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#debian & IRC Politics

Hemos posted more than 10 years ago | from the ah-the-joys-of-politics dept.

Debian 274

eyez writes "Apparently, the recent decision of OPN(now freenode) to ask for donations has ruffled the feathers of a few debian people. This article on DebianPlanet talks about the current discussion on the debian mailing lists which talks about the possibility of moving #debian (and #debian*) off of OPN altogether."

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274 comments

#slackware (3, Informative)

(startx) (37027) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090516)

#slackware is allready splitting, and it appears #kernelnewbies has allready left too...... lilo' really needs to quit whinning and at least attempt to get a real job.

Re:#slackware (2)

SteelX (32194) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090526)

I'm not familiar with this. What's the story behind #slackware splitting?

Re:#slackware (2)

(startx) (37027) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090575)

not a huge story, just a few of the #slackware people (mostly the ones who actively help people) when to oftc.net because of lilo's bitching on opn.net.

Re:#slackware -- The Story (2, Informative)

Nemith (114402) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090605)

Being one of the few who has parted #slackware on OPN, I would like to explain this.

I used to be an operator on #slackware on OPN (freenode) for about 3 months and before that I was a regular in #slackware for about a year. Recently a lot of the ops and members had a falling out with the channel owner (robrock) due to his eradic behavor. He was banning people for no reason, threating to leave and turn the channel over to lilo and just acting childish. Quite a few of use (including 3 ops) have seen this behavior and decieded to move to a new network where we could start over again. So #slackware on oftc.net (open and free technology community) was born, and athough it was allredy registered the current owner was very nice and inviting.

There has been some talk about moving ever since the wallops of lilo begging for money started, the fallout with the owner put it over the top. We now enjoy chatting on oftc.net without either of these burndens
Also, i'd like to note that either of the two #slackware's (opn and oftc are NOT official slackware channels as one doesn not exist but we all try hard to help out people as much as we can.
So now you know the story, and would love to have you all in #slackware on oftc.net (hope to see your there!)

~Nemith

Re:#slackware -- The Story (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090750)

Ya i find one of the biggest problems with opn isn't just the begging. It's the way lilo likes to meddle in everyones business. Just becuase you are an ircop and run some servers doesn't mean you should go around meddling in everyones business. Just keep the servers running smoothly and leave the users alone. If lilo decides you aren't "friendly" enough by his standards he will try and take over your channel or ban you. Just ask the #freebsd people that had problems with this. Running an irc network means you keep stuff running smoothly, not go around dictating everyones behavior.

Oh ya you don't waste donations intended for the network on your ridiculously large cell phone bill.

opn is just obnoxious.

Re:#slackware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090555)

the founder of the channel decided to ban people without giving reason was one of the biggest reasons, and the fact that lilo feels the need to beg does not help.

Re:#slackware (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090568)

Lilo. I fucked her.

With regards to ADC.

#kernelnewbies (Re:#slackware) (3, Informative)

Rik van Riel (4968) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090747)

Yes, the #kernelnewbies [kernelnewbies.org] channel was moved over at the end of june already, together with #linux.nl, #dsbl and (I think, not sure) #php.

Of course, we moved to OFTC [oftc.net], which is run very well by a number of ex-OPN staffers. As an added bonus, their ircd has some nice protection against flooders and spammers, so the move to OFTC has technical advantages too...

Join the Navy! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#4090523)

Your mother and I have had it up to here with your lying around the house. You must take responsibility for your life. Son, you need to get up off your backside and join the freakin' Navy!

The word "monkey" is of uncertain origin; its first known usage was in 1498 when it was used in the literary work Reynard the Fox as the name of the son of Martin the Ape. "Monkey" has numerous nautical meanings, such as a small coastal trading vessel, single masted with a square sail of the 16th and 17th centuries; a small wooden cask in which grog was carried after issue from a grog-tub to the seamen's messes in the Royal Navy; a type of marine steam reciprocating engine where two engines were used together in tandem on the same propeller shaft; and a sailor whose job involved climbing and moving swiftly (usage dating to 1858). A "monkey boat" was a narrow vessel used on canals (usage dating to 1858); a "monkey gaff" is a small gaff on large merchant vessels; a "monkey jacket" is a close fitting jacket worn by sailors; "monkey spars" are small masts and yards on vessels used for the "instruction and exercise of boys;" and a "monkey pump" is a straw used to suck the liquid from a small hole in a cask; a "monkey block" was used in the rigging of sailing ships; "monkey island" is a ship's upper bridge; "monkey drill" was calisthenics by naval personnel (usage dating to 1895); and "monkey march" is close order march by US Marine Corps personnel (usage dating to 1952). [Sources: Cassidy, Frederick G. and Joan Houston Hall eds. Dictionary of American Regional English. vol.3 (Cambridge MA: Harvard University Press, 1996): 642; Wilfred Granville. A Dictionary of Sailors' Slang (London: Andre Deutch, 1962): 77; Peter Kemp ed. Oxford Companion to Ships & the Sea. (New York: Oxford University; Press, 1976): 556; The Oxford English Dictionary. New York: Oxford University Press, 1933; J.E. Lighter ed. Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. (New York: Random House, 1994): 580.; and Eric Partridge A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English. 8th ed. (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company): 917.] "Monkey" has also been used within an ordnance context. A "monkey" was a kind of gun or cannon (usage dating to 1650). "Monkey tail" was a short hand spike, a lever for aiming a carronade [short-sight iron cannon]. A "powder monkey" was a boy who carried gun powder from the magazine to cannons and performed other ordnance duties on a warship (usage dating to 1682). [Source: The Oxford English Dictionary. New York: Oxford University Press, 1933.] The first recorded use of the term "brass monkey" appears to dates to 1857 when it was used in an apparently vulgar context by C.A. Abbey in his book Before the Mast, where on page 108 it says "It would freeze the tail off a brass monkey." [Source: Lighter, J.E. ed. Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. (New York: Random House, 1994): 262.]

