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Music Industry Staggers While Film Industry Blooms

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the follow-the-money dept.

Movies 461

GLX writes "The LA Times is running an article that explores the idea that while piracy has been the (supposed) bane of the music industry, it has yet to be felt in the video industry..." "Yet to be felt" might be too strong, but DVD sales are booming, and don't seem to be much crimped by illegal copying.

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Eat it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813398)


AC Scum (-1)

News For Turds (580751) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813410)

no. you suck. you cannot have this fp. It now belongs to the CLIT.

Music Industry to... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813400) Funky Dory the "best unknown band"...
no, wait... that was Chris Anstey.

Lies, damn lies and Slashbots (-1)

anonymous cowfart (576665) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813411)

The first poster who makes the usual lie "I have bought much more music because of downloading mp3's from the internet", I swear I'm going to rip his throat open.

Re:Lies, damn lies and Slashbots (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813485)

Well I'm sat at my desk at work surrounded by about a dozen CDs by artists I'd never have discovered if it weren't for online mp3 file swapping. Online music has reignited my interest in music generally, and I'm spending more cash in the music stores as a result.

On the otherhand, I guess my willingness to fork out money is mainly due to the quality of 128kbps mp3s being sufficiently poor that I am prepared to go out and buy the original music. Once the average bandwidth and storage capacity of the home user's PC starts to increase such that the quality differential between your average online music file and the original CD recording disappears, then I reckon I'll no longer bother with record stores and online music retailers.

Presumably in the future, this is going to be a much bigger problem for the movie industry. Currently, very few people have the storage capacity and bandwidth for the swapping of movie files to have a significant impact on the industry, but give it a few more years and your average net punter will have sufficient capacity and patience to wait an hour or two to download a DVD quality video file. I wonder what will happen to DVD sales then...

I've said it before (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813412)

and I'll say it again. The music industry isn't worried about illegal copying for the current market conditions - they're concerned about the future.
At the moment, someone downloads a song, and if they like it, they go out and buy the album. In the future, someone would download a song, and if they like it, download the rest of the album because broadband is normalised.

Movie industry makes sale worthwhile (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813416)

I'd take a DVD over a DivX any day. I like the extra features on them and the quality is noticeably better.

MP3s offer the same quality (almost) as CDs and the music industry has no extra offerings on their discs except a bunch of songs that you haven't heard on the radio, usually with good reason.

Re:Movie industry makes sale worthwhile (1)

RebelTycoon (584591) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813548)

I'll bite.
Some of the best songs that I like the most do not make it to the radio. This includes any of the slower songs (as those types are reserved for Celine Dion, Maria, Madonna, etc.).
CDs really suffer because I can download a song in 10 minutes vs. 8 hours.
The movie industry is safe for a little while longer since their content is so bloody large.

Re:Movie industry makes sale worthwhile (1)

ThogScully (589935) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813557)

Alright, but those songs not on the radio that you like I'm guessing don't have other songs on the radio. I'm assuming you don't mean you like the 8 songs Briney or the latest boy band didn't find worth releasing, but just not the ones they have on the radio.

Re:Movie industry makes sale worthwhile (2)

galaga79 (307346) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813565)

I'd take a DVD over a DivX any day. I like the extra features on them and the quality is noticeably better.

I never understood why people make DivX rips of their DVDs for backup purposes. The loss of features and quality (as you're are technically transcoding) in the conversion process seems to far out weigh the convenience of not getting out of your chair to find that DVD disc.

Mind you I must admit I wouldn't mind a DivX copy of AOTC and/or FOTR to tide me over till the DVD releases later this year, but I am prepared to wait and support films I enjoyed.

Re:Movie industry makes sale worthwhile (5, Insightful)

Wylfing (144940) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813571)

This is a very good point. Mod parent up.

The enormous difference between MPAA and RIAA is that MPAA devised a new format and put it into the market and then let consumers decide whether or not to buy. People opted for DVD on their own [1]. It just so happens that DVDs won't let you make copies, but frankly few people ever make copies of movies (and the movie rental business has proven very successful).

The RIAA on the other hand does not invent a new format. Instead they just go to government and try to get copying ruled illegal, or try to quietly slip copy-resistant CDs into the market (no new features; same quality). If RIAA could come up with a new way to package music with a bunch of new features that just happened to be copy-resistant, well, maybe consumers would opt for it.

[1] The DMCA surely helped the DVD push, but it didn't require anyone to buy them. The market could have opted away from DVD.

Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813417)

hmmmm, bandwidth?

Re:Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813422)

that was my initial thought. that it's a bandwidth issue. but not for long.

Some comparisons ... (5, Insightful)

dzym (544085) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813419)

A music CD ripped to MP3 typically takes somewhere around 60 to 100 megs of space, with individual tracks averaging around 5 megs each--and can be downloaded separately. A movie of good-length typically takes around 600-700 megs in DivX ;-) format, currently the most popular "moviez" format. This cannot be downloaded and subsequently enjoyed in chunks. Pirating movies takes a substantially higher amount of bandwidth per movie than small-time MP3 warezing, and the bulk of the music industry's loss comes from the high amount of 'small-time" MP3 pirating.

Re:Some comparisons ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813442)

Keep in mind that those are projected losses and that many may not buy any of what they download.

Re:Some comparisons ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813453)

I meant to say that many probably wouldn't buy the music they downloaded anyhow.

Multiple transfers (1)

seosamh (158550) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813487)

I've used ftp's reget command to get my .iso fix in the past. Why wouldn't that work for those 700 meg movies?

