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Lawrence Livermore Lab On The Chopping Block?

chrisd posted more than 12 years ago | from the he-threated-me-in-the-real-world dept.

Science 394

guttentag writes "According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Bush's Homeland Security plan calls for transferring $1.2 billion of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's $1.5 billion budget to a new Department of Homeland Security under Tom Ridge. However, the plan transfers only 4 percent of the lab's employees. Ridge's explanation of the numbers: "I cannot give you the kind of explanation you need to deal with that imbalance." LLNL funded and houses the ASCI White supercomputer, among other cool projects." While Livermore has an impressive research record, we would miss most the laser lab from Tron.

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394 comments

FP (-1, Offtopic)

syc (584762) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682084)

gentlemen! shit in my mouth

A FINE FIRST POST. I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER (-1)

Subject Line Troll (581198) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682114)


i wish 2 lern 2 haq plz email meh (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682227)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=HACKING+I P+ADDRESS+ON+TEH+AOL&spell=1

taht din;t; helpo me

Claimed! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682229)

I claim this motherfucking first post of goodness on behalf of ACs worldwide!
Suck it down CLIT!!!

Proclamation. (-1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682259)

I hereby proclaim all those who 'claim' fp's without actually getting the FP, PUSSY FAGGOT BITCHES! Yeah, clit, that goes for you too.

Man, If /, wasn't so fucking slow... (-1)

Pr0n K1ng (160688) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682087)

This would have been a first post!

Get it in you!

Re:Man, If /, wasn't so fucking slow... (-1, Offtopic)

syc (584762) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682102)

you fuckin dipshit

Tool (-1)

Pr0n K1ng (160688) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682234)

nt

HEAR YE!! HEAR YE!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682295)

SYC DECLARED 'HOMO' BY ALL! HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

-towncrier
ps - the caps mean i'm yellin.
aw shit you are teh seux.

Misprint (5, Informative)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682103)

Cancel the flames. Tom Ridge says it is probably a misprint.

Re:Misprint (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682158)

Link?

Re:Misprint (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682163)

In the story.

Re:Misprint (1)

SpamJunkie (557825) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682217)

Perhaps an all to convenient misprint?

Re:Misprint (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682289)

Perhaps an all to convenient misprint?

Or, just maybe, it's an all too convienient misprint?

---
Just curious, How many posters to Slashdot graduated from English 101?

Re:Misprint (1, Troll)

ftobin (48814) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682347)

Just curious, How many posters to Slashdot graduated from English 101?

Why bother, when f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng.

Re:Misprint (1)

jralls (537436) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682240)

Probable indeed. Most of what LLNL (and its sister lab LBL) does is nuclear weapons research -- and that includes the NIF project mentioned elsewhere. Neither appropriate for the Homeland Defense folks (they couldn't get a clearance for that anyway) nor likely to be cut in the current administration.

Lone Gunmen at MTV pull a chrisd (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682269)

chrisd [slashdot.org]

Re:Misprint (1)

ZeLonewolf (197271) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682357)

Must be some of that fuzzy math...

partisan (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682106)

much ado about nothing. a fairly minor mistake in the most complex reorganization of the us gov't since the truman administration. it's been seized upon and made front page news (particularly on the Left Coast) to make the Bush administration seem inept and disorganized.

Re:partisan (1, Flamebait)

Overfiend (35917) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682251)

it's been seized upon and made front page news (particularly on the Left Coast) to make the Bush administration seem inept and disorganized.

Oh, I don't think the Bush administration needs any help in that department, especially since they're already receiving so much from Jerry Falwell and other cross-burning conservatives who use phrases like "Left Coast".

Re: partisan (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682341)


> especially since they're already receiving so much from Jerry Falwell and other cross-burning conservatives who use phrases like "Left Coast".

How funny. "Left Coast" was pot-smoking-hippie jargon for "California" back in the '60s.

Re:partisan (3, Troll)

the_radix (454343) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682337)

...make the Bush administration seem inept and disorganized.