It has often been claimed that the "brass monkey" was a holder or storage rack in which cannon balls (or shot) were stacked on a ship. Supposedly when the "monkey" with its stack of cannon ball became cold, the contraction of iron cannon balls led to the balls falling through or off of the "monkey." This explanation appears to be a legend of the sea without historical justification. In actuality, ready service shot was kept on the gun or spar decks in shot racks (also known as shot garlands in the Royal Navy) which consisted of longitudinal wooden planks with holes bored into them, into which round shot (cannon balls) were inserted for ready use by the gun crew. These shot racks or garlands are discussed in: Longridge, C. Nepean. The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. (Annapolis MD: Naval Institute Press, 1981): 64. A top view of shot garlands on the upper deck of a ship-of-the-line is depicted in The Visual Dictionary of Ships and Sailing. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 1991): 17.

"Brass monkey" is also the nickname for the Cunard Line's house flag which depicts a gold lion rampant on a red field. [Source: Rogers, John. Origins of Sea Terms. (Mystic CT: Mystic Seaport Museum, 1984): 23.

Re:Join the Navy! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#4090535)

You must take responsibility for your life. Son, you need to get up off your backside and join the freakin' Navy!

Um, if I were to join the Navy at your advice, that means I'm no longer taking responsibility for my life.

Re:Join the Navy! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#4090543)

Your mother and I have had it up to here with your lying around the house.

Yeah? You mother and I have had it everywhere in the house.

If you build it, they will come (2)

danpbrowning (149453) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090524)

If Debian goes with another IRC server, then that's fine. I don't think spamming solicitations for donations (even if they are for a paid salary position) is all that bad. But if you (or Debian) can do better and build a different IRC server, then I'm sure that is where the people will go (or come), for spam-free IRC.

Re:If you build it, they will come (5, Informative)

dzym (544085) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090546)

That's not quite the point.

For some better insight as to what was going on at the time, you should read at the very least this page [ecce.co.uk].

See petition here [printf.net].

Read Eterm developer Michael Jennings' thoughts on the matter here [kainx.org].

Re:If you build it, they will come (2, Informative)

throwaway18 (521472) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090657)

you should read at the very least this page [ecce.co.uk]

NTK [ntk.net] mentioned this in their usual style in this edition, [ntk.net] third paragraph in the news section.

Re:If you build it, they will come (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090669)

and it should be noted here that jordan.openprojects.net did de-link and is now hooked up to oftc

It's about time. (0)

PFAK (524350) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090525)

I have had to put up with this OPN for awhile, other large IRC Networks such as EFnet, and DALnet do not run donations, nor do they pay their works. DALnet doesnt even accept donations are far as I know, and gets attacked quiet a bit so they probably actually do need them. I think that lilo should stop what he has been doing, or he is going to totally destroy his network which wasn't so good in the beggining.

Other channels too (1)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090528)

The incessant whining and stupid politics is driving many channels away.

Most are heading to Open and Free Technology Community irc.oftc.net, that is where kernelnewbies has gone and some others.

debian planet took it down (4, Interesting)

eyez (119632) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090530)

Debianplanet took that article down about an hour ago. I'm not sure why.

Re:debian planet took it down (3, Informative)

trelaneopn (563678) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090581)

from an "inside source" it appears debian planet is staying out of this.

Gas, Ass or Grass (0, Troll)

Centinel (594459) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090531)

....you know the rest

Apropos and succinct (1)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090627)

so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you get modded down for it.

It seems to be a pretty simple proposition; lilo is requesting money to continue providing a service. Nobody had any complaints when things were free. The general sentiment I'm seeing expressed is that he should continue to provide the service for free (and shut up about it) rather than ask for donations. I've tried taking this approach with a couple of local businesses ("You know, I could probably build my own surfaces in a couple of hours for the cost of raw materials so are you willing to make a counteroffer on this teak furniture?" or "My parents never charged me for food so why do you?") but they were less than sympathetic.

This type of attitude makes a mockery of our community in general, and explains why for-real businesses have such a hard time taking us seriously. Why does lilo owe everybody a free IRC server just because others are willing to provide one?

Re:Apropos and succinct (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090658)

1. lilo doesn't actually own a server last I checked.
2. Just about every other IRC network does fine without donations

Funny how efnet or undernet can do just fine without donations, and they are 100 times larger. lilo just wants a free meal ticket from this apparently.

The only one here grubbing for a free lunch is lilo.

Posting anon to prevent perma-ban from the childish lilo.

