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226 comments

first post (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497673)

linux sucks.

Re:first post (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497802)

It's GNU/Linux not Linux!

Oh, and it's actually really good.

Re:first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498072)

this got modded underrated?

Re:first post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498194)

this was modded offtopic?

Re:first post (1)

PDHoss (141657) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498188)

LNGNU/Linux (Linux is Not Gnu is not Unix/Linux is not Unix).

Head explodes. Film at 11.

PDHoss

Re:first post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498278)

I pee with the Forrest Newmans ...

Film on your local 10:00 news!

Be Be Boop Boop Be Be Be Boop Boop!

Shipping both? (4, Insightful)

mgkimsal2 (200677) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497681)

Were they going to ship both, or only ship mysql, and have postgres as a 'supported' but not 'shipped' system?

Re:Shipping both? (3, Informative)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497846)

It appears that they will be shipping MySQL as part of the OS distribution however, PostgreSQL is available as part of a separate Software Developer's Kit.

eff pee baby (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497683)

this first post is for jaimeeeee

No choice about the license. (5, Informative)

feinorgh (127281) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497712)

Reading the license term for MySQL it seems pretty clear that Novell has no choice in choosing the license model. According to the terms at the MySQL page, MySQL is only GPL if the whole system is open sourced or GPL:ed. N'est ce pas?

Re:No choice about the license. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497739)

If GPL MySQL required itself to only be packages with other GPL software, it would violate the GPL...
It's the same reason why Pine is not OSI Free Software

Re:No choice about the license. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497741)

I thought the GPL didn't allow putting additional clauses in/around it? Either you use it or not..?

Re:No choice about the license. (5, Interesting)

WilliamX (22300) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497806)

MySQL has always published incorrect information about it means for MySQL to be licensed under the GPL. Much of the text was from when it was published under the free-for-non-commercial use license. They keep this incorrect explanation to encourage people and companies to financially support the company's work.

And while I applaud them seeking financial support, and hope companies who profit from MySQL do support the company and the product's development, their having that false explanation of the GPL licensing and what it means should be removed and replaced with a more honest licensing explanation.

Re:No choice about the license. (4, Interesting)

mattc58 (603979) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497865)

I can verify this post. I am an ISV with a product for MySQL. Their understanding of the licensing issues is confusing at best.

I'm really surprised... (4, Funny)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497882)

I'm surprised that GNU/RMS hasn't rallied the GNU/FSF and explained the GNU/GPL to them.

Re:I'm really surprised... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498090)

No, not GNU/RMS, but RMS/GNU, since it's obvious that there would be no GNU without RMS. Hence RMS/GNU :-)

(for the humor impaired, it's just a joke)

Re:I'm really surprised... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498792)

which in turn would mean that we should call linux RMS/GNU/Linux
However, without Marcella Stallman, there would be no RMS, and this is where really start to develop a problem, I am sure no one wants to call it MS/RMS/GNU/Linux.

Re:No choice about the license. (5, Interesting)

pmineiro (556272) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498551)

Reading the license term for MySQL it seems pretty clear that Novell has no choice in choosing the license model. According to the terms at the MySQL page, MySQL is only GPL if the whole system is open sourced or GPL:ed. N'est ce pas?

Actually this points to an important weakness in the GPL ... it only applies if you link against code.

It is possible, for instance, to write your own mysql client library, which then communicates with the mysql server over a socket. Separate programs, no license infringements, so your code (with your special client library) can be closed source even if you use the mysql GPL license (and, when you distribute your complete product, be sure to include a copy of the mysql source).

However, most people use (link against) the (GPL'd) mysql client library to talk to the mysql server, and that's what gets them.

It is for this reason that I suspect mysql's protocol and client documentation is nonexistant. Contrast to the extensively documented PostgreSQL protocol and client libraries, which is a BSD license product. There is no incentive for the PostgreSQL guys to create impediments to custom engineered client libraries.

-- p

What version? (5, Interesting)

mgkimsal2 (200677) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497715)

It says it'll ship in 2003, but a beta is available.

WHEN will MySQL 4 get out of 'development' and into 'stable'? The infoworld article was already mentioning MySQL 5, but 4 is still alpha/beta, not 'production', and the 3.23 series seems to be progressing still.

Re:What version? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497824)

It might be called 'alpha' or 'beta', but MySQL AB seem to err on the side of caution.

I consider MySQL 4 to be OK for production use.

Re:What version? (5, Interesting)

mgkimsal2 (200677) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497884)

If the developers won't give it the label 'stable', then it's not worth it. Funny, they think it's good enough to win head-to-head competitions via eweek against big db players, but they don't have enough confidence to label it 'stable'. Seems a bit hypocritical. What would the outcry be if MS 'won' benchmarks with 'alpha' software?

Re:What version? free software vs. commercial soft (5, Insightful)

d3xt3r (527989) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498226)

Here lies the differentiation between free software and commercial software. Free software isn't release or production quality until the software developers feel that it is 100% stable. Commercial software is production quanity when the big boss says it's time to make more money with another release.

