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Inside Ximian

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the dry-erase dept.

Ximian 203

An anonymous reader writes "Linux and Main is running a story of a visit to Ximian headquarters and a talk with Nat Friedman, Miguel de Icaza, and Jon Perr about GNOME2, Ximian 2, and getting Linux onto the corporate desktop. Interesting and funny, with lots of details about the place and the guys."

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203 comments

Ximian rox =) (0, Offtopic)

willie3204 (444890) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231515)

FP

Re:Ximian rox =) (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231800)

Anna Dirks is hott

Prepare for War! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232282)

Are you prepared to die for your rights and freedom?

Are you prepared to kill?

September 11th marks a turning point in history. The day the islamic world showed its true face. The terror of that fateful day need not be recalled here, for there are far worthier media outlets that can stage a fitting tribute to the fallen. But the repercussions of this event have been felt for the past 365 days.

Notice how you don't feel as secure as you did in employment. Notice how suddenly your salary doesn't stretch as far as it used to? Notice the lump tightening in your gut every time you see an islamic walking freely.

Now ask yourself? Have you let the terrorists win?

They are laughing at us. The whole islamic world is laughing at us. They will be in our streets tomorrow, cheering and celebrating the act of mass murder. Why are they permitted to support acts of barbarism?

Why? Because we live in a Free Country. Yet, paradoxically, it is our freedom which offends the islamic the most. They know fine well that in their barbaric despotisms they would not be permitted ANY means of protest against the goverment. Yet, not only are they free to protest, to burn our flag, but they are nigh on ENCOURAGED to do so by the liberal media.

Switch on your television set tomorrow. You'll see them. The liberals. Plump and fat with the rich pickings of their well-fed middle class white heritage, they shall be bleating that somehow, it's all America's fault. That America is a nation forged from genocide, that the numbers of children killed in Iraq and Afghanistan far outweigh the tiny little statistic of the World Trade Centre murders. Making us feel guilty for the privledge of being noble-hearted Americans. Denying our nation the opportunity to mourn.

We face a twin pronged attack. The liberal media, forever assaulting the values we hold dear, and the islamic menace. A permanent threat that has been allowed to continue far too long.

Understand that for an islamic, the idea that a non-islamic should be permitted to live in peace is HERESY. Like any good brain-washing cult, islamics are indoctrinated from birth and are forced to remember every verse in their "Terrorist's Handbook", the Koran. Without recourse to other treatises on morality, is it any wonder that islamics have degenerated to the point of raw animal savagery?

As long as islamics are tolerated in decent society, there will always be terrorism. They want to see this 'decent society' destroyed from within. Notice how, although islamic culture is supposed to be a 'paradise', these animals cannot WAIT to get out of their own countries and into Western civilization.

Why is this? Surely, it is a core belief of islam that a muslim should offer shelter to their fellow muslim. So, why is Europe infested with the black cancer of 'asylum seekers'? The answer is simple. Asylum seekers are an invasion force. Entering decent countries and tearing them apart from within. Demanding to be treated with more privledge than the native population. Clogging up government services and squandering taxpayers money without offering anything back to the society they force to become their home. Other than an increase in crime rates, of course.

Surely a western government is in place "For the people"? Ask ANY European Citizen whether they want asylum resettlement centres in their towns, and you'll recieve a unanimous "Non". So why is THIS invasion tolerated?

Socialism! Successive socialist goverments in Europe have allowed the islamic cancer to spread unchecked. This is why, even though islam is a religion, and not a skin colour, every muslim knows how to cry "racist" whenever they are asked to behave like a human being.

For a 'just' and 'tolerant' religion, it is shocking to see how quickly islamic settlement areas degenerate into high crime zones, where the rest of society; be they white, chinese, hindu, sikh, whatever; fears to walk. There are areas of all our inner cities which operate under strict Sharia law in all but name. Gangs of muslim youths roam freely, each one of them a mini Bin Laden.

This is the army which we must face. Together, not as whites, or purebreed aryans, or any of that bullshit, but as AMERICANS, we must stand together. For even the most liberal of human beings knows, in their heart, that islam poses a threat to the very foundation of our existance.

We have guns. We need to use them before further liberalism pries them from our grasps. Because we know that THEY have guns as well. And they are just waiting for the call from their Terrorist Training Camps (mosques) to begin the holy jihad. And it will be the blood of our families, our beloved ones, that will be spilled if we don't act. We must act soon and decisively. Entering the muslim-held areas en masse and eliminating their foul subhuman breed for good. For once our country is purged, and no more islamics are permitted entry, we know we shall be steadfast on the road to security.

The muslim's heart craves war, and on September 11th 2001 they chose to bring the battle onto the streets of America.

September 11th 2002 shall be the day we fight back. Our new Independance Day.