Re:Apropos and succinct (2, Insightful)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090715)

I have no particular axe to grind... I've never spoken to lilo and I haven't been on OPN in a fairly long time (I do want to make this clear because it seems like people are taking this one personally). My question is simply this: shouldn't it be up to the person providing the service to decide whether or not to charge for it? He could have chosen methods less likely to inflame users of his service, to be sure, but I don't think that it's a particularly bad goal to become self-sufficient within the community. I don't know when the shift between Free and free occurred, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that we should start dictating terms by which people must contribute to the rest of us.

Re:Apropos and succinct (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090771)

Hey he can keep groveling for cash if he wants.

No one is saying he can't.

Everyone is saying, we'll just go somewhere else.

OPN isn't that big of a network, he wants like a full time salary just to run an irc network...

Efnet has literally 200 times the user OPN does and they don't have to beg anyone. But then again they aren't trying to be a professional IRCop either...

If you wanna beg fine, everyone will just go somewhere else.

Is someone putting a gun to his head or something? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090799)

He's free to do what he wants, his users/server-providers/etc are free to give him their collective middle finger ... and we are free to sit at the sidelines making smart ass comments about it.

Aint freedom grand? Anyway, its a done deal now ... put a fork in OPN, its done.

That said, it would be nice if people who provide a valuable service to the open source community could manage to live on community contributions ... the problem is that there are too many people willing to do the same thing for free :)

Re:Apropos and succinct (2)

dzym (544085) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090712)

Why does lilo owe everybody a free IRC server just because others are willing to provide one?
Because every one of the server sponsors on OPN itself were willing to provide a free IRC server to lilo.

Re:Apropos and succinct (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090783)

so how come efnet, undernet, quakenet, ircnet etc etc don't need to solicite donations via such an intrusive method, but lilo's puny 7k-user-base irc network, which gets all its bandwidth and hardware donated, does?

Anyways, the point is- irc.debian.org points to OPN. OPN spams its users, which is not in line with debian politics. irc.debian.org should point elsewhere.

reason for donations (4, Insightful)

crazney (194622) | more than 10 years ago | (#4090532)

Just incase you haven't been listening. The reason for the plee for donations is to go into the pocket of the IRCops - mainly 1: Lilo.
(no, not to maintain the servers, bandwidth, etc etc).

Why? Because he doesnt have a job and is finding it hard to survive.
The reason he claims is because he spends so much time admining OPN..

Has he thought of maybe offloading some of the work to someone else? Probably, but then he'd have to get a job.

Re:reason for donations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#4090551)

Why? Because he doesnt have a job and is finding it hard to survive.
The reason he claims is because he spends so much time admining OPN..

How hard is it to admin an IRC server anyway? If a script kiddie can do it with a rootkit, I'm sure this guy can do it too.

Re:reason for donations (2, Interesting)

ThatComputerGuy (123712) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090595)

I can't speak on the long-term, but I do know that recently OpenProjects has been aiming for a different goal than the current presence of just another IRC network, and for this lilo must remain at the top, at least until OPN is closer to this goal. This goal is the reason behind the name change to Peer Directed Projects Center/Freenode.

From what I understand (I spoke with lilo about this maybe a month ago, so things may have changed), OPN/PDPC/Freenode is looking to become, as the name applies, sort of a hub that would encompass all other IRC networks that serve opensource projects. Think of it all as one big ass relay-bot, that would simplify IRC to the point where different networks are somewhat transparent. Freenode would still continue to run it's own IRC servers as part of this larger network, so you could either be on the Freenode IRC network, an independent IRC network (non-Freenode), or the larger "supernetwork".

Like I said, I only heard of this during the stage when it was being discussed privately.. A little may have changed, or a lot may have changed. My understanding of the concept may now be much different from what is actually being implemented. Anyone with corrections, feel free to chime in. And for the official word on Freenode (which I have not read lately), see freenode.info [freenode.info].

Re:reason for donations (0, Flamebait)

trelaneopn (563678) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090604)

and honestly, do you suck his dick in your freetime? or his, he seems to have quite a lot of it of late, don't you think?

Re:reason for donations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090832)

That's a fucking gay plan.

Let me guess for the "priveledge" of being connected to "Freenode" you have to accept a bunch of spam and corny behavior from lilo.

Screw that.

Sorry but Professional IRC-d00d is not a real job.

You're a moron if you think it should be.

Re:reason for donations (1)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090833)

What IRC network doens't imagine themselves becoming the central hub of all other IRC networks?

This sounds like wishful thinking. It sounds like lilo would love to make this his full time job and is pissed he might have to actually go do real work.

What about banners? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#4090545)

Should Debian users avoid visiting sites that use banners just because it's not free? ( Free, as in woohoo, I'm as cheap as it gets ).
Come on. There's nothing wrong about donations. It's just another way YOU could help software and services get BETTER. You don't have to, but it would be nice if you did.
Said that, I don't see any reason to donate to OPN.

Re:What about banners? (3, Insightful)

audiophilia (516688) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090564)

There's nothing wrong about donations. It's just another way YOU could help software and services get BETTER. You don't have to, but it would be nice if you did. Said that, I don't see any reason to donate to OPN.

The reason to not donate to OPN is that your donation doesn't go towards running the network. Your donation goes into the pockets of the admins. I think it's a widespread misconception that these donations are going towards bandwidth and hardware. They're not. The bandwidth and hardware are still donated. Your donation pays for Lilo's rent.

