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10.2.2 Is Coming

Hemos posted more than 11 years ago | from the upgrades-continue dept.

OS X 64

stoffel writes "According to this article on spymac retailers just received the 10.2.2 update to Mac OS X, which features an updated file system and improvements to FTP, NFS, and Print Services ... too bad you can't set the software update utility to check every minute."

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64 comments

Correct me if I'm wrong (1)

DiscoOnTheSide (544139) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642553)

But wouldn't the journaling file system thing only be useful to those who format their drive with said journaling file system? Last time I checked you could just "upgrade" from ext2 to ext3...*shrug* just a thought.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (3, Informative)

Ranger Rick (197) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642828)

ext2 and ext3 are identical on-disk, except ext3 has a journal file. Apple's HFS+ journaling is apparently similar, in that all you need to do is run a command to enable journaling on a disk, without reformatting.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (4, Informative)

heliocentric (74613) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642878)

I don't know about MAC-land, but I do know linux land. You can boot a cleanly unmounted ext3 under ext2 (if it's not clean, do e2fsck).

To mount something as ext3 you need to run:

tune2fs -j /dev/hdaX

on it first. This can be done on an unmounted or on a mounted filesystem. If you create the journal on a mounted filesystem you will see a .journal file. Don't try to delete this and don't back this up or restore it from backup! If you run tune2fs -j on an unmounted partition an unvisible journal file will be created.
Now you can mount the filesystem as ext3 using:

mount -t ext3 /dev/hdaX /mnt/somewhere

Of note, this info was shamlessly stolen from http://batleth.sapienti-sat.org/projects/FAQs/ext3 -faq.html [sapienti-sat.org] and is a good FAQ for those who are not down and jiggy with ext3.

Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643428)

> If you create the journal on a mounted filesystem you will see a .journal file. Don't try to delete this and don't back this up or restore it from backup! If you run tune2fs -j on an unmounted partition an unvisible journal file will be created.

I believe the part about the .journal file is out of date; I think the current version of tune2fs makes an invisible journal file regardless of the mount status of the target partition.

Terminal my ass (2, Informative)

Mikey-San (582838) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642567)

From SpyMac:

"The most anticipated addition to 10.2.2 is File Journaling, which is off by default and can only be turned on via the Terminal."

Um, no. The journaled file system will not be enabled by default, true, but partially because it requires you to change from "HFS+" to "HFS+ (Journaled)" in Disk Utility.

In other words, no formatty, no journaly.

I, of course, could be wrong, but I remember seeing a screenshot of the updated Disk Utility window a few weeks ago, and "HFS+ (Journaled)" was a new option for formatting.

Never mind the fact that 10.2.2 getting closer and closer--/really/ close at this point--is essentially common knowledge, anyway. SpyMac has nothing new here.

-/-

Yes, you are wrong (5, Informative)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642715)

The GUI to enable journaling in Disk Utility will only be exposed on Mac OS X Server 10.2.2. The option will NOT be present in Disk Utility on Mac OS X 10.2.2 (non-Server). Thus, the only way to enable it on non-Server is to use:

sudo diskutil enableJournal [volume]

And you don't have to format to enable it.

Re:Yes, you are wrong (1)

Mikey-San (582838) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642995)

Oooh. Was not aware they're planning on adding that option only in 10.2.2 Server's Disk Utility's GUI.

Bummer. :-(

Ah well, as long as there's $YOUR_PREFERRED_SHELL , everything's cool. :-)

-/-

Re:Yes, you are wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4645399)

Open mouth, insert foot.

How does it taste?

Re:Yes, you are wrong (5, Informative)

Draoi (99421) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643061)

I just ran it;
[dhcp1i174:build] pcassidy# diskutil enableJournal /
Allocated 8192K for journal file.
Journaling has been enabled on /
.... and ....
[dhcp1i174:build] pcassidy# diskutil information /
Device Node: /dev/disk0s9
Device Identifier: disk0s9
Mount Point: /
Volume Name: Falcon

File System: HFS+ (Journaled)
Partition Type: Apple_HFS
Media Type: Generic
Protocol: ATA

Total Size: 18.6 GB
Free Space: 8.2 GB

Read Only: No
Ejectable: No
Cool!

Re:Yes, you are wrong (1)

Mikey-San (582838) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643210)

Very cool, indeed!

Question to those who know: What happens if you turn journaling off, if anything at all?

