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Australian Spammer Sues Back

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the gird-well-your-loins dept.

Spam 416

Vilorman writes: "We've all heard the one about the spammers begin sued. Now, an Ausie spammer is suing back, for being blacklisted. Claiming damages and equipment replacement costs and so on. The whole article is over at Yahoo. So, I guess now, not only are we subjected to the spam, but we can't block it either?"

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416 comments

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First Post (-1)

L0rdkariya (562469) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612344)

The CLIT is strong in this one.

Re:First Post (-1)

Tubcat (561572) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612382)

The CLIT is indeed strong. Well done L0rdkariya. I thought I had it, but shitty slash code got me.

Re:First Post (-1)

L0rdkariya (562469) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612490)

A victory for any CLIT member is shared by all.
But I get Natalie Portman first (you can have the hot grits).

Go CLIT Go! (-1)

egg troll (515396) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612389)

WonderCLIT powers, activate! Shape of a hot grit. Form of a goatse.cx link! ACTIVATE!!

Go Aussie Go! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612346)

First Post! Hahahah!!!

First Post! (-1)

Tubcat (561572) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612348)

Dedicated to Trollaxor, Recipe Troll, and all the other worthwhile posters on this dirty site.

I am Cornholio! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612354)

I need TP for my bung hole!

next, (0)

elite lamer (533654) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612358)

spammers sue their victims for angry replies, claiming emotional damage.

Forget about grammar...How about spell check? (-1, Offtopic)

Geekonomical (461622) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612371)

begin sued. Now, an Ausie spammer

Slashdot english, getting better everytime!

Early Post!!! (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612384)

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Re:Early Post!!! (-1)

stallo (575157) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612480)

dude, your link is broken, FIX IT!!!

Re:Early Post!!! (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612505)

Is this better? [yahoo.com]

Re:Early Post!!! (-1)

L0rdkariya (562469) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612529)

MOD PARENT UP !! That has got to be the sexiest picture of Angelina Jolie I've ever seen.

Re:Early Post!!! (-1)

stallo (575157) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612608)

much better thank you. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

not so crazy? (-1, Flamebait)

tps12 (105590) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612387)

As an IT professional in a business whose lifeblood depends on amassing lists of valid email addresses, I can only say that I support such measures.

If hackers are going to damage equipment and waste people's time, then they are violating poeple's rights, and need to pay the price.

Re:not so crazy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612440)

RTFA

They are suing because they had to get new servers and internet connections because a blacklist site posted their IP so thousands of people could block their spam. They are suing because to get around people blocking them, they had to get new IP addresses.

Re:not so crazy? (2, Insightful)

Caradoc (15903) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612443)

An IT professional whose lifeblood depends on amassing lists of valid e-mail addresses?

That makes you, what? A spammer? Or a marketer?

It doesn't make you a "professional," in my book.

Re:not so crazy? (1)

JeanBaptiste (537955) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612484)

I noticed you did not mention the type of business you are in. I would not and will not jump to the conclusion that you are one of the evil spammers... but you could see how one could reach that conclusion, no? What does your company do?

I can certainly make the argument that spammers waste people's time in a BIG way, I don't know if spam can damage equipment but all the extra traffic isn't helping anything. According to you, this pretty much constitutes a violation of rights (I dont know how you came up with that one), so I think spammers need to pay the price
Even if you are an evil spammer, I don't think its ethically wrong (if you can make a legal buck, more power to you), but you can't expect the world to sit back and take it either. Becaust they (we) wont.

Re:not so crazy? (5, Insightful)

TheTrunkDr. (516695) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612501)

Well I hope to god this is intentional flamebait. Being blacklisted causes no damage to any equipment, most of what these guys are after is rediculous.

$7,907 (AU$14,000) for replacing blocked or compromised IP numbers, $2,683 (AU$4,750) for labor costs of technicians to establish an alternative e-mail system, $2,824 (AU$5,000) to purchase a new server computer and $11,296 (AU$20,000) for loss of income it claims to have incurred over a 20-day waiting period

hmm last I knew it didn't cost $8k to get a new ip?!?! technicians?!? for what changing an ip on a server, nevermind about buying a new server, and if their isp takes 20 days to issue a new ip, they should be sueing their isp! I've worked at a company that got blackballed for relaying mail way back when spammers just started bouncing mail around, once we discovered the problem it was literally, turn off relaying - 5 minutes(max), get new ip from isp - one phone call (about 10 minutes), reassign ip and reboot server - 10 minutes. This is a ton of horsecrap, nevermind the fact that they're stealling people's bandwidth for sending unsolicited unwanted e-mail, I pay for it and get your crap off of it!!

