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Debian, Past Present & Future

CmdrTaco posted more than 11 years ago | from the i-spell-love-a-p-t dept.

Debian 157

solferino writes "Christoph Lameter, a major guru in the debian project, has put up a very well written talk that he gave earlier this week that addresses debian's past, present and future. He includes a good background history of the project, some interesting sets of figures and projections (30,000 packages by the end of 2004!), a good discussion of the pros/cons of source based distros and his ideas about a new package manager he is developing (uPM). In all a very good read, whether you are just now considering dipping a toe into the debian well-spring or have been drinking from the source for a long time already."

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HOWTO - resign in style (-1, Offtopic)

The_Fire_Horse (552422) | more than 11 years ago | (#4540952)

You work hard as a geek, and take pride in your job. Suddenly, the boss says that you have been reassigned to an assistant to the CEO to type his memo's and look after his PC. You feel sick to the stomach and decide to leave - what is the best way to tell you boss that you've had it? Hi , I'm The_Fire_Horse [] and you might remember me from such posts as "Company Loyalty - HA - only if I work for Playboy", and "The Council workers guide to leaning on shovels"

Today we talk about severe resignations - how to resign with such verve and totality that there is no possible recourse - you need to be completely committed before trying these techniques.

The Big Spender
If you have purchasing rights, then now is the time to go crazy - you're company NEEDS a shitload of CGA monitors, 486 processors and the old faithful dot matrix printer's. Buy 50 of each as 'backup spares' just to be sure.

The Puzzler
rewrite all your documentation notes in pig latin, pure latin, or '1337' speak - just to keep your successor on their toes. Check out all the source code and change every 5th "GREATER THAN" sign to a "LESS THAN" sign in the source code to make things interesting.

The Player
before you go, subscribe your work phone number to the mailing list of every brothel in town, also to the 'notifiy me' phone list for all brewery's, night clubs, etc.

The Black Hole
delete all production data and replace it with the text 'LAST POST'

The Boss's Daughter
Get to know your bosses daughter. Wine her, dine her, seduce her, and then fuck her [with your specially prepared 'Holey Condom', so that she gets pregnant. Mention this to you boss during the monthly team meeting - dont forget to discuss the daughters 'assets' in detail and whether or not she 'takes in the rear'. Discuss this in detail with the rest of the staff and how fucking the boss's daughter is a lot like working on the help desk - both parties get it in the rear. Mention her tits repeatedly - draw diagrams.

The Turd
Spend 3 days eating curries and drinking plenty of beers - refrain from going to the loo, until the last possible minute and then jump up onto the bosses desk and leave your 'mission statement'. Nothing say's "I'm not happy" like a big shit on your bosses desk.

Well, have fun people and good luck with leaving your job, remember that if you follow any one of the above techniques you are bound to have your resignation accepted immediately, if not sooner.
NOTE - You get Bonus points for combining two or more techniques!

Re:HOWTO - resign in style (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541029)

The big spender

How does a $1000 worth of shit quality as a big spender? Sign a fucking 15-year lease for a new corporate HQ. That's a big fucking spender

Where the FUCK are the KDE3 debs??? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541037)

How fucking LONG is this going to take, already??? When are you smug, self-satisfied FUCKING Debian project leaders going to get off the FUCKING dime and get KDE3 out the door? What the FUCK is WRONG WITH YOU???

Re:Where the FUCK are the KDE3 debs??? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541063)

KDE3 is for cocksuckers, little and big alike. If you want a fancy desktop, you'd be better off with winXP Professional. If you aren't a bitch-loser, than you will stay away from both KDE and WinXP, and GNOME also.

P.S. Linux is for little and big cum-guzzling lozers.

Re:HOWTO - resign in style (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541624)

you're company NEEDS

I'm company needs? What the hell does that mean? God, the spelling and grammar of these trolls is even worse than Taco's!

apt (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540953)

apt-get install first-post

Re:apt (-1, Offtopic)

k4biR 5uxXoRs KoX (620872) | more than 11 years ago | (#4540961)

cock goblin! apt-get install cock-goblin! buirn in hell.! apt-get install cockgobbler apt-get install you are a fucking dumbaSSS!!! suck me off! waith to minutes for this!

Re:apt (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540965)

E: Errors while processing: Not allowed by moderators.

Re:apt (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540969)

apt-cache search informative-comments

Slashdot Sexcapades (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540957)

Kyle was a typical Slashdot reader: young, acne-ridden, and full of dreams. And, as a SubwayÂ(TM) Sandwich ArtistÂ(TM), he was charged with the responsibility of closing up the West El Camino Real store. Outside, SUVs sped by in the night.

The official closing time was in ten minutes, but Kyle was already busy wrapping up the rest of the unused processed cheese triangles so he could get outta there right quick. He was daydreaming of playing Micro$oft's "Age of Empires" against his heroes, Hemos and Rob Malda, when he heard the front door close. As he looked up, he saw a forty-something executive in Clairol Tempted Peach® hair and a navy business suit stride in.

"One Veggie-Tastic® sub with extra spicy mustard."

His eyes travelled from the "HP INVENT" brooch on her lapel down to the low-cut gauze passing as her blouse. He could see the outline of a Maidenform® just below the surface.

"The American economy is moving from commodity products to high value-add services, WITH OR WITHOUT YOU! Let's get crackin', Pointdexter!"

Kyle reached for a loaf of oven-fresh® bread, but before he could pick it up, the customer snatched it up and slapped him across his left temple. He reeled from the blow, falling to his knees.

The next instant the customer had lept the counter and got a hold of two fistfulls of his styling-gelled hair. "Sniff momma's coochie!"

Stunned, Kyle lurched forward, shoving his greasy nose into her tight dry-cleaned skirt.


Kyle slipped his head up her skirt and began lapping hungrily. "Age of Empires" would have to wait. Groaning, the customer leaned back onto the countertop, one hand gripping a stray cucumber, the other resting lightly upon her heaving bosoms. She clumsily fumbled at his pants with her feet, managing to get them halfway off. Kyle began to lick and nibble his way down the already moistened slit of her pussy. His tongue catching the rock hard bud of her clitoris with rapid flickering motions, making her hips jerk with pleasure in front of him. They danced vertically in this way until the customer orgasmed, her pussy quite swollen from his ministrations clenching and contracting so that he could actually feel it with his tongue as he slid it inside her.

Suddenly the customer let out an intense scream, bucked forward, and in one deft motion, crammed the cucumber as far as she could into Kyle's rectum!

New Slogan for Debian (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540962)

"It's not the size of your package that matters, it's how many you have."

Re:New Slogan for Debian (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540972)

It's never been about the length, just the girth!

Re:New Slogan for Debian (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540989)

Did somebody say "girth"?!?! I got your girth right here, sweet pants!


      Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
      Reason: what's with all the fucking W's, crotchbrain?.

Re:New Slogan for Debian (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541021)

It's always the girth that rips the pissy to shreds

just what we need another package manager! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540977)

There aren't enough already, really! They will go nicely with the fifteen different types of PIM's available. Also, since this is Debian (pronounced 'WANK'), don't forget to post 500 messages blithering over the fucking installer.

This post was brought to you by the letter "W".


      Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
      Reason: Asscan OSS programmers still haven't fixed the 'black bar' bug in Gnumeric pie graph rendering.

