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Results of Another Web Publishing Experiment

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the pulp-fiction dept.

The Media 117

Dienyddio writes "Shadowmarch, an ambitious web publishing project launched by Tad Williams last year (previously mentioned on slashdot) is to cease the bi-monthly story format after one year. The sad news was broken by Tad on the site. It seems that there were just too few subscribers to make the format pay, this combined with the heavy load placed on Tad by writing two episodes a month and a paper book to pay the bills has proved too much. All is not lost, DAW books has purchased the rights to three books based on the Shadowmarch story. It is hoped that these books will maintain the community side of the site. Tad will also be increasing the number of background stories and details relating to the Shadowmarch world on the site in order to promote fan interaction."

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My my (-1, Troll)

gazbo (517111) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700215)

That's an ambitious project for CLITs

Nope. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700299)

I think not. FP does *NOT* stand for Fudge Packer. Since CLIT's blatant faggotry is readily apparent in every member and supporter, their claims to be the "FP" are null and void.

This first post claimed for AC's worldwide.
Suck it, CLIT.

advertizing (2, Insightful)

capoccia (312092) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700221)

probably should have been more advertising. this is the first time i'm hearing about this company.

Targeted advertizing and frequent content updates. (1)

rector (580924) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700941)

Targeted advirtizing would help. Not everyone would be interested in this kind of stuff. As for me, I would find boring to, saqy, come to a website twice a month to read a new story. I think there should be more material to attract people on a daily basis. May be, some news related to fantasy in jeneral. Once someone came to your website, you should try to keep their attention for a while. In case of such a site with original and interesting content it doesn't matter that you can find simi8lar news somewhere else. If one likes the site, he will come there again just to read a few paragraphs of new (even not original) material.

Re:advertizing (1)

LES.. (1366) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703059)

*sigh* indeed advertising would have helped, google for Tad Williams and Shadowmarch comes in number 3 ranking below a Fan page.

It seems even exposure of /. does not catch enough peoples interest.

Results of another cock publishing experiment (-1)

DivineOb (256115) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700225)

I've got *three* shoved in my arse!!!

Books vs. serials (3, Insightful)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700231)

I think this and prior attempts don't show that publishing on the Web doesn't work so much as they show that publishing books in serialized installments doesn't work.

Not really (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700253)

Hi there,

I have a couple of rather odd requests to make, not something which would be accepted for an Ask Slashdot either ..

My first question is, does anyone know where I can obtain damging trojan horse programs from? I plan to plant them on my open ftp server (it keeps getting hit by warez dudes, I'd like to get my own back somehow)

Secondly, does anyone know of a sure way to submit someone's email address to spam collecting bots? I am secretly keeping track of someone's email via a .forward file to an anonymous email account that I check every week or so. However, in order to determine if it is still forwarding, I need to have emails sent there at irregular but short intervals. Spam seems the perfect option, but how do I trigger it?

Kind regards,
Jimmy Bucketspoon

does this mean... (1)

Joe 'Nova' (98613) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700274)

only well heeled novels will get published on net?
There was a hacker story sent ebook style, (sterling?), and his intent was not to make $, but make a statement abotu an overzealous prosecutor(charged $50,000 for a $13 reference that got hacked)
I'm sorta worried that this will go the way of the printing press: only money talks-and everybody else will shut up.
says something about web ads, they can't make something profitable either.
I do see it from the starving artist side too, he does have to support himself.

Re:Books vs. serials (3, Insightful)

No Such Agency (136681) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700295)

I'm not sure that serialized books "don't work", so much as that people are so accustomed now to their serialized entertainment being televized weekly (or even daily!) that waiting for only 2 installments a month might not be very appealing to that many people. {loser}This is just my gut feeling, based on how long a week can feel when you're waiting for a new episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to hit the tube{/loser}. Add to that the reluctance of many people to pay for electronic text (Hell, even Stephen King couldn't make that work!) and this venture had a lot going against it. Too bad, because I really like the idea of authors being able to sell their work online, even if half the readers end up not paying them to read it. After all, I'm sure many authors get lots of new fans via second-hand book sales and libraries!

Re:Books vs. serials (1)

lutzomania (139132) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700351)

You're right that TV has replaced magazine serialization. Serialization was very popular in the past. In fact, early novels were simply bound versions of the chapters in stories that first appeared in serial magazines. Almost all of Dickens' novels appeared first in serials. Collier's and the Saturday Evening Post published them well into the 50s, when (coincidentally?) television went mainstream.

I think serialization could be popuar again, especially in genre fiction (fantasy, mystery, etc.), which tends to be more plot-driven and episodic than "serious" fiction.

To me, the problems seems to be the distribution medium. Web head that I am, I can't read a long piece of fiction on a computer screen. I gotta see it on paper, and I don't mean Letter or A4 with crap fonts.

Does anyone know what ever happened to Barnes & Noble's plans for "print on demand"? They piloted a service where the book files (PDF?) were fetched off a network and then printed and bound right in the store. That seems to me like a good approach to serialized fiction on the net. You get your chapter once a month and then have it printed at Kinko's or something. Each chapter could be printed as a folio and saddle-stitched, then when the story ended you could have all the folios bound into a nice book.

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

arkanes (521690) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700572)

Of course, serialization is one reason Dickens sucks so much... he's so wordy and drawn out because he was paid by the word and under constant pressure. His books could use some trimming down...

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

No Such Agency (136681) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702778)

:-) Yeah, Dickens... Do you really think his books suck? (it's been ages since I read any, I can't remember much) I suspect Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories were paid for by the word too, and they don't suck. Both great authors, who, to be fair, were writing in the style of their time. Jane Austen was verbose too. 19th century folks liked their novels the way they liked their women - with just a little extra padding.

Re:Books vs. serials (1)

Patrick13 (223909) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702012)

don't forget about radio serials (ie soap operas) and movie serials: flash gordon was a staple of the movie-going public in the 40's and 50's.

Re:Books vs. serials (4, Interesting)

Todd Knarr (15451) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700635)

I don't know, Eric Flint and David Drake seem to be making decent money in royalties off electronic forms of their older books. Not great money, maybe 2 grand a year, but then these are older backlist titles that normally only sell 5-600 copies a year so royalties aren't that great for the paper forms either. And the copy-protected electronic forms of Drake's books barely make enough in royalties every year to pay for a decent pizza. I think it boils down to:

  1. People won't pay per chapter for serialized works, they'd rather get it all at once.
  2. People won't pay to deal with copy-protection hassles, but they will pay to have it readily available electronically.
  3. People won't pay as much for the electronic form as for paper.
I think authors can live with this. See Eric Flint's essays over on the Baen Free Library.

Re:Books vs. serials (1)

eXtro (258933) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700741)

Tad William's Shadowland was serialized but wasn't pay-per-chapter. There was a one time fee associated with it (I can't remember how much I payed but it wasn't a great amount, definately less than a hardcover, probably more than a paperback). The first couple of chapters were and are free.

I had never heard of Tad William's till a friend turned me on to his Otherland series, which I devoured. I still haven't read his other books but I did look up his website to find out when the next book in the series would occur.

That's where I found out about his Shadowmarch experiment. He was making an honest effort at it, unlike Steven King, so I decided to sign up.

I think this fails for one reason: The average internet user isn't willing to pay a meaningful amount for content. If you've got old material which isn't selling well anyway you can probably make a bit of money. If you've got new material you'll probably never make enough to justify the time and effort writing it, assuming you're trying to make a living rather than supplement a living.

Marketing is probably part of his problem, the only time I saw ads was when my ad-free subscription to Sluggy Freelance [sluggy.com] cookie would expire. I think I've probably seen the ad pop up a couple times on sinfest [sinfest.net] as well.

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

The Cat (19816) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703661)

The average internet user isn't willing to pay a meaningful amount for content.

