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A Private European Internet?

chrisd posted more than 12 years ago | from the dns-is-a-consensus-reality dept.

The Internet 697

jakemk2 writes "Bill Thompson writing in The Register advocates a private European Internet to stop the fact that it has "been so extensively abused by the United States and its politicians, lawyers and programmers that it has become a serious threat to the continued survival of the network as a global communications medium" Read it here" His logical fallacy is , of course, thinking that the US has a monopoly on this kind of thing.

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Ask Slashdot... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041275)

I said "Hello" to a Muslim the other day, and he shot my daughter in the face.

Does that make me a racist?

well no wonder (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041307)

"hello" is Arabic for "Allah can lick off my unwiped ass, you filthy sand-nigger." I'd have raped her before I shot her if you'd said that to me!

-Madeline Albright

Yeah that's right (2, Insightful)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041283)

It's been only a bit more than 10 year that the Berlin wall went down, I think it's time we isolate Europe again.

Re:Yeah that's right (2, Funny)

unicron (20286) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041298)

Damn, I would've NEVER expected you.

Re:Yeah that's right (0)

mass2k (599758) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041348)

that was not funny. at all. not. stfu.

Re:Yeah that's right (1)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041412)

Not it was insightful, see...now USTFU

There should be a private French internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041443)

It could be 0wn3d by the Germans at will.

World Peace (5, Interesting)

SirSlud (67381) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041291)

I remember people saying how the Internet would bring us all together. You know, no borders, that silly stuff.

Ironically, its proving that due to its non-geographical nature, you dont actually have to _have_ a border to fight over - you can just invent one at your own whim! Think about it .. subnets - the world's new holy lands, only this time you can add as many as you like if things get too homogonized for your liking. ;)

And please take this with a grain of salt, I'm only half-kidding.

Re:World Peace (2, Funny)

unicron (20286) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041368)

The entire thing is so ridiculous that it's not even worth putting thought into. To think that any one establishment, even the US Government, can control something like the internet to any degree is laughable. That's like saying "Europeans unhappy with the way the US government has been aligning the planets".

Re:World Peace (2, Insightful)

buggy_throwback (259436) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041426)

>To think that any one establishment, even the US Government, can control something like the internet to any degree is laughable.

Thats a load of rubbish. If the government says to the ISP's stop connecting to outside countries then they have to. It would be the Law. All you have to do is turn off the phone lines. Once you stop other countries from interfereing with your bit of the web you register the servers and your away. Spend £100Million and you can censor the whole thing. simple.

Re:World Peace (2)

cosmosis (221542) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041414)

His piece is filled with all sorts of contradictions. On the one hand he rightfully complains about draconian US laws being used like a sledgehammer against both US Citizens and those abroad, but then in the same breath he goes on to slam the one aspect of the internet that is free. He doesn't make any sense - my paraphrase , "We must free from US Hegonomony so we can institute our own more dranconian set of laws - DRM, censorship, etc.

I'm left with a big "Huh?".

Israel.com (2)

Codex The Sloth (93427) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041447)

The jihad of the future will be over domain name disuputes...

Don't let the door hit you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041292)

Good riddance. I'm sick of eurotrash anyways.

you have a point (1, Insightful)

krog (25663) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041406)

This is clearly flamebait, but you have a point. I can think of perhaps three European IP addresses I'd want access to, as well as the entire UK (they're ok). But the rest of my experience with European net users is one of annoyance. Either it's spams coming from remote countries or wanadoo.fr (AOL for France) lamers shitting in my IRC channel or some such. I'd be ok with Europe dropping off ARPAnet and I'm not afraid to say it.

Wow... (4, Interesting)

killthiskid (197397) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041295)

From the article:


Unless we can take back the Net from the libertarians, constitutional lawyers and rapacious corporations currently recreating the worst excesses of US political and commercial culture online, we will end up with an Internet which serves the imperial ambitions of only one country instead of the legitimate aspirations of the whole world.

Umm... while I might agree that there is a lot of commercial content on the web these days, what about the rest of it, like educational resources, online research, BLOGS, and, well, damn near an infinite amount of other resources?


Nothing like cutting off your arm 'cause your fingers hurt.

