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More on the KDE League

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the pushing-the-needle-too-far dept.

KDE 108

An anonymous reader writes "Timothy Butler published a nice clean-up on the misinformations that were published by dep on Linux and Main. Most of what that has been alleged by Linux and Main turns out to be wrong. Especially, the KDE League has no obligation to disclose financial information. On dot.kde.org, Mathias Kalle Dallheimer, KDE e.V. president, explains that the KDE e.V would authorize the KDE League to disclose its books to the KDE e.V members. However, the KDE e.V is not the only member of the KDE League. Other members would have to approve this."

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108 comments

hi there (-1)

SweetAndSourJesus (555410) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424523)

I'm on slashdot!

Go me!

I love you for 20 seconds!

Isn't it time to bring in ... (0, Offtopic)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424543)

The Justice League?

Who are the other members of the KDE league (1, Interesting)

as400as2 (560825) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424560)

and what is there position on the issue?

Re:Who are the other members of the KDE league (3, Informative)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425372)

Is it so difficult to look at their site for the member list [kdeleague.org] ?

good job (5, Interesting)

Karma Sucks (127136) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424568)

I am glad that these misinformations are not allowed to persist. It's tragic when someone else sets out on a PR war crusade against an Open Source project with the only goal of causing damage and mistrust.

Thank you Tim, Kalle and Slashdot for your efforts to combat this.

Re:good job (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424752)

Subtle - I like it. :-)

Here we go.. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424593)



Corruption in multi-billion dollar corporations. CEO's going down faster than a hooker on ephedrine.

Now, here comes the OPEN SOURCE book keeping. Does this mean we'll get to see the live, play-by-play webcasted extortion, with the source code to match?

god, getting people busted pwns.

First KDE Sucks Post! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424602)

Just kidding. KDE is pretty nice. :)

Rather troubling... (5, Insightful)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424658)

This isn't the first time I've seen a segment of the Open Source/Free Software community turn on itself. What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust? Are inflated egos allowed to remain because of their coding ability where in the business world they would have been let go? Is it because people invest themselves more personally than if they were working for money? Or is it just a situation where muckrakers can thrive because everything is done openly?

I worry that this sort of thing feeds into the 'crackpot' image many in business seem to have of the community...

politicians (2, Insightful)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424706)

Ever watched politicians, most of them behave in the same way. Maybe it's because the OOS 'movement' is also a political movement?

Re:politicians (2)

Frothy Walrus (534163) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424865)

Interpersonal politics are just large-scale politics in microcosm. From monkeys jockeying for top billing with the lady-monkeys, to kids beating on each other in a schoolyard to gain social standing, to the Slashdot trolls souring the broth for the rest of the users, to the fortunate son of an oilman from Texas gearing up to throw 500000 American boys to go beat up a fortunate son of an oilman in Baghdad and his crew.... cogitation breeds deception.

It's not that OSS is a 'movement'. It's that it's run by humans, and humans are mammals. Mammals really suck sometimes.

Re:politicians (5, Funny)

spakka (606417) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424939)

Mammals really suck sometimes

Yes, by definition

Re:politicians (1)

Frothy Walrus (534163) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425068)

give the man a cigar

Re:politicians (1)

spakka (606417) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425198)

Duh! Oh well, luckily the moderators are as clueless as I was...

Re:politicians (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425200)


The word you are thinking of is suckle.

Re:politicians (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425382)

"It's that it's run by humans", it is also run against non OSS. Which means there a a lot of people who on one hand want one thing 'OSS' and agree but on the other hand want something different to come out of there OSS efforts and argue.

In a company were you are payed you don't realy care(well I do a bit, but then I'm fucked up) about what is done with your work so long as you keep your job etc....

Re:Rather troubling... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424737)

And then it could be that the League has been inactive (well at least not smart enough to post a press release about its or KDE's activities) since Novemeber 2000. Seems like a good reason to be worried especially when websites are going down and paper work is getting messed up. Though the stuff about needing to see the books is just bunk.

Re:Rather troubling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425170)

This [kde.org] is the only reference I found to work ever done by the KDE League. This makes me think that the KDE League acts at a very high level, to move entities (governements, insititutions, corporations, ...) toward Linux and KDE.

Re:Rather troubling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425347)

This [kde.org] is the only reference I found to work ever done by the KDE League. This makes me think that the KDE League acts at a very high level, to move entities (governements, insititutions, corporations, ...) toward Linux and KDE.

+42, hilarious

Re:Rather troubling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426364)

> the KDE League acts at a very high level, to move entities (governements, insititutions, corporations, ...) toward Linux and KDE.

The converse to this is that it doesn't act at all.

Re:Rather troubling... (4, Insightful)

Scarblac (122480) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424751)

What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust?

People. Things like this happen now and then absolutely everywhere. It seems that's how we work.

Re:Rather troubling... (5, Insightful)

subgeek (263292) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424765)

me too!!!!

sites like linux and main should not fall into the trap all the mainstream media has of sensationalizing everything. news about linux should be informative and well-researched, not the extension of someone's agenda. but that is not the case. people in oss/fs have very strong opinions, and bending the truth is ok as you have any kind of excuse to promote what you like and trash what you do not like. that's why people get tired of the community. or the crackpot image you mention.

if we would be well informed, quit pointing fingers, and just stick together, open sourcerors would have a better reputation outside the community. let's promote what we love, but maintain some tolerance. if people think you hate them and their ideas, chances are pretty slim they'll ever listen to you. if you present your self as knowledgeable yet understanding, they just might think you have something to say that is worth listening to.

Re:Rather troubling... (2)

brooks_talley (86840) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425871)

"Why can't we all just get along?"

