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Larry Rosen on the Microsoft Penalty Ruling

Roblimo posted more than 11 years ago | from the I-am-a-lawyer-and-I'm-not-ashamed-to-admit-it dept.

The Courts 289

Some excellent questions got asked. And these answers, from Larry Rosen, an attorney who works heavily on open source licensing matters, ought to give you a bit of insight into what the Microsoft "final judgement" means in the context of open source development and the software marketplace in general.

How do consumers benefit?
No, really! by Enry

Both Bill Gates and John Ashcroft talked about how the decision benefits consumers. But there's nothing really in the decision that changes the way MSFT does business. I can't call IBM and get a discount on a system without Windows installed, if I load XP onto a machine, MSFT can take it over and install software without my permission, and the APIs can be buried in MSDN, forcing OSS software developers to not only subscribe to MSDN, but also follow whatever licensing MSDN forces on users.

For the most part, this is MSFT business as usual.

Where, in this decision, do the consumers benefit? If you could put yourself in CKK's shoes, what would you say?


I would have expected Bill Gates and John Ashcroft to say how happy they are with the decision. That fact alone doesn't help me interpret its effects.

I'm also pretty confident that there will soon be important Microsoft business practice changes to solve the problems you suggested, at least partly as a result of this decision but more importantly as a result of inevitable market forces.

The court decision discourages Microsoft from using its market power to coerce OEMs and distributors into exclusive marketing arrangements. That may encourage companies to offer computers without an operating system installed, or with Linux installed. Let's make sure that distributors friendly to open source offer these options, and let's help prove, by offering competitive open source software solutions to customers, that there's a healthy market for such systems. We know from this court decision that distributors need no longer fear retaliatory licensing practices from Microsoft. Now all we need to do is compete on quality and value.

Microsoft's XP software installation and upgrade model seems to be a dud in the marketplace too. The more Microsoft does nasty things like that to its customers, the more those customers turn to Linux and open source. So I don't see that as being a problem that the antitrust judge had to deal with.

As for your point about APIs, that to me is the most interesting part of the court's decision. The judge found it necessary to define an area in which Microsoft must disclose its APIs. While not as broad a definition as most of us would have liked, it does require Microsoft to disclose a lot more than it ever has before. We must be vigilant to prevent Microsoft's movement of APIs from one operating system level to another simply to hide them from us.

You ask, "Where, in this decision, do consumers benefit?" That's hard to see at the moment. Antitrust law does not deal with a static game in which one party says "check mate" at the last move. It merely attempts to prevent certain behaviors that distort the game as it is played. In answering this and other Slashdot questions, I want to look for ways that the court helped to prevent game distortions. I don't want to grouse about the fact that we didn't get everything we wanted, but instead to identify new opportunities in this court decision for the open source community to play this game against Microsoft successfully as an equal.

On Palladium
by forged

With Microsoft pretty much doing what they want [] these days, do you have fear that their Palladium project could be a real threat to Linux and other free-software projects, if MS try to force it upon their installed base? What will be the best way to fight Palladium?


Great question, but fortunately it wasn't in my charter to answer it.

I can tell you that the court's decision in the remedy phase of the Microsoft antitrust trial said absolutely nothing about Palladium. I doubt it was anywhere in the judge's mind at the time. And I don't see a clear connection between the two issues.

Your real question, I guess, is hidden in your leading comment, that Microsoft is "pretty much doing what they want these days." After this antitrust decision, they're going to be watched intensely for evidence of anticompetitive behavior. I don't think they're going to be doing only what they want, at least for a few years.

There are plenty of interesting comments on Palladium. I just did a quick Google search and found this page at EPIC. Why don't you ask one of the people at EPIC whether they see the antitrust decision as making a difference to the "trusted computing" technology?

Copyright != Antitrust
by HaeMaker

I have heard in various other cases that if a copyright holder uses his copyright to commit antitrust, they lose the ability to defend their copyright.

Clearly, Microsoft has been found guilty of using its copyright on Windows 95 to kill Netscape.

Is is possible for a pirate to successfully defend himself by claiming Microsoft has lost its copyright? (I assume this applies to only that software specifically mentioned in the case. Not all software produced by Microsoft)


Copyright law and antitrust law both deal with monopolies. In copyright law, the monopoly is sanctioned -- encouraged -- as a reward for creativity. In antitrust law, the monopoly is restrained to prevent unfair advantage in anticompetitive ways. So as the questioner rightly points out, there may be ways in which these two laws will have contradictory effect.

It is important to remember that the antitrust law doesn't directly prevent a company from gaining a monopoly by legal means. It is the *use* of that monopoly power to gain unfair advantage over competitors that is prevented. A company can't, for example, use its monopoly in one business area to gain a monopoly in another business area. It can't use a monopoly in water softening systems to force its customers to buy the company's own salt. It can't use its monopoly to prevent competitors from selling their products through independent distributors. It can't sell products at a loss to force competitors out of business.

A copyright owner has a legal monopoly. Antitrust law doesn't trump it. The only thing the antitrust law can do is address a situation in which that legal monopoly is used in an anticompetitive manner by a monopolist.

Ordinarily a company would have the right to publish, or not to publish, its copyrightable subject matter, or to license it under any terms it wanted including confidentiality provisions or withholding the right to create derivative works. Almost every proprietary software vendor uses licenses with such provisions. But Microsoft used that power to lock competitors out from the lucrative "middleware" business. (What the court meant by "middleware" is a potential later topic.) Other companies could not create certain types of applications because Microsoft kept secret some of its copyrightable code in Windows. Even though Windows and those other applications were potentially different business areas, Microsoft tied them together (e.g., used its copyrightable and trade secret materials) in ways that enhanced its monopoly. That was a violation of the antitrust law.

So the court fashioned several remedies to prevent that unfair business tactic by Microsoft.

The court requires Microsoft "to disclose certain APIs, along with related technical information, which 'Microsoft Middleware' utilizes to interoperate with the Windows platform." It also mandates the "disclosure and licensing of protocols used by clients running on Microsoft's Windows operating system to interoperate with Microsoft servers." Executive Summary, pp. 14-15.
At the same time, the court refused to require the disclosures of Microsoft's intellectual property that describes Windows' internal interfaces:
"Over-broad disclosure, such as that proposed by Plaintiffs, must also be avoided because it will likely enable wholesale copying or cloning of Windows without violating Microsoft's intellectual property rights. The cloning of Microsoft's technology carries the potential to hinder some aspects of competition and discourage innovation. As antitrust law does not exist for the protection of competitors, but for the protection of competition, the Court does not regard this end as a legitimate one."
So that's why the court balanced copyright with antitrust.

The court also ordered Microsoft to license its intellectual property for APIs on "reasonable" and "non-discriminatory" terms. Having just lived through a W3C effort to define those words for patent licenses, I expect this part of the court's decree will provide full-time employment to more than a few lawyers. :-)

Valid Business Model
by Mr. Smoove

In the settlement it talks about MS having to disclose information only to companies with a sound business model that meats critera set out by MS. Where does OSS fall? Can MS say OSS is not up to its standards and therefore not release the code?

Additionally what effect will MS's right to charge have on OSS? Can MS only charge for developers to see the code or are they entitled to charge royalties for the implementation of the code? (Can you legally reverse engineer a software having seen the code?)


My editor assured me that I would have to answer ten questions, and this one query alone includes five. I'm almost more than half-way done!

The court never once mentioned open source software in its decision. That is not remarkable because judges -- especially district court judges -- are always reluctant to make an issue broader than the case before it. The court was asked to determine a remedy for Microsoft's monopolistic practices. This decision, with all its flaws, does that in a comprehensive way. This means that the court's provisions regarding the disclosure of APIs, the availability of "reasonable and non-discriminatory" licenses from Microsoft, that company's licensing practices with OEMs, and so on, apply equally to competition from open source software as for proprietary software.

To be perfectly clear about this point: Open source software is the most effective competition to Microsoft and they know it. They will not be able to discriminate against our software in monopolistic ways. The court retains the right to step in for the next five (or up to seven!) years if Microsoft doesn't cooperate. We'll be watching.

No, Microsoft can't discriminate against us if they say we're "not up to their standards." That's hogwash any way you look at it! The court did, however, set a one-million-copy-per-year threshold for certain obligations, so that Microsoft isn't forced to "redesign its product to accommodate a particular piece of software with extremely limited use." I'm not sure how this will play out in practice, but I think it is likely to affect smaller proprietary vendors rather than us. After all, we can give away one million copies of open source software to willing customers much easier than a proprietary vendor can sell them.

As I said, Microsoft can charge "reasonable" and "non-discriminatory" royalties. In law school we always used to joke that the word "reasonable" in a statute was a full-employment opportunity for at least two lawyers. Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly will be keeping her eyes on that too for at least the next five years. Here's the vague words she used in her decree:

"The Court will prohibit Microsoft from imposing unreasonable or discriminatory license terms, but will permit Microsoft to require a reasonable royalty for the licenses necessary to exercise the rights guaranteed by the final judgment." (Executive Summary pp. 15-16.)
One representative from Microsoft personally reassured me several times over the past few year that her company does not intend to charge high royalties for licenses to patents. Perhaps that also means that her company won't attempt to stifle competition by charging higher royalties than the open source community can afford.

Finally, I'm confused by your question "Can you legally reverse engineer a software having seen the code?" If you've seen the code, why do you need to reverse engineer it? I'll assume you mean, having seen the API documentation, can you reverse engineer Microsoft's code to see how they implemented the API? No! Reverse engineering may be done only if Microsoft allows it in their licenses. Consult a lawyer before you reverse engineer something.

You may have meant one other thing: Under Microsoft's Shared Source licenses you may look at their code. But beware of the conditions under which they show it to you. That software can contaminate you and put your own open source software at risk if you -- even inadvertently -- copy their code. This has nothing to do with the antitrust topic so I'll say no more about that here.