Re:Wow... (1)

Jobe_br (27348) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041377)

I agree. The problem, in my opinion, isn't that there isn't good content out there (that isn't commercial), but rather that the content is soooooooooooooo poorly presented. It seems to me that folks that aren't professional designers (with years of experience designing professional sites and other materials) should stick to Jakob's rules of web site design. It sure would make a lot of the content out there more bearable to read. Just my thoughts, though ..

Re:Wow... (2)

killthiskid (197397) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041460)

Agreed. Thank god they killed the blink tag, or I bet a good 30% of the web would still be blinking.


Function over form, I say. Working for a .edu, I go so far as to ensure my content can be viewed though LYNX, which, when using strict XHTML, isn't very hard to do.


I may not have fancy web sites, but they are accessiable, easy to use, easy to navigate, fast loading, and are full of information.


As it should be.


Lesse: Microsoft, MPAA, RIAA, Disney, etc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041398)

He has an incredibly legit point here.
Given the choice, I'd pack up my digital bags and be user #1 on this new Internet.

Only a small percentage remember the days when there wasn't a single corporate interest on the web. It was pure, unfettered information.

While sure, that information is still here, its publication and therefore purpose has been lost.

Want to learn how to program? Pay gobs of money, and even then your programs are restricted by American corporations. (dont use a file format you didn't create from scratch, dont make a text-to-speech for .pdf files, dont step on the grass when you're surrounded by fields!)

America, whether we like it or not, we have abused the Internet as a medium.

Separation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041296)

I often thought the US should be the one with the separate network.

Popcorn!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041301)

Get your popcorn here for the big UK vs. US flame fest. Get yer hot buttered popcorn .....

So... (1)

Izanagi (466436) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041302)

Where do I sign up?

Re:So... (1)

zpiro (525660) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041408)

i second that, EU should really have more influence over europe then USA.
And i would like to see a realy competitor to .com ICANN and the main toplevel domains isnt very appealing anymore.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041454)

amen to dat!

Holy ^&*% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041305)

I just submitted the same story, but with the twist that Europe is rapidly getting sick of the US always sticking it's nose where it's not wanted. Among rapidly growing anti-US sentiment. The Guardian ran this article at an earlier date: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/26612.html

Euros (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041308)

If you're American before going IN to the bathroom, and if you're American after going OUT of the bathroom...what are you IN the bathroom?

European!

Re:Euros (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041393)

You know why we're Americans again when we come out? Because we just expelled all of the filth.

Let them get their own pr0n (0)

reshu-wan-kenobi (599205) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041309)

It'd work until the euros realized that they couldnt get pr0n from the US anymore.. WWIII baby.. =)

Uhmm.... (0, Troll)

Your_Mom (94238) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041311)

Pardon me, I know that most Americans are a bunch of arsemunches, but isn't the Internet supposed be a /global/ medium designed to let people communicated despite where they are?

Oh well... Time to move to Andora.

s/Americans/people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041344)

That is all.

Re:Uhmm.... (3, Interesting)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041389)

Actually, the internet isn't *supposed* to be anything other than a method of pushing bits from one place to another.

Granted, the historical strength of the internet has always been bringing people together over distance based on common interests or motives (Slashdot, girlskissing.co.uk and eBay are all excellent examples). Just because it's been that way, however, doesn't mean that it's the only practical use.

What I find interesting is that the author suggests keeping the rest of the world out, as opposed to keeping the rest of the world from getting in (which is what China and a few others have been up to) on a scale that's unprescidented. Technically, I'm sure it's possible to accomplish this, but I'm still uncertain as to the practicality or the wisdom of doing so.

Lesse: Microsoft, MPAA, RIAA, Disney, etc (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041437)

First of all, in a debate, if you start calling names, then you've effectively lost any chance of being listened to. Anyone can be told their an idiot. Use info to support a claim, then go from there.

He has an incredibly legit point here.
Given the choice, I'd pack up my digital bags and be user #1 on this new Internet.

Only a small percentage remember the days when there wasn't a single corporate interest on the web. It was pure, unfettered information.

While sure, that information is still here, its publication and therefore purpose has been lost.

Want to learn how to program? Pay gobs of money, and even then your programs are restricted by American corporations. (dont use a file format you didn't create from scratch, dont make a text-to-speech for .pdf files, dont step on the grass when you're surrounded by fields!)

America, whether we like it or not, we have abused the Internet as a medium.

