), is Debian, [mandrake.com] an anagram of in a bed, which could be considered innocent enough (after all, a bed is both where we sleep and pray), until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares. 'Woody' is obvious enough, being a term for the erect male penis [rotten.com] , glistening with pre-cum. But far sicker is the phrase 'Frozen Potato' that they use. This filthy term, again found in the secret homosexual [goatse.cx] 'Sauce Code,' refers to the solo homosexual [goatse.cx] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag, shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus, then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid. The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato' up his own rectum, squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.

And Red Hat [debian.org] is secret homo [comp-u-geek.net] slang for the tip of a penis [rotten.com] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.

The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry! For example, the 'supermount' tool was devised to allow deeper penetration, which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland. 'Automount' is used, on the other hand, because Linux users are all fat and gay, and need to mount each other [comp-u-geek.net] automatically.

The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of 'mount points.' These are, plainly speaking, the different points of penetration. The main one is obviously /anus, but there are others. Militant fags even say 'there is no /opt mount point' because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.

More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love `man`, even going so far as to say that all new Linux users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should try out `man`. In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.

Other areas of the system also show Linux's inherit gayness. For example, people are often told of the 'FAQ,' but how many innocent heterosexual Windows [amiga.com] users know what this actually means. The answer is shocking: Faggot Anal Quest: the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags!

Even the title 'Slashdot [geekizoid.com] ' originally referred to a homosexual [goatse.cx] practice. Slashdot [kuro5hin.org] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting. The Slashbots, of course are those super-zealous homosexuals [goatse.cx] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses, as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users, the depraved work of Satan, http://www.eff.org/ [eff.org] .

The editors of Slashdot [slashduh.org] also have homosexual [goatse.cx] names: 'Hemos' is obvious in itself, being one vowel away from 'Homos.' But even more sickening is 'Commander Taco' which sounds a bit like 'Commode in Taco,' filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with excrement [pboy.com] . (The best form of lubrication, they insist.) Sometimes, these 'Taco Commodes' have special 'Salsa Sauce' (blood from a ruptured rectum) and 'Cheese' (rancid flakes of penis [rotten.com] discharge) toppings. And to make it even worse, Slashdot [notslashdot.org] runs on Apache!

The Apache [microsoft.com] server, whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS, is named after homosexual [goatse.cx] activity -- as everyone knows, popular faggot band, the Village People, featured an Apache Indian, and it is for him that this gay program is named.

And that's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.

To summarise: Linux is gay. 'Slash -- Dot' is the graphical description of the space between a young boy's scrotum and anus. And BeOS [apple.com] is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers.'

FEEDBACK

What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do. I'm scared I actually read this whole thing. I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people. This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this. And actually take the time to do it too. Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it's early. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well, the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux 'Sauce code' once. Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer (and haven't you always been worried about the phrase 'Monolithic Kernel'?), this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race, as well as a few of the major animal species. It has shocked and disturbed me, to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to warn them of the impending homo [comp-u-geek.net] -calypse which threatens to engulf our planet.

You must work for the government. Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot won't be able to continue or something, due to legal woes. If i ever see your ugly face, i'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass, after it's nice and hot, to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Doesn't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it's way up my most sacred of sphincters? You're beyond help, my friend, as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man. Are you sure you're not Eric Raymond? The government, being populated by limp-wristed liberals, could never stem the sickening tide of homosexual [goatse.cx] child molesting Linux advocacy. Hell, they've given NAMBLA free reign for years!

you really should post this logged in. i wish i could remember jebus's password, cuz i'd give it to you. -- mighty jebus [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Thank you for your kind words of support. However, this document shall only ever be posted anonymously. This is because the 'Open Sauce' movement is a sham, proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom. I speak for the common man. For any man who prefers the warm, enveloping velvet folds of a woman's vagina [bodysnatchers.co.uk] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child. These men, being common, decent folk, don't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture. I am the unknown liberator [hitler.org] .

ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

We shouldn't hate them, we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society. This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of Baywatch until the very mention of Pamela Anderson [rotten.com] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual jism [zillabunny.com] .

Actually, that's not at all how scrotal inflation works. I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum. I've never tried this, but you can read how to do it safely in case you're interested. (Before you moderate this down, ask yourself honestly -- who are the real crazies -- people who do scrotal inflation, or people who pay $1000+ for a game console?) -- double_h [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Well, it just goes to show that even the holy Linux 'sauce code' is riddled with bugs that need fixing. (The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me.) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this, with their queer slogan: 'Given enough arms, all rectums are shallow.' And anyway, the PS2 [xbox.com] sucks major cock and isn't worth the money. Intellivision forever!

dude did u used to post on msnbc's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

For one thing, whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing, NT [linux.com] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film, enjoying the restriction enforced onto them. Remember, a wasted arousal is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church [atheism.org] . Clearly, the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor. All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems. It is the only route to salvation.

Secondly, this message is for every man. Computers know no colour. Not only that, but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by a Black Man [stilproject.com] . Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher.

And don't forget that slashdot was written in Perl, which is just too close to 'Pearl Necklace' for comfort.... oh wait; that's something all you heterosexuals do.... I can't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them. -- phee [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Although there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman's breasts, squirting one's load up towards her neck and chin area, it should be noted that Perl [python.org] (standing for Pansies Entering Rectums Locally) is also close to 'Pearl Monocle,' 'Pearl Nosering,' and the ubiquitous 'Pearl Enema.'

One scary thing about Perl [sun.com] is that it contains hidden homosexual [goatse.cx] messages. Take the following code: LWP::Simple -- It looks innocuous enough, doesn't it? But look at the line closely: There are two colons next to each other! As Larry 'Balls to the' Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation, Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of 'colon kissing,' whereby two homosexual [goatse.cx] queers spread their buttocks wide, pressing their filthy torn sphincters together. They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone. This is also referred to in programming 'circles' as 'Parameter Passing.'

And PHP [perl.org] stands for Perverted Homosexual Penetration. Didn't you know?

Thank you for your valuable input on this. I am sure you will be never forgotten. BTW: Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars? Mars rulaa. -- Eimernase [slashdot.org] , Slashdot

Well, I don't know about terraforming Mars, but I do know that homosexual [goatse.cx] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years.

That's inspiring. Keep up the good work, AC. May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community, and make it pure again. Yours, Cerberus. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

*sniff* That brings a tear to my eye. Thank you once more for your kind support. I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the Good Lord [atheism.org] 's work, but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.

However, I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot. It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing, in intimate, exacting detail, how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals; be they domesticated, wild, or mythical. Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide, treating it as an 'extension' to the Linux 'Sauce Code,' for the sake of 'interoperability.' (The slang term they use for nonconsensual intercourse -- their favourite kind.)

In fact, sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties, (Love of Anal Naughtiness, needless to say.), wherein they entice a stray dog, known as the 'Samba Mount,' into their homes. Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect, throbbing, uncircumcised members, conkers-deep, into the rectum, mouth, and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal. Eventually, the 'Samba Mount' collapses due to 'overload,' and needs to be 'rebooted.' (i.e., kicked out into the street, and left to fend for itself.) Many Linux users boast about their 'uptime' in such situations.

Inspiring stuff! If only all trolls were this quality! -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

If only indeed. You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible. I recommend '+1, Underrated,' as that will protect your precious Karma in Metamoderation [slashdot.org] . Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture. Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened 'Bender'???