What happens when they run out of Toy Story chars? (3, Funny) (579491) | more than 11 years ago | (#4540978)

I imagine this will be similar to the catastrophic Y2K bug. :)

Re:What happens when they run out of Toy Story cha (3, Funny)

NWT (540003) | more than 11 years ago | (#4540996)

Oh come on, by then we'll have Toy Story 11 with a whole bunch of new funky character-names ...

Re:What happens when they run out of Toy Story cha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541061)

At the rate they're releasing new versions,
that should last another 1,000 years.

Talk about a lead-assed release schedule.

Yea, yea, apt-get and you're up to date.
I'm talking about RELEASE schedules.

Re:What happens when they run out of Toy Story cha (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4542293)

The could start naming versions after pr0n actresses!

30,000 pkgs by 2004? (2, Insightful)

bovril (260284) | more than 11 years ago | (#4540993)

And 100,000 by 2006!!
I guess this means that sarge will be released around 2028...

Re:30,000 pkgs by 2004? (5, Funny)

dfeist (615612) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541004)

640 are plenty for all, I thought...

Re:30,000 pkgs by 2004? (2, Funny)

JollyTX (103289) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541022)

Hey, careful with that joke, it's an antique!

Re:30,000 pkgs by 2004? (3, Funny)

spoonist (32012) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541064)

Not 640, 640k. The actual quote is as follows:
640k should be enough for anybody."
If 640k packages should be enough, then they still have 610,000 packages to go!!

Quit writing about the history of Debian and get to work on those packages!!!

Re:30,000 pkgs by 2004? (1)

Glanz (306204) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541012)

Yes it does!!! That's the year when it will be optimized for i586. Of course, that will be only five years after platforms began to use the i1172.

Re:30,000 pkgs by 2004? (5, Informative)

The J Kid (266953) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541070)

Nope. If you'd read the article you'd've seen that uptill woody they released every year.

The reasons for Woody taking extra long were:
- BIG jump in archs...up to 11, with stuf like X-Windows not actually designed for those archs, but they fixed it!
- Security Patch maintainers where up to there neck in work and it was a bottle neck (remember the planned may release? This was why it was prosponed)
- They only started fixing the above 2 probs after the freeze so that no new stuf could get in.

But thankfully these issues are resolved now, so Sarge should release (ahem) on time. And anyway the PM (Project Manager) of Sarge wants to have cds of testing too.

Truth about linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4540999)

Linux is for little cocksucking faggots. If you know someone who is a linux advocate, please bitch slap them.

Re:Truth about linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541005)

k4biR 5uxXoRs KoX is my name, but i can no longer post because i am being felatiated by cmdr taco and givern a rim-job by your mom, so i've alread y got my 10 daily comments in. so, anyway, bitch slap my cock before i bitch slap your testicles! you fucking cunt!

What about big cocksucking faggots? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541006)

Well? Why leave them out, can't they use linux too?

source distribs (2)

m0i (192134) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541030)

I like the comparison with source based distribs, as if they were 'the challenger' to Debian. It looks like Gentoo is putting pressure! And the uPM new stuff is aimed to address it as well. Things keep moving fast!

For those who need an incentive to try Debian, the keyword is stability; their QA process is what make the distrib lag behind in terms of latest versions, but the benefit is a rock solid platform.

Re:source distribs (5, Informative)

autechre (121980) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541055)

Keep in mind that you can install from source when you really need it. For example, I was still running potato on my servers a while back when AOL broke Everybuddy. Newer versions were out, but Debian only updates packages for security reasons (which is occasionally annoying). Not a problem:

apt-get -b source everybuddy

This will grab the source and Debian modifications, apply the mods, and build a package. You can omit the -b option if you want to customise it.

Some will say that if you do this, you lose the stability provided by Debian's long release cycle, but I disagree. The rest of the system is not less stable because you installed an IM client (which shouldn't be able to hurt anything else, unless there are severe bugs in it). This is not any different than compiling it from source yourself and installing it into /usr/local (except that when you dist-upgrade, you'll get a newer version if one is available).

On the other hand, installing packages from testing or unstable may upgrade libraries, and that could affect your system as a whole (especially if it's libc6). You'll have to weigh the benefits of this if it ever comes up.

Re:source distribs, apt-build (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541428)

apt-build offers exactly what apt-get offers (easy donwload/install, automatic updates), but using sources instead of binaries

Re:source distribs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541724)

the problem is that the next apt-get upgrade will overwrite your "customized" package.

Re:source distribs (4, Insightful)

grumbel (592662) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541062)

For those who need an incentive to try Debian, the keyword is stability; their QA process is what make the distrib lag behind in terms of latest versions, but the benefit is a rock solid platform.

Well, I heard this quite a few times now, but my own experience is quite a bit different. Debian stable is at first old, not stable. I have run in quite a few showstopper bugs that were already fixed in upstream and in unstable but which never made it into stable, since the QA process which makes it quite hard for new upstream to ever make it into stable.

I think the main problem here is that the freeze is globally to all packages instead of local to small package groups, in a lot of cases a package is still heavily under development when the freeze happens and then for month or years it will not get updated, even if the upstream becomes a lot more usable and stable.

Re:source distribs (5, Insightful)

autechre (121980) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541092)

Yes, this is sometimes annoying. One example is Mozilla; for a very long time, we were stuck with M18 in Potato, while new releases were certainly an improvement.

I understand that there are more variables in Debian with all of its supported architectures, and it wouldn't be as easy to simply release updates of later versions as distributions such as Red Hat do; you can't be sure of the impact it will have everywhere, and backporting security fixes is safer.

Perhaps a "mostly harmless" package repository could be created. No, "testing" doesn't count, because the packages in there will often be built against new libraries, and you probably don't want to go there. But this could contain binaries for packages such as Mozilla, which gets updated a lot (1.1 really is much better than 1.0) and would be unwieldy to build from source). These binaries would be built on a potato system. Those who wanted this sort of thing could simply add another line to their apt sources file, and accept the small risk.

It's possible for someone to do this on their own; Adrian Bunk maintained a repository of several updated packages so that 2.4 series kernels could be used on Potato. But I think it would be nice to have this as an official part of Debian. It doesn't sound so great to say, "Oh, yeah, you can do that; just get the packages from $THIS_GUY".

Re:source distribs (2, Informative)

Tolchz (19162) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541242)

Have you tried adding to your /etc/apt/sources.list ?

Usually for me it's a case of "Dang, some flaw in was found"
apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade

And a few minutes later that package is being replaced with a non vulnerable one. The security fixes are very quick for Debian.

I also run stable on a machine at work. It's beein running stable for about 2 years or so now and I've never had a major showstopping bug with it.

Re:source distribs (1)

LinuxHam (52232) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541318)

I am juuuuust getting underway with my first Debian loads in the last coupla months. One a console-only install and just last night, my first Debian install with X. Did you know apt-get install gnome doesn't work but apt-get install kde does?

Anyway, is it a bad idea to run cron-apt with sources pointing to testing? I also found that cron-apt installs with the -d download only option. It's a blow box so I removed the option. I want to see if the maintainers will break my box with a nightly update. And IIRC there are no security updates for testing. Not nitpicking against you, just confirming my findings for my personal situation.

Re:source distribs (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4542057)

I think the main problem here is that the freeze is globally to all packages instead of local to small package groups..

This is false, see /debian-devel-announce-200106/msg00014.html [] .

"The freeze will proceed in four phases: first policy will be frozen, followed by the base system, followed by standard installs, and concluding with the remainder of Debian."

yes they are... (2)

7-Vodka (195504) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541205)

In terms of packages, I just installed a new gentoo system today and there were a total of just over 20k packages to choose from.