I ask you now, if any word of this diatribe strikes a chord in your heart, PLEASE post it on. Usenet. Online forums. Wherever. Because, despite decades of liberal propaganda, you know that every word said is forged from the cold, harsh flame of truth.

Re:Prepare for War! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232539)

Your diatribe is much appreciated.

Dear Michael: (-1)

Hemos (editor) (569506) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231516)

You're fired.

Let this be a lesson. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231522)

If you kiss Microsoft's ass, you'll contract Mono.

Re:Let this be a lesson. (2, Funny)

Computer! (412422) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232305)

"Microsoft really knows how to turn up the pain on its customers," says Nat. "It's like The Princess Bride, in the scene where he cranked up the pain."

Linux sucks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231530)

slashdot sucks
Your mom sucks..muy bien

Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231532)

Your article sounded like nothing but Nazi anti-Intel, Microsoft (Wintel) propaganda to me. I can see in a few years time when still nobody listens to you about upgrading their computers you start spouting stuff like 'Intel and Microsoft use mind control on your children' or 'Buying Intel and Microsoft Products will give you cancer'. Why do you hate these companies so much, is it that they posses powers you don't? Is it that they have such awe-inspiring control over our industry, is it that their products are significantly more expensive than their competitors, or is it you wish you were in their position and you had the ability to do what they do?

I am a person who wants freedom of speech, I want to be able to do whatever I like with my machine and my software.. But one thing I don't mind doing (which seems to be your major complaint) is paying for my software. The content should be provided on copy proof media, digitally signed and linked directly to your pc.. And what do you care if you've paid for the software? You shouldn't give a damn that's what. Basically you can't stand the fact they'll stop you from copy media and distributing it amongst your friends, or buying or borrowing from some scabby little shop or from another source. They employed the people that make these products, they pay all the R&D and other related costs, they pay their employees salaries so why shouldn't they charge you for the privilege of using it? And why shouldn't they protect their software from being copied and distributed..

And if you bother with the argument 'Linux is free' then you're worse than I originally thought. Have you ever tried installing any of the versions of Linux? It's complete shit and it looks fuck1ng awful. My brother can setup our family pc with new hardware and drivers, he can install and configure networking and dialup properties and he can do all this without speaking to anyone in technical support. This is all thanks to Microsoft. Put even myself in front of a Linux machine for just five minutes and I want to clobber the crap out of it with the 700 page 'SPAKKERS GUIDE TO LINUX' book. It is very 'normal user' unfriendly, and unless you have sandals, a beard and a degree in Kernel compiling you can't get any of the fucking hardware to work.. Oh and did I mention the GUI's in Linux look like something I crapped out after a curry and 7 beers last weekend.

XP is just great, I have it on my Dell Inspiron 8200 and it hasn't crashed or performed any weird operations ever. I play games, video edit, surf, and more or less anything else you can imagine.. I like the extra features in XP (Office and Windows) and I think it looks better than that 80's throwback Windows 98. Microsoft have got it right with this one and you've got it wrong. Instead of Wintel bashing why don't you get into Seal clubbing? At least the effects of your job would be more noticeable.

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231560)

please do not attempt to rationalize with slashdot linux zealots..they do not comprehend reality, instead choosing to live in a dreamworld based more on socialism than capitalism.

thank you

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231586)

Wow, this was a truly spectacular troll. Congrats.

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (1)

rkhalloran (136467) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231613)

The EXACT SAME troll showed up in The Register's letter column; didn't get enough response there, binky?

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231668)

He got one from you, donkey puncher.

Thank you! You have protected the inocent from... (-1)

Salad Shooter (600065) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231674)

an evil troll. You are so cool! Could I be your friend?

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (1, Offtopic)

Pfhreakaz0id (82141) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231869)

See. Anything that is based on "reality" is called a "troll" by the /. faithful and modded out of existence, so they don't have to confront these "facts". You are obviously new here :)

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232221)

yeah right, the reality is that capitalism is evil. everything should be free, and linux will see to that. NO ONE SHOULD PAY FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN SUPPORT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. that's what those fucking hippies want, to give away their cash-offerings and become tech-support drones. GO OPEN SOURCE, GO! I think we should create a time-machine and throw Richard Stallman back in the fucking 60's.

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231714)

"it hasn't crashed or performed any weird operations ever"

This post has a Pinocchio rating of 12 inches.

Re:Ximian? Linux on teh Corporate desktop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232194)

wow, open-source FUD. Imagine that. There are many, many, many, many people who will tell you that windows 2000 and XP don't crash any more than linux does. quit licking other people's balls and tend to your own or go back to moscow-stock you filthy communist hippie.

Ximian (2, Insightful)

jflash (591249) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231535)

And once we're in there, we discover that not all Open Source developers are Dope Smoking Long Haired Linux Hippies...


Jim

Re:Ximian (0)

Cosmicfool (564902) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231564)

No... all open source developers are pot smoking hippies. it's been verified by several studies... true story.