I can understand where he is coming from (1)

SerpentMage (13390) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041313)

Not being an American citizen I do see the problems presented. The USA has a wonderful (meant seriously) constitution. When the founding fathers created the US they knew what they wanted and how to achieve.

Sadly though in the last ten years that has not been the case. The USA of 1776 is not the USA of 2002 in any form whatsoever. Those values held precious back then have been given up slowly bit by bit in the name of "security", "good for the people", etc, etc.

Creating a second Internet is simply an option so that the people are not at whim of a politician in another country. Not a nice situation, but giving the current adminstration and its pro-Big company stance, totally understandable....

Re:I can understand where he is coming from (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041360)

Yay! A non-American with some sense. The US today is trash compared to what it was back then. Career politicians and the lower class have ruined it. ...... A divided internet is stupid. The US doesn't tell any other country what they can have on their servers, and anyone that disagrees is an imbecile.

Re:I can understand where he is coming from (1)

money_shot (301137) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041373)

Maybe you should study the constitution a bit. In 1776 it was meant for land-owning white men only. I think we've come a long way from that despite a little media hype here and there. Even the way that we frame the consitution is different. If the founders knew how broadly rights would be applied, they might not have ratified the constitution in the first place.

- Money_shot

Re:I can understand where he is coming from (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041390)

Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard.

The world in 1776 is not the world of 2002 whatsoever. Like the founding fathers thought we'd be riding in automobiles, surfing the internet, going into outerspace. Im sure they didn't think the population would go so high so fast, and the value of just plain information become such a high commodity.

Re:I can understand where he is coming from (1)

PMadavi (583271) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041399)

I was wondering if you could give some examples of how legislature in the US has gotten in your way.

I've always felt the net to be relatively free of interference. Seems to me that one can still find/do pretty much anything on the net.

Re:I can understand where he is coming from (4, Insightful)

Jobe_br (27348) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041419)

Not to be pro-American or anti-American, but from what I've seen in the news, America hasn't been the major force in overstepping national boundaries or even enforcing national laws on the Internet at-large. France forced Yahoo! to remove questionable content, right? I thought Italy or the Vatican was doing something to that effect ... oh, that was taking down the site of someone who lived in Italy but was hosted in the US, never mind. Australia seems to be hell bent on restrictions, as well (not that they're in Europe ... just offering that up as well).

And who was it that forced eBay to remove certain items? France again? I might be getting mixed up a bit, but by and large, it seems that other countries are enforcing their laws, which in some instances are more restrictive, onto American soil.

Private (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041314)

Private parts?

eh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041320)

Just another attempt by the fucking Euro-pees to try to feel important VS the States. Dem frigging underachieving commies!!

zerg (2)

Lord Omlette (124579) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041322)

Ah... a heartfelt desire to shut out the rest of the world and ignore it. Where have I seen that before ^^;;

Re:zerg (1)

mjjk2 (328266) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041450)

Not the rest of the world, just the US.

What a hypocrit! (3, Informative)

Omega1045 (584264) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041325)

What about France suing eBay to take items off their web site hosted on American soil, or any number of student laws, suits, etc going on with countries suing/charging US firms for wrong doing on the Internet? Sorry Mr. Thompson! While the US does its share of stupid stuff, we by no means have a monopoly on stupidity as a whole. Look at WW1: a war over an assinated guy that nobody even cared about, not even the people form his own country.

Re:What a hypocrit! (0, Troll)

greymond (539980) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041343)

or those fucking gay nazi germans banning rotten.com

Re:What a hypocrit! (1)

greymond (539980) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041366)

just in case - the nazi remark is not for the ww1 remark just the frenchy french part - i do know some history

just felt i had to clarify since i didnt want to get flamed

What? (1)

Omega1045 (584264) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041370)

Uhhhh... what?

Re:What a hypocrit! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041477)

I heard this whole bruhaha started when the French govt discovered its people had access to the usenet newsgroup rec.arts.movies.jerrylewis.sux0rs.sux0rs.sux0rs

Re:What a hypocrit! (1)

mother_superius (227373) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041480)

Oh, come on!

WWI was almost 90 years ago. Would it be a valid argument to dismiss the Bush administration on the basis that Wilson unconstitutionally persecuted socialists? Of course not.