This is a myth. Repeating it doesn't make it more true. We've just gotten through with at least four stories on this very site about how much people are GOING to pay for content.

Re:Books vs. serials (1)

rector (580924) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701092)

>People won't pay per chapter for serialized works, they'd rather get it all at once. This is true. But they may pay if you send tree chapters from three different books at once. And give the choice to subscribe just for one book with significant dicounts for any extra book. If one finds this particular book (say one of the three) boring he will unsubscribe and save $$$ on buying the rest of the book. >People won't pay to deal with copy-protection hassles, but they will pay to have it readily available electronically. This is true as well. If the material is copy-protected, it is usully imposiible to print it. While it is much nicer to read a beautifully printed copy then watch the screen. >People won't pay as much for the electronic form as for paper This is true as well. But just for a book, not for a journal. And true only for copy-protected material. Once you can print it or send to a friend, electronic source is more benefitial then a paper copy.

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

zangdesign (462534) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700680)

One of the problems with serialized novels is that they take too long. I can knock out a 600 page book in two/three nights. Now, I consider myself a pretty good/avid reader, but that's probably the low end of the scale.

Having to wait a month for the author to complete the next chapter would be absolute murder.

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

CynicTheHedgehog (261139) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700454)

As a form of serialization, web comics do okay if they are done well. Witness Megatokyo [megatokyo.com], Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com], PvP [pvponline.com], and I guess to some extend Mac Hall [machall.com], although I've only been reading the last for a few months.

The business model for these comics is interesting. The comic itself has no value; with so much competition in free entertainment there is no way they could make people pay for it. But they can sell merchandise and they can solicit fan endorsement. Kurtz sells comic books that are along the lines of the webcomic but not quite. Mac Hall and Megatokyo sell merchandise ala Cafe Press. Penny Arcade...well...I'm not exactly sure what they do, but it has something to do with wallpapers and Paypal.

And let's not forget ads.

What I would like to see, as a consumer, is a lot of these comics brought together under one web publication. In Japan, manga is distributed in a big monthly magazine containing works by many authors. The magazine sells, the ads sell, and the publication passes some of that along to the artists (I would hope). If something like this appeared online, say like Keenspot but more organized, more selective, and with much much much higher bandwidth, I would definitely pay for it, ads and all, simply for the convenience of a daily/weekly/monthly strip on a high availability server.

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701785)

Publishing books in serialized installments works fine. In fact, most of Tad Williams other books come in three and four book series, and people gladly waited until the next book came out.

The problem with this experiment is that it had all of the disadvantages of a paper bound book, and none of the advantages. I love Tad Williams, but I am not going to shell out $21 bucks a year, in advance, for a story that he may or may not finish and that doesn't come in book form. Especially when I can go to www.baen.com and get books in a unencrypted format of my choice for $4 a pop (or four for $10).

Tad wanted to charge hardback prices for a book that A) wasn't finished, and B) was available only in a digital format.

Re:Books vs. serials (2, Informative)

LES.. (1366) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703152)

erm the cost is $17.99 (US) [shadowmarch.com]. This is significanly less than a hardcover Tad novel in my neck of the woods. Still it is more than a paperback which most people seem to consider closer to what you are getting... I personally rate the art work as being well worth the difference.

Shadowmarch is published in plain HTML fairly portable and open really.

Re:Books vs. serials (2)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703524)

When I looked into subscribing I believe the cost was around $21. That's maybe not as much as a Tad Williams hardcover, but it will buy you a hardcover from most other Fantasy authors.

And in many ways ShadowMarch is considerably less than a trade paperback. It might have a nifty web site, but that's not necessarily a bonus for most readers. Tad didn't even have to pay for professional editting, marketing, or distribution. Yet he still expects us to pay nearly double the paperback price.

I must admit that the HTML format is nice, but the book would be completely worthless if it wasn't in an open format. If I am going to pay $18 for a subscription to a serial available only in electronic format then you can bet that I am going to want it in an unecrypted format.

The funny thing about this experiment is that it will almost certainly work out well for Mr. Williams. He has sold the book anyhow, and so anything he made from shadowmarch.com is pure gravy. Basically a whole pile of Tad Williams fans paid to proofread his newest novel. My guess is that the shadowmarch.com experiment will even increase the sales when it comes out in book form. I know that I will probably buy it.

It does make me somewhat sad, however, that this experiment didn't work out better. I honestly believe that the major problem was that Tad priced his book out of the market. We'll never know now, but at least we will be able to find out how the story ends.

fp? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700233)


Re:fp? (-1)

ScRipT KiDDiE L33T!! (582969) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700251)

AC'5 S|_|C|<, 4|\|D j00 R 4 F4G!!

G3T |T ||\| j00!

I dedicate this post to humankind, may it live until 2010, where the great hankerchief of the sky will wipe us up, like the snot we are (2 minutes yet?).


Reminds me of Project Faustus (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700236)

Hi there,

I have a couple of rather odd requests to make, not something which would be accepted for an Ask Slashdot either ..

My first question is, does anyone know where I can obtain damaging trojan horse programs from? I plan to plant them on my open ftp server (it keeps getting hit by warez dudes, I'd like to get my own back somehow)

Secondly, does anyone know of a sure way to submit someone's email address to spam collecting bots? I am secretly keeping track of someone's email via a .forward file to an anonymous email account that I check every week or so. However, in order to determine if it is still forwarding, I need to have emails sent there at irregular but short intervals. Spam seems the perfect option, but how do I trigger it?

Kind regards,
Jimmy Bucketspoon

Re:Reminds me of Project Faustus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700282)

You ask for help in spreading trojans, and launching some sort of spam attack at someone?

Why don't you go to the police and ask them for a gun and to pop someone with as well?`

Grow up, please.

Re:Reminds me of Project Faustus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700291)

You call this "odd request", the rest of us call it stupid and quite possibly illegal.

Pay for Content (0)

Lotus1618 (548832) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700243)

People rarely want to pay for web content, as we have seen with music and videos on the web. Both of these medias have a low turn out for profit; the same will most likely show true for fiction.

format? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700245)

It seems that there were just too few subscribers to make the format pay

Yeah, I had that problem with the old printed book format too. You think maybe I just suck as a writer?

Re:format? (1)

erroneous (158367) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700495)

Perhaps you do. Certainly the grammar of your post would lend evidence in support of that.

However, Tad Williams is a succesful novel writer and there are more than enough people in the world who enjoy his novels to make his web site a success. The difference between his succesful novels and his failed web site is the marketing, the format and the medium for delivery of his writing, not the quality.

Micropayments (3, Insightful)

colmore (56499) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700257)

OK, I know it's been said a million times before, but we really need micropayments. And $1 paypal donations don't count. It seems like there's a lot of money to be had with micropayments, so why hasn't something started up?

I guess I'm asking an open question. Micropayments have seemed like such a good idea for so long, why hasn't it happened yet?

Re:Micropayments (1)

krypt0nuk (585439) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700332)

This is probably because the econmics don't work. 1000 payments of $1 vs 100 payments of $10, its easy to see what companies would prefer, for every transacation there are the associated costs invovled with authenticating the payment etc. This seems to work ok for charities as the banks offer discounted rates, but it really doesn't seem to work at the moment.

I heard the case for someone like Amazon to run a system for this sort of thing, though. Make quite a good one, large user base, a lot of the mechanisms are in place and there are a lot of readers there! Instead of suggested purchases there could be suggested online subscriptions etc.

Re:Micropayments (1)

boomer_rehfield (579777) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700593)

Couldn't they authenticate the first time, then just tic off the amount until the end of the month and charge you per that amount? (if any) Seems that even a weekly draw would be better than every single time....