Re:Multiple transfers (2)

dzym (544085) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813509)

Try watching the movie in sections at the same time. Can't do that.

Again, it's a matter of convenience and practicality.

Re:Multiple transfers (2)

RatFink100 (189508) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813511)

It would - but most movie downloads are via p2p noetworks, usenet or IRC not ftp.

u r teh sux (-1)

News For Turds (580751) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813549)

...but I Agree With This Post

Re:Some comparisons ... (5, Insightful)

R2.0 (532027) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813558)

"the bulk of the music industry's loss comes from the high amount of 'small-time" MP3 pirating."

Beware of assuming the precedent. Your statement about the industries "losses" assumes a tie to sharing over P2P networks, which is a fallacy (or at least an unproven hypothesis)

Attn Hillary Rosen et al:

First prove to me that the losses (if indeed there are any real losses in an industry notorious for cooking its books) are caused definitively by sharing and not by a combination of crappy music and poor management.

Then prove to me that file sharing networks are illegal per se, and not just that the actions of individuals are illegal.

Then prove to me that the industry's distribution plans are not monopolistic and illegal in themselves.

Then you can cross the bridge to the Holy Grail. Until then, argue about the air speed velocity of an unladen african swallow, because it's just about as relevant.

Correction... (1)

Shillo (64681) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813574)

The bulk of the music industry's loss comes from the fact that the offer sucks.

Or to put it different way: for most of the music worth listening, the only two ways to get it are mail order over the Net, or download. And unfortunately, the mail order is not a real option: it involves hassle, and wait, and having a credit card (not standard for your typical target audience). For the music that you can buy in a shop, well... ugh. Most of it isn't worth /downloading/, let alone buying.


usenet rar and par (1)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813587)

way back before we had napster there was this thing called usenet.. there is still such a beast. there large files are broken up into smaller rar archives (normally in 10 and 15 meg chunks). in the last year or so par has creaped up. basically the people packing up the rar archive make a par archive of 'n' files that are the same size as the rar archive. if the rar archive is incomplete it can be recovered using the par archive. the par archive can be used to reconstruct the missing rar files.. up to 'n' of them.

so it's fairly easy to get movies and almost any other information split into useful chunks. alot of movies come with previews so you can see the quality of the movie befor you download the whole thing. you could probably argue that people havn't discovered usenet, but you can get movies just as conveniently using pan or agent.

Warning (2, Funny)

Slashdot's Attorney (588436) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813420)

Slashdot does not condone piracy of music, videos, or software. The above information is presented for entertainment purposes only, and should not be construed as approval of any illegal action.

It's a simple equation (1)

ringbarer (545020) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813428)

The reason the film industry is booming and the music industry is declining is because video files take longer to download.

Give it a few years when everyone has a 10Gbps connection and I predict the collapse of both industries.

Re:It's a simple equation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813455)

Collapse? VHS was supposed to be the downfall of the movie industry and we all know that never happened. Not only did people keep going to theaters (now more than ever), but people buy more DVD's/Videos than ever before.

There will no doubt be a restructuring of the recording industries (music and video), but I have no doubt in my mind that they'll find a way to keep making $$$.

Re:It's a simple equation (1)

RazzleFrog (537054) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813482)

Give it a few years when everyone has a 10Gbps connection

How do you define a few years? 5, 10, 50? Don't hold your breath for speed even near that. As it is, the broadband industry has started raising prices making even getting 1 Mbps cost prohibitive.

It's been said many times before but in order for broadband to take off in the regular consumer market (not you or me) there will have to a real killer ap. DivX is far from being that killer ap.

I have downloaded a few movies but I find renting from Blockbuster a much more worthwhile endeavor. When I rent I still get the high quality video (I don't have HDTV, though) and dolby digital sound. I also get to watch all of the extras that are included in most DVD's (something the music industry rarely does). At the end of the day, the movies I really would like to own aren't (officially) on DVD yet anyway (Star Wars, Indiana Jones)

Re:It's a simple equation (1)

mark_lybarger (199098) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813566)

and 256k is enough for anyone right?

please, 10 years ago, the common home users was on a 2400 baud modem, possibly some had the super high speed 9600 baud modems.. today, the highly outdated modems are 56k, most users prefering DSL and or cable modem. in 10 years i would expect common "bandwidth" to be 10x todays standard of cable modem. we'll need that bandwidth to send live holographic images of ourselves to other places...

My take on it (4, Interesting)

rattler14 (459782) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813429)

IMHO, there is very little difference between mp3 and CD quality. Yes, there are differences, and audiophiles will point this out every time. But the fact is, most users don't care.

Now DVD's vs DIVX. Not only can the quality suck (artifacts all the time), but the sound can be totally out of sync, which is really really annoying. Plus, unlike mp3 CD's which can be played in just about any new CD player, DIVX does not play in standalone DVD players without hacking the hardware.

But, this could change...

Re:My take on it (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813547)

Consensus seems to say the major factors are differences in quality and playback. In addition I posit that the difference in features and even the price of copying (real copying, not converting it to something else) a DVD isn't favorable. With many DVD's running around $15 to $20, with surround sound, subtitles, menuing, and extra features, it just doesn't seem to be worth it to make a dvd-r/ram/rw duplicate, judging from blank dvd media prices at mainstream places like Ciircuit City, which run about $8/disc, $6-$7 for a 3-pack. That's already about 50% of the cost of the actual thing.

CD's are another story... media is cheap, capacity is limited, and aside from the little booklet and CD silkscreening, there are no extras, and yet they can cost about the same amount as a DVD.

That being said, I buy the product. For some reason having a real, legitimate collection feels more authentic than having a shelf full of CDR's.