Wait... you mean it isn't?

Ultra liberal slashdot response (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682115)

Let's just raise taxes and give everyone what they want! Except big business, let's prosecute them.

Such a shame... (0, Flamebait)

Karma Sink (229208) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682125)

Just another example of the short-sighted nature of the Bush administration. After all, LLNL are already working on things like Anthrax Detection [llnl.gov] and other Bioterrorist agents. [llnl.gov]

I doubt that anything organized under Tom Ridge is going to be nearly as effective in bringing advances in the realms of fighting terrorists, let alone helping to make the advances that LLNL have brought to all of science.

Re:Such a shame... (2)

rodgerd (402) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682197)

Short sighted? It would be short sighted to let them continue research into anthrax detection. After all, the FBI investigation was pulled as soon as the evidence pointed to extremist right-wingers linked with millitary research scientists.

Re:Such a shame... (2)

TWR (16835) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682271)

Except that the investigation hasn't been pulled, tin foil hat boy.

Of course, since you know everything, you can just tell us all the name of the person who sent out the anthrax letters, show us your proof (or is your word proof enough?), and show up the FBI.

-jon

Re:Such a shame... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682291)

well, folks, it really is that bad - the fbi is so lost they've resorted to asking random slashdotters for help in solving the anthrax case.

a sad sight indeed.

Re:Such a shame... (1)

Master Bait (115103) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682210)

What can we expect from a man who lost his last political contest to a dead man? But it amazes me how popular the befuddled president. I think he's the worst since Grover Cleveland.

Re:Such a shame... (2)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682250)

The stature he enjoys currently is so clearly the product of the public need to have an admirable figure during a time of crisis (as was, I believe, the esteem accorded the Kennedy administration - I always felt he was overrated as a President) that I consider the Great Man theory of history to have taken yet another mortal blow.

Re:Such a shame... (1)

MaxVlast (103795) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682293)

People really don't make enough of that: Carnahan DIED! The voters of Missouri wanted him out of the Senate so badly, they voted for a DEAD man!

Cool project? (0)

matsh (30900) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682126)

LLNL funded and houses the ASCI White supercomputer, among other cool projects.

Since when is it cool to simulate nuclear bombs?

Mats

Re:Cool project? (2)

Kenja (541830) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682130)

Compared to testing them in the "real world" I'd say this is rather cool.

Re:Cool project? (1)

johnpaul191 (240105) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682157)

yeah, i'm with you. i'll take the fake detonation anyday.

no, my feelings were not swayed by watching Dr Strangelove this weekend...... i guess i can live without the comedy since we won't ever know the fun-fun that goes on in the war room.

Re:Cool project? (1)

kilgore_47 (262118) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682311)

NO FIGHTING IN THE WAR ROOM!!!

(lameness-filter-defeating text... (I'll yell if I want to, damnit))

Re:Cool project? (2)

colmore (56499) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682324)

you're missing the point

they aren't simulating nuclear detonations for a fucking screensaver, they're simulating to design better (i.e. deadlier, more horrible) weapons.

all that computing power, and this is what they do with it. they could be working on protein folding, doing advanced simulation on an alternative fuel engine, heck, they could leave it sitting there idly testing the reimann hypothesis, but they're designing bigger and supposedly better ways of killing off an entire city.

H bombs are big and scary, supposedly the only thing we want them for is deterrant, and aren't they already big enough and scary enough for that purpose? even if you don't think the US would ever use such a weapon (though it's the only nation in history that has) eventually knowledge spreads, and someone somewhere has a bigger bomb thanks to the cool supercomputer.

Sure it's better than turning unspoiled tropical islands into Dresden, but that doesn't make it *good*

/ end leftist, out-of-fashion, no-nukes rant.

Re:Cool project? (3, Insightful)

Kenja (541830) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682349)

Unless we get rib of all such weapons testing designs is a good thing as it stops them from blowing up in the silo.