Can Microsoft Pull a "Fast One"?
by viperjsw

What is being put into place to insure that Microsoft actually hands over real code? I mean really. We've got legal consul that doesn't know jack about code trying to, possibly, enforce somehting that they know nothing to little about. Microsoft could hand over out of date code, partial code, bugged code, and any number of other variables on the "truth" and legal guys would be none the wiser.


I resent this. Most of the lawyers I meet in open source circles know a lot more than "jack" about code. Some of us even wrote lots of code in prior careers. We're just frustrated engineers who wanted to make our parents proud by going to law school.

We have to count on talented experts in the software field to be able to prove that Microsoft is doing any of the things you described. Keep your eyes open for any signs of cheating.

I've handled lots of civil litigation in which a defendant's misrepresentations come out, and then the defendant lost. The discovery rules give us lots of ways to prove bad faith.

The court appointed an "enforcement committee" to protect the plaintiffs' interests. Here's what that committee has the power to do:

"The remedy adopted by the Court will provide Plaintiffs, acting only after consultation with their enforcement committee, reasonable access to Microsoft's source code, books, ledgers, accounts, correspondence, memoranda, and other correspondence, access to Microsoft employees for interview, and the right to request and receive written reports from Microsoft on any matter contained in the Court's remedial decree. Plaintiffs will, of course, be bound to limit any use of information obtained through these means for the purpose of ensuring Microsoft's compliance with the remedial decree, or as otherwise required by law. Similarly, should information and documents provided to Plaintiffs be subject to disclosure to a third party, Microsoft will not be deprived of the opportunity to claim protection pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26(c)(7)." (Executive Summary, p. 17.)
That's pretty strong. Imagine what life would have been like if we'd had that power all along....

by mrkurt

Just how much of their remaining undisclosed APIs does Microsoft have to make public? I found the judge's references to this issue quite confusing; in one place she said that MS would have to reveal all of its "communications" protocols; in another she ruled that MS wouldn't have to reveal anything that pertained to such topics as "encryption" or "digital rights management". Isn't it possible for MS to claim that existing or future new APIs for Windows would fall into the latter category, and thus allow them to keep much of it in the dark? My followup question is: what mechanism did the judge set up for determining whether an API should be public or not?


Judge Kollar-Kotelly's ruling in the Microsoft antitrust trial was not good news but neither was it a doomsday ruling. Microsoft had already been found liable for monopolistic practices, and the court was just deciding the remedy phase for those plaintiffs who hadn't settled along with the Justice Department quite a while ago.

It is interesting to me to see how such cases are won and lost. Microsoft controlled the definitions that the court accepted and by doing so it won this battle over its future. The court said clearly that the definitions were of paramount importance:

"Integral to understanding the two remedies proposed in this case is a preliminary understanding of the manner in which the two remedies treat middleware." (Executive Summary, p. 5)
The court found that Microsoft's definition of middleware was more consonant with the treatment of the term during the liability phase of the trial.

Middleware is software that resides in the middle between the operating system and something else. "It relies on the interfaces provided by the underlying operating system while simultaneously exposing its own APIs to developers." If defined broadly, such middleware would include almost any software product. If defined narrowly, it would encompass software that provides the functionality of Internet browsers, email client software, networked audio/video client software, and instant messaging software.

The court decided to accept Microsoft's narrow definition of middleware.

Microsoft now has the obligation to expose operating system APIs that are necessary to implement middleware as that term is defined by the court. To avoid confusion, the court specifically required disclosure of APIs for network and server-based applications. The court specifically excluded from disclosure APIs for interactive television software, handheld devices, and Web services.

It seems that, if you can get a court to accept your definitions of terms, you can watch your opponent's proposed remedies disappear in the wind.

The open source community should make sure that Microsoft publishes all the APIs it is required to by this decision. We want to provide valuable open source software that can compete, on Microsoft's own platform and on Linux computers, against all of Microsoft's middleware products.

So experts in open source software should read the court's definitions of middleware carefully, and understand each of the exceptions to the disclosure requirements precisely. I could spend a lifetime analyzing hypotheticals about "communications" protocols, or about "encryption" or "digital rights management." Or I could wait until an important real issue arises. Guess which alternative Judge Kollar-Kotelly chose?

Microsoft is going to have to tread very carefully in this area. If they refuse to disclose certain APIs that their customers, distributors, OEMs and competitors want to have disclosed, they will have to have an intelligent reason. The judge will be listening, and so will we.

Sua Sponte?
by fava

What about the sua sponte provision.

"Jurisdiction is retained by this Court over this action such that the Court may act sua sponte to issue further orders or directions, including but not limited to orders or directions relating to the construction or carrying out of this Final Judgment, the enforcement of compliance therewith, the modification thereof, and the punishment of any violation thereof. Jurisdiction is retained by this Court over this action and the parties thereto for the purpose of enabling the parties to this action to apply to this Court at any time for further orders and directions as may be necessary or appropriate to carry out or construe this Final Judgment, to modify or terminate any of its provisions, to enforce compliance, and to punish violations of its provisions."
It sounds a very open ended authority that grants the judge broad powers over all aspects of the settlement.

Can the judge use this provision to broaden the scope of the agreement or to force Microsoft to use a particular intrepretation of some clause, for example the security exemption or the viability clause?

Or am I just a geek grasping for straws?


What's wrong with being a geek grasping for straws?

That's exactly the straw this geek grasped at when I first read the court's decision.

Was the judge's ruling based on the case....
by wowbagger

Many folks are whipping themselves into a frenzy blaming the judge for this decision - but a judge can only (and SHOULD only) judge the case they're brought.

Do you feel the judge was judging within the context of the case she was brought (in other words, that the DOJ fell down on the job of bringing the appeal), or do you feel that the judge's decision was in error based on the case that was brought to her?


I am sure that Judge Kollar-Kotelly did not ask for the privilege of handling this case. Yet her decision -- agree or disagree -- demonstrated careful reasoning, an appreciation of computer software beyond that of the typical lawyer or judge, and a good understanding of the limitations of her role.

Here's how she got the case:

"On appeal, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit deferred to Judge Jackson's factual findings, altered his findings of liability-affirming in part and reversing in part, and vacated the remedy decree. The appellate court affirmed only limited violations based on 2 of the Sherman Act for illegal monopoly maintenance; all other grounds were reversed. Soon thereafter, the case was randomly reassigned to this Court for the imposition of a remedy." (Executive Summary, p. 3.)
Here's how errors are corrected in such situations. The plaintiffs may appeal this decision. Assuming that the appeals court upholds the district court's decision, the plaintiffs can then appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. That Court may elect not to hear the appeal. Or it can turn this into an important case to be argued by the best lawyers we can find.

At none of those appeals steps will any court care what Larry Rosen feels.

From a Different Point of View
by Bilbo

Most Slashdot readers are, of course, looking at this decision from a strong technical point of view. It is clear that this decision is going to hurt our favorite technology, and is a bad thing for the Technology sector. We tend to draw parallels from other technology cases, such as the breakup of AT&T, and the outcome of that case.

My question however, is, if you look at this decision from a Business perspective, how does it fall? Is this decision in line with existing case law when it comes to dealing with individuals and corporations who have come to exercise huge amounts of power over their various sectors of the economy? Was this decision made with the intent of strengthening the overall business climate of the US, especially given the current state of the world economy? Will it make perfect sense to the average CEO?


You're looking at this decision from the right perspective. Antitrust law deals with business practices, not technology. But this case was brought because of a technology monopoly, so the court fashioned a remedy that it felt addressed the business of technology in which Microsoft's monopolistic practices were most obvious.

The previous court found that Microsoft abused its monopoly power to gain new (related) monopolies and to strengthen its market dominance. When that happens, the court must fashion a remedy. Here's how Judge Kollar-Kotelly, at pages 3-4 of her Executive Summary, described the law of antitrust remedies:

1. Since the appeals court already reduced the scope of Microsoft's liability, that higher court ordered the district court to "determine the propriety of a specific remedy for the *limited* ground of liability we have upheld."

2. Microsoft had not been found to have acquired its monopoly unfairly, but merely to have maintained it by illegal means. Therefore, "rather than termination of the monopoly, the proper objective of the remedy in this case is termination of the exclusionary acts and practices related thereto which served to illegally maintain the monopoly."

3. The goal of antitrust remedies is not to punish a past transgression, nor merely to end specific illegal practices. A remedy should "effectively pry open to competition a market that has been closed by [a] defendant['s] illegal restraints." Equitable relief in an antitrust case, the court wrote,

"should not 'embody harsh measures when less severe ones will do,' nor should it adopt overly regulatory requirements which involve the judiciary in the intricacies of business management. In crafting a remedy specific to the violations, the Court 'is not limited to prohibition of the proven means by which the evil was accomplished, but may range broadly through practices connected with acts actually found to be illegal."
4. Finally, the plaintiffs did not request a structural remedy of dissolution ("a break-up of Microsoft") and instead proposed a remedy which focuses on regulating Microsoft's behavior.

Within those constraints, the district court could range rather widely in crafting specific remedies in this case. That remedy must be tailored to fit the situation before it.

The plaintiffs in this case obviously felt that the court did not go far enough in fashioning a remedy. They may appeal. But we've got a remedy that we're all -- including Microsoft -- going to have to live with at least for now.

You ask whether this decision was made "with the intent of strengthening the overall business climate of the US, especially given the current state of the world economy?" I gather from Judge Kollar-Kotelly's written decision that this wasn't one of the considerations for her. Will it accomplish that goal anyway? Perhaps it will be a modest step forward if we're diligent in our efforts to ensure compliance by Microsoft in every way that is important to us.

Finally, you ask whether the decision will "make perfect sense to the average CEO?" There are no average CEOs. Just like in Garson Keillor's hometown of Lake Wobegon, everyone in such positions is above average. But I can bet you that CEOs of software companies are reading this decision with great interest.