Re:source distribs (2)

HiThere (15173) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541825)

Well... maybe. It has seemed to sometimes have package problems in the stable branch. At least apt-get thought so. That was 2 or 3 months ago, right after woody was released, so things may have cleared up by now, but I found it ... disillusioning.

OTOH, I got there via an upgrade from the Progeny distribution (I hate all the detail work of the standard Debian installer) so I may have started from an unexpected place.

I hope that they don't package everything. (5, Interesting)

autechre (121980) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541031)

I've been using Debian for a few years now, after using Red Hat for about 1.5 years. I've really gotten to like it; server updates are easy, and running unstable on my desktop allows me to install many recent things with very little trouble (and no, unstable almost never breaks).

However, I'm not sure that listing absolutely everything should ever be a goal. Having a lot of packages is very good, because it's nice to easily have all of your choices laid out, but it can make it difficult when you're trying to choose software. I can only imagine the horror if they tried to list every CMS or MP3 jukebox (we get _buckets_ of those types of projects submitted to freshmeat, and most are very similar).

On the other hand, people shouldn't necessarily be restricted from putting new packages in Debian just because there are a lot of similar projects, because everyone has different needs. It's a difficult problem, and I'm not sure how/if the project currently deals with it (though most everything I've seen in there seems to be of reasonable quality).

Re:I hope that they don't package everything. (2)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541049)

it's really just how the packages are presented to the user.

maybe somebody could build a tool that would submit the name of every package one user is using into a database, and from database could be assembled a list that could help people looking into what software to get to do a particular job.

but, of course, popular doesn't mean best...

anyways, the way i tend to do it, is to look on the web with google/other searches for a tool to do the job i need done, and _then_ look which of those tools are available in stable/testing/unstable or as .debs from elsewhere.

Re:I hope that they don't package everything. (1)

1110110001 (569602) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542182)

I think the only working solution would be something like detailed categories with good names (not php/postnuke/plugins - this should be under php/cms). A voting in this categories should be made possible so you open php/cms and see "must users found postnuke the best, second rank to phpnuke, also avaible: ..." This should be supported in apt-get too. Sometimes it gets really hard to guess the package name. I'm sure many before me had such ideas, but no one has really done it ...


Short Fuses (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541036)

Debian developers are known to have strong convictions and it is easy to get into some old argument when the buttons of one group or another are pressed.

heh, I didn't know all /. posters were debian developers as well.

How ironic.. (2, Interesting)

joib (70841) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541038)

..that in an article about debian there is this big ad for, yes you guessed it, Microsoft.

More seriously though, UPM looks very cool. Hopefully it will be a success. Although I find it hard to believe that debian would adopt it, maybe that's why he seems to be planning another distro.

profit (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541043)

1. Grow beard 2. Leave your job at AI labs. 3. Forget your hygiene. 4. Support free software that has a logo of your smelly feet. 5. Rant about the name of software that someone else has created and named. 6. ? 7. Profit 8. Rant about the kernel of Debian and make sure they will switch to The HURD kernel. 9. Wake up one morning, realize that The HURD is a piece of shit and.. 10. Shoot yourself.

Why I run Debian (testimonial/rah-rah) (5, Interesting)

intnsred (199771) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541048)

I've run Debian for years, and I've always felt that other distros were better. After all, those other distros get much more press, they've got glitzy widgets and eye candy, and it's hard to resist that.

So about every 6 months I'll hear about a new version or distro and will give them a shot. I'll install them and make an honest effort to use it, rationalizing my choice just like the distro's marketing people want me to. But I always wind up throwing my hands up in disgust and thinking, "How can people use this crap from day to day?!"

Now, with many distros polluting the ideas of free software and open source -- feeding you a GPL license and then their own proprietary license which prevents you from copying CDs and giving them to all your friends or from installing on multiple computers -- there's more reason than ever to use Debian.

Debian's geek appeal is legendary. But now, with Debian's Desktop and Education sub-groups, the old idea of being proud of a geeky install is disappearing. Debian's beta installer is on par with every other distro's -- a fact that thousands of Debian users are eagerly awaiting.

Everyone's heard of apt-get and Debian's package management system. Yes, it's as slick as you've heard. But fewer people realize the huge scope of software available in Debian. I run all my desktop machines with Debian's "unstable" (think "unstable" as in changing; Debian's "unstable" release might have bugs, but there are certainly no more bugs in unstable than in the commercial release distros!). With that I have a huge selection of software -- over 10,000 packages. All of those packages are done by registered developers whose first job is to do it right.

When I read in Linux Journal or somewhere online about a nifty program XYZ123, I just try to install it -- 9 times out of 10 one of Debian's hundreds of developers has already packaged up XYZ123 for Debian. There's a huge advantage of having a distro that is controlled by geeks who like computers and who do this for the fun of it. Debian's developers are into GNU/Linux, and it shows.

On DebianHELP [] we call Debian "militantly free software". Yes, that's what it is. That militant attitude permeates Debian and this is Debian's strong point. I like the fact that Debian people worry about little details in the license agreements. I like the fact that Debian segregates non-free software into its own little slum. I like that Debian has a "social contract" and clear guidelines about what it's interested in and what it's not.

Many times I've often said to myself, "Gee, why are those guys worried about that stupid thing..." (e.g. the old KDE-QT license battles). But time and time again I'm proven wrong as the correct view turns out to be the morally miltant view. Besides turning out a first-rate distro with loads of software, Debian's role as GNU/Linux's moral compass is something we can't afford to lose.

Insightful... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541057)


Re:Why I run Debian (testimonial/rah-rah) (3)

Pengo (28814) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541274)

I agree. I worked at a company with 14 debian boxes and a huge debian based database server. They where quite easy to manage. It is nice and easy when you need a library to compile someting, or don't to compile something because it's just an apt-get away.

I guess I can't imagine running anything but debian on the server side.

The desktop, for me at least, is another story. I guess that I found debian fell short. I do like Gentoo, I get the very latest and greatest.. but, when I am doing a JAVA or Web based product, I find myself using a combination of my (tiBook) .. windows XP and Cygwin using XFree86 X-screening my RedHat server. (Gawd, I know.. it's a sell out from all angles...) Over the years my server/desktop (99% of the time I use remote X server for my work... especially now that I have discovered that -GEM- Eclipse...)

Now, Redhat hasn't been really a choice for mine since the 6.2 days.... but, now with the BlueCurve interface... I must say.. it's just the level of boring I was praying for. The fonts look great after getting them installed, etc. Now, I know I could do all this on Debian.. Admitantly , some of my issues with debian are not debians fault but my own short-commings on knowledge off things like XFree86 Configuration files (biggest ones), seems I remember having a hard time getting certain things to work, like scroll mouse, sound card, etc. I know it's a geek OS, as is most/all linux os's.. but.. I believe that right now, redhat has the desktop figured out ... for me.

I would -LOVE- if Debians desktop distro can be everything that to me that Redhats is. For the first time ever, using redhat, I have actually used a file manager.. Never before have I bothered.. just drop to the bash prompt for generally everything. After sitting on OS X for about 1 1/2 years call me spoiled.. I want my GUI.

anyway, sorry for the rant. I do think you have interesting insight into debian. I am glad you have had such great experiences with it. Your perspective actually inspires me to give it another try... (I have a unused box in the closet).

Maybe give redhat 8 a try, it might raise your bar with what a linux desktop could be. I haven't tried Lycoris or the other 'desktop' offerings, but Redhat seems to have done things right in my book w/8.0.