-b

Re:Rather troubling... (1)

subgeek (263292) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425957)

it's not about sounding like a hippie. (whether it's an accurate description or not) it's just about focusing on stuff that matters instead of putting down things outside your pet projects/aps. it's about making an attempt to sound informed rather than elitist. but if you want to pull people to your side, you'll need to learn to get along with them.

i was talking about things broader than just kde debates. if you want to support oss/fs, support what you like instead of creating fud about 'rival' projects. educate people instead of telling them how stupid they are for not knowing the 'truth.' it's not that hard. and it

Re:Rather troubling... (1)

Molt (116343) | more than 11 years ago | (#4428368)

news about linux should be informative and well-researched... and yet you read Slashdot? How well-researched do you think a site is that can't even be bothered to check if it's already ran the story?

Re:Rather troubling... (2, Insightful)

spruce (454842) | more than 11 years ago | (#4428572)

You don't know how right you are.

For the sake of this reply I'm forced to confess that I'm a Windows developer/user. I started off on Microsoft, got a job using micorsoft, and frankly I've never had a need to use anything else. That doesn't mean I'm not open to other solutions and ideas, and in fact since I started reading Slashdot I've learned a thing or three.

It was slow going at first. When I first got here, I would get infuriated by the zealots who would bash to hell anything related to MS. Imagine that all your knowledge is in a particular subject and you read post after post on how stupid/horrible that is and how you're a sheep etc. Of course you're going to be defensive, and certainly not receptive.

That was exactly what happened to me. I would attack Linux whenever I could, be it in conversation with friends, or with clients. My facts weren't usually backed up by much more than the fud I was angry about, but it was the party line of the opposing view.

After a while I simply got tired of the anger, and I take a lot of what I read with a grain of salt. But I am still able to appreciate other reasonable, politely spoken opinions. While I can understand most arguments, I certainly won't be preached to. The Open Source community could learn a lot from your tolerance based point of view. Well, it's not just Open Source, everbody could use a little tolerance, Mac heads & Windows zealots too.

Re:Rather troubling... (5, Interesting)

TilJ (7607) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424794)

The book the cluetrain manifesto has something to say about this. Here's my take on it:

Traditionally, markets use the language of conflict. Battles over mindshare, control of a critical market segment, etc. These sorts of internal conflicts still occurred, but they were not makde public.

The open source community makes it's internal conversation public. To me, this is a strength, not a weakness.

Doc Searls explaisn this much better than I do, for those that are interested :-)

Re:Rather troubling... (5, Interesting)

novas007 (411673) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424806)

> What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust?

Human nature. Contrary to popular belief, os/fs coders are human. Though some seem to have magical time-stretching powers that allow them to do more than a human should be able to in one day.

There are inflated egos among os/fs coders, because, once again, they are human. There are many inflated egos that don't belong to coders as well.

The reason this seems to crop up connected os/fs projects is if/when this happens at a company, _it doesn't get out_. The company doesn't want to lose image points, so conflicts stay internal. On the other hand, how do you keep an os/fs conflict internal? Have the developers talk mind to mind? They talk on public lists most of the time.

And sure, we're crackpots. Some of us prefer to fix something we don't like in software we use. Fixing something you didn't write? Horrors! Putting your heart and time into a project that doesn't make you any money! CRACKPOTS! She's a witch! BURN HER!

Re:Rather troubling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426879)

Of course there's inflated egos. In fact arguably they're even stronger in the OSS world than anywhere else in the computing industry. Think about it; Stallman demands that "GNU" be tacked onto anything that contains his supposedly free software. Yes, quote the FAQ and note that they're only "asking" about it..they also allude to legal action, and liken Linus Torvalds to some sensationalized kind of criminal for not spouting "GNU/Linux" on command. Many, -many- projects have died simply because developers on said projects couldn't get along, all grabbed the code, forked off in a million different directions and then gave up (UOX is the best example I can see of this, although there are a number of UOX-based emulators out there that still survive vibrantly). All of the biggest controversies I've ever seen in the OSS world, the nasty, name-calling type you'd be used to seeing on CNN have been due primarily to ego alone. I fail to see how any author who releases code under the GPL has any right to get in a pissing contest with someone who *gasp* decides to use the code under the terms of the license.

Re:Rather troubling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426979)

This is not a segment of the community turning on itself at all. What you are seeing is a reaction to Dennis Powell's irresponsible journalism. I also suspect it's mostly DEP and his cronies that are trolling and crapfloooding here as ACs. I wouldn't consider them (or is it only dep) members of our community, so it's hardly a civil war we have going on here.

FUD FIGHT!!!

Re:Rather troubling... (3, Insightful)

Nailer (69468) | more than 11 years ago | (#4428298)

This isn't the first time I've seen a segment of the Open Source/Free Software community turn on itself. What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust? Are inflated egos allowed to remain because of their coding ability where in the business world they would have been let go?

DEP doesn't work on KDE, and I think that it would be reasonable to expect him to be paid fopr his Linux and Main work. What causes these kinds of attacks? Ego, yes - Dennis E Powell's was burnt because many KDE contributors disagreed with aspects of Israel's involvement in the middle east, and then took offence to his article in Linux and Main on April 7 labelling them antisemites for their views.

Corporations = corruption (-1, Flamebait)

SexyKellyOsbourne (606860) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424688)

Eventually, due to the massive stock manipulation and watering that has taken place with companies like LNUX, leading only to a plummett and a loss of millions of dollars, as well as all kinds of corrupt business practices going on with KDE, Linux will go back underground.

That's a good thing -- each from their own and each to their needs works great in the software world with the ease of reproducing it, but when put into the cut-throat capitalism of Wall Street, all it is ever used for is to scam investors like crazy and make a few insiders rich.

Once those companies die, no business people will be able to have any say in Linux, and the kernel hackers will be in charge once again. It will really set Linux aside from other top-down dictatorial management commands that have ruined the late-90's economy, and from there ... ???? .... profit! :)

Re:Corporations = corruption (maybe Offtopic) (2, Informative)

doughmein_dot_net (565078) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424875)

Your statements don't match up with what I've seen, especially the part about corporate control over Linux. People keep complaining about it as if it's a bad thing, but the fact is that if Linux is to be used inside a corporation, or across a wide segment of the computing industry, then those corporations or organizations need to have some say in what goes into the operating system.

