Visiting the World, as a Geek?

Han Onymous asks: "In nine months my contract as a research assistent at my Alma Mater will come to an end. It will not be renewed, I don't want it to be anyway. But outside the economy is too ill to welcome me. I am young. I am healthy. And I want to see the world before I've got the wife and the kids and the double mortgage. I have no money saved, and I don't plan to save some until then. What can a skillful geek (electrical, electronical and software engineer, speaks three languages fluently) like me do to see the world. Volunteer ? Working for a multinational with exchange programs? Something with no connection at all to the tech world? Please share your experience."

Peace Corp

[Anonymous Coward]

Join the peace corps [peacecorps.gov].

Re:Peace Corp

[Otisserie]

I taught computer science in Africa in 1981 with the Peace Corps. Probably one of the first volunteers to do it. I had a great time, but every Peace Corps situation is completely different; there's a lot of luck involved. Peace Corps does have a number of things going for it: 1) medical care and a good connection to the US Embassy, if things get messy; 2) a readjustment allowance that I believe is about $225 for every month you spend abroad (this is over and above your living stipend); 3) non-competitive eligibility for civil service jobs if you complete your service; 4) an actual reason to be in the country you're in, you're not just a tourist; 5) student loan deferrment; 6) I found that both employers and grad schools respected Peace Corps service; I'm convinced it helped me get into grad school. Your mileage may vary, but all told I'm very glad I did it.

Re:Peace Corp

[jonbrewer]

Peace Corps does have a number of things going for it:

The "things going for it" you list don't exactly coincide with the poster's desires, but at least they're accurate.

I found that the Peace Corps bureaucracy is pretty much the worst nightmare of any free thinking geek. And the tech jobs they talk about just don't exist. While I wouldn't trade my time as a volunteer for anything, I certainly wouldn't sign up again.

I was accepted in 1997, invited in 1998, delayed, invited, delayed, and finally made it to Poland in 1999. I had planned to teach networking skills, having owned an ISP in the early days. I ended up as an English teacher in a rural school, because that's pretty much what Peace Corps does. The school treated me like a kid, because that's what their previous volunteers were.

I resigned after a year in-country, (having outlasted almost half of PC Poland 15) resolving never to work for the US Government again.

I certainly see myself volunteering again, but next time will be with a privately funded NGO. Or maybe just on my own.

Advice to poster: steer clear of Peace Corps. Do some serious research before committing to any organization. Or if you're not of that mindset, put $4000 in your bank account, grab "Lonely Planet" Eastern Europe, and wander around for a year. Email me if you like - I know your situation well.

Peace Corps

[jefu]

I did the peace corps thing after college. And I'd recommend it highly. If you have the chance, jump at it. You'll see and do things you'd probably never encounter otherwise and you'll learn a lot. Some employers will discount it as will some grad schools - but others will look on it as a big plus.

Re:Peace Corp

[dan_lamb]

Forget the Peace Corps.

Join the Army. I did it, and I loved every minute of it. You should also forget about using your 'tech skills'. Join the Infantry. You'll learn more about life in three years in the infantry than you would in a lifetime in some crappy cubicle or university lab. You might also get a chance to see some beautiful places like Japan, korea, Thailand, or Germany. You might also see some not so beautiful places under less than ideal circumstances. Which story would you rather tell your grand children: '... and our database design was better than everyone elses' or '... and there I was in my fox hole with bombs exploding all around me ...'?

If it's adventure you're looking for, look no further than www.goarmy.com. Freedom isn't free. Anty up and kick in.

Re:Peace Corp

[bugnuts]

If I were modding, I'd mod you up, dan.

But there's one big, nasty assumption you're making when you say Which story would you rather tell your grand children: '... and our database design was better than everyone elses' or '... and there I was in my fox hole with bombs exploding all around me ...'?

The assumption you're making is that you'll live to have grandchildren if you have bombs going off around you. I would say that now might NOT be the time to join the military, unless you honestly want to see action. Most geeks I know don't "take orders" very well, and aren't very keen on shooting at others, unless they're driving a remote-control joystick-driven bomb with cool graphics and lots of 'splosions.

Re:Peace Corp

[Dolly_Llama]

Most geeks I know don't "take orders" very well

This is a common excuse for people reticent about joining the military. The obvious response is 1) You take orders regardless of whether they come from a sergeant or your shift manager at the Taco Bell. Live with it. 2) Someone has got to be giving the orders, so if you think you can do better, get yourself some stripes or a commision and try it yourself tough guy. Seriously, the military is only as good as its personnel. It needs smart kids (geeks even) as much as it needs stereotypical grunts. The majority of manpower aren't people shooting, but supporting those who shoot.

Re:Peace Corp

[Ian Bicking]

You take orders regardless of whether they come from a sergeant or your shift manager at the Taco Bell. Live with it.

If your shift manager tells you to do something against your judgement or your ethics, you can always quit. You can't quit the army, and you can't refuse to do what they tell you. The worst things done by humans have always been done under orders.

Personally, I believe I am responsible for what I do, regardless of who tells me to do it. When you volunteer yourself into a coercive situation, you have handed your soul over to another's judgement. Maybe you think the people you take orders from are going to be good caretakers of your will and your soul, but that's one hell of a risk. Do you really know them that well? Do you even know who the hell they are? It's a long chain of command, and in any situation it's hard to know where it ends... do they even tell you where the command comes from? Do they ever tell you why? Are you willing to live blind?

When you spend your time playing games and doing busywork this doesn't much matter. I wouldn't bet on irrelevence anymore, though.

Re:Peace Corp

[Ian Bicking]

Those caught doing unethical or downright criminal acts are held accountable. Think Mi Lai or Nuremburg.

Funny you should mention My Lai. From this article [disinfo.com]:

The My Lai massacre. On March 16, 1968, US soldiers from the Americal Division slaughtered 347 civilians--primarily old men, women, children, and babies--in the Vietnamese village of My Lai 4 (pronounced, very appropriately, as "me lie"). The grunts also engaged in torture and rape of the villagers.

Around six months later, a soldier in the 11th Light Infantry Brigade--known among the men as "the Butcher's Brigade"--wrote a letter telling of widespread killing and torturing of Vietnamese civilians by entire units of the US military (he did not specifically refer to My Lai). The letter was sent to the general in charge of 'Nam and trickled down the chain of command to Major Colin Powell, a deputy assistant chief of staff at the Americal Division, who was charged with investigating the matter and formulating a response.

After a desultory check--which consisted mainly of investigating the soldier who wrote the letter, rather than his allegations--Powell reported that everything was hunkey-dory. There may be some "isolated incidents" by individual bad seeds, but there were no widespread atrocities. He wrote: "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." The matter was closed.

To this day, we might not know about the carnage at My Lai if it hadn't been for another solider who later wisely sent a letter to his Congressman. (Twenty-five years later Powell gave an interview in which he not only failed to condemn the massacre but seemed to excuse it.)

Though some of my faith in humanity was restored when I heard a historian note that by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were refused en masse to run bombing missions over North Vietnam, having destroyed all plausible military targets. (The military is working hard to make sure something like that can't happen again, e.g., military drones)

What bothers me about the military is there is no accountability when it comes to its past. What happened to the people who ordered LSD testing on soldiers? What happened to the people who used chemical warfare in Vietnam (Agent Orange)? What about the person who wrote the manual to teach the Latin American soldiers to torture? What does it mean that someone who tried to cover up My Lai has become Secretary of State? I don't know what has become of all the past military criminals, but it doesn't seem like much -- and anyone who joins the military now doesn't really know what they are going to be asked to do, or what the ultimate intentions of the leaders are. But past performance gives a pretty damn good idea.