Re:Why I run Debian (testimonial/rah-rah) (2, Insightful)

Wylfing (144940) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541581)

The desktop, for me at least, is another story. I guess that I found debian fell short.

Hm. Ok, I know I'm being that annoying Usenet guy who says "It works for me!" but here goes: Debian on the desktop works for me. On my recently-assembled work desktop I had a nice, fresh, system on which to try stuff out. I first tried Mandrake 9.0, because I assumed it would be a better desktop choice. After about a day I started over and loaded Debian Woody instead. I think it took me about 1 hour longer to get Woody up and running to a KDE 3.0 desktop, but that included such things as recompiling the kernel for my hardware! (Few things bring more geeky pleasure than making your own kernel .deb.)

Yes Debian is geekier. But there is a good reason everyone keeps using this "refreshing drink of water" metaphor for it. It's like you've never had a satisfying computer-using experience and then you "get" Debian and you go "Ahhhhh..."

Re:Why I run Debian (testimonial/rah-rah) (2)

Pengo (28814) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541789)

Last time I tried Debian on the desktop was Potato, maybe I should give woodie a try. thanks for the feedback.

Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use it (3, Interesting)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541066)

I think this article points out very well the problems with Debian that cause it's extremely slow release cycle.

First is it has way too many packages it tries to support. The articles says 9000 packages for 3.0 Woody. RedHat has something like 1800(I am sure this figure it slightly off) packages in RedHat 8.0 Psyche. So Debian has 5 times has many packages to support. I do think RedHat would do better to support more packages, but not that many more. I might add say abother 200 packages to RedHat which would put them at 2000, still 4.5 times less than Debian.

Second is that Debain tries to support way too many platforms. My personal philisophy is that while it would be nice to have the exact same distribution for every platform it is just impractical. It would help their development greatly if the cut platforms. If they wanted to be logical about it they could probably look at the number of users of each platform and create some minimum number of users to support that platform.

I do think that simplifying package maintaining is a good move, but they are trying to fix the symptom instead of the problem. I applaud them for delaying to make releases extremely stable, but I think some of their maintainers have the wrong idea. One example that comes to mind is the XFree86 maintainer continuing to maintain XFree86 4.1 months after 4.2 had been released.

Another point about Debian has been it's horrible installer. I am hoping the Progency installer does take over and is also improved upon.

I use RedHat and have for years, but I am looking for a new distribution. I am doing so because of bad decesions RedHat has made in my opinion. These include rushing releases to meet a deadline instead of holding back and making it truly stable. They love to talk about their Q/A team, but their touch is very obviously lacking in RedHat 8.0, but at least they aren't as bad as Mandrake Q/A.

Then there is having Havoc Penington as an employee and on top of that having him as a Gnome Developer. He has a philisophy of simplify the user inferace to make it more usable. I agree with this idea, but he takes it way to far. His definition of simplification is dumbing everything down and removing very useful features and settings. Even worse he has convinced many Gnome developers.

I have tried Debian, Sourcer, Mandrake, Gentoo, and even Slackware before RedHat. None were better than RedHat in my opinion. Like when I used Windows, I wish for something better.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

theefer (467185) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541090)

Have you tried Lindows ? ;-)

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541293)

No, I haven't tried Lindows. From what I have heard it doesn't sound like the type of distribution for me, but I might give it a try one of these days.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541133)

There are and will be as many packages and supported
platforms as there are volonters to support them.
I don't see how your whining about it will change that (or how it would help). You can't control a
community effort in that way, nor would a sane person try.

I didn't make him...for you!! (5, Insightful)

autechre (121980) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541148)

If you got that reference, I'm really sorry.

Anyway, please read this: -d evel-200204/msg01343.html

Maybe this will clear up a few things. Debian is supporting these architectures because no other Linux distribution does. As the message states, XFree doesn't even support as many architectures as Debian; the Debian project is how users of those architectures get XFree86 at all.

Maybe you feel that they are not important, but I think that the people using them would disagree. Obviously, there are enough people who use each platform to do the work of porting packages to it. What makes you think that they would turn around and do some other, "more important" work instead if support for their architecture was dropped?

[And isn't this why most hardware manufacturers don't release Linux drivers? Because "most people" use Windows?]

Debian exists as it is for many reasons, and there is nothing else like it. It is not going to change into your idea of the perfect distribution. However, there are several distributions which are addressing some of the "problems" _you_ (and others) have with Debian. Most of these amount to pretty graphical installers and a few other things, and are only for x86. Since that seems to be what you want, why don't you try one of them? IOW, don't complain that Mozilla doesn't have an integrated AIM client; use Netscape instead.

Re:I didn't make him...for you!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541272)

If you got that reference, I'm really sorry.

I just watched that last night. coincidence?

Re:I didn't make him...for you!! (2)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541343)

I have read that message before. The gest is he keeps with the old stuff so he can support all the platforms. As I mentioned above I think this is impractical. I am sure the the people using those non-i386 archs would complain, but there has always been specially distributions for each arch, because they take so much extra work. You mention "other distributions" with the features I want, but I gave a list of distributions I had tried and didn't suit me. You have any actual names to give?

But she gets him anyway! (5, Interesting)

Redline (933) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541680)

Anyway, please read this: ebian-d evel-200204/msg01343.html

A quote from this message sums up exactly in one sentence why debian is worthy of the support and admiration of the community:
"I refuse to treat non-i386 users like second-class citizens."

As a linux-using powerbook owner, I thank you. I can't count how many times I have been told that I am not worthy of consideration because my niche is too small. Thank you debian for extending the useful lifespan of my computer several years while everyone else snorts derisively and tells me to buy a new Mac.

Re:I didn't make him...for you!! (2, Interesting)

sir99 (517110) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542171)

And isn't this why most hardware manufacturers don't release Linux drivers? Because "most people" use Windows?
That's a great argument in regards to Debian's ports. Thanks for mentioning it.

I believe that having so many ports in Debian greatly increases software's robustness, since different architectures' peculiarities can point out flaws in a program's logic. At the same time, most software, once it's been ported to a few architectures, will work on any other new architecture with little or no work, so there is a great cost-benefit tradeoff for adding more ports. Stuff like XFree86 can be an exception, since it's so hardware-specific, but the benefits of porting are probably still worth it. Why else would Linux work on 20 different architectures!?

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

Psiren (6145) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541164)

... These include rushing releases to meet a deadline instead of holding back and making it truly stable.

And yet in the previous paragraph you complain that in Debian X 4.1 is maintained instead of moving to the latest release. Sorry, you can't have both. Either you put up with Debian's delyaed release cycle, with the end result of a stable and well maintained distribution, or you go with Redhat and all the problems that it has.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

Pengo (28814) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541315)

Hmm... i think there has to be a happy medium... not every RedHat release hits that, *cough 7.0*, but they have had fantastic releases that are still in production in our server farm, 6.2.

I have found 8.0 to be a fantastic release, and have had 0 problems thus far.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541362)

No, I believe there is middle ground. I was complaining about redhat rushing releases for deadline, which is a certain problem. Then I complained about Debian using old versions, not necessarily becuase they are more stable, but for their own reasons, that is another problem. I think redhat could easily delay each X.0 release another 2-3 months and get the stability they need. Debian takes an extra year or more.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (1)

Analog Penguin (550933) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541908)

Red Hat also has people who won't eat if they don't meet a schedule. Debian is maintained entirely by people who can only devote extra time to the project--extra time being defined as time that doesn't help support them.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (1)

imroy (755) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541221)

First is it has way too many packages it tries to support...
Second is that Debain tries to support way too many platforms...