Linux has existed underground for years, but the fact that large, medium and small companies are all interested in Linux today, and are willing to spend money to make Linux more useful for them, only benefits the entire community.

As an employee of a large corporation seeking to enhance Linux support across a broad line of products, I've been amazed at just how much my company wants Linux to succeed. Of course my company's interests are almost entirely financial - better Linux support for a product means more sales - but it is good to have kernel support for a lot of new, cool hardware. Without support for new hardware, Linux would be forced back into an underground scene where everything had to be reverse-engineered and supported 1-3 years later than release. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing - most of the open source hardware drivers are well-written - but it takes time to develop, and really hurts those who want to use the latest, fastest hardware with Linux.

And, as I'm sure you realize, hardware support is what makes Linux (or any open source operating system) available to the masses. It's not like these big corporations are trying to steer the direction of Linux into something unusable and non-functional for normal Linux users, like you and me. The source code is still out there - the major commercial distributions (Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE) are getting better than ever, the free and source-based distributions (Debian, Gentoo, etc.) are thriving and growing, and nothing prevents anybody from using Linux the way they want to.

If no business people have any say in Linux, as you suggest, then Linux will no longer be useful for business, and will no longer benefit from the investments of those individuals, venture capitalists, and corporations who want to make Linux usable in the real world.

If you want an example of an "underground" operating system, look at OpenBSD. So far as I know, the development team has practically no commercial support or corporations helping to steer the development of the operating system. They continue to work entirely on their drive for perfection, and the generous donations (including CD sales) of their user base. On the other hand, OpenBSD still has no production-quality SMP support for x86 hardware, which is a major limitation and will limit the utility of this operating system. It bugs me, but they seem to be fine with the pace of development. Contrast this with IBM's efforts to make Linux work on their newest and fastest mainframe hardware.

If you really want to back underground, then CP/M and Amiga are still out there, waiting to be revived.

BTW - The subject of the investigation (mentioned above) was the KDE League, which is a separate entity from KDE e.V. Whether or not this business operated corruptly will not affect the development of KDE - they are completely separate organizations.

Re:Corporations = corruption (1)

SabberFlapper (533942) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425083)

And now Linux even trys to copy the leading operating system... :-) http://www.xpde.com Oh, Linux is Osama's special weapon ;-) And of course KDE as it originates from Europe is dangerous...

All that info and nothing really (2)

Archfeld (6757) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424697)

tells you what it is they do or plan to do ? These are not the devolpers I believe, though I am confused enough now to not really know...anyone with a better grasp explain this to me...PLEASE...

Re:All that info and nothing really (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425602)

That's the idea... KDE is trying to throw up enough shit to avoid answering the allegations... and avoid saying where all the money has gone. They want to turn this into a "dep is trying to crucify us because we flamed him" thing... it's not... it's about financial fraud.

Sigh... (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424701)

It's common knowledge that OfB.biz is just a KDE mouthpiece. This article does NOT, repeat NOT, clean up anything. Even though there are no legal REQUIREMENTS to disclose the financials, it should still be done. Where did the donated money go? Wht does the KDE league do, apart from possibly syphoning money to Pour?

This is a stink that will no go away with a few nice words from a KDE friendly website.

Re:Sigh... (5, Funny)

a.out (31606) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424743)

Dilbert [dilbert.com] may hold the answer

Re:Sigh... (2, Interesting)

kenp2002 (545495) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424745)

Try asking the United Way where their dontations go... You would be suprised where some of their money goes! Next time they want your money ask them if you can itemize your donation. Be prepared for a run-around.

Re:Sigh... (wandering offtopic, but important) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425178)

If your United Way is run anything like our local United Way is, it should be pretty apparent where the money goes if you take the time to, like, actually ask them. Money comes in through pledges and bequests, money goes out through allocations to agencies. Our local agency allocation process is done by volunteers from the community who accept requests from local agencies and determine how much goes to each depending on (their interpretation) of the needs of the community.

O'Reilly went a long way towards undermining United Way with his unique style of journalism. Please understand that each United Way is a local entity that must pay a small fraction to the national organization for use of the name, but is generally otherwise independent. Unless you were in New York, it is unlikely that your United Way had anything to do with the Sept. 11th fund. You should be able to ask your United Way for a list of agencies that they have supported in the past, and if you don't like some of the agencies they allocate to some allow you to request that your donation only go to a particular agency or that it goes to all but some of them -- or, more constructively, you can ask to become part of their allocation process and help steer them in a direction you think is better. At worst, you can always donate directly to the agencies they support individually.

Unfortunately, most people who muster up the plan to give to charity don't need much disincentive to kill that desire. Misinformation seems to work as well as anything else to stamp out philantrophic desires. If you are concerned about the practices of your local United Way, please don't let it stop you from giving to other causes.

Re:Sigh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424802)

umm... is this your money? if not, then shutup and let the people who invested find out for themselves.

Re:Sigh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425375)

umm... is this your money? if not, then shutup and let the people who invested find out for themselves.

Not unless he's Andreas Pour ;)

Re:Sigh... (4, Informative)

nonmaskable (452595) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424877)

OfB demonstrated with actual facts (gasp!), on-record quotes from the actual responsible authorities (gasp!) that DEP lied and made up information he published in his articles.

Do you have anything factual to add, or do you just need more aluminum foil in your hat?

This is non of your business! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424950)

The KDE leage did not receive donations from the public. They collect membership fees, which start at $5000. Members are corporations, like HP, Compaq, IBM, Fujitsu-Siemens, Mandrake and others.

I cannot see, why the KDE leage should have a moral obligation to open their books for us. In fact, there may be a good reason for secrecy because of their competition. Why should companies, like HP and Compaq, which depend on Microsoft so much disclose their strategies towards a competing product to Redmond?

Re:This is non of your business! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425276)

Wait a damned minute... I remember when the GNOME foundation was announced. The KDE project rushed to announce their own copy of it... all the while accusing GNOME of being corporate puppets, whereas the KDE project was a community thing.