Re:Micropayments (3, Insightful)

danheskett (178529) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700338)

Anytime you think: "wow, this would be neat, why hasnt it been done?" there are exactly two answers to choose from:

1. No one with any drive/ambition has thought of it and decided to try it.

2. There is no economic incentive to try.

REally, those are the two reasons any given thing hasnt happened yet.

Re:Micropayments (1)

cyborch (524661) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700343)

Micropayments have seemed like such a good idea for so long, why hasn't it happened yet?

...maybe because we need a good way to make people pay without filling creditcard forms all the time. P3P [w3.org] doesn't really seem like the way to go [slashdot.org]. We need micropayments to be neat and easy, otherwise people won't bother. Filling out a credatcard form today is way too complicated. If I could do that just one time and trust my software to keep it secret and keep it safe, then I would be willing to use micropayments.

Re:Micropayments (1, Informative)

e-gold (36755) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700418)

Micropayments can be done with e-gold, but it's not just one click to do a spend. (If any system were just one click, criminals would probably find a way to steal from the customers of any payment system that tried it, IMO.) While they're possible, stats.e-gold.com shows that micropayments are not popular compared to slightly larger spends.

Micropayments are also very small compared to the average tip tossed into a guitar case, so rather than pay-per-view as a model I'd prefer to see a more-voluntary system spring up, but I'm an idealist. Now that there are tiphat-style interfaces like clicktwocents.com and fastsci.com I think things will improve for us, but I doubt that any micropayments-only system will ever emerge. Nobody wants them enough to make it pay to produce it. Micropayments will always be "just a feature," and one that few people actually use. IMO.

Speaking ONLY for myself!!!

Micropayments don't work for good reason (2)

count0 (28810) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701128)

The cognitive demand for making a decision needs to be commensurate with the decision being made. So having to think about spending a nickel or dime generally isn't worth my time - that financial amount isn't worth thinking about.

The consequence is that the content itself isn't worth thinking about.

Clay Shirky [openp2p.com] argues this point better than I've expressed it here....

Re:Micropayments don't work for good reason (1)

rector (580924) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701356)

Even if the content isn't worth thinking about, you anyway may pay for it. Otherwise, why people by thins which cost a little at all? The problems with micropayments are: 1) very few people have a n account with, say, paypal 2) To use paypal is troublesome. (Just takes to much time for a thing which isn't woth thinking about) 3) Making one relatively big payment directly to the website in order to split it into many micropayments later works only for the sites where you want to make many micropayments. So, the site should have a lot of contenet. Note, that in such a case making a micropayment may be easy. Recall ordering an additional book from amazon.com

Pay Per View Websites (2, Insightful)

Steve Franklin (142698) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700259)

What people fail to remember for some inexplicable reason beyond my ability to comprehend the mass mind, is that *personal* computers were originally developed as a hobby. The open source movement, free access to websites, the whole state of mind of computer hackers (not crackers), they all derives from the mentality of hobbyists, and hobbyists do not like to be charged for something they can do, or think they can do, themselves. Model airplane builders don't run out and buy ready-made kits if they can build them themselves. People who want to profit from the web need to keep this in mind.

This Is Not A Hobby (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700270)


Re:Pay Per View Websites (2)

SimplyCosmic (15296) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700398)

While what you say is true of those of us who build, tinker and play with our home-built computers, the vast majority of computer users paid for someone else to build their machines, and then pay for an ISP like AOL to get them online without much work on their part.

Instead, I suspect the main reasons pay sites don't work involve a combination of the simple fact that when people think "internet" they think "place to get free stuff", along with a lack of interest in the particular product and, of course, the lack of income from web advertisers these days.

Re:Pay Per View Websites (1)

The Asmodeus (18881) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700599)

Um, flawed analogy there.

More and more model airplane builders DO go out and buy ready-made kits that they could build themselves. They are called ARFs (Almost Ready to Fly) or RTF (Ready to Fly). Check out Tower Hobbies listing for them (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0097p.pgm ?CATEGORY=AC).

Re:Pay Per View Websites (2, Insightful)

LES.. (1366) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703283)

the whole state of mind of computer hackers (not crackers), they all derives from the mentality of hobbyists, and hobbyists do not like to be charged for something they can do, or think they can do, themselves.
Consider the open source idea, a project is started, the original author in control, the author is in this for the love of it but opens up source and others contribute giving feedback on a wide range of ideas that are built upon. These are hobbyists.

Tad as a bestseller author started a project where he had an idea, then opened that idea up on the web as an evolving and ongoing concern. He brings in art work from others, he starts a line of dialog with his readers which allows him to get a feel of what people want and where to take the story.

This is not open source, Tad has full ownership of Shadowmarch but it is something wild to experience where your complaints and whines are picked up and answered by a master of his art. When i read Shadowmarch and comment on the story, then have my questions answered in the next episode, it feels like i have griped about the linux kernel then had Linus say "Here you go, have that feature" instead of "Code it yourself".

you forgot to consider that (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700261)

Did you know that slashdot's mum corporation lost yet another sizable amount on the markets yesterday? Looks like slahsdot's not long for this world. No linux company has ever recovered from such a precarious position, ever.

I would like to thank C.L.I.T. for their important work.

Old Joke... (3, Funny)

colmore (56499) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700304)

What's the difference between an internet author and a large pizza?

A large pizza can feed a family of four.

(replace "internet author" with artist, musician, open-source programmer, etc.)

marketing (1)

NickNiel (456061) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700305)

I think it is interesting that he says (in his post online) that insufficient marketing of the online story may have played a part in the low subscription numbers that Shadowmarch got. I, for one, hope that Mr. Williams or another of my favorite authors gives this online publishing gig another chance. I am definitely willing to pay for the quality content of such a site, and wonder if they spent more time getting the word out, they might have more success.

Re:marketing (3, Insightful)

RealisticWeb.com (557454) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700406)

I have to agree. This reminds me of when adcritic.com went out of business. I used to love the site, and I went to it all the time. Then one day *poof* I went and it was out of commision. What troubled me is that they never put out a plea for help! I for one would have payed money for the service, but I was never asked to. I know in this situation, they already had a subscription service, but did they ever bother to put out a red flag? Did they put up a donation link and say "We are running out of money, if we don't get more subscriptions and donations, we are going to have to sell out" ? Did they get thier loyal fans to go tell all of thier chat room buddies to check it out, and give a donation or buy a subscription? It just seems like a waste to me to have a "community" based site, and then not take advantage of it when it's really needed.

Re:marketing (1)

StillNeedMoreCoffee (123989) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702834)

if you go to the adcritic site you get

"The AdAge Group is pleased to announce the aquisition of one of the internets most popular
web stites"

"Advertising professionals will now benefit from the combination of round-the-clock industry news and a vast TV commercial archive.

We will relaunch a new and improved AdCritic in the near future. While we build it, send us an e-mail telling us what you liked and didn't like about AdCritic.

If you are interested in knowing when the new site goes live - please submit your name and email (at right), and we will send you an email inviting you to see the new AdCritic.com before anyone else."

So there is hope that it will be resurrected. It too was one of my favorite browse sites. (Esp some of the European ads)

Re:marketing (2)

arkanes (521690) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700594)

My girlfriend is a HUGE Tad Williams fan (I am also, to a lesser degree) and she hadn't heard of this at all until a couple months ago when I stumbled across it. She also spends even more time on the internet than I do. Better/more marketing would have helped alot (although I'm not really sure what they could have done, or what they did for that matter).

Re:marketing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3702209)

If she was a HUGE Tad Williams fan, she would have seen a mention of Shadowmarch in the front of Sea of Silver Light, his most recent novel.

And yes, the community, from the beginning, spread the word to all of their friends on message boards, in real life, everywhere. The community has always been very supportive, and Tad has always been very appreciative of that support.