...and where is your reasoning for your little piece of insight? You ramble a little about numbers, but nothing that you say (or that I've seen) backs up your assertions that Debian has too many packages or too many platforms. Is there too many bugs? Is it unstable? Is the release cycle too slow? What man, what?

I might point out that you seem to be forgetting that Debian is volunteer-driven. There is no central office that says "we will do this...". If people want to do it, they will do it.
(Yes, there is a central release manager that has final say over what packages and architectures go into the official release. But the decision is made based on stability and other qualities rather than some corporate goal or some such).

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541374)

Yeah, I meant to have Debian's release cycle is too slow as the title, but when I got writing it became broader so I redid the title.

Yes, Debian is volunteer driven, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be managed much better.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (1)

TrentC (11023) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541790)

Yes, Debian is volunteer driven, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be managed much better.

So when are you volunteering?

Jay (=

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (3, Interesting)

bo-eric (263735) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541290)

I can see how it, from a x86 user's perspective, would seem reasonable to drop support for most architectures. 95% of all computers are x86:s, right? But when you're one of those people who use more architectures, it's wonderful to be able to use the same distro on several systems.
I run debian on my TiBook and on my P-III at work (as does everyone there, except for management). It really is a blessing to have the same environment everywhere and that everything works (almost) the same way, whatever computer you're using. Not that I use the more exotic archs, but I definately can understand why it is desirable to support other platforms as long as people are using them.
It definately would be nice if the university (that I go to) would replace their aging Solaris 2.6 installation on their sparcs with woody. But that probably won't happen...

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541391)

Yes, this is from a x86 user perspective. Yes, I know it can be great to have it on every system. I also know what it is like to be in that small percentage that does things differently. Mostly I was ranting, but overall I am was trying to point out Debian could probably be a Wonderful x86 linux distribution that everyone would flock to give the managed the project better. Maybe this could be done while supporting all the current platforms. That would still leave dumping over half the packages which I am sure would improve release speed.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

joib (70841) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542291)

The 9000 packages are one of the main reasons I use debian. Whatever open source program you need, you can be quite sure that it is in debian. Installing the program with all of its dependencies is a zillion times more convenient with apt-get than to hunt around the net for the packages (and possibly compile them).

But undoubtedly you are right, this huge number of packages slows down the release cycle. I don't know how this could be solved. Perhaps some kind of splitting into many sub-distributions, eg. debian-core debian-desktop, debian-server etc., would help somewhat. But then things get complicated when you inevitably get dependencies between the different sub-distros, and you have to integrate them for the release. And debian-core, which the other sub-distros would be built on, would inevitably be a bit older than the rest of the stuff.

Another thing is that everything in debian seems to be happening slow-motion. If you read the mailing-lists, there are endless nitpicking arguments about everything concievable. Democracy isn't about everybody taking part in every single decision. You elect leaders so they can make decision quickly, without everyone having to bother about it, as that doesn't scale. What would happen in society in general if we were to have referendums about every single thing the government decides?

Another angle (5, Interesting)

alext (29323) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541591)

These are really related:

The problem is the combinatorial explosion of testing effort dictated by the support of a large number of packages on a large number of platforms.

To this there's no easy answer. However, I do not believe that the 'competition' will really come from source-based distributions such as Gentoo mentioned above - ultimately the amount of testing to be done is the same, by getting you to compile things yourself, Gentoo makes it no more likely that a combination will actually work.

Ultimately the threat to Linux as a platform is the Dotnet virtual machine - a software platform comprehensive and abstract enough to reduce the n*m testing needed for Linux and Windows today back towards the 'n' of a single platform. Once Dotnet gets established, the relative cost of writing cross-(hardware)-platform applications will plummet and Linux will be unable to catch up.

The only genuinely equivalent technology available to Linux is Java. Therefore the only viable strategy for a group such as Debian, meaning a group that is serious about having broad hardware support and comprehensive package support and some assurance of quality and comptibility, is to embrace Java, encouraging the development of Java applications and supporting the Java VM as comprehensively as possible.

These issues have of course been discussed on /. many times before, including the practicalities of building from C source, the relevance of Mono, standardization of the C Sharp language and the ownership of Java technologies.

To date, the only real counter-arguments that have stood up are those of simple denial, that is, putting off the day where cross-(hardware)-platform compatibility has to be addressed so far into the future that it is likely that Linux will already have become an irrelevance by the time convergence takes place, or the reckless and naive assumption that the open-source community can clone, and will be allowed to clone, the the Dotnet platform in its entirety.

It will be interesting to watch how key development streams such as Debian, KDE, StarOffice etc. attempt to reconcile these conflicting demands. From the perspective of Java developers like me, it's becoming hard to resist the rather depressing conclusion that at least some of these difficulties are self-imposed.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541663)

about the "horrible installer" - you only install debian once, then you use apt-get to upgrade.

so, why do you need a cute gui installer?

text is good, you are supposed to read, not drool over the cute looks of the installer.

after all, it's just an installer, not a girl.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2)

StarHeart (27290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541763)

In a sense we are both spliting hairs. I could live with a text installer and debian could make a graphical installer. Yes, me living with the text installer is easier, but when everyone else has managed to get a graphical installer year ago, I wonder. As for the comment about install once and upgrade forever, I question how well that works. When I have tried upgrading with apt-get before I had problems with upgrading everything, relating to too many dependecies. From what I have heard this is a known problem and people suggest you just incremental upgrade you way the whole way.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (2, Informative)

rendler (141135) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542100)

One example that comes to mind is the XFree86 maintainer continuing to maintain XFree86 4.1 months after 4.2 had been released.
Yes that's because he (Branden) had to port 4.2 to the other platforms that are supported by Debian. As the attached document says, the XFree86 people only produce guaranteed working code for x86 and then it's Debian's job to port it to a huge number of other archetectures. Not only that but there were major bugs in 4.2 that Branden felt he could not release it as-is. Even after all of that he provided experimental debs months before the 4.2 went into unstable. For more info about this past non-issue.

Re:Debian's problems, RedHat sucks, but still use (1)

rendler (141135) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542126)

Err here's that link [] .

Three steps: (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541101)

1. Install debian
2. Apt-get
3. Profit!

Re:Three steps: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541174)

Ooh baby!

Re:Three steps: (0, Troll)

James Skarzinskas (518966) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541379)

It has come to my attention that a more likely series of events would be: 1. Post witless profit joke. 2. Get moderated down.

Extrapolation (4, Funny)

arvindn (542080) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541156)

Umm.. I'm not sure about this exponential extrapolation thingy. By the same logic, they would be supporting something like 120 architectures by 2006 :-)

Re:Extrapolation (1)

loserdave (233584) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541165)

Umm.. I'm not sure about this exponential extrapolation thingy. By the same logic, they would be supporting something like 120 architectures by 2006 :-)

That day will be so sweet.

Possible (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541322)

Don't forget that embedded systems, tablet systems, mainframes, Simputers, etc count as architectures. NetBSD has been ported to 40 architectures. In 4 more years, I expect to see the number of architectures at least double, if not triple.

Attacking debians package structure (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541180)

But... there's something I'm worried about in debian... it's just too simple to apt-update.
If an user has installed an "unofficial" apt-source (are there any people out there which havn't?), a hack of a popular unofficial-deb FTP site can be disastrous.
This is not inherently debian's problem, but this distro makes it the easiest for people to update...
So debian should even stronger encourage the use of signed packages etc.