Brilliant ! (3, Interesting)

Maserati (8679) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041329)

A new root DNS. A new set of policies. Explicit disregard for precedents and policies created by American lawyers and (paid-for) politicians. Slightly lower bar for the Internet Death Penalty. IPv6 only. Standards-based. Vendor neutral. Consumer and techie friendly, megacorp neutral. Rational domain-name dispute policy. No ICANN.

This actually sounds tempting. I doubt it will happen but the Eurohackers will have a lovely sandbox to play in. It might be more useful than the cryptocorporate anarchy that is the Internet today. I wonder if they'll let USAians fed up with the current net join ?

Postal workers spying? (1)

g_bit (253703) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041330)


It has a government which respects free speech yet tries to persuade postal workers to spy on people as they delivered their mail


Anyone have any idea what this person is talking about here?

Re:Postal workers spying? (1)

Cyno01 (573917) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041387)

they're talking about that civillian spy initiative thing, it was mentioned last week sometime, the governement wants people who have acess to places they cant get to without a warrant (postal workers, cable guys etc) to report suspicious activity, land of the free indeed

Re:Postal workers spying? (1)

gallen1234 (565989) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041402)

I believe he's refering to President Bush's abortive TIPS program that would have somehow encouraged people who work in the community to report suspicious behavior without actually spying on their fellow citizens.

Re:Postal workers spying? (1)

baldass_newbie (136609) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041455)

He's talking about the TIPS program where US Citizens spy and report suspicious activities. The DOJ was hoping the USPS would be involved. They declined.

Re:Postal workers spying? (1)

GoatEnigma (586728) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041459)

Yep - I read this story in a Canadian newspaper. In one of Bush's speeches a few months ago he called on trade workers to keep their eyes open while they went about their daily business.

While I can't remember much about it, it was called operation TIPS.... here's the first article I found on it:

http://www.motherjones.com/web_exclusives/features /news/tips.html [motherjones.com]

Are you really surprised that Bush would call for something like that?

Re:Postal workers spying? (1)

baldass_newbie (136609) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041474)

Are you really surprised that Bush would call for something like that?

Really, people should just focus on their job and ignore suspicious activity.

Sheesh. The nerve.

Re:Postal workers spying? (1)

PMadavi (583271) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041476)

Is anyone else just terribly embarrased everytime our president says something and it makes the international news? Dear god almighty, enough with the nonesense talk, W.

The whole tips thing is just embarrasing.

Liberal Bias in the internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041334)

There is a liberal bias in the Internet, I can understand why Europeans would be upset.

There is no liberal bias in the American Mass media.

When did Europe start using the internet? Didn't know cat5 came in lengths of 100's of miles.

what

wee (0)

Rapsey (241302) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041336)

with all the stupid US organizations like the RIAA and laws that seem to be taken out of george orwells 1984 (dmca) i would loove a EU only network.

restructure ICANN (0)

Omega Prime (265024) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041337)

At the moment the naming bodies are hughly biased towards american companys. ICANN should be an international organization, or at least should be replaced by one

- insert 2 cents for the first flame

All we need is less . . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041342)

Europeans, their crappy music, accents, and bad food.

All the VW driving fags are Europe's fault. BMW snobs, and Benz driving morons.

Fuck them.

Mod -1 troll (2, Insightful)

kalidasa (577403) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041349)

C'mon, didn't you READ that article? It seems like the Reg has given up on waiting for "flame of the week" candidates to fill up their mailbag, and now they're developing their own content for FOTW. A particular favorite (not) was the reference to the US Constituion as the product of a bunch of activist merchants and "rebellious slave owners." Accurate, but deliberately inflammatory nonsense.

The issue isn't the US, it's the current US administration and the current US Congress and their bending over backward to accommodate the big multinationals. The US Constitution most certainly isn't the issue, written as it is with a very healthy dose of British inspiration (don't like our First Amendment? Blame your former Latin Secretary Mr. Milton).

Yeah really.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041430)

I preferred it when the president screwed the intern instead of screwing the country.

This article shoulda been rejected... (1, Flamebait)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041353)

...its not US-centric enough!


