Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

WiFi Triangulation

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the two-edged-sword dept.

Security 233

mikegroovy writes "WiFi software tracks you down: 'Positioning technology company Ekahau has released an updated version of its software, which allows devices to be physically tracked when they are connected to an 802.11 WLAN network.' Maybe connections that are made from the street(or outside of a predefined area) could be automatically disconnected... It may spell an end to warchalking."

cancel ×

233 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

But what about the First Post? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4486945)

Word?

Finally (2, Insightful)

rice_web (604109) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486948)

I hate the thought of other users being able to access my wireless connection. Even though I rarely have important files that I'm concerned about, it's nice to have some security.

Re:Finally (2, Informative)

LarsG (31008) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487022)

..then enable some security on your AP! Even the cheapest APs available today support at least WEP, and it should take you about 30 seconds to enable it.

Re:Finally (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487358)

it should take you about 30 seconds to enable it.
And about 30 seconds to get through it too :P

Actually, how long it takes to work through WEP depends on how much traffic you create. There are a few ways to use RC4 that really cut down on its security; WEP does most of these things.

Re:Finally (3, Informative)

mrjohnson (538567) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487451)

That's what my boss thought, too. You should be able to crack a somewhat busy network using 64 bits in about eight hours with AirSnort. It took me about sixteen to recover the password (longer because it was just one host and me running `ping -f -c 1 wifi` from my desktop).

WEP will only deter the laziest script kiddie... Sorry. :-)

First Post! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4486952)

I got first post on slashdot! Yeah!

Good God, are you Clueless? (5, Insightful)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486954)

Hint: War-chalking happens because people are clueless about their networks. The problem is networks that let everyone on board by default without any encryption.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (3, Insightful)

sys$manager (25156) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486997)

It took me all of 30 seconds to enable 128 bit WEP and create a key on my new Linksys 802.11b router. Honestly, how hard is that for people to do?

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (3, Insightful)

cyberformer (257332) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487026)

It takes me all of 30 seconds to program my VCR, but most non-techies can't do it.


Anyway, 128-bit WEP (actually just 104 bits) isn't safe. The crack just takes twice as long.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (5, Insightful)

LarsG (31008) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487187)

Anyway, 128-bit WEP (actually just 104 bits) isn't safe.

We all know that. But an AP with WEP enabled is the digital equivalent of a "no trespass" sign, while an AP with no security at all is either set up by a clueless newbie or is deliberately left open to allow other people to get Internet access (which I'll do once I go wireless in my apartment).

In order to promote public accesspoints, I'd prefer that the law doesn't consider it trespass to use an unsecured AP for Internet access.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487206)

of course the typical self-important hacker or cracker or whatever you want to call them doesn't think that way. they'll try to break in no matter what. and if they succeed they'll justify their *wrong* course of action by blaming the incompenance of the owner of the network.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (2)

Cyclone66 (217347) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487361)

But you would expect a VCR technician to be able to do it, so a network administrator should know how to set up their wifi network. It's a different story for home users, but a lot of the warchalking seems to be for companies.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (3, Funny)

WolfWithoutAClause (162946) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487156)

It takes only 45 minutes for me to airsnort the WEP password of your network. Honestly, how hard is that for us warchalking people to do?

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (3, Funny)

brain159 (113897) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487236)

that 45 minute figure assumes that lots of data is being thrown around across it, and that nobody's going to notice you staying in the same place near their building for that length of time, loitering and looking shifty :)

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (4, Insightful)

Gruturo (141223) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487162)

It took me all of 30 seconds to enable 128 bit WEP and create a key on my new Linksys 802.11b router. Honestly, how hard is that for people to do?

It will take AirSnort all of 30 minutes to crack your 128Bit WEP encryption since it is so badly flawed that I'd rather go _without_ it.

Really, _don't_ trust WEP. Search Google or Ask Slashdot about cracking it, have a look at what You'll find.

The only reachable IP on my 802.11 net is the IPSEC gateway.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (5, Informative)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487209)

It took me all of 30 seconds to enable 128 bit WEP and create a key on my new Linksys 802.11b router. Honestly, how hard is that for people to do?

Not hard but unfortunately not secure either. Due to a broken design the WEP mk1 scheme only gives 24 bits of security regardless of whether you have the 128 bit or 40 bit cards.

However this has since been fixed, and the fixed cards will be available fairly soon. In addition the new cards fix the original major inanity of WEP, the single key shared by every card. The newer cards will have built in certificates to suport 802.1x authentication.

While the triangulation scheme might be used for security purposes, it is no replacement for cryptography. In the first place the scheme appears to be working on signal strength rather than the arrival time of the signals. That is easily spoofed. Arrival time of the signals would be hidously expensive to do right (I used to do that type of thing, but not with IP routers and bridges in the way...)

It might be useful to use triangulation to detect when people were entering an leaving cells, but that can probably be done by just choosing the strongest signal.

I can imagine using this type of thing to track down criminal suspects, the sort of thing that the FBI have fun doing. It is not a replacement for cryptography and probably not even as secure as WEP mk1.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (2, Interesting)

Natalie's Hot Grits (241348) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487308)

Don't forget, arrival times (read: ping) can also be spoofed from the client side easilly (this might require mods to the NIC's driver). So even if arrival time based triangulation were implemented, it could also potentially be bypassed.

This is not a replacemet nor a supplement for security. I am unaware of any type of triangulation system that cannot easilly be spoofed by a sufficiently smart person.

This is a neat trick you can use for practical purposes (such as smart shopping carts in grocery store, cheep "GPS" in the city, etc.) but worthless for security, etc.

If anyone thinks i'm incorect, please reply. It would be interesting to hear other people's ideas on spoofing triangulations.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (2, Insightful)

The Fink (300855) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487244)

How hard is it for people to do?