The real question for me: microsoft laptop tax
by sanermind

Does the wording on non-discriminatory licensing to OEMS mean that I will finally be able to purchase most laptops without having to pay a microsoft tax for software I delete as soon as I get it?


I sure hope so. The court's decision doesn't require distributors or OEMs to offer that option, but it does prevent Microsoft from entering into exclusive contracts that force distributors or OEM's to impose a "laptop tax."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

fp? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643482)

Water, Water, Water!

pf (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643487)

pist frost!

FP (-1)

YourMissionForToday (556292) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643488)

Screw your mind!

This post... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643518) completely useless

Re:This post... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643570)

That's okay. So was this article. There wasn't a single scrap of information or insight in the whole thing. Slashdot, you've taken five minutes of my life, and I want them back.

Oh, I'd just waste 'em anyway.

Quick Note (5, Informative)

DrPascal (185005) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643526)

and the APIs can be buried in MSDN, forcing OSS software developers to not only subscribe to MSDN, but also follow whatever licensing MSDN forces on users.

MSDN's documentation and source examples are free ... has all of it. As a former MSDN subscriber, you get software and EXTRA downloads (ability to try new releases, etc), but the documentation is always freely available. FUD Alert!

Re:Quick Note (0)

Big Mark (575945) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643544)

Yes, it's all there. Of course, if the Micro-Soft had posted such misleading information it would be flamed into high heaven for it's misdemeanours.

"The Truth Shall Set Ye Free, So Long As Free Means GPL"

Re:Quick Note (2, Interesting)

Sabalon (1684) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643598)

I will agree about MSDN's ability to bury things. If you don't know what you're looking for you may never find it.

Too much documentation? Not a good enough search engine? Either way - heaven only knows what they could hide in there saying they made it available.

Makes the obfuscated C contest look legible!!!

Too much in one. (3, Interesting)

Flamesplash (469287) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643839)

I know what you mean. I don't use MSDN much, but when I have it wasn't fun.

I think one of MS's problems in general is that it is simply trying to bundle too much together. For instance, Word, Excell, PowerPoint etc.. many years ago were all seperate applications completely. Then MS went and tried to make them all integrated, which was fine, but it seemed like they went beyond that and tried to make them the same program almost, and that didn't work out too well. Additionally, it seems that if MSN were broken down into smaller pieces it might be more usable.

Re:Quick Note (2)

Dr. Awktagon (233360) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643713)

and the APIs can be buried in MSDN, forcing OSS software developers to not only subscribe to MSDN, but also follow whatever licensing MSDN forces on users.

That's what makes it not 100% "free". I haven't read MSDN's license (did you?), so I don't know what it says.

As an example of license fun, Apple's Developer Connection agreement contains the following words:

5. Verification of Compliance. You agree that authorized Apple representatives, with 24 hours advance notice, may inspect the location where the Prototype is stored, the Prototype and copies of other Confidential Information and your Prototype access log during your normal business hours in order to verify that you are complying with your obligations under this Agreement.

("Prototype" is "Apple pre-release software and related documentation and information" .. how do I know when I downloaded that? Does a Beta of QuickTime count?)

That was enough to make me avoid joining.

Any tasty nuggets in MSDN's license agreement? Or perhaps, they will add some now..

Just pointing out that, like RMS, software companies have their own idea of what "free" means.

Since you asked (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643817)

Here's the MSDN license for this kind of information.

Permission to use Documents (such as white papers, press releases, datasheets and FAQs) from this server ("Server") is granted, provided that (1) the below copyright notice appears in all copies and that both the copyright notice and this permission notice appear, (2) use of such Documents from this Server is for informational and non-commercial or personal use only and will not be copied or posted on any network computer or broadcast in any media, and (3) no modifications of any Documents are made. Use for any other purpose is expressly prohibited by law, and may result in severe civil and criminal penalties. Violators will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible.

you must be looking at something else (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643895) s/ msdneula.exe

these contain several more paragraphs than what you posted they also have licenses in each product (like the one that specifically bans GPL-type licesnses)

Re:Quick Note (1)

pgrote (68235) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643750)

Why was this post moderated as a troll? It made a good point that things are available on MSDN. I didn't know that before I read the post. I thought you had to pay.

Re:Quick Note (1)

drxenos (573895) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643804)

So true! If I didn't already post, I would mod it back up

posts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643527)

its obious theres no "On topic" posts because THE ARTICLE IS SO FUCKING LONG

Re:posts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643548)


that wasnt offtopic

that was flamebait....

so is this

Re:posts (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643582)

Fuck you you stupid twat.

That wasn't flamebait. It was a flame. And it wasn't off-topic, because the parent posted flamebait in an effort to get flamed, and I merely obliged. And if any motherfucker mods this post "overrated," I'm fucking coming to his house, murdering his wife, raping his kids, and eating his fucking dog.

Re:posts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643610)

mod this down as offtopic

also, what makes u think slashdot readers have families?

Re:posts (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643636)

fuck, i meant mod the parent down as please mod the parent's parent, and the parent, and this post as offtopic.



xdfgf (460453) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643529)

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:55:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Horry Patter
Subject: Bow Wow's First

DISCLAIMER: The story below is a work of complete fiction.
None of the events note in this story have ever taken place.
This story is purely fiction and is not meant to imply
anything about the sexuality of the characters or anyone
mentioned in the story. This story is not true, and any part
of it which might have actually happen is completely
coincidental. Copyright is claimed by the author, me.

Bow Wow felt so horny. All he wanted to do was be
alone for 20 minutes and jack his raging cock off. The past
few months had made him extremely horny. He was going
through puberty, and starting to show signs of it. His
muscles started to grow, and he began to grow hair on his
dick and under his arms, and started to emit a scent that
made Shad horny whenever he sweated. He had also discovered
how to beat his meat, and how to shoot his cream. He can
still remember the day he blew his first load. It was a few
months ago...
It was at some awards thing. He didn't even know what
it was, just that he had to show his face there for
publicity. There were alot of kid celebrities like him
there. It was a pretty boring show to him, but he just had
to make an appearance. He never thought the show would end,
and when it did, he had to take a gigantic piss. He told
his mother he had to 'go', and that she could wait outside
or something. When he got to the restrooms, there were
lines of people waiting to relieve themselves. He hesitated
to at first, but then realized he couldn't wait anymore.
As he got closer to the stalls, he became more nervous.
He was surrounded by guys his age, and being in a public
bathroom filled with other guys made him uncofortable. When
it was his turn to go, he walked up to the stall, unzipped,
and pulled out his cock. Suddenly, somebody with a familiar
face walked up to the stall next to him. He looked up and
saw that it was Aaron Carter. Bow wow knew who Aaron was,
but really wasn't a fan of his music. Unable to help
himself, Bow Wow sneaked a peek over into Aaron's stall. He
saw Aaron pull out his cut dick, and saw he had a pretty
good size patch of pubic hair above his cock. Bow Wow's
cock took about half a second to become fully erect. The
tip of his cock was now touching the porcelain stall. Aaron
was sweating after his little performance, and when Bow Wow
smelled the arome of a sweaty boy, it made his dick rock-
harder. He waited for Aaron to leave so that he wouldn't
see his erect cock in the stall, then put his own inflated
tool in his pants.
After seeing another boys dick for the first time, this
left Shad extremely horny. His cock was harder than it had
ever been before, and was begging to escape his pants. When
he finally got home, he told his mother he was exhausted and
was going to bed. Instead, he went straight to his room,
locked the door, and began to think about what he had just
seen. He was still shaking a little from the exitement. He
had never felt this way before. He sat on his bed and
revisioned seeing the boy's cock. He remembered how he was
dripping with sweat and how his scent made his dick harder.
Shad remembered his hard cock in his pants, waiting to
be unleased. He had never done anything like this before,
with being busy with recording his latest album and tours
and all that kinda stuff. He was sitting at the corner of
his bed with one leg over each side. He excitedly kicked
off his shoes, and began to unbuckle his jeans. Having done
that, he began to slowly pull down his jeans. He got his
jeans pulled down to his knees, and saw the huge bulge
coming from his boxers.
He slowly began to pull down his boxers as well.
Slowly, his patch of dark curly pubic hair appeared. Then
his excited cock sprang loose, bouncing right off his
stomach. He looked at his hard dark cock for a second; it
was brown, of course, about 5 and a half inches in length,
and about as thick as a hot dog. Shad was cut, although he
didn't know what that meant yet. He was sweating from the
humid summer night weather and all the excitement he was
He decided to take his shirt off too. Shad lifted his
arms up to slip his shirt off, and noticed he was sweating
under his arms as well. He examined the medium sized patch
of hair he had just grown, and inhaled the scent of his
sweat coming from his armpits. Shad was now naked from the
knees up. He was dripping with sweat, and his cock pulsing.
With his right hand, Shad grabbed his throbbing cock. Just
the touch of his hand making contact with his dick made him
shudder. His eyes slammed shut from intense feeling. He
felt around his warm, sweaty balls for a second. He brought
his hand up to his face and smelled his own cock-scent.
He began to stroke his long dick up and down, groaning
and shuddering from the immense pleasure he was in. Shad
started to jack his dick faster and faster, as he became
more excited. He had this feeling in his stomach that he
had never felt before. Shads dick was starting to feel a
little funny, kinda itchy. He just ignored it and kept
beating his pulsating cock. As his strokes were starting to
get faster, Shad felt a burning feeling in his balls, like
he had to take a piss. Shad opened his eyes in fear that he
had done something wrong and broke his dick.
He kept jacking his dick untill all of a sudden, he
felt his cock start to spasm.
"Uhhhhhhh......oooohhhhhhhh shiiiiitttttt" he grunted
Shads cock started to erupt.
His hot, white cum started to blast everywhere. Shad
kept jacking his pulsating cock, shooting his thick jizz
everywhere. Two wads of hot boy-juice flew up from his cock
and hit him right in the face. As he stroked his cock like
no tommorrow, blast after blast of Shads thick cream hit him
right in the chest.
Shads cock oozed cum all over his hand and into his
pubes. His cream was dribbling into his bush dripping all
over his chest. His cock finally began calm down and the
cum-blasting stopped. His cum-covered hand was still
jacking his dick off, letting all the excess cum dribble out
of his cock. He removed his hand from his dick and examined
it. The first thing he noticed was the smell. His room now
reeked of a salty smell, kinda like bleach.
He looked around, still excited from shooting a wad for
the first time. Shad saw that his chest and hand were both
fully covered with his white jizz.
"Aww man....How em I gonna clean dis shit up?"
His bed had spots of his cum all over, already soaking
into his bedspread. His boxers and jeans had some of his
juice on it, but not too much. Shad decided to take them
off, not wanting anyone to see the spots. He stood up and
slid off his jeans and boxers. Standing naked, with a half-
erect cock and a cum-smeared chest and hand, he heard his
door handle turn.
"Boy what are you doin in there with the door locked?!" His
mother asked
"Um, nothing!....Nothing" Was his ingenious reply.
"Yeah whatever..." Said his mother, hinting a tone of
Still standing naked, Shad walked over to pick of a
sock laying around his room. He wiped all of his jizz off
his chest and hand, and rub all the cum out of his pubes.
The cum-scent began to fade away, but he was still dripping
with sweat. That was the first time he saw cum, and the
first he'd ever shot it. ....Shad still remembers that day. Ever since then,
he'd jack off whenever he got the chance. Blowing a load of
hot cum all over himself became his favorite hobby. Since
then, his cock has grown to 6 inches, and now he can shoot
twice as much cum as before. He tried to taste it and
shooting it straight into his mouth.
Now it was the end of summer, and all that was on his
mind was jacking off. He discovered the different sites on
the web with guys his age to jack off to, and would sit in
from of the computer for hours, untill he finally shot a
thick wad onto the floor under his desk. Not a day went by
when he didn't think about it. His dick would become rock
hard during performances, and he'd have to go into the
bathroom to relieve himself. He'd be shooting a music video
and have to go back to his trailor for a break, just to rid
his dick of his cum.