Jacktard... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612524)

The "damages" were limited to him not being able to send SPAM to people who didn't want to see his SPAM, or they wouldn't be subscribing to the blacklist service in the first place. Such services are "opt-in".

Your idiot cousin wants to sue people for opt-in of a list that includes him.

The "need to replace the ``compromized'' IP addresses comes from his use of those IP addresses to send SPAM.

If he sends it to people who don't want it, then it's perfectly reasonable for him to expect his IP adresses will be listed in a "people we don't want to hear from".

If I had a neighbor who, every time anone let him into my house, he peed on the floor of my dining room, I'd think that him suing me for telling people about this fact, and them keeping him out of their dining rooms as a result, would not be a bad thing.

Crazy TROLL! (2)

Dr Caleb (121505) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612781)

The exact same comment was posted in the story on Opt-Out decision in the EU story.

Boy, did he get you guys!

Re:Australian Spammer Sues Back (1)

rmohr02 (208447) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612388)

Ok, find the email address of the Judge and of his staff and get it on every spamlist you know of. Ditto once we know who the jurors are.

Re:Australian Spammer Sues Back (1)

Heraklit (29346) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612525)

Good joke, won't work. Firstly, the judge possibly has no email address. (Yes, there are still some old-fashioned people around, even now.) Secondly, it might keep him and his staff from working, just imagine he wants to decide against the spammer anyhow... (Finally, annoying people is not really productive, but all you know that. :-)

Re:Australian Spammer Sues Back (1)

rmohr02 (208447) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612559)

Secondly, it might keep him and his staff from working
Well, he'd learn to get his gov't ISP to subscribe to blackmail lists, thus proving who should win the case.

Re:Australian Spammer Sues Back (2)

TekPolitik (147802) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612572)

Ok, find the email address of the Judge and of his staff and get it on every spamlist you know of. Ditto once we know who the jurors are.

OK, even assuming the latter were possible, it is extremely rare in Australia for a civil trial to involve a jury - usually the parties are content to have it decided by a judge sitting alone

One perspective (1)

WinkyN (263806) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612393)

Spammers are the only reason the death penalty has a place in our judicial system.

Re:One perspective (2, Flamebait)

dattaway (3088) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612560)

The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment for the victim. If spammers are put to sleep, we will see no justice.

Why don't we lock the convicted spammers in a padded room with a television set to display an endless stream of infomercials, commercials, and religious programming with no way to turn it off? Better yet, we can have a pay-per-view 24/7 webcam focused on the spammer shackled to the wall that is subjected to this treatment. The webcam page can have pushbutton forms to impliment things such as water-drip torchure, the pneumatic ram punching glove hit him in the stomach gag, release one starved and abused lab rat, and other inventive buttons...

I think spammers should be kept alive for humanitarian reasons such as these. They would benefit the world with stress research and the mentioned entertainment possibilities.

equipment replacement? (2, Insightful)

jeffy124 (453342) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612400)

how the heck does replacing equipment that factor in? I can understand where they're coming from in terms of damages, but replacing equipment? Isnt it just a configuration flag or something in the mail relay?

Re:equipment replacement? (4, Informative)

Winged Cat (101773) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612562)

Apparently, the IP addresses counted as "equipment" that had to be replaced, not to mention the email system. <shakes head>

T3 is seeking loss and damages of $7,907 (AU$14,000) for replacing blocked or compromised IP numbers, $2,683 (AU$4,750) for labor costs of technicians to establish an alternative e-mail system, $2,824 (AU$5,000) to purchase a new server computer and $11,296 (AU$20,000) for loss of income it claims to have incurred over a 20-day waiting period for a new Internet connection to be installed.

None of which was necessary. Change business models so as *not* to spam, which was the action requested (and quite probably spelled out in email to the spammer at one point), and none of that moeny would have had to be spent (unless "closing open relays and no longer spamming" counts as "establishing an alternative email system", but that's still brought upon self).

Jeremy Malcolm, an independent Perth-based solicitor who specializes in IT law and is representing McNichol [the defendant], said he wouldn't be putting in a defense straight away and would be applying for a summary judgment in the hopes of not having to go to trial.

Damn straight!

Malcolm described the statement of claim against his client as a ?fairly weak claim?brought about to intimidate a critic of T3 Direct.?

Isn't that the definition of a SLAPP suit in the States?