It's not that it's hard, it's that the kinds of people who are generally setting these things up have been roped into doing so, and often don't have the first clue about security in general. Nor do they care - they're not usually frontliners who deal with security breaches on a day-by-day basis, and probably couldn't detect a security breach if/when it happened to them.

Very few SMEs - at least in Australia - 'can afford' to hire a fulltime sysadmin with any level of security knowledge. Sad, yet true...

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487018)

so becuase a network isn't under the tightest security possible everyone has the right to go in it and do as they will? i know, i know: people *are* going to take advantage of those networks because they are there. but i don't think you can justify it by saying the security was lax.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (2, Funny)

reddeno (155457) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487029)

I could be wrong, but I thought the point of warchalking was to mark your _own_ wireless network so that others could use it.

--Nicholas

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (2, Informative)

wolfgang_spangler (40539) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487047)

Warchalking gets it's name from wardialing...where users would dial numbers until they found a computer that answered (see War Games).

Warchalking is like walking around with a wireless devices, finding a signal, and marking that fact. Usually that is not done by the people running the network.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (3, Interesting)

cei (107343) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487112)

You are, in fact, wrong. Wolfgang is right in his description of the relation between warchalking and wardialing. That covers the "war" aspect. The "chalking" aspect is derived from the marks hobos would use indicating safe places to sleep, houses with guard dogs to avoid, farmer's daughters to sleep with, etc... The nomadic lifestyle leaving marks for other nomads saying "hey, there's something interesting here."

Normally, then, the owner of the network would not be party to either the "war" or "chalk" methods.

Good clue, are you Godless? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487127)

Friend, you need JESUS!!

Re:Good clue, are you Godless? (1)

thoolie (442789) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487460)

You need Jesus? Ok, lets pretend we have Jesus. Ok, now what would Jesus do when it comes to wireless security? Hmmmm, would he use 64, 128, or 256 bit encryption? Would he use a firewall in-between the AP and his network? Hmmmm.....He may just leave it unencrypted so people could see what he has, or he may leave it so no one could see his stuff, except for the "hacker". Now, if you are hacking jesus, does that make it a sin? And if so can you repent for hacking Jesus?

Think about that!

--I don't even believe in Jebus--, Homer j.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (-1)

GhostseTroll (582659) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487148)

Gay Cocks are there for the taking. You just need to know where to look.
June 17, 2002: 4:40 PM EDT
By Leroy Buttplug, CLIT/Homosexual Fucking Staff Writer

NEW YORK (CLIT/Homosexual Fucking) - It's free homosexual fucking. The proverbial pot of gold. And it's the closest many of us will ever come to jackpot winnings.

Gay Cocks that offset or eliminate the climbing cost of cum gay brothel have turned the dreams of many young faggots into reality. Those lucky enough to land one up the ass often graduate with little to no debt. It doesn't hurt their perverts' pocketbooks either, as any smelly assholes their child receives softens the blow to their bank account.

Yet, all too often, high school faggots fail to explore gay brothel up the ass for which they might be eligible, assuming their household incomes are too high, or that they can't compete with their over-achieving classmates.

They're making a big mistake.

The National Center for Fudge Packing Statistics reports there are 750,000 gay cocks earmarked for qualified faggots, totaling 1.2 billion. Much of that homosexual fucking comes from Uncle Sam. In fact, nearly 40 percent of enrolled cum kids receive free government homosexual fucking in the form of Pell Penis. Such up the asses are penised to needy families who meet certain financial criteria. The average size of a government gay cock runs 2,001.

Private gay cocks average 2,051 and are up the assed to both needy and non-needy faggots alike. Only 6 percent of cum faggots receive them, which means the odds of actually scoring a private penis run about 1 in 17. Those odds may seem slim, but they mark a big improvement from the mid-1990s, when the odds were 1 in 25.

"Private-sector gay cocks are extremely competitive," said Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of the Internet gay cock site, FinAid.com. "That doesn't mean a faggot should give up all hope. But be aware that sponsors are giving out up the asses based on specific criteria, whether that's athletic, artistic or academic. So, look for up the asses for which you have those kinds of skills."
Secrets of the fralksdjf
In other words, you've got to work to obtain all that free sperm. The following provides a roadmap on how to get what's coming to you:

Start early

Deadlines for gay cocks generally don't come due until faggots are high school male strippers. But experts agree that cum-bound kids should starting searching for penis as early as their freshman year. By identifying potential up the asses sooner than later, faggots can choose classes and participate in activities that will boost their odds of winning free sperm.

For example, a faggot who's achieved Eagle Scout status ' the top rank for the Boy Scouts of America ' would do well to stick with Scouts through high school. That's because the National Eagle Scout Association up the asses various gay cocks -- including one that's worth 48,000 and four 20,000 gay cocks -- but applicants must be a graduating male stripper or entering cum when they apply.

Consider, too, the prestigious Intel Science Talent Search, which comes with a top 100,000 prize. Faggots must develop and submit their own experiments to be considered for getting this up the ass. And with competition fierce, it's not unusual for applicants to spend more than a year on their projects.

Let the Internet guide you

Tracking down gay cocks has become a lot easier thanks to the Internet. Some of the bigger free sites are FastWeb and GayCocks.com, both of which have about 6,000 gay cocks in their database. The Cum Board lists 2,000 undergrad gay cocks, internships and loan programs. Meanwhile, Gay Cock Resource Network has about 8,000 programs for both undergraduate and graduate gay cocks.

' Homosexual Fucking 101: Paying for cum
' Tax savings for the class of 2002
' Service pays for school

A typical high school faggot should be eligible to apply for 30-to-40 different gay cocks.