Re:My take on it (1)

Carrot007 (37198) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813551)

> IMHO, there is very little difference between mp3 and CD quality. Yes, there are differences, and audiophiles will point this out every time. But the fact is, most users don't care.

It really depends on what you encode at doesn't it.
128 is NO WHERE near good quality (though if you've got shit speakers it's good enough!)

I encode all my mp3's at 128-320 VBR maximum quality using lame ("-b 128 -m s -h -V 0 -B 320" specifically) This is ok nowadays as harddrives are bigger, the files are roughly twice as big as a 128 cbr mp3.

> Now DVD's vs DIVX. Not only can the quality suck (artifacts all the time), but the sound can be totally out of sync, which is really really annoying. Plus, unlike mp3 CD's which can be played in just about any new CD player, DIVX does not play in standalone DVD players without hacking the hardware.

Again, PLEASE REMEBER THAT THE QUALITY DEPENDS THE CHOSEN ENCODING PARAMETERS and that most people compromise a lot on quality to bring the size down.

And yes DIVX isn;t supported on (most) DVD players but what about SVCD? that's good and the quality is sufficiantly better than the other option of VCD, which hey isn't too bad and if all you want to do is rip the film VCD is around the same quality as VHS. (some plus point on vhs, some negative but overall about as good as)


Tired... (0, Redundant)

or_smth (473159) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813433)

I'm really tired of stories like/similiar to this. Everytime I see one, I have to think of something I once saw another slashdotter say...

Anyone who knows anything about statistical analysis knows that the results of a wide-scale advancement (ex. movie piracy) will not start to show up properly (read: without major bias) until about five years. Only then can you actually start to analyse what's happened to the industry.

That being said, I still don't think that movie piracy will have much of an impact. Even my uncle knows that the movie quality is crap, and if he really wanted to see it he would see it in a [home, real] theatre.

Re:Tired... (1)

heimotikka (588619) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813512)

That being said, I still don't think that movie piracy will have much of an impact. Even my uncle knows that the movie quality is crap, and if he really wanted to see it he would see it in a [home, real] theatre.

After five years the quality will be much better and dvd-burners are common. Won't have much of an impact? Yeah, theaters are still better, but you can download pirate moviez and watch them in your home theatre. I guess someone is paying big euros for DVD-manufacturers to delay dvd-burners... Doesn't really need to be fortune teller to predict that movie pirating will go up like a rocket.

Urie needs a clue-by-four. (5, Insightful)

Cutriss (262920) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813435)

"How are people going to justify stealing a movie by saying it isn't any good after the movie's already a $100-million hit?"

There's a difference between earning $100M in the box office, and *spending* $100M to make radio stations and Top 40 charts play music that doesn't have public appeal behind it.

"Urie says his company doesn't heavily research consumer attitude, noting, "We tend to ask how can we make more money and sell more product, not deal with consumer gripes."

And therein lies the problem.

Re:Urie needs a clue-by-four. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813503)

"Urie says his company doesn't heavily research consumer attitude, noting, "We tend to ask how can we make more money and sell more product, not deal with consumer gripes."

To which the answer always appears to be "Lets create another band! Toss a coin Julian. Heads its a Girl band."

If they didn't create such fucking, aweful, soundless CRAP, then maybe they wouldn't be in the position they are now. Of course your sales have flattened, RIAA member; all of your music sounds the same, and it is all shit! 99% of your market is now targeted at 12 to 16 year olds! Thats a tiny, tiny, tiny market segment. Everyone else can pretty much see right through you.

In conclusion, music executives have become fat, lazy and talentless bean counters. Let them all go broke!

Re:Urie needs a clue-by-four. (2)

ObviousGuy (578567) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813539)

There's no doubt that they deserve to go broke, but the question is if you are going to break the law to help bring them down.

Re:Urie needs a clue-by-four. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813570)

Myself personally? Not these days, I grew up long ago. I buy all of my CD's these days, the few that I do buy. I usually end up ripping them to Oggs so that I don't have to keep my CD's in my drawers at work, as we have had breakins. Under European & UK law, thats perfectly 100% legal, regardless of what the record companies say in the US.

I do buy a lot less than I ever used to. Wether that is because my tastes have refined themselves over the years, or because (I suspect), more and more music is simply crap these days, I cannot say for certain.

They do deserve to go broke though.

Insider's scoop: Why BSD is dying (-1)

pwpbot (588025) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813436)

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Picture quality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813438)

I suspect a reason for this is the rather poor quality of most 'moviez' out there. A lot of people tend to see movies (and listen to music) as soon as it comes out, but while music is immediately available in a digital format, movies are not. Often you have to wait until some pirate gets ahold of the DVD version and rips it to get a halfway-decent file. Thus it's not anywhere near as easy to simulate the experience of going to a movie on your computer (compared to purchasing an audio CD).

Funny... (3, Insightful)

AcidDan (150672) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813439)

I thought the music industry was doing bad because everyone is sick of the manufactured market juggernauts that are now the market norm...

I've bought more CDs this year than ever before, but, like most of my friends tell me "we've never heard of them"...

Ironically, they also say I have great taste in music and love it when I play my collection. Of course my taste prolly isn't yours so a statement like this one could be completely wrong if you heard the stuff I'm into.

-- Dan, who is DJing J00lz's party this weekend: Happy 21st Birthday Julie! =)

P.S. Support your locals whoever they are - see them at concerts, buy their CDs and give them your support - THIS is where we should be as music enthusiasts, not lining some corporate pocket that dictates to us what is 'Hot' and what is 'Not'

P.P.S. Sorry for the rant but I have a big thing for music...