Re:equipment replacement? (2)

Roadmaster (96317) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612625)

you understand better than you think. Meaning, right, there's absolutely NO DAMN NEED to replace said equipment. It's obvious that this lawsuit is frivolous, an attempt from the spammer to annoy and harass the spamee or the guys who keep the spammer list into not messing with him. (either that, or the spammer's tech guy said all that stuff was needed and is just ripping off the spammer).

Personally I think that kind of behavior merits physical violence, but that's just me. :)

In other news... (3, Interesting)

Bonker (243350) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612408)

...A robber once successfully sued a homeowner because he fell out of a window and broke his leg while escaping after a heist.

This is bullshit. Spam is theft. Spammers steal the use of bandwidth, machine use, and disk space from ISPs and users. Any court who even thinks twice about letting this go to trial will be so caught up in legal technicalities that it won't hear *any* trial fairly.

Re:In other news... (2)

1010011010 (53039) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612475)

The lesson from that trial, of course, is "dead men tell no tales." Also, "if they fall out, drag them back in before calling the cops."

Re:In other news... (2)

The Wing Lover (106357) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612503)

...A robber once successfully sued a homeowner because he fell out of a window and broke his leg while escaping after a heist.

Citation, please. If you can't provide one, I'm going to have to agree with Snopes [snopes2.com] in that it's likely an urban legend.

Re:In other news... (1)

Bonker (243350) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612558)

Like I said, 'This is bullshit'. It is an urban legend, but I used it to demonstrate how ridiculous the Spamhaus' complaints are.

Re:In other news... (2, Interesting)

ChristTrekker (91442) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612521)

Yup. If you have to defend your home with force, you're better off killing an intruder than wounding him. And if he makes it outside onto the lawn before expiring, drag him back inside just to be sure his family can't sue you for killing an innocent passer-by. *sigh* Mighty sad commentary on our screwed-up legal system.

On the other hand, this guy is innocent until proven guilty, and deserves his day in court. Is there a clause in the law that says it's your own fault if you are injured (however injury is defined in the particular situation) during commission of a crime? There should be. It could be called the "Personal Responsibility Act".

Re:In other news... (2)

Ooblek (544753) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612632)

So this makes me think of some low-life, sitting in a basement in front of a computer. He presses the send key, and suddenly jumps up and repeatedly screams, "Eat it bitch! Eat it all up! Hormel never tasted this good!" at the computer screen.

Spammers and those amateur pornography guys behind the camera....I can't figure out which one is sleazier.

Did Bernard Shifman move? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612412)

He was in Chicago last time, wasn't he?

Guilt (1)

EricBoyd (532608) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612413)

Even spammers should be innocent until proven guilty. That's only fair, after all.

Websurfing done right! StumbleUpon [stumbleupon.com]

Re: US-centric viewpoint (1)

Ashurbanipal (578639) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612568)

What you are postulating as a universal principle is actually a specific feature of the American judicial system.

For example, in France, once charges are brought against you, you will be assumed guilty until you can prove your innocence. This system works fine for the French, and indeed it seems that a fair and evenhanded application of justice can proceed from either premise, if the rest of the rules are structured appropriately. (Slashdot frog-bashing will now once again begin.)

"Fairness" is served when the outcome of legal proceedings reflects justice tempered by an appropriate smidgen of mercy. The starting presupposition does not necessarily predicate the outcome, if the system works.

Re: US-centric viewpoint (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612759)

For example, in France, once charges are brought against you, you will be assumed guilty until you can prove your innocence. This system works fine for the French,

I used to live in France, the system works because they are all guilty of something...

Britain originally founded its colonies in the Americas and Australia to get rid of undesirables. The priorities of the age are shown by the fact that the task of ridding Britain of the puritans was considered more urgent than the task of transporting criminals. That these priorities were correct can be demonstrated by considering the relative social merrits of Gerry Falwell and Kylie Minogue.

Re:Guilt (2, Informative)

Software (179033) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612570)

First of all, it's presumed innocent, not innocent. Second, the concept of innocence has no place in a civil trial. The decision is based upon the preponderance (50.1%) of the evidence. IANAL, but I took a business law class.

What is the prick's contact information? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612414)

Email?
Web Site/URL/URI?
Fax Number?
Phone Number?
Address?