Now we have the GNOME foundation disclosing everything, and the KDE league turning out to be a closed club which you have no right to be involved in.

pfff... there is a pattern to the KDE world. The project itself is cathedral run by TrollTech for the purposes of selling Qt licenses and the League is a closed club for corporates. Remind me again where the community involvement is here?

Re:This is non of your business! (1)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425762)

The GNOME Foundation steers, the kindest words for this, the GNOME development. KDE development is done by the community, the KDE league has nothing to say there. KDE development is very bazaar like. TrollTech doesn't earn anything because of KDE using Qt GPL version. And the League is open for new members. Your posting is full of FUD.

Re:This is non of your business! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425901)

Trolltech doesn't earn anything through KDE? What fucking planet do you live on? Without Matthias' choosing the closed-source Qt (with attendant GPL violations) as the base for KDE, TrollTech would be an tiny, unknown provider of a shitty, bloated software layer that makes all platforms look like Windows.

BTW: Matthias now works for Trolltech doesn't he... along with many other KDE core developers.

Re:This is non of your business! (1)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426261)

Read again, TrollTech doesn't earn anything with the GPL version. You don't have to pay anything to use KDE. And it was definitively not closed source when he chose it. The rest of your message is trolling too. Btw, once you work for TrollTech you don't seem to have much time to stay a active core developer. Most contributions of TrollTech employees to KDE are for KDE1 and up to KDE 2.0 in my opinion.

Re:This is non of your business! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426400)

> Read again, TrollTech doesn't earn anything with the GPL version.

The point is.. TrollTech would have been nobody without KDE.

> Btw, once you work for TrollTech you don't seem to have much time to stay a active core developer. Most contributions of TrollTech employees to KDE are for KDE1 and up to KDE 2.0 in my opinion.

Yes, I suppose so.

Re:This is non of your business! (1)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426431)

> The point is.. TrollTech would have been nobody without KDE. Maybe, nobody can tell without poor speculating.

Re:This is non of your business! (1)

Hafer (585097) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426390)

You want to look Matthias and others like someone, who decided years ago in a way to get a job years later in a company still so very minor that you need a microscope to find it in the IT universe?
How silly.

Re:This is non of your business! (2)

fault0 (514452) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426481)

> TrollTech would be an tiny, unknown provider of a shitty, bloated software layer that makes all platforms look like Windows.

TrollTech makes most of it's money from commercial windows licenses. It doesn't make anything off of KDE.

> BTW: Matthias now works for Trolltech doesn't he

And how much code has Matthias written in KDE since he joined TrollTech? Very little.

Anyways, what do you have against TrollTech? They provide the community a useful service by providing a version of their toolkit under the GPL. They made the toolkit, they can license it however they want. If you don't like it, don't use it, but don't spread FUD around. It sounds awfully like Microsoft's "gpl'd software is bad" tirades.

Re:This is non of your business! (2)

fault0 (514452) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426774)

The KDE project rushed to announce their own copy of it...

You ignore the fact that the KDE project had nothing to do at all with the creation of the league.

the KDE league turning out to be a closed club which you have no right to be involved in.

Isn't it supposed to be like that? Unless of course, you run a corporation and wish to contribute to the PR of KDE, or you are a KDE contributor who is a member of the KDE e.V. board

Re:Sigh... (2, Interesting)

cozziewozzie (344246) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424964)

You're wrong. This article clears up the DEP issue quite well. To remind you, this refers to the accusations that KDE League had gone bankrupt, were laundering money, avoiding taxation etc.


As for the disclosure of funds, that's a different issue which sprang from this. It would be interesting to know what happened with the money, but it would be even better to see the money used for good stuff by the KDE League.

Re:Sigh... (2, Interesting)

navindra (7571) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424989)

Hey, that's bullshit. How does this get moderated so high? Timothy has gotten into a fight with "KDE" more than once is in fact a *personal* friend of dep.

Re:Sigh... (2)

fault0 (514452) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426805)

> It's common knowledge that OfB.biz is just a KDE mouthpiece.

?

> it should still be done.

Why? Are you a corporation that sponsors the league? If you were, you'd be able to see the finances anyways.

Am not even close to satisfied... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424717)

To state that the matter is closed only makes the coverup appear complete.

DEP did nothing but ask questions and make available information as it was presented and mostly what I saw was character attacks rather than questions answered.

I do not accept Pour's explanations, Timothy's spin or Mathias' statement.

Perhaps my clients and I will be better served by GNOME and leave KDE to the thieves.

How humiliating for KDE and open source!

Re:Am not even close to satisfied... (0)

ksuMacGyver (562019) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424887)

You should login DEP...

Re:Am not even close to satisfied... (3, Insightful)

fault0 (514452) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426448)

> DEP did nothing but ask questions and make available information as it was presented and mostly what I saw was character attacks rather than questions answered.

Uh, the KDE league is a private corporation that has nothing to do with the KDE Project (i.e, KDE e.V) It doesn't need to disclose anything to you. Are you going to go and ask Microsoft, Dell, RedHat, and Intel for all of their private financial records?

> Perhaps my clients and I will be better served by GNOME and leave KDE to the thieves.

=troll

>How humiliating for KDE and open source!

=FUD

OFB is a KDE mouthpiece? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424770)

What a bunch of crap, just because someone posts an article that was actually researched OFB is a "KDE mouthpiece". Point out one part of his article that is factually incorrect. Can't do it, can you?

How come you totally neglect the fact that not one thing in DEP's articles was true, including comments he attributed to the Delaware Secretary of State's office that they deny ever making, anyone in their office making, and are factually incorrect. Someone refutes a mostly imaginary article and you say they are a "KDE mouthpiece".

I'll point out parts that are incorrect. (3, Interesting)

raehl (609729) | more than 11 years ago | (#4427719)

Number one, the IRS database is not exhaustive. You're not required to file for a letter recognizing your 501(c)3 status from the IRS for 15 months from the creation of your organization, or 27 with the automtic extention. You're additionally not required to file if your gross annual receipts are less than $5k.