If we can get just one of these postings up to at least '+1,' then it will be archived forever! Others will learn of our struggle, and join with us in our battle for freedom!

It's pathetic you've spent so much time writing this. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I am compelled to document the foulness and carnal depravity [catholic.net] that is Linux, in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow. It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.

As with any great open-source project, you need someone asking this question, so I'll do it. When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready?!?! -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I could make an arrogant, childish comment along the lines of 'Every time someone asks for 2.0, I won't release it for another 24 hours,' but the truth of the matter is that I'm quite nervous of releasing a 'number two,' as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I've even had chance to wipe.

I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel, you sexy hunk, you. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

I sincerely hope you're Natalie Portman [geocities.com] .

Dude, nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading. Try to distill the message, whatever it was, and maybe I'll read it. As it is, I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time. 10 seconds is all its gonna take M$ to whoop Linux's ass. Vigilence is the price of Free (as in libre -- from the fine, frou frou French language) Software. Hack on fellow geeks, and remember: Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Those godless, oil drench, bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons (another fine, fine French word) and eat that. Anyway, try to keep your message focused and concise. For concision is the soul of derision. Way. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

What the fuck?

I've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I'm impressed. In particular, I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing homos [comp-u-geek.net] tend to be full of. Thank you again. -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Well bugger me!

ooooh honey. how insecure are you!!! wann a little massage from deare bruci. love you -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot

Fuck right off!

IMPORTANT: This message needs to be heard (Not HURD [linux.org] , which is an acronym for 'Huge Unclean Rectal Dilator') across the whole community, so it has been released into the Public Domain [icopyright.com] . You know, that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the GPL [apple.com] (Gay Penetration License) that is no more than an excuse to see who's got the biggest feces-encrusted [rotten.com] cock. I would have put this up on Freshmeat [adultmember.com] , but that name is known to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.

Come to think of it, the whole concept of 'Source Control' unnerves me, because it sounds a bit like 'Sauce Control,' which is a description of the homosexual [goatse.cx] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation, thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver's scrotum. And 'Open Sauce' is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later. Obviously, 'Closed Sauce' is the only Christian thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about.

Contributors: (although not to the eternal game of 'soggy biscuit' that open 'sauce' development has become) Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, phee, Anonymous Coward, mighty jebus, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, double_h, Anonymous Coward, Eimernase, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward. Further contributions are welcome.

Current changes: This version sent to FreeWIPO [50megs.com] by 'Bring BackATV' as plain text. Reformatted everything, added all links back in (that we could match from the previous version), many new ones (Slashbot bait links). Even more spelling fixed. Who wrote this thing, CmdrTaco himself?

Previous changes: Yet more changes added. Spelling fixed. Feedback added. Explanation of 'distro' system. 'Mount Point' syntax described. More filth regarding `man` and Slashdot. Yet more fucking spelling fixed. 'Fetchmail' uncovered further. More Slashbot baiting. Apache exposed. Distribution licence at foot of document.

ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... Up your ass!

What I did... (1)

kiley (95428) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553138)

I also have a BSCS but I went and got a CCIE because I liked the hardware side of the field. (and couldn't code my way out of a box.) With those 2 you should be able to work at any shop with some competence.

Re:What I did... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553251)

Thats all fine and good but did you mention to the people reading this what it takes to become a CCIE?
You need experience man. In our shop we are still paying our 2 CCIEs well into the 6 figure market. That is one tough certification to get.

M5C (0, Offtopic)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553141)

Mad 5ki11z Cert From CowboyNeals Kollege of 1337 IT Training & Bread Crumb Emporium.

Oh, wait, this wasn't one of the damn polls...

Certs will help you (5, Insightful)

SquadBoy (167263) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553143)

get an interview but will not get you a job. The answer to your question is that you need certs for which you have experience and which you can back up with knowledge that goes above and beyond what is needed to get the cert. Also you need to know who is hiring in your area. For example to get my current job I had a lot of experience with firewalls in general and I know a firm in my area which has *very* good reasons to be paranoid where hiring a networking guy. I also have a bunch of networking experience. I found out through a friend that they use Checkpoint based firewalls. So I downloaded a Checkpoint demo got a book spent some time on it and got a CCSA. Combined with my background that set me apart from the crowd enough to get the job. :) Do your homework and try to do something you have a good background in and it should work. Also just a note a good recuriter is worth their weight in gold. Many will say I'm wrong and YMMV but recuriters have worked wonders for me.

Re:Certs will help you (1)

Gomer Pyle (566981) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553284)

Certs won't even get you an interview most of the time in a job market like this. Employeers want experience. And if you don't have it, then too bad. They will find someone who does. It's all about supply and demand and there is no demand right now.

I have 2 certs and 4 years of professional experience and I was unemployed for 7 months last year. The only way I landed my current job was by networking and knowing people in the company.

Re:Certs will help you (1)

SquadBoy (167263) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553311)

You will notice that my story includes all of those elements. The cert was a part of it but is by no means a silver bullet that was the point of my little story.

Welcome to a slow job market (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553144)

Your real problem is that the economy is in the tank, so you are competing with people with at least as much education and more experience. This happened to me back in '91 when I finished by B.S.

Keep at it, you'll find something eventually.

Certs (2)

NetJunkie (56134) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553149)

Most IT certifications are manufacturer specific, meaning if you work with Cisco gear you get the Cisco certs. Very few cover an idea or a broad technology. So, a Network Engineer would get the Cisco cert since they use the equipment.

The problem is that people run out and get these certs without ever using the software/equipment and expect to get hired using it. It doesn't work that way. You get experience some where and then get the cert to expand on it. Experience first, then certs. A Cisco cert without router time is worthless.

Tired Refrain (5, Insightful)

yancey (136972) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553152)

I'm getting very tired of certifications. I know too many "certified" people who have NO EXPERIENCE! They know all about how it's supposed to work, but can't fix it when it breaks. I'm tired of it! Get me somebody who has a true interest in computing, not just paper credentials and making money.

Hi, I'm tony! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553154)

Will you be my friend?

Its who you know (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553157)

I've recently graduated College (MIS), no certificates. Looking over my history, I have never gotten a job without knowing someone.

Often times its not what you know, but who you know and knowing things is just a benefit.

Re:Its who you know (2)

Skapare (16644) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553319)

Sad, isn't it, that so many managers only hire people they know, and still end up whining (even in this economy) that finding good people is hard to do. Maybe they should start looking for people on the basis of qualifications for a change.

It's sad, but true. (2, Informative)

unicron (20286) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553158)

The demand for certs in the industry just shows me how ignorant the industry is. You don't know how many job postings I see asking for certs that don't even exist, like the one I saw the other day wishing to hire a Cisco Certified Systems Engineer(I kid you not). I also can't stand seeing job offers that would rather have a college degree than any experience. We just hired an MIS graduate as a network tech that had to be shown the difference between a router and switch on his first day.

If you want to know what certs will really help you, get your CCNA, the new Cisco cert that covers voice over IP, some project planning cert, and maybe pursue your Six Sigma belts if you're in the high level industry.