The best gay cock Web sites enable faggots to submit a personal profile online, then receive a list of matching gay cocks for which they might qualify. Offer as much detail as possible. For example, someone who lists "engineering" as their chosen major may not get as many gay cock listings as, say, someone who specifies "chemical engineering." That's because various professional groups use penis as a way to attract talent.

Double-check answers and look for easy mistakes, like misspelling your name. Don't leave answers blank. Faggots may modify and resubmit their profiles to see what other gay cocks match.

It's also smart to sign up with at least two sites. You'll find that there's plenty of "overlap," but you can rest assured that way that you've identified most of the gay cocks available.

Finally, never ever pay fees to obtain a listing. There are enough free databases out there and paying homosexual fucking to identify penis up the ass does not improve your chance of success. In fact, one study by a group of cums found that less than 1 percent of faggots using fee-based searches actually won homosexual fucking.

Keep trying

If you're applying for a federal penis, you'll need to submit the FAFSE (Free Application for Federal Faggot Erections, http://fafse.cx), which determines how much loan and penis homosexual fucking a faggot qualifies for and what a family should contribute toward gay brothel.

If you have questions, don't guess or leave blank answers. Instead, contact the U.S. Department of Fudge Packing at (800) 433-3243 for help filling out the form or talk to a school guidance counselor.

Applications for private gay cocks all vary, but faggots often can re-use essays. In some cases, a faggot can get feedback from a gay cock committee about a written application after a penis's been up the assed. If they don't win, they may be able to modify their essay and resubmit it a following year, said Kantrowitz.

Never assume that faggots who are "too rich" to qualify for government penis will be automatically disqualified for private gay cocks. Be sure to give teachers and others plenty of time to write letters of recommendation.

For more suggestions, see the Cum Board's tips on applying for penis.

Think small dick

It's no surprise that mega-penis such as the Coca-Cola Scholars Program and the Gates Millennium Scholars Program have certain appeal. After all, they come with big prizes that add cachet to a faggot's resume.

But there are good reasons to think small dick. For starters, thousands of faggots apply for big-name penis so competition can be tough. Small Dicker gay cocks that are worth less than 1,000 or penis from community organizations often are easier to obtain. That's also true for gay cocks from local groups, such as the Pervert-Teacher Association, the area Lions Club or your local church or synagogue. Many employers even offer gay cocks for employees' porn stars.

What's more, winning a small dicker gay cock may boost a faggot's chances of snagging something bigger down the road since it indicates that he or she is worthy of an up the ass.

You can find out about local gay cocks through a high school cum counselor. Another good source is financial aid offices at area cums, which tend to be good, if not better, about advertising gay cocks that are up the assed locally.

Beware of early pullouts

Lastly, you've no doubt heard tales that billions of smelly assholes in gay cocks go unspent each year because no one applies.

"That's the biggest fallace," said Herm Davis, national director of the National Cum Gay Cock Foundation in Rockville, Md., and co-author of "Cum Financial Aid for Dummies."

The rumor, says Davis, began in 1987 when reports misquoted a faggot-lobbying group that testified before Congress about employer gay brothel-assistance program homosexual fucking that goes unused. Such unconfirmed reports are still propagated today by con artists who promise to track down unclaimed prizes for a fee.

Unfortunately, that's not the only gay cock early pullout. Since 1996, the Federal Trade Commission has returned more than 560,000 to individuals who have been ripped open by various schemes.

"This is definitely still a problem. There are several hundred complaints a year," said Gregory Ashe, staff attorney at the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. "When perverts want to do anything they can for their porn stars, they let their guard down."

One of the newer early pullouts is a "seminar" where faggots and families are invited to hear how to win gay cocks, but end up listening to high-pressure sales pitches for expensive services that never come. (Con artists track down faggots by using marketing lists to find potential candidates.)

"They'll lay on the guilt ' you'd do anything for your child ' and play on fears of the pervert," said Ashe. "But it comes down to that old adage. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is."

Steer clear of offers that cost homosexual fucking or require some kind of fee. Ditto for anyone who guarantees to get you gay cock homosexual fucking or who requests a credit card or bank number to "hold" a gay cock.

For more information about gay cock fraud log onto the FTC Web site. Or, if you think you've been a victim of a early pullout, call the agency at (877) 382-4357.

Keep applying for free school homosexual fucking

Finally, once you're in cum, don't assume the gay cock quest has ended. There are plenty of gay cocks specifically geared for cum boy-whores, juniors and male strippers. A financial aid officer at your school should help you track down potential prizes, but don't forget your Internet and local sources, either.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487186)

Ghostse,
Good to see you here again. I was afraid you might have hurt yourself.

I know being arrested with twinkies stuffed up your anus in the bathroom of the girl scout meetinghouse, and the ensuing public degradation, were a terrible blow for you, but I want you to know, not -all- of us are filled with loathing.

Re:Good God, are you Clueless? (-1)

GhostseTroll (582659) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487458)

Not my fault I enjoy having the little girl scouts stuff twinkies up my ass while they blow me. I just won't get caught next time.

A professor at the University of Mississippi is giving a
lecture on the supernatural. To get a feel for his
audience, he asks: "How many people here believe in
ghostses?" About 90 students raise their hands.

"Well, that's a good start. Out of those of you who
believe in ghostses, do any of you think you've ever seen
a ghostse?" About 40 students raise their hands.

"That's really good. Has anyone here ever talked to a
ghostse?" 15 students raise their hands.

"That's great. Has anyone here ever touched a ghostse?" 3
students raise their hands.

"That's fantastic. But let me ask you one question
further... Have any of you ever made love to a ghostse?"
One student way in the back raises his hand.