For example, Win2K was released with 100,000 known bugs. Apache Software Foundation was running their website w/Apache 2.0 beta for over a year before the code went "gold". This is the fundamental difference. Just b/c Microsoft calls it SQL Server 2000 doesn't mean it's gold code.

Re:What version? (3, Interesting)

io333 (574963) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498304)

I've never seen this said before, though I suppose it has been:

In my experience, a program that runs under a Microsoft OS is usually into version 3.x or 4.x until it is anything that could actually be called "stable." And by stable, what comes to mind are programs that don't crash unexpectedly and do what they are actually supposed to do.

Examples under windows of programs that were not really "stable" under at least version 4 are:

Internet Explorer
Microsoft Word
Microsoft Windows
WordPerfect
Eudora
Lotus123
CoolEdit ... the list is nearly endless.

On the other hand, under Linux, I've used software called "beta", and less than version 1.x (heck, sometimes it's like version 0.1alpha) that is just as solid and functional as a 6.x or 7.x version of something in the Microsoft world.

Examples are:
Komba
Mozilla
bbweather
WindowMaker
flux box
mplayer
xine.... again the list is nearly endless.

I'm not quite sure what the philosophy is here except to kind of thumb noses at Winsoftware windows versions and commercial software marketing BS in general... but fact is that I'd trust a 0.3 beta version of some linux program just as much as I'd trust a release verison 9.x of anything under Windows.

But then I wonder if this hurts Linux when it comes to getting JoeAverage to run LinSoftware:

Isn't Joe gonna think that version 6 of Internet Explorer might be better than version 1 of Mozilla?

Re:What version? (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498454)

Don't forget KDE 3.x beta. I've been running it for weeks, and the only crashes I've had are related to the Qt 3.1 beta I'm running under it. (Specifically, some semantics changed that Konqueror doesn't like, and even then it only crashes when closing the program!)

Re:What version? (5, Funny)

scott1853 (194884) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498045)


I don't know why they could be so far behind schedule, they hired John Romero and the project manager for Falcon 4 to help keep them on track. What could have happened?

Re:What version? (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498432)

Well that's the problem! They're using game devleopers to manage a database project! Will MySQL 4.0 outdo Excel and ship with a First Person Shooter easter egg?

Eh? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497749)

Who here reading slashdot would be interested in Novell news? Any well-dressed, socially+sexually active Novell administrator would be caught dead browsing this GPL loving, GNU Hippie LinSUX dump/news site who's readers think the internet and enterprise runs on dull beige PC's?

Well (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498384)

Novell was the best at what it did years ago. Have you ever used Novell at the higher levels of networking? Levels other than creating user accounts and loading net files into memory? It still rocks and has a really large installed user base. And you KNOW that CNE's get laid all the time. Unlike Linux weenies. CNE's have fancy cars, unlike Linux weenies and , drum roll please... CNE's probably are your bosses to this very day! They were playing with UNIX before Linus first got laid. Amazing stuff.

A question from the ignorant (2, Troll)

nugneant (553683) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497755)

This does seem like a pretty big blow to GPL in general - but I figured if anyone would know of good alternatives to Netware, it'd be the dudes at /. - so, honestly - is this the beginning of the end for GPL, or will Novell "correct" their "mistake" (both in quotations, as I don't think I know enough about the behind-the-scenes detail to make a subjective decision like that) with a future update?

Re:A question from the ignorant (5, Insightful)

mmacdona86 (524915) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497828)

This is not really a big issue one way or the other for the GPL. MySQL is available with a GPL license, for use in GPL applications, or with a different license for non-GPL applications. Novell thought that some of their customers might want to build a non-GPL applications with MySQL and Netware, so they gave them that option by supplying the non-GPL license for MySQL. I mean, this makes sense; I would think that adding MySQL with the GPL license to Netware isn't much of a value add.

Re:A question from the ignorant (1)

the_womble (580291) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498235)

MySQL is available with a GPL license, for use in GPL applications, or with a different license for non-GPL applications

What stops you building a non-GPL application with GPL software? You can not make a non-free derivative of the software itself, but there is nothing to stop you building propreietary systems on a GPL platform.

Re:A question from the ignorant (1)

mr_z_beeblebrox (591077) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497918)

but I figured if anyone would know of good alternatives to Netware

Call it a flame if you will, but I've worked with Netware. That said, allow me to reccommend ANYTHING else.

Re:A question from the ignorant (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498004)

MYSQL is a pretty good alternative to Netware. It's a GPL program, and supports an "extended subset" of SQL 99. I think that Slashdot used to run on myslq (???) before they replaced it with Alpha/true64 unix on DEC Reliant servers.

Re:A question from the ignorant (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498317)

Huh? MySQL is a SQL database engine, Netware is a Network Operating System, these are two completley different system, what the hell are you talking about?

So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too) (5, Interesting)

swb (14022) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497765)

I loved Netware 4.11 and think that NDS even then is better than the next two iterations of Active Directory could hope to be.