And what you do in the military isn't about stupid shit like illegal monopolies. You can do wrong on a scale not normally possible in our everyday lives. Let's be honest: you can do evil. And you might not even realize it... when you flip the switch that drops the bomb, do you know if your cause is really just? Do you know who you are killing? Are you ready to kill a child? Are you ready to kill a mother? Because the military is killing a lot of children and mothers these days, and if the bombs start falling on Baghdad, the number of innocent dead is going to skyrocket, no one can deny it. Are you ready to be part of that killing machine?

It's one thing to bet your own life on a cause, but the military gave up that a while ago -- American soldiers die in accidents, not battle. Now they're betting other people's lives on it. The moral weight of killing is far heavier than the moral weight of dying. I'm not a Christian man, but I have great respect for the teachings of Jesus -- I think we all know on which side of the bomb he'd be on when it falls from the plane, and I think we'd all know which person would receive his blessings.

Re:Peace Corp

[schlach]

+1 Insightful. There's just way too many interesting discussions on this article to sit and moderate, though.

Though some of my faith in humanity was restored when I heard a historian note that by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were refused en masse to run bombing missions over North Vietnam, having destroyed all plausible military targets.

Sorta like what some Israeli officers are doing in Palestine [seruv.org.il].

(The military is working hard to make sure something like that can't happen again, e.g., military drones)

Yes, there is the geek "contribution". Sigh. It would perhaps be better for the world, if not necessarily for each nation's military might, if all the World's geeks motivated to develop better weapons were to instead enlist. If nothing else, it might at least put a face on the death and suffering caused by the previous generation's "defense" geeks, rather than making the decision to kill a less human one.

With regards to the parent, I would agree that you are ultimately responsible for every action you take. Having "orders" is a dodge. My advice would be to join no military or organization that would issue you orders that you would feel uncomfortable refusing, should they conflict with your own judgement. Lend your skills and judgement to your employer, whomever it should be. Never give up your judgement, or become a tool for others to do evil.

I'm always reminded of the Allies and the Germans, at the signing of the Armistice at the end of WWI, getting up out of the trenches and meeting each other in No Man's Land for congratulations and revelry. Why didn't they do the same ten minutes earlier? Because the orders to kill were still coming in, and the order for peace had not yet arrived. How odd.

I believe there are very few people fighting wars that want to be fighting wars. The real motivation is coming from the top, the orders of people who aren't involved in combat. Everyone else is praying for peace, but have been stirred by a sense of duty to compromise their judgement in the service of the war mongers. Again, what an odd thing to value more than life itself.

Re:Peace Corp[s]

[jonathanweaver]

Everything written up to this point has assumed you are a US citizen. If that's true, read on.

If you simply want to travel and do good in a tangibly fruitful way, join the US Peace Corps. My cousin did this and actually speaks well of it *after* getting so sick she had to leave early. You get a really solid lifeline in case you suddenly require medical attention or quick evacuation. Almost everyone will respect what you did, regardless of their national, political, and/or philosophical background. And the experience lasts a lifetime, usually in a positive way.

If you want to do good and (also) find out lots about who/what you are, join the US Army. I guarantee this experience too will last a lifetime; but it might not be so sweet. You'll find out things about yourself, and about people in general, that don't surface during the medi[c]ated experience most of us accept as everyday life.

Now that I've exposed some of my own biases, let's explore a bit of reasoned counterpoint to some of Ian Bicking's writings:

----------------

> by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were [sic] > refused en masse to run bombing missions over > North Vietnam

Surprising this assertion is. I've reviewed a fair number of the primary documents without coming across anything to support this observation. I'm aware of at least two US Navy fliers who got courtmartialed for not following orders whilst in the aeroplane; but their crime was deviation from course and an unauthorized weapons release, not a mission refusal. Can you recall which historian made this claim/when/where/to whom/citing what?

> having destroyed all plausible military targets

The question of what makes a target 'military' is the subject of numerous thick books. A restrictive definition would have precluded, for instance, turning out the lights in Ho Chi Minh City. But Operation LINEBACKER doing that, and things like that, brought the North to the negotiating table at a time when they were already correctly confident that they would win the war. Whether or not you accept that US intervention was morally right, it's hard to argue that bloodshed is presumptively preferable to negotiation. (The same argument applies, more recently, to Kosovo/Belgrade/Yugoslavia.)

> the people who used chemical warfare in Vietnam > (Agent Orange)

Orange was used *as* a defoliant. There were technicians who knew how toxic it was, but it's not clear that the decisionmakers in Vietnam did. MAC-V also dropped Orange on its own troops -- difficult to reconcile with a desire for victory, if the release authority meant to employ it as a chemical weapon.

> Because the military is killing a lot of > children and mothers these days

Really? Where? Are you referring to the human shields whom Saddam voluntold they'd go stand next to the air defence systems that were about to start shooting at US and British pilots?

> It's one thing to bet your own life on a cause, > but the military gave up that a while ago -- > American soldiers die in accidents, not battle.

US soldiers do die in battle. The US Army has had some success in reducing the numbers, but a dispassionate review of US military history over the last, say, twenty years reveals that US soldiers died in battle in Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan. The US Army's deployment to Albania in 'support' of the Kosovo Air Campaign killed US soldiers only in accidents. It also killed zero persons of any other nation, since it never executed a combat mission.

> Now they're betting other people's lives on it.

No, they're betting *their* lives on their Army's ability to protect them. And they know an uncomfortable lot about how finite that ability is. Soldiers in battle generally do not fight for causes. They fight for survival, frequently for the survival of their buddies, occasionally for a charismatic leader. Citizens who enlist might do so for a specific cause, but more often than not they do so for a complex combination of reasons. Patriotism is usually one of these.

> The moral weight of killing is far heavier than > the moral weight of dying.

Yeah. True. If you aren't comfortable with the fact that you'll remember the nameless people you killed for the rest of your life, stay away from the US Army. There are nations that win wars, but no soldier ever won a war. All the soldiers in a war lose something. But until a universal substitute for war comes along, the US will need something that can fight one and win. Leave that job to those who have reflected on their willingness to do that specific thing. If you want to die for a cause, just write a lucid note and cut your throat. The US Army is a lot harder and more effective than suicide.

> I think we all know on which side of the bomb > [Jesus Christ woul]d be on [sic] when it falls > from the plane, and I think we'd all know which > person would receive his blessings

Oh yeah, the guy who beat the temple moneychangers with a stick hard enough to drive them all away? Yeah, that was definitely a guy who would shrink from employing force in a righteous cause. The teachings of Christ emphasize personal responsibility and explicitly de-emphasize the manner of one's death. Do you really mean to claim that an 'ethnic cleanser' killed whilst shelling civilians would be preferentially blessed by Christ *because* he died from a US munition? Although Christ's blessings are denied to no repentant sinner, there's no basis in scripture for such an exceptional claim.

----------

Please take to heart bugnuts' advice to get IN WRITING the recruiter's promise about where you'll be assigned and what you'll do.

Finally, regarding kasparov's comment in this thread:

> I can attest that taking the "ultimate step" and > disobeying orders can be a very unpleasant > experience. One's rights under the UCMJ are > significantly less than one's rights under the > US Constitution.

He's right. The entire US DoD reflexively punishes defiance. Paradoxically, those US citizens who pledge themselves to defend the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution are less free than those they defend.

Orders are fundamentally about trust. The soldier issuing them believes they'll get done. The soldier receiving them believes they're right. When this breaks down, so does the US Army. If trust is at issue, then *before* it breaks down, the issuer and the receiver owe a frank discussion to each other and to the Constitution they pledged they'd defend. If you're not ready to have that discussion, face to face, with a guy who can put you in jail, don't join the US Army. Sometimes it really *can* feel like an Army of One.

