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Java Development Environments for Macintosh?

Cliff posted more than 12 years ago | from the coffee-and-apples dept.

Java 114

spacecowboy420 asks: "My company (with my persuasion) has decided to move from a Windows platform to a Macintosh. The issue that is slowing this move is one of software solutions - more specifically a Jave IDE and Sales Contact Management software. We have been using JBuilder and Act!. Jbuilder is available for mac but is pricey, but the real rub is we need an IDE that supports the JClass Libraries (which Jbuilder does, but we would like to consider an alternative). Act! also doesn't have a mac version, so I am in new territory when it comes to mac contact solutions. What solutions have the Slashdot community found to be the best? What are the thoughts on Power Builder (although I know it doesn't support the JClass Libraries)?."

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Try Onyx (5, Informative)

mjpaci (33725) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298756)

Can't help you on the JBuilder aspect of your question, but I may be of help on the contact management/sales datatbase side.

There is a product we use that is web based and very robust called Onyx [onyx.com] .

--Mike

Re:Try Onyx (1)

BigBir3d (454486) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298803)

Another one (free no-less) is from Power on Software [poweronsoftware.com] . Can get it for OS X (soon a 10.2 update) and older 8.6+ users.

JBuilder expensive? (2)

uradu (10768) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298827)

And this from someone who migrated to the Mac? No offense, but switching FROM JBuilder is mostly a downgrade, it's considered one of the best Java IDEs if not THE best.

Uh, meant to reply to the parent. (2)

uradu (10768) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298848)

Sorry!

Re:Try Onyx (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4298853)

There is a CRM product called Daylite by MarketCircle, http://www.marketcircle.com, which is pretty sweet.

Re:Try Onyx (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4298868)

Or you might consider building your own solution with webobjects [apple.com] .

Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (1, Flamebait)

innerFire (1016) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298820)

These are questions you should have asked and answered before presenting anything to management.

The Mac ships with Java 1.3 but not yet 1.4 (afaik), and for that reason is not an ideal platform for Java development. Linux, Windows and Solaris are ideal platforms -- shouldn't you look at them first?

This is obviously just an ideology game on your part, and you aren't putting your company's business needs first. You should not be in charge of IT decisions.

I love Macs, too, but if you have to Ask Slashdot, you are not a professional.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4298890)

JDK 1.4 for osx is in developer seeds now. Jboss , Bea, and tomcat as well as several other non gui java applications run fine (sometimes better) in the 1.3 enviroment,and many you would not run in the using the 1.4 jdk in production enviroments quite yet.We deploy our apps on several platforms (linux, OSX , windows and solaris) and I find it a joy to program (using netbeans btw.) on OSX.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0, Redundant)

Directrix1 (157787) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299021)

I second this post. What are half the people that post stories on slashdot complete morons? Why would a business have to be 100% one type of system anyways. Give me a break. There is no reason for making it company policy to only use macs. Jeez, get real guy.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299523)

Right. That's why I work in a 100% Dell shop. Most of these decisions are made for the wrong reasons.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299615)

God is the only form of extraterrestrial life that we will ever be able to communicate with. SETI is a joke people.

They're both jokes. SETI is just less of a joke.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (2, Informative)

spacecowboy420 (450426) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299062)

We began development with 1.3, and would like to continue with 1.3 instead of changing to 1.4 in the middle of the development cycle. Our reasoning for migration is one based on avoidance of the draconian EULA of Microsoft and their policy of forced obselescence. We also need to have a platform that is good for the sales staff as well as the engineers - this seems to make the MAC an obvious choice. I would prefer a *nix alternative, but prefer to avoid the hand holding overhead. As far as asking slashdot, I am asking about experiences with software instead of installing, trying them out, then moving on to the next - it seems to me a professional works smarter not harder - which is what I am attempting here.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299254)

you prefer a Unix alternative? OS X is Unix. don't see what you're bitching about.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (1)

innerFire (1016) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299320)

We began development with 1.3, and would like to continue with 1.3 instead of changing to 1.4 in the middle of the development cycle.

But you can change platforms in the middle of the development cycle? And what about the future? When is the Mac going to get 1.4? Probably soon, but then, it's already out on Linux, Solaris and Windows.

Our reasoning for migration is one based on avoidance of the draconian EULA of Microsoft and their policy of forced obselescence.

But you've already bought the software (not to mention hardware) you need to make your developers productive. A change is just going to mess up your schedule and budget.

As I figured, this is all an ego/ideology move on your part. If you cared about the business, you'd use the right tool for the job -- in this case, the tools you already have, have paid for, and which work.

We also need to have a platform that is good for the sales staff as well as the engineers

Why must people in different departments use the same system?

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (5, Insightful)

BitGeek (19506) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299376)



The only ego here is yours.

Apple's VM tracks sun fairly closely... but they also have a lot of optimization that they do beyond what sun ships. Thus, Apple's releases will not coincide with Suns. And this is a Good Thing.

Its not like not using 1.4 is bad-- 1.4 is a minor update, and anyone developing java software right now really should not be requiring 1.4.

Furthermore, Apples 1.4 will likely be out soon, and will likely, once again, be the best VM on the market.