Do you know how old our curent stockpile is? Do you know what the expected stable life time is of our curent weapons? Look both nubers up and you may be in for a shock.

Right now we have a shortage of people able to design and maintain nukes. This is a bad thing unless we manage to get rid of every last one of them (not going to happen).

Re:Cool project? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682353)

They also simulate to make sure that the existing stockpile still works. There are many old bombs, and since we don't test anymore, you have to run simulations instead.

Re:Cool project? (0)

Bob Kronkel (580551) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682150)

Haven't you ever played Command and Conquer?

Re:Cool project? (1)

Minter92 (148860) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682159)

If that aint cool what is.

Re:Cool project? (2)

lingqi (577227) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682198)

Since when is it cool to simulate nuclear bombs?

while the disagreement may come from "simulating nuclear bombs", i would like to point out that the author is focusing on the "cool-ness" of ASCI WHITE, not the experimentation that it is used for.

You can marvel for ages at a sharp new kitchen knife in itself, while not necessarily endorse the slaughtering (of my poor, poor carrots).

Besides, when (maybe one day) the scientists will get bored with generalized simulation of thermonuclear reactions and possibly direct this result into, say, nuclear power plants, nuclear propulsion, mars terraforming, etc etc

corrections that's too late (1)

lingqi (577227) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682214)

i posted and suddenly realized that carrots inevitably led to correlation that would not necessarily seem... approporiate... so -- good for you if you did not make the connection, and shame on the rest of you.

plug in "cabbages" in there, dirty minds

the wrong approach for homeland security (1)

dirvish (574948) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682139)

Wouldn't taking away from Lawrence Livermore Labs budget be about the worst thing for homeland security, at least in the long run? I thought that is where the US develops a lot of military stuff. If GWB cuts off developed we will be fsked in the future when everyone has bad-ass weapons and we are still poking around with patriot missles.

Re:the wrong approach for homeland security (0)

Bob Kronkel (580551) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682165)

I don't think you need to worry about the U.S. being technically behind of the world when it comes to weapon technology.

the gist of it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682145)

"I just have to give you a better dollar amount," Ridge said. "The bigger issue to be framed here is for you to understand that we are not going to take over the traditional relationship they (the Department of Energy) had with Lawrence Livermore."

Ridge said only employees who work specifically on countermeasures to protect Americans against nuclear, biological or chemical weapons -- a small fraction of the lab's work -- would be affected.

"Historically, and at least for now and for the future, the Department of Energy is going to control and work with Lawrence Livermore as it relates to nuclear weapons systems," Ridge said.

Cool Stuff... or Security... Hmmm... (-1)

TrollBridge (550878) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682146)

Ya know, if this was any other site besides Slashdot, this would be an easy choice.

Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot (1)

rlthomps-1 (545290) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682149)

One of our great advantages over other foreign countries/terrorist groups is our technological innovation. I can't believe that we'd devote research dollars the explicitly promote that technological advantage towards homeland security. Just because homeland security is the hot topic doesn't mean we should cut off our means of supporting ourselves in the future.

Re:Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot (2)

jukal (523582) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682187)

> foreign countries/terrorist groups

Excellent way of putting it, anyone originating from a "foreign" country must clearly be about the same as a terrorist. Therefore, US should define everyone not born there as a terrorist and lock the doors.

I had the same strategy as a kid when I foolishly yelled something at a group of bigger guys and tried to lock myself inside a little junk food store. It did not work very well. Then again, if I had not yelled at those guys at all, maybe...

Unknot your panties (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682207)

the '/' means or in this case. He is not implying that all foriegn countries are terrorists. Try to not be so thin skinned, m-kay? :)

Re:Unknot your panties (2)

jukal (523582) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682237)

> Try to not be so thin skinned, m-kay? :)

Heh, I just saw good weather for fishing ;))

Re:Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682261)

I'd settle for just acknowledging that every Islamic country is a den of terrorists. We need to get on with the business of annihilating them.