(yeah, bad attempt at humor)

If taken to its ultimate stupidity... (2, Funny)

Apocalypse111 (597674) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041356)

Dateline 2012:

The North London Internet was again attacked by the South London Internet hackers in an attempt to regain control of their fileservers in the North's webspace. The fact that many of these hackers could simply walk a few blocks and physically take the servers back to their own private webspace seems not to have occured to them.

The United States, which is still a part of the Non-European Internet (the mainstream computer network used by the rest of the world) was jubilant, and representatives from across the nation were quoted as saying, "Ha-ha!".

Tell us to go fly a kite... (5, Insightful)

jvmatthe (116058) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041359)

Look, we've got some bad laws on the books. Those who read /. are aware of the problems but aren't a powerful enough or mobilized enough group (Slashdotting of weak servers notwithstanding) to get things changed significantly politically. Other countries can help the situation not by playing isolationist but by simply refusing to recognize clearly ludicrous U.S. laws. A private network is not the way to go.

As we often tell people to let the marketplace decide things, we should let the governing marketplace decide things as well. If the U.S. laws are cramping your country's style, then tell the U.S. politicians and companies politely that they can take a long walk on a short pier, and you'll deal with them when they have reasonable laws. If the U.S. wants to stay engaged, then it'll clean up its act.

In short: we'll oppose the draconian crap from the inside, and y'all do it from the outside, and eventually things will change.

Great idea... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041363)

..if it means less French/British/Italian/Spanish/Portugese/Polish/Ge rman/Russian SPAM in my mailbox, I'm all for it!
Honestly, can Europe be any more arrogant?? (On second thought, don't answer that!)

As Bender would have said it... (5, Funny)

ethelred (587527) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041372)

I'll just make my own Internet. With blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the Internet!

Oh, the hypocrisy.. (2, Insightful)

joshua404 (590829) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041375)

1. Isolationism, brilliant thinking!

2. How Italian Police shut down US Webservers [slashdot.org]

If you pulled this guy's face off I bet you'd find Pat Buchanan underneath.

Correct me if I'm wrong... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041376)

...but they came to OUR country, hijacked OUR planes, flying them into OUR buildings, killing OUR people.

And we're butting into WHOSE business now? A bunch of backward Islamic fundamentalists who haven't made a significant contribution to the West since the zero.

And this upsets paleo-liberals with too much time on their hands to do anything except rip someone with an MBA from Harvard who has speech problems. Real f**king mature.

Besides, WTF is the UK if not the 14th colony or 51st state or whatever.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041467)

The UK a 51st state? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Don't make me laugh. I'd piss on them before I recognized them as part of the USA.

Bill Thompson (2, Funny)

selectspec (74651) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041378)

Bill Thompson is such an asshole that if you ordered a train load of assholes and only he showed up, you wouldn't complain.

Thanks for reminding me, Bill, why my ancestors left that ever diminishing and less relevant mound in the North Atlantic to come to America.

Thanks (2)

RumGunner (457733) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041422)

You're probably going to get modded down selectspec, but you gave me a laugh, intended or not. Thanks.

.

Terrible Article (2)

RumGunner (457733) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041379)

Everyone always thinks that they have the best answer. Don't like something about the current internet? Blame America. And subscribe to the "All-New and Improved Bill Thompson 1337 |-|@X04 Interwebnetsite!"

This attitude is why we have so much troulbe organizing grassroots politics in this country. Rather than trying to patch up the existing, we'll just sink the whole thing and start from scratch.

.

She's legal now (3, Funny)

Subcarrier (262294) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041381)

it has "been so extensively abused by the United States and its politicians, lawyers and programmers...

Programmers? Errm, yeah, ok. Besides, who cares anyway, now that the Internet is over 18.

interesting (1)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041382)

while the us government is evil in their abuses of the web, and corperations suck anyway, the internet is a us government research product. I believe this more or less does give the us a good bit of say over stuff.

and Europe thinks we are ruining the internet? (1)

TrollsamaBinLaden (599568) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041385)

Lets compare the average US porn vs. most of the stuff from france. I have probably been more scarred seeing women with more armpit hair than an ape than anything posted in the US. At least the goatse guy isn't trying to pose as a sexy bitch. All you guys that surf porn on irc know exactly what I mean. ...well at least I will admit to it.

Many tried... (3, Insightful)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041386)

And failed...

The whole reason why the internet works as well as it does now is because everyone plays along (sort of). I can tell you right now that it would take an act of $DEITY to seperate this network we have now.