Re:Ximian (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231620)

And once we're in there, we discover that not all Open Source developers are Dope Smoking Long Haired Linux Hippies... no, we discover that in this particular instance they're a bunch of border jumping Mexicans. Once their little company fails I'll gladly pay Miguel $3.50 an hour to trim my hedges.

running out VC yet, guys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231541)

i'm waiting for the flame-out!

Re:running out VC yet, guys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232251)

People are probably lining up at their door for that outlook plug in thing. and if that isn't happening, there is always the 4 people paying for "support". I am sure the $200/month they get for actual services and products pays for all their overhead/costs. ther e is always hp who is giving them money. they are a certain funding source. and sun, who is rock solid financially, will always donate some cash to the ximian people.

Development isn't much different than Everquest (4, Funny)

jsonmez (544764) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231545)

"Oh, yes! Writing code and squashing bugs. I usually get here at 7, 7:30 a.m., and I learned not to turn on the lights, because there are probably people who have been here all night coding, who are asleep on the couch or the floor."

Re:Development isn't much different than Everquest (2)

Christopher Thomas (11717) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231790)

"Oh, yes! Writing code and squashing bugs. I usually get here at 7, 7:30 a.m., and I learned not to turn on the lights, because there are probably people who have been here all night coding, who are asleep on the couch or the floor."

Also much like grad school (weekends? What are those?)

Quick... (-1, Offtopic)

nochops (522181) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231558)

Trashdot Editors: "Quick, cmdr...post a bunch of new lame stories right away. That'll force our obvious lame troll "Florida voting" story down on the page so no one will reply anymore."

Re:Quick... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231706)

Trashdot Editors: "Quick, cmdr...post a bunch of new lame stories right away. That'll force our obvious lame troll "Florida voting" story down on the page so no one will reply anymore."

Er... The correct term is "Trashdot Janitor". plz fx thx

Why do people use ximian? (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231575)

I've often wondered why people bother with ximian. Are the packages it releases any better than the ones released by gnome itself?

Sure, it has a pretty autoupdate feature, but then so does debian and mandrake, and it can be added to redhat, .... And if you install it then your installation seems to be not quite compatible with a standard gnome install.

Is it yet another linux company that is going to crash and burn once it runs out of VC? Just what is there to encourage people to pay them money?

Corrin (sounding really like a troll...)

Re:Why do people use ximian? (2)

Wdomburg (141264) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231934)

>I've often wondered why people bother with ximian.
>Are the packages it releases any better than the
>ones released by gnome itself?

The Gnome project doesn't provide packages at all, so yes, the Ximian packages are better because they exist. :)

What they're really competing against is the distribution offerings. It seems the common consensus that Ximian is a much more polished product; e.g. the misfeature of filenames in save dialogs disappearing if you changed directories was first fixed in their distribution.

It becomes even more of an issue if you're running an older distribution, since the majority of companies only release bug fixes rather than new versions of software. So if you're running Red Hat 6.2 you have the option of sticking with Gnome 1.0.55, which shipped with it, compiling from scratch, or installing Ximian, which is based off 1.4.0.

>Sure, it has a pretty autoupdate feature, but
>then so does debian and mandrake

I'm not familiar with the Mandrake solution, but Ximian is much more end user friendly than apt-get. I'm an experienced user, and I still find value in having a simple graphical interface to browse through updates.

>and it can be added to redhat ... and one of the ways you can add autoupdating is by downloading Red Carpet. :)

>.... And if you install it then your
>installation seems to be not quite compatible
>with a standard gnome install.

What's not compatible? I've never had issues running either binaries or source I've compiled myself, and I've been running Ximian since they were Helix.

>Is it yet another linux company that is going to
>crash and burn once it runs out of VC?

Without looking at their financials, wouldn't be able to tell you. :)

You should keep in mind, however, that their revenue is solely from product sales. Both Sun and Hewlett Packard have contracted them for work on getting Gnome ported and packaged to their respective platforms.

>Just what is there to encourage people to pay
>them money?

Depends on the person. Someone looking for interoperability with Exchange might be encouraged by Red Carpet. Someone looking to deliver a standard desktop with centralized management across multiple platforms might be tempted by Ximian Gnome and Red Carpet CorporateConnect.

And I've already given examples of programming contracts.

Matt

Re:Why do people use ximian? (2)

Tadghe (18215) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232165)

To Moderate or post...oh what the hell.

>>.... And if you install it then your
>>installation seems to be not quite compatible
>>with a standard gnome install.

> What's not compatible? I've never had issues running either
> binaries or source I've compiled myself, and I've been running
> Ximian since they were Helix.