You should be happy he's leaving windows, rather than let your ego flame him for choosing mac.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299900)

You should be happy he's leaving windows, rather than let your ego flame him for choosing mac.

Except that he is a paid Microsoft shill sent here by his dark overlord to discourage "switchers" to either Mac OR Linux, and to protect the status quo dinosaur that is the Windows Monopoly.

I disagree (2)

conan_albrecht (446296) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301593)

I use a Powerbook and love OS X. However, I have to disagree that Apple's VM is the best one out there. I *will* heartily agree that it has the very best integration with the OS. The modified Swing looks awesome and uses regular Cocoa-type controls.

However, I do a lot of development of server-side stuff and benchmark most of them on my 800MHz/1GB RAM Powerbook against my Linux PIII-500, and the PIII is at least 4 times faster for any program (and usually quite a bit more than that). Exact same bytecode, compiled and written on the Powerbook. Executes many times faster on Blackdown's JVM.

Perhaps it's just the processors, but you'd think my G4 would be faster than my PIII.

Re:I disagree (1)

Zaaf (190878) | more than 11 years ago | (#4302500)

Perhaps it's just the processors, but you'd think my G4 would be faster than my PIII

A collegue of mine has a TiBook G4 500MHz, with 1MB level 2 cache. My TiBook 667MHz has just 256MB level 2 cache and believe me, all java programs are much faster on his machine then on mine. Where my machine is slower than my PIII 600Mhz, his is faster, all with the same class-files.
So it might just be the processor.

Re:I disagree (2)

BitGeek (19506) | more than 11 years ago | (#4303322)


I remain unconvinced. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't really meet the standard of a scientific controlled comparison.

Its possible that IBM's VM is a bit faster than the Macs, but Suns is mostly a reference VM and the others aren't that great in my experience.

Apple's VM is very, very good, but more importantly, if it hasn't caught up with IBM yet, they are well on their way to possibly passing IBM and certainly giving them a run for the money.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299589)

"As I figured, this is all an ego/ideology move on your part. If you cared about the business, you'd use the right tool for the job -- in this case, the tools you already have, have paid for, and which work."

Crap, in my years working, many purchase decisions get made by some guy who wants to slap some software tool on his resume or he loves some kind of computer he wants the company to pay for.

I remember one guy who made the company go all Dell because it "would reduce costs". When he found out that the advertising depts still use Macs, he threw a fit and tried to get rid of them too.

His "cost cutting" was really a case of "I'm too stupid and lazy to support more than one kind of computer."

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (2, Funny)

Alan Partridge (516639) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299692)

"His "cost cutting" was really a case of "I'm too stupid and lazy to support more than one kind of computer.""

do you KNOW my admin?

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4300378)

i am your admin.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4300331)

Maybe everyone should stop crying about the reasons for them to switch to macs, because its irrelevant. He just wants to know what software people working on the OS X platform recommend. All this ego/ideology b.s. is pointless.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (5, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300579)

The Mac ships with Java 1.3 but not yet 1.4 (afaik), and for that reason is not an ideal platform for Java development. Linux, Windows and Solaris are ideal platforms -- shouldn't you look at them first?

This is obviously just an ideology game on your part, and you aren't putting your company's business needs first. You should not be in charge of IT decisions.
He doesn't say what else his business does, or what other reasons they may have for moving to Macs. It's entirely possible that Macs suit their business better than any other platform in most ways, and that this problem is one of the few downsides.
I love Macs, too, but if you have to Ask Slashdot, you are not a professional.
[yawn] I'm really sick of people ripping on Ask Slashdot. Here's a clue: if you think the people who post questions to Ask Slashdot are idiots, don't read it. I goddamn well am a professional, and you're full of shit if you think otherwise -- and while A.S. is far from the only resource I use when I have tricky questions, or even the first, it has in the past provided me with a whole lot of immensely valuable information. One of the things I like best about IT is having a wide network of knowledgeable peers who are generally very willing to share the benefits of their experience. Attitudes like yours do nothing but harm to the field as a whole.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (1)

tokki (604363) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301022)

I love Macs, too, but if you have to Ask Slashdot, you are not a professional.

The best and quickest way never to grow or to never learn is to never ask questions. Too many times geeks are too afraid to ask questions, as it is viewed at as a sign of weakness. Sometimes other geek jump on that sign of weakness because of their own insecurities and get a quick (but fleeting and overall negative) boost to their own fragile self-esteem. I've seen many an insecure I-can't-believe-you-didn't-know-it-already geek over the years, and they never grow as people or as professionals. It's the people they try to intimidate, the people who try to make them feel small, that grow and quickly surpass them.

It's as simple as ignorance versus enlightment.

Thus, he is a professional for asking his peers and daring to ask a question in general, where you are not a professional for chiding his inquery.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (1)

darcybrown (597894) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301239)

I got a question, why the hell does this post have a score of 4? It does nothing to answer the question asked but mention that Apple ships with Java 1.3.

Where was it in the question where it was asked "Given the hypothesis of my business that you can pull out of your ass, how do you think I run IT?"