Let's make his life hell. Hehehheheh

Re:What is the prick's contact information? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612773)

karma whore BUT good link! (-1)

n3r0.m4dski11z (447312) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612418)

here is a page [rts.com.au] that lists the email addys and contact info of t3direct [t3direct.com.au] . i foudn it in a google search but if you want to flame them then use those addresses.

looks like many ppl are pissed at these spammers. die spammer die.

What exactly is new here? (2)

Beryllium Sphere(tm) (193358) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612419)

The article, and quotes in the article, both call the case a "first".

Didn't ORBS get sued?

Re:What exactly is new here? (3, Informative)

Diabolical (2110) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612500)

This lawsuit is against a end user. Not a anti spam list or anything like it. This was a user complainig over spam to an organisation like ORBS. This resulted in a shutdown (whether it's the end users fault or not isn't known) of the spammer...

Well... i would like to see a trial like this over here.. hell... i even volunteer in such a case to be the end user....

procmail users beware! (0)

Anonymous Cowrad (571322) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612422)

So, is filtering spam to /dev/null along the same lines?

This company doesn't have a snowball's chance because we have a fair and reasonable judicial system.

Right?

Spam stoppers are required (3, Insightful)

HerrGlock (141750) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612428)

I do not care if you have a business, there are too many ways for you to advertise already, you do not have to require the entire world to listen to your sales pitch.

The RBL and similar are volunteer organizations, there is no requirement for them to be used by anyone or any company. This is not even an issue because people are only securing their own networks from overloaded mail traffic. If this gentleman wants to solicit, it would be better to start a page for the company and then go looking for handshakes to put his banner on other pages, if he uses that, then people expect to get ads. Forcing his way into your personal mailbox is not a right in any country that I'm aware of.

DanH

Re:Spam stoppers are required (2, Informative)

Caradoc (15903) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612470)

The RBL, to the best of my knowledge, is not now a "volunteer" organization since they went to a subscription model in order to use their lists.

SPEWS, on the other hand, seems to be a volunteer organization. If anyone knew who operated it, I'd go ask them about it. But they don't ask for money, and they've been incredibly successful in getting spammers to whine a lot about their e-mail getting rejected.

Re:Spam stoppers are required (1)

Analog Squirrel (547794) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612683)

> Forcing his way into your personal mailbox is not a right in any country that I'm aware of.

If we go back to the snail mail analogy, it is perfectly acceptable(in the US, anyway) to send out mass mailings. I've thrown away many pieces of junkmail addressed to "occupant". Even worse, a lot of credit card companies seem to think I need a brand new(preapproved!) credit card. I'm a college student, so it isn't as if I'm not in enough debt already... :-( One might argue that the companies sending these out are abusing the postal service beyond what the postage stamp pays for(exactly the same arguement people use to say that spammers use up to much bandwith, network resources, etc).


In any case, most of this stuff all goes into the recycling can. The thing with email is that it is even easier! How hard is it to push the delete key?


I should say I'm not at all in favor of spammers. I find them as irritating as the next person; I fully agree with you that setting up banners on "friendly" web pages is a much better way to go. However, I get tired of people complaining about something in cyberspace that happens all the time out in the "real" world. If junk papermail(which can easily be thrown out) isn't illegal, why should the electonic equivalent be illegal?

Re:Spam stoppers are required (1)

Caradoc (15903) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612725)

Because you're not paying to receive the junk mail. When someone sends a spam, it arrives on my mail server through my pipe, and costs me bandwidth.

Junk faxes are illegal for this very reason.

Re:Spam stoppers are required (1)

westies-from-hell (533039) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612755)

While I believe that most spammers should be burned at the stake, the RBL and other "volunteer" blacklist agencies can prove to be as troublesome as the spammers themselves. We recently moved our mail server from a poorly-designed product to a sendmail-based server, yet we're still having mail rejected from some external sites because of our previous server's "open-relay" problems. Even though we have been clean and sober for three months plus, we are still have mail rejected by sites using RBL, Osirusoft, and others.

These so-called "volunteer" agencies lean a bit too much to the extreme, and it is frequently difficult to clear your name from their lists, or the problems that some sites create because they have very outdated lists. As such, we have chosen not to use the RBL for that very reason; many of our clients and their domains might be on those lists unwittingly just because their ISP's don't have enough sense to keep their system from being a spammer haven.

But I digress....

Two spammers walk into a bar... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612434)

We've all heard the one about the spammers begin sued.

I never heard that one. How does it go?

Open Source Mailer (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612438)

I would be more sympathetic to his case, had only he used an Open Source Mass Mailer. He should realize that the untapped potential of the Open Source community is enormous. Why, the vast number of multi-talented developers available would make any organization happy.