I think what the orig poster may have been talking about is what happens when you Install Ximian and then try to use anything *other* than Redcarpet to update...up2date doesn't play well with Ximian packages, and it makes upgrading your distro a PITA (first have to force rpm to remove all the Ximian packages, then upgrade, then reinstall Ximian...and hope it works).

I'd disagree with you on the apt-get being hard comment, but I don't use debian on desktops.

Fenway neighborhood, huh? (3, Funny)

slagdogg (549983) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231580)

Well, let's hope Ximian has a better year than the Red Sox ...

Re:Fenway neighborhood, huh? (2, Offtopic)

BurritoWarrior (90481) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231657)

Or Century.

The last time the Red Sox won, they had Civil War veterans in the stands.

Re:Fenway neighborhood, huh? (1)

BlackBolt (595616) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232156)

Yeah, before they were veterans.

BlackBolt

Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (3, Interesting)

lakeland (218447) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231608)

I've often wondered why people bother with ximian. Are the packages it releases any better than the ones released by gnome itself?

Sure, it has a pretty autoupdate feature, but then so does debian and mandrake, and it can be added to redhat, .... And if you install it then your installation seems to be not quite compatible with a standard gnome install.

I can see why people would install gnome2 over kde3, although I personally prefer kde, but why would you install ximian gnome over normal gnome?

Is it yet another linux company that is going to crash and burn once it runs out of VC? Just what is there to encourage people to pay them money?

Corrin (sounding really like a troll...)

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (2, Informative)

mrcparker (469158) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231632)

From what I have read, Ximian gets a whole lot of their financing through contracts with Unix companies like Sun to port GNOME to their architecture.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231680)

I have to agree with your comments, as well as point out an RMS issue. Especially with the new features in KDE 3.1, Xiamian is gonna be blown away. What is up with the closed source Exchange interface? That is so lame, fortunately KDE developers are hard at work on an opensource version. My, has worm turned or what? I recall a few years ago deIcaza et. al. were bitching about the non-gpl QT license. Well, looks like they're gonna have to eat their words...

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (3, Interesting)

afidel (530433) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231772)

two words: ximian connector This is a killer app for us as we are (unfortunately) transitioning to a unified messagin/calandering system based around exchange. While imap will work for messaging something like connector is needed for calandering.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231996)

You might want to look in downloading "aspell" via red-carpet, as well.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (5, Informative)

chetohevia (109956) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231782)

Ximian GNOME has a number of advantages over the standard desktop GNOME that comes with your distro.

For the desktop itself, we put a lot of effort into making sure it's more attractive, easier to use, and better updated. We focus on the desktop, we're desktop experts, and it shows.

* If you're using it in a large company, it's cheaper because it's the same on more than one platform: this consistency makes both UNIX and Linux systems less expensive to support. (This portion, by the way, is free).

* People buy Ximian Connector because they want to be able to connect to Exchange 2000 systems without having to use Outlook Web Access and without having to use a Windows box. Especially in large corporations where engineering is a Linux/UNIX installed base, it's important to be able to schedule with the management and use the shared address books and so forth; if you can't, you might as well not exist.

* People use the Red Carpet CorporateConnect service in order to have a stable, cross-platform way to ship their own software, plus operating system and desktop software from multiple vendors. They need to manage software installation sets and updates across multiple platforms, without vendor lock-in.

* Companies like HP and Sun pay us to perform custom development work, including accessibility improvements and platform ports.

* Individuals like you sign up for Red Carpet Express to get faster downloads.

* Linux ISVs can ship software through Red Carpet or Red Carpet Express. This isn't a really big business now, but it has potential.

Is that a reasonable enough answer?

For more information about Ximian desktop software and other products and services, feel free to visit http://ximian.com, write to us, or fill out the information request form at ximian.com/about_us/contact/information.html.

Yours,
Aaron Weber
Ximian, Inc.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (2)

sbuckhopper (12316) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231848)

You said:
* Companies like HP and Sun pay us to perform custom development work, including accessibility improvements and platform ports.

As an honest question (and I'm not trolling here) based on the recent news of Bruce Parens' forced departure from HP and the reasons for a forced departure, does Ximian still do work for HP? By HP's statements it sounds like they now think that Linux is a passing fad.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (5, Funny)

PD (9577) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231910)

Thank you for not using the words "productize", "big picture", "methodology", "consumers", "leverage", "methodology", or "proactive" in your description of what your company does. I could actually understand every word of what you wrote.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (2)

g4dget (579145) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231940)

Is it available for OSX and Windows as well?

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232291)

"* If you're using it in a large company, it's cheaper because it's the same on more than one platform: this consistency makes both UNIX and Linux systems less expensive to support. (This portion, by the way, is free)."