Many people, like myself, read these articles to get tips from people and to try to learn more from our oh-so-fucking-smart geeks who know everything, even how to judge whether or not someone is making a bad business decision based of his surmized ideology. Teach me that one oh master, cause I know there are plenty of people who could benefit from knowing how to do that.

Not to make this too long of a rant, but I have been here twice now, looking to see what answers people posted, so that I too might investigate other IDEs, in that time, this dumbass post has been moded up, and other more informational posts aren't.

Why is Ask Slashdot here? If only to mod up " ...if you have to Ask Slashdot, you are not a professional."

Let's lay off the picking on people, and boost up the actual information.

if you have to Ask SD you are not a professional. (1)

scrud (610354) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301247)

You are an idiot. What you should say is - I'm from IT and know everything.I give answers. I NEVER need to ask questions. You sir are what is wrong with IT.

Re:Shouldn't you have thought of this first? (2)

noz (253073) | more than 11 years ago | (#4302408)

Something tells me he didn't:
  1. Ask his boss if he could please have 10 new PowerMacs,
  2. Throw out all the companies PCs,
  3. Sit at his desk staring at the wall with the rest of the development team until they arrived, and then
  4. Discover their old software wasn't portable.
I think he has approval for the hardware changeover proposal, and now is starting to gather more information.

IDE = IntelliJ, CRM = salesforce.com (2, Informative)

shodson (179450) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298897)

The best Java IDE of any OS is supported on OS X: IntelliJ. Check out their FAQ [intellij.com] about OS X support.

Try using salesforce.com [salesforce.com] , a web-based ASP of CRM software, costs about $60 per user/mo though but they host and operate the software and data for you, so you can access it from any browser wherever you are!

Re:IDE = IntelliJ, CRM = salesforce.com (1)

adamy (78406) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299040)

I have not OSX experience, but I love Intellij. Highly recommend it.

Re:IDE = IntelliJ, CRM = salesforce.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299133)

Absolutely IntelliJ. Best IDE i've ever used. Version 2.6 is fantastic, and the 3.0 early access (www.intellij.net/eap) is even better. Slight issue with it is java on the mac isn't the speediest out there. Also the early access only runs on jdk 1.4. But the final version of 3.0 will support 1.3.

Re:IDE = IntelliJ, CRM = salesforce.com (1)

diparfitt (219811) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299441)

The IDE seemed a little pokey on OSX... Maybe it's gotten better in 10.2?

IntelliJ is the best - I wouldn't use anything else (xcept for maybe vim)

Re:IDE = IntelliJ, CRM = salesforce.com (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4301896)

IDEA from IntelliJ is an excellent product. I used to run JBuilder on OS X, but switched because IDEA is so much faster. It doesn't feature as many bells and whistles as JBuilder, but I never use those anyway.

IDEA also has excellent ANT integration.

I've found it to run well on Macs with at least 512MB of memory. However, when on the road I occasionally use it on my 600 MHz iBook with 384MB of RAM. While noticeably slower than on my G4, it still is fairly acceptable for those times when I need to use it on the road.

netbeans... (3, Informative)

jeffy124 (453342) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298915)

try a look at NetBeans [netbeans.org] . Opensource'd under the Sun Public License, cross platform IDE that's written in Java and works quite well. Works for 1.3 or better.

Re:netbeans... (2, Informative)

Zaaf (190878) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299773)

Well I have to agree to that. At work we use both Windows nt4 machines and TiBooks. We have a local cvs server on the windows network. And it's completely transparent to checkout netbeans' .java and .form file on both machine types. Or, to go with the apple motto: It just works.

The new release of netbeans (3.4) can autofill any code from any .jar file or directory. So, although I must confess that I do not know anything about JClass, I presume that this is a Useful Feature to you.
Beans can be treated as components and added to the component toolbar, from which they can be dropped onto your form.

HTH

Why is JBuilder Pricey? (5, Insightful)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298947)

Because it doesn't have any real competition.

Think about this. You're spending thousands to license JClass. Apparently you're doing some heavy-duty enterprise applications, so you're spending tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands on hardware, bandwidth, etc. Plus you're spending similar amounts on programmer time.

Yet now you want to skimp on the one tool you use to tie all these expensive pieces together. At most this will save you $3K per programmer. Probably a lot less. If using a less effective tool delays your project just one week, you do not come out ahead. Does this strategy make sense?

Re:Why is JBuilder Pricey? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#4305312)

Does it make sence to work from a platform with dubious etics? It's good PR to move from the encumbered platform.

The Ultimate Team Organization Software (1)

aoteoroa (596031) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298956)

TUTOS [tutos.org] might be a good contact manager for your sales team, and project planner for the programmers. It is a web-app (PHP-MySQL) so it will immediatly solve any cross platform issues. (Do you all use mac's) Plus when your sales guys are on the road they can access info over the web, and if you have progammers who work from home then they can use it to update a projects status and submit billable hours.

I understand that JBuilder can be expensive for a small company but it is worth the money. I use a mac here at work, but have a linux, and windows machine at home. JBuilder works on all three platforms.