-/-

Re:Yes, you are wrong (3, Informative)

Draoi (99421) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644687)

Let's see ....
[dhcp1i174:build] pcassidy# diskutil disableJournal /
Journaling disabled on /
Journaling has been disabled on /
That's all. Exciting stuff .... ;-)

question (2)

geek (5680) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644072)

does this need to be done after each reboot or does it stay permanent?

Re:question (3, Informative)

Draoi (99421) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644661)

Permanent! You can turn it back off at any time with 'diskutil disableJournal /' & back off it goes.

Not sure what use this is to the average single-small-drive user other than the fast reboot after a dodgy shutdown. I tried this & fsck automatically does journal replays (and FAST!)

Re:question (2)

Elwood P Dowd (16933) | more than 11 years ago | (#4651659)

For some reason my FS's dirty bit gets set often when I do a regular shutdown.

Some day I'll reformat my drive, but 'till then, this is a great time saver for me.

Re:Terminal my ass [Force Format to get Journal?] (1)

tyrione (134248) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642970)

If you had to format to get journaling you wouldn't have such an option via Software Update now would you?


Me thinks you'd have to get a new CD and during the installation select Journaling ala Linux does with ReiserFS.

Software Update (5, Funny)

tweder (22759) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642642)

...Too bad you can't set the software update utility to check every minute...

Um, tell me again why you can't just make a cron job to run "softwareupdate" every minute?

Jeez.

Re:Software Update (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4642912)

Because he's a mac user, it would require independent thought to do that. If KING STEVE JOBS had decreed you could do that, there would be a 5"x5" throbbing blue button that says "CLICK HERE TO ENABLE SOFTWARE UPDATE EVERY MINUTE" on it... otherwise it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Java 1.4.1 included? (2)

Adam Fisk (536262) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642910)

Anyone know if this release includes the 1.4.1 implementation of Java that's been in beta for about a month?

Re:Java 1.4.1 included? (2)

2starr (202647) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644419)

1.4.1 is still in "Developer Preview" mode. I can't tell you much because I'm under NDA, but suffice it to say that "beta" means "feature complete" and it's not beta-ready yet.

Re:Java 1.4.1 included? (1)

flamingnight (234353) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644426)

You could just post as an AC, and from a library or other public place if you're that paranoid.

Raid 5, the missing feature (5, Informative)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642911)

Journalling will be great. especially on the disk servers with 480GB worth of storage. But what the Xserves are missing is raid 5. I was pretty upset when I discovered that they only came with raid1 and raid0.

the missing raid mode is worse than it seems. The mac xserves come with 4 big IDE disks. If you want to you want the Xserve to play nice in a unix environment then its a good idea to format the disks UFS. (you dont have to, NFS works fine with HFS+, but you risk screwing yourself with the file name case insensitivity of the mac. A rare event since most people dont have important files that differ in name only in their case but it's lurking.

But wait! you cant format the whole thing UFS becausesome of the mac apps break unless they are on HFS+. So this means you need to format atleast one of the disks HFS for the OS and apps. that leaves three disks. But in RAID 1, you cant use an odd number of disks. So that leaves two disks for raid 1 UFS.

Thus the best you can do is 120GB HFS+ Raid 1 and 120GB UFS Raid 1. So out of four disks the most you can get is 120GB UFS redundant storage. Ah you say, why not just make a small HFS+ partition and let the rest be UFS. Well apple does not yet support partitioning a disk with different File systems. Thus you cant split the disk into UFS and HFS+ partitions.

Two companies are promised a partionalble raid 5 system (Xraid and NXraid) but both suddenly announced delayed shippments. My guess is they are trying to incoporate this new journaling system.

I spoke to apple about this several times. It was hinted to me to keep watching because big things were coming. I suspect these are the Journalling FS and and an outboard mass storage disk sytem. but that's a conjecture.

That's the bad news. The good news is that these Xserves are otherwise a very good deal. The throughput is better than comparably priced linux systems. Also they occupy only 1U but hold 480GB of hot swapable storage. Yes there are some NAS systems that are 1U but they are about 10 X slower in throughput, not to mention that they dont support as many services as the macs (LDAP, NFS, SAMBA, SSH, SCP, FTP, MAIL server, RSYNC,NET info, Net boot ...). The macs have dual Gig-E too. ANd in a very nice move Apple will sell you a spare parts kit with everyhing you are likely to need to fix a deadXSERVE in the field. Plus 24hour tech support.

the other nice thing about the Xserve is the construction. In addition to tool-free hot swap drives, the entire chasis slides out to the front revealing everything with no screws to undo or panels to remove. It's a clever design lacking the usual add-on slider rails of your gneric linux boxes. There's even a firewire port on the front for quick access. Another nice feature is that you dont need a terminal to set them up, they will auotmatically find the administration computer on any DNS system. And if you need to have a terminal attached, you can buy a UPS based KVM switch rather then the usual clumsy Video/mouse/keyboard KVMs.