There are easy answers in the US Army, just as there are in 'everyday' US life. You can keep your head down, learn exactly what is required, do it as well as you can, and ignore/forget the inconvenient remainder. But if you are a geek, your predilections will force you along a harder, more rigorous, and ultimately more illuminating path. This is no more a fact of the US Army than of US 'everyday' life; but in the US Army both the situations and the outcomes will matter more to you. The answers you find might not be comfortable, or even unambiguous; but they will be true.

Also you'll have lots less bandwidth :-)

Re:Peace Corp

[kasparov]

As someone who spent 30 days in solitary confinement for disobeying orders in the Marine Corps (mainly because I am a stubborn geek who isn't good a taking orders that I disagree with--yes I know it was a really bad idea to enlist in the Marine Corps as an Infantryman if I can't take orders...the recruiter called on a particularly interesting day in my life--we'll call it a "learning experience"), I can attest that taking the "ultimate step" and disobeying orders can be a very unpleasant experience. One's rights under the UCMJ are significantly less than one's rights under the US Constitution.

In regards to the job analogy, you don't get sent to jail for deciding to quit your civilian job.

Re:Peace Corp

[liloldme]

Those caught doing unethical or downright criminal acts are held accountable

You must be living in a fantasy world, or are just being fucking naive.

There's a reason why the US wants to exempt its citizens from international justice system [amnestyusa.org]. The crimes committed by the US military forces are plentiful [mediamonitors.net], yet there seems very little accountability to be going on in the US.

Re:Peace Corp

[Chundra]

That's the spirit. Hey, I just bought an American flag sticker today, but I didn't put it on my bumper. Nah, that's not appropriate for my country, instead I put it smack dab in the middle of the gas cap on my BMW. God Bless America!

Re:Peace Corp

[Meefan]

Gee, tough choice: tell my grandkids I was boring, or be dead. ;) Dave

Re:Peace Corp

[King_TJ]

So wait a minute? Given the two options, it's automatically far better for someone to join the army than the peace corps?

Nah, you're entitled to your opinion - but I think that's completely "apples to oranges". The Peace Corps. seems to thrive on individuals who like to teach or train others. There's a lot of education going on there. The Army, on the other hand, tends to attract those who lack direction in their lives. Perhaps someone who just "needs a change" and hate the routine they're stuck in. But if you want to teach people, the Army isn't the place to be. You're there to pretty much "shut up and learn" and then "do, based on what we told you".

Freedom sure isn't free, but it's also a fact that if you end up dead, you absolutely lost all of your own freedom.

Also, I know this is just a generalization - but an awful lot of people I knew who joined the military came out as sort of "empty shells" of the people they once were. True, they might have been washed clean of their bad habits they used to have -- but they also seemed like their brains got re-loaded with a bunch of indoctrination about the way to be a "real man" in the U.S.A.

There's something eerily "zombie-like" about some of these guys. They're suddenly almost "too polite" and dress a little "too sharp" at any semi-formal occasion. Many times, they suddenly get a strong urge to get married, have kids, and become a cookie-cutter image of the "family man". I know you can't really fault any of this. On the surface, it looks like the guys really "cleaned up their act" -- but it's a little unnatural. I don't think they came to these lifestyle conclusions and changes purely on their own.....

Re:Peace Corp

[yellowcat]

Having been one of those people that went into a military environment quasi-normal and coming out shattered... This depends on you. Entirely on you, and on nobody else. If you thrive in a high-pressure environment, where rigid structure is present, good for you. If you are physically and mentally capable of joining the military, and accepting that when you joing the military you will not only give up substantial rights and freedoms but may be called to risk your own life or take another person's, then you might be a good fit. It is difficult, and anybody who has ever been there will agree, but you could get great things out of it. If you are a free-spirit, and orders that you don't understand don't sit well with you, if you object to use of force, then don't go. If you know in your heart you won't fit in, don't go into the military.

Re:Peace Corp

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well..that sounds good, in theory. But the PC is actually an elitist organization that is vurrry picky about who they take on. Unless you're part of the Establishment, have a sterling academic record from a small univeristy, or have certain other advantages [peacecorps.gov], you're likely wasting your time by beginning the PC application process [peacecorps.gov].

The entire enrollment of the Peace Corps is around 6,500. By contrast, Harvard has around 18,000. You think you can beat those odds [216.239.53.100]?

Re:Peace Corp

[giminy]

Peace corps is good, but just be careful where you go.

A little story.

My aunt joined the peace corps and was teaching in Rwanda. Rebels came and took over her school, killed all her students while she was in the room, and took her hostage (they didn't want to kill an American). She was then marched around the country for ~3 months. She managed to escape, but when she returned to the US she disappeared. She ended up committing suicide some months later.

Obviously this kind of thing is rare. The peace corps is pretty good about paying attention to "hotspots" and avoiding sending people to an area in turmoil, but just pay attention to where you go. Open up some newspapers and see what's going on in the country, read about their government, political parties, any government opposition that exists. Too many people think "Oh, I'm an American so nothing bad will happen to me when I go wandering the world." Of course, my aunt's situation probably would have turned out differently today. Maybe the Rwandans would have killed her? Hard to say. Just be careful.

As for me, I was in the same situation, so I decided to go to grad school in Germany, studying computer science. So far I'm pretty keen on it. Schools run very differently over here than they do in the US (they're a lot less like high school and a lot more like college should be, imho). It's pretty fun to learn a new language and meet people from a former communist country (yep, my school is in former East Germany). Living over here is hella cheap, too (I spent $1000 to move here, and that's including the plane ticket, train ticket, and hostel for a few nights so I could find my own flat). So don't let money scare you!

$.02

Re:Peace Corp

[Anonymous Coward]

Join Aiesec exchange program

http://us.aieseconline.net

Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better

[ceejayoz]

Open source projects don't generally provide many travel opportunities.

Peace Corps

[Sean Clifford]

You may do well to check out the Peace Corps - especially with your language skills. *NOW* is the time for you to travel about and see the world; if you put it off you probably won't get around to it until retirement.

How fucking depressing

[NineNine]

if you put it off you probably won't get around to it until retirement.


WHY? Why does everybody have this mindset that there's no choice after college except to get a boring job in a cubicle, get married, pop out kids, buy a big house, and hopefully, have enough time and money at the end to sit on your ass for a few years? That's so fucking depressing. You've only got one shot at life, and it may not be long. You never know. If you think that the rest of your life will be so bad that you won't get to do what you want to do (or at least, not for another 40 years), then you need to rethink things. Hell, just watch Fight Club a few times and *think* about it.

- From a person living a very unusual, fun, and rewarding life (ie: not a lemming)

Re:How fucking depressing

[geekd]

Amen, brother!

So many people get trapped into doing what they are "supposed" to do. Society pressures you into it. RESIST!

There's nothing wrong with marrige, children and home ownership, if that's what *you* want.

Think for yourself.

Hell, I'm married, and I'm in escrow on my first house right now. No kids, though, and we probably won't have any. No patience for 'em.

I spent almost 10 years trying to be a rock star before I got tired of being poor and got a real job. If I'd never tried I would have regretted it for the rest of my boring ass life.

Travel the world, dude. Travel for as long as you like. There will always be a job for a man of your skills when your ready (if your ready) to settle down. Jesus, 3 languages and how many tech skills? Write your own ticket.

Do what you want. But make sure it's what *you* want, and not what you're *supposed* to want. That's all I'm saying.