If you weren't such hypocrites, it would all be free and open. I do recall Miguel preaching up a storm when it came to non-GPL software awhile back. Apparently his ideals and beliefs have been sold out in an attempt to become something bigger. Surely with big buisnesses like Sun and HPaq backing you, you could do the "Right Thing" and provide the source code to all of your software. I'm sure I don't need to provide a link to Stallman's page, but you and your colleagues would be well advised to read his wise words.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (3, Interesting)

Skuld-Chan (302449) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231842)

I don't think so really and they really only work on redhat variants. I've found that on debian it really trashes dependancies.

Bravo! (0, Offtopic)

slutmonkey (607618) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231843)

So, would anyone care to explain how this [slashdot.org] post garners -1 Flamebait, but the parent is 3 Informative?

Anyone?

Bunch of AC hataz!

Why We bought Ximian (2, Insightful)

ike42 (596470) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231874)

My research lab has bought Redcarpet subscriptions for all our linux workstations. There are several good reasons for this over the alternatives you suggest:
  1. Ximian's Gnome really is tidiest and most frequently updated Gnome distribution. Although they have fallen behind some others with Gnome2, I expect things to get back to normal when they do release.
  2. Redcarpet does much more than update Gnome; you can use it to manage software installation accross a network. It has channels for updating several linux distros, StarOffice, Codeweavers stuff, VMWare, etc. None of the other automatic update tools really compare in content or in ease of use.
  3. If you purchase you can have automatic updates and use redcarpet to manage installation of your own software.

If you only manage one computer, and you like to spend your time installing and updating software, then you probably don't really need to pay for Ximian. But it is great if you've got other things to do then worrying about keeping a mess of workstations updated.

However, if you like a company's product you should buy it. By purchasing from Ximian we are helping to support Gnome development. It is just self-interest. Gnome is good for us, so we pay for Gnome.

The Question is: Why would a Corporation by it? (2)

GroundBounce (20126) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231932)

From the article and other statements they've made, they are really going after corporate desktops with their for-sale products. There's really no reason for an individual user to actually buy the CD since it can be downloaded. If I remember correctly, the whole thing is only 80Mb or so (it installs to around 200Mb), so it's possible even with a modem connection.

Corporate users who decide to adopt Linux and GNOME for their desktops may indeed decide to buy it, however. If Ximian can really provide a consistent and reliable set of applications, easy updates, and support, then corporations may perceive it as a viable alternative to the endless Microsoft license cycle. If they feel they will get timely support, painless updates, and good consistency, then they will be willing to pay for it; it will still cost them a bundle less than MS.

Although paying for free software sounds like an oxymoron, corporations are willing to do it if they perceive it buys them consistency and support.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (3, Informative)

SLot (82781) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232030)

Sure, it has a pretty autoupdate feature, but then so does debian and mandrake, and it can be added to redhat, .... And if you install it then your installation seems to be not quite compatible with a standard gnome install.

The easiest way I've seen to keep Ximian from screwing up things that up2date should do (thanks /. poster who originally wrote this!) is to get a list of ximianized packages, tell up2date to ignore them in /etc/sysconfig/rhn/up2date in the pkgSkipList section.

Something like:
rpm -qa --queryformat "%{NAME}\t%{VENDOR}\n" | awk '$2 ~ /Ximian/ {print $1}' |sort | perl -pe 's/\n/;/' > ximian.list

works well for me.

Re:Why _do_ people buy Ximian? (1)

BlackBolt (595616) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232180)

Whoa. Deja vu.

BlackBolt

As an ex-Ximian user... (3, Insightful)

Sanity (1431) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232380)

...I found it best to stick with my distro [redhat.com] 's default version of Gnome, and use apt-get [freshrpms.net] to keep my system up-to-date. I found that Ximian's "Red Carpet" software had a nasty habit of screwing up the RPM dependencies on my system, and while visually appealing, I didn't really like its interface (for example, the way you need to click on every single package you want upgraded even if there are 50, 60, or 100 of them).

I also got the impression that the purpose of Red Carpet was more to-do with providing Ximian with some kind of business model, than actually providing useful functionality to the end-user - otherwise why not just build it around apt-get and give us all some flexibility?

In the end, I didn't really see any solid advantage to going with Ximian Gnome (although I do like Evolution), and it had the disadvantage of making my rpm dependency tree more complicated than it needs to be.

Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (3, Informative)

ekrout (139379) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231609)

1) Does it have to be aesthetically-pleasing to the eye?

Yes.

2) Does it have to be just like MS Windows?

No. Working with any computer's interface is a learned behavior. People learned about the _ [ ] X buttons at the top right of their programs because every computer they sat down at was running Windows. They soon realized that the X closed a window, the _ made it temporarily dissappear.

Many studies say that modern day UI must "look like a Microsoft product". Sorry to break it to you, Sun et al., but this simply isn't true.

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (4, Insightful)

mackstann (586043) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231691)

Many studies say that modern day UI must "look like a Microsoft product". Sorry to break it to you, Sun et al., but this simply isn't true.

