Public vs. Private Sector? 353
yusing asks: "Public sector or private sector? Which would you rather work in? What are Slashdot reader experiences like? What are the differences in work environments? What are the frustrations of each? This person chose private sector after working in public. This article argues that the public sector should be expanded. There are definitely political considerations in this choice (bigger/smaller government for example) but I'd like help deciding which would be more appropriate for me. Where can I find quality reading to help me decide?"
Job security (Score:3, Informative)
And then once you're in and want to switch jobs governmental agencies will give you preference over someone who's not working in the public sector. This is why a friend of mine is looking to land an airport screener job. He doesn't really want to do that for the rest of his life. He just wants to get in and later on move to some computer position elsewhere.
Public sector downsides... (Score:5, Insightful)
Added to which, to be frank, from my experience you will end up working with the most mediocore people the market can bear. Sorry, but many government offices are staffed by the otherwise unemployable. Do you really want to work with these people??
Re:Public sector downsides... (Score:2, Interesting)
That said, though it still surprises me to say it, of all my work experience, the US Army was the least screwed up of any organization I've worked for, public and private. When I was in, I always thought "man things are so screwed up here, I bet things run much more efficiently in the private sector."
Was I ever wrong.
Re:Public sector downsides... (Score:3, Informative)
Man, it's nice to hear someone say that. I spent 10 years in the Marine Corps, and while I experienced my share of bafoonery, all in all I'd say things ran pretty friggin well...most people worked hard and most bosses took care of their people.
I'm self employed now, but my wife works for the federal government. She's been enduring some really stupid stuff lately, and has talked about leaving for a private sector job. I said fine, if you want to leave then leave, but regardless of where you work, your boss will always be a knucklehead and your co-workers will always play politics (not that I'm so negative, but those are the complaints that bubble to the surface over time, and can start to outweigh the good.)
Re:Public sector downsides... (Score:3, Interesting)
Public:
-Better job security, but not that great.
-Medical benefits are just as good as privae.
-Salary may not be great, but they'll find other ways to pay you-- conferences often take place in places like Hawaii, and they'll usually pay for spouses and children for more days than just the conference. Tax breaks too.
-Getting funding for a project is about as easy and painless as a home root canal kit.
-Bureaucracy, bureaucracy, bureaucracy!!! Mulitple layers of multiple bosses... All who can't help you, but they can tell you who can.
Umm.. Govt. occasionaly likes laying people off (Score:2)
While unlimited job security in government may have been a thing of the past, it is not anymore. Recently, my ex-government employer decided to outsource almost *everyone* that was not an engineer. And by everyone, I mean *everyone*; security, maintaince, computer support, librarians, etc.; only a few VIPs would remain to supervise the winning contractor(s).
Low and behold, there actually are companies that specialize in taking over a variety of tasks in this sort of manner. A single firm bid to do all of the things I listed above, and then some. The winning bidder (Johnson Controls World Services, Inc.) tentatively has a $60 Million, 5-year contract. Approximately 250 jobs will be downsized and/or replaced at this single, government location.
Mind you, the facility I worked at already had outsourced HVAC, groundskeeping, and several other tasks, so the lost of jobs is somewhat minimal. But if 1,000 government facilities all decided to do what mine did, the lost of jobs and/or salaries could skyrocket.
Please pardon my skeptism with outsourcing; the two other cases I've seen of outsourcing have involved people fired from $30K salaries to be replaced with minimum-wage workers. Somehow, the prices still manage to go up, and quality goes down. In one case (a school cafeteria), prices more than doubled. So either the school was selling things too cheaply, or the contractor has seriously marked things up.
Stability (Score:4, Interesting)
Besides, my health has already went all the way down hill after pulling the countless overtime in the private sector. I need to take time and recover quiet a bit, and the resonable working hour is just great for that.
Thanks but no thanks (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Thanks but no thanks (Score:2)
better benefits and security in civil service (Score:2)
Academia (Score:3, Interesting)
Just my
Jedimom.com [jedimom.com], ph balanced, for women.
Re:Academia (Score:2, Insightful)
In addition, they've been fairly generous with training, equipment, hours, and pay.
The downside? For me, its been politics. Lots of people making noise, very few actually getting anything accomplished. I work for an auxiliary part of the college though, not for an actual school or research department, so I can't speak for those.
In addition, you don't have the opportunity to "make it big" like you do in the private sector (however small an opportunity that is). You're pretty much guaranteed a modest, but steady salary for as long as you work there.
Re:Academia (Score:2)
Yeah, they've been tightening budgets up, but they sure haven't been laying people of in droves.
Depends on where you are. I bailed from Virginia Tech when my 3-year contract got reduced to a 1-year on renewal. Being the newest non-tenure track person in the department I had a bad feeling about that. Talking to my old boss recently, he commented that I'd made the right call: Tech is $25M in the hole and is laying off people. [vt.edu]. He's already attritted 3 positions (including my old one) and will probably have to do more soon. Overall, the university is shedding about 300 people- not horrible in terms of percentages, but very rare in academia.
My current job at a small private school seems to be safe since they're doing everything possible to avoid layoffs, but we're losing people by attrition. My boss (head of IT) is moving on and they are replacing him with the assistant director, but not filling her space. Raises were close to nonexistant this year and my budget got cut by 5%- again, not much, but the days of getting everything we asked for are over.
Academia politics are worse than even govt jobs (Score:2)
Want back stabbing, gossip, alliances and enemies? Join the ranks of academia! If you are a prof you get amaazing leeway to abuse your grad students and use them for free labor. Thats if you can survive the constant oversight of the head of the dept. If you are a grad student, bend over and lube up. You are free labor and you have no rights as a worker. After a while you will notice that it is no coincidence that your advisor won't let you leave. Why would they? You are a well conditioned mule. Letting you graduate would mean your advisor would have to break in another.