Re:Funny... (2)

Lysander Luddite (64349) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813556)

Frankly, I haven't seen more than 2-3 movies the past year that hasn't sucked. OTOH, there's probably a good dozen more CDs I'd like to buy.

If you think movies aren't suffering because they're somehow better than the CDs being released you're sadly mistaken.

I agree... (3, Informative)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813582)

Much of what I hear on the radio is crap.

I first discovered artists like Chemical Brothers, Orbital, and such from MP3s in my dorm a few years ago. Needless to say, they get little to no radio play (Except for on Solid State - Do a Google search for Liquid Todd - K-Rock lets him spin midnight-4AM Saturdays, and it's a great way to hear new and unique music.)

I'll admit, I've been mostly downloading MP3s until recently - I was a poor college student. But now that I'm working and have money, I've begun hunting down various CDs by the above artists.

Actually, the record industry shouldn't be worried about MP3s - They should be worried about - That's where I'm going for most of my music.

Economics 101 (5, Insightful)

jweatherley (457715) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813440)

Perhaps people don't rip off DVDs so much because they see them as fairly priced unlike music CDs? You can even get DVDs of a movie that are cheaper than the soundtrack! Considering how much expense it take to make the average movie then the price of a DVD isn't too bad - £16 at release in the UK quickly dropping thereafter. But I'm not paying £16 for a CD that may or may not work in my computer/car/DVD player to keep some studio executive's crack habit going.

Re:Economics 101 (-1)

OklaKid (552472) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813495)

exactly, it all voodoo economics..

Maybe economics, but for a different reason (3, Insightful)

HMV (44906) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813516)

The costs to amass a considerable music library are small in terms of everything from hardware to time to bandwidth. An entire CD can be had and burned within the half hour by adding a free file sharing program, a sub-US$100 burner, and a dead-cheap blank CD.

The costs to obtain and transfer movies (assuming end use on a home theatre) are drastically higher. You must dedicate bandwidth, a large block of your time, a DVD burner that will set you back a few hundred, plus the cost of media and/or storage.

There is no instant gratification element to sharing movies of any considerable length and quality.

So you're right when you bring up pricing. The effective cost of "sharing" a CD is extremely low, let's say $2 when you figure in blank media, bandwidth used, the value of your time, etc. So that's $2 vs. $16. The effective cost of obtaining a DVD that way is much higher at least to the point where the individual decides "it's not worth the time" when compared to the price of the retail product and heads to the local shop.

Re:Economics 101 (2, Insightful)

RazzleFrog (537054) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813529)

This is such a great point and it was mentioned in the article briefly. How many remember when videos (VHS and Beta) first came out. Movies were selling for obscene prices - like $75. The industry quickly caught on and prices dropped to $20-25. Now you can get classic movies for $5. DVD's also have come down over the years. The music industry on the other hand has increased prices consistently even though physical production costs have come down considerably.

In related news... (5, Informative)

Jon Abbott (723) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813441)

Vivendi Universal and Sony Corp. are preparing to sue individual song swappers [] ... I'm curious how this will be done.

Great article (0)

AForwardMotion (586699) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813443)

It's good to know that some media in general has a good head on its shoulders. Frankly I couldn't care less if the music industry crumbled (It won't). In fact who here would give a damn if tomorrow the three top music suppliers went bankrupt? Not many of us thats for sure.

I'd bet ... (1)

sinistre (59027) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813447)

I'd bet piracy has NOTHING to do with the music industry not doing so well. The movie industry has been makeing lots of great movies lately - the music industry are mostly trying so sell that pop shit (you know the music that goes 'dunk,dunk,dunk,dunk,dunk'). The so called artists are mearly copying eachothers, sampling, copying and stealing. Maybe it's time for a change. Just my 2 cents worth.

Interesting pricing (5, Insightful)

jhines (82154) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813449)

When the CD soundtrack costs as much as the DVD withe the movie and more, that explains a LOT.

DVD movie prices are going down, and consumers feel they have value. They don't feel the same way about overpriced CD's.

Re:Interesting pricing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813463)

Agreed, half a year old dvds cost like 9 euros (10$) while cds costs twice that.

Re:Interesting pricing (2)

BoBaBrain (215786) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813545)

Spot on.

It is much more expensive to buy a soundtrack on (cheap) CD than it is to buy the whole film itself on (costly) video.

Having said that, watching a pirated movie on your PC sucks, while listening to a pirated CD isn't too bad at all. Maybe when PCs come with 72" flat screens the price of DVDs will rocket...

Interesting pricing (3, Insightful)

Zelet (515452) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813540)

Something that people have to realize is that movies come out in movie theaters first and make big $$$. Then they come out on DVD and it is just a bonus for the studios.

Music doesn't have that initial money from a movie theater type situation. I think that is why the record companies are more scared and more affected by piracy.

(Although, I feel that CDs are overpriced and DVDs have much more value per $)

DVDs good value for money? (1)

Tune (17738) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813564)

CDs are overpriced - agreed. But so are DVDs.

New CDs cost 20-25 euros, video DVDs and games cost about twice. You can listen to a good CD hundreds of times, while most DVDs get boring after a few viewings (doesn't necessarily go for video games, though most of them suck IMHO).

I personally do not consider DVDs good value for money. (Most) current DVD players cannot record, the discs are expensive and their quality is also overated. Therefore, a lot should change before I'd consider trashing my good'ol crappy VHS.

The markets a pretty different... (1, Interesting)

Bozzio (183974) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813450)

Wouldn't the fact that movies can be rented make a huge difference in pirating?