If only UI developers would take that to heart....I look at Gnome, I see a windows knock-off. I look at KDE, I see a pretty windows knock-off, with OSX knock-off bitmaps.

Why can't the open source desktop people come up with something innovative and useful instead of trying to build a cradle for all of the MS converts?

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231736)

Many studies say that modern day UI must "look like a Microsoft product". Sorry to break it to you, Sun et al., but this simply isn't true.

If only UI developers would take that to heart....I look at Gnome, I see a windows knock-off. I look at KDE, I see a pretty windows knock-off, with OSX knock-off bitmaps.

Why can't the open source desktop people come up with something innovative and useful instead of trying to build a cradle for all of the MS converts?


Software doesn't have to look like a microsoft app, but it DOES have to be easily usable, and the fastest way to get there is to make it work the same way as all the other applications a user is familiar with, which necessitates design decisions like the ones micrsoft has made.

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (2)

g4dget (579145) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231971)

You assume that there is a single standard of usability that applies to all people and all applications. That's completely bogus. Microsoft's UI may work well for some people, and it doesn't work well for many others. Do we all drive the same car? Do we all wear the same clothes? Do we all listen to the same music? Why should we all use the same kind of UI?

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (1)

Wiwi Jumbo (105640) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232259)

Personally, I feel you have it the wrong way around....

"Microsoft's UI may work well for many people, and it doesn't work well for some others."

But maybe that's just me....

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (2, Interesting)

BlackBolt (595616) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232525)

Why should we all use the same kind of UI?

Because the desktop model is the best one we have right now, just like cars all seem to have four wheels, even though they're all different models and colours, and clothing is all basically designed the same, and music typically follows the same patterns and rhythms.

When somebody comes up with something more intuitive, 3-dimensional, or whatever, all the OSes will flock to it. But until someone figures it out, this is all we got. See what you can do. I've tried, and it always comes back to the current design, or thereabouts (title bars, icons, etc.). Any variation is usually weaker. I personally think that to evolve from this system, we have to ditch the monitor and get something else.

BlackBolt

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (2)

krogoth (134320) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232479)

Such as?

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232555)

No shit! It seems that whenever someone talks about gnome/kde/whatever there's some knucklehead who bitches about 'windows copies' and wants to see something really new and useful. I think most of them want to see something that looks different or flashier, but works the same way. There are quite a few features to the current window managers that make them functionally better than 'windows' -- if somebody wants a completely new interface model, they better come up with a suggestion, because I haven't seen _anything_ that looks more useful than the current situation.

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (2)

the gnat (153162) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232497)

I've found WindowMaker (or AfterStep) does quite well in this regard. Sure, it's another knockoff (of a truly innovative OS), but it's nothing like Windows. It's also quite stable and much faster than GNOME or KDE. It just isn't as intuitive for first-time users, and since it doesn't behave like Windows and thus doesn't meet the demands of idiots and corporate types who think Linux needs a standard GUI, all the development effort and publicity goes into GNOME and KDE.

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (2)

NineNine (235196) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232522)

Why can't the open source desktop people come up with something innovative and useful instead of trying to build a cradle for all of the MS converts?


Because they're trying to sell to MS converts. Believe it or not, but most people have better things to do than to learn how to use a new GUI.

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (2)

steveha (103154) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232546)

Why can't the open source desktop people come up with something innovative and useful instead of trying to build a cradle for all of the MS converts?

Let's turn that around. How about you show me a user interface that you consider innovative and useful, and then we'll see how it compares with GNOME 2 and Windows.

Any desktop interface that I would want to use will have certain elements in common: windows I can resize, that can overlap, and that can be dragged around; title bars that help me sort out which window is which; some indicator of what apps I have running and a way to switch among them; etc. GNOME 2 does many of these things the same way Windows does, and that's fine with me.

Don't forget that Microsoft has hired usability experts and done usability testing; some of their features really are the best way to do things.

So, as a starting point, a Windows-ish interface isn't bad. And GNOME 2 lets you customize things your way. Do you want the Mac OS X "traffic light" buttons in the upper-left of each window? You can do that. Do you hate the "foot" menu (the GNOME answer to the "Start" menu)? Get rid of it; you can, easily. So far, GNOME lets me do everything I actually want to do.

steveha

Re:Frequently Asked User Interface Questions (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231838)

oh piss off, you fucking monkey

GNOME2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231614)

Inside Ximain - answer this: where the hell are the GNOME 2 packages?! (and no, not the snapshots)

Who Cares? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231627)

Face it, GNOME2 is just as ugly as ever, especially when compared to KDE. This article has about as much content as The National Inquirer. Also, this "closed" source exchange client just proves that deIcaza has sold out. Fortunately the people over at KDE are developing an opensource version. At least that fool "The Rasterman" isn't still out and about...