Re:Academia (Score:2)
Acedemia is great. You tend not to have that "Corperate Bottom Line" mentality, and things are just... nicer.
Great benefits like being able to take classes for free. What company is going ot pay for you to take classes that have nothing whatsoever to do with your job?... and 2 per semester at that! Day classes even!
I have a reasonable work schedual (~35/hr/week unless we are in a start of semester project crunch or the shit otherwise hits the fan), a reasonable amount of vacation (everyone should get 4 weeks vacation damnit), and cool people.
Frankly, I will be quite happy to never work for a for-profit again.
-Steve
From Ghostbusters: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:From Ghostbusters: (Score:2)
I work for a university. This isn't funny because it's an exaggeration... it's funny because it's true. So very true.
I'm not looking forward to my eventual move to the private sector - "What, you expect me to do work on all the weekdays? And start before lunch too? Tyrants!"
In this economy... (Score:2, Insightful)
Private Sector!!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Those who can't DO, TEACH.
Those who can't TEACH, MANAGE.
Those who can't MANAGE, GOVERN.
-Alanism-
Re:Private Sector!!!! (Score:2)
Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:5, Insightful)
You should work in at least one small, on the edge company for some period of time when you are young and can take more risks. These are the types of places you really learn and grow without having your fate defined by a strictly defined job definition.
This type of question is likely to be answered by all sorts of people crapping on the private sector because of the job situation out there. Come on folks, markets recover. Taking a risk on a smaller company when you have no dependents and no long term debt (like when you are first out of college) is a must.
Re:Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:2)
Hmph. Well, I guess those who have the sort of financial means necessary to graduate from college without a long-term debt would feel more comfortable taking risks...
Re:Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:2)
Having done that, I've made a near 6 figure income in doing that, and this year looks good for a 6+ figure year.
I think people tend to look at security as a "free" benefit, but in reality, it is a factor in negotiating salary just as much as is any other benefit. I've been able to make a lot of money without a degree in the field by assuming a lot of risky opportunities. The key is to stock the larder when the harvest comes in, keep your credit card debt low (because that can act as a buffer as well), and keep those skills sharp.
Having said all of this, I've just accepted a perm position with a 25% salary cut
Re:Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:5, Interesting)
I started my post-college career at a small private software firm as an admin/consultant. It was great for a while. I pissed off the CEO, though and got canned in '99 (the party line was for "insubordination"). The joys of being an "at will" employee.
I've been working for a state university ever since. Initially, the pay was worse (by $8k/yr), however, the benefits were so much better that it more than made up for it: $75/mo for family medical/dental vs around $300; 14% of my gross given (not matched) into a retirement fund vs the pitiful maxed-out 1% 401K matching. My pay has since surpassed that of my former employer.
My department (research computing) has weathered the recession well, whereas others on campus have lost their jobs or have been shuffled to other departments. We didn't get our annual cost-of-living raise this year, but I can't complain.
Though the pay is comfortable (still not great) and the work reasonably stimulating, I don't forsee myself here for very long. In spite of the fact that I could very likely become the cranky suspenders-wearing "unix guy" from the classic Dilbert strip, a secure and well-paid fixture on campus, I will likely move on in a few years. I like variety, and I suspect I'll hop to a small ISP or local business.
But the public sector has been good for me. There's no way I'd ever have admin'ed a 64-way Origin 2000 or other various other clusters or large servers at a mom-n-pop company. Big institutions allow one to get experience with big systems. I've found that experience with large systems scales down to small systems much easier than the opposite direction. So once I find another small company, I should have a lot of fun with it.
My family lives modestly, so my current income (about $52k/yr) is equally modest and I don't need to pursue a 6-digit salary. And I'm not short-changing my life, either. I've got 20 acres of retirement land and we put good money away for kids college and nest egg. You just gotta know how to wisely manage money.
Of course, other lifestyles will vary. :) That's just my (abridged) story. I'd really recommend that everyone try employment in each sector, just so you get a feel for both sides: the secure bloat of most government institutions or the dog-eat-dog world of private comapanies. Both are interesting in their own ways, and both have good and bad points.
Re:Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:2)
If you're in a climate that can handle it, and don't mind investing about 1k$ now for a pretty good return in 10-12 years, plant pine trees all over every free inch of land you have. They grow to maturity in approx 12-15 years, you sell them all to a logging company and you replant. It's pretty good money and it's not subject to the vagaries of the stock market. Lumber prices stay pretty constant.
Kintanon
Re:Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:2)
I stand by my statement: straight out of college is the best time to take risks.
Re:Do you want to rot securely or take a risk? (Score:2)
Kintanon
Personal Achievement (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Personal Achievement (Score:2)
>accomplishment from working in the public sector.
>However, here in Canada, government services are
>heavily unionized. I fear that most attempts at
>accomplishing anything could be burried under
>government and union red tape.
Oh yeah, there's no red tape in the private sector, right?
I worked for a Very Big Oil Company, and I've also had a couple of provincial government jobs.
Compared to Big Oil, my experience in government was the essence of thrift, accountability, planning, empowerment, and clueful use of technology.
Working for the government did indeed suck, they certainly did have a lot of problems in need of fixing, but that's not unique to
Re:Personal Achiement (Score:2)
Very true. While both have red tape, the corps are less likely to get bogged down in it. Corps are driven to make a profit and red tape costs money. Governments however do not consider the bottom line as much as they should. A nice happy medium between between the fanitic corps' persuit of profits and some governments total lack of business sense would be ideal.
Re:Personal Achiement (Score:2)
>to get bogged down in it.
No offence, but what's the biggest company you've ever worked for?
True story from my days at Very Big Oil Company: At my office, someone bent over to pick up a pen, and when they stood up, they bumped their head on a thermometer mounted on the wall. This was officially written up as a "safety incident", meetings were held, and the thermometer was remounted to a higher position on the wall.