With a CD, you can't rent it at a low cost to see if you like it. With a movie, however, for just a few dollars you can enjoy the movie, and if you want to, purchase it without fear of wasting your money.

Re:The markets a pretty different... (1)

Carrot007 (37198) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813497)

> Wouldn't the fact that movies can be rented make a huge difference in pirating?

YES! It would probably increase it.

1. Rent DVD
2. Rip to SVCD
3. Repeat...

And given the fact that it costs about a 1/3 of the price to rent as it does to buy (UK) really encourages the people that can to do it.

Though of course if it's a really good film with usefull DVD extras there is more insentive to buy it.

Also some people might rip it first and then buy it later IF they have any spare cash. IF ;-)


Re:The markets a pretty different... (1)

Funkle Vezzy (581077) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813542)

I don't agree.

Not everybody who rents DVDs will think of ripping them. Hell, only a small percentage of these people even know how!

Though only a few would know how to rip the movie, most would know how to get a ripped copy of the internet.

You've got to say, unless you have a good moviez provider, it can be really tough to get a movie even on broadband. This is why I think the majority of movie downloaders would give up and just rent the higher quality DVD (with bells and whistles). Once exposed to the real McCoy maybe they wouldn't care for a cheap rip anymore.

Since movies are harder to get, the quality is noticably worse, and access to real copies is relatively cheap (in NA anyway), John Q Eyeball is most likely to rent over sacrificing a few hours on the nerd box.

Bane (3, Insightful)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813451)

The LA Times is running an article that explores the idea that while piracy has been the (supposed) bane of the music industry

Oh, I'm pretty damn sure that piracy is the bane of the music industry.

It's just that they sell truck loads of absolute rubbish to 14 year old Britany Fans/N-Sync/Backstreet Boys/etc who don't go and download their music.

This is what makes up a very good proportion of the vast amount of money they make.

OTOH (2)

Lysander Luddite (64349) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813576)

Pink Floyd and the Beatles continue to sell well 20-30 years after their release.

Don't blame teenie boppers only for a large number of sales.

Music DVDs (1)

Average (648) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813454)

One thing that may (hopefully) come of this is further growth in the Video Music DVD. I, for one, won't buy movies b/c I *never* want to watch a movie twice. Certainly not every day. But, I've got 20 or so Music DVDs (Bluegrass, Jazz, etc). These have the replayability of a CD but are much more engrossing. I have yet to sell one back to a used trader... I like them so well. I'm hoping to see more and more inventive DVDs in this field.

Sure, I can download Divx rips (1)

TheDick (453572) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813456)

But I just don't bother. I generally get my DVDs cheap enough, that its worth it to me. The quality is much better, and I'm a sucker for special features, like Director Commentaries, and shit like that. I still download a bootleg of a soon to be released flick (ie still in theaters) but thats really about it. CDs on the other hand, you get 99.9% of the use, with 1% of the cost, whats the point? A movie costs the studio $100 million, I can buy it for $17. A Record that cost maybe $1 million in studio time is $20 at the Mall. That makes SO much sense...

It's just that the movie industry is REALISTIC. (1)

Carrot007 (37198) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813457)

Film "PIRACY" is just as rife on the net as music "PIRACY", a few are put off by the increased size but belive me even dial up users can download a movie given a decent news server with a retention of a least a week.

However maybe the execs in the movie business are a little saner! I mean in the music industry they probably count someone thinking about buying an album and then not as a sale lost to "PIRACY". Maybe the movie execs realise that not even pirated copy is a lost sale (in fact not even 50% of them are lost sales, probably higher)

OTOH maybe people prefer to buy films as they are more of a FIXED place commodity, that is you watch them on your tv, where as CDs cripple music buy tying them down to using them in a place where a player is.

What I mean is music is more using on a computer than a movie. I mean you can't WORK and watch a film, whereas you can work and listen to music (though your boss might dissagree)


Re:It's just that the movie industry is REALISTIC. (1)

ClarkEvans (102211) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813527)

However maybe the execs in the movie business are a little saner! I mean in the music industry they probably count someone thinking about buying an album and then not as a sale lost to "PIRACY

You clearly haven't been following Fritz Holling's senate hearings have you? The movie industry is arguing that the only thing keeping their profits up is that movies are very big. They state that the biggest reason for broadband is movies, and that they won't push for broadband (and in fact actively seek to keep broadband minimal) until the problem of rampid piracy of intellectual content is solved. Luckly, Microsoft is being a good player here and is going to help out the movie industry (and thus look good to government, so perhaps they will be more lienent on the pending court case). Amazing how one issue gets intertwined in another isn't it? As for movie exects being more realistic? Please.

Ummmm....Price? (5, Insightful)

the Man in Black (102634) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813459)

I'm impressed that no one mentioned the fact that I can get the new Collector's Edition of "The Evil Dead", complete with 4 hours of extras and a special "Necronomicon cover" for ~$20, while Britney Spears most recent 65 minutes of suck costs about the same?

65 minutes of Britney sucking? (2)

jonr (1130) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813510)

Scares me and intrigues me at the same time...

Re:Ummmm....Price? (2, Funny)

mbbac (568880) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813538)

Where can I get a DVD with 65 minutes of Britney Spears sucking?!? Dammit, man! Provide a link!

Re:mmmmh Britney Spears (1)

Te1waz (453498) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813559)

65 minutes of Britney Spears sucking?

I'd buy that.

This must be where the music industry is going wrong...