At the end of the day, I'd just say to every Islamic piece of shit country: don't like America? Fuck you. Enjoy this tactical nuke, camel jockey.

Re:Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682283)

fuck you

Re:Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot (2)

colmore (56499) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682346)

total membership of terrorist organizations worldwide: maybe 100,000, tops.

islamic population: almost 1 billion

making terrorists 1/100th of a percent of islamics.

so can the genocide.

Scary Stuff (1)

bastion_xx (233612) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682155)

Wow. And LLNL was definitely part of the holy trinity along with LANL and Sandia as the preminent nuclear weapons sites. Getting stuck in a Kane booth at LLNL was always so much fun. :/

From the computer science side of things though, Livermore has contributed a lot. It'd be sad to see them disbanded.

Silly acronyms (-1)

TrollBridge (550878) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682162)

LLNL, LANL, IANAL... comon people, enough with the acronyms... or can't you actually spell the whole word out?

I believe there were right wing wackos on here (-1, Troll)

Left Wing Troll (584687) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682161)

earlier argueing the new homeland security department doesn't include any new positions..In fact, someone said they are CUTTING government pork(positions)...Here is the REAL TRUTH..There's gonna be cuts alright....cuts from good social educational services to fund BIG DUBYA's COWBOY BRIGADE...

read the billy de FUDgeville Institute report (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682178)

on the dangers of not giving all of your security billyuns to the kingdumb. just look what happened to gotti.

meanwhile, the justin de Linusville Institute has re-leased diss report [trustworthycomputing.com] , which would leave one's head spinning as to why even the corrupt lamo fuderal gov't. would spend one more dime of J. Public's money on the notoriously infactdead m$ payper liesense bugwear blight.

if HomePage security is outlawed, only crooks will have homepages. eye gas that's IT then for US.

Wont die (4, Informative)

NovaX (37364) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682184)

The title makes it sound like LLNL will be shut down. I know numerous people who work there, most of which on a massive project called NIF. Tron was shot in SHEVA, which was replaced by NOVA (deriving my nick), which is being replaced by NIF. NIF is the largest fusion laser, based on ICF principles, and is under full swing of construction. It will be brought up later this year. In fact, France has a smaller 8-laser version that just came up this last week and LLNL employees flown there in order to observe any difficulties. This project is a multi-billion dollar one which I severely doubt the government will allow to be scrapped due to budget cuts like this.

So, the most I can see if LLNL being streamlined. I doubt Congress will even give 10% of what they're requesting out of LLNL's budget. LLNL does valuable research in weapon, energy, materials, etc. The government labs are run under the DOE, but do most of their expensive work for the DOD, such as NIF and ASCII being mostly for nuclear research. When the lab scare with China occured it was suggested that the DOD take over the labs, but instead they finally got their act together. Since this is most of the budget, I could only guess they are really trying to transfer the lab to this new department or the Bush administration going to screw everything up.

Re:Wont die (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682329)

afghanistan banana-stand.

i repeat: afghanistan banana-stand.

Re:Wont die (1)

ForExportOnly (529923) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682355)

I actually work at the Laboratory for Laser Energetics (http://www.lle.rochester.edu) - The NIF prototype. We have a laser that dumps ~30 Terrawatts in about a billionth of a second through 60 beams. All lot of our employees are Livermore folks and they were all sent an email last Friday. Ridge is right - 4% must be a typo if 80% of their budget (read: salaries) is getting transferred.

"terrorism" is being used as an excuse (1, Flamebait)

g4dget (579145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682185)

People in Washington are just using terrorism as an excuse to push an agenda that has nothing to do with terrorism and existed long before 9/11. LLNL, for example, has been an irritation for the Bush administration, and that kind of government funded research doesn't fit too well into their philosophy anyway; that's why they like to play football with it.

Re:"terrorism" is being used as an excuse (3, Informative)

kilgore_47 (262118) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682348)

People in Washington are just using terrorism as an excuse to push an agenda that has nothing to do with terrorism and existed long before 9/11. LLNL, for example, has been an irritation for the Bush administration, and that kind of government funded research doesn't fit too well into their philosophy anyway; that's why they like to play football with it.