Why cant people (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700308)

just do this stuff for a joke. I mean, the thing is, no-ones going to pay for a site like Slashdot or Kuro5hin - why would you? Its just talking shit about stuff that happens - like what you do in real life, for free, or in Usenet.

Advertising?!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700320)

If they got more press on this or some advertising I thikn it would have done ALOT better. When Steven King put out his net only stories there was a big fanfaire and new stories on it.

Hi there! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700336)

Basic reproductive behavior

Horses, like most animals, depend on the sense of smell to signify the readiness of a female for an encounter. The stallion will approach the mare from behind and make a squealing noise...if the mare is in heat she will "wink" her pussy and squirt a few short squirts of urine. The stallion will have to approach her several times (unless shes a real slut) before she will acquiesse. The mare will often prove ecalcitrant for some time, even threatening to kick the stallion. As he squeals and nips her however, with time, she becomes acquiessent and allows him to mount her and complete the union.

The Stallion

A full grown stallion's cock, when fully erect, will measure some two to three feet long. It can be three to six inches thick at the base, to about
two inches thick at the head. Horses are somewhat different from other animals in the way their cock head works. When a horse is fully erect and excited and ready to mount, his cock head is somewhat pointed and not as thick as might be normally observed. This is to acillatate an easier entry into the mare. After the horse has entered and reaches a climax the
head swells (though it is more spongy then hard) into a fist sized mass as he ejacultates. It is thought that this serves as a plug to force the
semen deep into the mare rather then allowing it to leak out. A full grown stallion can ejaculate about one cup ( 8 ounces ) of semen. It will take
quite a few spurts to accomplish this. Each time his tail will raise and lower in a brief flick. The first few jets are of a thin to average
consistency of cum. The final few jets are of a thick gelatinous substance... it is thought that this serves to "seal" the mares pussy so that the semen has time to do it's thing before leaking out. Horse semen is extremely viscous, if you touch your finger to a pool of it you can draw
a thin string of it five to six feet long! Horse cum has a nice flat taste to it...not at all bitter like man's cum. You can easily drink cups of it with no discomfort.

The Mare - how to do it.

Mares can be quite satisfactory for the average well endowed male. If you are somewhat less developed you might find better pleasure with a pony or Miniature Horse. These are also better as they are lower to the ground. A pony you can fuck standing up. A miniature horse on your knees or squatting depending on the size. A mare will require something to stand on or "platform shoes"...(IE mini stilts to raise you a foot off the ground) so that you can reach her pussy.
Fucking any horse will depend on the horse. Some will be ready right away...some will take coaxing. Pet the animal, talk to it softly, spend
time with it gaining it's trust. If something you are doing upsets it then don't force it. Talk to it and calm it. If you work slowly you can make an animal accept anything. It is just a question of helping it overcome it's fears. All animals fear man if raised in the wild. How any animal reacts will depend on it's own experiences. If you haved raised the animal yourself in a loving enviroment, then you should have no problem associating with it, if it is a strange animal that you have met in the wild then you will have to go through an extended "courtship" to learn how to respond to the beast.


When the filly reaches weaning age, seperate her from her dam. If you have limited time to spend then she should be put to pasture. If you have
plenty of time then you should keep her in a stall. Spend time with her during the day petting and grooming her and allow her some time to run free. Limit her access to other horses though and see that she spends at least 8-12 hours a day in the stall. (Start with more free time and as she approaches her first birthday confine her more...she is now at the right age and her confinement will have made her so bored that she is amenable to any new experience so long as it is not unpleasant)Young fillys have no
objection to someone playing with their pussy's. I have walked up on a pen full of strange fillys at night and they came right up to me and I petted
them and felt up their pussys and they just lifted their tales and seemed to enjoy it. These fillys didn't even know me but they were young,
inexperienced and bored...also since they were penned they were used to the presence of people and did not fear me. Most horses in a large pasture will run when they scent a strange human in their pasture at night. If you sit on the ground and wait patiently, they will get downwind of you and snort and fret, but eventually they will get curious and come closer...you must wait until they have come close enough to smell and touch you before saying anything or moving. Even then speak softly and move VERY slowly so as not to spook them. If you can feed the horses and let them smell you during the day on several occaisons then they will remember you and come to you more readily when you appear in the middle of the night. Also if you are seducing strange horses you should bring them food. This
is a good way to start a relationship. Wild mares or those that have been artificially inseminated are usually reluctant to have sex. The wild ones are used to violent horsecock and the others have had peoples arms in their cunts so they can be apprehensive about sexual events. Start rubbing, scratching, etc in different areas and observe the mare to see what she likes...almost all horses enjoy being scratched under the chin and across the withers. Play with the horse until
it is comfortable with you and as you stroke it slowly move toward it's hind end. Scratch her rump and around her tale and the move down her hind legs. If she reacts to this well she might raise her tail somewhat...gently rub her pussy and see how she reacts...if she doesn't get
violent then spit on your fingers and rub a couple of them through her snatch...if she doesn't try to kick you then she is probably ready to fuck. Note on horses and getting kicked.... Standing directly in front of a horse
is hazardous as it can raise on it's hind legs and come down with a front hoof on your head. Standing 3-6 feet behind a horse is hazardous as it has range to wind up and kick you a good one with the hind legs. Standing beside a horse is fairly safe. It can only stomp on your toes which can be avoided...standing behind a horse is safe if you are no farther then a foot from it's rump..you are so close that the horse can't develop a full swing and cannot kick you hard. If the horse can move forward you might fall
into range so try to tie up or use a stall or something so the animal cannot pull away into striking range. If you make a good relationship
however the above is unnecessary though. I have had mare that welcomed me...pushed back every time I shoved, and contracted her cunt to milk my
cock dry. Horses are some of the best pussy I have ever tried! And I have tried plenty of PEOPLE & ANIMALS! Also horses are easily trainable! As long as you make sure they enjoy what is happening and don't force them or get angry with them if they misunderstand what you want of them, they will love you always. Above all try to understand what they like and do it to
them....by doing whatever, to make them happy, they will respond by granting you greater freedoms. Once you have succesfully fucked a filly a few times she will be used to it and look forward to your visits so long as you give her the attention she desires. You must experiment and treat her as a lover and see what turns her on. Treat her as she wants and she will give you all.

The Stallion

A stallion is is one of the most proudest, powerful, masculine, things there is. All stallions are very oral and like to nibble and bite on anything available. This can be annoying and painful and they should be trained against it at a early age or else you should wear a padded suit, so that they can bite you painlessly. This might be considered as a horse that allows itself to be bitten without reacting is signalling that it is sexually receptive. Stallions that have succesfully coupled in the wild are somewhat resistant from seduction by humans. If they are isolated, tempted and trained, then they will become more acquiessent but the best ones are those that have been raised in a human enviroment since weaning, since they have not had sex with other horses they are more amenable to having sex with humans when their hormones kick in and they are looking for some release. Bringing a wild horse to orgasm can be more difficult. They
are used to a mares pussy which is several degrees hotter then a humans body heat. A person could fuck or suck them and not bring them to the
point of orgasm unless they had been isolated and deprived and unable to help but cut loose with a load. Stallions can be readily trained though.
Most stud farms use artificial insemination, the stallions are aroused by the scent of mares in heat and then an artificial vagina filled with warm water is slipped over their cock and they reach orgasm. The stallions soon learn the routine and just be leading them into the proper barn they know what is coming and obtain an erection. This can work for you too. By coming repeatedly to a horse and arousing him he will become trained to see you as a sexual object. Soon just your presence will give him a throbbing

Arousing the Stallion

Stallions are aroused by the smell of horse pussy above all else. If you have access to a mare, then gentle her till she will let you finger her...then coat your fingers with her juice. Now rub your fingers across the stallions nose! He will react even if she is not in heat! He knows
the smell! I have done this to geldings! Horses that have been castrated and they still got a hardon!!! Also pet & rub the horse and rub his
cock...don't pull on it hard.. be gentle...big as it is it is still tender! If you rub his belly and sheath slowly and gently and let him smell some horse pussy juice then he will erect. If you can find a horse in heat then grab some urine and refrigerate it. Take some out and thaw it when you want it. Rubbing some hot mare piss on a stallions nose will make him horny as hell! He will be all over you! Once a stallion smells that he doesn't care what he fucks! He just wants a hot hole. Make sure there are no other horses around...otherwise he will jump them
instead of you! Some horses have been trained too react to certain cues, others react to their own natural cues...I remember a $1,000,000.00 Arabian stallion I trained.. He stuck his tounge out about 1/2 inch...when someone would rub this small crescent he would instantly get a raging hardon...more proof that stallions are very oral. This stallion had never had sex with a mare...he had only climaxed through the intervention of humans and was quite happy with having sex in a artificial vagina with the help of humans...training does wonders.