XEmacs of course (1)

voisine (153062) | more than 12 years ago | (#4298991)

Use XEmacs with the JDE module.
Best Java IDE I've ever used.

XEmacs? Forms (2)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299022)

How is EMACS at form design?

yes (2)

johnjones (14274) | more than 11 years ago | (#4304955)

of course

littlefinger aches

regards

John Jones

Um, this isn't that hard of a question (2, Informative)

DiscoOnTheSide (544139) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299035)

It's called "Project Builder" it has complete support for java. It's also free and comes on the Developer Tools CD for Mac OS X. It has support for CVS and other niftyy things I'd imagine you'd use. Check it out.

Re:Um, this isn't that hard of a question (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299128)

Um, project builder is a glorified text editor. It's a great one at that, but it doesn't do all the fancy write-my-classes-for-me stuff that a good java ide can do, like JBuilder or (it's other problems notwithstanding) forte.

Re:Um, this isn't that hard of a question (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#4320616)

Um... Last I checked, I was able to get Interface Builder to build interfaces for me, and use project builder to manage projects.

Re:Um, this isn't that hard of a question (1)

mh_cryptonomicon (608940) | about 12 years ago | (#4320630)

And then use WebObjects to do web-interface things... WebObjects + New Apple rackmount == sweet.

A vote for ProjectBuilder (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299134)

Personally, I really like ProjectBuilder for java development. PB is developed by Apple and comes free on the Dev Tools CD with Jaguar. It's primarily used for Cocoa/Carbon/Kernel projects, but also fully supports Java, and does a damn good job of it, IMO. On Windows, I use CodeWarrior for Java development. I like it, but after years of using CodeWarrior, I became a PB convert almost overnight. And Apple runs a PB interest list that the PB developers actually read and respond to on a very regular basis.

In the interest of full-disclosure, I should mention that PB doesn't have all the whiz-bang features of other Java-specific IDE's, like RAD GUI development, and the like. At least not that I'm aware of. But, personally, I've never had much use for stuff like that anyway. So, I haven't investigated what, if any, "extras" like this PB has for Java development.

My only real complaint is not with PB itself, but with Apple's slow uptake on new JVM's. I love the way java is just part of the OS. But, I hate how long it takes Apple to catch up to the latest version of the JVM. They've said that this will change. And I know that 1.4 is currently in beta. But still, 1.4 has been out for Windoze/Linux for ages. And 1.4.1 is now available (which has a slightly different class file format, and fixes some memory management issues in 1.4.0). So, when Apple does finally release 1.4, is it going to be 1.4.0 or 1.4.1? I don't know. But I sure hope they can get things more in sync than they are now.

Re:A vote for ProjectBuilder (1)

Montreal (594947) | more than 11 years ago | (#4303294)

Apple currently provides a prerelease copy of "1.4" (i.e. 1.4.0) to "seeded" members of their developer community. If you haven't paid the $500 it costs to join, there's nothing available yet and no dates have been announced. Yes, it's a pain. (See the FAQ [apple.com] for more details.)

On the positive side, they are apparently doing a long of rearchitecting of their Swing classes (?) to make future development a lot easier, so JDKs 1.5+ shouldn't lag the rest of the world by anything like the same amoung of time.

IDE's are for wimps (1, Troll)

bwt (68845) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299154)

IDE's are for wimps: Use JEdit [jedit.org] -- it's a free text editor with some very powerful plugins for java.

Java is for wimps (1, Flamebait)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299458)

Real programmers don't use Java. They don't even use high-level languages!

Re:Java is for wimps (2)

bwt (68845) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299623)


That is so passe. Good luck with your device driver. Is it portable?

Re:Java is for wimps (3, Funny)

quintessent (197518) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300129)

Real programmers don't even use computers. They write everything as operations on a Turing Machine language, and then run the operations with a paper and pencil.

Re:IDE's are for wimps (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299852)

Have you tried 4.0 on OS X yet? It is a real dog for me compared to 3.2.

Re:IDE's are for wimps (2)

MaggieL (10193) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301369)

jEdit does indeed rock hard. And for minimalists such as myself, BlueJ (http://www.bluej.org) is a damn fine IDE. I tend to use both...depending on what I'm up to at a particular time. BlueJ uses the JVM debugging interface, very nice tool.

Re:IDE's are for wimps (0, Offtopic)

bwt (68845) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301944)


WTF?! Somebody actually modded me down as troll after I suggested using a GPL'd text editor to actualy "write" code instead of a proprietary IDE. What is Slashdot coming to?

Boo hiss to the moderator.

Eclipse (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299172)

Eclipse is a very nice Java IDE. I think it is much much better than ProjectBuilder, mainly because the latter lacks code-completion. Eclipse works great with CVS, unit-tests, debugger, you name it.

Furthermore it is:
- 100% Free
- 100% Open Source

Although there are no builds available for macosX I know it can be done, a colleague of mine had it running on his ibook a few months ago.

Re:Eclipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4300733)

try this in project builder you will see autocompletion exists.

int blah;

bl[press escape]

Eclipse on OS X status? (2)

melquiades (314628) | more than 12 years ago | (#4302151)

Although there are no builds available for macosX I know it can be done, a colleague of mine had it running on his ibook a few months ago.