Re:How fucking depressing

[NineNine]

Hell, I did it backwards. Had the good job and marriage right out of college. I was "right on track" for the "good life". After about 6 years of that, I said fuck it. It wasn't worth it. Now I don't have a "traditional" job at all. I'm happily married, but to a great chick who thinks the same way I do. She doesn't have a "traditional" job either. We're doing just fine. No kids, we get to travel plenty, and we're pushing 30. Neither of us will ever do the traditional route ever again, and we couldn't be happier. And a little secret... not doing the traditional job, kids, big house thing doesn't mean that you can't still make money, if that's your thing, either. I'm not saying that to buck the trend you gotta get covered in tattoos, join a band, and paint all day, and go around all day saying "fuck the system". There are thousands of different ways to live. I run a couple of businesses (because that's what I like to do). No cubicle or commute for me! I have a good friend who's going to law school so that the can practice law off of a boat in the Caribbean. I know a guy who does nothing but restore vintage cars for a living. I know people who do nothing but run massive porn sites and work from home in their undies. Jeez, there are so many possibilities, and life is so short, I *hate* to see people wasting time by doing what's expected of 'em. Think about it. Do you wanna wake up one day, 65 years old, and think "what'd I do for the last 45 years? Well, I saved up a nice nest egg"?? That's insane. Hell, so many people don't even make it that long. What if you get hit by a bus when you're 35? What do you have to show for it all? A nice suit and tie that you can be buried in? A bunch of people saying that "he was a nice co-worker"? Or "he had a really nice car"? Fuck it man. Life doesn't end when you graduate from college... Life is just beginning!

Ok, now I really do think that I gotta go watch Fight Club again.

Rock on

[TheOnlyCoolTim]

Hells yeah...

Even in high school I see these kids who spend all their fucking time playing an instrument, joining the debate team, being in the school play, playing three varsity sports, etc ad infinitum et ad nauseam... There's no way in hell they can actually *ENJOY* doing all that stuff and having no free time whatsoever, but they want to have a big shitload to put down on their college apps, becuase their worth as a person and future happiness in the world is decided by whether or not they get into one of the Ivies.

If I ever worked for a college admissions office, I'd take all these applicants who are defined as a person by their impressive list of Extracurricular Activities, and shitlist them.

Do stuff you *ENJOY* with your life. Fuck all else.

Tim

You are very, very wrong.

[raehl]

I did pretty much everything in high school except music and drama, and I loved it. I got to do some really cool stuff, event went to DC for a week and met a buncha real politicians. (They look like real people up close!)

Now, don't get me wrong, I spent my fair share of time in front of the computer too, but if oyu'er not doing sports, or part of student council, or on the debate team - what are you doing with your free time? Drinking?

Frankly, I had a lot more fun in high school than my friends who spent most of their time high.

Oh, and there's one other very good reason to get into college:

I got to go to Europe for a YEAR because I got into college and knew some German.

Re:How fucking depressing

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well, there's a downside to it, as well. Hedonism is fine, but when you're pushing forty and you still haven't heeded the biological urge to reproduce, you'll feel regret. Besides, if you wait that long to have children, you'll be sixty by the time they get out of school. Hedonism inevitably leads to ennui. Friends move on. Passing yourself on to the next generation is the only way to achieve immortality.

Of course, YMMV. I was lucky enough to have a generally positive family, who actually gets together on the holidays and vacations together once a year at grandpa's expense. I can understand how those who had crappy families would want to stay as far away from that experience as possible by immersion in pleasure-seeking.

Re:How fucking depressing

[freeweed]

Passing yourself on to the next generation is the only way to achieve immortality.

I'd say someone like Einstein, Newton, or Plato is far more 'immortal' than my parents will be just because of my existence. Being remembered for doing something difficult is a hell of a lot more rewarding (not like it matters, as you're dead anyway) than simply doing what 95% of the population can do. Breeding isn't exactly hard (my apologies to the infertile folks out there).

If passing on your genes is that vital, you can do it a lot more efficiently, and volumnously, by donating to a sperm bank.

Re:How fucking depressing

[Parsec]

Well said, sir!

To Han Onymous (and everyone else):
Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living." I don't think he meant us to just examine it once and decide. You have to examine every day and ask if this is the path you want to be on. You have to always be open to new ideas. If you're not growing, you're decaying.

Yes, you are being cynical

[kvn299]

I served in the Peace Corps in the mid-90s. Although I do admit these are extraordinarily dangerous times, there were plenty of dangers in the world during that time as well. In addition, I recently spent two years traveling all over kingdom come. There were lots of dangers, but what I gained by traveling far outweighed the risks involved.

Upon returning home to the US after Peace Corps, I never felt more unsafe in my entire life. In Cameroon, my host country, my neighbors looked out for me. If something bad was going to happen it would most likely be someone pointing a gun at me and taking my money. If you did what was asked, then you were OK. They weren't doing it for kicks.

In the US, my chances of dying in a car crash were much higher compared to the chances of that happening in Cameroon. Or someone might break into my house and shoot me just for the hell of it... etc. etc. Have you been reading the papers lately???

These times *are* dangerous. But you shouldn't let fear prevent you from experiencing everything the world has to offer. A little common sense during travel goes A LONG LONG WAY in increasing your safety.

Go live and stop hiding in your house.

Re:Yes, you are being cynical

[Ian Peon]

I spent 4 years in the Navy, 3 of them living on a ship.

On the ship, we visited Alcupulco, Panama, Hong Kong, Singapore, India (forget the port name), Newcastle and Freemantle (Australia), Abu Dhabi and Dhubi (United Arab Emirates), Oman (again forget the port name) and several US ports.

Most dangerous port I've been to: San Diego - where we had one of our guys shot at a night club, and a couple others mugged.

Re:Yes, you are being cynical

[GringoGoiano]

The world's still a very safe place. A cheeseburger-eating habit is many times more likely than a terrorist (overeas or at home) or a sniper to cause you real harm.

We make these little choices every day that have much more impact on our health and well-being than do terrorists:

• choice in diet
• lack of exercise
• unsafe sexual practices
• drug use
• operating vehicles and machinery under the influence
• snowboarding and fast motorcycles (hey, some risks are worth taking).

Americans want to be invulnerable, and then to blame others when things go wrong. The sniper in D.C. has probably shaved less person-years off residents' lives directly than have residents themselves through their own reactions to the crisis.

This week's Economist has an article "The Logic of Irrational Fear", examining American behavior in the face of risk. Check it out. They maintain that for a short time, the sniper has raised the overall chances of being murdered in the area by several times. But this increased risk must be short-lived, and Americans and their freedom-preserving media are overreacting to the situation.

Re:Peace Corps

[imr]

Just yesterday i was saying to my wife:
"I'm so glad I could travel around the wrld when I was younger. It looks like 20 years old people won't be able o do it before long."
On the other hand, my wife had to flee her country as a child because of another country politics deciding people like her parents(artists) needed to be persecuted. So she told me that she would have loved to stay at home to discover her own land.
This I also did. Travel through my country by bike. It's so different from being a tourist. People get in touch with you because they see you take the time to actually meet them.

It's always bad somewhere

[sjbe]

Fact of life. There are always some parts of the world at any given time you want to avoid. So avoid them. The world is a big place with lots of interesting opportunities. What you hear on the evening news are just all the "man bites dog" stories. They make it sound worse than it really is. Yes, someone was injured in some part of the world recently. Not very likely it was or will be you.

Get out. See the world. Enjoy yourself. Have some stories to tell your kids. (and maybe a few you keep for yourself...)

Hate to say it...

[Goonie]

But if you drive a car, you're much more likely to die from *that* than you are from terrorism. Not to mention the fact that September 11 demonstrates that terrorists can just as easily kill you at home as abroad.

Re:Peace Corps

[Wyatt Earp]

Now is just as safe as before, as long as you stay on a mostly beaten path.

I went to Isreal during the first intifata and in '94 right after the Jewish settler shot up the mosque. I stayed in the far north of Isreal when Hezbollah was all fired up. It was safe. Honestly, even in the recent bombing frenzy in Israel it's still a 1 in 100,000 chance of being geeked.