NOONE SHOULD ATTEMPT VAGINAL OR ANAL INTERCOURSE WITH A STALLION unless they have are experienced in fist fucking or have taken a large dog in to the max ( IE knot and all). A horse has an enormus cock and could do serious damage to someone who is not prepared. A horse cock can easily grow as big as the knot in a large dogs cock so if you can't take that in then you aren't ready. PS. A large dog can stretch you where a horse can fit if you make the switch before the hole shrivels.

Country boys - you know where the animals are and how to get them...you don't need to read this.

City Boys - Drive out to the suburbs and find some isolated horses.. try to encounter them in the day and get them used to you then return at night to have some fun. IF there are stables around then spend some time there.
Sign up for riding lessons or whatever and then kindof fade out and help groom the horses and clean the stalls. Chances or whoever runs the scene will be glad for the help and won't question your prescence there. You can help run the show by day and return for sex at night. Just be careful, there is less privacy in the city as compared to the country. You sure don't want to be caught!

New animals on the block!!

We now have miniature donkeys and horses as well as the larger ponys to play with!

These animals reach a maximum of about 200 pounds for the purebreeds and somewhat larger for the crossbreeds. You can buy or breed an animal just
for your size specifications! Male and female animals made to order.
Miniatures are currently selling (dec. 1991) for $300 to $3000 depending on pedigree. Anyone can find a horse their size. Support and promote these animals. They are salvation to us all. The mares are tight and the stallions are all sizes...one can be found to fit any hole.

money money money (3, Interesting)

squaretorus (459130) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700349)

This kind of stuff leaves me cold as a dead goose - so I can't judge the quality of it. But lets assume the quality is:

a: BAD
Then it deserves to fail because lifes too short for bad ANYTHING. Just because you have a funky new delivery mechanism doesn't make the product better.

See a

Then those people who read it should have shouted about it more - and persuaded more of their network to start paying for it too. As a kid at school (in Scotland) I started buying Batman comics in town. When I told my friends they started buying batman comics. They werent available in the mainstream newsagents at the time - so you had to go into the spooky comic shop with the stinky dudes. About 10 years later the guy that worked there told me that we collectively bought about 100 comics a month from him - from zero to 100 in 2 months in fact. Now that didn't make DC any more money -but it helped him! His little comic shop was selling 100 more comics a month.
The point? I dont know. People have to hear of something to know they want it enough to part with the money!

Then he'll make more money doing it on paper and good luck to him!

Yeah right!

Re:money money money (3, Insightful)

Aanallein (556209) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701849)

d: EXCELLENT Then he'll make more money doing it on paper and good luck to him!
He will. He's one of the most popular authors of quality fantasy (as opposed to the kind written by the likes of Goodkind), and any book with his name on the cover is almost guaranteed to sell very well.
It was a certainty way from the start that Shadowmarch would never make anywhere near the amount of money he makes with his books. So Tad was writing War of the Flowers (or whatever it will be renamed to if he finds a title he likes better) for money, and Shadowmarch as an experiment of how things could be.

Shadowmarch was never started for the money; yet unfortunately it has failed (in part) because of it.

And that is a damned shame. Because Shadowmarch was indeed an experiment of how positive things could be. There was no publisher involved; it was just Tad and a few friends who set up and took care of everything - publishing the episodes in plain HTML to guarantee readability (even 20 years down the road), thus making it possible to grep through those episodes looking for references you'd missed before.

Beyond this, the reason for the project, Tad wanted more immediate reader feedback; what did we like, what did we want to know more about, which clues did we pick up? Before Shadowmarch he only got feedback starting close to a year after finishing a book; by which time he'd long since moved on to the next work.
Yet with Shadowmarch, feedback was constant and immediate. And as a reader, this was awesome beyond belief; I'd gladly have paid a lot more than the price of a hardcover (rather than quite a bit less as was the case now) just to be able to see our comments have a noticable influence on the story; to see the world evolve before our very eyes.
Shadowmarch will go on. We'll see more of the world in the three books DAW will be publishing [penguinputnam.com], and the website with its awesome community will continue to exist as well. Yet the awesome experience of this project has not managed to survive, and I fear that means a very real end to my hopes for the future of 'epublishing.'

Re:money money money (2, Insightful)

LES.. (1366) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703026)

I personally would go for 'e' but objectively it would have to be 'd'

I would also like to point out that inspite of the story coming to a conclusion in August there is still much to be gained form subscribing even now.

You will get to read 30 or 31 chapters of an excelent fantasy story, access to some fantastic art and delve into the rich lore of a great fantasy world.

Not bi-monthly. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700362)

...heavy load placed on Tad by writing two episodes a month...

Twice per month is semi-monthly not bi-monthly.

Bi-monthly is every two months.

Re:Not bi-monthly. (3, Informative)

AdamJ (28538) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700575)

Bi-monthly and semi-monthly are synonymous in modern English. According to dictionary.com:

bimonthly (b-mnthl)

1. Happening every two months.
2. Happening twice a month; semimonthly.


1. Once every two months.
2. Twice a month; semimonthly.

However, it also says:

"Usage Note: Bimonthly and biweekly mean "once every two months" and "once every two weeks." For "twice a month" and "twice a week," the words semimonthly and semiweekly should be used. Since there is a great deal of confusion over the distinction, a writer is well advised to substitute expressions like every two months or twice a month where possible. However, each noun form has only one sense in the publishing world. Thus, a bimonthly is published every two months, and a biweekly every two weeks."

dictionary.com reference [dictionary.com]

Re:Not bi-monthly. (2)

David Kennedy (128669) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701638)

[bi-monthly vs semi-monthly]

I originally wanted to protest that bi-monthly does not mean "twice a month" in any way - but checking the various dictionaries (even the OED) and alt.usage.english I'm amazed to find the above is correct. Weird, because here [Northern Ireland] bi-monthly/bi-weekly etc
means "every two months/weeks". I work in a USAn company and the meaning is retained there too.

For "semi-monthly" and the shorter sense of "bi-monthly" the common UK term is "fortnight".

Sorry, can't resist off-topic language wrangles...

subscriptions (2)

paradesign (561561) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700389)

subscriptions people are willing to pay for...

video pr0n,
fetish pr0n...
(*) pr0n,

whos going to pay for a book on the net if its not pr0n?

btw, book people are generally not that computer literate. i mean sure they can use email and sht but they generally dont spend the time to read of of a website when they can go and buy a book to cozy up to. especially since the book they can put on their shelf and display when their finnished. but this is a whole other can of worms.

Re:subscriptions (4, Insightful)

AdamJ (28538) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700534)

btw, book people are generally not that computer literate. i mean sure they can use email and sht but they generally dont spend the time to read of of a website when they can go and buy a book to cozy up to. especially since the book they can put on their shelf and display when their finnished. but this is a whole other can of worms.