1. It's a typo. They're not getting shutdown.
2. Defense Contractors don't fit into the Bush administration's philosophy? Wtf are you smoking?
3. There is no step three.

Don't worry. Yet. (4, Insightful)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682195)

The article I read indicates that this is probably a misprint or other simple error.

More newsworthy: The Bush Administration is holding three US citizens in military custody, with no rights to legal representation or due process.

Jesus Christ, am I the only one who this terrifies? Am I going to someday have to explain to my kids why, on old episodes of Law & Order, the suspects weren't simply turned over to the military when they asked for a lawyer?

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (2)

Kenja (541830) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682213)

Time to watch The Siege [thesiege.com] again.

Nope. (2)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682238)

I'd be more terrified of 3 terrorists wandering around this country detonating dirty bombs. As far as the Law&Order thing, we aren't talking about 3 kids who were caught swiping gumdrops from the corner store. We are talking about people who want to come into this country and kill as many people as they can.

Re:Nope. (4, Insightful)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682268)

Some people hold the flag sacred. I, on the other hand, hold the ideas embodied in the Constitution and Bill of Rights in the same esteem.

It frightens and dismays me that you're willing to rip up our most basic civil rights by yelling "terrorist!", "smallpox!" and "dirty bomb!" at the top of your lungs.

And these aren't people who "come into this country", they're citizens of the US. Every American should be outraged that Bush and company are so willing to disregard the rights he's sworn to defend.

Re:Nope. (1)

buck_wild (447801) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682310)

Just curious... Would you say the same thing if they were on their way to YOUR neighborhood?

You: "Gee, they got two year's probation. I'm glad they got due-process."

Me: "Put 'em in the same room as the bomb."

As you can see, I prefer more of an eye-for-an-eye approach. But I'd never burn a flag.

Re:Nope. (1)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682316)

And these aren't people who "come into this country", they're citizens of the US.

Are you trying to say the guy they just caught didn't come from Pakistan. That sounds like 'coming into the counrty' to me.
Many of the people stopped at the border are not US citizens and citizens who are in a foriegn military are nolonger considered US citizens. But, please, enlighten us: What would YOU do to those who are comming to this country with the intent of killing hundreds, if not thousands, of your fellow Americans?

Also, please point out where I said anything about smallpox or how I can yell with text, or retract those statements.

Re:Nope. (2)

Lictor (535015) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682318)

Maybe you should spend a little time reflecting on why it is that the U.S. is such a great country.

I'll even get you started with a very enlightened quote from one of your own founding fathers:

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security."
-Benjamin Franklin

Re:Nope. (1, Troll)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682342)

I live 15 minutes from Downtown DC. How would you react if one of these could go off in your backyard?

Plus, if you want to argue, please argue, don't just post some overused quote and scamper off.

Re:Nope. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682383)

I'd react the same way I would if someone, say, drove by my house and shot at it: I'd want to see them arrested and put on trial. I want to see them proved guilty and locked away according to the law.

Why do you like living in America? If the MPAA shock troops kicked in your door and arrested you for ripping your CDs, don't you think you deserve a lawyer and a trial in front of your peers? If you were accused of killing someone, shouldn't the police have to prove that you did it before you get carted off to prison?

You live 15 minutes from downtown DC. Go look at the war memorials and ask yourself why those people died. You think it was for some stripped scrap of cloth, or for what it represented? Look at the memorials to Jefferson and Lincoln and Washington, then tell me you think they'd toss civil liberties out the window the second it was convenient.

People like you kill me -- you seem to know that being an American means something, but you couldn't tell me what.

Re:Nope. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682372)

nice troll. branching out are we, TTR?

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682270)

Numbnut. These people want to kill you and I. Not some polotical target in particular, or someone who has done them a particular disservice. No. You and I, the common people.