Now he had the chance to see Aaron again. Bow Wow was
asked to perform at some teen awards show, which he thought
was a shitty gig. The only reason he accepted to do it was
so that he could see Aaron again.
As Shad finished performing, he wandered back to his
dressing room. He was feeling horny as hell and had a
gigantic boner. He forgot all about Aaron and just went
straight for his dressing room, hoping to be alone so he
could mess around. The stage lights made Shad sweat like
crazy, but that only made him wanna jack off more. Shad was
about to open the door to his dressing room untill he heard
a voice from behind:
"Hey man, that was a wild show out there" It was
Shad didn't know what to say. He froze right there, his
raging cock growing harder.
"Um, yeah....I s'pose so" He finally managed to say.
Aaron just looked at him and chuckled a little at Bow Wow's
odd response.
"You, uh, wanna hang out er somethin?" Aaron asked him.
Shad opened his dressing room door, walked in, and was
suprised to see Aaron follow him. Aaron found a chair and
sat down. Shad didn't know what to say or do. He's been
wanting to be alone with Aaron for a long time now, and now
that it was finally happening, he didn't know what to do.
He finally came up with an idea. He was hot as hell, so he
decided he'd make the first move.
"Man, I'm hot as hell in this place"
"Yeah, me too....they should turn the ac on a little
more & cool this place down" Aaron told him
As Aaron was talking, Shad began to pull his shirt off over
his head. Aaron, being a boy himself, couldn't help but to
watch. Aaron noticed Shads chest, not as well defined as
his own, but not that bad. He also noticed that he had some
hair in his armpits, glistening with sweat. Aaron suddenly
felt horny himself as his cock started to rise. Shad now
stood shirtless in front of Aaron.
"Hey man, yer sweatin all over" Aaron said
"Yeah, I know. Im soaked" Shad said, lifting up his
arms, exposing his sweaty pits to Aaron.
"Ha, you hardly have any hair unda there...haven't
started puberty yet?" Aaron joked
"Shit, I've got mo' then you. I been through puberty
if you know what I mean" Shad replied.
"So you've been lookin' at me like that?" Aaron asked,
trying to sound serious.
"Nah man, I ain't like dat. I dunno what you talkin'
about" Shad said, trying to sound truthful.
"Whatever man. I saw you that one day, checkin' out my
dick in the bathroom .Shad suddenly felt hot all over. The boy he's been wanting
for months had caught him in the act. He didn't know what
to say, he just stared straight into Aarons eyes, unable to
come up with a believable reason.
"Yeah, thats right...I know you were starin' at my
cock. You popped a boner as soon as you saw it" Aaron said
"What??" Shad asked, confused.
"While you were busy checkin' me out, I saw you had a
boner in the stall, dude. I know I musta been the one to
give it to ya"
Shad was standing there without a shirt, amazed that Aaron
had been checking his cock out the whole time he was
checking Aaron's out. When Aaron said those words, Shads
dick once again became rock hard from all this excitement.
He couldn't think of a damn thing to say. Aaron noticed his
new friends bulge.
"Hey dude, looks like I'm right."Aaron exclaimed "I
really do give ya boners"
Shad just stood there, feeling hot all over. He didn't know
what to do. He didn't know if Aaron was gonna tell everyone
about this or if Aaron was inviting Shad to mess around.
Then Aaron spoke.
"You saw my dick, now lemme see how you compare" Aaron
said, hoping not to scare Shad away
"Um......" Said Shad, surprised by Aaron's invite.
Aaron jumped to his feet and walked towards Shad, who was
still standing in the same spot after all that time. He
wasted no time and yanked on Shads jeans. Aaron pulled his
jeans down to his feet, leaving Shad standing in his boxers,
with a bulge in the front. Shad felt like his head was
gonna explode. He never felt like this before. He was
finally messing around with Aaron.
"Huh, I can smell your cock, really gotta
take a shower" Aaron said, but the truth was that it gave
him a boner himself. Shad was totally lost in awe of what
was going on.
Aaron then began to pull Shads boxers to the floor. As
he slipped them down, Shads pubes were slowly revealed.
Then came the begining of his dick. Aaron paused
"C'mon...don't stop..." Shad nervously pleaded
Aaron continued to pull down Shads boxers. Finally, Shads
boxers were down to his feet, revealing to Aaron his dark 6-
inch cock, throbbing with excitement
"Wow, that's pretty good" Aaron smiled
"Yeah, now what you wanna do?" Shad asked
"I'll show you..." Aaron said, reaching for his shirt.
Aaron took his shirt off and threw it on a newby chair.
Shad was still standing naked, cock pulsating.
Aaron slowly pushed his pants and boxers down to his feet,
revealing to Shad what he had once seen before.
Shad stared at Aaron's 6 inch dick, which lied
underneath a light brown huge patch of pubic hair. Aaron's
cock was cut, just like Shads. They both stared at each
others throbbing dicks, wondering what to do next.
"Looks like you could use some relief" Aaron finally
"Yeah man, think you can handle it?" Bow Wow playfully
"But you gotta do me too" Aaron said, hoping Shad would
Shad didn't need to think about this one...He knew what he
wanted to do.
"OK" he answered
Wasting no time, Aaron reached out and grabbed Shad's 6 inch
tool. Shad closed his eyes and groaned at the touch of
Aarons hand. Aaron began to stroke Shad's cock up and down.
"Oh man...that feels awesome" Shad said to Aaron
"Yeah, it better feel just as good to me too" Aaron
Aaron continued to jack Shad's dick off, making him groan in
pleasure. He had his eyes closed , so he had no idea what
was going to happen next. Aaron suddenly stopped stroking
Shad's dick. Then Shad felt a hot, moist suction on his
cock. He opened his eyes to see Aaron sucking his dick.
"Oh shit man...this is fuckin' great" Shad managed to
say in between groans.
Aaron was sucking Shads cock like crazy. He managed to get
all 6 inches of Shads brown manhood into his mouth, with
Shads cock-tip halfway down his throat. Aaron's nose was
buried in Shads pubes.
Aaron could smell the hot musky scent of Shads sweaty
cock. He kept bobbing his head back and forth, sucking
Shads rock-hard cock.
"Uhh...wait man...I don't wanna cum yet" Shad groaned
Aaron stopped sucking, and stood back up.
"My turn" Aaron said to Shad, who was still recovering
from the intense oral pleasure he had just recieved.
Shad kneeled down in front of Aaron, who's cock was
throbbing in anticipation. Shad moved his mouth towards
Aarons awaiting cock. Shad inhaled the musky scent of
Aarons hot cock, and began to suck Aaron's meat.
"Aw man...that's great" Aaron groaned.
Shad kept on sucking. He felt Aarons cock in the back of
his throat and almost gagged on it. He loved the smell of
Aarons sweaty pubes right on his nose.
"Ok man...Lets do somethin else" Aaron said
Shad stood back up to follow Aaron to the leather couch in
the corner
"What you got in mind?" Shad excitedly asked
"Sit down" Aaron commanded "Spread your legs"
"Huh? No way man" Shad said
"C'mon man, it won't hurt, I'll let you do it to me
too" Aaron answered
"Well, aight."
Shad sat back in the couch, as if he was in a slouching
position. Aaron motioned for Shad to open his legs. Shad
hesatated at first, but eventually spread his legs. Aaron
opened his mouth and spit into his hand.
"I'm gonna make it slippery, ok" Aaron said
"Aight" shad said
Aaron took his spit-wetten finger and pointed it towards
Shads asshole. Shad become more excited than ever. He
never thought he'd be doing something like this with Aaron.
Aaron's finger entered Shads asshole, causing him to squirm
in extreme pleasure.
"Holy Shit! That shit's intense!" Shad said
Aaron contiued to finger Shads asshole, lubing it for his
dick to be able to enter it. Shads hole had a few traces of
hair, as did Aaron. Aaron took his finger out, spit on it
again, and this time put three fingers up into Shad's hole.
"Shit man, that kinda hurts"
"Just'll feel better in a minute" Aaron
Aaron took his fingers out, and began to spit on his hand
again. He rub his spit all over his cock, making it nice
and slippery to enter Shads hole.
"You ready?" Aaron asked
Aaron put Shads legs up over his shoulders and aimed his
cock for Shads hole. He moved towards Shad and pushed into
his asshole. Shad squirmed in pain for a second, but then
relaxed his muscles. Aaron kept going in. The pain was
going away, and it started to feel real good. Shad could
feed Aarons pubes brush up against his ass. Shad started to
jack his own dick off.
Aaron kept pumping his dick into Shad, faster and
"Ugh..." Aaron moaned
After a while, Aaron was ready to explode. Aaron could feel
his cum rise into his balls, causing them to tighten. He
pulled his cock out of Shads ass, and began to shoot white
boyjuice everywhere
Thick cream spurted all over Shads stomach and chest.
A few blasts caught Shad in the face, and Shad used his
tongue to lick it into his mouth. Aarons cum dripped into
Shads pubic hair, and left Shads chest white with jizz.
"Shit...that was unbelievable" Aaron said
"Yeah, but now its my turn." Shad reminded Aaron
"Ok, lets switch places".
Shad and Aaron switched places. Aaron was slouched on the
couch, legs spread wide apart. Shad then rubbed some of
Aarons cum off of his chest and used it to lube Aarons
asshole. He took a finger and stuck it into Aarons rosebud.
"You Ready" Shad asked
"You know it" Aaron answered
Shad pointed his pulsing cock towards Aarons hole. He stuck
the tip of his cock right towards the opening.
"Here goes"
Shad then pushed in his dick, making Aaron squirm and groan.
"OOoooohhhh....shit......" Shad said, overtaken by the
great feeling
Shad began to pump his cock in and out of Aarons ass. Aaron
could also feel Shads dick-hair brushing his ass. Aaron
began to stroke his cock.
As Aaron jacked his own cock, Shad continued to pound
Aarons hole.
"Shit...Im gonna cum soon" Shad yelled
Aaron began to beat his dick faster and faster, as Shad
began to fuck his asshole faster and faster.
Suddenly, Shad pulled out of his ass, and pointed his dick
towards Aarons face.
Shad could feel his dick about to explode. His balls
were tightening and getting ready to launch his boy-cream.
"uhhgggnn...." Shad loudly groaned
Shads cock began to erupt everywhere. His thick white jizz
shot right into Aarons face and mouth, causing Aarons dick
to erupt also.
Shads cum when flying through the air, landing on
Aarons stomach, leaving strings of jizz from the tip of his
cock to Aarons stomach. Aarons cum was shooting all over
his chest, mixing with Shads.
Shad's cock finally began to stop erupting hot cum, so
did Aarons. Both boys were now dripping with sweat. Aaron
was completely covered with thick cum from both of them.
Shad nearly fell over from exhaustion.
"Damn man...that was intense..." Shad told Aaron
"Yah, but nobody can ever know what went on here."
"Oh, like I'm gonna tell somebody this shit..." Shad
Both boys stood up, cum dripping from Aarons stomach. Shad
wiped the cum from his dick with a towel. The room now
smelled salty of cum.
"We gotta do dis again" Shad said
Just then the door opened. Shad realized he didn't lock the
door when they first came in.
They heard a strangers voice:
"You gotta do ....what....again....." the person's
voice trailing off as they see Shad standing naked and Aaron
covered in cum.
Both boys now realized the stranger to be Justin Berfield