Hope this helped.

my experience out of college... (2)

bje2 (533276) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553162)

i don't really have a comment about the certifications...cause i don't really have any myself...although any Java 2 certifications look pretty good (atleast in the line of software consulting that i do)...

in any case, the job market right now sucks, (especially for tech people), and has sucked since late 2001...when i was searching for a job my senior year of college (2001-02) i saw the end of the boom where computer science majors could write their own blank check right away out of school...actually, early in my senior year i signed on with an internet consulting company in nyc for $70K...nice...atleast i thought so...as 2002, came, the economy was even more in the down turn, and a lot of companies started revoking their offers to college graduates (including mine)...so, to make a long story short, i graduated without a job...i ended up having to take an internship with a smaller software consulting company for the summer...but they eventually hired me in Septmber, and i enjoy my job very much...

i guess my point is not to worry if you don't have a job right away...the job climate sucks right now...but computers and the internet aren't going anywhere (duh)...

in any case, it's better to not have a job and be able to look for work, then to sign on with a company and have them keep pushing back their start date...i have friends from school who graduated with me in june of 2001 and went to work with big consulting companies like Accenture...they just recently (Jan or Feb) started...true, Accenture did throw them a little bit of money before hand, but i had a good 6 or 7 months of work experience in before they even started...

To many CS know nothings (1)

mrgrey (319015) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553165)

I go to collage for CS and there are many, many, MANY poeple in my class(s) that know absolutely nothing about CS exept what is in the books. This is a problem because they get better grades than most of the people that do know computers for real. Now companies think grades are important and say that you need a AD or 2yrs exp to get a job. It seems like you shouldn't have a problem since you have both.
Companies like to see such trivial things as pieces of paper because it makes them feel good to know they can brag paper to someone else. The like the Micro$oft certs, A+ garbage etc. Anything they don't uderstand is a plus too.

Re:To many CS know nothings (5, Funny)

tommck (69750) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553228)

I go to collage for CS...

Is that the big bulletin board with the pictures of people and things from the CS department? ;-)

T

A+ != Garbage!!!!! (1)

Limburgher (523006) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553238)

While not the be-all end-all of certification, A+ certified techs know a TON more than some people who run and/or work in IT departments. Some of my cow-orkers are fine examples of this. Experience without skills. Authority without knowledge. And almost comical attempts at diagnosis. .

Re:To many CS know nothings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553250)

What kind of collages do you make? I like the kind with macaroni myself.

Spelling *is* important, especially when you're telling people that you go to collage. Try doing that on a job resume and see how far you get.

Re:To many CS know nothings (1)

Morgahastu (522162) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553259)

They also like people who can spell. But you do have a good point, it reminds me of the blonde girls in high school who got As in all the classes but were actually dumb as stones.

Re:To many CS know nothings (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553316)

And they probably all spell better and have better grammar than you too, huh? In every job I've had, effective communication is/was key. If you can't write well, how can you expect to do the job well, especially if you work with teams of people?

Re:To many CS know nothings (5, Insightful)

Osty (16825) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553339)

(emphasis added by me)

I go to collage for CS and there are many, many, MANY poeple in my class(s) that know absolutely nothing about CS exept what is in the books. This is a problem because they get better grades than most of the people that do know computers for real.

(and so on)

Perhaps while you're at college, you might consider taking some non-Engineering courses. Learn to spell, use proper grammar. Become a well-rounded individual. Learn to communicate concepts and ideas effectively. From all indications, while you may be one of those "people that do know computers for real," you're not a very appealing employment candidate due to your poor communication skills. Then again, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "know computers for real," since if you're not getting good grades in your CS classes, how much can you really know about CS? (Computer Science != just computers. there's a metric pantload of theory and algorithms to learn. It doesn't matter if you're the fastest linux installer in the West, if you don't learn that theory you'll never be able to call yourself a Computer Scientist, regardless of what your degree eventually says.)


College is about more than just hunkering down and focusing strictly on your one chosen subject. Sure, there's a time and place for that, but as long as you're going to be there for 4+ years (milk another year or two out of the parents while the economy's in the pooper), you may as well take some time and attend some interesting classes that will grow your knowledge in other directions than just computers computers computers.

Depending on where you live... (3, Insightful)

coyote-san (38515) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553166)

Depending on where you live, nothing you do will make a bit of difference. No internship or certification can compete with someone with years of experience forced into an entry level job to pay the mortgage.

What can I say, recessions suck. The only thing worse is recessions that politicians are bending over backwards to deny exist. (E.g., our governor says that we're past the worst of it, the economy is picking up... and a few pages into the paper the person in charge of the unemployment compensation/job matching agency admits that they're still overwhelmed by the unprecedented demand from thousands of people new to the system.)

P.S., I started out in similar (but localized) conditions. A major employer announced massive layoffs, and suddenly I was competing against people with years of experience. I found a job at about 2/3 of what I was discussing weeks earlier, and the entire organization was pathological. But it was a job and where they saw me putting in lots of unpaid overtime, I saw squeezing a year of experience into 6 months. Just keep repeating "this too shall pass."

Contacts are more important than Certifications (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553170)

In my experience, sending letters and resumes to job postings is a difficult route, regadless of your certifications or degrees. The best way to get any job is through a friend (or a friend of a friend). If you can't find a job that way, at least try and call the companies that you are mailing to. Letters and email are impersonal and easy to turn down.

Ability to solve problems (5, Insightful)

sphealey (2855) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553173)

I hire technical people on their ability to solve problems. Between two people of equal problem-solving ability, I will pick the one with the best non-technical communication skills.

To the extent that certifications act as a marker for a person's curosity, desire to learn, and humbleness in the face of the unknown, I will take them into account. However, I would rather have an English Lit major with zero technical background who can solve an unfamiliar problem from scratch than a 3 month/employer guy with a bag full of paper certifications.

To the extent that I consider certifications at all, I will look in order at Cisco certs (past the CNA), Novell CNE or Master CNE, Pine Mountain Group network analyst certs, a broad background in Unix, and of course any professional engineer certs.

But for what kind of job, you ask? Remember, I don't match up specific certs to my current position needs. I have never seen a person with a deep knowledge of Netware have any problem picking up what he needs to know about NT, but I have certainly seen the person with 38 Microsoft certs be unable to figure out how to configure a 2-router Cisco network.

My 0.02.

sPh

The best place to start... (2, Interesting)

cronack (220951) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553181)

...for you would be:

1) Look at your (2 yrs coop) experience and what products/technologies you learned and/or liked.

2) Find a certification exam or exam "track" based upon those products/techs and get started.

For me to become an design level enterprise infrastructure consultant and instructor for the MS platform, it was appropriate to get my MCSE and MCT certs. I also find that some people do not need formal class training; self study can suffice (books, etc).

Oracle? J2EE? (2, Interesting)

gergnz (547809) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553188)

I guess I have been really lucky.

I landed a job before I finished Polytech, (when I was an Electronics Tech), I then managaed to get a low level Linux/NT admin role for a small company. Moving on from there has been the hard part. I have done Linux cert, and have started a BSc and found it really hard to get the position I am about to move into. This was gained by knowing people on the inside.

From personal experience Oracle is probably the best industry cert in terms of "employability". I can't say what the certification is like I have never done it.

On another note a friend was having a similar problem just recently. Finished degree, and couldn't get a job. He was on a benefit and the NZ Govt. paid for his J2EE cert that he did while on the benefit. Landed a job not long after.

If you want a job do the one with the most industry cred and later do the one you enjoy. Please the employer to get the foot in, then work towards doing what you enjoy.