However, Novell has been doing this "Me too!!!!" thing with bundling stuff for years. Perl, the whole Netscape server, some IBM web thing, etc and it means nothing.

I hate to agree with the trolls, but Novell is dying. There was even an article in the WSJ last Friday about companies trading *below* their hard asset valus, and guess who was on it? Novell was! The Wall Street logic apparently was that trading below asset value was the sign that you were a dead duck and that investors not only didn't think you would do well now, but thought you'd likely go bankrupt, too.

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (2)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497948)

These [yahoo.com] financial results show that although Novell is trading below their values, as you said, they are still strong and perhaps on the road to recovery.

People have cried the Novell is dead/dying mantra since the release of NT 4.0 yet, their still plugging along. Don't count them dead yet.

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (3, Insightful)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498165)

(* People have cried the Novell is dead/dying mantra since the release of NT 4.0 yet, their still plugging along. Don't count them dead yet. *)

Novell is the Apple of Networking. (Well, except for their esthetically ugly screens.)

Too many companies rely on them. Their cash cow may shrink, but will probably never die any more than 360-based mainframes will. At worse, another company will purchase them (IBM? Computer Associates? Some European tech company?)

If Wall Street hates Novell that much, then perhaps I'll purchase some stock...........wait, I have no money for stock purchases due to the last stock poppage and sour tech econ. Bummer.

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (2)

afidel (530433) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498571)

Novell's single sign on may be their saving grace. Their OS business is on hot idle and has been for almost a half decade. They don't have much hope of being a large ecomerce/.net framework type player and their is no compelling reason for people who are not already Novell customers to take up the platform so where do they go from here? Maybe they have a future as a convenienve/IT streamlining application vendor but other than that I don't see where to company is headed and neither can the market.

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (3, Interesting)

swb (14022) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498723)

I think that the info tech world, except for a few places, has largely written them off the same way that Banyan was written off. Wasn't Vines/Streetalk lightyears ahead of anything else at the time?

Novell may have a barely positive operational cash flow (sales revnue - sales cost), but I'd almost bet that they have an overall negative cashflow, especially considering their investment holdings are probably taking a pounding.

I seriously doubt that there will be a Netware 7.

*I* think they should have ported the Netware file/print system to other OSs. Clearly Netware-the-OS tanked when the Internet got hot and people wanted a general purpose OS to run arbitrary server apps (db, web, ftp, mail, etc etc) on. Netware as an OS failed miserably (we tried!) to do those 'other' tasks well, so people bought NT/Unix.

They they found that NT/Unix did file sharing "good enough" and stopped buying Netware. Pretty much end of story.

Novell also fucked over Mac users with NW5, which is why we're on 2k. As awful as it can be, its better than what Novell had at the time for Mac support.

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (0, Insightful)

IAgreeWithThisPost (550896) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498183)

Novell is dead..I was a long time Novell homer....hated NT when it came out..Thought 4.x trounced it every which way..but i realized eventually that Novell was losing quickly..I trashed all netware servers and went 2000.

AD isn't quite NDS, but it works fine..better than what NT offered..and the group policies, when done correctly, are sensational. Tied in with GP software installation and RIS(again, when done correctly), and you can have your shop running smooth as a baby's ass. The biggest problem is having to repackage products for wininstaller..obviously not as many companies are jumping on board as MS had hoped..but it's not a difficult thing, if you do your homework;learn the msi format...too many idiots try and just use the repackaging software and think that's all there is too it.

it puts zenworks to shame that's for sure. and whatever happened with novell's big push to have a java gui(that was slow as molasses). they've failed every way they could, and you can't make mistakes against a powerhouse like MS.

Or a reforming troll. (3, Insightful)

Soko (17987) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498404)

Actually, let me make an educated guess here.

I think they've seen the writing in the wall as far as NetWare goes, and are thinking of taking the best parts of it and porting those parts to Linux. This story [eweek.com] on E-Week shows that they've re-organised thier engineering units to make a "Cross Platform" group with Linux as a specific target. MySQL on NetWare may be the first step in a wholesale change at Novell.

If they can pulll this off, they'll survive - quit nicely too, I think. Dunno if I'd mortgage the house to buy thier stock, but they seem a survivor in the IT world.

Soko

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (1)

Ringlord (82097) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498433)

Sp what if they are doing a "Me to!!!!"? It is better than "Me not!!!!"!

And, as you say NDS really rocks.

Regards,
Ringlord

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (5, Interesting)

alistair (31390) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498607)

One of the main problems Novell have is that the market, and customers to a large extent, always associate them with Netware, which most corporation are activly retiring.

Yet if you look at their full product range they have products such as;
  • Zenworks, probably the best NT / 2000 Desktop managememnt and application installer out there.
  • DirXML - A fantastic meta directory product which has been fully based on XML and XSLT since long before they were fashionable.
  • eDirectory - A fully featured and very capable multi-master directory which runs on NT, Solaris and Linux and knocks AD into a crooked hat yet is fully LDAP complient (more so in many ways than Netscape / Sun's Directory Server).
  • A very nice suite of WEb Services products they recently aquired from Silverstream.