Re:What about banners? (2, Interesting)

ChrisJones (23624) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090572)

Let's remember here that irc.debian.org points to OPN, or freenode, or freeload, or whatever it's called today, so newbie debian users are getting spammed asking for money to support a service that is widely available elsewhere - most IRC networks run just fine and have run just fine without solicited financial donations for years.
Running an IRC network isn't *that* hard, it's definitely not a fulltime job, so just what is the thousands of dollars (assuming people donate that much) going to buy?
It wouldn't be so bad if the money was going to be shared out between the people providing servers to offset their costs, but instead it's going to be supporting lilo so he doesn't have to get a job like all the other people who run IRC networks. I really don't understand it.

Re:What about banners? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090644)

Nice try lilo, go troll somewhere else.

Have those weenies every priced a colo? (2, Insightful)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090557)

I got a very good deal that I negotiated as something extra special and I get 320Gbit of transfer for USD$200/mo. The reason I went to a colo was that putting up a box at work did not seem ethical or practical (what if I get fired, quit, move, etc).

Someone has to pay for OPN's bandwidth, machines, whatever. I'm sorry, but the internet isn't free like some people assume it is, even your ISP has to pay for the bits when going to backbones. (It might not be per-bit it might be an uncapped monthly rate, but if you divide out how much you xfer in a month typically and what you're paying you'd find that bits are not cheap).

People should quit thier crying because everything isn't free like beer.

Re:Have those weenies every priced a colo? (1)

audiophilia (516688) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090576)

Someone has to pay for OPN's bandwidth, machines, whatever. I'm sorry, but the internet isn't free like some people assume it is, even your ISP has to pay for the bits when going to backbones.

I absolutely agree. It's unfortunate that the donations to OPN don't go towards bandwidth, machines, whatever. They're the source of the admins' paychecks.

Re:Have those weenies every priced a colo? (3, Interesting)

dzym (544085) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090654)

Bandwidth and hardware are paid for by thoughtful benefactors who have donated their resources to OPN generally without any recompense. No server sponsors are automatically given an O: line on OPN/freenode.

This money would be going to lilo's personal business-class DSL line with RDNS capability.

To wit, somegeek.org [samspade.org] has ip 66.140.25.154 [samspade.org] which is owned by Robert Levin (lilo) from Southwestern Bell Internet Services [samspade.org].

Re:Have those weenies every priced a colo? (2)

eyez (119632) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090663)

That ONE $200/mo server would most likely cover most of OPN's users. IRC is VERY low-traffic, and OPN only carries about 7000 users.

That, to me, adds up to $2400 over a 1-year period. Double that, you'll for sure cover all bandwidth costs for OPN by far, and you're still under $5k. And you'll have plenty of spare bandwidth to put your own stuff up.

So, there's still about $20k to be accounted for.

Lilo needs (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090560)

...to get a job.

Now.

He's been pulling this kind of crap repeatedly on OPN, and despite massive backlash in the face of his blatant give-me-money spam, he shows no signs of letting up any time soon.

I corresponded via dcc chat with him myself, (I am a former disgruntled IRCop from way back on that network) and he has personally told me 90% of the money donated goes toward his mortgage and food purchases. He seems to think of this as a way to support himself without having to resort to a real job but still maintaining the "free" and "open" implication of his irc network.

#slashdot has moved (2)

banuaba (308937) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090563)

The #slashdot channel (not the official channel, the fun one) has moved to irc.oublinet.net.

Come on over for some fun.

Bad link? Article down? (1)

nstrom (152310) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090565)

I get "The node you are looking for does no longer exist or is not accessible without the proper access rights." when trying to access http://debianplanet.org/node.php?id=774 [debianplanet.org].

Re:Bad link? Article down? (1)

hereward_Cooper (520836) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090618)

DP took it down because they want to stay out of the politics. The article was only posted becuase the admin who did so bypassed the voting system for articles in order to publisize his political stance. Or so I've been told.

-- Coops

Hmmm WOW (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090566)

This is earth shattering news!

last post from this nick (4, Insightful)

trelaneopn (563678) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090567)

About 2 months ago I was on OPN staff, about two months ago, I cared. I started WOPN, and frankly without me, OPN (or free whatever it is) would still be just an irc network without me. It is my impression you'll shortly see advertisements (or at least friendly plugs (which I have seen other dj's do)). I quit both the semi-official staff position I had (of course lilo gives noone real power) and left the radio station. After an argument with one of the more dense opers on the network, I created my own server and the xiph foundation and I moved to another network. The opn at the end of this name is a relic and this name will NEVER be used again to post.

At the risk of being accused of having an "anger management issue" or being a "Troll" I say this. Anyone who stays on opn needs to conduct a serious reality check. THIS IS NOT FREEDOM ANYMORE. THIS IS A FORCED OPPRESSION. MOVE!

Andrew D Kirch
Trelane (all references on the advogato link below will be shortly stripped of any reference to any work done on opn, but will be kept as a historic reference to prove the above claims.)

Re:last post from this nick (1)

ThatComputerGuy (123712) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090678)

I'd have to say that trelane is greatly exaggerating (or hasn't been on OPN lately). He moved to OFTC during the height of lilo's Global Notices, and afaik has only visited OPN occasionally since then.