"What the fuck is goin on in here?!"

It was silence as the three boys looked at each other

To Be Continued?

Any suggestions or Comments email me at
I appreciate the feedback and suggestions

Give me MORE MORE MORE (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643678)


LordKariya (195696) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643695)

Please refrain from posting gay porn. It's like you're flooding the forum with crap.

Seriously, stick to straight porn or lesbian gang-bang action.

MAN Rockets in FLIGHT!! AFTERNOON DELIGHT!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643761)

The sun beat down fiercely on the hard surfaces of the apartment
courtyard. My body was bathed in sweat. I kept my eyes closed
against the sunlight, telling myself for the thousandth time I would
not open them to look across the 30 feet of garish blue swimming pool
to where TJ Cox lay sprawled on a chaise lounge. The only others
about were Mrs. Finch, the frumpy manager, and two of her cronies in
deck chairs down at the shady end, aborbed in their beer and their

I had seen him cross the concrete deck 20 minutes ago. He wore
mirrored sunglasses. A tiny black bikini clung to his slim hips. A
strip of material hid only the crack between his magnificent buttocks
and provided a small pouch to hold his ample genitals. One of the
threadbare towels provided by the management was slung around TJ's
slender but sinewy neck.

I had quickly shut my eyes as TJ had passed, although I was sure he
had not deigned to look in my direction. In fact he had given no
sign that he was aware of my presence during the three months I had
lived in the building. I told myself I had chosen the place because
it was cheap and convenient to the university campus, where I was a
graduate student in the music department, but I knew that spotting TJ
Cox emerging from the entrance, with its `vacancy' sign, and climbing
into his battered red Mustang had been the deciding factor.

I had seen TJ, a freshman, around the campus a number of times over
the preceeding year. Each time was like a revelation. He was
beautiful in that sun-goldened way that only seems to grace blond
young men from California. His height was average, or perhaps a
little less, but his body was extraordinary--slim but muscular and,
as I had been able to observe when I could catch him poolside, smooth
and honey-colored.

His place was three doors from mine along the rather rickety balcony
that gave access to the second floor apartments. A number of times,
passing his window after dark, I had attempted to peek through the
crack between curtain and frame, hoping for a more complete view of
the fabulous TJ. Once, only once, I had caught him naked, bent over
as he retreived a book from the floor. I managed a full inspection
of his long, lithe legs and, best of all, of his perfect little buns.
In the onrush of my excitement, I had fallen against the window,
making a racket. I fled around the corner of the building and looked
back to see the drape being roughly yanked back into position,
extinguishing the strip of light from TJ's room.

For days I had avoided crossing in front of his apartment, taking the
longer way down another staircase. I was terrified that he knew it
was me out there, peeping at him like some pervert. And I tried to
make my expression more neutral, to hide the mute longing that would
otherwise betray me, when we passed in the courtyard or on campus. I
veered wildly back and forth between a conviction that the blond
youth knew I was smitten, and had dismissed me as a contemptible
faggot, and and the certainty that he was completely ignorant of my
existence. I couldn't decide which would be worse.

There must have been five years difference in our ages and, of
course, we shared no classes. I had never seen him at any of the
functions--meetings, parties--organized by the university's gay
community. But neither had I ever seen him with a girl. Did he have
a sex life, I wondered? Who were his friends? Would we ever speak?
How big was his cock? (I spent the most time pondering this last
question, I'll admit.)

I could hold out no longer. I opened my eyes to slits to hide my
perusal of him and stared across the pool at TJ. He lay on his back,
hands clasped behind his head. The position emphasized the sizeable
muscles in his upper arms and the sharply defined planes of his
pectorals and hard belly. His legs were splayed. The bulge of his
basket seemed enormous. He turned his head and looked directly
toward me. Did he gesture with his chin, inviting me to approach? It
didn't seem likely. I continued to lie still, but began to breath

There was no mistaking his intention as he freed his hand from behind
his neck and signaled me with his finger. I was being summoned. As
I stood to make my way toward him, I was aware of the sudden
hardening at my loin, of the obscene bulge in the front of my trunks.
I quickly hung my towel around my neck, carefully draping it to hide
the evidence of my arousal, and hurried toward him.

I stood before him as he looked me up and down. His light colored,
grey eyes were piercing in their intensity. When he spoke his voice
was deep and musical. A faint smile played on his thin, well-shaped
lips. "You got the time?" he asked.

For a moment, the question perplexed me. I stood there mute and
confused. "What time is it, man?" he asked again, with some

"Oh, the time," I answered, almost stammering. "I'm not wearing my
watch, it's there with my stuff." I gestured back toward my own

TJ continued to stare up at me, waiting for me to do the obvious.

I returned to my place and scrabbled anxiously through books, jars of
lotion, a tee shirt, seaching for the watch. Finding it, I returned
to where he lay and managed to blurt, "It's almost four. Twenty

Once more I was caught in the grey intensity of his gaze. "Be up at
my apartment at four o'clock," he said, finally. "I'll let you lick
my asshole." His hand moved to his taut belly where he scratched
lazily before reclasping it behind his head. He closed his eyes.

Although dismissed, I continued to stand there shakily. I couldn't
credit what I had just heard, what he had just said. It was so
unbelievably crude, so incredibly arrogant.

I looked over at Mrs. Finch and her harpies. They had heard nothing.

Back on my own lounge, I began to fume. Who the fuck did TJ Cox
think he was, I asked myself? Even looking as he did, there were
limits. Fuck him. Let him lick his own asshole. Jesus. What a
thing to say. He could have said, "We can get it on," or even, "You
can go down on me." Well, if he thought I was going to show up at
four for that kind of scene, he was crazy as well as arrogant.