I could go on but the message is clear, the company is packed with good products which it doesn't know how to sell.

Last year I ran an evaluation of all the Meta Directory software out there and DirXML was the clear winner. We bought it and are very happy with it's performance, it certainly should be looked at by anyone who has looked at the Sun ONE or Siemens "equivelents".

My advice to Novell would be that they need to spin off the Netware business to continue developing this and keeping their many millions of existing users happy. The remainder of the business should then be refocused as a Directory Services company. They already almost give away eDirectory, they should make this more official and then when organisations are hooked sell them all the value add products which integrate so nicely with this.
This would also be welcomed by all the organisations who are concerned about Active Directory's single platform nature and the high cost of the Sun ONE Directory and their on|off support for Linux, which Novell have always been very committed too.

Re:So what's new (and a Novell is dying troll, too (3, Informative)

erth64net (47842) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498624)

This is just a me-too tatic by Novell. Many of Novell's previous me-too's have fallen by the wayside as well. One exception at present is Perl.

NetWare ships with Perl 5.00307, an almost useless and stripped down old version (released October 1996 by the Perl folks, and released November 2000 by the NetWare folks) - where you cannot compile your own Modules without a Windows NT machine (95/98 will not be sufficent) Microsoft Visual C 4.2 or later, a CodeWarrior compiler and linker, the "NetWare SDK", "NLM & NetWare Libraries for C" and "NetWare Server Protocol Libraries for C".

To put it as breifly as possible; Perl for NetWare is poorly supported, and does not support basic things such as fork(), chown, syscall, chroot, alarm, and about 20 other functions that are standard with a real, and current Network Operating System (ie: Unix based systems, and to a lesser extent, Win32 systems).

MySQL users on NetWare will very likely fall into the same unsupported trap... History speaks for itself, beware!

Novell needs better marketing (5, Insightful)

Charlton Heston (588481) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497773)

I dislike marketers as much as any programmer, or for that matter, anyone who's had their dinner interrupted by a phone call. But Novell needs better marketing in general. They've got really neat technology, but nobody knows about it. I think that if Novell discovered cold fusion they wouldn't tell anyone. The most they'd do is but a little paper sign on the door of the laboratory saying "cold fusion inside - don't tell anyone."

So, without the proper marketing, I doubt anyone will ever discover that Novell can be a web services platform, or that there's a built-in database that's ready to use.

Re:Novell needs better marketing (1)

L33t-Geek (614706) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497805)

I dont know if you have ever heard of BrainShare but if you search it online you will see that many people are fully aware of the power of Novell. My company installs novell servers for clients frequently and I have noticed lately that Novell servers are starting to be added to new networks and even mixed with NT Servers' networks. So i must say that the release of Netware 6 while not advertised widely definitly didnt go unnoticed. -Geek

Perhaps a new name: Improvell (2)

laetus (45131) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497886)

Sorry to say (and this is not a flame) but the name Novell brings up connotations of losses in the server OS market, losses in the office suite market, etc. Too bad MySQL will now be associated with it.

Maybe you're right, they need better marketing. And I'll start with the suggestion of a name change. Call it: Improvell!

Re:Perhaps a new name: Improvell (2)

warpSpeed (67927) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497990)

Sorry to say (and this is not a flame) but the name Novell brings up connotations of losses in the server OS market, losses in the office suite market, etc. Too bad MySQL will now be associated with it.

I guess that depends on your view of MySQL...

I, for one, do not see this as a problem. Yeah the database is not too bad, but the lack of a clear license is a huge draw back. No thinks, I'll take the truly free alternative.

It's not marketing (2)

jACL (75401) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497946)

Oh, sure, they don't have flashy David Bowie television commercials, etc., but they do a decent amount of marketing. The problem isn't marketing -- the problem is lack of developers.

A couple of years ago, Novell held a developer contest for the best product integrated with NDS. This was at the height of the dotcom boom. The best integrated application award went to a contextless login client extension -- something to make their file system client work better. This was the best showing?

Novell needs developers. They've recently been trying to fix this -- they purchased Silverstream Software [silverstream.com] to add Java development and business logic to their directory service. Their DirXML and Account Management products are expected to benefit the most from it. Hopefully someone will notice...

Re:Novell needs better marketing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498232)

How about a Beowulf cluster of marketers

Why bother to ship MySQL at all? (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497781)

Postgres does everything you could ask for, and it's BSD style licensed?

Don't get me wrong, MySQL is a great piece of software, but if they have a problem with the GPL, I don't think that it's worth buying a commercial MySQL license, when you could use Postgres free of charge.

Why... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497782)

...does mediocrity always win out? MySQL, Linux, Windows, Ford, Chevy, you name it...

In Related News: (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497795)

Microsoft announced that Cardfile would be bundled in their next version of Windows.