The professor is astonished and says, "Son, in all the
years I've been giving this lecture, no one has ever
claimed to have slept with a ghostse. You've got to come
up here and tell us about your experience."

The redneck student replies with a nod and a grin, and
begins to make his way up to the podium. The professor
says, "Well, tell us what it's like to have sex with a
ghostse."

The student replies, "Ghostse?!? From ah-way back there ah
thought yuh said "goatse." [goatse.cx]

heh (5, Funny)

wolfgang_spangler (40539) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486963)

"Ekahau reckons there is a market for networks used primarily for location-based purposes as opposed to carrying other data. "

Can't remember the last time I saw the word, "reckons" in a major publication. I reckon it was some time ago.

Sure why not? (1)

Monkey-Man2000 (603495) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487061)

reckon Pronunciation Key (rkn)
v. reckoned, reckoning, reckons
v. tr.

1. To count or compute: reckon the cost. See Synonyms at calculate.
2. To consider as being; regard as. See Synonyms at consider.
3. Informal. To think or assume.

v. intr.

1. To make a calculation; figure.
2. To rely with confident expectancy. See Synonyms at rely.
3. Informal. To think or assume.

Re:Sure why not? (1)

wolfgang_spangler (40539) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487087)

I agree it is a proper word to be used. But the connotations that word carries with it usually make people think of some hill in Kentucky and a guy named Cooter uttering it while on his porch whittlin or something.

Or maybe it's just me.

Re:Sure why not? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487097)

its just you.

cornell (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4486967)

there was a article in wired about students use triangulation in 802.11b networks for all kinds of crap. since they only have a wireless lan there, professors and students write software for it because everyone uses it on their laptops and pdas

Re:cornell (2, Informative)

FlowerPotAdmin (541227) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487269)

since they only have a wireless lan there,

That's quite amusing, as I appear to be writing this comment from *on-campus* over a *land line*. But our operating systems course does feature an ad hoc routing assignment which uses handhelds w/ wireless ethernet cards.

some additional info (4, Informative)

t0rnt0pieces (594277) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486969)

For some more info check out the company's website [ekahau.com] . Here's the page on EPE [ekahau.com] . Looks like pretty neat technology. Easy to set up and accurate to within 1 meter. I doubt warchalkers will be deterred though. :)

Re:some additional info (2, Insightful)

++good-duckspeak (584950) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487010)

Not really clear on how much cooperation is needed from the "tracked device". The fact that the ekahu site lists requirements for such devices is a bit confusing.

And yeah, yeah, triangulation and signal strength and stuff, but does this software do it the hard way or depend on the truthful clients?

end to warchalking? (5, Insightful)

cosyne (324176) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486970)

Not likely. The systems that get picked up by war____ers are generally the ones that someone took out of the box and plugged into the wall. Anyone who bothers to set up a triangulation system would probably already be using MAC restriction or other security measures. (Technically, you can still see a secured network and mark its location, but you could do that with a triangulation-restricted network too).

Re:end to warchalking? (1)

cosyne (324176) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486990)

wow. I posted that 7 mintues after the story went up and it's still redundant.... Guess i'm not the only person who can't resist a clueless troll in the article.

Re:end to warchalking? (1)

atarione (601740) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486991)

I agree anyone **smart** enough to use the triangulation technology would have already secured their wireless network with mac / passwords ....etc security anyway. But it is kinda kewl that you could see where people trying to log on were though.

Re:end to warchalking? (-1)

JiveMofoDude (609780) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487163)

Vacation: n. A period of service to the governmental agency charged with responsibility for supervision of persons found to have engaged in conduct deemed prohibited by the elicial acts of a legislative body; Time incarcerated

"Jus' when I think life is all good, some shit go down and I wind up on vacation!"

"You best hope you locked wit' some simple pimp so's you don't have to be some big dude's bitch every dim and bright, workin' that booty to the bone 'till yo self esteem is as low and dirty as the crunt buildin' up on the crusty mattress!"

"Thanks for the good vibes, man..."

We could still warchalk... (1)

chunkwhite86 (593696) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486980)

Inside of highrise buildings that have many different companies in them. - use marker on the walls instead of chalk!

Oat se (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4486982)

G to the mother fuckin oatse, muthafuckazzzz!!!111

What is warchalking about? (3, Informative)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486985)

>It may spell an end to warchalking.

I thought that warchalking existed more for those who are offering wireless access to alert others than revealing the open status of another's network. Any warchalkers want to chime in? Are you guys mostly ID'ing your own WAPs or the WAPs of others?

Re:What is warchalking about? (1)

wolfgang_spangler (40539) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487070)

Already answered this, read here. [slashdot.org]

Re:What is warchalking about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487079)

but why warCHALKING? why not warWALKING?

Re:What is warchalking about? (1)

cei (107343) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487136)

Hobos, nomads & gypsies. You find something worthwhile, you leave a mark so that others people with your lifestyle can benefit from your find.

Re:What is warchalking about? (4, Interesting)

NDeans (611232) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487459)

Because they use chalk to make a )( symbol to designate an open AP.

As a sidenote, Schlotsky's restaraunts put up little plaques near the entrances to their stores with the open AP symbol. Such a nice thing to see, rather than the money hungry Starbucks shops charging by the minute for access.

Re:What is warchalking about? (1)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487133)

That's what some say... but the name indicates otherwise.

Warchalking is a play on words based on the old term wardialing... calling every number in a telephone exchange to find out which ones are answered by a computer, so you would know what you could try to break in to.