If one has some common sense about traveling and where not to go, it's pretty safe to travel the world.

Don't go to Afghanistan, Iraq, rural southern Phillipines, rural former Eastern-Bloc nation, rural former Soviet Republic, don't get off I-90 between Spokane and Missoula at night, or if you don't look Aryan, don't go to rural Columbia, don't hook up with Shining Path leaders in Peru.

If one has some common sense, don't worry about it.

I stayed on the beach in Tel Aviv for 3 weeks, people told me not to do it, but if you take some precautions and avoid gettin' plastered, it's safe as anything.

Terror can happen anywhere on Earth. From Finland to Belfast to gas stations in the DC metro area to a night club in Bali, a 85% Hindu island.

The secret is to be careful out there.

Re:Peace Corps

[illusion_2K]

Although I can certainly understand that sentiment, in some cases the opposite is very true.

My experience in the matter happened this summer. I was working in Zambia and took several trips down to Zimbabwe during all of the land reformation madness. While all my friends and family back in Canada thought I was nuts, I ended up having amazing trips each and every time. Apart from the fact that Zimbabwe is a beautiful country and the people are warm and hospitable, the political instability lead to a black market on American currency (the exchange rate was being regulated by the government). So, while the official exchange rate for US dollars was officially about 75:1, the unofficial rate was somewhere between 400 and 1000 to 1. In the end, this difference translated directly into purchasing power for foreigners and I was consequently able to do stuff that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

Other than a little anticipation the first time I went there, I never felt in any danger at all. As long as you use your good judgement then chances are you'll be fine. That being said, the social and political issues there are immense, and it will be decades before they recover from everything.

Re:Peace Corps

[kbarnesx]

The world is neither overly dangerous nor completely safe. If you want to find out just EXACTLY how dangerous the world is, pick up a copy of The World's Most Dangerous Places. Odd's are, in almost any country in the world, if you're gonna die it's gonna be in a car crash. The Peace Corp won't send you to any of the 10 or so countries where that's not the case (Columbia, Chechnya, Burundi, Angola, Algeria, Somalia, and Afghanistan being the truly dangerous ones). In fact they won't send you to the next most dangerous tear below that either.

While not a Peace Corp volunteer, I heartily recommend this approach. I've worked with the Peace Corp in both Africa and South America and it is one of the best organizations you can actually get in to. What's more it will give you enough free time and money to see more than just the host country. Be prepared to be a science teacher :)

Re:Peace Corps

[SmilingMonk]

I recently re-learned for myself just how much blather and spreading of fear there is on TV and Radio here in the US. I didn't remember just how much it formed my view of the world. Until...

... that is, I went on a much needed vacation. No TV. No Radio. Just people. Overseas travel. Smiling with other humans. Talking with those who knew English. Many photographs. Great foods. Wonderful times.

In that situation, what mattered the economy? What mattered what Bill Gates was worth? Fear prevents correct action if we let it seep too deep into who we have become.

My $0.02.

- Peace

yup, you're being paranoid

[fantomas]

I think you're being paranoid ('Latent IT'). Tell us the places you've visited and when you found them the most dangerous.

At the grand old age of 35 years old, last year, I packed in my job and bought a round the world ticket. UK- India (near the Pakistan border) - Singapore - Thailand - Cambodia - Australia - New Zealand - USA - back to UK. Best thing I've ever done. Forget your alma mater, travel is the university of life. Wish I'd been able to work in one of those countries, the other posters are right about trying to pick up a job and stay for a while.

I only ever got into a scary situation once -yup, you guessed it, in the USA (three cop cars pulled me over on a desert road in Texas and pulled their guns out and accused me of smuggling drugs). Only time anybody pulled a gun on me.

Ok so bad things happen sometimes everywhere in the world but hey I can laugh about the scary bits now and I had some damn fine times that I'll be able to bore the grandkids with.

Just remember...

[sterno]

If travelling the world and having problems, just remember this one important phrase:

"Don't shoot, I'm Candian!"

Re:Just remember...

[SmoothOperator]

This will not work. They will immediately recognize you as an American. You have to say "I am CanAdian!"

Re:Just remember...

[red5]

It's an old American tradition to make a fool of yourself and country while abroad. Just like when JFK delared to the people of Berlin that he was a doughnut.

Re: Visiting the Middle East

[Christopher Whitt]

My parents are born and bred in North America. They are high school teachers. My dad just retired and my mom just took a job with a college. In Qatar.

Sure, it's right on the Persian Gulf and all their friends are worried, but they feel guilty because they have it so good over there. Good pay, good work environment, and a quick weekend trip takes you to India or to the pyramids.

I'm saving my money to visit them next year.

Latin America

[Micah]

Right. Latin America truly rocks. Great people, great sights, good food, inexpensive. And it's reasonably safe if you don't do anything stupid. Not to mention the fact that you just need to know Spanish to get around most of it.

I recommend Guatemala or Ecuador to start. They're really easy to travel in and have much to recommend them.

Traveling the world as a geek, cheap style

[Telastyn]

/server irc.dalnet.net /join #france /join #japan /join #katmandu
.
.
.

Re:Traveling the world as a geek, cheap style

[beta21]

Or boot up Everquest. There are lot of places to see there.

And you can meet "interesting" people and learn how to make gizillions of pp, then you never have to worry about a double mortgage....ohoh I've got reality and fantasy mixed up again haven't I?

Yeah i tell you what you can do.

[Anonymous Coward]

Join a terrorist network, they seem to be just about everywhere nowadays, and they pay for everything you need.

Have fun!

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a good place to start looking: JobsAbroad.com [jobsabroad.com] (No, I don't work for them)

GeekCorps, teaching ESL

[Brento]

The first obvious answer everybody's going to suggest is GeekCorps [geekcorps.org], but it'll also depend on the languages you speak. I'd suggest looking at job postings for large international charitable organizations like the Red Cross - they always need tech help, and being willing to work as a volunteer for room & board only will help your case quite a bit.

Another tip: think about teaching English in the Far East. The job offers are plentiful, you don't need a teaching certificate, and the compensation is quite good. You don't have to speak Japanese or Chinese to get those kinds of positions, either. I've had a few friends do it for several summers, and had nothing but great things to say.

Teaching ESL in Taiwan

[That_Dan_Guy]

I was in the same boat some years ago. I decided I would travel the world.

I settled on Taiwan for my base of operations. The list of 3 I considered was Japan, Korea and Taiwan. I chose Taiwan because of the people I had met from these 3 places, Taiwanese were the easiest and most friendly.

What to do in Taiwan? Teach English to start. During the summer I gauarntee you will have people come up to you on the street and beg you to teach English for $15-20 bucks an hour. This sounds great, and summer is good to start becuase you'll get classes all day long and into the evening. After that it is mostly evenings, unless you can get in at a Kindergarden.

Kindergardens are the best. You can get 2-4 hours a morning of just playing with 4-9 year olds. Don't knock it until you've tried it. This age group is by far the easiest to teach. Teaching 10-13 year olds is a real pain, and involves lots of yelling becuase the schools usually cram 20-30 into a room that is barely double the size of your standard dorm room (can anyone say "Firehazard?" Oh wait, the fire inspector is coming, quick! take half the desks outside and hide them! (seriously, this happens a lot in Taiwan, along with the passing of red envolopes)).

If you have your degree, you are set to get yourself settled in Taiwan. Teaching English and finding a place to stay are your first priorities.