I heard the creak of springs from TJ's lounge and, without willing
it, looked over toward him. He had flipped over onto his front. The
spherical contours of his trim little butt were on display in the
afternoon sunlight. I could see the little creases where buttock met
thigh, the dimples at the top of the smooth globes. His legs were
spread again so that only the scanty strip of black material
prevented me from seeing right into his crack. I wondered if he was
as hairless there as were his chest and buns. I wondered whether his
anus was pink and puckered. I wondered how big the hole was. My
erection returned with such intensity that I had to flip over myself
to hide it.

Ten minutes later I opened one eye to watch TJ pass on his way to his
room. He did not look down at me.

At five minutes to four, I rose and jumped into the pool and swam
three lengths. By one minute to four I was climbing the stairs. By
four o'clock I was pressing his door bell.

As I stood on the balcony outside TJ's apartment, I heard a shower
splashing and then ceasing. A few moments later, he pulled the door
open and looked out at me. I slipped inside. He now wore only a
clean towel around his waist. His tousled blond hair was still wet
from his shower. He was breathtaking. I hated him. I loved him.

He sauntered into the kitchen and I heard the door of a refrigerator
open and then shut. He returned carrying two cans of beer and handed
one to me. He flopped onto the couch. I remained standing. His
towel had ridden up so that I could see the head of his dick, rosy,
bulbous, and the beginning of what I judged must be a long cylinder
of shaft. I longed to touch it, taste it, make love to it. I could
also make out a portion of his scrotum in the shadowy area between
his legs. He noted where my gaze was riveted.

"So. You made it," he said. For the first time, he smiled.

"I had decided I wouldn't come," I said. "But here I am. Your
graceful invitation, I guess. You've really got a way with words,
you know?"

He patted the couch and I sat down.

"I don't believe it bullshitting around, man."

"My name is Cory," I said. "You're TJ, right?"

"Yeah. Look. Cory. Let's be honest. I get hit on a lot. People
seem to like the way I look. So I want to be straight about what's
going down." He smiled again. "Who's going down," he ammended.

"Strictly top, huh? Strictly trade. Is that it?"

"I don't know the terms you people use, but I know what I dig, man.
Cory. I like getting my dick sucked. I love getting rimmed. I might
even fuck you. But I got no interest in your dick, man. Shit, I
don't even eat pussy."

"Well," I answered, "it's a long time since I've made it with anyone
where there's no reciprocity. But your hard to resist, TJ. I guess
we'll both have to dedicate ourselves to taking care of your cock." I
reached forward toward him. My hand slipped beneath the towel. I
grasped the warm, pliant flesh of his penis and began to squeeze it
gently. Immediately, it began to lengthen and grow hard. It was as
big as I had hoped it would be.

He untied the towel, pulled it from under his rump and tossed it on
the floor. As I moved closer to him and began to lower my head
toward his crotch, he stopped me.

"Like, I said. I want you to eat out my ass, first. Lie down. I'll
sit on your face."

I did as TJ instructed. He squatted over me, facing toward my feet.
As he lowered his ass toward my mouth, he pulled his cheeks apart,
exposing what lay in the tight crack between them. There was no
hair. His asshole was pink and puckered, like a rosebud. I smelled
only his sunwarmed flesh and the soap from his recent shower.

The clenched hole was small until I began working on it with my lips
and tongue. TJ's sphincter dilated and my tongue slipped inside him.
I forced it upward and began exploring the satiny, slimy walls of his
rectal tube. I alternated vigorous probes with my tongue with
attempts to suck as hard as I could on his hole. A few moments of
these ministrations and I began to taste his shit. The flavor was
nutty, delicious. I grew delerious with the flavor of him.

With one hand I reached around stroked the hard nine inches of his
erect cock. With the other I fondled his big balls, hanging down
over my chin.

He squirmed, mashing his hard buns all over my face, delighted with
what I was doing to him. But he kept his asshole positioned directly
over my mouth so that I could continue to suck on it and lick up
inside his rectum. "Oh, that's bithchin', man," he grunted. "I love
the way you eat my ass. Get your tongue in really deep. Clean it
for me, Cory."

I did as he told me, loving it as much as he did.

He lifted his foot and placed his heel on my belly, just above my
cock. He began to poke my cock with his foot, batting it back and

"Your dick is like a rock, man. You really dig eating my shit hole,
don't you?"

I could only answer by thrusting my tongue even further up his chute.
My tongue encountered the soft, crumbly texture of a turd lodged in
his gut. Still, I didn't stop. I had never done anything so dirty,
so abasing before. I wanted never to stop.

TJ, too, grew more and more excited. I was startled to feel the turd
begin to descend. Now I was frightened, but I was trapped beneath
him. He could do as he wanted. I couldn't believe he would actually
try to shit in my mouth. People didn`t do that to each other, did
they? Why would TJ want to subject me to that? Why would I let him do

"Now your'e going to eat my shit, man," TJ told me. "I'm going to
dump a turd right in your mouth. You ready?"

His sphincter opened even more widely and he grunted slightly as he
strained to force the stool into my mouth. It slid past my lips and
over my tongue. It felt long and slippery now as it moved toward the
back of my mouth.

"Suck it," he commanded. "Suck the turd out of my asshole, Cory. Oh
yeah. Oh, yeah. Your'e doing fine, piggy."

Before we were finished, TJ ejected three large turds into my mouth.
I chewed and swallowed them, wallowing in the filth he forced into

When he had no more shit to expel, I licked him clean, making sure no
trace of feces remained to stain the perfection of his rectum, his
anus, the warm cleft of his buttocks. Only when I had finished
cleaning him with my lips and tongue did he let me up.

As I rushed into the bathroom to vomit up the mess he had filled me
with, I heard him say, "Now clean yourself up, man. When you get
back, you can suck my dick until I come. If you do a good job, I'll
let you drink my piss, afterwards. You think you'll like that?"

I couldn't wait to get back to TJ.

I sunk to me my knees in the steamy shower stall. TJ stood before
me, legs slightly parted, fingering the limber length of his now
flaccid cock. He aimed it at the middle of my chest. I waited.

Now I could see the urethra dilate. The lips of his piss hole
actually curled back. The orifice gaped open and I could see the
shiny pink of the membrane that lined it. Suddenly a pencil-thick
stream of bright yellow urine gushed out, hitting me squarely between
my nipples. The smell was sharp, acrid.

TJ played the stream of piss all over me, taking care to wet me
everywhere. My own cock was rock-hard as he pissed on my crotch.

The stream moved back up my body and did not stop as it reached my
throat. It continued up past my chin and sprayed all over my face
and head, drenching my hair. Now TJ stepped closer to me so he could
improve his aim. As I opened my eyes, I could see that he had
stopped pissing for a moment but that his cock was pointed directly
at my mouth.

"Open up, you slut," he said. "I want to piss in your Goddamn

I did what he told me. He began to piss again. The frothy golden
urine splashed into my mouth and, because I couldn`t hold it all,
dribbled down my chin.

TJ yanked on my urine-drenched hair, pulling my face closer to his
pungent, dripping genitals.

"Your'e wasting my piss, fucker," he told me. "Pigs are supposed to
swallow all the piss their masters give them. Close your lips around
my dick. But don't suck on it. If you get me hard, I won't be able
to piss."

He must have been carrying a huge bladderful because what he now
commenced to piss down my throat completely filled my belly. When he
was through, I could feel his still warm urine sloshing inside me.

What an incredible half hour I had been through.

Makes you wonder if Hillary (4, Funny)

waspleg (316038) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643547)

isn't his evil twin sister

Finally a Rosen that gets it (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643551)

Now if only Hilary Rosen could get it... bitch.

Contamination (5, Insightful)

Uma Thurman (623807) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643553)

You may have meant one other thing: Under Microsoft's Shared Source licenses you may look at their code. But beware of the conditions under which they show it to you. That software can contaminate you and put your own open source software at risk if you -- even inadvertently -- copy their code. This has nothing to do with the antitrust topic so I'll say no more about that here.

This is definitely a risk to open source programming. If you've seem Microsoft code, you might not be able to work on a similar open source project. All work you've done can be questioned.

But this also applies to companies. A company that has access to Microsoft's code could come under scrutiny in the future. MS could just say they copied the code and start investigating or litigating. Some say that the GPL is a "viral" license, but the MS shared source is just a viral, and even more sneaky because the legal implications aren't written down in black and white. At least with the GPL you know up front what the legal consequences of linking a GPL object into non-GPL code will be.

Re:Contamination (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643875)

You can switch MS for FSF and GPL for closed source in that rant and it's still exactly true.

You can't look at MS shared source code and suddenly be inspired to write the same thing under a different license without running afoul of copyright law.

You can't look at GPL code and suddenly be inspired to write the same thing under a different license without running afoul of copyright law.

A company that has looked at GPL code and produces something similar under a BSD or closed source license could come under scrutiny and the copyright holder could just say they copied the code and start investigating or litigating. This has in fact happened, repeatedly, and people have sued.

This is a property of copyright and not of any specific license.

Grasping for straws (5, Insightful)

burgburgburg (574866) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643586)

Larry says that the sua sponte provision was the straw that he grasped for when he read the decision as the possible good thing from all of this.

But how likely is it that the Judge will actually exercise this power in anything but the most limited fashion, and if she does that it will not be immediately appealed (possibly by the Justice Department and Microsoft together) and overturned?

Re:Grasping for straws (3, Interesting)

Xeriar (456730) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643725)

I don't know about how exactly this plays out in the courts, but I have heard of cases where they pulled stunts like 'Well, releasing any of our APIs would be a security risk!'

And proceeded to get slapped.

Larry Rosen... (4, Funny)

mikers (137971) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643606)


"... from Larry Rosen, an attorney who works heavily on open source licensing matters ..."

I thought I read "Hillary Rosen, an attorney who works heavily against open source licensing matters ..."

That should have been a slashdot poll option:
- I have Nightmares about Hilary Rosen chasing me and trying to delete my MP3s.