Additionally, there are many types of non-profit organizations of which 501(c)3's are only a small subjection - non-profit organizations that are *ALSO* CHARITIBLE organizations. All IRS-recognized non-profits are tax-exempt, but only CHARITIBLE ones (501(c)3's and a very few others) can accept TAX-DEDUCTIBLE contributions.

Basically, the REAL question here is this:

Does the KDE League accept tax-deductible contributions? If yes, then they're likely required to have accounting information publically available (but not much - just their Form 990's), if not, then they're not.

Ultimately, it is up to the members of an organization to keep track of the organization's accounting (the rights of the members to access the accounting information is a matter of state law) and the people making contributions to make sure their contribution will be spent effectively when they make the contribution.

Not a member and not giving money and the organization is not a public charitible organization (which it does not appear the KDE league is?) Then its none of your business what they do with their money.

There seems to be a misconception that non-profit = public or that non-profit = charitible. Neither of those is true.

Very helpful (-1)

Sir Bard (605512) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424840)

This was very helpful

I'm a linux sysadmin and my current project is porting KDE to win32 os. I haven't been able to find a HOWTO on compiling the code in Visual Basic yet but when I do I'll release it under the GPL

OFB is a KDE mouthpiece? (4, Insightful)

mosfet++ (43965) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424846)

What a bunch of crap, just because someone posts an article that was actually researched OFB is a "KDE mouthpiece". Point out one part of his article that is factually incorrect. Can't do it, can you?

How come you totally neglect the fact that not one thing in DEP's articles was true, including comments he attributed to the Delaware Secretary of State's office that they deny ever making, anyone in their office making, and are factually incorrect. Someone refutes a mostly imaginary FUD article and you say they are a "KDE mouthpiece". No one talks about making up quotes and facts, but still troll KDE when they did absolutely nothing wrong.

How about the fact that the Gnome foundation hasn't released their financials yet? You'd think you'd at least give the KDE League the same amount of time they get considering they started later, but no :P You want it, *now*, even though you have no right to anything at all.

This whole story is crap, and proved to be lies.

Re:OFB is a KDE mouthpiece? x2! (0, Offtopic)

LordYUK (552359) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424908)

Oh good god... First there was the duplicate story, now we have duplicate postings? What's next, a headline about Microsoft shutting down some rinky dink Korean mod chip distributor?

Sorry about that, wasn't logged in first time :P (0, Offtopic)

mosfet++ (43965) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424953)

Feel free to mod the original anon posting down, I have no moderation capability :/

Re:Sorry about that, wasn't logged in first time : (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425412)

Feel free to mod the original anon posting down, I have no moderation capability :/

Thank you, I wouldn't have felt comfortable modding down the post you copied if I hadn't got your permission first.

Re:OFB is a KDE mouthpiece? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425574)

On the subject of factless ranting... have you updated your webpage to correct all the tinfoil-hat misinformation you've been spreading about Red Hat. You hypocritical fucknut.

Still leaves questions unanswered (4, Interesting)

AIXadmin (10544) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424910)

1. There is no IRS not-for-profit database. There is guidestar and http://wwww.guidestar.org/ does not always have the most up to date information. Often there filings are 1 or two years behind or might not exist at all.

2. If the KDE league is not a 501(c)3 then what the heck is the KDE league?

I believe the KDE leagues corporate filings should be available from the State of Deleware.

Re:Still leaves questions unanswered (4, Informative)

brokeninside (34168) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425139)

There is no IRS not-for-profit database.

The database the OFB article refered to is the IRS Search for Charities [irs.gov] web page.

If the KDE league is not a 501(c)3 then what the heck is the KDE league?
A tax exempt 501(c) organization is a an organization that meets certain requirements (one of which is being a not-for-profit organization) and has applied to and received tax exempt status from the IRS. Not-for-profits can also file for tax exempt status under 501(a) and 501(d). The IRS currently requires organizations that are tax exempt (except for private foundations) to provide public disclosure of certain tax forms such as the corporate 1023 or 1024. See FAQs regarding the Exempt Organization Public Disclosure Requirements [irs.gov] for more information.

As the KDE league is not a 501(c) organization, it is one of the many other types of not-for-profit organizations recognized by the state of Delaware. See the The Nonprofit FAQ [nonprofits.org] for more information about what type of not-for-profit organizations exist.

Not quite (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4428136)

There are all kinds of tax exempt entities. Section 527 political nonprofits, section 107 and others. None applies here, and most (if you read the disclosure laws closely) are required to disclose some financial information publically.

501(d)s I believe are churches, which I think doesn't apply here. 501(a) organizations are related for foreign entities, and may be subject to disclosure.

In any case, the fact that the KDE league claims to the state of delaware that it is a 501(c)3 is interesting, given the fact that it says it is not such an organization.

There is such as thing as a "not-for-profit" organization where the IRS is concerned, and that's all that matters. States do not determine whether a group is tax exempt or not; the IRS does.

It is a probably a for-profit company that decides not to make a profit. That's what the KDE league appears to be. What you're missing here is that the league *claims* to be a 501(c) to the state of Delaware.

The question is why would it not want to be a 501, especially when it would be so advantageous for the league to file as a 501(C). All contributions would then be tax-deductable.

Why are people so willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt when they have repeatedly offered unclear and inconcsistent explainations of their activity? Just because they are affiliated with the open source community? Please, take your blinders off. Something smells in the state of Delaware, folks, whether you want to believe it or not.

I think Dennis Powell should be commended for raising these questions.

They do have an obligation to disclose. (2)

small_dick (127697) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424918)

Claiming they do not have to disclose is a joke. The IRS, for example, can demand a full disclosure of all their books.

Depending on their status they may or may not need to disclose cartain information to the public.

Statements like this do not make for good public relations. Someone needs to have a talk with this guy.