At that time, lilo was sending quite a few Global Notices everyday, which stated the current state of funds, advertised his page [somegeek.org] with information about his job situation, and other stuff. Many people were understandably very annoyed at these messages, while others saw it as something that had to be done. Of course, people could always "/ignore global noti" to ignore these messages, but Global Notices tend to be something important, and so people were unwilling to block every message to avoid the funding notices.

A while after that, the amount of fundraising messages dropped significantly, but many people still held a grudge against lilo's actions during the days mentioned above.

Now, recently this has changed altogether: A target amount has been set for the fundraising, and 2 semi-global notices are sent out everyday via the nick "fundraising" and detail the amount of money raised and the remaining amount. Don't want to see the messages ever again? Then do what the same message tells you to do, and set an ignore via "/ignore fundraising noti". Voila, no more fundraising notices. Ever.

Of course, people still hold their grudges against lilo's past (brief) actions and his desire to stay head of OPN/PDPC/Freenode at least during the shift in goals. They're now on OFTC or some other network, so hey, whatever makes them happy.

Oh, and trelane, yes I know you, I'm amrit on OPN. "Forced oppression" my ass.

Re:last post from this nick (4, Informative)

dzym (544085) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090725)

let's see here

/ignore lilo!*@* NOTICES
a few weeks later
/ignore lilo^!*@* NOTICES
a few weeks later
/ignore dilbert!*@* NOTICES
a few weeks later
/ignore *!*@*staff.opn NOTICES
a few weeks later
/ignore FUNDRAISING!*@* NOTICES
a few weeks later
/ignore *!*@*.freenode NOTICES
Am I the only one who sees a pattern emerging here?

Re:last post from this nick (1)

ThatComputerGuy (123712) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090759)

Let's see.. he "spammed" Global Notices. When it got to be too much, he (eventually) toned it down and after that started using Fundraising Notices. So, I'll give you the first one, and the fifth one. Global Notices via lilo, and then those via fundraising. Funny, seems to me that the fundraising nick is a solution to everyone bitching about the previous notices.

Yet the bitching and exaggeration continue...

Definitely Annoying (0)

elixx (242653) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090578)

Two channels which I occupy on the openprojects network, #maryland and #md2600 both have complained much since lilo started the beggar act... so far we have endured, but who knows how long mortal will can sustain against the evil SPAM.

Not the only channel... (1)

Resident Geek (16074) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090589)

They're actually kind of late in doing so. Rob Levin's panhandling has already caused at least a few channels to move to OFTC [oftc.net].

OSDN Channels Have Moved (3, Informative)

saveth (416302) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090596)

The majority of the OSDN channels that were on OPN (#sourceforge, etc.) have already moved to SlashNET [slashnet.org] for IRC.

OPN is in a sad state, currently, with lilo constantly soliciting money and/or services from the IRCers. It just all seems rather childish to me.

Re:OSDN Channels Have Moved (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090659)

must be from all the expense of supporting that crack habit he got himself in to...

Re:OSDN Channels Have Moved (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090667)

i thought it was scientology?

Re:OSDN Channels Have Moved (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090711)

Same effect, you produce fucking homocidal nuts with stupid, terrorist-like beliefs.

Oh, great, this again. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090598)

The last time that this subject came up on slashdot, a massive, completely incomprehensable flameware ensued in which whoever that guy who runs openprojects posted a whole bunch of posts saying how there was this massive troll conspiracy to discredit him, and like a hundred people (interestingly, mostly AC) posting stuff alleging him of everything from putting spam in the WALLOPs to g-lining the baby Jesus. Both sides posted a bunch of confusing and self-contradictory "facts", but didn't really cite anything from an objective source to back it up.

It's hopeless. It's like trying to read a discussion about Israel on kuro5hin, or anything at all relating to Seth Finkelstein.

I'm going to just stay away, assume someone, somewhere has been horribly wronged but there's nothing i can do about it, follow #debian whereever it goes, and continue to use openprojects for its excellent C, perl, and java channels.

P.S.: Quick question, i may be setting up Gentoo soon, can anyone recommend any helpful Gentoo-related IRC channels on any irc network? I mean, the kind of channel where if you ask for help and their response is "read the documentation", they're willing to actually tell you sometimes where the documentation in question is :)

-- super ugly ultraman

Re:Oh, great, this again. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090634)

Well, there's a pretty active #gentoo channel on OPN...

Re:Oh, great, this again. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090637)

can anyone recommend any helpful Gentoo-related IRC channels on any irc network? I mean, the kind of channel where if you ask for help and their response is "read the documentation", they're willing to actually tell you sometimes where the documentation in question is :)

In true /. tradition, I will give you exactly what you didn't ask for. Go to forums.gentoo.org [gentoo.org] and ask them. Most helpful group of s.o.bs I've ever come across. I know you're looking for an IRC channel, but that forum is almost like IRC... you get answered just as quick sometimes. Besides, they could probably point you to a good channel (I think they mostly hang around in whatever general channel is listed on the gentoo front page).

debianplanet article taken down (1)

hereward_Cooper (520836) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090599)

DP took down the article a couple of hours ago because the poster bypassed the voting system for articles in order to publisize his own political stance. Or so I've been told.