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682280)

Right. So people accused of murder don't deserve trials either, right? If the government says they're guilty, they must be guilty.

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682319)

Didn't say that at all, you moron. They'll get their day in front of people who will decide their fate.

Please, more self-righteous pap (2, Flamebait)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682284)

You're either bitching about inadequate security, or you're bitching about vigorously enforcement of security.

You have an armed body claiming they have the right to kill four million Americans, who have demonstrated a high degree of lethality to date. Why don't you drop out of your naive fantasy land for a while to hazard some concern for the true physical safety of your children rather than your own patrician sensibilities.

Hello, these are US citizens you moron (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682301)

Okay, but don't cry to me when they come to arrest you on secret evidence and toss you in a brig. Want to call a lawyer? Too bad. That'll teach you not to be white.

Re:Hello, these are US citizens you moron (1)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682364)

Where in the law does holding citizenship bar you from being treated as an enemy combatant?

Re:Please, more self-righteous pap (1)

buck_wild (447801) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682366)

Well put. VERY well put.

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (3, Informative)

TWR (16835) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682294)

1. It's two citizens. One of whom hasn't lived here since he was a small child (child of Saudi nationals who happened to be born while parents were in the US. Yes, he's a citizen, but I bet he never thought of himself as an American until he found out that he could use that detail to get himself out of the pokey). The other sounds like he meets even an idiot's definition of traitor.

2. Precedent was established in 1942 during WW II. Democratic president, even.

-jon

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (5, Insightful)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682332)

Precedent? Oh, you mean internment camps, right?

Look, I don't care if these guys get arrested, tried and locked up in SuperMax for the rest of time. It's the whole lack of the middle part (you know, trial?) that worries me. Civil rights are what makes America something special, and I'm not so scared of terrorists that I'm willing to flush 'em down the toilet.

You should agree with me. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that we can trust the government to always behave reponsibly and do the right thing. Jesus, why do you think we have a court system?

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682330)

Bottom line: The "civil rights" of three little shitholes in custody are irrelevant. Once they turned against America they pretty much repudiated their citizenship and any rights that went along with it.

We know the latest one (Padilla) was up to some no good shit. That fact that he is being held without a lawyer won't make me lose sleep. They can beat his ass to within an inch of his life every day, round the clock for the rest of his life and I won't bat an eye.

If a radiological dispersal device ever does go off in this country I hope the government rounds up everyone who was concerned about these jerkoffs and forces them to be part of the cleanup crew. Exposing their gonads to radiation might produce beneficial mutations (such as increased intelligence) in their offspring. I fail to see how it could do otherwise as anyone who is the least bit concerned about these scum is stupider than what I flush down the toilet on any given day.

If it was up to me the public would never have even heard of John Walker Lindh. He'd be dead and buried in a shallow grave in Afghanistan. He might amount to a footnote in some government archive if I felt like adding a notation to some paperwork saying "Shot some little scumbag who claimed to be American but he looked and smelled like a Taliban dog so I wasted his ass on the spot for trying to elicit sympathy when he deserved none."

Re:Don't worry. Yet. (5, Insightful)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682343)

The part that scares me is the fact that this new guy was in the "discussion stages" of building a dirty bomb. No Uranium, no bomb...just discussion. Keep an eye on him? Yeah. Haul him into custody, tell him that he is being watched and advise him against proceeding? Yeah. Military custody with no representation? That's the stuff we get all huffy about when other countries do it.

The last time I checked, the only crime you could get in trouble for discussing was killing the president.

Conspiracy theory. (3, Insightful)

blair1q (305137) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682200)

Is anyone surprised that the oil interests holding the White House are trying to cut funding for a lab that researches alternative energy sources such as nuclear fusion? And being very weird about it?

--Blair
"I'm not."

please mod this up (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3682233)

the lone gunmen said to.