Dilbert isn't a comedy, it's a documentary of the Fortune 500.
Re:Personal Achiement (Score:2)
The worker safety laws are badly abused by some. Documenting as much as possible can help prevent this kind of fraud.
Easy choice... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Easy choice... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Easy choice... (Score:2)
Wish your attitude was more common in the civil service.
I'm not saying all civil service employees are idiots but a far larger percentage of them are compared to the private sector. Since Government doesn't have to produce a profit or even stick to a budget, the incentive for managers to motivate employees to peak performance is next to nil.
Amtrak is a great example of a Government run business. Completely inefficient, full of fraud, nothing works and is bleeding money left and right.
Re:Easy choice... (Score:2)
I'm not sure why you would think this. I work at a federal facility that gets a yearly outlay from Congress, the same as any other government agency/facility. When the money is gone, we can't just go ask for more. In the past year we've had to cut training budgets and even lay some people off because of budget shortfalls.
Re:Easy choice... (Score:2)
Listening to my wife, there are JUST as many doofuses at Her office (coding) as there are at mine.
Whoever's hiring (Score:2, Interesting)
If you're the kind of person who really shines, who likes working hard and wants to impress your boss, stick with the private sector. If you just want to get by until you retire, and you'd rather do your more challenging work in your spare time, then work in the public sector.
What do you want to do? (Score:2, Interesting)
Where can I find quality reading to help me? (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Public sector vs. Private (Score:2, Funny)
Quite true. For example, if you're a relative of the CEO then you're bound to go far.
depends on your ambitions. (Score:2)
Public sector people may disagree, but I believe if you desire to work in a truly competitive market, where you earn yoru pay, and if you wish to work with the most motivated and motivating (good and bad) people you need to work in the private sector. However if your looking for security then the public sector is best. I have a friend who is a sys admin for a gov facility and his job is so easy, no stress, they are all unionized. And there is never ending breuracracy.
If you wish to make any sort of change it has to be approved by ten different commitiees. ten commitees who know nothing about the technology. Where in private sector is driven by demand and performance.
Re:depends on your ambitions. (Score:2)
What a silly stereotype! I've worked in both worlds and my experience was the opposite. I was a systems engineer for a Big Private Company and we were having "paradigm shifts" and Dilbert-esque reviews every day. I've also spent time working on a government-funded project where everyone involved was completely professional and we did quality work.
I know a lot of people in the private sector who do not "earn threi pay", but who just coast along the bureaucracy of a corporation.
Depends on what kind of person you are. (Score:2)
I work for the feds in a small regional office. However, I'm the kind of person who likes to have input on all the big IT decisions, so for me, this sucks!
All the decisions are made at a National level with very little chance for the regions to comment or even make suggestions. If your IT folk at the national level are not great, your job gets harder. We have a lot of inhouse developed solutions. However, they rarely work properly when a new version comes out, and there is very little documentation (read: none, except install instructions).
Also, a lot of the time the public sector doesn't have a lot of control over the products it uses. For example, we're preparing to rollout Windows 2000 for our server environment (with Exchange, MSSQL, etc.) without ever making a choice on looking at other OSs. Why? Because, they decided to contract the job out. So, basically lowest bid that meets the requirements wins. They don't bother to look at other options, like taking the money to pay the contractors and instead training up people to implement the solution.
Yes, I'm bitter, and slowly starting to find contract work to get myself out of this job. But what I have to say is still valid. If you like being in control, or at least working close with those who are, make sure you work in the top of the pryamid office. Of course this doesn't just apply to public offices, I'm sure large private sector corps aren't much different.
Re:Depends on what kind of person you are. (Score:2)
Politics vs Future? (Score:2)
Small private companies keeps you free of politics and its easier to be recognized, although, it is usually more difficult to move up the chain (promotions) when in a smaller company.
Personally, I enjoy the small companies, because I hate company politics. I do plan on changing in a few years (after my MBA and some project management experience) to get more responsibility and more cash.
best of both worlds: (Score:2)
One thing no one has taken into consideration... (Score:2)
GOV'T CONTRACTOR!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
THE BAD: Since all government contracts start as bids, your company will invariably underbid. That means a death march. Tight schedules, reduced resources. Some marches are more livable than others. However, becuase the SW development field is so young, I think you are going to find death marches everywhere.
Additionally, you are a servant to many masters. Those paying, those managing, and those who will eventually get your product. However I find politics to be quite fun, especially when you outperform (See above comment) and your adversaries "fall on their ass" (its an industry term...)
THE GOOD: Everything you heard about public sector jobs, but with better salary. Whoo hooo!
Re:GOV'T CONTRACTOR!!! (Score:2)
Depends very heavily on the contract you're on. In my first contract, I made less than the government employees who had more vacation, got to travel more, got payed better, and had less education and experience in the subject area.
Plus they had fun treating me like a secretary and asking me to do things that were clearly illegal or against contracting regulations.
Yaaaay, government contracting!
Re:GOV'T CONTRACTOR!!! (Score:2)
Don't worry about he schedule- overruns are okay!
The time card is fine... infact my wife's (a lawyer-to-be who just received an offer from her firm, Congrats to her! (and me)) experience at law firm time carding is FAR worse.
An example: we;re on the phone and she says "good lord! We've been talking for 9 minutes and 47 seconds! I gotta go!"
For obselete tech: for realtime human grade systems our tech is always far behind the curve.
THe one unfortunate reality you mentioned is that sometimes they run out of money and gotta wait until congress can give them more. And you get left holding the bag. They love the work you've done and they think you are doing a great job, but they have no money left in budget.
Self Respect (Score:2)
In my first job outside of school i was working for a consulting firm where we did a lot of work for the government (setting up networks, computer security, etc etc etc)
After that experience I would say that I will never EVER work for the government myself, nor will I ever have much respect for those that work in government.