-- Coops

The mysteries behind OPN/freenode donations (5, Insightful)

eyez (119632) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090609)

What really bothers me is WHY they're taking donations for this, and for this much ($25k in 6 months!)... To explain, here's a breakdown of the major costs of IRC networks:

1) Colocation and bandwidth

.. Well, that's it really. So how does this affect OPN (I don't think 'freenode' is a fitting name for an irc network that solicits donations)? It doesn't. OPN's servers are donated. When you sponsor a server for OPN, you let them run the ircd on your server and use the bandwidth required. You do NOT get an O:line with that. (For those that don't know, the O:line is Oper privileges; it's how you administer an irc server. OPN is the only network I've ever heard of that doesn't let you have an O: on your own machine.)

OPN is a relatively small network, with only 7000 or so clients connected at once. The Major IRC networks, such as quakenet, ircnet, undernet, efnet, etc, do NOT solicit or accept donations, and they have 80,000-100,000+ clients at once.

IRC is also a very low-traffic service. A two-server network on t1+ lines could EASILY handle the entire load of opn users.

So, why does OPN/freenet need the donations? I don't know. The numbers just don't add up to me. The servers are all donated, so they pay no network/bandwidth costs. And 7000 users isn't that much to admin over. (Talking to a quakenet admin earlier today, he mentioned somewhere around 90k users on in over 9000 channels), And it's certainly not something that should warrant full-time effort.

There are plenty of alternatives to OPN out there; there's the new oftc, and there's quite a few smaller ones, like irc.gimp.org, etc. Almost all IRC networks offer free nick/channel registration (certainly all that I can think of), so there's not really that much that OPN does that other networks can't do for your opensource project.

And I can't think of a SINGLE irc network out there that solicits or accepts donations, besides the one with 'free' in it's new name. Most IRC networks are adminned by volunteers who keep the servers up because they like IRC and are dedicated to helping the network.

You could argue that having a lot of projects having channels on the same network is helpful, but that seems really moot to me. I can't think of a single modern irc client that doesn't offer multi-server support, and for most clients it's well-documented and trivial to set up.

I don't like to pass judgement, but It really seems to me like all the flames about lilo only doing this to get out of having to have a real job at least have some SOME truth to them. I just can't think of any other explanation as to why they'd need that much money.

Re:The mysteries behind OPN/freenode donations (2, Informative)

Tyler Eaves (344284) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090665)

Well, just for the sake of argument,

2 x T1s = ~$3000 - $4000 a month
That's 18000 - 24000 for 6 months.

Re:The mysteries behind OPN/freenode donations (1)

N1KO (13435) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090703)

That would make sense if the servers weren't "sponsored".

Re:The mysteries behind OPN/freenode donations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090822)

But since the bandwidth and servers are donated that's 18,000 - 24,000 bucks in lilos pocket for being a medoicre IRCop and big time spammer.

Re:The mysteries behind OPN/freenode donations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090676)

Time is money.

Re:The mysteries behind OPN/freenode donations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090687)

Nice try lilo, get a real fucking job you loser.

Could you dorks get any more pathetic? (0, Troll)

glrotate (300695) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090716)

Crying about someone asking for donations on your l33t IRC channel.

You people would be much better off ebaying your computer and getting a hooker.

Feenode (2, Flamebait)

Rik van Riel (4968) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090769)

(I don't think 'freenode' is a fitting name for an irc network that solicits donations)
Personally, I prefer the name feenode ;)

Boy that's startling... (2)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090613)

... a drama on IRC that gets people so upset they move on. Heh.

I have a serious question: How come IRC can bring the worst out in people? Is it because of the equality of the internet? I haven't gone to a single IRC channel or forum without having a bad experience of some sort. I've seen people (including myself) get far more infuriated over IRC stuff than real life stuff. It's really hard to imagine blobs of text can do that to anybody, but it does.

I realize I'm drifting off topic a bit, but it seems like 'moving to a new channel' is going to end that type of thing. It might be more worthwhile to figure out how to get these situations defused. I think one major contributor of this type of stuff is that comments made in text are stripped of tone of voice or body langauge. I could say 'YOU SUCK!!' and some people would read that as sarcastic, some would read it as an indication that I'm 12 years old. It is devoid of any of the typical context you get with 1:1 communication in person. That's the nice thing about having a mediator around. That person isn't emotionally involved and can tell somebody if their tone needs adjustment.

Re:Boy that's startling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090653)

Well, to the first point, i think the internet is the ultimate communist/capitalist implementation. everyone is equal, hell we're all just fake names, so it doesn't matter who's saying what.

but as everyone being equal, people can really make a capitalistic difference, in the sense that the 'market force' of everyone being fed up with opn or whatever, you can easily (relatively) find an alternative, promote it, and force the offender to fix his ways.

and such, since we're all just fake names, it doesn't seem like we're really yelling at people so much as the computer (thats what i think, and i bet everyone else has a different view so i'll leave that alone).

Re:Boy that's startling... (2)

garcia (6573) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090660)

you're right, people do take IRC too seriously. Whether it be drama about online relationships (friendship or sexual) or channel happenings, there is always some sort of fighting going on.

But this brings a whole new development that I have never seen before. The actual person running it has created a LARGE IRC soap-opera for little or no reason.