Re:In Related News: (1)

CakerX (149266) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497816)

w00t, damn the one feature I missed from 3.1 is back. Now due to the fact that MS OS's seem to rise in file size for no reason other than its the next "version" with little extra features, we can expect it to be somewhere around an extra 50 megs

Re:In Related News: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497889)

'I notice you're trying to create a relational database for a web-based application! Click here to start the create-a-relational-database-for-a-web-based-appli cation wizard!'

Here it is. (4, Interesting)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497803)

Here is Novell's press release [novell.com] on the matter. (man their new web site sucks) It appears that earlier reports of PostgreSQL were inaccurate.

Now, what the press release doesn't say is if Novell plans to remove Pervasive/BTrieve from Netware. Netware has always been deeply steeped in Btrieve (an abomination, in my opinion). Indeed Netware 3 through 6 even use BTrieve for the TCP/IP stack. I can't imagine why but, they do.

Re:Here it is. (2)

ghjm (8918) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497969)

I have not used Netware 5 or 6, but I have certainly done installs of Netware 3 and 4 that did not require btrieve. I think under Netware 3 the documentation (folio) system might have used btrieve, so you got it automatically if you installed any package that contained documentation (including TCP/IP). But btrieve is certainly not required for the actual TCP/IP stack.

Re:Here it is. (2)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498087)

Better check again. Try typing unload btrieve and see all the errors about; Must unload TCP/IP first, must unload IPX/SPX first.

Additionally, BTrieve is also used for the Installed Products databse. On Netware 4.11 load install.nlm and the change back to the console to see the BTrieve already loaded messages. INETCFG too. Also, look for a module called NWMKDE (NetWare MicroKernel Database Engine), I can't remember for sure if 4.11 has this but, it is another name for BTrieve.

Re:Here it is. (1)

DigitalAdrenaline (549986) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498108)

I believe Btrieve was killed off in Version 5 several years ago. It might be available as an add-on, but it isn't there out of the box.

Re:Here it is. (1)

malraid (592373) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498365)

Some services rely on Btrive, DHCP server and the BorderManager cache off the top of my head.

Re:Here it is. (0)

vodka2112 (468331) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498429)

Now, what the press release doesn't say is if Novell plans to remove Pervasive/BTrieve from Netware. Netware has always been deeply steeped in Btrieve (an abomination, in my opinion). Indeed Netware 3 through 6 even use BTrieve for the TCP/IP stack. I can't imagine why but, they do.

BTrieve, IIRC, is used for their i18n databases. If a module (including TCP/IP stack) spews out any messages or logfiles etc, it needs to use BTrieve to access these messages.

BTrieve has been around in netware since the beginning of time, and it will most like remain there till armageddon, both for backward compatibility and because it's "tried and tested".

Also, translating messages into different languages costs a fortune. Those interpreters charge by the word, and even then they come up with stuff like "All your base are belong to us".

Moving away from BTrieve might mean that they will have to re-translate all messages. Considering their financial situation, that doesn't seem to be too good an idea.

BTW, there are amazing netware goodies available inside Novell. When I worked there, we used to port all sorts of stuff to NetWare, "just to see if can be done". The ported NLM's (netware loadable modules) are available on their intranet. I believe an NLM I posted there is still available.

whoa (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4497829)

"Well, I stand up next to a mountain
and I chop it down with the edge of my hand.
Well, I stand up next to a mountain,
I chop it down with the edge of my hand.
Well, I pick up all the pieces and make an island,
Might even raise just a little sand.
'Cause I'm a voodoo chile,
Lord knows I'm a voodoo chile, baby.

I didn't mean to take up all your sweet time,
I'll give it right back to you one of these days.
I said I didn't mean to take up all your sweet time,
I'll give it right back one of these days.
And if I don't meet you no more in this world
Then I'll, I'll meet you in the next one and don't be late, don't be late.
'Cause I'm a voodoo chile, voodoo chile,
Lord knows I'm a voodoo chile, hey hey hey...

I'm a voodoo chile, baby.
And I don't take no for an answer..."

This might have helped Novell three years ago (-1)

Patrick Bateman (175284) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497845)

... when they still had a chance. How many differenct webservers have shipped with NetWare before they finally settled on Apache? Oooh, and now PostgreSQL and MySQL will be supported, four years after they became available on every other NOS platform. Hell, Novell adopted TCP/IP as the native networking protocol six years after everyone else! I wonder what version of Perl ships with NetWare 6? I don't know, but I'd bet money it's crusty and old.

This is neat-o keen, but. (3, Interesting)

Asprin (545477) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497874)


This is neat-o keen, but exactly how does this convince people who are running NT or Linux servers (and who therefore can *already* get MySQL for free) to go with NetWare?

If I were Novell, I'd be more interested in developing a Samba-style SMB server NLM to try to replace NT file and print servers -- look in any current virus catalog under "Klez" for more details...

Look at Netware 6 (5, Informative)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498029)

I were Novell, I'd be more interested in developing a Samba-style SMB server NLM to try to replace NT file and print servers

Netware 6 already has this. I forget their name for it but, it goes under the guise of Any Client or some such. With this feature, Microsoft clients can connect to the Netware 6 servers without the previously required Novell client. The Netware 6 server looks to the client, like a NT server. Netware 6 also supports an NFS like export that allows *nix clients to also connect natively, without the use of Novell client software.