Some reasons:
-well, it was the government. Slow moving people mired in burocracy.
-minimal accountability. The amount of $$$$ that was being spent on stupid stuff, plus the amount of $$$ being wasted by incompetance was just sickening.
-institutational paralysis. Try to get anybody to make a freaking decision? Forget it - we're gonna need three comittees and a dozen meetings to make the most trivial decision. I think this is part of the government mentality - it's part of the job security.
That being said, there are good people working in the government. But i'll never go anywhere near that sector again. My self respect couldn't take it.
Re:Self Respect (Score:2)
I tend to agree. I've never worked for the government, but I have worked for government contractors. In some cases, they're mirror images, only smaller.
Re:Self Respect (Score:2)
Depends which country! (Score:2)
I'd a lot depends on the general "public vs. private" sector arguements in the country you're in, and how politicians, decision makers and the public generally respect these sectors.Depends what you're trying to get out of it as well - security? money?
I'd make a guess you'd be better off working in the public sector in a northern European country (scandinavian social democracy model) and the private sector in the USA (laissez faire free market policies). I guess the surrounding working condition issues offered by those countries affect both private and public sector workers. Not sure what I'd choose in former soviet countries, probably working for the mafia... :-(
Completely different beasts (Score:5, Informative)
Public sector employees, though, often have fewer opportunities for advancement, no ability to get things like bonuses, and less flexibility in some of the "little things" you might encounter (like flex time , for instance). Also, if your boss is a moron in the private sector there's a chance they might get canned. If your incompetent boss is a civil servant, it's likelier that they'll stick around and make you miserable.
In the private sector, there's more opportunity for talented people to advance rapidly, more competitive and flexible pay scales, and in many cases, a workplace that's open to change.
But the downside is little to no job security, a less generous retirement plan (at most companies), and less time off.
So you need to decide what's more important to you. If you like stability, and/or aren't supremely confident in your abilities, then you can perhaps get on a career path with the feds and have a nice, solid, middle-class life. You'll probably get to keep working there through thick and thin so long as you're not a total screwup.
But if you think you really have the ability to go be a star, stick to the private sector. If you're really good, there's at least a chance of getting the appropriate reward. Just keep your resume up-to-date.
FORGET RESUMES! (Score:2)
IT resumes are worth more as shit squares than they are for distinguishing talented individuals. Buzzwords have rendered them absolutely useless, because anybody and everybody splatters everything inside the margins with them. An IT staffer might as well sort IT resumes by weight or coloration than by reading them. If you reduce yourself to your resume, you're one of hundreds if not thousands of applicants for most jobs. Disco will be wildly popular again before you get an interview. If you get an interview, pangea will occur again before you get a callback. If you get a callback, species will evolve before someone will make a serious offer to you.
Another decent alternative I've come across to resumes, are well-written letters to companies stating what you believe they can accomplish and how you can help them achieve to that end if they give you gainful employment. You show initiative and interest in the company all in one shot.
Government (Score:2)
Yes, I am going slowly insane.
The best jobs in the world, ESPECIALLY IT, is workign for the city. Nothing else comes close. Awesome benefits, wicked tax benefits, great pay, awesome equipment/technology(usually). If you can get one, get it. Kill if you have to, but get it.
Holidays..... (Score:2)
Doubtful that many private companies would offer such a great incentive after so few years.
If you want money, stay out of the public sector. (Score:2)
My pay is 25-35% lower than people with my same job in the private sector. And there really isn't any less stress at this job, unless you are a brain-dead slacker who could care less about enabling people to be productive. If you're interested in sitting on your ass all day and not helping people, and are reasonably sure your supervisor won't be willing to file the stress headache of termination papers for you, then the public sector is right for you.
Yes, public sector is stable. But the lack of money takes away from that. I can't afford a house, a new car, and I can barely keep up with my student loan payments. How stable is having to eat a dinner of rice and beans several times a week just to make payments on things you can't afford?
And public sector jobs depend heartily on funding from government. I've had plenty of experience lobbying the legislature of my state for funding for the past few years. If budgets need to be cut, the "bloated infrastructure" of a university looks is a mighty easy target for legislators.
Yes, it's a student's life and graduate school for me. Stick to the private sector if you can. Just don't get caught up in the lifestyle of extravagance, and you'll be fine.
You have a choice? Congratulations! (Score:3, Insightful)
A great band once said:
Yes there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on
Re:You have a choice? Congratulations! (Score:2)
I am still getting rejection notices from local and fed jobs I applied for *14 months* ago. (I later realized that I did my application "wrong" back then. There is a certain reviewer thinking pattern you have to cater your application to, and I am still learning the tricks.)
By the time a gov job pans out, the economy will probably be back on its heals (unless the 1930's are repeating).
I am not saying, "don't try", but never expect/plan-on "soon" from the gov.
some differences to consider (Score:2, Interesting)
The private sector is typically faster and more efficient than the public sector. Private companies need to be nimble in order to remain competitive in a changing marketplace, and of course they have to keep a close eye on the bottom line. Conversely, the public sector has a responsibility to make thoughtful, conscientious decisions through due process.
As for pay, "everybody knows" that salaries are better in the private sector, but the difference is smaller towards the bottom of the org chart. Laborers, techs, and line managers don't make that much less in the public sector than their corporate counterparts. There is a huge disparity in executive salaries. It is fairly common for people to gain initial experience as civil servants, then make the jump to private organizations for the better pay later on.
Some people simply feel better about working for a public organization. Many civil servants have a sense of duty to their community. This drive is probably responsible for the high rate of burnout among civil servants. The average turnover among public managers, for example, is 18 months.
I enjoy the stability and rewarding nature of my position in a municipal government, and I don't plan on going back to the private sector any time soon.