I hope he gets what he deserves.

Please don't feed trolls. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612555)

... or they'll pollute your pool even more.

Re:Please don't feed trolls. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612726)

How did I troll, sir? I was not actively inviting feedback from the /. users, but simply stating my opinion.

Please be more considerate next time.

Re:Please don't feed trolls. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612760)

Like you are, you moron.

Why does everyone hate spammers so much? (-1)

CmderTaco (533794) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612445)

I send out thousands of pieces of spam daily (partially from email addresses I pull from slashdot), and everyone seems to like me!!!

This guy is already losing points in my book. (3, Insightful)

datastew (529152) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612447)

T3 is seeking loss and damages of $7,907 (AU$14,000) for replacing blocked or compromised IP numbers, $2,683 (AU$4,750) for labor costs of technicians to establish an alternative e-mail system, $2,824 (AU$5,000) to purchase a new server computer and $11,296 (AU$20,000) for loss of income. . .

He needs a new server? Maybe so he can run more effective anti-spam filter programs.

Seems to me that he is relying on the judge not being too technologically savvy.

This article isn't even consistant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612448)

The headline paragraph states: "...in what is believed to be a first of its kind case worldwide.."

The third paragraph after that starts: "Because other blacklisted sites have been sued and shut down..."

So which is it?

Re:This article isn't even consistant (1)

cburley (105664) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612724)

The headline paragraph states: "...in what is believed to be a first of its kind case worldwide.."

The third paragraph after that starts: "Because other blacklisted sites have been sued and shut down..."

So which is it?

Both. The headline paragraph is talking about a case in which the owner of a blacklisted site is suing those who put it on their list. (I don't know that this is really the first case of its kind worldwide, since I seem to recall hearing about a similar attempt at litigating against a "spam blacklist maintenance site" in the past, but anyway....)

The third paragraph after that talks about other sites that have themselves been blacklisted having been sued and shut down. (Again, I don't have much personal knowledge about these.)

In other words, the third paragraph talks about spammers, who happened to be listed on anti-spam sites as being spammers, being sued and shut down, while the first paragraph (and the whole story) is about an alleged spammer suing one of these anti-spam sites for listing him.

It's primarily a question of free speech and the importance of allowing market mechanisms to flourish. Can one party (say, a spammer) sue another party (say, an anti-spam blacklisting service) for damages because his business took a hit, when all that the latter party did was make claims (say, not provably untrue) regarding the first party's business practices, claims that have no direct effect on the first party other than to, e.g., allow other parties to decide whether to accept arbitrary amounts of incoming email sent by the first party?

The answer would seem to be: obviously NOT. Even aside from free-speech issues, if the anti-spam site has to pay damages to a spammer for listing him, on the theory that it cost the spammer time and money to "route around" the effects of the listing, then it stands to reason that the spammer should have to pay damages to the anti-spam site for having to spend time and money dealing with the case, the court, and the court's decision, as well as to compensate the anti-spam lister for the reduced utility of his business as a result of having to yank a known spammer's IP addresses off of his site, which reduces his site's value in the marketplace.

In summary, this is basically along the lines of a telemarketer named "Foobar Foods" suing someone for telling all his friends to not bother talking to anyone calling from "Foobar Foods" because they're just telemarketers, on the basis that, having "poisoned the well" for the name "Foobar Foods", the telemarketer had to change their name to "Guileless Grub", at a significant cost.

Such legal intimidation is practiced only by those who don't believe in the concept of the free marketplace, even if they do believe they, themselves, should be granted special privileges in a marketplace strictly regulated by the government (the "purveyor" of the legal system they use to intimidate others).

Oh, get a grip. (4, Interesting)

The Wing Lover (106357) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612451)

So, I guess now, not only are we subjected to the spam, but we can't block it either?

People sue for things all the time. It doesn't mean that the case has any merit whatsoever.

should have known about the blacklists (3, Interesting)

bberg (516819) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612457)

I'm always telling my employer that if he isn't carefull we will get blacklisted, sense we are ridding a "grey line" with our mailings. I'm just waiting for the day I can tell him "I told you so". Now that he purchased an email farming program I be that day will come sooner than later.

Re:should have known about the blacklists (4, Funny)

alizard (107678) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612810)

So have you sent resumes out yet?

Not everyone hate spam... (2, Funny)

PissingInTheWind (573929) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612458)

Look at this:

Why I love spam [com.com]

Damn, I think I'd punch that guy in the face.