I think you're completely confusing two things here. Computer literacy has nothing to do with why many people prefer a proper book to reading on a computer. I'm extremely computer literate, but I don't exact relish curling up in my bed with the Athlon, nor do I want to be reading e-books during a RPG session.

Lose the "btw, book people are generally not that computer literate. i mean sure they can use email and sht" and you have an interesting point, but claiming that computer illiteracy is one reason that e-books haven't caught on dilutes it.

Re:subscriptions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3703588)

I think e-books will become significantly more popular once "digital ink" or "digital paper" (whatever they're calling it these days -- the stuff that you can paint over a sheet of paper, lay the paper on top of an electrode "pixel" mesh, and then cause to turn black or white or colorful by charging the mesh) becomes economical to produce. I personally can envision a digital scroll -- like the archaic kind of scroll with two rods and paper suspended between them -- where one end is the processor and controls (twist the end to scroll the text, maybe a trackball and stylus-based text entry panel to allow for complex functions like searching), and the other end is the "drive" (either an HD, or "memory sticks", or both) and battery case; the display would be digital paper attached to some kind of heavy cloth (to prevent tearing). And when you weren't using it, the paper would roll up into one of the cylinders, and you could drop it in your bag, or possibly even your pocket. I think such a device would be quite nice.

Auros, S'march subscriber.

Re:subscriptions (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3703409)

you know, if labeling me an anonymous coward looks like a cool thing, because I don't want to share my email address to get another wonderful website "update" or to have my surfing habits tracked through my domain, I'm okay with that. I like being a coward actually, even though friends just call me Raven.:)

listen, I'm at a computer 40+ hours a week, doing graphic design and website related work, and I own more than 500 books, most hard covers, and read a LOT, so i don't buy the argument that "book people" are not that computer literate. I have no problem with e-books, in fact I own upwards of 20 e-books already (with more to be bought in the future) this was an amazing attempt at creating more than just an online story, for those that haven't even been to the site before now, you've missed a lot of quality art done exclusively for the site, short stories, as well as maps, and 2 or 3 collaborative online stories written by Msg. board members that I would have gladly paid for as well. It's fairly simple to categorize and talk blindly about a subject. It's far more complicated to invest your time into doing research on something you are going to have an opinion about. which, after reading almost every post on this matter here, I am convinced hardly any of you took the time to do. please don't use labels or stereotype something you know nothing about, some people would call that misrepresentation, and you don't look too bright when you do that. It's one thing to actually be INTO a large amount of hobbies and follow them, but to put up a pretense of being diversified in your interests by only skimming the surface of certain things, is just being shallow.

Notice I am not attacking anyone here, just stating that you should use a more informed opinion when discussing matters about which you don't have that much knowledge about previously.

Let's bear in mind (3, Insightful)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700448)

That Tad - by his own admission [] - isn't that hot on writing to a schedule. And I agree with him on this; when left to his own devices, he produces seriously high quality work. When the deadlines kick in, he becomes much more generic and (dare I say it?) can border on the mediocre.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy his work, I just think this ticking-clock scheme was a bad idea for his style of uncompromising "it's done when it's done" creativity.

Re:Let's bear in mind (2, Informative)

lloer (585460) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700510)

The other problem that Tad mentioned, of course, is that it also meant he was neglecting the work that WAS going to put food on the table. I like Shadowmarch and one good thing is that the community that has grown around it is going to continue. Lloer

An insight into "information wants to be free" (3, Insightful)

dinotrac (18304) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700456)

First, congratulations to Tad for finding someone to publish ShadowMarch. I've not read the installments, but getting someone to foot your bills so that you can write is a good thing.

this may be a small insight to those who believe that "free as in beer" is what all entertainment should be. I remember a gazillion posts on why it's ok to simply take music et al without concern for whether the artist gets paid. Two common threads that I can recall were:

1. We don't want to pay those stinkin' middlemen record companies and publishers.
2. Hey, creators create. There is and always will be plenty of stuff.

I have to agree with 1. I don't want to pay those stinkin' middlement record companies and publishers either. They really are a nasty bunch of thieves. OTOH, they will get people to pay for Tad's work and let him pay a few bills. The publishers make the fotune, but Tad can write without doing in the family.

2 is problematic. It seems to presume either that the most artists have no concern for the material world -- no desire for family, home, lights turned on, etc -- or that all art is equal and that every Joe down the street can write or sing with the very best of them. Such people should spend a weekend tied down in front of a constant stream of Suddenly Susan episodes. It isn't true of programmers and it isn't true of artists.

Re:An insight into "information wants to be free" (2)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702045)

Uh, dinotrac what in the heck are you talking about? Tad William's ShadowMarch was never about Free as in Beer. It was available in an unencrypted format, but to read past the first few chapters you had to pay the equivalent of a hardback novel. Oh, and you got the added pleasure of having to wait for the next chapter to come out. Personally I don't like to read that way. I was considering purchasing a subscription after he had "finished" the first novel (so I could read it all the way through), but now I suppose I will just have to wait until it is out in paperback.

I am a huge Tad Williams fan, but he simply can't compete with the folks over at www.baen.com. They have entire books available for sampling, in a wide variety of open formats. If you decide you would like to purchase one of their novels they are approximately $4 each and are available in bundles of four for $10. These folks have almost got me completely transitioned over to reading on my Visor Handspring.

There are plenty of people that don't mind paying for music and books, but they aren't interested in paying $20 for a book that may or may not ever get finished and that is released in installments.

Re:An insight into "information wants to be free" (2)

dinotrac (18304) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703467)

I can understand your confusion as I was jumping from one place to another.

Conceptually, though, the principle is the same.
He has bills to pay and so he can not justify the time and effort to continue what he has been doing.

Same with folks who do things for free:
The need to make a living will tend to limit the time most people can devote. A few are not encumbered by the material world, but lots of potentially good stuff won't get made if people can't get paid.

It is the writing (-1)

Commienst (102745) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700457)

"Episode Four
Songs of the Moon and Stars

Young Flint doesn't seem very taken with the turnip porridge, even though it is sweetened with honey. Well, Chert thinks, perhaps it's a mistake to expect one of the big folk to be feel the same way about root vegetables as we do. Since Opal has gone off to the vent of warm subterranean air behind Old Quarry Square to air the clothes she has washed, he takes pity on the lad and removes the bowl.

"You don't need to finish," he says. "We're going out, you and I."

The boy looks at him, neither interested nor disinterested. "Where?"

"The castle -- the inner keep."

Something moves across the child's face but he only rises easily from the low stool and trots out the door before Chert has gathered up his own things. Although he has only come down Wedge Road for the first time the night before, the boy turns unhesitatingly to the left. Chert is impressed with his memory. "You'd be right if we were going up, lad, but we're not. We're taking Funderling roads." The boy looks at him questioningly. "Going through the tunnels. It's faster for the way we're going. Besides, last night I wanted to show you a bit of what was aboveground -- now you get to see a bit more of what's down here."

They stroll down to the bottom of Wedge Road then along Beetle Way to Ore Street, which is wide and busy, full of carts and teams of diggers and cutters on their way to various tasks, peddlers bringing produce down from the markets in the castle above, honers and polishers crying their trades, and tribes of children on their way to guild schools. The day-lanterns are lit everywhere, and in a few places raw autumn sunlight streams down through holes in the great roof, turning the streets golden."

Enough said.

Free fiction? (1, Offtopic)

Pembers (250842) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700517)

This is probably offtopic (it's certainly shameless self-promotion), but if you're looking for a story to read, you might like the one linked to in my .sig.

It's a shame that Mr Williams has decided not to continue this experiment, but I see from other comments that I'm not the only person who'd never heard of it. Granted, I've never read any of his work in print, either. Maybe if I'd already been interested in him, I'd have discovered Shadowmarch that way.