--
Your career is what you make of it, reguardless (Score:5, Informative)
While there are some backwards, misdirected, IT shops in the state, OURS isn't one of 'em. I'm proud of the work and accomplishments my fellow cow-orkers and I have pulled off on a small budget and not enough people.
I appreciate the stability, and the pay has actually jumped up to equal the lower pre-dotcom network admin salaries. I appreciate the 40 hour work weeks, and the flex-time/place work environment. But I also know that my position is a unique one and there are a WHOLE LOT of state jobs I wouldn't want to have.
Will I be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs this way? Nope. But I'll have plenty of time to watch my kids grow up and _assist_in_that_process_.
I've learned reciently that being rich ain't all that. I'm pretty happy with slightly more money than I need to live on comfortably.
Too much waste in public sector (Score:2)
Unfortuntately, we have a sizeable budget for hardware, software, and support contracts. What does that mean? The prevailing philosophy is to buy something off the shelf rather than developing it in house. Even for simple stuff like messaging systems, content management systems, etc. As a result, I have to look elsewhere during my spare time in order to learn new things (e.g. XML and Java to name a few). Like any other programmer, if I'm not learning new things, I'm not worth much.
This is great if your on the management side of the equation. CYA can't get any easier. Something doesn't work? Fall back on a fat support contract or buy software and hardware.
This sucks if you're a hack with a curious itch looking to take your game to the next level. Your proposals are going to be trumped by your department's need to "spend the budget or risk losing it come the fiscal new year."
My suggestion: If you're young and excited about learning new things and doing more with less, run don't walk from a gig with the government. If you've lost a step as a hack or are management material, get on board, ride it for twenty years, retire to Guadalajara, and sip tequila sunrises until your liver explodes.
I prefer private sector (Score:3, Informative)
The public sector is not as stable as one might think. New administrations tend to undo what previous ones did (even if they are the same party - the transition from Reagan to Bush caused a number of shakeups). RIFs and reassignments are dictated by the political climate and public opinion. And if the majority in Congress happens to be of a different party than the Prez, and Federal budget gets delayed, you don't get paid (and retroactive pay is not guaranteed).
Private sector is far more volatile, but the opportunities are also greater. I'll accept the higher-but-manageable risks of the private sector.
Govt work sucks.. (Score:2)
I spent 7 years in it... The supervisors are idiots, their managers are morons, and the people that run the city are scumbags. (city managers) Add to that the usual UNION workforce that is interested in making sure that you DO NOT make your job more efficient. I shaved 10 minutes off of a proceedure while increasing it's reliability.. the union filed a grievance against me for trying to change my job profile.
If you are innovative or highly skilled... you will hate public work.
Re:Govt work sucks.. (Score:2)
You will also be miserable in the private sector. We have ll the same problems.
My suggestion, start your own business.
Private all the way..... (Score:2, Interesting)
But, there's something else even more important that being what type of job you have. For a typical slashdotter, the most important thing is finding a job where Internet Access isn't monitored or restricted.
The other thing is, the only one truly looking after you is yourself. With that said, I've basically advanced my career/skills through my spare time on the job. Find a job with plenty of spare time and be sure to take advantage of it. I had a three month non-busy spell a few years ago and studied my ass off in Java, got certified, within one year, was making $25k more and still making it.
Govt. is under too much political scrutiny. Some locals find out we're paying public employees to browse the net, and it gets shut down for the workers. Shit man, browsing the Internet on the job should be a civil right!
Some of my friends in govt. actually have to walk to a different floor of the building to send an email to the outside world. I aint kidding, this is a fairly high up job.
Local munie? Well that's another one. I would never, never work for a local municipality. This is the absolute bottom of the food chain. I know this is an ugly steatement, but I've never seen a fatter bunch of duffers than when visiting my local county office to pay some tax, or fill out a form or whatnot. Not even the DMV is as bad.
Teaching? All the teachers I have adult converations with seem to have no sense of what the real world is all about. Part of them regresses back into childhood (or to whomever they teach their subjects to).
Private Sector is fractic by nature. It'll keep you from becoming obsolete. You may switch jobs, but you'll be a smarter/stronger/richer person of you can roll with punches.
Work Hard Play Hard
Public sector = GOOD (Score:4, Insightful)
However, the stereotype is that a job in the public sector is mundane.
After many years of working in the private sector, I am now working at Health Canada in the development of a public health surveillance system. I went in with apprehension because I had heard so many stories of public servants sitting around their desks doing nothing - not my cup of tea. However, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the group I'm in was very sharp and very professional. No two hour lunches and half hour coffee breaks here.
I started wondering why and began to realize the reason behind it all. Given that there have been many layoffs in the private sector, the public one has benefitted greatly from the pool of talent that has been made available. These people have brought with them skills and a level of professionalism that has changed many government departments for the better.
Note, however, that this hasn't applied to all departments. I guess I'm just one of the lucky ones.
Re:Public sector = GOOD (Score:2)
Question: what happened to the *former* people at those same positions?
Also, over time I bet they will be "ruined" just like the rest. Burocracies tend to reward a different kind of behavior than active businesses whose survivle depends on performance. Over time people's behavior will bend to fit what buroc's reward for, and productivity is rarely one of them.
(If gov agencies *really* want to get something done, they tend to hire private contractors for the job. Not that contractors are always competant, but they get more done than insiders.)
(I had a chance as an intern to be a perm civil servant "way back then", but was afraid of being "ruined". I wanted to see more of the real world before taking that risk. However, now it is harder to get back in the system because the unions rig the hiring process against experience because experience is seen as a threat to existing union members' careers. Thus, they favor interns and grads instead.)
Private, definitely (Score:4, Interesting)
I spent 10 years in the public sector doing municipal engineering, and 6 years in the private sector doing various IT work.