My stance on it? It's all hyperbole. You can try to shake the wires, but it'll all even out in the end. No worries, I'm just going to sit back, watching companies trying to stunt growth and kill "threats", and watching it pop up somewhere else again.

An european "internet" is bullshit. It just won't work. I doubt it would live long, since people like to communicate across the globe, and that means _all_ across it. If this takes off somehow, I can predict that some people _will_ set up gateways to and from places outside Europe.

Therefore, nothing will really change. This guy is just blowing of steam. Nothing to worry about.

Um... why? (1)

dacarr (562277) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041392)

The internet is just that - a fscking network. It's cable and sattelites and other similar media designed to schlep 1's and 0's across to other machines. Now why the hell do europeans need to sep from the main? For cryin' in the mud, if you don't want to see something, go elsewhere!

The real agenda (2, Flamebait)

TWR (16835) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041395)

What he wants isn't freedom, it's CONTROL. Notice that "Libertarians" are part of the complaint. Can't have people in favor of liberty and personal freedom in Europe's Internet! They might start to question the wisdom of that unelected government in Brussels. The message is "Just let us, the self-appointed intelligensia, tell you what to think. Everyone will be a lot happier that way."

Every day, I thank God my anscestors fled that continent.

-jon

MWWW (3, Funny)

ThereIsNoSporkNeo (587688) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041396)

Ah yes.

And in the year 2002 the MWWW (Mostly World Wide Web) was created, after the previous attempt, the WWW (World Wide Web) was determined to be too worldwide. The only people prevented from joining the MWWW were inhabitants of the USA and a guy from Britain named Murphy who no one liked anyway.

Next, we come to the robot wars of 2027...

Playing devil's advocate a little (2)

Space cowboy (13680) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041397)

I think the internet should remain global. Absolutely and unequivocably.

But to do the subject some justice :-) With the US becoming more and more isolationist over time, it's hardly surprising others are reacting in the same way. There are *more* people in the EU than the US. There are ~1/5 the population of the US in the UK! Why should't they demand more representation ?

The US legal system (which is where a *lot* of the problems are coming from) is very much a big-business-friendly institution; since most of the congressmen are funded by big business as well, it's hardly surprising that the internet is being mauled with the same fangs that savage the "common person" in the US. There is also much more of a "who do I sue" attitude within the US than just about anywhere else.

Still, it's clearly a nonsense to advocate separation, and it's not clear to me that other countries are overall any better. The term "swings and roundabouts" comes to mind.

Simon.

Roll the dice (2)

ajs (35943) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041403)

Even if there's very little chance of doing it right, those are odds that the Europeans should take. They're being treated like crap right now, and that has to stop. At least if they're being treated like crap by their own people, they have a chance to address it.

And who knows, perhaps the best case scenario will come true.

last post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041411)

For years, I've been one of those who tries to get first post, to make sure that my mindless crap is the first thing heard.

It is now that I choose to resign this position and hand it off to my learned students. Well done, everybody who now triumphs with pride, "first post!"

My reasons are neither political, personal, or otherwise. No, merely an incarnation of "all good things must come to an end". I will miss Slashdot, from the trolls to the karma whoring to the hot grits guy. You, sir, are a genius with your witty comments about pouring hot grits down your pants.

Thank you Slashdot for the memories and the joy that I've shared with all of you. It's truly been a priveledge.

Sincerely,
Anonymous Coward #3

Makes sense (2)

www.sorehands.com (142825) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041413)

Alot of what he says does make sense.


The US laws is a hodge podge of laws that developed in part by trying to read the minds of the founding fathers.

Is this guy Al Gore? The internet was invented in the USA.

Well...yeah (1)

kalimar (42718) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041420)

Granted if Europe makes it's own Internet, then wouldn't they have a monopoly on it? Of course, if countries stopped letting themselves get walked over by the US (think DeCSS etc), maybe the US wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the Internet.
Seriously, other than the fact that the USG is an overbearing bully who wants to control everything it can and can't see, why do other countries let the US dictate their laws?

Concept: The Internet is global.