There's only one certification that counts for you (0)

Anti-Microsoft Troll (577475) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553190)

The Certificate of Completion of Studies from Hamburger University in Oak Brook, Ill. It's your ticket to a crew member job (and the possibility of an eventual promotion to shift leader) in any McDonald's anywhere in the country.

Enjoy the recession, and thank you for participating in the overstaffed tech sector. It has been a pleasure taking your tuition money.

It All Comes Down To $$$... (2, Informative)

cybrpnk2 (579066) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553195)

A fairly good overview/jump point for the major certifications is here [certify.com] and some info about how much they add to your paycheck is here [computerjobs.com] ...

MCSE ("Must Crash Server Everyday") (3, Funny)

ThatTallGuy (520811) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553197)

A slight variant on the traditional MCSE [userfriendly.org] ....

Seriously -- A certificate only tells me what questions to start asking. It's sort of like that college question a few days ago: I don't want people who know things; I want people who can think and learn things.

You might be better off spending some time studying on your own and doing a free project of some sort for a local charity or school. It's something you can put on your resume and build up a bit rather than just one line of questionable value... and good for the community as well.

Job Offer! no expences involved (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553206)

You can get a job in the Open Source Sector.
It is free! you don't have to pay anything :)

I'm sorry if I hurt someones feelings.
This is not a troll, merely a thought.

Make good examples and demos (1)

ricma (568346) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553209)

Its strange that certifications never took off here. The ONLY benefit i see from certifications is from companies that can join partner programs from software companies. Joining Microsoft partner program is a great way to save on licensing costs, they give you a ton for free for signing up. I say its strange here because in India, where we have an office, everyone and their Mom has certifications. We will not even interview people over there without certifications. The problem... some of the people know nothing. And by nothing i mean absolutely nothing. We had 1 guy with a ton of ASP certications that could not do anything... The only certification i have ever heard is possibly worth it is the project management certification. Other than that if i see a MCSE certification i wonder if something is wrong with the guy for wasting so much time and money. Forget the certifications. Create some nice webpages and applicatoin demos. Network a ton. Then network more and you will be all set.

connections (3, Funny)

tps12 (105590) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553210)

Statistically, 10% of hirings are initiated with blind mailings. The rest all begin with networking. So when you are looking for a job, spend 10% of your time revising your resume and sending it to good targets, and spend the rest of the time following down leads in your personal network.

This is how I landed a job at a major Fortune 500 corporation. Basically, I had administered a high-latency gigabit-class network of Mac III's in school in the late 80's. This was top-of-the-line research stuff back then, though it sure looks antique today. Long story short, my vice admin's older brother married the daughter of a major figure in the Juarez prawn industry [google.com] , and I got my foot in the door. Now I'm pulling 7 figures with a staff of 72, with nowhere to go but up. So all those guys you sorta got along with in school? Keep the numbers, man. Even when you land a job, you never know when you'll be looking again.

Good luck.

No Certs, No Degree - doing just fine (0, Flamebait)

NTS_NachO (415940) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553214)

I have considered many times that i should get my some Certs or get a degree, but with my experience I've never needed them. It would only be for self-satisfaction. I work with people that have everything from A+ to a MCSE, CCNE, and MCNE. I make just as much and more in some cases as them.

CISSP (1)

jukal (523582) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553218)

I have got a couple of job offers atleast partially because of my CISSP certificate [isc2.org] (Certified Information Systems Security Professional). But then again, you are not supposed to get this certificate without an existing job-record, so it might be not interesting for you - but checkout the url.

I have heard also some other people saying that it is a good bonus - and it is actually a requirement for some positions. And it does not harm you to have that in your pocket even though your work is not stricly related to information security. Security is (or should be) still a crucial piece in any software.

But personally, I don't believe a certificate is a shortcut for getting a job. It might work as an aggregate after you got your first job. Instead, I believe the solution is hard work - have a CD/floppy or whatever loaded with software made by you as hobby with you when you go to a job interview. I have raised thumbs up many times because of the candidate's participation in some OSS project or similar.

Speech class (1)

newt_sd (443682) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553222)

If you want to seperate yourself from everyone else in the field. Take some speech classes. It looks to me that you have the education requirements and work history (as much as can be expected fresh out of school). If you want to set yourself apart show them that you have effective communication skills and can discuss, in an understandable manner, complex technical thingies!!! You will be working with hoards of dumb asses that do not understand technology and for the most part your fellow classmates are coming out of school with no social skills what so ever. Prepare yourself for the first interview you get by practicing these key trades and then see if you get a job. I bet it will work.

IT Certifications are the Ponzi schemes of today (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553223)

IT Certifications doen't mean much, the only time I'll even consider one is if it was earned while working on that particular area. Example, I hired a person who had been working in software test (on a PC based product) but took Microsoft certification courses on the side and worked her way into doing some PC support. The certification gave her some knowledge but I was far more impressed by her drive and experience she gained while working on that certificaiton.

Sitting in a classroom, no mater how hands on, doesn't give you problem solving expereince. Save your money.

Not to be discouraging but... (2)

jeff67 (318942) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553224)

Your problem can be summarized in three words:
The Economy Sucks.

More experienced, more certified, more desperate (i.e. supporting families) people are having a hard time finding IT jobs right now.

Another post suggests moving your location. Do some research and figure out where there's a relative lack of demand and target that area. Or live in your parents basement.

Sweet Jesus, it's the 20th already?! (4, Funny)

partingshot (156813) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553226)

Or did somebody change the date for the monthly
'which cert' question on /.?

Same Boat Here (2)

da3dAlus (20553) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553231)

Right now it doesn't seem to mean a lot to employers if you're certified or not. All they want is experience. I also just graduated with a BS in Comp Sci, have 5 years of internship experience with a real business, and I have yet to get even a single interview set up. My currently employer even has me on a temporary basis until they can decide to start hiring again for full-time positions.

Back to the topic, I don't think the certification is that important, or at least not as much as it was in years past. I remember there was a demand for it, mainly since the experienced workers were employed, and the ones seeking jobs were a bit too green. Now the experienced people are the ones in the job market, and the focus is on years of real work, not the number of certificates saying you think you know how things are supposed to work. And since there's no way to know when certification will be a hiring point again, there's no reason to spend time and money to get certified for technology that may be dead by that time.

Sound like you want this specific job (3, Insightful)

slamb (119285) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553234)

Whether I work as programmer, sys admin or something else isn't an issue, since I need any job at this point

My boss recently hired someone here, and he was saying that while the candidates seemed eager, very few asked good questions or showed a lot of specific interest in this position. I think, like you, they wanted any job they could get. This attitude didn't really impress him.

The lesson, I think, is that you absolutely have to sound like you want this job, not any job. They're not going to hire you if they think you will immediately leave when you find something you like better, etc.

I'm not saying you necessarily showed this attitude in the actual interviews, but it's something to watch.

Re:Sound like you want this specific job (1)

slamb (119285) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553266)

I'm not saying you necessarily showed this attitude in the actual interviews, but it's something to watch.

Ergh. You didn't get actual interviews. Think-o there. I meant to say, in your cover letters. (I think you can convey that even in a cover letter and you certainly don't want to. "I want to work for your company." "How do you know that, since you don't yet know anything about our company?")

Certs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553236)

Your highest dollar certs in this industry are Oracle and Cisco. Tacking on a cissp wouldn't hurt these days either.