The public sector definitely has the appeal of stability, after all, the city/county/state/federal government isn't likely to pull up stakes and move to Mexico where the labor is cheaper, but with the stability comes stasis. There just isn't that much to be gained by taking risks in government.
The private sector has greater risks, but as every economist knows, with risk comes reward. Of the three companies that I've worked for in the past 6 years, one has been acquired by a European conglomerate occassioning a major cultural shift, and subsequent loss of morale in the general employee population, one just folded without warning (a month after I left, luckily enough) and my current employer has been slashing the head count steadily since 6 months after I started.
That has all been balanced by the fact that I've learned twice or three times as much in the past 6 years than I did in the previous 10. In addition, my first private employer picked up the tab for my Bachelor of Science, relieving me of the need to take out $15,000 in student loans, not to speak of the interest.
There is a place for public employment, my father spent his entire adult life working for Uncle Sam, first in the Air Force, then in the FAA, and then in Customs, and is sitting on a pretty nice retirement packageme. I'm not sure I could do that though. I haven't worked anywhere that I wasn't ready to leave within five years simply because there was nothing left there to maintain my interest.
it's whether you spend or make money (Score:2, Informative)
She likes private, because it's fast moving and you have to actually do stuff. I like public, because I have lots of money to spend on toyz, not many deadlines, and a lot of freedom.
She's paid 3x more than me though
Big government/small government (Score:5, Interesting)
What's called "private sector" is all too often government contractors. We, your government contractors, aren't bound by all the government's rules, restrictions, or protections. We can be laid off or fired relatively easily. We can use private databases to watch you. You can't see us, because we're private. But we can contribute to PACs, to keep the money flowing to political campaigns. We call it "access" and as a result your elected officials pay more attention to our lobbyists than they do to you.
As one of my previous bosses put it, "Our company has no problems that cannot be solved by more growth."
Frustration vs. Stress (Score:2)
I worked in a government position for two years, then switched to a private industry job. I can't recommend any books on the subject, but I can relate my experience.
Government Job: ProsEvery work environment will be different, so don't take these items as a hard and fast rule. I'm sure others in this thread will have widely different experiences from my own. Private companies that do work for the government (Raytheon, Boeing, Northrup) will act more like government jobs, and conversely, government labs (Sandia National Labs, MIT Lincoln Labs, John's Hopkins Physics Lab) will act more like private companies. Finding the right fit is a trial and error process that everyone must go through. I've found that I prefer to work for a small, private firm where I have more influence on my job, but at the same time take on quite a bit more stress and responsibility.
Whatever job you decide to take, a good idea is to first define what your goals are. Do you want a job that requires you to spend long hours, but rewards handsomely? Are you looking for a job where your tasks are well defined? What is your tolerance for stress? Do you prefer to work on a team, or alone? Do you want to perform research into new areas? Ask yourself these types of questions, and when you are sure of what you are looking for, ask your prospective employer about them. If you have a chance, ask the existing employees. Compare what the job has to offer against what you want from the job, and you will have a better chance of finding a position that is right for, regardless of whether it is public or private.
Re:Frustration vs. Stress (Score:2)
Private companies that do work for the government (Raytheon, Boeing, Northrup) will act more like government jobs, and conversely, government labs (Sandia National Labs, MIT Lincoln Labs, John's Hopkins Physics Lab) will act more like private companies.
This has been exactly my experience. I used to work at a large defense contractor where I came in late, took long lunches, and left early every day since there was nothing else to do. I was a just a body they could use to charge the government their ridiculous overhead rates. I was paid very well, but the price is severe brain atrophy.
I then took a job at a government lab. The work is interesting and challenging, the people I work with are motivated and take pride in their work, and the pay and benefits are pretty good too.
You can't paint jobs with a broad "public" or "private" brush.
Re:Frustration vs. Stress (Score:2)
This is an excellent point, and something to take note of when looking at any offers that you might receive. My first year working for a private company, I went from a steady 40 hours of well-paced work a week to 50 hours or more of feverish work per week. Make sure that you are getting the 20-30% increase in pay to go along with the 20-30% increase in work load if you look to take a job with a typical small, private firm.
My coworkers here are wonderful, pleasant people, and many of them are quite knowledgeable.If you are looking at taking a government job, check to see if they pay based on a grade-step schedule. If they do, ask for a copy of that schedule. Ask about grade and step elevations, and how often they take place. Don't be afraid to ask for a better grade or step, or even reclassification from scientific to engineering staff.
I should elaborate on my comment about unmotivated peers. In my government work, I found that most of the people that I worked with regularly were well educated, highly skilled, enjoyable people. I certainly do not want to paint a picture of all public employees being poor workers, as this is the farthest thing from the truth. However, government position do offer the opportunity for a person to do very little, and still get by. Unfortunately, some of the staff within my old organization had the goal of doing as little as possible. They were not interested in their job or their work. They did the bare minimum to get by. If you are in a position where you must depend upon a person like this, it can be extremely frustrating. The larger the organization, private or public, the more likely you are to run into this type of attitude.
Private anyday!!! (Score:2)
My experience (Score:2)
At my public sector (state) job, the head of IT was a typical PHB. He
Then I asked if I could speak to him one-on-one so he'd be less intimidated. Her answer: "No. You can schedule a meeting with him, but it will be cancelled."
Now, I was going through a difficult time (divorce) so I was looking for my job to have some meaning. It didn't. I was intent on using all those sick days they gave me (state jobs do have good benefits but it was actually a problem that I used the sick days) and my boss sits me down in her office and says: I know you have nothing to do (no active projects) and are struggling with having no purpose here, but it would be better for you to come in and sit at your desk playing SOLITAIRE ALL DAY than to take another sick day.
Basically, in my experience, in the public sector you are treated like furniture. They may not use you at all, and they want to shuffle you around (...constant reorganizations make you look busy, you know...), but by God you'd better be where they put you day in and day out 'cause when they're ready to sit on you, if you're not there they get pissed.