The future (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541184)

The future sure does look bright for debian. The way I see it, debian went through a huge backend change during the potato-woody release. The number of architures soared and the number of package become increadible. Essentially the developers where forced to automate the entire build process across all platforms. This was hugh, and puts debian in a really good postision going forward. From what I can tell, debian is the only distribution where scripts control so much of the backend in building, distributing, and bug tracking the system.

Now that this change has been accomplished there is alot of "low hanging fuit" for debian to pick.

The installer has been reworked and is currently in early beta testing. the whole thing is now modular to allow for easy porting to different architures, and to to allow for a very flexable install. Most debian developers want to be able to pop in a cd, have it detect most of the hardware, then automatically install baisc packages. The new installer allows for this, while retaining the power to customize or trouble shoot installations.

Also there is the new PGI installer. Version 1.0 is out now. This is as simple as redhat/mandrake installers. It has great hardware detection and set up and gnome desktop.

If you want to try thy hardware detection routines in debian (package discover) then try popping in knoppix 3.0. This is a debian system on a live cd. Pop it in to most PC and the network, x, sound, and usb are all configured.

The desktop is coming to debian. Both gnome2 and kde3 are about to move from experimental to unstable. They should be in sarge for the next stable release. gnome2 will enter this weekend, and kde3 is awaiting the completion of the transition to gcc-3.2, but its ready to roll.

There are now many subprojects that will help puch debian onto the desktop: eg the desktop , the education and the music (demundi) sub projects are all starting to take off.

Debian been my primary desktop for 2.5yrs, since I gave up on redhat. I keep trying other distro, but they are just to inflexable for my needs, and to difficult to maintain. I want something to get my work done, not to continuely tweak the operating system.

PhD elec. eng.

PS for those who think that lindows software warehouse or ximian redcarpet are cool, try kpackage with it confgure to use apt. This is the default in the debian's kde. This combo of kpackage and apt-get is the most powerful and user friendly package installation i''ve ever seen. ( Of couse I personally still use apt from a terminal. :P )


Naughty Taco x (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541229)

Cmdr. Taco gathered me as though I was a child and placed me on his lap. "Shhh," Cmdr. Taco whispered in my ear. His warm breath caused my skin to gooseflesh while Cmdr. Taco slowly rocked me. When my tears were finished, Cmdr. Taco asked, "All better, little one?" I nodded feeling emotionally spent. His lips nuzzled the hollow where his breath had teased. Lightly nipping and licking Cmdr. Taco whispered, "Shall we continue?" Without waiting for me to answer, Cmdr. Taco stood me up holding my forearms when I stumbled shakily. "Take off all of your clothes," Cmdr. Taco slowly inspected me from my swollen lips to torn blouse to thigh highs peeking from under my skirt. "You may leave the stockings on. They remind me of the whore that hid inside you before I made you my own--my sweet, little whore, all mine. So alone out here, with no one to worry about you being gone." Cmdr. Taco nodded his approval when I had the last of my clothes off. I blushed as his eyes touched over every curve and valley of my exposed body. I moved to cover myself, but Cmdr. Taco stopped me. "No! It is mine to look at, mine to use." His fingers ran lightly over my skin. Brushing the underside of my breasts first, then Cmdr. Taco cupped both in his hands. The pads of his thumbs circled my nipples until they hardened even more. A smile curved his lips, finally his right hand lowered and cupped my sex. His middle finger slid easily within my silken folds. "I think someone is enjoying our little game." His finger probed deeper. "Tell me how much you like it."

My tongue felt thick and useless. I could barely breath--thinking was beyond question. I rocked my hips up and back straddling his hand wantonly. I felt my juices seeping running down between his fingers and onto my quivering legs. I opened my mouth and tried to speak but no sound would come forth. My jaw moved woodenly. I nodded my head from side to side trying to explain.

"You dare to disobey me?" Cmdr. Taco asked in disbelief. Cmdr. Taco piled my clothes in my hands.

I was afraid that Cmdr. Taco would send me away for disappointing him. I pleaded with him with my eyes. I finally worked until, "Please" came out.

"Please, what whore?" Cmdr. Taco asked.

"Please, don't make me go." I whispered looking down unable to meet his eyes.

He looked startled for a moment and then laughed. "Let you go? Letting you leave here was the last thing on my mind. I wonder if you would beg to stay knowing what I plan on doing with you--to you?" His voice turned harsh. "Throw your clothes in the fire." I started to question then did as Cmdr. Taco asked. I watched as my clothes kindled and disappeared into ashes. "Do you realize what you have done?" Cmdr. Taco asked. I shook my head no. "The only way you can leave now is as you are." Cmdr. Taco looked up and down my naked body. "I think the town would be shocked to see you walk through town in the buff. Don't you agree? Our perfect little girl naked and wandering the streets, maybe I'll make you do that later. What would they think? Would they see you then as I do? A needy whore begging to be taken--to be possessed fully and completely. Reach down and tell me what you feel." Cmdr. Taco commanded.

I reached down quickly to obey. I needed to fill the need throbbing between my thighs. My palm slid through my sticky tight curls as my fingers brushed my clit than slid into my wetness. Riding the sensations, I watched his face. This man I didn't know, yet the man who knew everything about me.

"What do you feel?" Cmdr. Taco prompted me as though I was a child.

My hips moved of their own volition as I crammed my fingers in and out of my wetness. "I feel wet." I answered.

"What feels wet, my sweet?" Cmdr. Taco questioned.

"My pussy." I answered.

"All of it," Cmdr. Taco said watching my fingers disappear then reappear.

"My pussy feels so wet." I moaned.

"Why is your pussy so wet?" Cmdr. Taco asked pulling me towards him and pulling my fingers from my cunt.

I struggled for an answer. "I'm wet, because I like this."

He brought my fingers to his mouth and slowly sucked them one by one into his mouth thoroughly cleaning each one. His mouth opened and sucked the puddle of wetness in my palm. Cmdr. Taco reached up and pulled me towards him by my nipples. "Here now I taste like you. Taste yourself." My tongue met his, and Cmdr. Taco moved my fingers between our mouths. Our tongues traced my fingers and met in their seams licking each other. The changing textures, the smell of my pussy between us caused me to gush more. Cmdr. Taco moved my feet apart with his foot. Somehow seeing his shoes still on and taking in his fully clothed body made me feel even more naked. Cmdr. Taco ran his hands along the inside of my thighs, and I shivered my pleasure at his touch. I wanted him inside. I wanted him to touch my core. I needed to explode to release the pleasure Cmdr. Taco was building within me. His hands quickly became coated with my stickiness. Cmdr. Taco moved his hands over me, but never where I craved it most. "What makes you this wet?" Cmdr. Taco asked again.

"You do." I answered.

"Do you think flattery will get me to touch your clit, little one?" Cmdr. Taco chuckled.

"Please," I begged.

"Mmmmm, I do have a soft spot for begging, and you begged so prettily earlier." Cmdr. Taco pondered as if considering my request. My hips pressed forward seeking his touch. I had never been this wet before. I was steadily dripping now. My nipples ached; my pussy literally throbbed with need. "You, young lady are making a mess on my carpet."

"I'm sorry," I stammered.

"I think you shall have to be punished for making such a mess with that slutty little pussy of yours. What do you think?" Cmdr. Taco questioned.