Netware 6 has a lot of really powerful features. What's more, I think that Linuxers would like it because it has a similar feel, even if the commands are different. Hell, it even runs Xwindows with the IceWM.

Re:This is neat-o keen, but. (5, Interesting)

eMilkshake (131623) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498092)

NetWare 6.0 comes with Native File Access, and it's available [novell.com] for NetWare 5.1. It supplies CIFS/AFP/NFS access to NetWare servers.

As much as I used to agree with those who sound the "better product" drum, as a former Novell sysadmin (primary NDS admin for a state university and developer of a YES approved NLM), Novell has lost it. They have too much development in Bangalore (yes, I have participated in a conference call with Bangalore engineers, and yes, they did speak English well, but didn't quite get some concepts on failover I was trying to explain as required) and too much turnover among developer staff. Couple that with a core kernel that's too small to extend (flaws in the kernel prevented effective multi-CPU work are documented on their developer site -- look for NKS) and you have a lean, mean server OS that rocks on a 486, but looks as out of place today as big hair and belts over large sweaters.

Re:This is neat-o keen, but. (1)

That Bajan Guy (25703) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498128)

They already did. Netware 6, Native File Access. Netware servers look like Windows servers to Windows, Appletalk servers to Mac.

Combined with Perl being available, and fully integrated with NDS, as well as a full Apache and Tomcat suite, life is nice. It means my talents extend to yet another platform.

Hell, the Netware 6 boot sequence looks like the init sequence from a linux box.

Samba on Netware. (1)

DigitalAdrenaline (549986) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498148)

Ummm. The samba NLM has been around for half a decade. Developement would hardly be news...

ftp://ca.samba.org/Binary_Packages/novell/

Re:This is neat-o keen, but. (2, Informative)

eGuy (545520) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498175)

As far as a samba server, NetWare 6 also bundles what they call Native File Access Pack. It makes your server appear as a Windows server(CIFS) to windows clients, Mac(AppleTalk) to Mac client or Unix(NFS) to Unix clients. It's also a free download for NetWare 5.

Re:This is neat-o keen, but. (3, Insightful)

kelzer (83087) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498410)

If I were Novell, I'd be more interested in developing a Samba-style SMB server NLM to try to replace NT file and print servers

I've heard a lot of people making that suggestion, including members of the Samba team. The problem is that NetWare's file services are superior to NT's, so Novell isn't so anxious to emulate an NT server.

For example, NetWare has their "salvage" capability, in which deleted files can be restored. It's so powerful that it's been called "poor man's version control." Note for those who are security consious: the deleted files keep the same ACL they had before deletion, so they are never recoverable by somebody who didn't have rights to read them before they were deleted. Furthermore, individual files can be flagged as "purge immediate", and directories can be as well. Finally, the entire feature can be disabled.

Another advantage of NetWare file services is inherited rights, and the inherited rights filter. "Inherited rights" means that if you have a 50 GB disk that's got 175,000 files on it, and you want to grant one person read-rights to every file on the disk, you just grant them the read-right to the root, and you're done. Unlike NT, you don't have to wait 15 minutes for the rights to propagate through the entire filesystem. And if there's a branch of the directory tree that you don't ever want rights to flow into, you can add an inherited rights filter to prevent this from happening.

NetWare drivers also tend to be much more intelligent when copying files across the network. With NT, if you open up a folder that's on a server across the WAN, and copy a bunch of files to another folder on the same server, NT tends to pull the files across the WAN to your workstation, then send them back to the original server. Novell's been aware of and avoided this issue since the mid 1980's, when they first built NCOPY.EXE to avoid the problem in DOS.

If they implemented Samba, they'd lose some of their perceived technical advantage over NT, and they can't really afford to lose what little advantage they have.

What IS Novell?? (2, Interesting)

xtremex (130532) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497955)

I remember needing DOS to install Netware, and it just added networking to DOS apps, etc.
Now, why would somebody use Novell now? Is it a REAL OS? Does it still need DOS/Windows to run? What am I gaining/losing by using Novell instead of a *NIX?

Re:What IS Novell?? (4, Informative)

Magorak (85788) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498053)

Novell has been around a long time and will continue to be around a long time regardless of what any Linux/NT/200 people may think.

The company I work for is a pure Novell shop. We run Groupwise for our email, and plenty of other Novell products and we do extremely well. In fact, Novell even powers our web presence. We will be upgrading from Netware 5 to Netware 6 this year.

It IS a real OS. Standalone server sits in my server room and runs all of it's apps very well. It's a hell of a lot more stable than any 2K/NT box and in many ways, just as stable as a Unix box. I won't say better, but I will say it does a good job.

I hate it when people say that Novell is dead and dying. They've been around a long time and they are still around because they always make a decent product and require very little maintenance, unlike the MS OSes out there.

Re:What IS Novell?? (1)

sputnik73 (579595) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498499)

Is your statement that Netware is "a hell of a lot more stable than any 2K/NT box" based on any type of empirical study or just your personal observations from, what I assume, years of using Netware?