Working in the private sector, I've been laid off four times, three companies I worked for went out of business, and I've never been with any single company more than three years. AND I LOVE IT.
But sometimes, now that I'm older and have a family and kids and all, I think: Those sit on your ass all day, do nothing, government jobs would really help my blood pressure right about now.
YMMV.
Not as much difference as most people think (Score:2)
There is "big" government, where you work in a centralized bureaucracy, and "little" government, where you work in a tiny little outpost that nobody cares about. A large city might have some agencies that are "big", and the Feds have some agencies that are "small". Private industry has the same concept. For the IT worker, you want "big".
In most (but not all) cases, private industry salaries are better than government. This can be used advantageously by young people who want to build experience. For any given skill level, you can get a "better" job in government because the salary structure locks out most of the highly-skilled competitors. So you work in the public sector and establish yourself in a job you wouldn't have otherwise, then switch to private industry to make real money.
Government work can be enjoyable, but supervisory positions are to be avoided at all costs. It's hard to motivate anyone when you can't do anything good for the good people or do anything bad to the bad people. Since the good and bad get treated pretty much the same, mediocrity is par for the course.
All the other things (training, advancement, benefits, stability of employment, toys to play with), are really functions of big/little more than private/public.
Downsides of the public sector (Score:2, Insightful)
Here are the lousy parts of government:
1. If you are fairly bright and motivated, you will likely be working with a lot of folks who aren't.
2. Government is about accountability, not profitability. Things happen very slowly in government primarily because you have to document exactly how every penny is spent and why it is spent that way. Government will gladly spend thousands to select a product that costs $10 less than the competitor, just so any citizen or the press won't fry your ass if you made the wrong decision.
3. Remember your spending taxpayers money! Forget about bonuses, nice office furniture, big training budgets, or any other perk found in the private sector.
4. Because of 3 above, you will find that there is little reward for doing a job well. You'll likely get the same raise as the guy who hasn't put a line of code in production in years! Your average citizen would rather have you doing nothing than make more money than he does!
5. Forget about getting rid of poor performing employees. The documentation required isn't worth a managers time. Want to be guaranteed a job for life? Blow the whistle on anything you even think might have been done incorrectly and call the local newspaper!
6. Budgets are pretty much fixed yearly. If your priorities change during the year, you're screwed til next year. Just keep doing nothing.
I intended to jump back into the private sector last year, but the employment market sucks.
If you really don't want to work and don't mind hanging out in a drab government facility 8 hours a day, it may just be the right career move for you.
Union growth is in the public sector. (Score:2)
-russ
my experience there (Score:2)
Second, I couldn't just go and ask a specific expert a question. I had to go through the "chain of command" even for a one-time quick question. It is true that people there a long time build up buddy-buddy ties such that they go directly to each other. However, the rest have to go through the proper channels.
If you have to depend on other people to finish their part before you finish, then you might as well find another project to work on while you wait and wait and wait for the other party to deliver their part or approval. Everybody is highly protective of their "turf" and not making political waves is given a much higher priority over getting anything real done. If you are late to finish, the penalty is usually a minor chewing out (unless a critical system), but if you make your uppers look bad, watch out!
Before you start work with a gov entity, rip out the part of your brain that likes to see real progress on real projects, for you will never use it, or get into trouble when you do. You have to be happy to go with the flow and navigate the maze of politics and rot-heads it contains.
Perhaps they can't fire you for complaining about stupidity, but they can make your life miserable if you piss them off. Also, there were hints of people being framed so as to get rid of them. Thus, officially you cannot be fired for complaining about bad practices, but in practice you probably can if framed or they find some small infraction on your part that they can use against you (sexual joke, surfing slashdot, changing official desktop settings, etc.). Remember, they know how to "use" the system, and that includes aiming the system's barrel at you. If not canned, then at least moved to a closet or a Siberia-like working environment.
The stress is not relentless technical deadlines, but dealing with relentless politics and silly obstacles. Maybe other places are different, but from the grapevine it appears that my experience is not unique.
One other thing: it can be difficult to get hired on in the government. The hiring system favors interns and graduates because newbies are less of a career threat to union members. Thus, it is rigged against age and experience. I am surprised that there has not been huge lawsuits over this.
You have been warned. You may get a paycheck and benefits, but leave your soul at the door.
No Brainer (Score:2)
As for working conditions in government jobs: lower pay, lower morale, less flexibility and more paperwork and bureaucracy than typical equivalent private enterprise jobs. Then again, some big businesses are run as horribly as governments.
Re:No Brainer (Score:2)
Lunar landing.
Rural electrification.
Cure for polio.
Fighting back the Nazis.
The atom bomb.
It doesn't matter (Score:2)
Mu (Score:2)
Finally I realized memetic systems defining reinsurance networks in terms of kin-selection were the most natural way to make stable technological civilizations [clanarchy.com] because other memetic systems (those that deny the importance of kin-selection) merely evolve hypocrisy at an unconsciuos genetic level rendering rational thought, communication and action nonviable.
Private is better (Score:2)
2) Public sector jobs are subject to the whims of the voter. A few years back, EVERY California state employee got an across the board pay cut. (I think it was 10%).
3) There are little or no metrics to measure performance of public sector. Combined with employee unions, this means everybody gets the same raises, regardless of competence.
Bottom line: If you are competent, you'll do better in the private sector. If you are incompetent, you'll do better in the public sector.
A few years ago at a job fair, the recruiter for the state of Oregon came out of her booth and tried to drag me back to apply for a job. "Wouldn't you like to work for the state?" she asked. "I'd love to, but I'd have to take a 50% pay cut to do so!" I replied. This was literally true, since at the time I was making twice as much as a contractor as the state was willing to pay me.