This is going to be a huge debacle (3, Insightful)

sterno (16320) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682211)

Many people seem to be assuming that this office is an inebitibilty because of the need for us to reorganize to fight the war on terrorism. While I'm willing to believe that something called the "Office for Homeland Security" will be formed, the nature of that beast is likely to be a complete mess.

First of all you've got some people looking at this as an opportunity to trim what they perceive as pork (LLNL for example). It's also an opportunity for people to add programs (like Hillary Clinton's request to add a department to deal with helping children). You can expect a torrent of these things in the coming weeks, months, and maybe even years.

You can expect that when all is said and done, this agency will be a huge bureaucratic behemoth that does not do its job any more effectively than all these seperate agencies have done in the past. The only difference is that it will sound cool.

In the end this will all just be yet another government shuffling of the deck chairs while real problems continue to happen. People will believe they must be doing something because there's a new office forming, but in the end it's going to be the same as it ever was.

Cynical? Perhaps. Please proove me wrong.

Damn, downsized AGAIN (2)

Sean Clifford (322444) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682212)

Damn, another of my friends is going to get downsized again. He *just* got a gig there working as a physicist.

WFT does the the Office of Homeland security need with Lawrence Livermore anyway? More to the point, WTF do we need with an Office of Homeland Security. This just sounds like an American equivalent of the KGB.

Perspective (3, Informative)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682241)

1 Billion Dollars is a huge amount of money. It could buy you:

176 Petabytes of hard disk space (176,000,000 GB)

or

6.6 Petabytes of RAM (6,600,000)

or

A fully loaded computer system for every resident of Idaho (1.3 Million)

The interest on 1 Billion dollars at 5% would allow 1400 people to retire comfortably, without ever touching the principal.

My question is, what the hell is the Office of Homeland Security going to do with that much money? Aren't they just supposed to be a "coordinating organization" that helps other government organizations plan for disaster? How many people can that take?

Re:Perspective (5, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682287)

Hey now. Internment camps and holding pens cost money you know.

Re:Perspective (0, Flamebait)

mfago (514801) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682374)

Crank call Ashcrofts house and then we'll see who's laughing. I doubt you'll get your requisite phone call from the internment camp.

AFAIK Bush is just the puppet of Der Fuhrer Ashcroft. Or at least it seems that way. And my appologies to dictators everywhere.

Re:Perspective from Dr. Evil (1)

t0qer (230538) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682325)

1 Billion Dollars
For some reason I picture GWB with a bald head, pinky to the chin..
I will hold Livermore hostage for 1 Billion Dollars

Re: Perspective (3, Funny)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682359)


> 1 Billion Dollars is a huge amount of money. It could buy you:

An Oracle license for everyone in California?

Who works for who? (3, Informative)

JerMarHill (470274) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682248)

LLNL is run by the University of California as a contractor for the Department of Energy. Most people on-site are therefore UC employees. There are also a large number of contractors working for the DOE but not for UC. Then there are DOD personnel attached to programs, who are neither DOE or UC. There are UC employees who are not LLNL, but Berkeley or Davis or whatever who are on site. Add FBI (DOJ), CIA, the people who serve lunches for Aramark or whoever runs the cafeteria, the guys who supply bathroom soap, blah blah, it's a mess. (I'm not even making guesses about our cooperative ventures with the RCMP, GCHQ, and whatever other foreign-national acronym you can think of).

When they talk about 'federal' employees moving around, I don't even know who they are referring to. Everyone I know is UC, I think... It's all about where the money flows, and I can't keep that straight as it is now!

-AlphaGeek (Poor, Abused Graduate Student and Livermore Laboratory employee)

republican federal hate list (-1, Flamebait)

peter303 (12292) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682278)

Certain federal departments are constantly targeted for cuts because intefere with big business. Frequent targets include:
-Department of Interior: because it manages western lands than many covert, and it has many pro-environmentalist employees. Those damn geologists in the USGS believe in evolution too.
-NASA: due to cost over runs and environmental satellites.
-Department of Energy: never forgave President Carter for raiding other agencies, and reducing atomic bomb development. Also has too many alternative energy wackos. DOE runs Livermore.
-Department of Education: run by left-wing teacher unions. Because both Mr. & Mrs. Bush have a soft spot for education- a Republican heresy- this department hasn't been bashed that badly.
-Department of Commerce: has too many wacko global business types. Also contains NOAA, a hotbed of environmentalists.