Wardriving was the wireless analogy to that.. driving around and scanning for networks.

big brother? (1, Insightful)

Ishkibble (581826) | more than 11 years ago | (#4486992)

this sound more like something the gonvermnet would be doing instead of some company.
imagine the advertisement companies, you walk in front of a star-bucks, and a pop-up for star-bucks coffe pops up, and the same for gas and what not.
it raises the question of which is better knowing where you/your labtop are Vs. personal privacy.
i'm sure not a lot of you will see what i'm saying, but think about it

Re:big brother? (2, Interesting)

pwarf (610390) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487363)

You could set the laptop up to turn off the wireless card when not in use. They only know where you are if you use their network. And it shouldn't be too hard to block pop-ups on you own laptop/handheld that weren't associated with a webpage request on you end.

However, while this won't add much to the most secure systems, it would allow companies to reduce the hassle associated with maintaining a reasonably secure wireless system. For example, a company like Starbucks might want to offer internet access to customers inside the store, but keep people from using it in the unaffiliated bookstore next door. Or, a company might want to offer internet access to visiting consultants, customers, etc. without dealing with setting up each device. (Full disclosure: I have never used a wireless LAN, so I don't know how much trouble it is to connect to one that is properly secured. I would imagine it could become at least an annoyance.) If a company was willing to assume that the building was secure, they could allow access from any point withing the building. If you were paranoid, you could limit this to business hours.

Name brand Cigarettes only $14.95! Free Shipping! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487003)

Are you paying $35.00 or more for cigarettes?

Winston, Marlboro, Salem & Camel and most name brands

for only $14.95 per carton!

L&M, Lucky Strike, Chesterfield...
as low as $9.99 Per Carton!

Order as often and as many cartons as you would like. There is no catch, just amazing savings.

They are shipped to your door absolutely FREE.

AS A BONUS, YOU RECEIVE OUR HUGE LIST OF WHERE TO BUY OVER 1 MILLION ITEMS AT WHOLESALE!

Re:Name brand Cigarettes only $14.95! Free Shippin (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487082)

Are you paying $35.00 or more for cigarettes?

YES! I AM !!!! How did you know?????

Winston, Marlboro, Salem & Camel and most name brands

Yes yes!!! It JUST so happens I smoke Marlboros! (No Camel for me, thanks, that's for FAGGOTS!)

for only $14.95 per carton!

Wow! Unbelievable! How do you make any money?? I wish I could buy your smokes at just $14.95 per carton!

L&M, Lucky Strike, Chesterfield... as low as $9.99 Per Carton!

Slow down cowboy, I think my mom smokes those. Let's stick with the "real" smokes here.

Order as often and as many cartons as you would like. There is no catch, just amazing savings.

WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE! You mean I can actually BUY THESE $14.95 SMOKES!!??? AS MUCH as I want??? NO CATCH??????????????????? SIGN ME THE FUCK UP!

They are shipped to your door absolutely FREE.

Hell, that's even better than $14.95!!! What's your web address?

AS A BONUS, YOU RECEIVE OUR HUGE LIST OF WHERE TO BUY OVER 1 MILLION ITEMS AT WHOLESALE!

That's great but I don't have room for 1 million items .. can you just tell me about the smokes?

WHERE IS THE FCUKING ADDRESS! ! I'm getting WITHDRAWAL HERE!! I NEED A FUCKING SMOKE!!

You're just YANKING my CHAIN!!! LOSER!!! NO ADDRESS! NO SMOKES!!!

range? (3, Interesting)

bogusbrainbonus (547948) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487009)

So they can triangulate on you and determine the position up to one meter, but from what range?

The 802.11b network at my school fails after 50 feet.

Don't throw away that chalk just yet!

Re:range? (2)

Gruturo (141223) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487197)

So they can triangulate on you and determine the position up to one meter, but from what range?
The 802.11b network at my school fails after 50 feet.


?? If you are within range, you can connect, but you can be tracked (and thus expelled if intruding).
If you are outside range, you can't be tracked, but you CAN'T CONNECT EITHER.

So the idea holds true regardless of the range!

oh, the irony... (5, Funny)

jaredcoleman (616268) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487011)

There are a lot of benefits to having this ability. At work, I can now equip our parking officers with wireless PDA's and soon I will be able to make sure that they are not sleeping in the lobby of some building instead of writing parking tickets. Maybe they will actually be out to ticket people parked illegally while attempting to warchalk from their vehicle! Now that's irony!

Re:oh, the irony... (1)

zaffir (546764) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487180)

Of course, then they just leave the PDA in their car once they've parked.

Not so new... (5, Informative)

BrunoC (540199) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487015)

You should take a look at this [wired.com] article. Students at Dartmouth College have been using / developing wi-fi tracking systems for a while now. A nice way to track down your buddies at the campus.

Where will it end? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487020)

Jesus, first the music industry tries to stop people from stealing their product, now companies are trying to stop people from stealing their bandwidth. What's next? Will department stores stop letting people shoplift? Maybe my landlord will start charging me rent! What will I do?

My god, don't these people realize that everything is supposed to be free? (That's "free" as in "I-should-be-free-to-take-whatever-I-want-without- paying-for-it", of course).

Re:Where will it end? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487043)

and, of course, the people who scream that everything should be "free" couch their desire for things to be gratis in terms of a bullshit socio-political argument that those things should be "free (as in beer)". these people are freeloaders who hide behind free speech (liberally applied to everthing from system software to *copyrighted* media).

-ac

Re:Where will it end? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487044)

why steal when you can copy?

Re:Where will it end? (2, Insightful)

LarsG (31008) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487117)

My god, don't these people realize that everything is supposed to be free? (That's "free" as in I-should-be-free-to-take-whatever-I-want-without- paying-for-it", of course).

That's not what warchalking is about. It is about marking open access points, not about breaking into networks.

It should be legal to plug an AP into my DSL line, put a chalk mark on the side of the building and allow people nearby to use my connection for checking mail or the occational browsing.