I'm not trying to criticize what you've said but instead just want to get a handle on how you're measuring stability and such. I'm curious because I've found that even an old and antiquated system (i.e. my development box) runs quite stable with 2K. Granted, I don't put a tremendous server load on it and so that may be the reason I am seeing more stability in 2K than you are. This has always been the problem with trying to discuss the stability and performance of operating systems with people - everyone uses their systems differently and so you really can't compare performance without some benchmarking, a few charts, and perhaps a POWERPOINT presentation. ;-) These are things I don't take to cocktail parties and thus I am forced to resort of vague hand-waving.

Thanks for any thought you might have on the subject.

Re:What IS Novell?? (1)

nolife (233813) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498741)

The company I work for is a pure Novell shop.

So WAS the company I work for. We are currently about 50% of the way through a company wide conversion to Exchange/AD environment with W2K severs. I can only hope that our current stability problems are because we are in a transition or a temp lack of admin experience with W2K servers.
I know we NEVER had problems with our incoming mail when that headless Sun box was handling our regions SMTP...

Bottom line is any system will only be as good as those that are maintaining it.

Re:What IS Novell?? (1)

Mantrid (250133) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498063)

It's a network os for servers. And a damn fine one at that. Can't compare it to Linux as I don't have experience with it. But I know I really felt it when we went NT4; the bulk of that changeover was a long string of "what do you mean we can't do 'X' now?"

Re:What IS Novell?? (4, Informative)

krammit (540755) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498237)

Netware in its current incarnation is a top notch server OS. It's got one of, if not the best LDAP implementations available (NDS, eDirectory) that offers integration with all of its products for very easy administration. (Groupwise is an excellent Exchange replacement, minus the constant virus problems). Once its setup, that's it. It does not require constant attention like other server OSes *cough*. It does still load on top of DOS (for reasons I can't understand) but it is in no way a DOS based OS. In fact, it seems to have borrowed quite a bit from Unix in versions 5 and 6.

What you gain: dead easy file/print administration, extensible LDAP framework built right in, excellent reliablity/stability, can be easily (if you read the documentation) performance tuned

What you lose: application support and expensive licensing.

For small to mid size businesses, you could do better with a WinNT or *nix solution, but for large enterprises with massively distributed networks, Netware is an excellent way to go.

Re:What IS Novell?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498773)

Yes, Netware still requires DOS to run - hence it runs on DOS.

does slashdot know what a misnomer is? (2, Informative)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 11 years ago | (#4497980)

The commercial version of MYSQL has two licenses, the one commercial one you buy for support from MYSQL AB and the gpled version covering the orginal gpl led code..

Guys wake up..

Novell asked ofr the commercial version becuase of support issues that they want MYSQL AB to handle..simple as that nothing more its stil has the gpl license as its base..

Like crickets in the forest... (-1, Offtopic)

L. VeGas (580015) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498005)

In related news...
My 90 year-old grandfather announced that from now on he would buy his socks at Penney's.

Whoville/Novell: "We are here! We are here!"
Horton/Everyone: "We don't care! We don't care!"

Great News!!! (5, Informative)

malraid (592373) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498014)

I personally think that these are great news, both MySQL and PostgreSQL(although I really favor PostgreSQL)

Most slashdotters tend to think that NetWare is dying/dead. I feel that this very is far from true. Netware doesn't have the market share that it had some years ago, and it missed the .com revolution ( and also the .com burst by the way)

However I have found many Netware shops that say that they will continue to use it because:
1) it works
2) it's secure (maybe more than Linux, as you can't get Quake 3 to run on Netware yet!)
3) it can be cheaper than Win 2k, specially on large instalations.
4)NDS is acutally useful, compared with Active Directory which in my opinion is pretty much useless.

These shops tend to be in well established bussiness, definetly old-bussiness.

For example, just this morning I landed a consulting job with a large private school (300+ computers) where they run 5 NetWare servers (+1 Solaris) And I'm able to charge more than for a Win2k work, because most geeks think Netware is dead and can't offer support for it.

So go ahead and make it official, NetWare is dead!

License Fees (5, Informative)

Bonker (243350) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498049)

It's worth noting that MySQL commercial licenses... even with very little volume discout (US$395.00/license) are still two orders of magnitude less expensive than MSSQL or Oracle.

Re:License Fees (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498123)

It's also worth noting that MySQL offers two orders of magnitude less in features.

Re:License Fees (5, Informative)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498253)

Then it is also worth noting that PostgreSQL commercial licenses, even with very little volume discount (US $0.00/license) are still infinite orders of magnitude less expensive than MySQL, MSSQL, or Oracle.

Re:License Fees (2, Insightful)

Alarion (263883) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498413)

Yes, and MSSQL and Oracle(and others) offer many many more features, mostly ones that are needed in mission-critical situations.

In all honestly, while I like MySQL - and use it extensively, it really isn't worth more than maybe $99/license, IMO.