  • If JoeBlow in Country A goes to a site hosted in Country B, and views material considered illegal in Country A, then Country A should go after JoeBlow for importing illegal materials. But in no way should the site in Country B be held accountable to the laws in Country A.
  • If you are in Country A and run a site in Country B, then you need to be held accountable to the laws of both. Why? Because if you do something that is illegal in A, then you are exporting illegal stuff and if it's illegal in B, then you are importing illegal stuff.

This would get rid of those things like the US exerting it's will on the populations of other countries simply because something is illegal in the US.

Can it happen? Yes. Will it? That's up to the rest of the world. If they let the US continue, then it won't. If they stand up and stop the US from doing it, then other things happen (like the US arresting foreign nationals if they come to the US, or other countries arresting US nationals, or commerce with the US stops, etc).

The US needs to stop thinking it owns the Internet or other countries will follow the example set by European countries and look to start their own 'internets'. Do that and you end up with a bunch of disjointed networks that might or might not be able to talk to each other and the whole idea of a global network goes down the tubes.

Shyeah. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041421)

A European internet.. now THAT would be funny. What would be on it?? All those silly brits are using US sites. Is there one good site in Europe? Man, I'd be really ticked if I were in Europe and some moron was trolling about setting up an Internet because he has penis envy.

I wouldn't mind a EU-only-net .... (1)

Ark42 (522144) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041423)


So long as I can get access to it. (from the USA)

Make it voluntary (1)

cardshark2001 (444650) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041429)

Why doesn't he go ahead and set up his new internet, and make it voluntary for ISP's/consumers?

Europeans who want our content can subscribe to the regular internet, and those who don't can subscribe to the new one.

Oh, wait, maybe because it would be a huge FLOP.

Ahem (5, Insightful)

Theodore Logan (139352) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041431)

His logical fallacy is , of course, thinking that the US has a monopoly on this kind of thing.

First of all, this is is not a "logical fallacy," but, if anything, a faulty premise. That term has been subject to enough abuse already.

Second, while it is true that the US may not be the only country in which politicians follow agendas that may be in contrast with the will of the public, it is nonetheless the case that politicians in the US are extravagantly prone to imposing unwarranted restrictions on technologies of this kind. I would say, more so than the EU, or so the record suggest. I cannot disprove your indirect claim that the EU would treat an Internet of its own the way the US has been treating what's in place now, but I also can not see why you would make this assumption.

It just Globalization at its finest (1)

RawCode (464152) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041433)

We have all these trade agreements to help unify the global marketplace, opened up our borders to allow the freemovement of our people, and soon we'll have a common currency world wide. Its time to get with reality that there is no unique culture anymore, but an American-centric Global culture. Making a second internet is not gonna stop it.

Not going to happen (3, Insightful)

John Jorsett (171560) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041434)

As I read the piece, this guy has a problem with an internet that can't be 'tailored' (i.e. censored) to a given nation's tastes. Quite frankly, that's an internet that I don't want to see. And I don't think we will see it. There'd have to be some sort of interface between the various 'national' nets, and those interfaces would constitute chokepoints that would allow all sorts of mischief. Any attempt at doing what he wants would be doomed to failure.

Oh, and nice editing job. Maybe he should worry less about the internet and more about proofreading his own work.

This guy is an idiot (3, Insightful)

RealTimeFreeAgent (551563) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041435)

Unless we can take back the Net from the libertarians

Libertarians? That's almost as absurd as saying we have to take the Net back from the communists.

An important factor in Europe's favour is that we retain a belief that governments are a good thing, that political control is both necessary and desirable

Data flows into and out of Europe would be properly regulated and controlled to ensure that neither spam nor viruses came in, and that no personal data went out without explicit consent.

So basically he wants to trust the government to look at all outbound and inbound packets, presumably looking for spam, viruses or personal data? And he thinks this power won't be abused? What European wants to sign up for this Orwellian scheme? Just because he dressed it up in an anti-American screed doesn't make it a good idea.

I guess it is a European mind set (3, Interesting)

Camel Pilot (78781) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041436)

From the article

An important factor in Europe's favour is that we retain a belief that governments are a good thing, that political control is both necessary and desirable, and that laws serve the people.

Hitler/Stalin/Mosalini/etc... (this list is long) would have agreed heartly and would have eagerly supported this notion.

Jefferson by the way would not. A few Jefferson quotes by contrast:

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government"

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive."

Oh well.