How about programmer job ? (1)

aepervius (535155) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553246)

Do you have some experience with Fortran ? Cobol ? Well there are a lot of job out there because nobody want to go into those programming language anymore. granted you won't earn a lot , because usually those company are cheapstake, but you will earn a lot more than Zero, and you will maintain your programmer (read logic) skills. I found a job in a company after 2 messy day of searching. And there was a lot more (salary equivalent) proposition coming in.

Work at a university... (1)

nlabadie (64769) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553252)

When I was 19 I accepted a full time tech position at a university. It's fairly easy to move up the ranks... you can double your salary in less than 3 years. They also pay for two classes a semester. Granted, you might be a bit older than you originally planned when you get your piece of paper, but you'll have a degree, PLUS a great amount of experience. Most universities also tend to encourage new ideas... it's almost like corporate america with a brain.

The best aren't peices of paper (3, Insightful)

photon317 (208409) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553255)


The best certification is validation by your peers. Locally attend small conferences, users groups, etc... get to know people in the field in your area, make your skills and understanding known. You might find a job directly through contact like that. At the least, you might make freinds with people with respectable established careers that you can use as references for employers to call and hear the good word about you.

Don't forget the on-line equivalent of this too - participate in technical newsgroups and mailing lists, help out with opensource projects, etc...

Look at What I Did (5, Informative)

sabinm (447146) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553257)

To tell you the truth, you need to go out and market yourself. Listen to what I did. I worked for a company that Cisco Systems outsourced to making 10 bucks an hour. The waiting list was about 1 yr to get on a tech team. All I did was route calls for so-called IT professionals.

Most of the calls I took the pros on the other end were less knowledgable than me on many subjects. I was so sick of doing it that I started sending out resumes to those companies. NO LUCK. They didn't care if I knew more or had more certs. They didn't even want to see me.

I went out and started up a small business in my neighborhood about a year ago, just fixing computers and doing home networking. That got my foot in the door. I went on the street hawking my wares to small offices, law offices, insurance agents, real estate offices and so forth.

Word got around and I got a couple of support contracts with med-sized businesses doing sys admin on their boxes. Real simple stuff that anyone could do. It's called comparative advantage. Now I've got a couple of contracts, and I'm negotiating a contract with a local general contractor to pull cable for new construction at 2500 a house. I have a pager and a cell and I make my own hours.

By the way--I'm 25 with 2yrs of college education. Comp Sci is not my major, nor ever was. But this helps with school a lot, and I have a family to feed. The only certs I have are A+ and my CCNA. I don't plan on doing this beyond graduation, but it's always a handy thing to have on your resume.

One last warning and advice. Warning. Insure yourself for about 1,000,000 per claim: the more certs and education you have, the cheaper insurance is. I pay about 2000/yr on prof. liability. Advice, join a professional association. You can network a lot and land tons of gigs. It worked for me.

Certificates not the answer... (4, Interesting)

Xandis (90167) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553262)

A BSc in Comp. Sci. and some co-op experience sounds more than enough to get your foot in the door (entry-level). Are you sure you are applying for the appropriate job? Perhaps you'll need to start lower than you want due to the sluggish economy? Since you are willing to work at any job, I would make sure that you aren't overlooking some of the lower end work (for the time being anyway) -- sys admin hopefully requires more experience than you have :) Likewise, look for "junior" positions as well. Look at non-tech companies that have tech needs (banks and insurance and investment companies for example).

I don't think certificates early in one's career are that beneficial since it starts looking like you are just too obviously trying to make up for lack of real-world experience by overloading your resume with these certificates. Certificates, in my opinion, are good ways for senior practicioners (i.e. those over 25 :) of demonstrating over time that they are keeping pace with current technologies.

Also, some people may use certificates to help with transitioning from a different career into tech (since going back to school is not an option).

My opinion: don't worry about the certificate issue and start doing a broader search for entry level tech positions.

** Also, it is hard for anyone to know WHY you didn't get an interview if we don't know exactly what your resume and cover letter contain and for what position you applied. You may just have a goofy sounding cover letter or weak resume.

Worse comes to worse, you can always do tech sales (I guarantee you can get a job there) -- man that phone boy!!!

Setting yourself apart from the masses (5, Informative)

lkaos (187507) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553271)

To quote a CNN article [cnn.com] :

"the most talented student will always have options."

Right now, the market is tight for programmers. This is no longer the field that anyone can get a degree in and automatically make 60K+ out of school. So, if you just got the degree because it was the hot thing to do, then your screwed.

If you really have a passion for computers though, then you will find that the market is still there. You just need to seperate yourself from everyone else. Forget certifications, that shows little self-direction, instead why don't you spend that effort developing a piece of open source software.

Write a piece of useful software that showcases your skills. Given the ability most folks have right out of college, this will definitely show that your worth hiring.

Or, if you can, take some time to really strengthen your skills. Companies are always hiring *good* programmers, regardless of the economy. Taking 6 months to study all the industry bibles (the GoF book, the Myers books, etc.) and learn the stuff that is actually useful in the real world. Do this instead of putzing around for 6 months looking at getting certs or drinking every night and you'll land a good job.

Why ask /. ? (1, Flamebait)

Beliskner (566513) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553273)

Dude, your first mistake - you've posted to /. which is predominantly IT specialists. /. people think it's all easy, but I bet if they actually went to their boss and asked, "So how many graduate recruits have we taken on this year?" they'll recoil in horror when they realise that there aren't enough jobs for the IT grads this year even if they come from Ivy league such as CMU.

If you look at StandardPoor [standardandpoor.com] you'll find that we're at or near the peak of company defaults in the US.... Unfortunately everyone's banking on a rebound and therefore a rebound won't happen. Sorry dude, I think you're gonna join next year's CMU and Berkeley IT grads on welfare. After that maybe it'll get better. The economy hasn't yet crashed enough to allow a strong rebound, but I don't expect a Japanese-style stagnation (they're having it real tough there).

The only cert that can get you a job is accountancy dude. But the rest of the /. people are going to try to make you feel good, and kid themselves that everything's OK. Wall Street does it as well, they're constantly 'talking up' the economy.

The reality of the matter is that even if you can code circles around Linus, as a new grad with < 10 years experience, you're gonna be on welfare for at least 18 months. Good degree, bad timing => plain bad luck. Sorry.

Starting out is always rough (2)

Prof_Dagoski (142697) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553275)


Granted, I didn't have BSc when I started out, but I spent a couple of years working low paying research assistant jobs before I made the jump to something I could really make a living at. Seriously, it took that long before it looked like I had enough experience to be attractive. Granted, I could've been more agressive in my job search, but, still it was always annoying to hear that my education was impressive, but I didn't have enough experience. I'll also note that I was looking for a scientific programming job back then and there was a PhD glut in the field which meant someone with a BS didn't stand a chance. Even so, once I got experience, especially in Internet stuff, the offers started coming in. Nothing gets an employers attention like real experience. Meanwhile, I've had mixed results with certs. I have a cert in SNMP and that's been a real boon, but my cert in Cabletron's Spectrum system has been a real waste. Glad I didn't pay for it. I think the difference is that one cert, the SNMP, says that I understand a field, while the other, Cabletron, says I know a specific system. The later is less valuable because you never know if employer has adopted that particular system. So, I'd say a good cert in something like Java, C++, SQL, or some other broad tech area would be good while windows XP cert might not be much help. But, anyway you slice it, this is tough time to be starting out in CS. I see lots of job opps for people with 5-10 years experience in "blah", but nothing entry level at all.