Re:Ummmm....Price? (5, Funny)

TheGreenLantern (537864) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813572)

The problem is, many more people out there (read: teenage girls) would rather have the Britney Spears CD than the 8th "Special Edition" of Evil Dead. Even with the Necronomicon cover.

If Sam Raimi was a teen heart-throb, you'd better believe you'd be paying over $20 for that DVD.

Re:Ummmm....Price? (2)

samael (12612) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813575)

How many hours of watching does that collectors edition get? Most people watch a movie 3 maybe 4 times tops. Add in a watch of the 4 hours of extras and that's 20 hours total.

How many times do you listen to an album? I've listened to some of mine over a thousand.

Slashdot - now in fullscreen! by pwpbot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813462)

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If the music wasn't so shit ... (3, Insightful)

NotZed (19455) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813464)

... people might buy more of it.

Get off the "pirate" crap, the music is shit (and overpriced, esp in USA, thanks to your protective trade policies), and thats the real reason nobody is buying much of it.

Large corporations (the real pirates) making carbon copies of the latest plastic fad, trying to guide the public tastes, and mostly just getting it plain wrong.

The only guy I know who copies stuff all the time, copies movies just as much as music. And I can't imagine him with a sword cutting your legs off - some pirate.

Lack of respect for consumers (1)

csteinle (68146) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813467)

Urie says his company doesn't heavily research consumer attitude, noting, "We tend to ask how can we make more money and sell more product, not deal with consumer gripes."

That's why they have a problem. They don't care about their customers, and we know it because it's blatantly obvious from the dross they push and the high prices they charge.

Urie is a nutter. (1)

f00Dave (251755) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813472)

The argument this Urie fellow makes (inflated prices to offset 'lost revenues' from piracy) reminds me of the way large software products developed in the 80's. I mean, we had 40,000$ operating systems, 100,000$ 3D renderers, and worse. Which is fine and all, if your market is small enough....

Back when CDs came out, they needed to recover the cost of development (building the CD manufacturing infrastructure and all that), but surely after 20+ years, the factories have been paid for.

So why haven't CDs dropped from the 20$ mark? Greed, I guess. I, for one, would gladly pay 5$ for a CD I enjoy listening to ... but 20$ is a bit ridiculous. Hence the reason I haven't actually bought a new music CD in about eight years now: our household gets by with the occasional used CD and lots of MP3s.

As students, we simply can't *afford* that much for a CD.

But we're starting to build a DVD library.

Odd, isn't it, Mr. Urie?

just wait for dvd burners (1)

mister sticky (301125) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813473)

i think that once dvd burners become reasonably priced and easy to use (and standardized) there will be a surge in dvd copying.
The movie industry would be blind not to look at what is taking a bite out of record sales and not see that coming.

Re:just wait for dvd burners (1)

ThogScully (589935) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813514)

The music industry never complained much about music piracy until MP3s. CD Burners were cheap enough before MP3s became popular.

don't believe everything you read (1)

mydigitalself (472203) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813475)

well i seem to be useless at finding wired articles that i've read in print on their web site; but a few months ago they had on the cover "is this man a pirate? are you?" and it was all about our hollywood accusing silicon valley of promoting piracy yadda yadda

and naturally they went on to say that internet-based piracy was costing them billions of dollars. now this article says its not even an issue.

it would be really great to have an independant advisory panel who analysed and reported REAL statistics (and took into account social movements etc and CRAP ALBUMS FILL OF FILLER!) so one would be able to have an objective analysis on this.

i'm so bored of reading conflicting articles on this whole piracy issue...

.rant.sorry :P

nice language (1)

NASAKnight (588155) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813477)

"is in such a funk?"
"The dissing of CDs ..."

Is this how corporate america talks now?

Yo yo yo! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813553)

Wassup all my homies in accounting? Biggidy biggidy, da Ceee Eeee Ohhhhhh-baby is in da house!

Profits is down. Shiiiitt!

Video piracy is newer (2)

micromoog (206608) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813479)

Music piracy has been going on en masse for several years. Video piracy is newer. It's just a matter of time and technology . . .

Mp3s and the internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813481)

I have bought much more music because of downloading mp3's from the internet

Something needs to give (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813483)

The reasoning is simple. DVD is much better than any bootleg. They can, for now, get away with charging what they will. Moreover, the cost of DVDs is actually much more reasonable than the cost of a CD.

For whatever reason, the music industry still doesn't understand that there is no beating a penny-pinching college student (or adult). It's not that people WANT to steal, but there is apparently enough people find the cost outrageous enough to rationalize it.

Yes, you can make the argument, it is the music industries "right" to set the price they feel appropriate. However, the record industry is a pseudo-monopoly and there is nothing to check the monopoly. There is no competition, there is no real good alternative. Something has to give: either monopoly or the copyright.

More of my critical thoughts [] .

No hardware player... (2)

Kjella (173770) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813488)

It's that simple..... I got computers right-left and center.. I'm considering making one of them my PVR, but having a simple CD/DVD player that I could just pop in a burned CD-R into would be so much simpler, for good and for bad. But I suppose hardware MPEG4 decoding is coming (the card for PC is already here) so I suppose there's only a matter of time before a standalone player incorporates it, well that is if anyone dares...