I've heard several rumors about Eclipse running on OS X, but indeed, there seem not to be any builds of it generally available. I know that the major obstacle is porting SWT, and I know that the effort was supposedly going pretty well.

What's the current status of Eclipse on OS X? If it works, why aren't there any binaries out there? What gives?

Eclipse is pretty nice. I'd love to be able to use it.

Re:Eclipse on OS X status? (2)

Wesley Felter (138342) | about 12 years ago | (#4316097)

I never understood why nobody provided binaries either. I tried Eclipse back in the build-it-yoruself days and it worked fine on OS X.

Re:Eclipse (1)

mrrivers (610576) | about 12 years ago | (#4306555)

Actually Project Builder does feature code-completion although it's not very comfortable. To activate it use F5 or in case you installed the Completion Dictionary Plugin from Objective Development use Esc.

MrRivers

Re:Eclipse (2)

AIXadmin (10544) | about 12 years ago | (#4320603)

There is now a port of Eclipse to Mac OS X written in Carbon. You can find it on the front page of the eclipse web site at http://www.eclipse.org

Try Eclipse (1)

Arthur Dent (76567) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299335)

Have you taken a look at Eclipse?

Eclipse is a great IDE. We have been using it in a large development project for close to a year now.

Eclipse has very good integration with CVS, has one of the best diff tools I have seen in an IDE, supports code hot plug in the debugger (you can change code while stopped at a breakpoint in the debugger, and when you save your changes, Eclipse will compile and use the newly written code) with JDK 1.4, has TomCat integration and a thriving community of plugin developers [eclipse.org] .

The only problem is, the MAC port is a work in progress, and is slated for release real soon now. Take a look at it here [eclipse.org] .

Learn VIM or Emacs (2, Interesting)

GusherJizmac (80976) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299361)

Learn vim [vim.org] or emacs. Preferrably vim. Knowing a powerful open-source text editor available on all platforms will be way more valuable than any special-sauce JBuilder or equivalent.

emacs has been around for years and years and is very robust and powerful.

vim (based on vi, which has been around for years and years) has been around for a really long time and is extremely powerful.

Both are far more powerful development environments than ANY IDE or any editor (sorry JEdit) and can interoperate with ANY SYSTEM YOU CAN THINK OF.

Learn them now!

(Oh yeah, use ant or make for building your system. Preferably make, but ant is easier when are you just starting and is more cross-platform)

Re:Learn VIM or Emacs (3, Insightful)

bwt (68845) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299556)

Both are far more powerful development environments than ANY IDE or any editor (sorry JEdit) and can interoperate with ANY SYSTEM YOU CAN THINK OF.

People say this kind of thing all the time. I use vi when all I have is a shell, but I do not understand why you would call them a "more powerful development" environment that something like JEdit or an IDE. How do you justify this statement?

Re:Learn VIM or Emacs (2)

GusherJizmac (80976) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300212)

Vim has all the features of any IDE: you can compile code and jump to the errors, you can get help from within the file, you can get syntax highlighting, you can get code completion, you can browse directories from within the editor, and the editor is far, far, far more powerful and configurable than any editor in any IDE. Plus, it works with ANY language and you do not have to wait for the vendor to allow you to do something or work with something, since it's almost infinitly configurable (and the source is available), you can do whatever you want. It presents absolutely no barriers to your development, other than your deisre to learn the tool and to use it. If you really like clicking buttons and menus, it has a GUI mode available on all platforms (except DOS :) that allows full customization of any menus.

I justify it by pointing you to the vim website and accompanying documentation. Note that vim != vi.

The same can all be said about emacs, though I don't use emacs, so I can't say for sure.

Re:Learn VIM or Emacs (2)

TheAJofOZ (215260) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301093)

Vim has all the features of any IDE: you can compile code and jump to the errors, you can get help from within the file, you can get syntax highlighting, you can get code completion, you can browse directories from within the editor

Woah, woah.... Code completion??? Is there a HOWTO for that and does it support your own custom classes as well as the JRE classes?

And how do I compile code (preferably by running ant)?

Sheesh, I've been using vim for years and never stubled across those features.....

Re:Learn VIM or Emacs (2)

Sentry21 (8183) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301489)

Presumably, the claim comes about because anyone could script IDE features into Vim or EMACS. That would be stupid, and a waste of time, but I think that's their logic.

--Dan

Re:Learn VIM or Emacs (2)

ianezz (31449) | more than 12 years ago | (#4302252)

...the claim comes about because anyone could script IDE features...

It has already been done, at least for Emacs. Have a look at the OO-Browser [sourceforge.net] and JDEE [sunsite.dk] , plus all that comes with GNU Emacs like:

Plus, creating your own elisp code to do whatever you want (not just silly keyboard macros) is quite simple, and there are already tons of useful snippets and code examples out there [google.com] . This can hardly be said for other editors, except for Vim and JEdit (which I personally consider on par with Emacs, except it requires more resources to run).

I can't speak for Vim, since I use it just occasionally, but I'm confident that it provides equivalent functionalities.