"disclosure" (1)

brokeninside (34168) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425423)

The debate is not over whether or not the KDE League has to file tax forms. The debate is over whether or not the KDE League has any obligation to disclose key financial documents to the public.

For tax exempt nonprofit organizations, public disclosure of certain documents is mandatory. In this context it matters a great deal as to whether or not the KDE Leauge is a tax exempt organization.

Bear in mind, that not all nonprofit organzations are tax exempt. A good example is that most Politcal Action Committees (PACs) are organized as nonprofit organizations. However, PACs are precluded from having tax exempt status.

KDE 3.0.4 is out (3, Informative)

InodoroPereyra (514794) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424944)

How about mentioning something useful ?. is KDE 3.04 is out [kde.org] , with several bugfixes (including two security advisories and several memory leaks in the libs).

Re:KDE 3.0.4 is out (2)

mickwd (196449) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426687)

It's also nice to see this amongst the changelog [kde.org] :

Drag-and-drop of URLs : Improved compatibility with non-KDE apps

Good work all round, guys.

The American Way (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4424945)

Obviously the proper way to handle this is to start a New League. Call it the Gnome League, or maybe the Sawfish League. Let the KDE league play with themselves most of the year*, and the Gnome League play with THEMSELVES most of the year*, and bring the best teams from each league together at the end of the year for one big series. Sell tickets, get it on ABC or ESPN, it'll be great. Maybe you could get Don King and pugil sticks involved somehow, with Natalie Portman as sideline reporter girl.

*you know that is how they spend most of their free time anyway...

Secret relationship... (0)

L1nUx h4x0r (574828) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424980)

Perhap DEP is the son/daughter of "Deep Throat"....

Anacronyms are FUN!! (4, Funny)

LordYUK (552359) | more than 11 years ago | (#4424984)

hmm... IMHO from the DEP atricle, it sounds like KDE and OFB are SOL, but WTF do I know, I didnt RTFM... and better yet, WGASA?

TTFN!

Humor Folks, enjoy it! =)

Some background please? (2)

Jester99 (23135) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425098)

For those of us who have not kept up with Days of our KDE Lives, can anybody please post the backstory?

What is the KDE League? What's their relationship to KDE / The Kompany / anyone else? And what's the current stink about?

The article just leads me to believe that "KDE League" publishes press releases for KDE, and they dissapeared all of a sudden. Was there money stolen/embezzled? I'm not sure I understand the broad picture.

Re:Some background please? (4, Funny)

sharkey (16670) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425214)

What is the KDE League?

Kind of like the Justice League of America, but without attractive people in leather tights, superpowers or monkeys.

Re:Some background please? (3, Funny)

Jester99 (23135) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425502)

The monkeys, I assume, are in the Ximian League? :)

Re:Some background please? (1)

azimir (316998) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426089)

So the KDE League only has the leather tights and monkeys? I presume the superpowers are mainly focused around delusions of grandeur.

Re:Some background please? (5, Informative)

Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425588)

The KDE League is essentially a "fan club". It was formed, independent of the actual KDE software projects, to promote KDE.

It would be like ME setting up "The Microsoft League" in my basement, and selling Memberships to, say, Compaq, Intuit Software, Ziff-Davis, and a handful of other corporations who like Microsoft. I would have no direct relationship with Microsoft, I'd just be claiming I want to "promote Microsoft".

In this hypothetical case, Compaq, Intuit, etc. may end up having wasted the money they gave me, but it still has no effect on Microsoft...

Dennis E. Powell posted a somewhat sensational story claiming that the KDE League had ceased to exist, asking "what happened to the money?" and so on. (Several people have accused DEP of having a sort of 'vendetta' against KDE in general over political disagreements he had with people on a KDE-mailinglist-hosted-but-not-KDE-related mailing list (i.e. the 'all topics other than KDE' mailing list) - DEP had posted an editorial which began with an implication that maybe the "K" in KDE was there because it resembled a goose-stepping soldier [linuxandmain.com] ) Andreas Pour of the KDE League posted a response to DEP's story on the KDE League saying, in essence, "It's merely a clerical error, we're getting it sorted out, and we really can't say much more without approval from our members". DEP posted a story in response saying (my interpretation/summary) - "Delaware says you're a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so you have to tell us WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY!". The most recent exchange here seems to be Pour saying "We're not a 501(c)(3), We called Delaware and they said A)They didn't say we were B)Nobody there should say were were and C)No, we're NOT a 501(c)(3)", and DEP's response that he "stands by his story".

As I posted above, I am puzzled why all the noise is coming out of this - it looks like what we have is a handful of rabid pro- and anti- KDE people all getting caught up in the sensationalism. The small handful of ANTI-KDE folks yelling because they want to discredit KDE, and the PRO-KDE folks yelling because they either feel they're being slandered or are worried that the KDE software projects are somehow being "ripped off" by the KDE League (presumably in the mistaken belief that the KDE League is analogous to the Gnome Foundation rather than merely a 'fan club'). The sheer volume of the screaming seems to be bringing attention from a whole mess or more normal people who are trying to figure out what all the fuss is about...

Disclaimer - the above is entirely my interpretation, except were indicated, and could very well be wrong. That IS how I see this issue, though...

Re:Some background please? (2)

Jester99 (23135) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425689)

Whoa, thorough.
Thanks a lot! :)

WHY KDE is WRONG (an Editorial by DEP) (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4425118)

KDE was cooked up in the same country that started both World Wars, embraced philosophies of destruction and hate (such as Nazism and Fascism), and spawned evil murderous maniacs such as Adolf Hitler.

By using KDE you are implicitly endorsing these hatemongering people and their genocidal dogmas.

A true patriot uses GNOME, written in the land of the free and the home of the brave. By using Gnome you are re-affirming your American ideals and supporting the open doctrine of truth, liberty, and love.

--DEP

This story has still not been cleared up (4, Informative)

JoeBuck (7947) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425196)

The KDE League bylaws [kdeleague.org] clearly state that it is a nonprofit, and the article makes the case that it is not a 501(c)(3) organization. Is it, then, a 501(c)(6) organization (a business league)?