Certs not the answer (5, Informative)

Frums (112820) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553276)

As much as it sucks, certs aren't the answer. Speaking with a hea dhunter recently he did say companies care much more about certs now than they did a year ago - but that is because they can. There is a fairly large, experienced pool of talent out there.

Getting certs, however, is a very expensive proposition for osmeone currently unemployed. A typical test can now cost aroun $500, so accumulating a list of certs is not really an option.

Deciding WHAT you want to do is the first step. You might consider doing anything if the opportunity comes along, but in terms of getting certs you need ot focus more (unless you have more moneyt than you know what to do with, in which case why do you need a job so bad?). This means, yes, making a decision about your future. Youare free ot change it down the line, but you do have to choose - sysadmin/netadmin, development, dba, etc

After you figure what you want get experience doing it. The portfolio is becoming a tool of the unemployed developer. Showing first rate code that you have written, along with unit tests, use cases/user stories, UML diagrams etc make syou look better. Really, if you have littl eprofessional experience it is the best thing you can do to look good for a "walk in" interview.

Choose the direction you would like to steer and start a project, or get in on a starting project. Don't dive into an established open-source project. They might appreciate the help, but your goal here is to have somethign to show that YOU can claim 100% credit for. Comntributing bug fixes to gcc won't do that for you, though it might feel good.

The seoncd thing is become involved in the local development community. You might laugh, but this is possible. Hit Yahoo Group [yahoo.com] and search for any group in your area related for what you are doing. Make an emeail account that can accumulate spam, and sign up. Talk to people. Networking (people, not CCNA) is still the best way to find a job, period.

Only then, consider getting a cert or two. The ones I have seen being respected are the Sun Java developer certs (okay, JCP is sorta laughable, but the larger ones get nods), Cisco certs are respected, and Oracle certs are respected. Certs are no substitute for experience, unfortunately. Human resources may not realize this, but the hiring manager will.

FInally, find someone who IS a professional developer, who has undergone many code reviews, who knows how the system works in a decent shop and ask if they will review your code and designs. Buy them beer, coffee, crack, whatever it takes. When it comes down to the decision - your skill will determine your success. THis includes skill in talking the talk - and the only way to do that correctly is to really learn it. Most good developers are willing to help new people, it is flattering. There are various systems to try to make this easier via the net. In my experience these are not nearly as good as meeting someone via the aforementioned networking and offering to buy them a beer in exchange for picking their brain. While buying em a beer, slip in that you would really like if they could do somehting like a formal code review of your stuff - afterall, it is the only way to really improve.

Finally, read lots of code. Figure out how it works. Look at systems and make sur eyou understand em. A *great*, though boring as hell, way to do this is to write API docs for good projects. Do not contribute directly to them yet - your time is better spent building things you can claim redit for. Let's say you are into Java development, run by the Apache project and submit improved API docs. No one likes writing em, but to do it well you NEED to understand what the code does.

That, and know that you have my sympathies. The hiring market sucks right now.

-Frums

Frankly, I think you're looking for a magic answer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553287)

a magical cert that will get you hired.

It don't exist.

The first job out of college can be damned difficult to get. (Took me almost 9 months because were were in a slump like right now.)

A couple of suggestions:

  1. First, if you're young enough (and not tied down to a particular area), expand your search area. You might think you can't travel just out of college...but I guarentee it will be MUCH harder taking that travelling job when you're married, own a house and have kids. (Damn I wish I took that travelling job. :-)
  2. Look at the recruiting firms (they shouldn't charge you a fee). Put together a notebook with examples of code you have written.
  3. Lower your expectations. You don't want to know how little I was paid just getting out of college. It was followed by 3 years of unprecidented raises and 2 switching of jobs that tripled my salary.

CCIE? (3, Insightful)

sterno (16320) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553290)

The CCIE seems to be the one of the few certifications that, on it's own, will land you a job. Most certifications make you look a little better, but don't really mean jack against real world experience. The value of the cert is proportional to demand for the skills and the availability of those skills in the job market. For example, MCSE is in demand, but there are so many of them that it's not as valuable. CCIE's are in demand, but because it's hard to get the cert and expensive, it means the supply is still relatively low (at least last time I checked).

What I might suggest to you is simply get a list of a bunch of certifications and do searches on the various job sites to see how many hits you get, etc. That should give you a rough approximation of where the demand is. Also, maybe find a good technical recruiter and see what they recommend as the hot demand right now.

One bit of advice for you though is that I would put some careful thought into which direction you choose, be it programmer, admin, etc. A few years down the line you can change jobs, but if you do so you'll be very little better off than you are now due to the lack of relevant work experience in the new area. Tech jobs seem to seek people with very specific skill sets, and care less about general experience.

A friend of mine got into sysadmining but would much prefer being a developer now. Of course now if he was to try to go back and be a developer he'd have to take a substantial cut in pay. So if you might change your mind later, just be aware of this little trap and plan for it (save up some money, maybe do some side work in some open source projects, etc, just to keep your skills honed).

HOW TO GET HIRED (1)

emars (142040) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553297)

...make friends with somebody in the company and get that person to refer you. It's a tough market right now, and unless you know somebody on the "inside", you'll have a hard time. Even if you were Bill Gates!

There are 2 stages to being hired (3, Informative)

ghostlibrary (450718) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553304)

Unfortunately, there are usually 2 orthogonal stages to being hired. First, your resume has to get past HR (Human Resources). They typically know nothing about the job beyond the half-page writeup.

So if it says "wants 5 yr experience with C", well, if you don't have '5 years experience with C' listed on your resume, you won't get forwarded on. Even if your name is Richie and you list '10 yrs C++' becuas you wanted to focus on recent accomplishments.

It's only after getting past HR (and perhaps a PHB :) that you can actually talk to someone about what is really involved, and sell yourself.

Certs are only useful for the HR stage, but that's a killer cutoff. I've recommended folks for jobs I wrote the spec for, only to have HR bump them because they were missing a buzzword.

Good luck! List everything, be concise :)

certs can be helpful--but don't blow too much $! (4, Interesting)

rjnagle (122374) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553306)

I expect a lot of people will weigh in on certifications, and the arguments for and against are pretty widely known. Here is what I understand:

1)the vendor certifications (Microsoft, Oracle, etc) have some marketability, but the courses and related material are overpriced. So are the predictions of median incomes that certified people enjoy.

2)it is impossible for certifications to measure the ability to program, to think creatively or to solve problems. However, they do measure in a rough way one's familiarity with an application/OS's mechanisms to accomplish tasks.

3)Aside from Microsoft, Oracle and Cisco, employers have usually never heard of
the certification you have.

4) Employers are impressed about certifications when it is hard to measure competence. It is a third-party objective criteria. What impresses them is that you took the initiative, that you had to study for some test. That's different from just sitting at a seminar and passively absorbing information.

5). Despite what people say, "paper certifications" and "paper mills" are not worthless. The problem with IT institutes is that no training program can cover the variety of problems and administrative functions that one encounters on the job. On the other hand, they do a good job of exposing you to some of the basic tasks.