If you don't have the time to do something there are two choices. a) give it up, apologize, and make the people move. b) give it up, apologize, delegate the responsibilities to someone who CAN afford to take the time.

From what I have read about this invdividual, he feels that he is NECESSARY to run this particular IRC server. Thus he is God. He will not delegate any part of the running of the network to anyone else (taht includes giving operator status to those who host the ircd on THEIR machines on THEIR bandwith).

Drama on the Internet. Nothing like it.

Re:Boy that's startling... (1)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090675)

IRC provides a near-instantaneous means of making an ass of yourself. Most of us are hardcore computer users, and therefore lack those mental output filters civilized people employ in their day-to-day lives, so it is probably fortunate that the rooms on IRC are virtual. Then you've got the power trip the chanops are on because they've got the control over the comings and goings of tens of others, reinforced by half of that crowd constantly sucking up to them. Nobody can tell when anyone is joking because it's all text, so you've got plenty of opportunity for misinterpretation.

Personally, I can't stand IRC. I've been trying to wade back into it slowly after giving up on it for six or seven years, but the general attitude in some of the linux channels in particular (EFnet...) is as offensive to me now that I'm giving Linux advice as it was when I was asking for it.

Panhandling? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090625)

Sure, many of us are feeling the pinch these days vs. the glory of a few years ago. OPN has been a great resource, ala PBS in the US. Some pay, or provide a portion of their own resources gratis. But the point is not seeking the network with the least amount of whine. They all whine or have some perhaps annoying facet. The real point is what is the best resource. I think a certain amount of centralization is beneficial to the community and as a magnet for support for those looking to join the community. Yes, this is stream of conciousness and perhaps disconnected. Keep in mind, if someone had done a better job than lilo, then we would already have 'A' clear alternative.

I want to "do" Debby in the mouth (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090630)

Hey, Ian, if you're listening ...

I want to "do" Debby in her sweet sweet mouth. You know that she must
drink cum like a big tounged dog lapping up water on a hot August day.

-- Opie and Anthony

The whole lilo story goes a lot farther back... (4, Informative)

Primer (25308) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090642)

Read all about it here:

http://www.lilofree.net [lilofree.net]

The OPN exodus started well before this fundraising initiative. It's all documented in the above URL.

Rob Levin's Statement (1)

joepa (199570) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090692)

From Rob Levin's Website [somegeek.org]:
Hi all, just a bit of status. Since I last made an entry here, you've helped us pay two months rent, catch up on our car loan and insurance and the phone bills, pay grocery bills and gasoline and so on. Really appreciated. The money has pretty much run out at this point, but I have an $8.50/hour job doing linux support at an inexpensive colo here in Houston, and at least we can now pay the rent, which includes the utilities, and a bit more. We're hoping to hear back from the student loan consolidation people. I'm not sure how long we'll stay connected to the Internet
Two questions:
/whois we
and
/whois us
?

Re:Rob Levin's Statement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090734)

please give me money so i can sit on my fat ass and irc more at your expence

Lilo is single-handedly destroying that network (2, Informative)

cyberconte (156446) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090702)

People are leaving in droves...why? Not because of DOS attacks, or poor service...

Its because of Lilo.

And he refuses to comprehend this. His spamming is nothing new - hes done it since the network was created and i was a member of several channels. People have been telling him to stop for as long as i can remember, and now, finally, its driving people over the edge and making them leave. And he *still* insists on continuing, since "its his network and he'll do what he wants with it".

I mean, really. You'd think hed get a hint when an entire network [lilofree.org] is created just to get away from him.

I hope the network rots away in front of him so he can truly understand the bullheadedness of his actions. OFTC is just as good without the wallops.

As for #debian... move to OFTC!^_^

Trolling for Dollars - Bully (4, Informative)

jbridges (70118) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090707)

From June 13th:
Trolling for Dollars [kainx.org]

From July 8th:
The Big Bully [lilofree.net]

[2221 lilo`(lilo@lilo.staff.opn)] you're saying that my asking for voluntary assistance based on my work on the network is abusive?

[2222 msg(lilo`)] I'm saying that your using the network to ask for personal donations which will benefit no one but yourself is an abuse of power. It's also arguable that such use of the network is now illegal given the NPO you formed to oversee the network.

Asking for Donations fine, Spamming not (2)

dh003i (203189) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090735)

Asking for donations -- even explicitly -- is fine.

Spamming is not.

By spamming, they are forcibly transferring the cost of them asking for donations from them to us.

This is wrong.

But, at least their messages are text-based, and not huge graphics eating up your bandwidth.

I understand that these people need money to run their service. However, that doesn't justify their tactics.

Similarly, I understand that the people who run charities to help the poor need money to do that...that doesn't justify them phoning me with a taped recording.

#vorbis (2, Informative)

sheol (153979) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090737)

the ogg/vorbis irc channel has moved away from OPN/freenode to their own private server as well. irc.xiph.org/irc.vorbis.com #vorbis

ya (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090738)

openprojects or now "freenode" (oh please, trendy lame name) is getting hella corny.

These guys think running an irc network should be a full time 50 grand a year job. Sorry but huge networks like efnet, dalnet and undernet don't need to grovel for donations becuase they arent trying to make a living running an irc server.