Hogwash (5, Insightful)

EccentricAnomaly (451326) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643622)

Mr. Rosen is coming off as an apologist for the broken legal system. Just my impression maybe, but he seems to be sidestepping questions and trying his darndest not to say anything that offends the legal establishment.

My impression is that this whole trial was a joke, and served only to line the pockets of many, many J.D.'s. Maybe I'm wrong and this decision really will stop Microsoft's efforts to squash any innovations that it doesn't own...

I'm wrong all of the time :)

J.D.s? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643660)

Juvenile Delinquents?

Re:J.D.s? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643803)

Doctor of Jurisprudence; PhD equivalent == law school.

Re:Hogwash (4, Insightful)

Russ Nelson (33911) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643673)

I'm sure that Larry would be happy to agree with you in many cases that the legal system is broken. An attorney's job isn't to fix the legal system. It's to help you live with the existing legal system. You want change, go vote.

Re:Hogwash (5, Funny)

epukinsk (120536) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643747)

In other news, Tim Bookman in an interview with Plumbers Today refrained from making blanket depricating remarks about plumbing professionals. Posters on the online forum Slashdot reprimanded Bookman for sidestepping inflammatory remarks about plumbers. "He should just accept that plumbers are a bunch of greedy bastards and his profession is a joke," remarked one poster.

Re:Hogwash (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643967)

"He should just accept that plumbers are a bunch of greedy bastards and his profession is a joke," remarked one poster.

Hmm. My plumber helps prevent me from getting buried in shit. Lawyers, on the other hand...

Re:Hogwash (1)

Moofie (22272) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643770)

...or maybe, he really believes in the system, and he is now going to be vigilant in ensuring that it serves The People as well as possible.

Character assassination is a pretty ugly thing, amigo.

Re:Hogwash (2)

MikeBabcock (65886) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643773)

I'll have to disagree with you there -- Rosen comes off as knowing that the law applies to specifics, not just generalities, and that many of the Slashdot questions given were about related but not directly court-considered issues. If the court didn't mention X, Y or Z then those aren't going to actually be affected by the ruling, in legal terms. You can't ask Rosen to speculate on the possible outcomes since that will be the responsibility of a future judge in a future lawsuit.

Re:Hogwash (2)

idfrsr (560314) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643782)

well he is a lawyer :)

Besides if he said anything definitive, wouldn't all the slashdot kiddies run around saying:
"well Larry said...."

The Antitrust Act (2, Insightful)

podperson (592944) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643933)

I think if you put all this into historical context then the failure of the courts to break up Microsoft's monopoly was only to be expected.

Historical remedies to monopolies have always been late and ineffectual. (Indeed, the actual presence of anti-monopoly laws is almost unique to the US. Many countries don't seem to care.) The best we can hope for from the courts (and this is optimistic) is that they not be manipulated to help maintain the monopolies.

Even this hope seems forlorn.

When you trace newspaper stories about Microsoft's lobbying efforts over the last several years, it is amazing how cheap it is to buy political influence rather than, say, develop better products.

I remember back in college a drunk law student asked me, "What do you think the Law is for?" I muttered something about public safety, enforcing social norms, protecting property, and he laughed at me.

"The Law exists to protect the rich from the poor."

It's protecting Microsoft from us. And it's protecting the MPAA from people who want to skip the advertising on their DVDs.

not broken, just slow and deliberate (3, Insightful)

Lewis Mettler, Esq. (553022) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643996)

Lawyers need not apologize for the legal system we have.

Yes, it is slow. Very slow in fact. But, in time the legal system will get it all sorted out.

What does that mean?

It means that you can not wrap up Microsoft's antitrust problems by looking solely at the silly judgment handed down by CKK. That is a horrible decision for the technology industry and the entire field of antitrust law.

It is true that two key issues (attempted monopolization and product tying) were not being resolved by the remedy decision offered by CKK. And, the States may yet still appeal that ruling. For the benefit of the antitrust laws it clearly should be appealed. Simply put, the remedy does not correct illegal acts found by the appellate court giving the district court its instructions. That is pure and simple. The fake settlement now approved by the district judge fails to even attempt to eliminate commingling of code found to be illegal by the appellate court. I can not imagine the appellate court thinking their decision should just be ignored as the district judge has done. She did not and does not have the authority to pick and choose which parts of the appellate decision fit into the settlement and simply ignore the violations of law that do not.

That having been said however, perhaps it is good that CKK was not given the ability to decide either the attempted monopolization issue or the tying issue. No doubt she would have screw those issues up royal.

The AOL (Netscape) and SUN private antitrust law suits will take up the attempted monopolization issue (AOL) and product tying (SUN and AOL). And, since the CKK decision does not address those issues at all, Microsoft lost any argument that the AOL and SUN cases should hold off because all illegal acts were corrected in the DOJ/States case. They simply have not been. They were remanded for further litigation and neither party brought them before the district court for further litigation. That simply means they are undecided. Except for one important point.

The appellate court did lay out the factual findings it wants to see to find attempted monopolization and product tying. And, you can bet the AOL and SUN lawyers are boning up on the facts they need to prove to support such a conclusion. But, keep in mind that both the AOL and SUN law suits go before juries. That means that a jury will decide the facts regarding attempted monopolization (can anyone really think that Microsoft was not trying to monopolize browsers and in turn the internet?) and product tying (again can anyone really think products are not tied if it is impossible not to buy one without also buying the other?).

Microsoft has lied for years claiming they are not doing when every single person knows they are in fact doing. They lied simply in their effort to avoid legal liability for violating the federal antitrust laws. And, those chickens are highly likely to come home to roost.

It is too bad that the CKK decision is as meaningless as it is. It does nothing to permit competition in browsers, media players or any other application bundled by Microsoft to preclude competition. Absolutely nothing.

Worse yet the benefit that others may get from the exposure of APIs benefits Microsoft more than it does OS competitors. Completely opening the source code for XP would benefit Microsoft just as open source benefits Linux now. That is why they try to open the code a bit. But, with the exception of interoperability (which is important) gaining greater access to Microsoft code is of little value for an application developer focused upon the Linux desktop market. It helps those writing for Microsoft platforms. And, that is why the API issue is a non-issue as far as OS competition in concerned. Opening the APIs might help some application markets provided there have not been picked by Microsoft for illegal bundling (i.e. browsers, media players, instant messaging, video players, etc). Having the entire source code for XP is of no value if Microsoft screws all consumers you might want to sell to by first requiring them to buy, install, support and use the Microsoft brand.

If the market for your product is not "open and fair" not much else matters at all.

It will take the AOL case to force browsers to be sold separately. And, until that time Microsoft will have succeeded in illegally gaining a new monopoly right under the noses of the stupid DOJ and shortsighted judge.

And, it will take the SUN law suit to stop Microsoft from tying its desktop systems to Microsoft servers. Yes, that is what the SUN suit is largely up to.

Let's just hope that neither AOL or SUN settle for money and fail to put into place the necessary adjustments to Microsoft's conduct that will permit fair and open markets for the entire industry. Otherwise, we have the stupid DOJ to credit for all but ruining the computer software industry simply by refusing to enforce the federal antitrust laws (after it wins the case and the appellate court hands it a victory).

Answers (5, Insightful)

itwerx (165526) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643626)

Is it just me or are a lot of his responses half-answers and/or downright evasive...?

Re:Answers (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643645)

Well, he *is* a lawyer.. that's part of their training.

Re:Answers (1)

itwerx (165526) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643783)

Yes and no. His training is to investigate the depth and breadth of a case and the associated caselaw.
Here he sounds more like he's angling for a political career! :)

Re:Answers (2)

program21 (469995) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643717)

It definitely seems that way to me, like me picked out a small part of a question and went into detail about that, leaving other issues unaddresses (some of which I think SHOULD have been).

Re:He's a Lawyer (5, Informative)

CharlieG (34950) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643791)

Of course his answers are half answers or evasive! Lawyers, when talking on broad ground (which this decision is) will give half/evasive answers, because there are SO many exceptions to everything.

Ask him a SPECIFIC question, and you'll get (if you PAY him for it) as specific answer.

That's the way the law works - it's not really there to answer broad questions, but very specific ones

What the ruling really style (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643634)

Money talks.

Moron (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643637)

I stopped on the first question. It's obvious that this fucking idiot doesn't have the first fucking clue what he's talking about. Yet another moron spreading the FUD, and yet another taco and cowboy to eat it the fuck up.

1. Settlement clearly states that IBM can sell you a computer without Windows and not be penalized by Microsoft.

2. API's aren't "buried" in MSDN. MSDN is not a subscription service. There are no licensing requirements for MSDN. MSDN is a freely accessable website.

Given the level of insight spewed forth like rotten diahrea from the first answer, I don't think I'll bother with the rest of the revolution inspiring bullshit FUD that you stupid motherfuckers feel the need to fucking propogate. And yes, I'll have fries with that.

The complicated futility of ignorance (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643734)

prepare youself to be moderated into oblivion.

For this is slashdot, and there is no room here for intelligent comments, no matter how factual.

In the future however, I would like to caution you against using too much profanity in your communication. The only possible response on the part of your audience is to tune you out completely.

Take care,
Teh Grammar Patroll

Re:Moron (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643788)

Geeze Bill, not much work today? Still bitter about that ruling? Don't worry, everything will be better soon.

1. Settlement clearly states that IBM can sell you a computer without Windows and not be penalized by Microsoft.

That was a slashdot member asking a question, and describing the situation BEFORE the ruling.

2. API's aren't "buried" in MSDN. MSDN is not a subscription service. There are no licensing requirements for MSDN. MSDN is a freely accessable website.

Oh yeah? What's this? [] And this? []

Re:Moron (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643919)

Hey moron, thanks for posting 2 links that do absolutely nothing to back up your post.