GNOME2 & Candy for the desktop (-1)

Strom Thurmond (R-SC (310866) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231628)

It all started with XP's Luna and OS X's Aqua, and now it has permiated the World of 'Nix as well....THE CANDY LOOK! (AKA Fischer Price GUI's)

The various desktops of the "in" crowd will be seen sporting brightly colored, translucent-looking smoothed, and rounded shaped widgets and
miscellaneous desktop adornments along with cycle-sucking resource-hogging graphics and animations.

This look seems to be most popular with younger persons (especially adolescents as it reminds them of sweets), obese persons (as it is reminiscent of food), and mentally challenged individuals (who are attracted to bright colors and smooth shapes).

The popular Desktop Environments such as GNOME2 and KDE3 offer themes that emulate this style of desktop for those who care for it.

Oddly enough, just as too much candy causes cavities, too much eye candy on the desktop seems to have a similar effect. On a system with 512MB RAM, KDE loaded with all the spiffies turned on and a candied theme chomps up a whopping 284MB RAM just on load up! As compared to a plain jane desktop theme and no extras which leveled out at about 96MB RAM.

Now we begin to see why the Minimum requirements for XP are so high, eh?

For those of you who are not stuck with having to use one of these interfaces, you could save yourself alot of resources by turning the happy
off.

Good arguments not to use Ximian (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231648)

I usually get here at 7, 7:30 a.m., and I learned not to turn on the lights, because there are probably people who have been here all night coding, who are asleep on the couch or the floor.

All night coding = bug-ridden and backdoor prone
Real programmers can estimante time costs, keep shedule and only program when they are well off and have maximum concentration.
I suppose Linux will never leave the hobbyist stage.

Re:Good arguments not to use Ximian (2)

Mark Gordon (14545) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231823)

A couple of our programmers are night owls. Yes, they work all night, but they sleep all day. Gets a bit inconvenient having to walk around them when they're sprawled out, but it doesn't affect the code quality.

Mod +1 Funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232317)

(Well, it was, wasn't it?)

Re:Good arguments not to use Ximian (1)

BlackBolt (595616) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232564)

Yes, and they all wear blue shirts and ties every day. And they all drive Volvos and SUVs.

Thanks for the stereotyping and generalizations, it stops people from thinking.

BlackBolt

Geek Nostalgia (2)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231651)

The offices are not as one imagines but instead as one dared not hope them to be -- almost movie-set hackerdom with such corporate accoutrements as are absolutely necessary. Here is a big room, plumbing and air ductwork covering much of the ceiling, Brazil-style. In the third of it unencumbered by cubicle dividers arranged to provide both private workspace and openness, there are beanbag chairs, tall stools and cafe tables, and a couch, arranged in no particular fashion. The lights are not on. ("On Fridays we have a group lunch, and one of the teams makes a presentation," the visitor is told. "That's why it's dark.") Here and there, wiring that would be ceiling lights of some sort dangles from the neo-industrial architecture above. They have no bulbs and, strangely, look better that way.

*sigh* reminds me of the place I worked last year before the layoffs hit. I'm miss working there. The work environment was just like this, the people were talented and smart, and the work was challenging and fun. Those were the days.

Re:Geek Nostalgia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231683)

Did ever occur the thought to you that your company went down because of this environment ?Economics is something for professionals which must be done professionally. It's not a hobby or a game.

Re:Geek Nostalgia (2)

cjpez (148000) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231776)

MAXOMENOS' company went down because they had a beanbag chair?

Re:Geek Nostalgia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231862)

I guess they should have bought more Aerons...

Re:Geek Nostalgia (1)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232487)

Did ever occur the thought to you that your company went down because of this environment?

More likely it went down because all the companies that loved our product decided not to buy until the economy improved.

Re:Geek Nostalgia (1)

TheKubrix (585297) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231897)

damn you, now you made me all depressed, I had that too till that *#@$!@ merger between Bell Atlantic and GTE, now I rot here doing pidly things and no cool lunch room with a big screen :(

How to cheat on holdthebutton.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231663)

When holding the button, right click your mouse, the flash context menu will now pop-up. Due to the crappy nature of flash, the button will stay "pressed". Just left click when you "held" the button for a few weeks.

building (2, Funny)

manon (112081) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231665)

Did you notice the building Ximian is located in? Looks so .gov to me... I'll better run a 'find / -name "gnome.nsa"' fast

Re:building (1)

joelgrimes (130046) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231951)

I thought that picture of the building must be a joke.

If it's not then WHERE THE HELL DO THEY GET THAT KIND OF MONEY?

Re:building [not AC, just don't have password ATM] (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231981)

[Ximian employee, but I can't find my login/pass ATM.]

It's an old Sears building, and actually on the National Register of Historic Places. It's also a bit misleading- we've got one quarter of one floor of the place, not the whole damn thing. The picture used in the article manages to crop out that part of the building, even. :) So, yeah... wish we had enough cash to have the whole building. No serious danger of us buying out the Best Buy, the movie theater, or Blue Cross of Massachusetts yet.