6)The problem with "paper certifications" (especially vendor-sponsored ones) is that to pass them you need to learn skills specific to the application or OS. That puts the onus of chasing after skills (and paying for them) entirely on the job seeker. And surely by the time you pass one certification, you'll hear about another one that is the next best thing. You need to ask yourself, "why I am spending time immersing myself in vendor-specific information when I should be learning more general things: protocols, network architecture and programming theory and algorithms.

7)Certifications do matter in my own field: technical writing and training. They indicate some familiarity with a particular domain of learning.

8)If you seek a certification, seek it only because you find the subject in and of itself to be interesting. I sought the LPI 1 certification [lpi.org] because I needed to know these concepts anyway and the certification provided a structure and path for learning the material. Right now, I am pursuing another certification, the Master CIW Administrator [ciwcertified.com]
certification. I'm not sure employers will even know what this certification is, but I know that the subjects on the certifications: network security, ip6 and unix/windows interoperability are things I would be learning anyway.

9)If you do seek certification, don't spend more than $100 on study material. There are hundreds of sites and forums that provide good study guides and practice tests for free. You'll also enjoy sharing in the learning and studying experience. My favorite is Exam Notes [examnotes.net]

My guess is (1)

Morgahastu (522162) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553308)

you've just graduated and you think you're the king of the world and above everyone else because you have a degree and you're trying to get a job as a Lead Programmer or lead something else. Get a lower job like JUNIOR programmer and make your way up. Its the best way to get your talents noticed. If you only go for the highest paying and highest jobs you'll never get it. Theres millions others who just got a degree this year. Give it up, you're not special because you have a degree. If everyone who had a degree automaticly got a good job there would be about 100 times more good jobs out there. Get your head out of your ass.

Am I crazy or what? I love spam! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553314)


Am I crazy or what? I love spam! [com.com]

In the ancient, pre-Internet days, I used to get all kinds of mail in my U.S. Postal Service mailbox. The mail had stamps on it; later on it had imprinted postmarks of one kind or another. I was in the direct-marketing and mail-order business, so I used my name and address as a quality-control measure, just to see how long the mail would take to actually arrive at my house.

As you can imagine, my name found its way to many different lists of one type or another, and I got lots of mail.

Depending on the perspective of the recipient, it was called "junk mail" or "file 13 candidates," or "recyclable materials." Individual pieces included catalogs of every type and description, magazine and book club offers, resort vacation packages and credit cards. Can you believe it? Offering me, an entrepreneur, a credit card? Had they lost their minds?

And I loved it.

I loved reading the offers; I learned things and I even bought some things. They say the easiest sale is to a salesperson, and maybe that's true. But I was a tough customer. I only bought what I needed, or in some cases what I wanted, because they convinced me with good copy, attractive product art and presentation, and with offers backed by a guarantee. They convinced me I had made a great decision. They were (and still are) reaching out to satisfy my needs as their research indicated.

Now, in addition to my mail at home and at the office, I get e-mails. Lots of e-mails. And for the most part, I love them. They tell me about things I'm interested in, such as services and products that might satisfy some of my needs. They provide information referrals, ideas and food for thought.

And e-mails are smart. They don't require a postcard or envelope with postage to get more information--you just click "reply." Or in many cases, click on the "hot link" direct to the e-mailer's Web site.

Look, here's the deal.

Spam is the "junk mail" of a few years ago. There is still "junk" mail, although I prefer to think of it as marketing mail--searching for new customers and reinvigorating established clients. My spam is important to me. In this new age of the Internet, I need the information and opportunities that e-mail marketing provides. The Internet is a new marketing channel, an information research assistant, and a replacement for some of those mail-order catalogs I used to request. And man, the response time!

The courts and the Federal Trade Commission long ago thrashed out the framework for people taking their name off mailing lists by using the Direct Marketing Association-maintained "opt out" list. Mailers run their list through the DMA and matches are culled for each person from that list.

People don't get what they don't want. But did you know that many of the people on the DMA file have requested catalogs or information by direct mail within a few months of their "opt out?"

Why?

Because we have grown used to getting information this way. If we need to, we can do the same thing using the DMA, or the Internet Advertising Bureau, or another industry trade group.

So, what's the big deal about spam? I think a few well-meaning but uninformed politicians and advocacy groups have decided what's good for us, and in their zeal, they are trying to establish a new and unwarranted benchmark for the marketing channel we call the Internet, and for one of its components: e-mail.

We really have to fight this intrusion. E-mail is no less commercial speech than other forms of communication; e-mail is a new and--in some cases--a better way of quickly identifying, qualifying and servicing customers. Large catalog marketers are pleased with the growing percentage of Internet-driven business, and they use e-mail to offer specials and other information potentially valuable to their customers, at less expense than mail-only contact programs.

Not everybody has an e-mail address or access to the Internet: Approximately 70 million U.S. households have computers, out of 120 million total, but not all of the 70 million have access to the internet or e-mail. Most businesses do have Internet and e-mail. There are some e-mails I get that I don't want or appreciate: pornography, two credit card offers every day (give me a break!), and some others. But you know what I do?

Hit delete.

I hit delete, and I'm free. As for the rest of my spam: Keep it coming!

welcome (2)

geekoid (135745) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553315)

to the new economy.

better then certificates, make contacts. Network.
Go to the user groups in whateer field your interested. Find your local euntrepenuar club, meet people looking to hire someone for there start-up. if nothing else, it will get you experience.

The military is looking for people with IT knowledge. Get in as an officer, after 4 years, you'll be done. It's not really that hard of a career for people with technicall background, plus you might get liucky and get assigned to some Rll [probably make as much as you can in todays civilian market, withno experience.

It sounds to me as if you got into the technicall fiels 4-5 years ago because it was lucrative, but now that you got your degree, the market is crap, and you have no real interest in the technology.
I could be wrong.

Good entry level cert for sysadmins (4, Informative)

.@. (21735) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553324)

SAGE, the Systems Administrators Guild [sage.org] has a junior-to-mid-level professional certification for systems administrators now, called cSAGE [sagecert.org] .

Unlike vendor/product certifications, this cert is designed to assess your ability to perform in an IT role -- namely, systems administrator -- rather than your ability to memorize features and functions of a particular product. It tests troubleshooting skill, background knowledge of process and procedure, and general junior-to-mid-level sysadmin proficiency, both in general and specific to Unix (they're working on a Windows module and several other, higher-level "merit badge" modules).

New Graduate Job Offers. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553330)

With the job market in its current state, we are able to pay those we 5+ years of experiance the same as new graduates, however if a graduate comes along with not only a little practical experiance but also projects they have completed in their own time and other value added skills then we give them at least an interview.

Usually however experiance is more valuable than a dgree in the technology sector until we are looking for management jobs.

job market regulated by recruiters (1)

jimkski (304659) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553331)

I'm not sure that a certification is going to help you. I say that because certifications are not held in high esteem by the people who stand between you and a job. Those people are the recruiters.

Recruiters are one of the grim realities of the evolving job market. Harried IT managers use recruiters because their schedules don't allow for the kind of thorough, enlightened review of resumes that would lead to a bright, yet inexperienced resource being invited for an interview. Recruiters know that they can only submit so many resumes to a manager (usually less than 10) and they want to make sure their chances of getting that 25%-40% of starting salary fee are good. On the flip side, most recruiters know nothing about the "product" they're selling to the hiring managers. So how do they do what they do?