Anyhow the bottom line is this as soon as a partionalble journaled raid 5 system is avaliable the Xserves will be one of the least expensivie full featured HIGH QUALITY 1U half terrabyte disk servers you can own. (note I said High quality). I just wish they would hurry up since I have two of these cooling their heels waiting for raid 5.

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (3, Informative)

susehat (558997) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642966)

um, dude, you can have HFS+ and UFS partitions on disk. I've done it. I had my iBook running HFS+ and two UFS partitions for months before I decided I didn't need the HFS+ and went full UFS with Jaguar. I don't know if maybe the software RAID screws up with mixed partitions, but hey, I don't have an Xserve to play with :-( [though 10.1 server is good for a lot on the iBook]

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (3, Interesting)

babbage (61057) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642990)

Well apple does not yet support partitioning a disk with different File systems.
FYI, I was running 10.0 on an iMac which I had split into multiple partitions, of which one was UFS and the others were HFS+. This was all with standard tools -- the installer let me do it so I just did it. I've since switched to all HFS+, but I don't see why Apple would have removed the functionality.

So -- have you actually tried it or are you just spouting off?

Sorry you are wrong: raid cannot be partioned (1, Troll)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643557)

No dumbo, you are the one mounting off. You can't mix partitons on a raid server. Try it before you post.

Re:Sorry you are wrong: raid cannot be partioned (2)

babbage (61057) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644336)

Thank you for the pointless anger. It was both informative and stimulating. That said, if you'll recall, the point I was objecting to was that "you can't partition a disc with multiple file systems using Apple's tools." This is patently untrue and I personally have done this. It seemed to me -- and still does -- that if you had a detail like this wrong, maybe the larger point was questionable as well. But in the end, I'm not the one to say so -- I didn't say anything at all about what works or doesn't in a RAID array. That's not an area of expertise or even more than passing familiarity to me, so I'd rather not be drawn into an argument about it. If you say RAID is broken and no one can dispute you, fine, but at least make sure that your argument rests on a sturdy foundation & the supporting points you use actually support you. This time around, they didn't.

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (3, Insightful)

nachoman (87476) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643436)

Most 1U racks don't support Raid 5. Dell's 1Us don't (low end). That is the line I see Apple's product competing with.

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (2, Informative)

Matty_ (74368) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644523)

The only Dell 1U server which does not support RAID5 is the PowerEdge 350. The 1650 and up support RAID5, if you pay for it.

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (3, Interesting)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643523)

Contrary to the two preceeding reply, You CANNOT mix UFS and HFS+ partitions on the same raid drive set using apple tools. The fools who said you could did not actually try to do this else thay would know.

The confusion undoubtedly comes from the fact that you can mix a UFS and HFS+ partition on a single non-raid drive. But you CANNOT DO IT ON A RAID 1 System. end of story. Note this is a limitation of the apple tools not the RAID system.

Dont you just love the way the fools above insiunuate that the poster is an idiot "mouthing off". Sheesh, what dorks.

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (2, Insightful)

AlistairMcMillan (230321) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643890)

Hey goombah99 relax a bit.

You said and I quote,


Well apple does not yet support partitioning a disk with different File systems.


You didn't explicitly say you meant only on a RAID system. Hence the confusion.

BTW Resorting to calling them "fools" twice and "dorks" doesn't help your credibility.

Re:Raid 5, the missing feature (2, Informative)

Into The White (560733) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644029)

Sounds like you might want to look into the XRaid when it's finally released. It will have 14 ATA drives, each on an independent bus, and it will support hardware RAID of the sort you're interested in, if I remember correctly. Sorry I can't find much info on it right now, but when the XServe was introduced, Jobs specifically stated that the XRAID would be available late 2002.

Can you mirror 2or more xserves? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4645830)

I was wondering about this. If you stipe the drives in 2 seperate xserves can the 2 xserves be set to mirror automatically. I would want to do this to have a very fast file server with redundancy.

No you cannot mirror 2or more xserves? (2)

goombah99 (560566) | more than 11 years ago | (#4646943)

There's no way to stripe across file systems with apples File system tools. Disk utility only makes raid sets out of the physical disks on the system and does not see disks on other computers.