C'mon. IDE's are important for productivity. (2, Insightful)

Paradox (13555) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299714)

Emacs and VI are quite powerful, both offer a rich variety of features. However, while they are suitable for IDE's they are not really ideal in this area without a lot of customization, tinkering, knoweldge of eLisp, and time.

Time isn't cheap. Time is expensive and precious. It's the one resource you or I can't replenish. I'd rather use an expensive IDE that saves me time rather than a potentially better editor that requires weeks to learn (yes, I already know them both quite well, but that's because I've used them for about 4 years now).

This is the reason I use Apple's IDE. It's easy to set up, it's very professional, has a nice debugging feature and class browser, and gives you lots of useful feedback. Sure, I can't program an MP3 encoder in LISP and have it run from my text editor, and sure, I might have to use the mouse periodically with it. So what? It saves time compared to the slow process of getting emacs set up just the way I like it or setting up a series of scripts to automate tasks I'd run from VI.

Interoperability isn't really an excuse. Source is saved as ascii text. The only area you could possibly have trouble is line breaks. They're all interoperable.

In a real dev environment, time saving dev tools such as an IDE are essential.

Re:C'mon. IDE's are important for productivity. (2)

GusherJizmac (80976) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300266)

Emacs and VI are quite powerful, both offer a rich variety of features. However, while they are suitable for IDE's they are not really ideal in this area without a lot of customization, tinkering, knoweldge of eLisp, and time.

IDEs require lots of configuration as well. No project works exactly as the IDE vendor tells you. IDEs also lock you into working the way the vendor wants you to work. The fact that they are integrated may save you some setup time, but you are going to be less productive, especially the second you hit something that your IDE decided not to allow you to do.

Time isn't cheap. Time is expensive and precious. It's the one resource you or I can't replenish. I'd rather use an expensive IDE that saves me time rather than a potentially better editor that requires weeks to learn (yes, I already know them both quite well, but that's because I've used them for about 4 years now).

You spend most of your time coding typing in an editor. Your productivity is increased if you have an editor that lets you work the way you want to. It's a fallacy that an IDE automatically increases productivity. Every project I've seen them used on cause decreases in productivity.

Interoperability isn't really an excuse. Source is saved as ascii text. The only area you could possibly have trouble is line breaks. They're all interoperable.

What I mean is that the editor can interoperate with any other external program. Using make? vi and emacs will work. Using ant? they work. Using proprietary scripts because your project requires it and there's no other choice? vi and emacs work.

In terms of your percieved waste of time in setting up the editors, it's something you do once in your life for the vast majority of configuration needed. Setting it up for project-specific is not very time-consuming, and quite simple once you know the tool.

In a real dev environment, time saving dev tools such as an IDE are essential.

Not in my experience. And, anyway, an engineer that knows either VI or emacs really well can hit the ground running in almost any situation, which all the slaves to IDE-of-the-month are struggling to find out why hitting F5 doesn't compile their code. The arguments for open source and open standards in software apply to development tools. You are doing yourself a favor by using open, standard, easily understand and easily/widely available developer tools. When I bought a Mac, and wanted to do Java development on it, I had to just copy my .vimrc over to my home directory and I was ready to go. This guy is still looking for some JBuilder alternative, when he could be getting the job done.

Re:Learn VIM or Emacs (2)

Samrobb (12731) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300221)

Take a look at any Java-aware text editor: InteliJ, Eclipse's integrated text editor, etc. Because they are understand exactly which language they are being used with, and it happens to be a language with some pretty damn good introspecion interfaces, these editors have features - code refactoring, context-sensitive search and replace, inheritance/implementation skeletons, runtime code completion, and more - than emacs and vi can't even come close to matching.

I prefer a language-friendly (not just capable) editor when working on Java or C++.

I prefer a language-neutral editor (vi) when working on multiple types of text files.

How hard is it to understand that?

And, just in case you try to extend this into a steaming pile of GUI editor vs. non-GUI editor garbage: if all I had was a console, and if I were working on Java, you can bet your bootstraps I would be using vi only for the time it took me to find a decent console version of a Java-aware editor.

Contact Solution (2)

medcalf (68293) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299372)

I suggest either Palm Desktop (really - it has a good contact manager), Now Contact or Jaguar's Address Book. Depends on what you need, though, and none of these is an exact analogue of Act!

I'm not familiar enough with Java development on the Mac to make recommendations. Pity that the RTFM idiots have now taken to trolling in Ask Slashdot, or you might have gotten better answers on that.

Forte / SunOne Studio (2, Informative)

wessto (469499) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299407)

Re:Forte / SunOne Studio (1)

wessto (469499) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299422)

Sorry, I'm an idiot. Link should be netbeans [netbeans.org] without the other stuff. Cheers.

Act! for mac (1)

brant_kelly (117591) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299412)

Now and up to Date [nowsoftware.com] by Power on Software comes from the Act! mac port. When Act dropped it, Power on picked it up and it now runs on OS X. I've used it for a while now, and was able to import some stuff from an Act! user.

Re:Act! for mac (1)

lemkebeth (568887) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301271)

Nope.