If so, there are, indeed, public disclosure requirements imposed by the IRS. See this page [irs.gov] and read the last paragraph. Yes, this page applies to all nonprofits, including business leagues, as this page [irs.gov] makes clear. If, in fact, the KDE League is a "business league", Dennis Powell (no matter how much of a jerk you or I might think he is, and believe me, I'm not a fan) was within his legal rights to ask for disclosures. He is not be entitled to the full books, but he is entitled to "the last three annual information returns".

If the KDE league is not a 501(c)(6) either, then I don't see how it can be a legal nonprofit at all, in which case they owe Delaware filing fees that haven't been paid.

You can't just say that you're an ordinary corporation that doesn't expect to make money. With such a status you have to pay filing fees to the state of Delaware, and Delaware is now saying that the league doesn't owe them. So which is it? Either KDE League has to pay Delaware or they have to give Dennis Powell their annual information report. One or the other.

If I'm wrong, then it must be the case that the KDE League has some alternate legal status that I'm not familiar with. If so, what is it?

I'm not saying this to attack KDE. KDE and the KDE League are distinct entities, and I'm not seeing any evidence that the KDE League is serving the interests of KDE's developers or users. Any responses should leave the personality or beliefs of Dennis Powell out, as they are irrelevant.

Stop confusing "nonprofit" with "tax exempt" (1)

brokeninside (34168) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425354)

The page you linked to deals exclusively with the disclosure obligations of tax exempt organizations. Not all nonprofits are tax exempt.

Most nonprofit organizations file normal corporate tax returns and face no more disclosure rules than any other private organization. It is only those nonprofit organizations that have also filed for and have received tax exempt status from the IRS that face additional disclosure requirements.

Put bluntly, the IRS doesn't concern itself with whether or not a corporation is incorporated as a nonprofit organization. The IRS only cares that the corporation pays its federal taxes unless that corporation has applied for and received tax exempt status.

Given that there is no reason to believe that the KDE league has applied for (much less received) tax exempt status, there is no reason to believe that the KDE league faces additional disclosure requirements over any other non-public corporation.

You may also be interested in reading the Delaware Revised Code [state.de.us] on the subject. See especially Title 8, Chapter 1.

Re:Stop confusing "nonprofit" with "tax exempt" (2)

JoeBuck (7947) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425671)

What I am asking for is for someone to clarify the exact legal status that the KDE League has.

The legal status of the KDE league (1)

brokeninside (34168) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425758)

They are an nonprofit corporation incorporated in the state of Delaware. You can write to the clerk of courts of the state of Delaware and get copy of their articles of incorporation. If the KDE Leage was also a tax exempt organization (which they claim their not), you could also write to them and request a copy of their IRS Form 1023 (or 1024) for the past three financial periods.

Re:Stop confusing "nonprofit" with "tax exempt" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426875)

They already did, but apparently you're covering your ears and humming loudly...

Re:This story has still not been cleared up (1)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425521)

Why don't you trust the federal state Delaware to handle this correctly? Ok, after they charged a penalty by error - but they are the only one besides KDE e.V., because their trademark is used, and the payers who can request insight into the League's books.

The KDE League is merely a "Fan Club"! (5, Interesting)

Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425313)

What *I* don't get in all of this is - isn't the KDE League getting its money from private corporations (I see NO individuals in the members list, only corporations, several of which are rather large)...one of whom is KDE e.V. (Am I reading this correctly)? Who in turn says they've got no reason to believe anything funny's going on? It's THEIR money - if THEY don't think anything wrong is being done with it, why the heck does anyone who DIDN'T give them money care?

I've only seen one entity that actually ever had anything to do with the KDE League complain, and that's Shawn Gordon, whose company apparently USED TO BE a member (but are not any more, as far as I know. Unpleasant 'break-up', perhaps?).

I keep seeing comparisons with the Gnome Foundation, which is a completely different type of group. The Gnome Foundation, as I understand it, is directly involved in steering Gnome development - it's actually an official part of the Gnome project(s). The KDE League is purely promotional - to put it bluntly, the KDE League is a "Fan Club". They have no more involvement in 'steering' or otherwise influencing development than any other fan of KDE does.

It's also been pointed out elsewhere that $120,000 is a lot of money when it's sitting in a suitcase on your doorstep in the form of small unmarked bills, but it's a pittance when considered as a yearly budget for any kind of corporation. I think the highest-paid individual there is said to have been paid $36k/year salary to run it. Take out that, rent on facilities, purchase of equipment, and so on, and there's not much left...

Now, as to whether or not the KDE League is effective at DOING anything, I couldn't say. I do certainly get the impression that they've not been active at all (basically, as far as I know, they've spent the little funding they had by just merely existing, and not really accomplishing anything), but given that the unrelated-except-by-name-and-theme KDE Software projects (that is, the actual developers, etc., who have no relationship with the KDE League as far as I know) seem to be doing just fine without the KDE League's additional promotion, I'm not too concerned about it. For all I care, the KDE League could have spent all the money on cheap prostitutes, malt liquor, and pornographic videos featuring necropedobestiality, and it will have still done no more harm than wasting a few thousand dollars each from a handful of private corporations (there are 10 listed on the members page - if they all donated the same amount, that's a "whopping" $12,000 each. That's barely pocket-change to corporations like IBM and Fujitsu-Siemens...), who don't seem to even care what happened to THEIR money...

'Scuze the long post, I'm just utterly baffled at all the screaming going on over this thing. I could understand a chorus of "Ha, ha, member corporations, you wasted your money", but shrieking hatred of the sort reserved for Enron and Worldcom and so on just makes no sense to me at all...

Re:The KDE League is merely a "Fan Club"! (1)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4425656)

Read this insightful posting [kde.org] of Chris Schlaeger (SuSE distribution development chief) about KDE e.V. and KDE League. Note that new board members of KDE e.V. were elected recently, the RedHat employee is not in there anymore.