Re:Not everyone hate spam... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612518)

Not much of a surprise though, the guy works for an Internet marketing (aka spam) agency...

Sure, he loves it, was, Not everyone hate spam... (1)

Caradoc (15903) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612538)

That's why his e-mail address isn't included in the article - the e-mail address in the header is for the "letters to the editor" address.

Re:Not everyone hate spam... (2, Redundant)

quantaman (517394) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612645)

I agree with your conclusion on the article

Hit delete.

I hit delete, and I'm free. As for the rest of my spam: Keep it coming!


he forgot a few steps though
Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete... Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete ,Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete, Hit delete....

Either way this guy is missing the point entirely, we hate spam because we didn't ask for it if he likes spam he can ask for himself to be put on mailing lists. Not only then will the not get the porno and 2 credit card offers a day he doesn't like but he would get more things that suit him because he requested things material like that. New laws like the one the EU is proposing would work only to his benefit. This is just one uninformed opinion contrasted against mine and the vast majority of other /.ers uninformed opinions. And I think we're winning:)

Don't support censorware! (0, Troll)

Anomolous Cow Herd (457746) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612460)

Ok, so maybe the company that is suing isn't the greatest example of someone expressing free speech, but systems like SPEWS (which is implicated in the article) and especially MAPS are responsible for furthering the political aims of the administrators of the system just as much as they are for blocking legitimate spam.

I think SPEWS deserves this lawsuit. Even though they are a real marketing company, they can set a precedent that allows individuals who really were censored by these flawed anti-spam solutions to air their grievances in a court of law. Bravo, T3 Marketing.

Re:Don't support censorware! (2, Insightful)

redcup (441955) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612669)

Too bad you didn't bother to read the SPEWS site - if you did you would know they don't sensor anything. I quote (emphasis added):

"We do not control the network traffic on anyone else's servers; therefore, we are not the ones rejecting your email, the mailserver you attempted to send email to generated the bounce. We simply provide a public list of ranges of Internet space (IP addresses) which we do not wish to exchange traffic with. Other networks may choose to filter traffic on their systems using our list. SPEWS never touches any email (or other data packets) between your network and someone else's network. Any email bouncing or packet blocking that takes place occurs at the receiving system."

That is like me saying "I don't like to talk to Bill Gates", and someone thinks my opinion on who I like to talk to matters a whole lot, so they decide not to talk to anyone I don't talk to. As a result, they don't talk to Bill Gates either. And how am I liable? Why don't you post your e-mail address with your post and then see how you feel about "censorware" after your mailbox is full of penis enlargement offers.

Free speech (5, Insightful)

jdavidb (449077) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612472)

I'm usually an extreme free speech advocate. I've even been known to argue for the right to yell fire in a crowded theater. That said, free speech gives you the right to speak, not the right to force someone to hear you, and certainly not the right to force someone else to bear the cost of publication. The newspaper editor doesn't have to pay to publish your letter, Rob Malda and andover.net don't have to pay to let you post your comment, and I don't have to pay to download your spam. And free speech also means the other guy has a right to say, "Don't listen to this guy; he's a knucklehead." (or "don't accept IP traffic from this host, it's a spammer")

Re:Free speech (5, Informative)

Caradoc (15903) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612512)

Bingo. Your "right" to send e-mail ends at my MX. I'm under no obligation to accept incoming e-mail at all.

Spam isn't a "free speech" issue. It's a "theft of resources" issue according to CompuServe vs. Cyber Promotions, wherein the judge decided that spamming was indeed "actionable trespass of chattel."

Re:Free speech (1)

PD (9577) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612718)

You CAN yell fire in a crowded theater. That phrase comes from a dissenting opinion by Justice Holmes.

Re:Free speech (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612778)

I'm usually an extreme free speech advocate.

Reading what you just said, I sincerely doubt it.

To paraphrase Ben Franklin, he that would give up essential liberties in exchange for a spam-free mailbox deserves neither.

Ben Hur ? (2)

bigmouth_strikes (224629) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612476)

"it could end up bigger than Ben Hur."

Yeah, if you can get sued just for claiming that a well-known spammer is spammer, this will be a blockbuster in courthouses over the world...

I can already see the next generation of spam... "Make $$$$$$$$ free!!!! Sue anti-spammers!!!! "

Re:Ben Hur ? (2)

Winged Cat (101773) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612603)

I can already see the next generation of spam... "Make $$$$$$$$ free!!!! Sue anti-spammers!!!! "

Or, if this case gets tossed out and anti-spam laws go into effect...