LLNL : what have you done for me lately (0, Flamebait)

d0n quix0te (304783) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682305)

Like it or not, the reality is one of hundreds of scientists sitting on their asses and playing bloody solitaire. Having seen the LLNL work culture at first hand. I will be the first to cheer when these government funded fat-asses get booted.

Seriously, at LLNL work is anathema. This is number one dilbert organization. Well I am overly generalizing but there are a few good guys at LLNL at the expense of thousands of dumbasses.

Shut 'em down I say. Oh, while you are at it, lets boot the guys at Sandia National labs also.

new way to get rid of projects you don't like (1)

saviorsloth (467974) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682309)

just ship them over to the office of homeland security!!

Flat-out Dumb (0, Flamebait)

ChaoticCoyote (195677) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682317)

Bush seems determined to drive this country into the ground; like a typical fundamentalist, he fears anything he doesn't understand. He lacks the mental capacity to comprehend the work at LLNL, but he does understand the hot-button politics of "defending the homeland" -- so guess where the money flows.

After the cold war, I appreciated how the intellectual power of the National Laboratories was redirected into positive applications. Now I can just guess what Livermore's computers will be doing this time next years... sifting our e-mail, watching our phone calls, analyzing facial images... so much power, once again focused on destruction. Only in this case, the power is turned inward, against our own citizens, in the name of "protecting" the "homeland."

Last September 11th, in reaction to the terrorist acts, I posted an article stating:

We must be vigilant that vicious acts of cowardice do not become tools of self-serving politicians; we can not allow horror to destroy our freedoms. This is not the time to hide in our shells, or for governments to turn against their own citizens. As the emotion subsides, we need to find the strength to approach this from the standpoint of justice.

I just knew this was going to happen -- the erosion of privacy, the extension of police powers, and now the redistribution of government resources from useful endeavours to political ends.

Even as I speak, my wife is preparing the usual onslaught of letters to our Congress-critters. Will it do any good? I don't know -- but at least it's a start. If you care about science in America, if you believe that thinking is more important than reacting, then say something. Please.

Silence will only get you screwed.

pizza? (0)

FFON (266696) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682328)

ok.. some one sent out an email saying there was pizza on the 3rd floor.. i went and waited for 15min.. nuthin! i went back to my desk, then everyone starting coming from the lunchroom with said pizza! i ran in to find it all gone.. . friggen i love pizza.... :(

Department of Homeland Security (2)

CyberDruid (201684) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682336)

Can someone explain for a non-USAian, the semantic intricacies that makes "Department of Homeland Security" mean something else than "National Security Agency"?

Is there a large difference between a department and an agency?

Re:Department of Homeland Security (2)

Indy1 (99447) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682376)

I agree that the semantics behind the names are quite similar. In reality, the NSA is tasked with electronic signal gathering, such as taps on trunk lines, satelite (sic) intelligence, radio intercepts, cryptographic signal analysis, etc. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) in theory is supposed to be a collection of various US departments and agencies (such as FBI, Coast Guard, Immigration, etc) that have an influence over internal US security grouped together under a unified command.

In reality, I suspect (my opinion to follow) that the DHS will either get mired in the some political infighting that the NSA and CIA have been stuck in for decades, or worse, the DHS will be used as an excuse for all sorts of fascist activities (think 1984 and the Ministry of Truth).

Re:Department of Homeland Security (1)

NiceGeek (126629) | more than 12 years ago | (#3682378)

"Department" implies a cabinet-level orginization for example "The Department of Defense" An "Agency" is along the lines of the CIA,FBI,NSA

A "department" has considerably more power.
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