Power On Bought Now Software which was failing at the time and that is where Now Contact & Up-to-Date came from.

Power One made a generous offer to ACT! holdouts when Symantec dropped support (they hadn't updated it in years before dropping support)

FWIW, Symantec has a long history of buying companies just to kill a product (MacTools, etc.)

IntelliJ IDEA (2, Informative)

PierceLabs (549351) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299505)

This is the best IDE around for a reasonable amount of money. You can get to it at http://www.intellij.com. I used to use Eclipse on the Windows platform before switching to this because it works everywhere - it supports refactoring, and its fast ... damn fast. The moment I saw it refactor a filename all the way into CVS and fix other files in CVS that imported it, I knew I'd found the right product for me.

Out of curiosity... (1)

bgalbs (237848) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299705)

...why are you switching to the Mac?

Re:Out of curiosity... (2)

MoneyT (548795) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300306)

Probably to avoid being associated with users who ask such dumb questions...

Re:Out of curiosity... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4301288)

MOD Parent up!

the IDE issue. (5, Informative)

GOD_ALMIGHTY (17678) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299724)

I don't know anything about Act! or how you were planning on using it with or without Java. I also can't really comment on a CRM system for Mac.

As far as JClass and an IDE go. Take your pick. I personally prefer Intellij's IDEA. You could use VIM, WebSphere Studio or NetBeans if you want. The JClass stuff is pure JavaBeans, which means you get to do drag and drop programming in any IDE's GUI builder.

Since neither IntelliJ or VIM have GUI designer's it looks like you prolly want NetBeans or JBuilder.(IntelliJ's beta releases also require JDK 1.4, so that may not work on Mac for a while.)
I personally don't like the way NetBeans works, but if your looking for a cheap solution that will allow you to use JClass in a GUI designer it's the way to go.

Quite frankly, you don't sound incredibly knowledgable about developing Java solutions. Don't take that as an insult, just an observation since you left out a lot of information pertinent to your question. Do some more research using Google next time. Most of your questions can be answered if you better understand your problem.

You can use JClass in anything you want. Import the Jar's, make sure they're on the classpath, then write the code by hand that accesses the classes and methods in your own code. The fact that they're JavaBeans allows the GUI designer to automagically load up the properties and provide you with a visual way of laying out the components and hooking them up together. Read more about JavaBeans if your interested in this. You should be writing your own JavaBeans to speed your internal development. BTW, XDoclet now supports JavaBeans, so you can generate all the extraneous classes required by IDE's from the actual Beans source code. It's pretty slick.

Stay away from Powerbuilder. I'm currently developing a J2EE solution in a Powerbuilder shop. It's a nice self-contained environment, but it doesn't integrate well with others. I have no personal experience try to do this, but the other developers on this project have been writing Powerbuilder apps around here for the past 8 years. If you don't think you'll ever have to integrate your powerbuilder apps with anything else, it's a fast and easy solution. It's also pretty powerful for data entry and reporting. Just keep in mind that after 8 years of Powerbuilder, these guys chose J2EE.

Good Luck

Re:the IDE issue. (1)

punkass (70637) | about 12 years ago | (#4312673)

If you search around, you'll be able to find eap releases that only require 1.3.1. The last build to do this (I believe) was Build 629. I saw it just the other day...it should be in there...

CodeGuide (2, Insightful)

Jammerlappen (143666) | more than 12 years ago | (#4299779)

Look at CodeGuide from OmniCore [omnicore.com] . Nice IDE, nice MacOS X integration. We've been using it for six months now.

Dear Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299792)

Dear Apple,

I am a homosexual. I bought an Apple computer because of its well earned reputation for being "the" gay computer. Since I have become an Apple owner, I have been exposed to a whole new world of gay friends. It is really a pleasure to meet and compute with other homos such as myself. I plan on using my new Apple computer as a way to entice and recruit young schoolboys into the homosexual lifestyle; it would be so helpful if you could produce more software which would appeal to young boys. Thanks in advance.

with much gayness,

Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day, S.J.

Cease and desist (2, Funny)

MoneyT (548795) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300373)

Dear Father Randy,

It has come to our attention here at Microsoft, that you have recently purchased a Macintosh. This explicitly violates the "No other vendors because I like the way Microsoft bites by balls" contract which you signed when you first became a Bill Gates Male Groupie. We must ask you to cease all contacts with Apple and related machines, or we will be forced to cut back on your supply of custom Soiled Bill Gates Boxers. Further violations will cause you to loose all access privlages to the BOHICA box.

Signed
Microsoft Corporate Sex Toy #1265

[note to moderators: I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but sometimes you just gotta]

Java development environments on Macintosh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4299888)

For better answers you should post your question on MacSlash

Use CodeWarrior (2, Informative)

kuwan (443684) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300091)

If you want to use a program that lives and breathes Mac, then you should use CodeWarrior by Metrowerks. It's quite a bit cheaper than JBuilder and also features C/C++ and ObjectiveC compilers along with Java. Most Mac applications have been written in CodeWarrior and it has been the defacto standart development environment on the Mac since forever. I've been using it for 6 years for everything I ever do. It have Java RAD tools (though I think JBuilders are better) that are OK and get the job done. It also has code completion that includes a JavaDoc explanation of each method/class that are available, something that I JBuilder doesn't have. CodeWarrior is also a native Mac application (as opposed to Java) so it's quite a bit faster than pure Java IDEs.