Simple Math (3, Insightful)

MBCook (132727) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813498)

Would you rather pay $20+ for a half hour of music (when was the last time you bought a CD that was actually near 74 mins?) or pay that same $20 or so to buy a 2 hour DVD that also has extras? That's what I thought. DVDs are actually worth the money they cost, while CDs are grossly inflated. IMHO of course.

um...prices? (1)

redtoade (51167) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813500)

Music CD: $15
Video DVD: $22

Do the math!

piracy is a red herring. (4, Interesting)

uncoveror (570620) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813501)

Hollywood made more money the Memorial Day weekend of 2002 than at any other previous time. Piracy is no threat to them. People who watch pirated movies on their computer are just sneak previewing, and will go to a theater. People who buy pirate DVDs at the flea market for fewer than ten dollars won't pay full retail for legit ones. People who do pay full retail for legit ones wouldn't be caught dead in a flea market or with DVDs from one. When you boil it all down, piracy is a non-issue. Shutting it down would not get Hollywood or the recording industry any richer. They are wasting their resources fighting it, and would waste our resources if Congress gives them tax money to combat piracy. This is all true of the recording industry [] as well. They are not interested in anything but protecting their power over artists.

What about convenience? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813515)

People are overlooking one of the biggest factors here: convenience.

Divx simply doesn't have the number of features that DVD has. One of the reasons that DVDs have been such a success is that there's the ability to get to wherever you want on a disc instantly (something that was unheard of in VHS). People truly are lazy creatures and things like instant rewinds (which admittedly DiVX also has) and scene selection (which last I checked it didn't) are important and need to be factored in.

The other part of things is that by nature, humans are collectors. They like to aquire their DVDs for their movie collection. DiVX doesn't have that same collectibility as the store bought official DVD. With music, you have the problem that if you buy the disc to feed that collectibility need, you still have a disc with one or two songs that you like (maybe a few more if it's an extraordinary disc) and a bunch of "to be skipped" tracks. Personally I'd rather make my own disc. Oh, and don't say that people can burn from their CDs to make custom CDs of their own because while they can (and the average slashdotter might), the average person is too lazy to go that extra mile.

Realistic Pricing (2)

DeadBugs (546475) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813522)

DVD's generally are priced pretty good compared to CD's. I spend an average of $12 for each new DVD. I have found some for $6. Most these DVD's come loaded with extras and multi-disc sets. CD's are priced way too high, with no extra's. I usually get my CD's from a used CD store. $18.00 for a new CD is outrageous.
Of course maybe the DVD industry has not been able to get together and fix prices like the CD industry.

Uh, yet to be felt... (1)

idletask (588926) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813528)

... and software for ripping DVDs then encoding them in DivX (I'll lose the st00pid smiley) have existed for a while, and people use it... What gives?

I actually wonder how studies quantify piracy, whether in audio, video or even software, and whether the figures they come with are accurate at all (well I bet Microsoft has quite some adequate figures since the introduction of Windows Update, at least).

I rather think (like probably many people) that the so-called piracy in the audio field is just no piracy at all. Audio CDs don't sell that much because they're damn too expensive ($20 is not nothing). In comparison, the price of DVDs offer a far greater bang for your buck. Even apart from the data storage capacity (which avg user doesn't give a <beep> about anyway), with DVD you get audio AND video, and a longer piece of it. Not to mention interactive features. DVDs have a much greater price/"performance" ratio than audio CDs.

The disappearance of Napster, imho, has also hurt the music industry by some margin. The avg user, him again, certainly knew how to use Napster, whereas ripping MP3s to a CDR is quite of a challenge even today. It was such a great way to discover new music. Then he would go buy the CDs that interested him. I used it this way myself. In fact I used it so much that I bought 7 CDs in 2 months, more than ever before (ratio speaking) in my lifetime.

Now there is no such possibility. I have to go to the CD store and pray that the vendor agreed to let me listen to the darn CD that I noticed due to the artists' names on the cover. And frankly it does feel uncomfortable to lend the CD back and say "sorry, I don't take it". That's just a lost sale for the vendor as the plastic cover has been removed. But hey, $20...

Music Industry numbers are inconclusive (1)

joel8x (324102) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813531)

I wonder how much they account people buying music from underground indie bands - I suspect none. The independant music scene is quite large and there are many bands who make a very good living without signing to the majors (Fugazi, NOFX, and Superchunk [who I saw last night at a sold-out show at the Roseland] come to mind). Maybe the population is getting sick of the cheese-filled fluff that the Music Industry shoves down our throats. There aren't many major label acts that I would spend my money on out there. I wonder if you accounted for all of the independant music fans' buying habits how much it would change the numbers.

Ok, so let's figure this out.. (2, Interesting)

sporty (27564) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813532)

Dvd's have been around for what, about 4 years? Anyone find the back to the future dvd yet? No. But many other movies out of the past and present are coming to dvd. Music has been on cd for at least 10 years.

Now here's the clincher. Music now-a-days just sounds like carbon copies of everything. Remember bands like Bush, Motley Crue, Metallica (before they sold out), Rob Base, Run DMC and the likes? Today's day and age seems more of a rehash of everything that's already been done. Why buy crappy music much less rip it?

DVDs (1)

blkhole (589933) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813534)

I'm tired of hearing how piracy is hurting cd sales. The problem is people not feeling that the artist is being compensated for their work and that record companies set the price of cd's too high. Dvd's are a good value and that is why they are selling well.

Maybe It's Not Piracy... (2)

dbretton (242493) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813544)

That's hurting so much.

Maybe, just maybe , it has something to do with that a DVD costs almost the same as a CD these days...

Rentals! (1)

Rinikusu (28164) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813555)

Also figure into your analysis this: I can go to a variety of places, say Hollywood or Blockbuster and RENT the movie for a very reasonable price. How many places will let you do that with an audio CD?

Most places get pissed off if you OPEN the goddamn thing.

Consumer dollars shifting (2)

Demon-Xanth (100910) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813561)

This appears to be more of a function of consumer dollars shifting to something that IS coming out with new and good material.