"I'm sorry." I repeated. "I can't help it. I need it so much."

"Why do you think it is that you need it so much?" Cmdr. Taco pressed on.

"Because, I like it... because, I'm a dirty slut. I like the way you make me feel. Please touch me there." I begged.

"You are a bad girl. First making a mess on my good carpet, and then begging for me to touch you in such naughty places. You must be taught a lesson I'm afraid. Bend over my lap." Cmdr. Taco commanded.

I quickly hurried hoping Cmdr. Taco would make the throbbing need end. My breasts lay in front of his knee and my legs hung suspended in the air not quite touching the ground. His knees spread, and I felt helpless. His hand reached between my thighs and cupped my sex. I moaned my intense pleasure. "What do you want?" Cmdr. Taco asked.

"Please, please touch me." I implored.

"Touch you where? Cmdr. Taco asked.

"Touch my pussy, please." I begged biting my lip to keep from steadily begging and pleading for the touch I needed so badly.

"Good girl, you are learning. Tell me exactly what you want."

"I want your fingers inside me. I want you to rub my clit."

His hand rubbed over my dripping pussy then moved back to my ass smearing my juices over me. His hand dipped back down and coated once more. Cmdr. Taco rubbed my juices back and forth until my wetness covered me thoroughly. His finger finally sought my clit, and I all but screamed my joy. Cmdr. Taco laughed aloud at my eagerness. Cmdr. Taco circled my now distended clit then rubbed it roughly. His other hand rubbed soft circles on my backside, and then without warning smacked down sharply. I jerked crying out at the unexpected pain. His fingers circled my clit once more. His fingers plucked and twisted my clit as though it was a nipple. Then his wet hand came down once more. Cmdr. Taco slapped my bottom relentlessly. My flesh stung and burned. The wetness made the slaps ring out in the room. I whimpered torn between the peaking pleasure between my legs and the sting of my backside. I felt the walls of my pussy begin to tighten. "That's it my little slut," Cmdr. Taco urged on. "I know you would come like this." His fingers plunged in and out of my pussy as his other hand rained down on reddened behind. "Does it hurt, little one?"

"Yes," I whimpered.

"Do you want me to stop, little one?"

"No." I shook my head.

"Do you know what that means?" Cmdr. Taco asked never slowing his two hands--one sliding in and out, the other slapping up and down faster and faster.

Tears built in my eyes. "I like to be hurt." The blows became harder still my body moved up and back, my breasts swaying and slapping against his leg as Cmdr. Taco rammed roughly in and out of my body.

"Who's slut are you?" Cmdr. Taco asked.

"I'm your slut." I answered.

"What kind of slut are you?" Cmdr. Taco pushed on continuing his twin assault.

"I'm your little pain slut," I cried out as I came gushing even more.

"That's it baby, come hard for me," Cmdr. Taco coaxed running his fingers slowly now in and out coaxing me to come even more. As I lay quivering over his legs, Cmdr. Taco rubbed my bottom praising me. My pussy clenched and released convulsively. "You are so beautiful. You respond so fully." Cmdr. Taco lifted and turned me on his lap facing him. Cmdr. Taco slid his cock into me and held it there filling me. I felt so complete. I tightened around him stroking him without moving. Cmdr. Taco cupped my bottom in his hands and rocked me up and back running his cock in and out of me. Cmdr. Taco would completely fill me, and then withdraw leaving me feeling empty then filling me once more. We rocked slowly together. His mouth covered my neck then my jaw biting lightly. We kissed slowly the contrast from the earlier pell mell rush making it seem even more languid. Minutes stretched by, contended I laid my head on his chest as Cmdr. Taco unhurriedly fucked me. I felt myself building once more, and Cmdr. Taco felt it too. Cmdr. Taco pulled me tighter bouncing me up and down on his cock. Cmdr. Taco turned me and pushed my shoulders to the floor following me to the rug. His hand road the small of my back as my elbows rested on the carpet, and my ass turned up into the air. Cmdr. Taco hesitated a moment looking at my upturned ass before plunging into my pussy. "I'll save your ass for later." Cmdr. Taco promised. The thought of having his cock, any cock in my virgin ass sent me over the edge, and I came. Cmdr. Taco never slowed his pace, but continued to pound relentlessly into my gaping pussy. As I struggled to breath, Cmdr. Taco fucked me without restraint. His cock slammed into me; his balls slapped out a rhythm. Cmdr. Taco no longer spoke, but moaned and groaned his enjoyment. My elbows slipped beneath me, and my face lay pressed onto the rug. My nipples drug up and back on the carpet. The teasing pleasure quickly became pain as my sensitive nipples rubbed faster back and forth. My nipples burnt and stung. My elbows were rug burnt halfway to my forearm. When Cmdr. Taco came, I felt the hot wet splash of his come inside me, and it set off another wave of pleasure. Cmdr. Taco drew out and rubbed the sticky remains of his come on my asshole. "Later." Cmdr. Taco promised watching the gobs of come run along the crack of my ass. I lay gasping on the rug feeling thoroughly used. Cmdr. Taco ran his finger along the crack of my ass. "You are just so tempting, little one. Your mouth was so eager; your pussy was so wet, so hot, and now that sweet little ass of your is calling to me. Do you want to be my three hole girl?"

He sat on the floor and leaned back on the sofa. "Come here, little one." Cmdr. Taco beckoned. I turned and crawled towards him. "Take off my shoes." Cmdr. Taco ordered. I turned my ass towards him once more and untied his shoes and pulled them from his feet. His socks followed. I felt his hand on my ass and tensed as his finger slid down my crack and circled my asshole. I clenched without meaning to, and Cmdr. Taco sighed. Cmdr. Taco lifted and slid his pants and underwear down and off. Cmdr. Taco pulled me back towards his lap by the hair. I lay curled between his legs, my head resting on his thigh while Cmdr. Taco slowly stroked my hair. My face was inches from his cock, and I watched fascinated as his cock twitched and more come slowly trickled down the bulbous darkened head. My tongue involuntarily jutted across my lips as I thought of tasting his come. My action didn't go unmissed. "I'd hate to disappoint a lady." Mr. Kelly said sneering on the word lady. Cmdr. Taco grabbed a handful of my hair. I watched as another glob dropped from his head and fell into the dark matted hair at the base of his penis. His rough jerk reminded me to pay attention to him, and I quickly moved where Cmdr. Taco directed. Cmdr. Taco violently towed my head upward. Staring directly into my eyes, Cmdr. Taco threatened, "Keep that cat tongue in your mouth, or I will teach you what real pain is about." I nodded my compliance. "Say it!" Cmdr. Taco ground out impatiently.

"I'll...I'll keep my little cat tongue in my mouth." I promised.

"Yes, you will." Mr. Kelly nodded. Instead of the licking and lapping up of used come that I craved, Cmdr. Taco held my head firmly between his hands and rubbed my face in the gooey remains of our release. The quickly cooling come coated my entire face. Cmdr. Taco dragged first one cheek then the other through the puddle of sperm. Then face first, up and down his spent cock. I felt it begin to harden beneath me. The temptation to open my mouth--to taste was so great that I clenched me jaw against it. More than the threatened pain, I didn't want to displease Mr. Taco. I wanted to please him more than I wanted to gratify my longing for come. I felt his seed spread through my eyebrows and eyelashes and begin to stiffen as it dried. The smell of his arousal was overwhelming, and I felt the familiar tightening in my body begin. When Cmdr. Taco was finally finished, Cmdr. Taco lifted me up into his arms. Cmdr. Taco smiled his satisfaction. "You look pretty covered in my come. I'll always remember you this way." x

Debian is so great! (-1, Flamebait)

lousyd (459028) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541234)

"Debian rocks because..."