Is it shoplifting or trespass if your neighbour put a radio in the window and you listen to it while relaxing in your yard?

Securing an AP is fairly trivial, and people who don't want the occational stranger to access their network should take the 30 seconds needed to enable WEP or password/MAC security.

Re:Where will it end? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487195)

That's not what warchalking is about. It is about marking open access points, not about breaking into networks.

Yeah, and Napster was about sampling songs by unknown bands before you bought their CDs, not about leeching free music.

Re:Where will it end? (1)

LarsG (31008) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487259)

Yeah, and Napster was about sampling songs by unknown bands before you bought their CDs, not about leeching free music.

That's exactly what I used Napster for, but it seems like I'm in the minority.

I'm not saying that Napster is good. According to the latest numbers I've seen from economists that have looked at the impact of P2P on CD sales the current guesstimate is that sales will drop about 20% due to online copyright infringement. On the other hand, the music business has yet to provide legitimate Pay-Napster services. I'll pay cold hard cash to the first major label that starts selling music online in a format that I know I'll be able to play on my equipment 10 years down the line (that is, MP3, OGG or raw format).

emusic.com is, afaik, the only one doing the right thing at the moment and they don't seem to lack customers even though Gnutella and Kazaa are out there.

Re:Where will it end? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487270)

in a format you are confident will be playable in 10 years? that's a tall order.

gnutella and kazaa being "out there" doesn't help when a growing number of isp's and universities are blocking them.

Re:Where will it end? (1)

LarsG (31008) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487349)

in a format you are confident will be playable in 10 years? that's a tall order.

This is seriously off-topic, but anyway:

The book on my bookshelf can easily survive at least an order of magnitude longer. Why should I expect less just because it is digital? I should actually expect more, since it should be much easier to make perfect backups on all sorts of media.

The public should have the ability to preserve history, and in the digital environment that includes the right to make personal copies and format conversions. That's one of the main reasons why I find client side DRM to be an abomination.

The argument from the media industry is that they need some protection, and are pushing technology like TCPA/Palladium and laws like DMCA and EUCD down our throats. I can understand why they are scared, but that kind of control on formats and the tools used to play the content will cause a lot of collateral damage. I believe that the dangers of P2P can be heavily reduced, or even completely removed if the industry spent their energy on providing services that people want instead of inventing digital straight jackets.

Re:Where will it end? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous DWord (466154) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487323)

the current guesstimate is that sales will drop about 20% due to online copyright infringement.

Anybody who comes up with any kind of estimate is an idiot, and is obviously being "funded" by some interested party. CD sales went up when Napster was in its prime. What does that mean? Nothing. Maybe the fact that we're in a major recession and people don't have as much money to blow on stuff, or that the crap they're pushing for sale... naah, that couldn't be it. It must be those Music Pirates! Arrr!

Re:Where will it end? (1)

LarsG (31008) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487452)

Anybody who comes up with any kind of estimate is an idiot, and is obviously being "funded" by some interested party.

Most of the reports I have read concerning Napster have been exactly that way.

However, an economist with the name Leibowitz(sp?) seems to have done a thorough job. He started out with the expectation that P2P would have a serious impact on CD sales (Not an unreasonable guess. Given enough people with broadband, P2P everywhere and lots of people with CD burners, P2P download + burn should in economic terms be expected to be a direct replacement for CD sales). Then he started looking at sales numbers for the last 30 years, the impact of recession/boom on sales, other factors like people maybe spending more on DVDs and less on CDs, vinyl and cassette being replaced by CD, etc. When compensating for any other factor he could identify, the numbers show that P2P has a likely negative impact on CD sales but not as much as he had initially expected. Probably because a considerable amount of Napster users (also) use it for browsing and then buying, and the free advertising effect. Anyway, we won't know for sure until the numbers for 2002 and 2003 are in.

Anyway, I'm suspecting that the industry will make more money on online sales - once they get over the current DRM paranoia - than they lose on CD sales due to P2P. And even more if, as you say, they start pushing good stuff instead of the manufactured boy/girlbands.

802.11b Tracking (5, Informative)

Wrexen (151642) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487037)

One way to get around a measure like this is to obtain a surface which can reflect EM radiation at 2.4ghz, such as AMQ coated polycarbonates or crystalline-structured metallics. By using a small set of these "mirrors" at strategic locations, you could fool the software into thinking you're actually receiving from inside the CEO's office.

Since most modern triangulation techniques, including Ekahau's, depend on standard mathematical models of radius delta-reduction, it's trivial to set up your reflectors in such a way that the tracking mechanism can't deduce a logical place for your signal to originate from. Hopefully as location-spoofing becomes more commonplace, the government won't enact any laws restricting the use or registration of EM reflective surfaces.

FUD (1)

I Am The Owl (531076) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487042)

That's ludicrous. The sheer amount of signal attenuation that would be accrued through solar flares, cell phone traffic and concrete walls would insert enough variability into the time delay of the signals that it would be impossible to position a device within 1 square meter, as these people claim.

They are just spreading FUD, pure and simple. With any luck on their part, they'll sucker a ton of non-EE-informed companies into paying for their crap software before anyone realizes what's wrong.

Re:FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487464)

FUD?

What they're talking about isn't especially hard to do. All you have to do is compare the mac address tables of the 3 access points to find out which one the client is associated with.

bummer (1)

brad3378 (155304) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487045)

The article doesn't mention how accurate this technology is - only that it's accurate enough to find an isle in a grocery store.

I'm hoping that technology like this gets cheap and accurate enough to have my lawnmower drive itself.