Now, after you are set up and find that you hate kids, or more likely hate the people running the schools, go find a job writing Techinical manuals. ASUS is up in a low rent, but fairly nice, area. Big building, has a swimming pool you can use after hours. The guy running the Documentation department is real cool, and promises to shield his team from company politics. I turned down the job at the time because they weren't paying in anything but promises of stock options (not a year later and the bubble burst, so I do feel vindicated).

Trend Micro has a good department, and working there could get you back to the 'States into a real job. I turned that one down becuase the offer came after I had bought myself and my wife plane tickets to come back. Would have been fun. Lots of oportunity there.

There was a Graphics company a friend of mine worked at. He had a lot of fun there, but complained about management stupidity. He quit, came back to the 'states and got hired by the US department. Sorry to say I lost track of him (Dave, if you're around and reading this try my yahoo account, its still my primary acount)

Overall, Taiwan was a blast. The first 6 months were hell, trying to learn to teach and deal with culture shock. But it was a wonderful experience. Now I'm teaching MCSE and CCNA classes at a Jr. College in the 'States. Guess I learned to like teaching (wasn't easy to learn, let me tell you)

Teach English

[Anonymous Coward]

Pays fairly well - can be done in lots of different places, etc.

Not necessarily the best job (a friend of mine had a nasty experience in S. Korea, all that stuff you hear about southeast asian kids having huge amounts of respect for their teacher is absolute CRAP) but its something to do to foot the bill for travelling. Usually they expect someone with a BA, but a BEng/BSC/MSc / whatever you've got should be fine (another friend of mine is teaching English in Japan right now - and I met a Scotsman on a train from Prague to Frankfurt who was teaching english in Germany)...

Helps to bone up on your grammar though, but for a trilingual like yourself, that shouldn't be a problem.

Good luck!

Re:Teach English

[EldritchGeek]

I strongly agree. The good thing about teaching English is that it can be much easier to land this kind of work. Some places it pays well, others it doesn't, but it is an industry where there will be a strong preference for native speakers. Also, visa issues are more easily resolved than if you're trying to do tech work.

I taught English in Taiwan for a year, loved it, and eventually found additional bits of work that drew more on my tech background. By the way, I did find a lot of respect for teachers, but most of my students were adults.

Like the knight said: "Choose Wisely..."

[gregwbrooks]

The best advice I can give: Choose where you go and what you do based on your values rather than your skills.

All things being equal, you'll put more into -- and get more out of -- an experience where you're supporting something you really believe in, even if you're not using all of your technical skills. If you can scratch both your geek itch and your volunteer itch at the same time, great -- but if you're only going to scratch one, strike a blow for something you feel passionately about.

Mother Earth, Mother Board is a good read

[JeffGB]

The Wired Magazine article Mother Earth, Mother board [wired.com] is an article written by a hacker/tourist.
I've always liked reading this article, and it lists neat places to visit

How to see the world...

[surfcow]

... accept a job where "very little travel is involved".

That did it for me.

aloha,
=brian

Armed Forces

[chunkwhite86]

Try the Army, Navy or Air Force. I have many friends who are part of the US Armed Services and have traveled the World quite extensively in just a few short years.

Re:Armed Forces

[bomb_number_20]

I spent three years in the military. I was gone a lot (approximately 5-6 months out of the year) but rarely saw anything more than swamps, mountains, wooded areas and jungles.

There were some really cool things. My favorite was looking at stuff through night-vision goggles- especially the stars. Animals were cool,too- it was sort of like they knew you weren't really a threat because you can't see in the dark so they come out all around you. Another fun thing that you get to do in the army is board and ride passenger jets with automatic weapons. ;)

Anyway, if you want to see the world (that is, cities and local people) without having to kill and bomb everything you meet then the army (or any military service for that matter) is the wrong choice. The Air Force might be better, but from friends I've talked to, if you REALLY want to get out and go places the Navy can't be beat.

Those guys go from one end of the globe to the other and get free time to wander around and explore- something we really didn't.

I'm guessing, though, that military service isn't what this guy is looking for.

Try This:

[Geminatron]

You're looking for "Engineers Without Borders":
here a few of their addresses:

http://ewob.colorado.edu
EWOB USA

http://www.ewb-isf.org
EWB CANADA

http://www.isf-france.org
EWB France = Ingénieurs sans Frontières (ISF)

There are lots of other local and national EWB groups, a google search should find em.

Well...

[NanoGator]

..you could join the Army and visit the Middle East. Sunny skies, high tech environment, and the lucky winner can play a game of "Whack the Laden"!

*hopes that joke wasn't in too bad of taste, midly bad taste is acceptable*

Re:Well...

[unicron]

Hell yeah, man. Where the hell else are you going to get to program AND have a gun attached to your belt?

Re:Well...

[bcemoli]

Texas?

Re:Well...

[_ph1ux_]

ARMY: (Army of one FPS v1.0)

set sidearm = 1
set MaxAmmo = 9999
set AllowCamping = 1
set RespawnCount = 0

No thanks!

NGO's that want geeks.

[kapurp]

Try geek corps [geekcorps.org] or Engineers without borders [ewb-isf.org] or if you're Canadian you can apply to Net Corps [netcorps-cyberjeunes.org].

Slack

[Anonymous Coward]

Get some credit cards and slack. I'm serious. As a highly educated geek, you can probably get 10-20k in unsecured credit by filling out some forms on a web site.

Then, choose some country that's cheap to live in and go. Asian countries give you the nice added bonus of being able to generate an income stream readily by illegally teaching English. For example, in Taiwan you can teach English for $25/hr and meals cost about $3 each.

As an added bonus, you may find in some foreign countries women find you irresistible. Which is not so bad.

Finally, when the economy recovers you will be making gobs of money and not have enough time to spend it efficiently. The memories will last forever.

Options

[geek]

Is it traveling you wish to do? Seeing the world is great but I get enjoyment out of seeing the immediate world around me.

I've had two friends join the peace corps, one loved it the other hated. like most things it's about perspective. I would love to see Ireland, England and many others but it's come to my attention I have neglected to view my own country, my own city even.

I was going to join the Navy but realized military life wasn't worth it to me. The peace corps are out because I need money. So lately I've been thinking about helping others at youth centers in my area. It seems to be much more rewarding, not just for myself but for the kids.

With your skills you could be a great asset to the children. Rather than travel the world and look at the pretty sites, perhaps consider sticking close to home and getting more involved with local programs. It almost seems safer now too considering the bomb in Bali.

Articles on the topic

[Teribaen]

There's an ongoing series of articles at kuro5hin on this exact topic.

first part [kuro5hin.org] second part [kuro5hin.org]

Obvious..

[IamTheRealMike]

What can a skillful geek (electrical, electronical and software engineer, speaks three languages fluently) like me do to see the world

Teaching English is always good....... ;)

Re:Obvious..

[Hunterdvs]

me fail english, that's unpossible!

Go Back to School

[Lokni]

I would say go back to school. There are programs at various schools, including but not limited to state and private universities, that offer study abroad. Pick your country. I went to Spain this past summer for 2 months on a program to learn Spanish. That was it. Cost was $3600 including room and board and school. After the program was over I spent the next month hooving it around western Europe. With a month railpass, I was able to visit 12 different countries. Stay at hostels which are safe and offer clean, comfortable nightly accomodations for as little as $10 a night. Overall, the trip cost me about $6000. The best part of it was that I was able to get stafford loans to finance almost the entire trip. Nothing like a government gauranteed 3.4% interest loan that you don't have to pay back until you are not taking any more classes.

merchant marine

[Shadow Wrought]

One of my Grandpa's buddies did an around the world tour by getting a cabin aboard a merchant marine ship.

It was super cheap and he got to spend a week or so in all sorts of different port towns. I have no idea whether it would interest you or not, but I contemplated doing it before I met my fiancee.

BTW, the guy who did this was 83!