I think that if authors want to earn a living through web publishing, they need to stop looking at everyone who downloads and doesn't pay as a lost sale. (Insert usual Slashdot rhetoric about uncopyable bits and non-wet water.) The author's promise shouldn't be "I'll release the next installment if 75% of you pay for this one." It should be something like "I'll release the next installment if I make at least $5,000 on this one."

The shareware model could work here. Release the first few installments for free and charge for the rest. Shareware authors don't care that the free versions of their programs are all over the net - in fact, that's just what they want. It builds awareness of the software and saves on their bandwidth bills. Most of them have accepted that the important thing is the number of people who buy the program, not the number of people who don't.

OK, Shadowmarch was a kind of try-before-you-buy, which is one of the main ideas of shareware. It didn't make money. But then, not all shareware makes money. For that matter, not all printed books make money, either.

BLAH! who gives a fuck (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700519)

BLAH! who gives a fuck

Hobbyists vs. Pros... and why both fail. (3, Insightful)

2Flower (216318) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700560)

Online publishing isn't always intended to be one's primary source of revenue. I think this example and the Stephen King experiments show that at least for now, we don't have a workable system that will allow someone to live off what they're writing online. (Closest I've seen are extremely popular webcomics like Penny and 8-bit, but they also have side businesses and advertising and sometimes don't meet their goals.) It's not time for pro writing online yet. I have faith that a workable formula will be found, but until then, it's not a bet I'd wanna take.

For folks like me who are just publishing because they like to write and something compells them so that they HAVE to write, with the end result being freely available, it's much easier. I've got a day job that pays the bills so I can come home and write. Works pretty well in terms of keeping me in the black...

The problem then becomes 'Death by Popularity'. As much as we love the internet as a bastion of free speech and free expression and so on and so forth, bandwidth is decidedly NOT free. The slashdot effect can pretty much wipe out your website -- and then your ISP will cheerfully charge you for all that traffic brought on by thousands of happy readers enjoying your work.

Even pro sites and webcomics have this problem, where they start small, get popular, and get crushed by bandwidth costs from so many people simply digging their stuff. It's even worse for aspiring independent bands; the RIAA can afford to pipe thousands of MP3s off a website (even if they don't wanna), but Joe Q. Guitar Player might not be able to.

I really hope someone comes up with a technology or a revnue model that works. I'll keep writing regardless of whether or not it turns a penny, but it'd be one less headache if I didn't have to worry about my work costing me an arm and a leg to get out there.

Obligatory whoring plug for said work: Unreal Estate [pixelscapes.com], a scifi comedy. It's got open source reality innit. Whee! Now let's see if it survives the link being posted to slashdot. (Probably will since nobody reads comments, right? *EL WINK*)

Re:Hobbyists vs. Pros... and why both fail. (2)

Glock27 (446276) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701422)

I think this example and the Stephen King experiments show that at least for now, we don't have a workable system that will allow someone to live off what they're writing online.

Not true, check out Fictionwise [fictionwise.com], which claims to be profitable. I think one key is that the content cost less than a dead-tree book would, but Fictionwise actually charges as much and gets away with it. I'm hoping to publish some content there if I can write something that doesn't suck. ;-)

I think the thing that most hurt William's efforts was the $17.99 price tag. That was too steep.

Nasty truths (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700662)

As a long-time writer of both fiction and technical non-fiction, I'm not the least surprised by this event. Why?

People are cheap and are very hesitant to pay for anything they can get for free, especially when it comes to intangibles like IP.

People have remarkably low standards. Yes, you can find the experts who know the difference between quality writing and journalism and the steaming plate of moose turds that constitutes 99% of the net's content, but those people are a very, very small minority.

The overwhelming number of people on the net simply don't care enough about online fiction to make an effort to support it. Their lives are full of far more important details, so they perceive that issues like online writing, the freedom of software, etc. aren't worth their time. (Whether they're right in that judgment in all cases is another issue; the point is that's how they feel so that's how they act.)

Dreadful stuff (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3700692)

I skimmed some of the episodes. This is dreadful stuff, an uninspired pastiche that looks like a soulless rehash of dungeons & dragons and Lord of the Rings.

To add ./ insult to /. injury... (2)

teamhasnoi (554944) | more than 11 years ago | (#3700780)

If it wasn't bad enough that he had to close down his site for lack of traffic and subscribers, now we send 10,000 people over there to gloat over the corpse.

*licks lips, rubs hands. "Brainsss..."

Re:To add ./ insult to /. injury... (1)

Cap'n Q (67443) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702049)

If it wasn't bad enough that he had to close down his site for lack of traffic and subscribers Except for the fact that they intend to keep the site online despite it losing money. The last of the bimonthly Episodes will appear in August; after that, the plan is to continue adding background material, art, etc.

Well I kicked in my 2 cents (2, Interesting)

StillNeedMoreCoffee (123989) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701084)

I for one would like to see that model work. Eliminating the publisher, the distributer, the store. Writers and artists get only a small fraction of the money generated by their efforts. Some of that goes to the hawking of the work and the sails.. a creative specialty in its own right, but not one I see as as worthy as that of the creative worker. A necesarry evil maybe like lawyers.

I have an artist friend that signed an exclusive contract with a gallery, then they chose only about 10% of her work and gave her maybe 10 pct of the sale price. Fortunetly she had a job teaching at the Art Institue of Chicago and was able to let the contract run out and still eat. She was new to this country and creative distribution system, not new to art.

And they talk about us foolish Americans

Well I just subscribed to Tad's site. I support the idea of his trying to get direct support for his work if not for the value given from the work itself (we are at a bootstrap point in this model).

Here is an opportunity for someone to put up a site for these types of efforts to help get exposure and marketing. Well that will work until someone sees the profit of it then starts to squeeze. But maybe there will be a breif period when things work like they should, like early Greece or early Internet maybe.

I love Tad's work but (2)

Archfeld (6757) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701257)

this was a doomed idea from day one. Subscription to read a book...yeah right...Is a good thing Tad employs a business manager to take care of most of his finances. I am sorry but 8$ for a book is one thing, to pay monthly to read a new installment, this is not the 40's and this is not radio, and even IT was FREE. Somewhere some fool convinced the ad companies that banner ads work, that guy is a genius, and the ad companies are blind morons. I can honestly say I HAVE NEVER clinked thru a banner. If it is interesting enough I might, on my own go try a url BUT I refuse to use banners or pop-ups. I know I am not alone in this methodology.

Re:I love Tad's work but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3702350)

Who said anything about paying monthly?

Subscribing to Shadowmarch is $14.95 for a *year*. That's an incredibly good deal.

Re:I love Tad's work but (2)

Tiroth (95112) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703079)

Is it really? New hardcovers generally run about $22.50 on sale. They contain the equivilent of perhaps two years of Shadowmarch, and when all is said and done you own a physical, quality book.

Please bear in mind that I am a Shadowmarch suscriber, but I joined less because of the 'deal' than out of my desire to
a) show support for Tad Williams
b) show support of community-funded material

If it doesn't work for _famous_ authors... (1)

SubMissionary (585480) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701482)

...does it work for unknowns? I have considered the payment scheme of many content sites, and thought that the MLM style might benefit an aspiring author (artist, musician, proctologist)... For istance, you subscribe, and bring 5 people with you, each of whom subscribe. They can only subscribe if they have an authorization from a member (which a person could get simply by clicking on a _Give Me a Member_ link). If you get enough people under you, the author shares his wealth with you. Dunno, just a thought. If you think the idea has merit, check out my [Shameless] Story [chaoschash.com] [Plug]. I currenlty have the bandwidth of a mouse sphincter, but as someone mentioned earlier, comments shouldn't nearly get /.ed, right? [Shoots self in head]

Re:If it doesn't work for _famous_ authors... (1)

StillNeedMoreCoffee (123989) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702343)

And you could sell detergent and cosmetics and maybe a personal improvement seminar....Can you say pyramid scheme..