"Debian is so great because..."

"Debian is just fantastic because..."

"Debian does this right: ..."

Gentoo []


The problem is right there in the numbers (5, Insightful)

iiioxx (610652) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541247)

If you look at that nifty chart provided at the beginning of the paper, you can easily see that the release time for stable is stretching out further and further as more packages and architectures are added to the fold. At 9,000 packages and 11 architectures, it took 2 YEARS to ship a stable release. If they are right, and 2004 will bring 30,000 packages (and probably another arch or two), how long is the release cycle going to stretch out to? And will people tolerate that long between stables? Look at the grumbling and outcry about the delay in getting Woody out the door.

I find it very interesting that the article would point out several times how difficult it is to maintain all of those packages and the diffs as they are updated, then point out how using a source-based distribution makes that kind of thing much easier. And yet, the author seems to suggest that source-based distros are somehow not as feasible as binary-based distros. He even goes on to call source-based distros "immature". Perhaps in the Linux world, but how long has FreeBSD been around? It's okay to borrow ideas from other groups when those ideas seem to be working. I think that the Gentoo project has done a great job in taking the idea of a "ports" system, addressing the shortcomings, and putting a workable source distribution system on the Linux platform.

In my mind, if Debian is going to continue scaling to 5-digit package listings, the project might want to look into the possible benefits of switching to a source-based distribution system. Look at what Gentoo has done, address any shortcomings, and develop a better source distribution system. Doing it the current way with 30,000 packages to maintain, we might not see Debian 4.0 until 2010. And there are probably a lot of people who can't or won't wait that long.

Re:The problem is right there in the numbers (1)

FrozedSolid (201777) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541346)

He even goes on to call source-based distros "immature". Perhaps in the Linux world, but how long has FreeBSD been around? It's okay to borrow ideas from other groups when those ideas seem to be working.

ahhh wrong button (2, Funny)

FrozedSolid (201777) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541376)

I meant to say...
He even goes on to call source-based distros "immature". Perhaps in the Linux world, but how long has FreeBSD been around? It's okay to borrow ideas from other groups when those ideas seem to be working.
I'm pretty sure FreeBSD offers a set of binaries alongside the ports tree. Gentoo offers only the binaries required to compile the base system and then proceeds to compile it, and everything else, from scratch. Everything is optimized and whatnot, and it's probably easier to maintain the distro since there's no need for the developers to compile the binaries. The downside is it's slow to install/upgrade pkgs, especially if you've compiled glibc 3 times because it's been updated quickly. Also, occasinally I'll find things that fail to compile in the tree.

Re:ahhh wrong button (1)

iiioxx (610652) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541455)

You are right, FreeBSD does also offer a binary distribution for x86 and Alpha, and they offer the choice of both packages and ports. Most new installations will be done via binary install, but from then on maintained with source-built updates. But I was more referring to FreeBSD as a model of how source-distribution has been proven to work (and isn't all that immature).

As to Gentoo, I know there was talk at one time of doing a pre-built binary distribution to simplify installation. I don't know if this was ever done, or if it's even still on the agenda.

Re:ahhh wrong button (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541707)

When you download the Gentoo install CDs, it comes with a binary installation compiled for the 686 processor, for a speedy install.

Re:ahhh wrong button (1)

sydneyfong (410107) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541848)

it's probably easier to maintain the distro since there's no need for the developers to compile the binaries.

No, it's actually harder. The maintainers still have to compile the binaries, since they have to make sure it compiles and runs as expected before they release it. And unlike binary distros, they have to make sure it compiles with different optimizations and options, resulting in even more work.

Re:The problem is right there in the numbers (3, Insightful)

Nerant (71826) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541732)

Source based distributions won't solve the numbers problem, that namely you still need someone to package up the software you want in their equivalent of a .deb or .rpm. You still need people to test the building, potential library incompatabilities etc etc.

Re:The problem is right there in the numbers (4, Interesting)

7-Vodka (195504) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541962)

well, the difference is the cost of making a source package (just instructions) is much lower then that of making binary packages. And in the end, instead of being stuck with one package which has dependencies depending on how the maintainer built it, you end up with a recipy where the user can choose whether he wants certain dependencies or not.

All I know is that making a gentoo package is a piece of cake, while making a debian package and maintaining can be hell on earth.

Re:The problem is right there in the numbers (2, Insightful)

crywolf (445243) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541910)

The biggest problem is that they have a central repository, where all packages are held. This is great for all important packages, but there's a lot of stuff that could be split off into auxillary repositories and maintained separately. Things like bash, ssh, and apache should be in the central repository. Games, IM clients, and media players are examples of extra stuff that can be updated at any time. A good division is whether or not you might use it on a server. I don't think this would overly complicate things; this kind of division would only be needed for Stable.

Re:The problem is right there in the numbers (2)

PigleT (28894) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541936)

"if Debian is going to continue scaling to 5-digit package listings, the project might want to look into the possible benefits of switching to a source-based distribution system."

I'm not convinced about that; as someone's already said, the whole reason for doing it this binary way is to have traceable versions of packages so Manglement can be happy - and of course you lose out on ./configure-ability as well, which is unfortunate. (I *want* to be able to enable ipv6 across the board; or to choose to build teapop with/out mysql hooks... not to be dependent on debian's package choices!)

"Doing it the current way with 30,000 packages to maintain, we might not see Debian 4.0 until 2010. And there are probably a lot of people who can't or won't wait that long."

The options seem simple to me. Either sit it out and wait, or track Testing daily, or contribute time and expertise to helping the cause (it's not forbidden, y'know!), or go elsewhere. I'm not very inclined to agree with the position that debian should somehow change a very flexible working system just for the impatient.

They need more spreadsheet debs... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541332)

...since figures have been done in M$ Excel... ;)

I love lunix (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4541340)

and I got lotes of chicxors

Red Hat users - try apt-rpm (3, Interesting)

ahornby (1734) | more than 11 years ago | (#4541771)

Its a really handy tool ported from debian. See []

Now if only Red Hat would adopt it instead of up2date...

Re:Red Hat users - try apt-rpm (3, Insightful)

Tolleman (606762) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542046)

Tought, it's not the apt program that makes apt so good. its the package maintainers.

Data fraud (5, Insightful)

epukinsk (120536) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542245)

I like how he makes utterly false claims about his data based on his misleading graphs.

Look at his debian growth [] graph. He conveniently skips the year 2001, making it look like the growth in recent years is something other than linear. He even states "Note that the number of packages seems to be growing exponentially."

The truth is, he's crammed two years of growth into a one year slot on the graph, making it appear to be accellerating. In actuality, if you imagine that growth spread over two years (as it actually is) it looks damn linear.

I guess even volunteers without corporate agendas are subject to fradulent data analysis.


New apt features in woody (Debian 3.0) (3, Interesting)

yasa (228596) | more than 11 years ago | (#4542320)

There is an article [] in the german Linux Magazin [] that gives some explanation about new 'version mixing', 'downgrading' possibilities in the new apt software under 'woody' (sorry only german language). So you can keep your base system stable and add some additional software from 'testing' or 'unstable', or you can try the 'testing/unstable' release, and if those releases are too buggy, you can downgrade to 'woody' again.

- Yasa
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