Re:The KDE League is merely a "Fan Club"! (3, Informative)

mickwd (196449) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426629)

Thank you for a calm, well-reasoned comment amongst acres of rubbish.

According to a comment on the OfB.biz article, one of the things the KDE League has spent money on is a PR firm.

Perhaps that PR firm has been kept busy announcing new releases of KDE, such as KDE 3.0.4, OUT TODAY [kde.org] .

And the man at the centre of the storm, Andreas Pour (also known as Dre), has been busy too - here's another announcement of KDE 3.0.4 [kde.org] at dot.kde.org.

Nice to see he's keeping on in there and just getting on with the job. All this code doesn't just appear by magic.

KDE suffers from a lack of openness and democracy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426311)

KDE seems to be run more like a private club with a small in-group appointing people to positions and making the decisions. It should take a leaf from the GNOME book and have elections and more openness generally.

Re:KDE suffers from a lack of openness and democra (1)

twener (603089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426459)

Please give examples what got discussed and decided secretly and presumably against common consensus. And what positions are to be appointed.

Re:KDE suffers from a lack of openness and democra (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426683)

> KDE seems to be run more like a private club with a small in-group appointing people to positions and making the decisions.

Care to show specific places where this is so?

As a developer with both kde-cvs and gnome-cvs accounts, I think kde is the more accessible group. From my experience, I can commit things pretty much as I please, except for things like freezes (and a few other small mishaps I won't go into).

gnome-cvs, on the other hand, has a few problems. First, a number of times, my commits have been reverted by groups (such as people employed by wipro) When the maintainer of the module is asked, they usually side with the group, not the individual programmer :\

Anyways, things have gotten better since gnome2 was released. It was _much_ worse before when different groups of people rallied against other groups or singled out individual people. It was quite possibly the world's first cvs war. Things like that don't happen anymore in such a scale, but it still happens from time to time.

kde-cvs doesn't really have these problems because there really aren't any groups. It's more every man to themselves, which keeps the whole group intact.

HogWash (3, Flamebait)

oldstrat (87076) | more than 11 years ago | (#4426350)

.
Too much of all this KDE League Bunk is just hogwash.

Is anyone here, asside from myself able to make a couple of clicks and read for themselves?

It is VERY VERY clear that the KDE League is supposed to be a Public Relations front for KDE.

It is also quite clear that it is a not for profit, not a non-profit.

It is also quite clear that they are not working as a PR group and that moneys are being piped from for profits into the hands of a special few.

The State Attorney General of Delaware needs to be looking into this organization to see exactly what the story is and should be contacting the members.

I don't hold any stock in the companies that are members, but if I did I would be sending letters to the Boards of those companies asking for clarification.

One thing is for certain there's smoke and KDE League appears to be pulling PR pranks to pretend that it's just a low level fog, and nothings burning.

And before the legal dogs start barking at my door I want to make it clear that this is my OPINION, each of you are free to explore the facts and form your own.

slashdot, why not use the new Keramik Kde icon ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4426666)

the one with the sapphire glass bead centre.

What Happened (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4427244)

The story is basically very simple. The KDE League was set up to promote KDE, and it got $120,000 to spend doing it. This seemed like a good idea and so everyone was hopeful good things would happen. But two years have passed and little or no promotion has been done, and so most people are curious as to what went wrong. When asked, the leaders say nothing, and so a lot of people wonder if they have something to hide. I myself am a KDE user and I wish they just tell us what happened. Maybe they don't have to legally but it would settle the issue and then we could go on to other, more rewarding things.

By the way, here is a list of the original KDE League members:
Caldera
Compaq
Corel
Fujitsu-Siemens
Hewlett-Packard
IBM
KDE.com
Klarälvdalens Datakonsult
theKompany.com
Mandrakesoft
SuSE

Maybe people could email them to find out what happened. I did that with IBM three days ago and the fellow said he would look into it, but I have not gotten a reply back yet.

Insider's scoop: What Killed FreeBSD (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4427715)

The End of FreeBSD

[note the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD]

When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.

Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.

FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile.

It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics.

So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project.

Discussion

I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly.

From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished.

There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.

Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.

Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers?

Shouts

To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.

To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. It's when you get distracted by the politickers that they sideline you. The tireless work that you perform keeping the system clean and building is what provides the platform for the obsessives and the prima donnas to have their moments in the sun. In the end, we need you all; in order to go forwards we must first avoid going backwards.

To the paranoid conspiracy theorists - yes, I work for Apple too. No, my resignation wasn't on Steve's direct orders, or in any way related to work I'm doing, may do, may not do, or indeed what was in the tea I had at lunchtime today. It's about real problems that the project faces, real problems that the project has brought upon itself. You can't escape them by inventing excuses about outside influence, the problem stems from within.

To the politically obsessed - give it a break, if you can. No, the project isn't a lemonade stand anymore, but it's not a world-spanning corporate juggernaut either and some of the more grandiose visions going around are in need of a solid dose of reality. Keep it simple, stupid.

To the grandstanders, the prima donnas, and anyone that thinks that they can hold the project to ransom for their own agenda - give it a break, if you can. When the current core were elected, we took a conscious stand against vigorous sanctions, and some of you have exploited that. A new core is going to have to decide whether to repeat this mistake or get tough. I hope they learn from our errors.

Future

I started work on FreeBSD because it was fun. If I'm going to continue, it has to be fun again. There are things I still feel obligated to do, and with any luck I'll find the time to meet those obligations.

However I don't feel an obligation to get involved in the political mess the project is in right now. I tried, I burnt out. I don't feel that my efforts were worthwhile. So I won't be standing for election, I won't be shouting from the sidelines, and I probably won't vote in the next round of ballots.

You could say I'm packing up my toys. I'm not going home just yet, but I'm not going to play unless you can work out how to make the project somewhere fun to be again.

= Mike

--

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -- Theodore Roosevelt
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