"Make $$$$$$$$ free!!!! Sue spammers!!!! (But not us, please.)"

That's quite a bit of income. (2, Insightful)

wraithgar (317805) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612487)

If that estimate they gave for "loss of income" for 20 days is justifiable (which of course, it may not be), it is likely that SPAM is NEVER going away.
Not if you can recur the cost for a good SPAM server w/in the first week of operations.

However, those numbers are probably bloated, and this is all speculation. But still, the fact that they can *still* make money off of SPAM indicates a greater problem than just the inconvenience of unwanted mail in your mailbox. It means lots of people are paying attention, and spending money, and supporting the whole system.

Case Record Web Site (5, Informative)

TekPolitik (147802) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612507)

The official web site of the defence is at http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/ [ilaw.com.au] (Mirror [perth.hm] ). There are also plans to set up a defence fund [perth.hm] .

Doesn't make much sense (1)

mjstrom (244211) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612511)

How can they sue for being blacklisted? Sure, they had damanges - loss of business, etc. But that's like a telemarketer sueing for you not listening to their sales pitch. Or saying that it is stealing to watch tv without watching the comercials...

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Sounds familiar (1)

bryhhh (317224) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612517)

Perhaps they read about Bernard Shifman [petemoss.com]

huh? (1)

AdTropis (6690) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612533)

what's next? suing irc networks if you get banned from your favorite channel?

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612585)

Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
Free pr0n http://pronhut.com
*Spammer has been kicked from #channel by OpGuy (Spam somewhere else)
*Spammer has join #channel
I r sooing j00 n0vv!

Re:huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612644)

Oops, stupid html...
each of those lines was supposed to start with
Spammer

Personally, I don't think the spammer will win (2)

Kiwi (5214) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612543)

Personally, I don't think the sapmmer will win this one. There is case history [epic.org] saying that an ISP has every right to filter out spam they do not want.

Now, this is a case that happened in the US instead of Austrailia, so it may not be able to be cited in this particular law suit, but it shows that courts do not feel that spammer have a God-given right to send their mail to anyone and everyone they want to.

- Sam

Re:Personally, I don't think the spammer will win (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612747)

Dang, I apologize Sam - I did not plan to mod this down somehow I clicked on the wrong option... :-(

Killer sues government for lost income (2)

jukal (523582) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612544)

A programmer with $8 000 monthly salary killed a spammer, resulting in a 50 year penalty.

Penalized programmer seeks compensation for $4 800 000 lost income (programmer has so vague understanding of money, that he forgets that this does not represent the correct value after 50 years ;)

So, how actually does this differ from this spammer's case?

I like your hypothetical better. (1)

PhxBlue (562201) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612734)

At least in your scenario, there's one less spammer in the world.

This is such a joke (3, Interesting)

pogle (71293) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612547)

If they're losing ~$10,000USD in 20 days, can they even afford the legal fees for long? Is it worth it for them, if they are that low profit, to invest thousands and thousands of dollars into lawyers for a court battle?

Think about it all you American /.ers...we could each send them a dollar to recoup their 'losses'.... just make sure you write something nasty about spammers on the bill.

Or we could send the bill to the guy being sued to use in his defense...we'd bury T3 Direct's legal fund in a day ;-)

Or...I could buy a soda. Mmmm...caffeine...

The spammers have the upper hand (1)

L. VeGas (580015) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612578)

As a twisted analogy, Las Vegas has a "blackbook" that effectively bars suspected individuals from casinos. These individuals are not actually tried in a court of law, but instead barred based on the decisions of the Nevada State Gaming Commission, a regulatory agency. Some barred individuals have sued the Gaming Commission (which has the Nevada judicial system in its pocket), but have lost every time.

okay, bear with me..

suspected cheater / mobster = accused spammer
gaming industry = IT community
barred from casino = blocked addresses

Follow the money. The Gaming Commission wins every time because the casinos bring the money to Vegas. Until the anti-spam movement can demonstrate a concrete reason that they are promoting business instead of hindering it (as many politicians believe), they are fighting an uphill battle.

same as a boycott (1)

Pretzalzz (577309) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612621)

How is blacklisting an IP that you believe to be a spammer and organizing other people to block the IP any different from organizing a boycott of a 'real-life' business? Last I checked you don't need a legitimate reason to boycott someone, you just need to convince other people to agree with you and support the boycott. Noone would suggest that boycotts are in some way illegal.