With MySQL's notoriety for random table file coruptions, lack of stored procs/triggers, lack of a transaction log that can be used to re-perform lost transactions, etc MySQL should not be used in any sort of enterprise class situation. Save for maybe prototyping systems that will be developed to a Oracle, Sybase, Postgres, etc.

Dead OS with dead DBMS (-1, Troll)

axxackall (579006) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498051)

That's why NetwWre is dead - Novel's managers even cannot see that MySQL is the worst DBMS (after MS Access). Lack of transactional features, poor ACID - it's a shame of open source databases. Same as NetWare is a shame of server operatin systems.

Well, we still have PostgreSQL shipped with every Linux. So, nothing to worry about.

Re:Dead OS with dead DBMS (0, Flamebait)

WetCat (558132) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498285)

Yes... working with MySQL is a hard experience.
The one and only benefit of MySQL is speed.

not quite sure but... (1)

b17bmbr (608864) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498084)

does anybody actually use netware anymore?

Re:not quite sure but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498335)

After a college internship in their Streets Department, I discovered that the City of Philadelphia still does. They scrapped a lot of their Unix servers and set everyone up with a Windows 95 desktop (some of the higher ups have NT4). Everyone has a Novell client, and the network is set up as several NetWare Trees. They don't seem to take advantage of any of the system's features, though, so I'm not sure why they use it instead of the native Windows networking (except perhaps for ease-of-management). But then they invest in bloated Information Management software from Lotus and Microsoft SQL Server databases to replace the old Sybase stuff (while still doing everything in MSOffice 97).

Basically, a city that bleeds money prefers ease-of-use over value, and retains a staff of about a dozen IT people to tread water.

MacOS X 10.2 Server ships with MySQL too (3, Informative)

didiken (93521) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498245)

Hey by the way, MacOS X 10.2 Server ships with MySQL too !

This is because Oracle for Netware is gone? (5, Insightful)

kirkb (158552) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498303)

For years, Novell Netware included a copy of Oracle. Didn't Oracle recently announce that they aren't porting to Netware anymore? That's probably the only reason that Novell has moved to support MySQL and PostgreSQL.

look further than your nose! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498364)

guys, there is more to life than *nix.
look at the acl (file rights)system.
it's THE most advanced in the industry.
i pity *nix and their little group/user rights system. no ldap directory comes close in performance, reliability and management.
try edirectory (even the oldest nds) and then openldap. then you'll know how far ahead it is.
netware rocks! problem is, it started as file and print, no applications. Things are starting to change only now. They ported standard c libraries and have strong java support. that's why open source is welcome on netware. btw; mysql will be available on gpl base from the mysql site. postgresql is still being ported.

Novell Dying (1)

toby360 (524944) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498436)

I'm currently a sysadmin for a Novell/Win2k Network. I'm glad to see Novells finally got a SQLish server option coming out, but really now... Companies like mine already have a sql server running (hence the 2000 part of our network). We're happy where we are, and were not going to migrate to MySQL any time soon because of this. Honestly Novell does this with every single darn thing out there. FINALLY in GroupWise 6 are they supporting NNTP, outlooks been doing that for years! Same with "proper" html email viewing.

Novell's going to die because:

MS Products are actually becoming more secure

Novell has been playing catchup for the last 5 years (yea nds is great, thats it tho.)

Nobody Else creates "novell ready" applications/services like they do for unix and win2k OS's.

MS just integrates better with MS products.

Their patching system is RETARDED, even 3rd party novell applications are half ass. Patches take forever to come out.. One of their patches for a "bug" in groupwise was over 50mb in size.. something is a miss here.

Novell is doomed doomed doomed...

oboy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4498508)


Now that mysql has been announced, are they going to port access next?

This is an odd thing... (2, Insightful)

circusnews (618726) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498710)

There are some very good reasons to use Novell, and there are some very good reasons not to use it, but the availability of MySQL as a reason either way just seems odd.

There is (and has been for a while now) a MySQL NLM for Netware that is under the GPL (sorry, I can't find the URL at the moment) and I recall seeing a PostgreSQL NLM on a 4.11 server a while back as well. While I applaud Novell for adding MySQL as a part of there base package, as it adds some additional out-of-the-box functionality, I don't see this making a dent in there slow decline.

Now, Novell does have some VERY interesting tech, but they don't sell it well, they never have. Lets take GroupWise as an example. It could be an Outlook Killer. It has just about all of the features of Outlook (and Exchange), and in many a better product. However, they don't push it, and they don't encourage people to try new things with it. I would LOVE to see them take a really bold step and release a version of that in the same way Sun did Star Office (OK, like Sun but without all the associated problems...). OOo plus Groupwise plus an easy to use SQL database front end would be a real alternitive to M$. It would also shine a bright light on Novell for a long time, one that could then be used to help them grow again if they played their cards right.

A comparison (1, Flamebait)

randomErr (172078) | more than 11 years ago | (#4498779)

How many people Minix [slashdot.org] as compared to to people who use Novell?

I would image it would be about a 1:1 ratio.
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