(OT) Bad link (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#3702721)

chaoschash.com doesn't seem to exist, according to whois... did you mean chaoscrash.com? (That one doesn't turn up a match, either)

Annoying payment methods (2)

ErfC (127418) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701634)

I read the free introductory stuff on this site, and it was excellent. Resulted in my buying other Tad Williams novels, because I like the style and his writing ability in general. And the Shadowmarch site has all kinds of background information, really nice artwork, forums, etc, that do add a lot to the story.

THe only reason I didn't subscribe was because I didn't like the payment method. I can't even remember what it was, but I think it was PayPal only when I tried. (It was also hard to get at the "payment methods" screen -- I had to set up a login first.) It may be different now, but I never bothered going back.

It's just so much easier to go out and buy a book, I guess. :( Too bad, because it's a really good story and a very interesting project. And now people will say "look, online publishing doesn't work!" when it might (might) be a logistical issue.

Why I didn't subscribe -- it's not the model... (2)

Silverhammer (13644) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701845)

Everyone is talking about the lack of advertising or the flawed subscription model, and that's fine, but I don't think that's the WHOLE story.

I think a lot of people didn't buy into Shadowmarch simply because they were tired of Tad Williams' work. And when I say tired, I mean exhausted. Williams' is infamous for his 3000+ page epics that are chock full of characters and locales but very little actual plot. It happened with 'Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn' and it happened with 'Otherland', and there was every indication it was happening again with 'Shadowmarch'.

Some people may enjoy that style of writing, but after the first two series I'd had enough. That's why I didn't subscribe.

present tense (0, Flamebait)

ZINGYWINGY (576410) | more than 11 years ago | (#3701908)

This novel is written in the present tense. If I were this author, I wouldn't do this -- it's gimmicky and will not make the novel any better. Dune's just written in plain old past tense, yet this is one of the greatest works of Sci-Fi/Fantasy ever created. By writing in the present tense, you are not starting a revolution in literature. It's been thought of before. You're not the first.

Just write it in the past tense like everybody else. Instead, put in the time and effort to research medieval civilization and folklore, and if you have already done this research, do more. How much do you really know about Feudalism? Ever read about the Greek legend of the Erinyes? Only hard work, not gimmicks, makes for good writing. Not to mention a good amount of time just spent sitting and thinking -- without that, your thoughts (and writing) will just end up a jumble.

And finally: if you write a truly good novel, it won't matter whether it's on a website, in a book, or engraved on stone tablets. People will flock to read it. Though will they pay? I've often wondered why no one ever thought to implement an "unselectable" tag. Put it around your text

This is my intellectual property

And the browser doesn't let you select that text for a copy-and-paste operation. I guess they could always take a series of screenshots, but the idea is to make it harder, since you can't make it impossible.

Re:present tense (2)

Aanallein (556209) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702301)

This novel is written in the present tense. If I were this author, I wouldn't do this -- it's gimmicky and will not make the novel any better.
Writing in the present tense is not 'gimicky' - it's a tool. One of many which good authors can use. The major reason it's been used so little in the past is because editors tend not to like it; after all, it's been used very little, and it might scare away customers...
But again, writing in the present tense is merely a tool; like writing from the first person point of view, or in the future tense (see David Brin's "Kiln People") - in this case, writing present tense was a very appropriate tool - it added a sense of immediacy to the story that went very well with the episodes being written right this very moment.
Dune's just written in plain old past tense, yet this is one of the greatest works of Sci-Fi/Fantasy ever created.
Shakespeare wrote with pen and 'paper'. Following your line of reasoning this would mean...?
Just write it in the past tense like everybody else.
Just use M$ Windows like everybody else.
the idea is to make it harder, since you can't make it impossible.
Luckily Tad never bought into that stupid idea. The story is just plain HTML - and we the readers can do anything we like with it; which is extremely useful. You have no idea how good it is to be able to grep through all those episodes looking for specific references. And as Eric Flint [baen.com] has shown, 'piracy' in this field does not harm authors.

Re:present tense (1)

ZINGYWINGY (576410) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702915)

I guess I deserve this because I rushed through this post and didn't clarify. This is slashdot, so if you want to say something you had better make sure your case is rock-solid.

First of all, writing in the present tense might not always be a gimmick, but in this case it certainly appears to be. That needed clarification.

However, I don't understand how your "pen and paper" comment is a counter to my statement about Dune. Your comment seems not to follow. Shakespeare wrote well, regardless of what he wrote on. To succeed as a writer you must write well, which entails a lot more than just putting everything in the present tense.

Use M$ windows? Sure, if you're a writer, use M$ windows, use a quill pen, whatever -- just please write well! How much simpler could my message be?

As far as the "unselectable" tag, hey, you don't want to use it -- don't! I don't care. The main message of my post is still that good writing takes a lot of work and thought. Specifically, I thought that from reading just a few paragraphs of this novel that the present tense did not mesh well at all with the type of narrative or the writing style. There may be other types of writing (for example, perhaps avant-gard or stream-of-consciousness) for which this is better suited, however here it comes across as if you had a perfectly good past-tense traditional narrative, and somebody decided at the last minute to just go through and change every "was" to an "is", almost as if they did a search and replace. At first glance, it appears not to work well (as a tool). Maybe it gets better later on in the story, I don't know.

I'm sorry if you are a fan of this author. Note that I never actually said (reread my post) that he is a bad author or the novel is a bad novel. All I am saying is that I am getting hit in the face with these present tense verbs where they don't work or fit.

The problems of internet publishing: (1)

CONTROL_ALT_F4 (585063) | more than 11 years ago | (#3702231)

1. Who wants to buy a book that you can't read on "the throne"? (You know what I mean).
2. I doubt an e-book will ever take enough internet audience away from the almighty pr0n.

Another example of the difficulties (2)

NewtonsLaw (409638) | more than 11 years ago | (#3703265)

A perfect example of the difficulties facing online publishers is the fate of Aardvark [aardvark.co.nz] in New Zealand.

This is one of the longest-running online Net-news and commentary publications on the web, having started in 1995 and been published without a break ever since. During that time it has developed an enviable reputation for frankness and insight, and scooping important stories, while attracting an audience that is the "who's who" of the NZ Internet and IT marketplace.

At one time in the late 1990s it was even profitable -- but that was when advertising dollars flowed like water.

Now, despite having a regular readership of around 5,000 people (mainly IT/Net workers and decision-makers) and scoring over 80,000 visits to the front-page every month (not too bad in a country of just 3.8 million people), the crunch point has been reached.

It costs more than $30K a year (mainly the writer/publisher's time) to produce on a daily basis and, given the general downturn in the Net marketplace since 2000, that's a figure which has become hard to justify.

Attempts to generate revenues by soliciting donations produced no more than a few hundred dollars over a period of several months and finding a corporate sponsor appeared impossible. The very blunt and uncompromising nature of the commentaries may well have contributed to this -- after all, who wants to sponsor a publication that will jump all over you if you mess up? :-)

Once it was announced that publication would cease, almost 100 readers came forward and offered to pay a subscription -- but that would still only return an hourly rate of less than $6 (US$3) on the time invested in its writing and publication.

Since late 2000, advertising hasn't been an option. The low prices, cost of soliciting, scheduling, reporting and chasing debtors means that there's no profit to be had even if advertisers can be found.

So, who's going to work for US$3/hr?

Who can afford to work for US$3/hr?

Despite the fact that publishing to the web is a whole lot cheaper than print or broadcast, it's still a difficult medium in which to turn a profit.
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