You sound like a young person... (Score:2)
I could move on now (3 years total experience now) but I love my job, it pays well, and it's very secure (as far as private industry goes).
I guess it depends where you are (Score:2)
I have worked in both the public and the private sector in the UK and Europe, and I have to say that both have their advantages and disadvantages.
However, one thing I do believe is that, at least in Europe, the competition for public sector jobs is much higher than the private sector, and the standards are much higher.
You wouldn't believe what you have to go through to get a graduate level job in Brussels at the European headquarters. Microsoft like to boast about how difficult their selection process is, but I bet it's not half as difficult as the EUs process. I didn't get past the first hurdle.
The first step is an exam which is incredibly difficult. I consider myself quite intelligent, and got a good degree from a good university, but it was the hardest exam I have ever taken. I don't know what my score was but I doubt it was above 40%.
Then you have to do written and oral exams in two different european languages, and you are expected to be fluent in both of them.
Only after that do you come to the interviews, and then I think there were a couple more stages after that.
I eventually got a job in uk government, but for that I was competing against 200 others for a single position.
I have to say that getting a job with a fortune 500 IT company was very much easier.
Why I'm not a civil servant... (Score:2)
``Hard money'' is the career goal of most young scientists, regardless of field. Those two words mean that your salary is paid regardless of what you do. A traditional way to get hard money is to work through the university system and become a tenured professor somewhere. The other main way is to become a civil servant at a government research lab. Once you're in, you're in. As a scientist, you're essentially bulletproof: it's very hard to fire a civil servant, especially one with as nebulous a set of responsibilities as a scientist carries.
But there are drawbacks too. With the security of a government job come responsibilities ranging from the trivial (such as not being allowed to eat the free doughnuts at a meeting) to the ludicrous (I went to a meeting held at the 1998 eclipse site on the island of Guadaloupe. My civil service friends were required to book hotels 25 miles away to save a few bucks a night -- but then they discovered that their hotel was on another island!) to the onerous (e.g. it's difficult to travel, get equipment, or hire help).
I ended up taking a ``soft money'' position at a nonprofit research institute. The downside is that I have to find sources of income (grants) to support myself. The upside is that when I want a book, I buy it; when there's a meeting I should attend, I go to it; and if I have an idea for a new instrument or analysis technique, I can just implement it. Management is very supportive.
Civil service is great -- but on the other hand, the people who are most attracted to it are the people who value security above opportunity. That fosters a CYA culture and makes it difficult to get things done (such as science). Although tenure and absolute job security in principal make it possible to explore unpopular-but-important ideas (and many civil servants are very productive!), they also make it possible to relax into a not-very-productive rut.
The entrepreneurial spirit of soft-money research labs, ironically, makes it easier to have (some kinds of) bold ideas, simply because you have to do something to keep yourself going. That small-but-significant frisson of worry about the future keeps people on their toes and thinking creatively. Ordinary entrepreneurs must get it in spades.
Corp. & gov. cultures both vary widely (Score:2)
On the private sector side, if you want less stress, choose your industry wisely. A friend switched from investment banking to insurance here in NYC, and, guess what, insurance is still the same old lazy industry it's been for centuries, quite resembling the ideal government backwater, for those attracted to such locales.
WRONG question (Score:3, Informative)
How the Hell am I ever going to get a job?
Not as much difference as you'd think (Score:3, Informative)
to justify saying "private only" or "public
only". In the public sector, you've got a lesser
chance of losing your job, and you won't get rich.
Everything else is up to the people and the
politics.
Yes, I've worked with people who should never have
been promoted in the public sector, and were
essentially unfireable. I've also worked with
people who were unfireable due to office politics,
or because they got the company started with
massive code-and-test efforts to get mostly
usable (although undocumented) software.
I've seen both private and public shops where
the bosses were power-hungry idiots in it for their
own ego, and where they were good guys and worked
hard at letting people do their best. Ditto with
shops where you couldn't get anything new and
shops where you could get new stuff and experiment.
So, I'd suggest that you keep your mind open, and
learn about each individual workplace, assuming
you can get a choice in this job market. Avoid
workplaces where there are large numbers of Dilbert
cartoons on the walls, since they are probably
there for a reason. Avoid workplaces where there
are none, since then management probably had to
ban them.
Re:amazing story (Score:2)
Then you discussed it.
Then you said "But really, who cares, decide yourself." (A glib comment that could be lofted at any Ask
Then you criticized the piece again. (!)
To think, people wonder why some folks won't take the initiative to end abusive relationships. Funny stuff.
Re:more fluctuations in public (Score:2)
Re:Private (Score:2)
Somebody, 'slowness' will come back in favour. The fast and loose world of the private sector can be personally fulfilling, but its all about risking (usually other people's) money. By-the-seat-of-your-pants 'innovation' found in the private sector can be a very self-serving career. Definately fun, like a roller coaster. You might make the mad cash, but what you actually produce is probably going to affect less people than the work public sector employees do.
Its called "The Parents Factor". Sure, parents are slow, uncool, not hip, too cautious, but what alotta folks don't realize is that the types of things the government, parents, and any governing body that must ensure and maintain the quality of life of people *requires* slowness and caution in order to avoid the crash-and-burn approach of the private sector. Failed private sector enterprises do not get punished by voters, and usually the 'motivated, ambitious' entrepeneurs escape with their wealth intact while investors scratch their heads. Slow and steady, thats the government, and considering the things that they are charged to do, I'm thankful for it. Folks that outright dismiss the public sector in favour of the private sector are simply suffering from a bad case of the optics - your perspective on the private sector hinges mostly on the wins, while the massive amounts of wasted money that comes from frivilous ambition to create shit usually flies under the radar of most people's perspectives.
Re:Private (Score:2)
As compared to the public sector?
Tell me, whose money does the Government risk?
Re:Private (Score:2)