So you don't necessarily have to do it while you are young;-)

Change your plans and save money!

[Ichoran]

Money = flexibility. You have nine months. If flexibility and adventure are important to you, save some now. Whether you end up in the Peace Corps or whatever, it will help give you room to breathe.

Why the hell don't you have any money saved?

[Inoshiro]

An aside:
You're going to be old and infirm someday. Don't believe the lies that you'll actually be able to live off of your government pension (since it started as a senior-vote-buying measure, and will end when it runs out of money or leads to huge defecits once the boomers all retire), because you will be screwed. The first thing you should do is go and buy this book [bookzone.com], then read it. Follow its advice.

Once you have a secure financial base, go ahead and explore the world, get married, etc. Do whatever your heart desires, but do not get started without some money saved away for your retirement, or you will be screwed when you're older.

Back to the question at hand:
If you really speak a variety of languages, see what it takes to get a work visa there. Often it's a lot of work, but it can be really fun to live somewhere for a year and do whatever it is you're skilled at doing (good non-tech ones are teaching english, cooking, bartending, etc). You can't just go to a country and work there legally unless you have a work visa, so be sure to get that squared away first.

Another thing to do would be to save up money, and backpack across Europe (or somewhere else that's population dense). It's fairly easy to do, there are plenty of youth hostels, and transportation between locales is cheap if you hitch-it. Heck, if you're feeling daring, you could even try to do it while carting along a small appliance [amazon.com].

AIESEC

[Anonymous Coward]

The worlds largest student organisation. AIESEC [aiesec.org] is a global network of 50,000 members across more than 83 countries and territories at more than 800 universities world-wide.
AIESEC facilitates international exchange of thousands of students and recent graduates each year. Whether in a paid traineeship or as a volunteer for a non-profit organisation, their experiences abroad will undoubtedly affect them forever.
Behind everything we do is our mission: to contribute to the development of our countries and their people with an overriding commitment to international understanding and co-operation.
Over the years AIESEC has evolved into something that is spirited with endless energy. We, the young people who run this organisation have a hope for something better in the world, and this is a hope that AIESEC tempers with a practical approach.

http://www.aiesec.org [aiesec.org]

What to do..

[Maskirovka]

The choice should be clear...
1) learn to speak three lanuages fluently
2) become a tech god
3) leave school
4) set up your own international smut business
5) PROFIT!

Teach English

[RealAlaskan]

If you LOOK american [1], you should be able to teach English in Taiwan. You could make a bit more than enough to live on, and living somewhere is far better than being a tourist there [2]. My inlaws have been trying to get me to do that, but I'm making significantly better money here. I suspect that you could do the same thing in Japan, and most of the Orient.

If you are looking for technical work which will further your career, things may be a little harder. I know that the big investment banks have operations around the world, and use lots of expensive IT, and lend people between countries at least occasionally. This is a bad time to be looking for that kind of job, though, and if you want to have a life, and see your surroundings, you don't want to work there.

[1] You don't have to BE a native English speaker, just look like one. If you look Chinese, you will have a hard time convincing the locals that you speak proper English, even if you grew up here and speak no Chinese!

[2]If you want to learn about the place, rather than simply see the sights and move on.

Join the Army!

[jheinen]

Join the Army. I'm sure you'll get an opportunity to visit the Middle East.

Soon.

Language is the key

[rholland356]

If you want to see the world, earning your keep as you go, then you'll have to rely on your three fluent languages.

I hope they aren't too modern, for much of the world has yet to catch up. For instance, you might be fluent in Java 1.4, but that won't help you when you are in Perl territory.

I suppose you could travel a ways on COBOL--particularly through Europe--but I'd have to say it is C that will take you around the globe in good fashion.

Robert

I can't believe this-

[purduephotog]

- Hey, it's simple. Really. Book a flight overseas. Pick a return date. Figure out what to do once you get there and just DO stuff. There has GOT to be somet things you'd like to see- Eiffel Tower, Louver, Rome, etc- you know what you WANT to do, so go do it!

I did the same thing, disappeared for a month. Hooked up with total strangers for a couple of days. Drifted apart. Took pictures

No one can make a trip but you- and if it doesn't work out you'll have only your geeky self to blame rather than that 'stupid slashdot crowd'. Figure out what you want out of life and do it, or do you have absolutely no iniative?

I can only speak in negatives...

[I Am The Owl]

But don't do something tech-related. You have the rest of your life ahead of you to do that. Do something you've never done before and probably won't have another chance to. Several people here have suggested that you go to a foreign country and teach English; I concur with this sentiment. It seems like an excellent way to see the world.

All in all, it's not unlike college: do it because it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, not the beginning of the rest of your life.

Go Spooky

[Featureless]

I'll be blunt. My friend, you should consider joining the CIA. You fit their profile perfectly. As you can imagine, they are currently hiring with a vengance.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/employment/ciaeindex.htm

The experience is literally second to none in the world, and in a variety of private industries, CIA is solid gold on a resume.

-David

Re:Go Spooky

[PissingInTheWind]

Comment about joining terrorist: 5, funny.
Comment about joining the CIA: 5, interesting.

Since both do about the same activities, I'd take that as a sign that moderators are once again on crack.

Oil Business

[Lothar]

A friend of mine works as a Service Engineer(mostly software) in Kongsberg Offshore. He travels more than 100 days a year to places all over the world. Malaysia, Germany, Britain, etc, etc. You name it.

Of course you might not have that much time to do any sightseeing. However may places doesn't allow too much overtime abroad and that could be handy.

find a job.....

[rew]

Even when the economy is bad, if you're good you're going to find a job. So, spin a globe, pick a place, and send a bunch of resumes in that direction. Make sure you "live cheap" so that you will be able to fall into a "work 6 months, travel 2 months" schedule, or something like that. Travel a bit around the "work" place as well. Then you should have enough saved to be able to say goodbye, and travel for two months straight. Then find a job again, preferably somewhere else. Repeat 2 or 3 times......

Roger.

Just go.

[GeoNerd]

Working as a bartender? A merchant marine? A volunteer? The Peace Corps? Bah. Forget it.
Just go.

Bartender/ski lift operator/au pair/whatever: Go to a fabulous country, have no time to do anything, and get paid next to nothing doing crap work!

Merchant Marines: Little known fact - today's modern container ships only take a few hours to offload - this means that ships spend as little time as possible in port. If you like taking weeks to get somehwere, and spending literally a few hours there, this is they way to go!

Peace Corps: Heh.

Volunteering: Well, you're VOLUNTEERING!

Bottom line is that many of these things are over-romanticized.

IMHO, the best thing to do is to get a backpack, put a change of clothes, a sleeping bag, a tent,
and a towel in it, buy a plane ticket to somewhere, and go.

I was in Turkey at a youth hostel once, and encountered a Dutch guy who was in the middle of a backpacking trip. He started of hitching in the netherlands, had gone through russia, mongolia, china, vietnam, thailand, india, pakistan, and iran, and had just gotten off of the train in eastern Turkey. He was washing washing his spare clothes - a change of underwear.

It doesn't take much money, and you can make a game of trying to find work to supplement your trip. A few thousand will keep you going for months if you're frugal, and you don't have anyone telling you what to do! If you don't like walking, and want to go fast, bring a bike.

Most of all, just have fun and enjoy the experience.

Commendable!

[pvera]

My hat is off to you sir.

I was going to say go for something unrelated, but there's plenty of volunteers working on normal average stuff that anyone can do. If you want to do good, volunteer in something that allows you to use your specialty.

For example, if I were a linux guy, I would find one of the groups that collects old hardware, reconditions it and deploys it with Linux at places (wherever) that cannot afford new computers and/or Windows. If you can do that and train a few locals too you will be making greater impact than volunteering for the Peace corps and handing out leaflets on birth control, vaccines, etc.