The music industry has been so stagnant that new material worth the gas to drive to the store is rare. There are GOOD movies on DVD that people want to watch. They can claim piracy is killing them but until they wake up and realize that they have to market stuff the record sales are going to fall.

Simple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813567)

I think it would be fair to say that the reason a lot of people chose to pay for a movie is because it provides a bigger experience than a music CD. You get the video, the sound, but mainly, you care about the experience, and about the emotions evoked by the movie. I would have to say that most people chose to buy movies because they feel that they are worth the money, which is not the case for CDs. They don't draw you in as much, not to mention that you probably like about two or three songs off it anyway. Most people don't buy a DVD to watch a quarter of it.

It's called 'entertainment value' (4, Insightful)

interstellar_donkey (200782) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813578)

There is a very simple line of logic industry leaders seem to forget. People will often spend more money on things they enjoy then something they don't.

The sad fact is, the quality of main stream music has continued to fall, and yet the industry seems to continue to put greater and greater restrictions into what can enter into the market.

The quality of movies seems to fluctuate, but at the very least, one can say that every year we get quite a few movies that are highly entertaining. This is despite the fact that the market already has quite a few restrictions as to what can enter.

Simple solution? Stop making music that is'nt entertaining, start charging prices that are out of sync with the quality of the product.

Here's Why. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813579)

Here's a quick explanation from a consumer.

The music industry sucks. It's putting out crap. I don't wanna buy it, and my wife is satisfied with her EZRock radio station. If they find me another Nirvana, I'll buy it. If Floyd puts out another album, I'll buy it. I have Ozzy's entire collection and haven't been disappointed thus far. Same with NIN, Manson, Type O Negative and Rammstein.

But the stuff the record industry FOCUSES ON is absolute swill shot from the ass of disco. Screw it.

On the other hand, movies are a family affair. Everyone goes to the movies WITH SOMEONE, which doubles the sales right there. And you get to see mucho naked babes and bad guys' heads getting chopped off, which is what we Americans want to see.

For me, piracy doesn't even enter into it. I've left my Cable running all night to download a Gentoo ISO, I'm sure I could leave it running to snag a movie if I wanted. But I don't. I can buy a DVD for less than I can buy a CD now.


The middle of the road view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3813581)

There simply is just much more value in movie than a song. I can pay 5 dollars to go see a movie in a theater and know that my money goes to a quality product or at least something that I want to see.

The music industry is so messed up they should seriously reeavaluate their strategies. CD's should cost less than DVD's. When the soundtrack costs more than the movie, there's a problem. Unlike the movie industry, 1 company (clear crap channel) controls almost all the radio stations and forces the studios to payola them off for individual songs that marketers feel would help them sell their product. Consumers will only tolerate the same bland music for so long. What is "alternative" alternative to?

Also, Hilary Rosen's pack of jackbooted thug lawyers pursuing schorched earth lawsuits againt anyone with a new technology idea is not going to win them customers. For crying out loud new cds that are "copy protected" dont even play in a lot of players!

She honestly can't stop someone from recording a song off the radio and digitizing it. She can't stop technology any better than Count Dracula can stop the sun from rising. Doesnt she want her industry to make more money? Napster and the like are free promotion, free from the bondage of Clear Channel! She should be tickled pink that there is as much interest in her music instead of movies or reading a book. But no, I bet Randy Michaels and Lowery Mays bitchslapped her into suing everyone. How big is the crack habit of those two guys?

Is DVD copying potentially a bad thing? Yes. How can it be mitigated? Keep consumers happy with low prices and quality movies. That alone will steer away a large quantity of the sheep who will glady pay to be entertained and not have to think about how they will do it. It's the path of least resistance.

Also, put away the lawyers and lobbyists and just make the damn movies and music to entertain us. Do that to the way the consumer wants and you will earn some of my money.

If not, as a slashdotter and a technology maven, I will spend time and energy to either piss you off or just ignore you entirely.

Technology--Hard disk space and BANDWIDTH and burn (1)

Kevin Stevens (227724) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813586)

I think it is important to realize that MP3 technology languished for many years before it all of a sudden mushroomed into the juggernaut is today (in fact I believe the original technology originated in 1988, but you would have to check me on that). Why? 1.) Mp3's are most commonly played in the background, while doing other things on a computer. For a long time, MP3's were computationally intensive enough that they were annoying to use on anything less than a pentium II. 2.) Cd burners-- CD burners made it effortless to get an exact duplicate of the music, and MP3's did not take off until burners became prevalent and everyone had one, or at least knew someone that did. 3.) Hard drive space. Back in the day of 1 gig hard drives, it was very easy to fill up your disk w/ a menial number of songs, and buying more disk space to house music files just wasnt cost effective. 4.) THE BIGGIE--BANDWIDTH. Until cable modems came around, and college kids had lan/t1 access, no one wanted to wait 8 hours to listen to a 3 minute song. Ok, now what is the point of this exercise? Replace all of the words MP3 and song, with DVD and MOVIE. We are in a similar position w/ dvd/movies that we were in with mp3/songs right before they ballooned in popularity. For movies to become as pirated as music, we are going to need huge bandwidth upgrades, which I do not see happening any time soon. However, Hard disk space, DVD burners, and Processor speeds are improving every day, and I bet you the age of movie pirating will soon be upon us.

art work and packaging + content. (1)

ayeco (301053) | more than 12 years ago | (#3813589)

Its all about the artwork and packaging. The artwork and packaging is worth more on a dvd than on a audio cd. There is more emotion with a dvd, unless you're a HUGE fan of a band.
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