Calling someone a spammer doesn't seem like it could be libelous since the term itself is subjective. Sure there are some extremes that most people agree constitute spam, but I have seen people get mail which I would consider spam, but the consider it perfectly legitimate e-mail which they read from beginning to end.

WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3612635)

"Claiming damages and equipment replacement costs and so on."

Uh, what did the spam server burn up because it could not spit its vile content on to the net so it choked to death on its own bile?

Ah I see, its just because they had to change IP addresses. That's like a pediophile who wants to sue the state because his address got published to warn parents of the danger in the neighborhood. In other words, if you have to move because you've ruined your relationship with your neighbor, how is it their fault?

Hmmm, that brings me to another thought, whats worse. A pediophile or a spammer.... I'll have to say the pediophile, but damn that spammer comes close. ;P

Precident (3, Interesting)

gnovos (447128) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612642)

What kind of precident will it set if he wins? Well, very simply, it will open the doors for DDoS kiddies to get away with thier attacks quite legally (in Austrailia at least) simply by making sure each ping packet that goes out contains an ad for a get rich quick scheme... This is some bad, bad stuff.

Re:Precident (1)

redcup (441955) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612758)

Screw precedent - after spews.org is /.ed all the SPAM will get through anyway!! He just has to keep SPEWS in the news that matters for nerds...

(or have Katz review the site) shudder

The next step (1)

golrien (528571) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612665)

So, could I be sued for ignoring spam? It's just another type of blocking, and think of the costs he'd need to wipe all memory of his previous spamming from my brain. As it happens I get no spam, as I've always been careful with my email address... is that also a felony? The costs he's lost not being able to sell me products because I hid my address from him.. maybe I should get a solicitor. Or a soda. Mmm, caffeine...

IP's not hard coded! FRAUD! (2, Insightful)

CHUD-Wretch (578617) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612680)


"T3 is seeking loss and damages of $7,907 (AU$14,000) for replacing blocked or compromised IP numbers, $2,683 (AU$4,750) for labor costs of technicians to establish an alternative e-mail system, $2,824 (AU$5,000) to purchase a new server computer


So because his IP was being blocked he HAD to get a new $2800 server? IP's are NOT hardcoded into the box (MAC addresses in the NIC's are) Does he relly think that little addition is going to go unnoticed?


and $11,296 (AU$20,000) for loss of income it claims to have incurred over a 20-day waiting period for a new Internet connection to be installed"


So this guy makes $564 a day with this shit?!
Maybe you really can get rich quick (in court, of course)...

Making Mistakes. (2, Insightful)

lionchild (581331) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612713)

What if this weren't about spam email, but about a mechanic who worked on someones car? If your mechanic mis-diagnoses your car, puts in the wrong part, and causes more damage than when he started, do you expect him to fix it all, and fix it right? And if he doesn't, you have to take it to someone else, do you have a valid case to make the first mechanic pay the bill?

Of course it all hinges on the fact that the first mechanic -did- make a mistake. If not, then you're out the cost of the lawyer too.

ya-who? (1)

bryhhh (317224) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612742)

It seems a little ironic that yahoo who are hosting this story, feature rather a lot in my spam filter rules.

Countersue (2, Funny)

HaeMaker (221642) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612748)

I think this guy should counter-sue. Now that news of this suit has reached /., his site is now unreachable. Thus creating a DDoS.

This DDoS was created as a direct result of the lawsuit being filed.

Humor me and tell me lies (die spammers, die!) (1)

janda (572221) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612786)

WTF? In case this guy has forgetten, I own my computers. I own my pipes (well, lease, but...). I own my network. If I decide to filter all FTP traffic at my external firewall because I don't have a public FTP server, why does he think he can force me to put one in?

Likewise, if I decide to reject any mail that isn't reverse-dnsable, who is he to try and tell me how to run my system?

Similarly, if I decide to reject any mail that server "x" (where "x" is not in my domain), who is he to try and tell me how to run my system?

One thing's for sure. As part of discovery, all his addresses and such are going to come out, I have the suspicion that they are going to get added into the "click this button to unsubscribe from our spam" lists very quickly.

Mailserver are private (3, Insightful)

Erik Hensema (12898) | more than 12 years ago | (#3612798)

Mailservers are private. Nobody can force me to receive anybody's mail. I can block whoever I want using whatever method I like. If I want to block connections using some blacklist, that's MY choice. The blacklist only offers me advice on what connection to accept or not. I can freely choose to follow that advice or not.

In short: sue whoever you like. You'll loose.

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