I Sure Hope They Fixed WINS (5, Interesting)

good soldier svejk (571730) | more than 11 years ago | (#4642937)


Apple claims CIFS compatibility, but they horribly broke WINS in their Samba implementation. If you add a WINS server you can't browse across subnets. All you can see is the WINS server itself. If you remove WINS you can browse your local subnet normally.

For some reason, I seem to be the only person who cares about this. I have never seen it mentioned and nobody responds when I post about it. My local Apple Tech rep didn't even know aout it. I did find it documented in this technote. [apple.com]

Re:I Sure Hope They Fixed WINS (1)

repetty (260322) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644147)

For some reason, I seem to be the only person who cares about this.

Don't feel bad.

I had five hard disks on three identical computers wiped clean within two days of each other by a defect in the Mac OS X operating system. Well, they weren't actually wiped clean, which makes everything all the more interesting.

Actually, every file -- including all system files -- where deleted from the hard disk, but every folder (thousands of them) remained in tact.

Very weird. And no one cared a bit. --Richard

Re:I Sure Hope They Fixed WINS (1)

Ster (556540) | more than 11 years ago | (#4645067)

That sounds pretty serious. Can you give us details?

OS version (w/ build number)
any services/daemons you had running
any apps you had running
etc.

I've never heard of this before, and since I'm going to be doing support for a moderately large OS X lab in the near future, I'd like to know more.

Thanks,

Ster

Re:I Sure Hope They Fixed WINS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4645239)

Sounds familiar to me. Though in my case it only affected Firewire drives and was from running Final Cut Pro 3.0 under Mac OS X 10.1.x. As if it was trying to communicate with my DV bridge and instead wrote data onto a random Firewire device, blowing away the partition table and root directory on the affected drive. (If it was the same drive upon which FCP 3.0 was installed, it would also hang a long time as it discovered it just blew itself away.)

Upgrading to 10.2 solved the problem.

and how much does this "Service Pack" cost? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643159)

$129 to go from 10.1 - 10.2, this will probably be what, $79? EVen better than last time now you're buying features that aren't even enabled! I wonder what they've taken out with this release? In 10.2 they took out the ability to make cd-r's that are readable on windows machines (switch to mac -> don't switch back), this time around you probably can't connect to web sites that run IIS.

Re:and how much does this "Service Pack" cost? (1)

FunkDaddy (556594) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643714)

Try Free.

Re:and how much does this "Service Pack" cost? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4645368)

Try Free.

And where do we get this software update?

From Software Update.

Uh-huh, and how much does it cost?

Um, it's free.

I see, and where is it?

Software Update.

And what is Apple charging for this free software update?

Psst, the boss is coming.

It's free, right?

Re:and how much does this "Service Pack" cost? (2, Interesting)

Into The White (560733) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644119)

Service packs? You obviously don't use a Mac very often, do you? Apple releases "software updates" that follow a logical numbering system.

10.2.2 (0, Troll)

Znonymous Coward (615009) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643699)

I wonder if this update will disable anything that apple dosen't like you to have.

Example:

Quartz extreme on non-authorized systems.
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/OSX/quartz_ex treme_PCI_ mod.html#hack

Re:10.2.2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4644136)

It's a TRICK!!! They're on to us, man! Picking up our thoughts via satellite uplinks and broadcasting them to Steve Jobs' office. The fillings in my teeth are buzzing with the activity of a cadre of secret agents, all out to get ME! I knew it would come to this, I just KNEW IT!!!

Probably not (1)

Onan (25162) | more than 11 years ago | (#4645384)

While it might happen accidentally (updating components you had changed), the odds of them doing it intentionally are fairly small.

I'm not trying to make an argument that Apple is so innately pure that they would never do such a thing. They do things like sell ibooks and imacs which theoretically have the hardware to do monitor spanning, but have this feature disabled for product marketing purposes.

However, they pretty much only do these things when they feel it's in their best interest. And the number of people who would make a purchasing decision based upon the ability to hack in quartzgl support for pci video is almost precisely zero, slashdot notwithstanding. Hence, no real incentive for them to intentionally thwart such things.

Exactly how much space does journaling take up...? (1)

Squidgee (565373) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643972)

I'm wondering, since I only have 11gbs left on my iBook's harddrive until I decide to buy an external hdd. I don't want to take up my entire hdd with the JFS...