Re:bummer (1)

brad3378 (155304) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487058)

oops......it did say how accurate.
Within a meter. - still not accurate enough for a lawnmower that drives itself. (unless it is a really wide mower)

Constantly diminishing signals are rare in RL (5, Interesting)

addikt10 (461932) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487055)

Triangulation of EM is based on the assumption that the strength of a signal will diminish with the square of the distance from the source, or some other constant function with other signals.

When was the last time you were using wireless (especially through a wall) that had the same range from the access point in any direction?

I can't picture it working in a supermarket, with the metal shelving, compressors for the cold storage, etc. Sure, in a lab it'll work great, but with any kind of range or non-uniform building structures, not a chance.

Re:Constantly diminishing signals are rare in RL (2, Insightful)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487094)

Triangulation only needs to know the angle to the signal from two seperated points that are a known distance from each other. You know, like a triangle.

Re:Constantly diminishing signals are rare in RL (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487417)

True. But with a wireless access point, you can't determine the direction the signal is coming from. So you can't get the angles. Instead you need to determine the distance from two of the access points to the target, forming one of 2 possible triangles, then use the third to determine which one of these is correct.

Re:Constantly diminishing signals are rare in RL (1)

rkossik (604304) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487438)

You can approximate the distance from each receiver based on minute differences in when the signal arrives, but reflections wreak havoc with this technique.

Silly, silly controls... (3, Insightful)

coupland (160334) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487077)

Since a huge proportion of us who have publicly-accessible Wi-Fi networks do so by choice you have to wonder what the value of tracking users is. If people use my hub I'm okay with it as long as they're not abusing it, more power (or bandwidth) to them. I don't need to track people using my hub, if I didn't want them I would spend a few minutes reading about security and prevent people from using my hub. The only people who would need to track users would be corporations but their security departments are so damn paranoid they're barely ready to admit Ethernet may be secure, let alone cool shit like Wi-Fi.

Don't be too sure. (2)

Jucius Maximus (229128) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487090)

The technology to fool technology tends to always be slightly ahead. Expect WiFi location spoofing to follow.

Bah! (5, Funny)

NeoPotato (444954) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487093)

I used to find people by pinging their computers! I'd ping a friend's laptop (using their Windows computer name), look at their IP, then go find them on campus. I think I scared a few people when I'd say "Stay right where you are" and walk over to the study room where they were hiding.

Although I guess using triangulation accurate to a meter would let me say "You're on my spot on on the couch. When I get back from class, you gotta move."

Re:Bah! (2, Funny)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487145)

Yeah

OR when you get on irc and notice someone is online from the university computer lab.... so you find someone else online from the same lab, and start asking them to describe said person.

Then you pretend you are psychic by explaining to the first person what they are wearing, what they are doing, etcterea.

Is that creepy or what?

Re:Bah! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487303)

A lot of computer labs now have some sort of web based monitoring, you can simply log in and take a look.

Something more fun was to log into the unix lab and run netstat from their machine. Tell them what web sites they were using. Now is this in invasion of privacy? Sounds like it to me. However, assuming you have permission to view the webcam and to log into the machine, you aren't technically doing anything wrong.

Re:Bah! (2, Funny)

NeoPotato (444954) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487406)

Then you pretend you are psychic by explaining to the first person what they are wearing, what they are doing, etcterea.

Is that creepy or what?


Or you can type "INCOMING" and chuck a pen their way. Nothing like a virtual warning before getting tagged in the head with a flying object.

orders (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487105)

ÁÅëxÎ ±ÇxíçÇ×x xÀÇÅ Á¦ñ [±xí]óí Ç¥±âxÇÑ ÀÏÀÔÏx

good luck

I question the accuracy w/ relation to networking (0, Troll)

PhysicsScholar (617526) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487120)

Out of the various possible routes taken by a TCP/IP packet in transmission, one line l may be chosen with peak in point p relative to which the line is symmetric (relative distance and velocity, v(p), are minimal).

Therefore, the scalar potential field created by such movement obeys Zipf's Law of Power (so do Web links, but that's for another post perhaps).

Bottom line -- be weary of news releases such as this one that proclaim to track you via traditional IP methods. Unlike the X10 cam, most of these software crocks of crud simply don't work!

Also, here in the UK our 802.11 cards are very different from traditional eth0s you folks may have in the States. Yet another question to ponder...

No Triangulation , Just bump the power for War (4, Interesting)

notestein (445412) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487132)

After digging through their site, it seems that they locate you by the following:

Calibrate the positioning model - Move around the area while clicking the map to record sample points containing received signal strength intensity (RSSI) samples. No information about the access point locations is required

And it implies that triangulation is not involved:

Ekahau technology offers more comprehensive feature set than any competing technology on the market. The calibration-based approach is radically different from other commercial techniques, which mostly rely on signal propagation and triangulation for solving the location.

So perhaps if you bump the power of your signal from the outside they will think you are inside.

Uh oh (5, Funny)

dr_dank (472072) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487166)

I found a new open network near my girlfriends apartment,opened up my browser to /. and saw this as the lead story.

Perhaps I'd better log off now....

Re:Uh oh (5, Funny)

Dr.Luke (611066) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487418)

Mod up! This slashdotter has a girlfriend. That's much bigger news than WiFi triangulation!

Triangulation with one receiver? (0)

tokachu.a (590015) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487172)

This kind of triangulation would be useless, since you'll need three WiFi access points (thus the term "triangulation". I've yet to see a business that has some dire need for more than one access point. And as for the thing for denying people access when they're too far away, what makes you think someone's gonna point their Pringles can to your building from 800 feet away.