The reason I recommend you to pick something that allows you to use your experience is because you don't want to be left out of touch with your field for over a year (this would literally mean professional suicide for an IT person). If you are in IT and you spend a year making old and tired hardware work, you will hone your skills while you do something good, and it will even make good resume fodder later down the road.

Me? If I was single and felt like doing so, I would find a Spanish-speaking country and volunteer to teach programming and "Nerd English" to junior high kids (those of you that, like me, are not native English speakers know what I am talking about). To me teaching is the most challenging and rewarding occupation I could think of when salary is not an issue.

Right on!

[rocjoe71]

Go for it, you'll have a blast, I know I did... One of the best options going would be work visas-- Alot of European countries are chomping-at-the-bit for skilled people.

I lived and worked in London for four years, 3 years in various levels of IT for various IT departments all around the city. For those that had the experience, contracting rates could go as high as 1000 Pounds/day (mainframe programmer). Americans can get a 1-year work visa, countries in the Commonwealth get 2 years or more if your parents or grandparents were British citizens.

For up to date details go to or write to your nearest British consulate or embassy.

The are lots of other countries that offer work visas as well, look in the travel section of your bookstore for ideas on working overseas, they'll have names and addresses to contact.

Take an international work exchange

[adrianbye]

AIESEC [aiesec.org] is the world's largest student run organization, setting up work exchanges in 87 countries. They usually have a real demand for people with a background like yours. You won't be paid a lot of money, but you will get an amazing cultural experience.

Want to see the world?

[acacia]

Become a consultant. As a consultant I have traveled about 75% of the time over the last five years. Now in my case the travel has been strictly domestic, but my company has had international clients. There are many companies that specialize in technology consulting where the job is 50-100% travel. Data warehousing in particular is very mature in the US, but less so overseas. There may be opportunities for placement overseas, particularly if your language skills are good.

Admittedly, the job market is kind of sketchy right now, though many companies (including mine) are still hiring. The company I work for has actually still managed to grow our revenues and become profitable throughout the recession.

As an added bonus, you typically do not have any material living expenses, as your meals, transportation, and hotel are covered by the client. On top of that, consulting salaries are much higher than corporate IT.

If you make the cut, you will also get to work with very high caliber individuals who are experts in their fields. There are exceptions, but typically this type of exposure is difficult to get in a normal IT shop.

There is a downside, however. The work is stressful, you don't have the luxury of making as many mistakes, the hours are long, you are living out of a hotel, and it is nearly impossible to sustain meaningful relationships.

Good Luck!!!

Take a job on a freight ship

[f97tosc]

My brother, who is in med school, decided that he wanted to do something completely different for a semester.

He contacted a freight company and got a simple job onboard a ship. The job was pretty simple (e.g., removing rust) but not that demanding (only 8 hrs a day). Being the only one educated among the sailors, he was often invited to have dinner and discussions with the captain, who had a lot of stories to tell. And of course, it was always plenty of fun when he and the other sailors were 'let loose' in some port for a couple of days.

Sounds like something for you?

Tor

India

[Anonymous Coward]

Visit India. You can even get a job replacing Americans there.

Working Holiday Visas

[thogard]

Every civilized country in the world has Working Holiday Visas that allow young people to visit their country and work. The "young" bit is a subset of the range between 16 and 35 and the time they allow you to work is somewhere between one and three months with some odd requirements. For example in Australia, you can visit for up to a year, but can only work in any location for up to 3 months and only 6 months out of the year. The idea of these is to allow visitors to earn enough money so they enjoy their travels but to be restrictive enoungh not to displace local workers. The work that people on these visas get tends to be the kinds of jobs no one else wants but with computer skills, you should be able to find something.

The US of course only has these visas if your a Saudi even though they would be a major help to the depressed travel business. If your in this age group, maybe its something you should write your congresscritter about because they are making lots of changes to the immigration rules.

Most places also have Youth Hostels. These are cheap places to stay and they can range from small private rooms to a more typical dorm with several bunk beds in a room. In a big city downunder, it will cost you about US$10 a night. Other places can be three times more (London) or $2 nite (Bali last month). Its a great way to meet people. Some of my geek friends even meet their girlfriends while staying at yough hostels. The typical traveler will pack up all their stuff in a backpack and just go from place to place and find work when they can, see the differnt places, meet lots of people and then keep on going. Its a great way to spend a year or so.

a little presumtious, I'd say

[SethJohnson]

If you're an electrical engineering major who reads slashdot, I wouldn't be too confident that the wife and kids thing will just fall into your lap later on down the road. You might want to get to work on that part right away. It could take some time to implement.

Seth

Here's a thought

[The Bungi]

I hear Saddam Hussein is hiring electrical engineers that know a lot about high-speed centrifuges. Apparently they use them for making baby formula, go figure.

Photos from a geek-turned-Peace-Corps-volunteer

[vocaro]

Like the original poster, I felt that my life as a geek wasn't quite as fulfilling as it could be. Although I had a nice job designing software for medical instruments, I felt that I would never do anything really worthwhile. That's one of the reasons why I joined the Peace Corps [peacecorps.gov] soon after graduation. They sent me to Ghana, West Africa, to teach physics and math. I got back from my service last year, and I had an absolute blast. I even brought back a wonderful souvenir [vocaro.com].

For pictures of my experiences, see my site [vocaro.com]. You'll notice that I brought my laptop with me and was able to apply my geek skills by teaching computer classes on the side. You can find more stories about my geeky life in the Peace Corps here [vocaro.com].

When I left Ghana for good in August 2001, I still wasn't yet ready to return to the life of a software developer, so I immediately applied for a job as an English teacher with Nova [teachinjapan.com], the largest private school in Japan. As some here have suggested, this is another great way for geeks see the world and learn skills that don't require electricity. For anyone thinking of that route, I've written some tips [vocaro.com] on deciding whether to join Nova.

Trevor

IAESTE

[tchdab1]

Like AIESEC mentioned above, IAESTE is a great exchange organization: International Association for the Exchange of Students for Technical Experience. Find the US site at http://www.aipt.org/subpages/iaeste_us/index.php

I got a summer exchange internship in Norway over 20 years ago with IAESTE, and met many current friends that were there with both IAESTE and AIESEC from around the world - that summer in Bergen alone there were exchange students from these organizations from France, Denmark, Scotland, USA, Canada, Nigeria, Yugoslavia (that was then), Greece, Turkey, Indonesia, England, Ireland, Italy, and probably more that I can't remember.

Enjoy!
Check 'em out

Try:

[Joel Ironstone]

Engineers without borders

http://www.ewb-isf.org/

Here's an internship for a hardware/software project leader in Uganda:

http://www.ewb-isf.org/content/internships/f02/u ga nda.shtml

Re:Get some credit cards

[swordgeek]

Rather than modding this down, I'll reply.

What you propose will either (a) not work, or (b) get you into deep legal trouble, at least in the US, Canada, and as far as I know, all of the UK.

If you have $20k in cash and $20k in debt, you have a net worth of $0, which won't get you approved for a mortgage on that apartment. Business or residential, you'll still need that mortgage, and the banks WILL find your debt.

Unless, of course, you're planning on hiding it from them. Then you'll be committing fraud, and you still won't get away with it.

Forget this advice. Just go travelling!

Not going to help

[Goonie]

As far as the real loonies are concerned we're all infidels.

If you're concerned about general less friendly reception rather than just your security, you might find that going in with a sense of humor, a bit of respect for the local way of doing things, and refrain from regularly proclaiming to anyone who asks and plenty who don't that the US is the greatest country on earth and we do things better at home (even if you think it's true) tends to help ameliorate that problem.