I use both JBuilder and CodeWarrior at work (JBuilder for laying out the GUI and CodeWarrior for everything else) and I spend 90% of my time in CodeWarrior. I think it's just much more polished than anything else.

As far as a JClass alternative, try out PopChart [corda.com] by CORDA Technologies. [corda.com]

The IDE's of Mac (4, Informative)

wazzzup (172351) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300154)

Check out the O'Reilly Network here:

http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/04/16 /o sx_java.html

It's a quick overview of the Java IDE's available for OS X, namely IntelliJ's IDEA, Borland's JBuilder, Apple's Project Builder, the open source NetBeans/Sun's Forte, Eclipse from OTI and Jedit. The article was written in April so it may not be entirely current as to what's available but it should get you going.

Java IDE for Mac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4300239)

Codewarrior is the best IDE I have used every anywhere. It supports Java as well as older languages. It runs on Windows and Solaris as well as Mac. It originated on Mac and runs "best" there, though I've personally been using it equally well on both Mac and Win to develop java apps professionally for the last 5 years. It's worth every penny.

Not sure exactly what you mean when you say you want your IDE to support a specific class library. I've used lots of 3rd party class libraries with CodeWarrior but don't know of anything "special" it does regarding any of them.

There may be a free trial version at www.metrowerks.com.

-- Jeff Rogers
jeff@jeffrogers.net

TogetherSoft (2, Informative)

DoenerMord (21821) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300313)

http://www.togethersoft.com/ [togethersoft.com]

TogetherSoft has a Mac OS X version of their Control Center product. I believe there's a free trial if you wanna check it out. Developers here are using it now for Java work, albeit on Windows and Linux.

Re:TogetherSoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4300362)

There just is not a lot of Java development environments that are made as well as Together. I have been using it for the past 2 years and it's excellent. The only downside is that the flagship product, Control Center, is expensive. They do, however, offer Together Solo with the most advanced features disabled for substantially less.

some actual help (as opposed to bitching) (2, Informative)

wilseven (610336) | more than 12 years ago | (#4300729)

this product called daylight looks kinda cool... http://www.marketcircle.com/daylite/index.html also saw this when I was trying to find their site: http://osx.hyperjeff.net/Apps/Business.html good luck.

Re:some actual help (as opposed to bitching) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4304180)

Daytight is a very cool app!

Net beans (2, Informative)

gumbi west (610122) | more than 12 years ago | (#4301265)

I use NetBeans [netbeans.org] and it works great. They claim OS X is ready to run it on their site.

Isn't JBuilder a Java App? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4301376)

I thought JBuilder was a 100% Java App. So shouldn't you be able to run your current copy of JBuilder (presumably you got it for Windows) on OS X without having to purchase a "Mac OS X" version?

Daylite by MarketCircle, the Kick-Butt Cocoa CRM! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#4302049)

It's simple the best, and comes in both single-user and networked versions.

Check it out!

http://www.marketcircle.com/

The agony of JBuilder (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4302360)

JBuilder is wonderful on Mac OS X, but Borland's licensing and support terms just suck methane -- $2999 for a new Enterprise license, but then it's $1899 a year to keep it updated. No significant volume discounts, and their tech support is next to worthless in our experience. Their free support option is a newsgroup staffed by "TeamB," which seems to be comprised of volunteer pre-teens who probably know a lot more about PlayStation 2 than they do about Borland products. Seriously, go read the newsgroup yourself sometime. It's pitiful. We've got a bunch of JBuilder licenses but we stopped upgrading them because the list of new features was so impressively weak for close to $2K.

I have friends who rave about IntelliJ IDEA [intellij.com] , and there are lots of other options, like Together ControlCenter [togethersoft.com] .

Anything written in Java will probably run on OS X, even if it doesn't say it on the box.

Have you tried using the developer tools that come with Mac OS X? ProjectBuilder is a decent Java IDE (though I miss JBuilder's Code Insight feature in a major way when using PB).

Jave [sic] IDE and Sales Contact Management (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 12 years ago | (#4309342)

For sales contact/CRM on OS X, check out Marketcircle's Cocoa-based Daylite:

http://www.marketcircle.com/daylite/index.html

Try Eclipse? (1)

jdschult (610980) | about 12 years ago | (#4316883)

Eclipse.org [eclipse.org] is now making the Mac build of their outstanding Java IDE available on their download [64.38.198.171] page. This version is using a native carbonized version of the SWT [eclipse.org] All 2.1 stream drops after September 18th include a Mac build.

JDK 1.4 (1)

PenguinLord (555013) | about 12 years ago | (#4318452)

In a slightly off but related topic. Does anyone know the status of the 1.4 jdk? I know they had a Jaguar only beta out a while ago but it seems to have dissappeared. OS X has pretty good support for the 1.3.1 jdk, but Apple seems surprisingly behind on 1.4.
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