Fallacious Fallacies & Redundancy (5, Insightful)

FreeUser (11483) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041444)

His logical fallacy is , of course, thinking that the US has a monopoly on this kind of thing. [emphesis added]

Assuming America has a "monopoly" on abusive potical, technical, or jurisprudence wrt to the net isn't a logical fallacy, it is a factual fallacy. The logic is sound, the assumption made upon which the argument is based is what is inaccurate. That isn't the same thing as a logical fallacy, such as ad homonem attacks, circular reasoning, appeals to authority, and the like.

All that having been said, I found nothing in that article that seemed to imply America has a monopoly on this behavior, just that, under the current Copyright Cartels (is there any doubt in anyone's mind who is calling the shots in D.C. these days?), we, or rather America, are by far the worst offendors.

One of the original strengths in the design of the internet is its ability to route around damage. Copyright, censorship, physical outage, political repression ... all these things represent damage as far as the internet, a system designed to propogate and share information, is concerned.

If the Europeans want to build some redundancy into the routing and infrastructure of the net by building a network that can sustain itself independently, should America drop off the net completely, more power to them. The more redundancy, and the more capacity there is for the Internet to route around the kind of damage government censors, politicians, and copyright holders create, the better.

The USA Register (5, Informative)

_xeno_ (155264) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041445)

American readers (that's right, as in everyone in North America) might wanna try The USA Register [theregus.com] site for (slightly) faster access since then you don't have to access a webserver that's across the pond.

The story is available on the US site [theregus.com] .

I doubt Slashdot can Slashdot the Register, but it might help American readers, especially those who missed the creation of the USA Register. The USA Register is basically the same content as the Register, but it drops some of the UK specific news (as in, UK elections and other events that are unlikely to matter to people who don't live there). As far as I know, there is no US-specific content, but several of their writers turn out to live in the US - so who knows...

Thank God... (1)

R2.0 (532027) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041463)

Now our European friends will have their own private clubhouse so they can bitch about the US as much as they want w/o any noisome dissent from those crude, unprincipled warmongers across the Atlantic.

As for saving the global network from US domination by creating a parallel, smaller, private network - isn't that like fighting the Baby Bell monopolies by running a bunch of tin cans and string?

Hang on a tic... (2)

CommieLib (468883) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041465)

If he's worried about the spread of U.S. influence, shouldn't he want to block U.S. Internet from Europe, rather than blocking European Internet from U.S.?

I find his candor refreshing; anytime you talk about taking things back from the libertarians, start buying stock in fascism...

neato. (2)

_ph1ux_ (216706) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041466)

sounds great - can I join.... I'm in california?

Spam... (2)

Dutchmaan (442553) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041473)

I don't know about them... but most of my spam seems to come from Russia!

thats right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4041478)

USA citizens abusing INTERNET

Too much easy to believe, USA spam , USA propaganda,

would be because USA thinks its the world hero??
because USA say they are good and every body else is bad???
because they use internet to spy and deploy virus??
because they mask spies as ONU inspectors or researchers and scientist??
because USA violations to internationals laws, THey sign??

because they are the worst polluters of the world??

What is the REAL issue? (2)

RobinH (124750) | more than 12 years ago | (#4041482)

Each country or jurisdiction certainly has the rights to govern traffic that travel through its own data networks. The problem (if it's really a problem) is that information has no borders. If I, in Canada, request a file from Germany, half of the packets may travel over one satellite connection, and the other half may bounce across a transatlantic cable. Who knows how many countries it crosses during the journey.

Here are some resolutions:

1) Include routing info with the packet, such as "Not legal in the US", and the routing algorithms have to deal with that. This is, of course, completely impractical.

2) Provide a direct network path between each pair of countries, and route packets from source to destination country directly. This is also impractical.

3) All countries connected to the internet need to agree that data in transit is in "neutral" territory. Only the hosting site and the requesting computer are subject to the laws of their respective jurisdictions.

#3 is more practical. Note that it does NOT preclude eavesdropping by countries in the middle, but it does preclude the use of content filters unless the source or destination of the information is in your own jurisdiction.

Of course, I can't see any government wilfully giving up the ability to filter the data travelling on networks in their country, so I can't see #3 working. The rest of the world will have to come up with a way to route information around certain oppressive governments, particularly if those counties are a bottleneck for information on the internet (as in the U.S. right now).
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