They could run "freenode" at virtually no cost, but they want to use it as a full time job instead.

Sorry but running an irc network isnt a full time job. If you think i'm going to donate money so you can pay your cell phone bill or make a car payment (hello those have nothing to dow with IRC) you can forget it. Ever since i saw the opn founder blew like 200$ in donations on his cell phone bill i knew this place was just a scam. All the other networks find ways to manage without begging.

Personally i think debian should get the hell out of there.

Beyond the begging stuff, opn has all these wacky little ircd mods that are supposed to be clever but are just annoying and pointless, and everyone has to be a "mr. nice guy" unless of course you are friends with the opn staff then you can dis newbies and attack people with different opinions, but everyone else gets a big scolding for "not playing nice". They want irc to become a super friendly mr. rogers neighborhood, well that ain't gonna happen, get real you panzies. It makes me want to barf.

The other lame think about opn is the whining when they get hit with a dos. Like no one ever got dosed before. Ya dos is fucking lame, but guess what, it happens, especially on and around irc, so deal with and go on with your life, sheesh.

Anyway, opn is really getting cheesy so i'd love to see debian pack up its bags and head for less annoying pastures.

Got Such A Message Myself (1)

limekiller4 (451497) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090741)

This isn't a terribly insightful comment, just wanted to add my voice to the fray, but I got one of these messages the other day while on IRC (though it was irc.linux.org, so I'm guessing that they're all connected) and I even considered donating. But after reading the reply, I have to say this is a bad direction for debian to be headed in and I agree that the practice should stop.

OFTC.net (1)

thefatz (97467) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090743)

irc.oftc.net

The network run by post OPN people. Really good guys there. No "lilo needs new shoes crap".

Fatz

How is this different from the Perl Foundation? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090751)

The Perl Foundation does about the exact same thing and no one really bitches are around here. I remember Slashdot article not too long ago about how that fund is running low on money. People were whining here about helping to keep that fund going.

Blender is somewhat similar. I imagine this 100,000 Euros that is needed is going to the pockets of the old board of directors of NaN.
Would it be any better if Rob Levin asked for $100,000 American and said he wanted no more?

Slashdot went the same way a few months ago and people bitched. But they soon stopped caring because they wanted Slashdot more than carying on some stupid crusade about how Slashdot should remain free. I imagine this stupid Debian people that are threatening to leave read Slashdot. Do I donate money to Debian? Nope. I won't donate money to them EVER. They should be perfectly content with this too.

Re:How is this different from the Perl Foundation? (1)

ChrisJones (23624) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090823)

Perl and Blender are unique resources that are (at least in the case of Perl), pretty important.
OPN is just an IRC network. It's nothing special. If people are going to donate money to Open Source/Free Software, it would be good to see the money actually go to support that, not pay lilo's gas bills.
BTW, Debian are completely content with not having your money, they're doing a pretty good job without it in fact ;)

give it a rest (0, Troll)

boola-boola (586978) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090758)

C'mon, what's the big deal? Everybody's gotta make money somehow, there's nothing wrong with *asking* for money. Besides, you can turn off the 2x a day messages. I personally think people are being picky. It's a "free" network, you don't _have_ to use it, you don't even _have_ to use IRC...

IMHO, I just think people are asking for too much.

eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090763)

I know (or care) very little about this IRC situation. But from the comments it seems somebody is running an IRC server and wants some money. He's asking by spamming people twice a day, but gives instructions how to ignore it.

And people are criticizing this?? Why? I see comments telling him to "get a job".. isn't doing something and getting paid for it a "job"? Who cares what he does with the money??

What's the angle here I'm missing..

My local public jazz radio station asks for web site donations continuously throughout the year and they also have yearly annoying telephone fundraising, how is that different??

Oh well, better let the kids play.

Re:eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4090811)

It's becuase all the hardware and bandwith is donated. He could easily give volunteers powers to admin the network for free. It could be done for free, but he'd rather try and make a living off being an IRCop. That's just ridiculous. Maybe you don't understand how easily an IRC network can be run for free. There is no reason whatsoever it would have to be a full time job. Hence the reason there are so many fine spam free networks that people have moved to. Hey he can spam and beg for cash to pay his cell phone bill and go to resturaunts he's free to do it, and all the users are free to set up their own network and get the hell away from "Freenode".

money money money! (0)

lethalwp (583503) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090804)


Another link talking of lilo:
http://liloaid.ecce.co.uk/

It's too bad he's ripping that network appart begging for money. Maybe he should sell his body to internet, like experiencing cyber-sex-irc-with-webcam for money?

pr0n is probably the number1 commerce of the internet ;)

Anyway, i don't know him, but i see a lot of ppl talking about him. So he's a famous guy... with no money ;)

But our community doesn't live through begging, it lives on sharing knowledge freely
He didn't understand that, he's not deserving running an 'openprojects' server.

But should we care that much?

"Get A Life!"

Anybody who uses OPN... (4, Informative)

drdink (77) | more than 11 years ago | (#4090817)

might want to be aware of this little feature [ic.ac.uk] at their disposal. Here on SlashNET [slashnet.org], we frown at such things. I, as the ircd maintainer, refuse to include such things in our ircd and have refused patches such as this in the past. Evil stuff.
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