First and foremost, recruiters break out the tried and true acronym filter and run the resume's through it. If the hiring manager says HTML, VB, CICS, JAVA, AIX, MOSIX, and Babbage Engines then the recruiter is going to throw out all resumes but those that satisfy every last one of the requirements.

Second, the recruiter is going to look at experience and sometimes certifications. Project experience, especially full-lifecycle stuff) is critical to getting past the recruiter to the hiring manager. Certifications are nice for people with experience, but if you have none, they're worthless.

I've found that the trick is to be very agressive about tailoring my resume to the job postings I see. I over 10 years industry experience so I generally can dig up enough relevant experience, that when massaged the right way, turn me into an ideal candidate.

Beyond that, you've got to call people. Talking to hiring managers (and I don't know how you get their numbers, you'll have to work on that yourself) is the best way to improve your odds. One in 40 might turn out for you, so prepare yourself for some serious rejection. But stick with it, and as long as the economy doesn't nose dive when Dick Cheney's predicitions of [9/11]^2 come to fruition, you may just find yourself employed.

SPECIALIZE! (1)

fortunatus (445210) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553332)

the more interested you are in a specialty, or a specialized interest (ie, mechanical control, image processing, financial analysis, real time communication, acoustic modeling, etc) the more people know about what you are good at.


if you say, "i'll do anything!" then it sounds like you're not especially good at anything.


also i agree with the comment above, get a job through friends or relatives! the resume/cover letter route is SO HARD, i never got a job that way (which is to say i DID get them through relatives) until i had over 15 years experience. then i got the job i have now from resume submission.

Nothing Beats Experience (1)

Motheius (449386) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553333)

In my career, or lack there of, I have met MANY certified ``professionals'' that were not as good as one would imagine them to be. Out of every 10 certified geeks I have met, 9 who are clueless people that are really good at memorizing facts and can not apply this knowledge.

My biggest complaint about certifications is that they are almost *ALWAYS* based on one's skill at memorizing a situation. This doesn't apply well to the real world where things are HARDLY EVER text book examples. These tests should ALL be practical in application so one could prove that they can not only memorize a fact or two, but that they can actually apply this understanding in a real time situation.

I also think certifications are used by companies like Microsoft to undermine the really qualified people in the workforce. I am currently looking for a job and one of the things I specialize in is WAN Administration. I recently applied for a job taking care of a medium sized WAN but since I wasn't certified, By Microsoft no less, I was turned down.

The problem with experience, a possible solution (1)

Pootenheimer (537919) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553337)

A lot of people have commented about it all being who you know, as well as having some experience under your belt. In my experience, it's a bit of both. I have a BS in CS (working on the MS), and I believe what helped me obtain employment with such a fresh degree was my resume. Not so much the pretty formatting, as the list of previous employments, which was substantial.

If you don't have a lot of previous experience or know the right people, how do you get a job? It's the vicious loop - no experience = no job, but no job = no experience. My recommendation would be this: consider contracting. I started with contracting jobs to help get additional post-graduate experience. The pay is not always the best, but it will get you the experience you need to move on to bigger (and maybe better) employments. If you do a nice enough job showing off your skills as a contractor, some firms will allow you to be hired on permanently, up from your contracting position. It's something to consider.

Certifications of dubious value (1)

rob_from_ca (118788) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553344)

In terms of the real world, certificates relate very little to the skill/knowledge of the person who has them. There are people who are excellent and what they do, and have vendor certifications. There are excellent people without vendor certs. There are frighteningly incompetent people with certs, and there are frighteningly incompetent people without certs. There are also all ranges in between. To boot, in my experience, there really isn't even a useful average quality behind certifications, so selecting a "certified" employee doesn't even increase your chances of getting someone with skill.

In short, there is no correlation that I've found between certs and quality of employees. Sadly, out in the world, some places take them very seriously. Some places they will just be your foot in the door, somce places they will get you the job, and some places won't even look at them; it really just depends. In a perfect world, I wouldn't even work for a place that required them or even took them into account since they are so suspect as a yardstick. Of course, it's the real world, and you have to work to eat.

In the long-winded end, certs typically can't hurt you, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't waste a lot of money or time trying to get them. These days the market is tight, so recruiters tend to not even talk to people who don't match every single requirement for a position, and those often include certs. If you're working with the end employer, you can often talk to the technical person and help him/her see past not having a cert. With an HR person or recruiter who isn't familiar with the subject matter, you'll probably need that cert. YMMV, but if I were doing the hiring, I'd never even mention/look at certifications.

You have experience. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553348)

A meaningless degree or even more meaningless certifications (Any ass with a Dummies book can get an MSCE) will do nothing for you.

You sure the job market in your area just doesn't suck?

I've quite a few friends who are in high paying jobs with little chance of being fired unless their various companies go down. They do not have degrees.

What? How did they score jobs like that? No - it wasn't because of the former dot-com boom. It was because they know their shit. The stuff they mumbled about in their sleep compiled and ran better than most of the things an average professional programmer codes while awake. They're proactive. They see a new technology and jump on it before anyone in the business world even knows it's there. They are totally within the Tao.

Do this, and you will never want for a job.

The question is, are you willing to give up having a 'normal' life now, that you might retire and live a peaceful, relaxing existance twenty years from now?

I sure as hell don't. *snicker* I want to see movies. I want to spend hours at night sitting in a diner drinking coffee and bullshitting with friends. I don't want to single-handedly put Mr. O'Reilly's kids through college.

Plus, I've been raised with the ridiculous idea that a degree means a job. *laugh*

please.... (1)

jeffy124 (453342) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553351)

if you do get some type of cert, please, please, do not be the guy from Dilbert "I summon the vast knowledge of my certifications!" and then says "Gee this is embarrasing. Out of the entire course that's all I can remember" (or something along those lines)

Certificates and the real dice market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3553353)

The easiest way to see the relationship between certificates and jobs is to do
a search on dice [dice.com] with a tech skill and x flavor
of certificate, then compare the same search without x certificate. I get about
1 certificate job listed for every 20 jobs. Certificates do, however; drive up
the prices of training [lordcyber.com] .

The Neverending Certification Quandry... (1)

digitalmuse (147154) | more than 12 years ago | (#3553356)

As pgrote has said, certifications tend to be a cyclical thing and typically promote bandwagon mentality. (And to the 'truly technical', certs are often viewed as 'redundant'). However as someone who has fought for employment solely on the vagaries of my 'experience', it can be hard to get in the door and prove your skills to those 'truely technical' folks without the certs that HR and head-hunters like to flog.
With two years of co-op and a BS CS under your belt, I have to believe that you would not find it a difficult exercise to study up on your own and (as much as I hate to say it...) take a MSCE test or two.
a) you get a plaque(yes, it's analgous to tooth decay) from MS saying that you've got some basic quantitative skills. HR and PHB weenies get off things like this.
b) and if you pick up a certification in something that complements your existing skills you've made yourself even more valuable to a prospective employer.

This is just my take on how things operate in the market I've been working in, but I'd imagine that it's fairly universal in it's mechanics.
If you still find yourself stimied in your job hunt, you might want to seriously examine the posibility of relocating. From your description, I would hazard that coming out of a BS-degree program, you do not have any massive financial responsiblities (ie: mortgage, lease, 2-kids&dog) so this period may afford you flexability to relocate to a market where your skills are in higher demand and the lack of certs will be less likely hamper your job search.
Good luck in this, and keep us posted.
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