Re:building (2)

nathanm (12287) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232545)

Did you notice the building Ximian is located in? Looks so .gov to me...
No, it was a common building design in the earlier part of the 20th Century. Another poster to this thread mentioned it used to be a Sears building at one point. There is an almost identical building here in Minneapolis that also used to be a Sears, and another half dozen with similar designs elsewhere in the Minneapolis/St Paul area.

Icaza's office? Isn't that in Redmond? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231688)

n/t

Re:Icaza's office? Isn't that in Redmond? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232360)

I heard it was in a dog house underneth bill gates desk..so he can pleasure him

Cool logo (5, Funny)

capnkid (87180) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231703)

Well the project sounds ambitious and all... but I tend to gauge the success of a company such as this by how cool their logo is. I think these guys are going to have a great future. Anybody else as shallow as me?

Re:Cool logo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231758)

looks like a guy bending over to me

appropriate enough for a company trying to make it in the 'linux desktop' dream-world.

Re:Cool logo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231780)

I'm dancing like a monkey!!!!
(but i wanna use caps damnit)
-Gir

Re:Cool logo (2)

fault0 (514452) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231778)

I like Ximian's logo and all, but I'm not sure I like the name. The monkey metaphor is just too George W. Bush-ish [esreality.com]

Re:Cool logo (1)

stankyho (172180) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232021)

It actually has always reminded me of the DRI logo.
Dirty Rotten Imbeciles [aol.com]

Re:Cool logo (2, Funny)

BlackBolt (595616) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232645)

Please don't insult the monkeys. At least you could say that it's a Ballmerific! metaphor.

Oh, wait, that's a baboon. My bad.

BlackBolt

Re:Cool logo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232058)

What? You mean the one of the monkey hunched over jacking-off?

Re:Cool logo (1)

St. Vitus (26355) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232130)

The logo has always reminded me of DRI's thrasher logo (as seen best on the Thrash Zone [metalprovider.com] cover). So, yeah, I definitely think the project has an edge.

ximian gnome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4231768)

Whatever you do, DONT install ximian gnome on debian. I installed Ximian 1.4 on my debian box and it took a long time before I could get everything working properly again.

They have an office? (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231779)

Doesn't that cost money?

Writing style? (1, Insightful)

dukethug (319009) | more than 11 years ago | (#4231927)

Did anyone else find the writer's fawning, adjective-heavy style irritating, even for a Slashdot article?

linux is dying (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232185)

When die-hard linux developers defect to the dark side, it's a sign that that people are seeing through the hoax that linux is technically stable and robust when in fact, the vm is unstable under load, necessitating a complete rewrite, and the fs loses fs integrity on crashes, necessitating ext3fs. All along, linux has been a piece of junk. The truth is out there.

Evolution (2)

DaedalusLogic (449896) | more than 11 years ago | (#4232270)

I admire the hard work put into Evolution. I was in the process of moving all my contacts over into their PIM. Until... I had a large message to send out and the program was straining under the weight of not having , instead of ; between addresses in an e-mail to ~40 people. These folks were not on a regular distribution list and probably never will be. It made sense to send the message that way. It took minutes for the program to move through through the addresses so I could add another.

It's slick... I'll use it some day but it didn't impress this time around. I'll try it again in about 6 months.

Brazil Style (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232353)

I wonder where this guy experienced Brazil like that. No plumbing or air ductwork in sight from where i stand, in Brazil.

Ximian Connector (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232427)

Now if they'll just port Ximian Connector to OS X - imagine how many Windoze machines could be replaced in corporate. This is who Apple should be working with.

that's what people think and post to gnome's lists (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232446)

unfortunately written in german language but it's worth reading it Please Read This [gnome.org] . looks like gnome is too much under control of sun, redhat and ximian. their developers are nothing else than the puppets of these companies.

GNOME HIG soon on your KDE system (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232503)

i like the idea that the GNOME HIG (human interface guides) will soon affect KDE too. specially crap like the button re-ordering in gnome 2 which still disgusts me. luckely i am still using gnome 1 and hopefully will continue using it for the next couple of years. hey the xfree server is moving towards gnome now. it embedds 'gnome-xml, pkgconfig, fontconfig, xcoursor, xft2' ... soon in your xfree 4.3 :)

gnome-xml, pkgconfig == gnome people
fontconfig, xcoursor, xft2 == keith packard who's beloved desktop is gnome

what you don't belive me ? grab the CVS of it.

soon the kde people need to follow our ass :)

speaking out of the secret bag. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4232570)

the reason why evolution is not yet ported to gnome 2 is because ximian is planning to release the gnome 2 port of evolution using 'mono' and 'c#'.
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