Heh, I'll probably enable it even with the performance hit; sure, my iBook will be slow, but it's so cool. =)

Re:Exactly how much space does journaling take up. (4, Informative)

Doktor Memory (237313) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644173)

Breathe easy. Filesystem commit logs (aka journals) are generally tiny things: 15-30mb at worst. NetApp, for instance, keeps the filesystem journal for their Filer NAS servers in 32mb of mirrored NVRAM. You'll never notice the lost space.

Re:Exactly how much space does journaling take up. (1)

Squidgee (565373) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644645)

Thanks for the answer; I'm quite glad this isn't going to be a big thing (I thought it may have been upwards of 1gb, heh)

What store are they talking about? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4644344)

On a recent trip to my local Apple Retail Store, they were indeed installing a new OS on their systems from FireWire hard drives, but what they were installing was 10.2.1, not 10.2.2. They have been behind on new updates for quite some time, and the only time I know of pre-release OS software being run in a store was when they were demonstrating a developer Jaguar build last summer.

Software update once a minute... (3, Informative)

brianosaurus (48471) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644352)

Remember, its UNIX underneath:

#!/bin/bash

while true; do /usr/sbin/softwareupdate
sleep 60
done ;)

A perl wrapper to parse the output of "softwareupdate" is probably more useful, as it could email you that there's new updates, or maybe do the installation itself.

Actually, that's not a bad idea for a server... set up a cron job to automatically update and reboot as needed. Hmm.

Re:Software update once a minute... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4644706)

Yeah, I think I'll go and hire you to be my sysadmin right away.

you can't wait? (1, Redundant)

goon america (536413) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644418)

too bad you can't set the software update utility to check every minute.

#!/bin/sh

while :
do
softwareupdate Mac OS X
sleep 60
done

no confirmation yet? (1)

GTsquirrel42 (624871) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644511)

Just to see what kind of time frame we're looking at here, I called my local Apple Store asking a projected date for 10.2.2 availability on Software Update. Interestingly enough, the employee denied any knowledge of the release of such an update. Is Apple really this wary of public knowledge of updates, or is there just no 10.2.2? I wonder.....

Re:no confirmation yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4645536)

what says you talked to a knowledgable person? apple stores have idiot employess just like all other computer stores...

a few comments (3, Interesting)

moosesocks (264553) | more than 11 years ago | (#4645316)

This looks like a worthwile release (unfortunately, I still don't have the cash to afford jaguar, so I am thus excluded from this update)

FTP: I suppose this means that apple will be intergraiting FTP into the finder gui, and possibly improving the built-in FTP server. On a side note: why can't we all use FTP for file sharing with some common locator/naming service... FTP seems to be the only file sharing protocol properly implimented into every major OS. SMB is a great protocol, but has lots of room for improvement.

NFS: Who uses THAT? Honestly, people... SMB is much more widely supported, no matter how poorly implemented.

Print Services - Apple needs more of a unified printer driver architecture similar to the one used in windows. The one in OSX now is good, but not quite there yet.

File system - Journaling FS is niice, even though HFS+ already maintains data integrity quite well without a journal.

All in all, this one looks like a winner. Had Jaguar included these enhancements to begin with, chaces are that apple would have sold many more copies (although I admire apple's policy of incremental updates that add functionality, as well as fixing bugs. No other OS offers that. Not linux, not windows, nothing.)

Re:a few comments (2)

Doktor Memory (237313) | more than 11 years ago | (#4645449)

FTP seems to be the only file sharing protocol properly implimented into every major OS.

Ugh. I wish. Windows XP still ships with completely broken FTP support, both on the command line and in the Explorer, just like every version since Windows 95. The explorer doesn't support ftp upload at all.

And even if it were properly implemented everywhere, FTP is a horrible protocol. A crufty and overdesigned two-channel connection setup, no security, only one generally supported authentication mode, and terrible error handling. FTP is a relic from the bronze age of the internet, and the sooner it goes away, the better.

NFS: Who uses THAT?

You're kidding, right?

Fortune 1000 companies use NFS. Universities use NFS. The linux kid in the next apartment from you probably uses NFS. I use NFS. We don't necessarily like it, but we use it.

Apple needs more of a unified printer driver architecture similar to the one used in windows.

They have [cups.org] one. Really. It's as unified as it's possible to get. They just need more/better drivers.

HFS+ already maintains data integrity quite well without a journal.

You are a funny, funny man.

It's here. (3, Informative)

whee (36911) | more than 11 years ago | (#4645825)

10.2.2 has been posted to Software Update. See here [apple.com] for the knowledge base document (may not be posted yet).
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