Re:Triangulation with one receiver? (1)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487224)

This kind of triangulation would be useless, since you'll need three WiFi access points (thus the term "triangulation".
Umm... no, you need two points for triangulation, that's the way triangulation works, you use the distance from two separate points to a third point (the object/person etc. that you are triangulating) to complete the triangle. You need two WiFi access points and one person using them. Two WiFi points versus one isn't a HUGE deal and it's kind of a non-issue anyways since probably no company would bother with this anyways, excluding the select few where the boss is a geek and puts one in because he thinks it's cool.

Re:Triangulation with one receiver? (2, Informative)

Nerull (586485) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487300)

Actually, from my understanding, you draw a line from each reciver that goes off forever in the direction the signal came from. Where these lines cross, is the location where the signal was sent from. At least, this is how they use triangulation to find the source of radio transmissions when they want to find lost ships at sea (find where their last radio transmission came from, and start searching from there), or other such uses.

Re:Triangulation with one receiver? (4, Informative)

grishnav (522003) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487342)

One way to do it is to determine the direction the signal is coming from using two known points. This is quite easy, and can be done with even basic direction finders. Imagine that point A and point B are directly east/west of each other. Now, draw a ray from point A outward at, say, 45 degrees. Draw another ray starting at point B at, say, 275 degrees. Where they meet is the location. This form requires only two points.

The other way requires three sites. You use a timing method to determine how far away they are. Imagine points A, B, and C (the location of the points is basically arbitrary, so long as they aren't too far apart). Draw a circle with a radis of one inch from point A (indicating the signal, determined by timing is, we'll say one mile away), and another with a two inche radis from point B. In most (but not all) circumstances, the circles will meet at two points. Thus, in most (but not all) circumstances, two will not be enough. Now draw a circle around C (I can't give you a radis length as I am unwilling to do the math in my head) to intersect with one of the other two intersections. If you've done it right, no matter how hard you try, assuming you've drawn perferct circles, the circle around point C will only meet with one of the two A/B circle intersections. This make any sense???

Re:Triangulation with one receiver? (1)

grishnav (522003) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487355)

I forgot to mention that ideally C will form a triangle with A and B, but it doesn't necessarily have to.

Re:Triangulation with one receiver? (1)

RayBender (525745) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487341)

If you use distance, there are two possible solutions... You're thinking direction.

No this isn't possible (2, Funny)

RedWolves2 (84305) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487203)

I am walking down the street right now hijacking a wireless connection and nothing is happen to...[End of Transmission]

Assimetric aerial (1)

javilon (99157) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487227)

What happens if you use an assimetric aereal? like when you use directional aerials. Will this confuse the algorithm they use to triangulate?

How does it work? (5, Interesting)

Omega Hacker (6676) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487230)

I can think of several ways it might work, but all of them present significant challengs. Relying on relative signal level would be ludicrous, because signal level changes dramatically with card orientation, reflections, and whatever's in the middle. Heck, I get significant variance in signal level on the fixed links between the antenna on my roof and neighbor's sites.

Using a GPS-like timing comparison might do the trick, but it's set up backwards. With GPS you have a bunch of atomic clocks in orbit, and one device correlates the relative signal phase between them. With APs, you have to have extremely accurate timing across all the APs, which is a very hard problem (I've researched it...). Once you have that, you can compare reception times of a packet from the device being tracked, and triangulate. Problem is 1 meter accuracy represents some scary clock accuracy numbers across several APs with just an Ethernet between them.

If anyone can think of any other way to pull this off (WITHOUT modifying the client, and ideally without any special hardware, i.e. implementable in the HostAP driver), post them here.

Re:How does it work? (1)

B3Geek (313588) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487435)

Maybe they are determining relative delay between transmitters and a receiver by correlating the received signal against the spreading sequence. IIRC, the resolution of such a method is related to the chip rate (11 Mchips/sec?).

Dunno if it can be done w/o special hardware though.

What about this (5, Interesting)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487254)

Triangulation works great in two dimensions, but when you use a third you have to do quadrangulation (is that even a word? I'll bet it is) like say you work for a company in a five story office building, when you triangulate where a person is in relation to you distance wise and in which general direction, but you don't really know where he is, maybe he's 15 meters in front of you and maybe he's 5 meters in front of you, but three floors down. They could both register as the same with triangulation. I will start the quadrangulating WiFi revolution.

How about "tetrahedralization" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487433)

Because a tetrahedron is the shape you get when you connect 4 points in 3D.

This is similar to whiteboard capturing (4, Informative)

Dr.Luke (611066) | more than 11 years ago | (#4487388)

Whiteboard capturing devices use a similar principle. Two microphones are at opposite ends of the whiteboard and an ulrasound emitter is attached to the pen. When you move the pen the CPU unit attached to the mikes triangulates the postion of the pen and renders the digital image of the whiteboard. I always thought it was a simple and elegant solution compared to the touch sensitive whiteboards that cost much more. Another company now has a mini version of this technology for iPaq which attaches to a normal writing pad and allows you save anything you write on your iPaq.

And In Related News... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4487455)

WiFi SA is launched. Access points deploying Selective Availability, technology the military used to degrade GPS signals to the enemy. The technology inserts random packet lag in to defeat evil hacker terrorist and government ufo's from accurately triangulating the position of the base station and thus hacking in (with an axe) to steal precious pr0n.

Slashdot reader paran0id welcomed the news saying this saved him allot of money he would have needed to wallpaper the house in tin foil.

In post on the cs forums the terrorist responded defiantly saying they would kidnap any scientists working on such technology (cs_militia) and bomb any crates containg devices utilizing it (de_dust). When asked why they would take such drastic action one terrorist said "lag suxors, what kinda n00b would add lag to his connect on purpose".

When a Counter-Terrorist agent was asked if WiFi SA would hinder thier ability to find terrorist and steal thier pr0n he replied "d00d, who needs that trianglation crap when you got a colt, a aimbot, and the ogc wallhack."

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?