Editors please explain the acronyms (4, Insightful)

jeblucas (560748) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643638)

This would be much appreciated, and is good editing practice in general. After all, Google thinks this is a real news site. The first appearence of MSDN, OSS, OEM, CKK, API, (ok, MSFT and IBM are probably fine, but it's a maze for non-programmers--set some standards) and on and on and on. I figured out some of them, but I want to get a headache from the gay-porn offtopic posts, not trying to work out what the friggin question is.

Re:Editors please explain the acronyms (5, Informative)

wiredog (43288) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643651)

MSDN==Microsoft Developers Network, OSS==Open Source Software, OEM==Original Equipment Manufacturer, API==Application Programming Interface

Never seen CKK before.

Re:Editors please explain the acronyms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643677)

Examine the name of the judge.

Re:Editors please explain the acronyms (2)

lunenburg (37393) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643679)

Never seen CKK before.

Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly

Re:Editors please explain the acronyms (5, Informative)

Christopher Whitt (74084) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643856)

CKK = initials of Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly

Re:Editors please explain the acronyms (4, Insightful)

Jeppe Salvesen (101622) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643828)

I would encourage the slashdot editors to use the xhtml acronym tag for acronyms.

Obscure reference explained (3, Informative)

Cerlyn (202990) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643663)

Larry Rosen wrote:

"Just like in Garson Keillor's hometown of Lake Wobegon..."

This is a quasi-reference to the radio show A Prarie Home Companion [] (with Garrison Keillor), a regular segment of which is indeed titled "News from Lake Wobegon" (Keillor's hometown).

Boy do I feel like an NPR geek for knowning this. Listen it online, or catch it on your local NPR station if you can (in my view, the FM broadcasts sound better, and have much lower bandwidth costs :).

Re:Obscure reference explained (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643700)

Listening to NPR doesn't make you a geek, it makes you a tool.

Re:Obscure reference explained (2)

Russ Nelson (33911) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643702)

"Obscure"?? What spaceship did you just disembark from? Nothing is obscure in the Day of Google.

Asshole's comment explained (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643724)

Only an arrogant prick (ya know, the type that likes to listen to NPR) would assume that they were the only article reader who knows about Keillor and Lake Wobegone and thus must instruct the unwashed masses.

Even further off topic... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643726)

Listen it online, or catch it on your local NPR station if you can (in my view, the FM broadcasts sound better, and have much lower bandwidth costs :).

It may be maybe better for APHC, which airs in the afternoon, but there's no way I'm going to be awake enough to appreciate the humor of Car Talk by 9am. I have to stream that one.

Re:Obscure reference explained (1)

tiedyejeremy (559815) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643742)

keillor is the best thing on radio today - today meaning era, not November 11, 2002. but I digress...

Re:Obscure reference explained (1)

Moofie (22272) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643787)

Yeah, listen to it, if you want to go SCREAMING PAINT CHEWING MAD from how INSIPID and HORRIBLE it is.

*pant pant*

OK, so I'm not a Garrison Keillor fan. I guess somebody might think he's funny and/or quaint, but I sure don't.

Re:Obscure reference explained (2)

epukinsk (120536) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643793)

Boy do I feel like an NPR geek for knowning this.

You shouldn't. "A Prairie Home Companion is heard by nearly 5 million U.S. listeners each week on over 511 public radio stations."

Re:Obscure reference explained (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643823)

He's got such a boner for himself, he thinks he's the only one with enough intelligence to know about some half-assed boring old flake and his radio show.

Re:Obscure reference explained (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643932)

he thinks he's the only one with enough intelligence to know about some half-assed boring old flake and his radio show.

And that having this piece of data is sign of intelligence. What a tool!

Re:Obscure reference explained (1)

DrMaurer (64120) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643837)

PHC is actually pretty popular, and has no relation to being a geek what so ever.

However, it also sucks. A lot.

To each his/her own, I suppose, I don't even listen to NPR on the weekend.

Re:Obscure reference explained (2)

Dr. Awktagon (233360) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643853)

Hey, I listen to NPR. I listen to a lot of public radio in general (jazz station). I used to listen to Garson Keillor regularly. I own one of his books. It's not *that* far off the map.

Ever seen Keillor in person? He's one ugly motherfucker. Good voice though.

Thank you, drive through.

XBox? (3, Interesting)

MORTAR_COMBAT! (589963) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643670)

It is the *use* of that monopoly power to gain unfair advantage over competitors that is prevented. A company can't, for example, use its monopoly in one business area to gain a monopoly in another business area. It can't use a monopoly in water softening systems to force its customers to buy the company's own salt. It can't use its monopoly to prevent competitors from selling their products through independent distributors. It can't sell products at a loss to force competitors out of business.

So Microsoft, having been found guilty of having a desktop operating system monopoly, is further digging a hole for itself by selling the XBox at a loss? Or is this too unrelated a business to fall under anti-trust supervision?

Re:XBox? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643715)

I'm not too sure what to eat for lunch, maybe I should go to McDonalds and get a quarter pounder meal like I do every day.

Re:XBox? (4, Insightful)

Russ Nelson (33911) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643716)

That's not why it sells the XBox at a loss. It sells it at a loss so that people can afford to buy games which are then profitable.

Microsoft would be selling at a loss to drive (e.g.) Nintendo out of business if it also sold the games at a loss.

Re:XBox? (2, Informative)

forevermore (582201) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643763)

Unfortunately, selling console systems at a loss seems to be a fairly standard practice. It's my understanding that both Nintendo and Sony do the same thing.

Probably OK on XBox (5, Interesting)

dmaxwell (43234) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643772)

I would guess that Microsoft is OK on the XBox for now. Selling consoles at a loss and making money on titles is an established practice in the console arena. I don't see them getting in trouble for that. If they dumped games for less than it cost to make them then I think they would be in trouble. I don't see any evidence they're doing that though.

The other way they could get in trouble is by somehow leveraging the Windows desktop monopoly to bootstrap the XBox. It is not at all clear this is the case. Yes, they are using technology from the NT codebase like the kernel and DirectX but mere use of technology from the desktop won't do it. Where this gets interesting is if Microsoft goes out of their way to make it easy to port games between Windows and the XBox. It would be up to Nintendo or Sony to make something of it.

Re:Probably OK on XBox (2)

Planesdragon (210349) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643798)

Where this gets interesting is if Microsoft goes out of their way to make it easy to port games between Windows and the XBox. It would be up to Nintendo or Sony to make something of it

Not really. The Xbox was designed to be "PC-like" from the get-go.

Sony and Nintendo don't really have much of a cause to raise a stink--if they wanted to make a "PC like" system and then MS sqaushed them, they would, but they don't.

It's like MS only letting Outlook run on Windows; Apple really doesn't have anything to say about that.

Re:XBox? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643829)

> So Microsoft, having been found guilty of having a desktop operating system monopoly, is further digging a hole for itself by selling the XBox at a loss? Or is this too unrelated a business to fall under anti-trust supervision?

Different market - game consoles vs x86-PC operating systems.

Market definition... (2)

SPYvSPY (166790) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643953)

...the first question in every antitrust issue is how to scope the market that is being measured for anti-competitive behavior. It is basically an unanswerable question, although there are criteria (e.g., who are the competitors?) that apply to help guide a court in deciding which market is subject to the court's antitrust analysis. In this case, it seems clear that the XBOX lives in a different market space than Windows. If for no other reason than that the competitors against Windows are (mostly) totally different entities than the competitors against XBOX.

do ya hafta? (1)

tiedyejeremy (559815) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643692)

Do you have to read the whole Q&A session to post a response? It got a little long for me. I guess that was a function of doublespeak lengthening it?

Actually, the responses, mostly, seemed adequate to me.

Disagreement on may part does not constitute a bad read, no matter how I act!

But perhaps distribution is the point (5, Insightful)

Zentalon (622905) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643706)

The most significant parts of the court ruling affect Microsoft's relationships with the OEMs (the hardware manufacturers), and specifically give those OEMs a substantially freer environment in which to work. Windows won, thus far, by convincing all OEMs to distribute it (and only it). That made it universally available, so it made sense if you were an application developer to develop apps for it, and it made sense if you were an average consumer or business customer to just take advantage of what you'd inevitably have to begin with.

But now, with this ruling, FOR THE FIRST TIME, OEMs have the freedom to distribute whatever they want without fearing any kind of retaliation from Microsoft. The point of the trial, as Kollar-Kotelly wrote, was to restore the opportunity for competition in the market. Now we just need to compete. So let's do it. We need to make it compelling to OEMs to distribute Linux, and we need to make sure that there are enough applications available that do enough of the kinds of things users need that home users and business users both find it reasonable to use Linux instead of Windows.

Re:But perhaps distribution is the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643852)

> But now, with this ruling, FOR THE FIRST TIME, OEMs have the freedom to distribute whatever they want without fearing any kind of retaliation from Microsoft.

I think they still have to fear, lest they wind up like Be Inc and find their complaints filed by their next buyer because they were forced out of business before the legal remedies could be applied.

"Justice (sufficiently) delayed is companies denied."

Just what will the "enforcement committe" enforce? (5, Insightful)

n0ano (148272) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643711)

The court appointed an "enforcement committee" to protect the plaintiffs' interests.

If I rember correctly the "enforcement committee" will be created by, and controlled by,
the Microsoft board of directors. Given that this board has a slightly vested interest in seeing that the actions of Microsoft remain unchecked what are the odds that this committee will be nothing but a toothless lapdog?

Making the "enforcement committee" a part of the company it is supposed to monitor is ludicrous and one of the biggest jokes in the entire settlement.

Emperor Gates (0, Troll)

drxenos (573895) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643721)

Do ya think when Bill finally buys the rights to the entire US government, he will have Saddam over for tea? I hope he lets me keep my Linux box.

Re:Emperor Gates (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643881)

You are a freeking moron. Its paranoid idiots like you that give the entire open source movement a bad name.

Completely disgusted; the man is a fraud! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643736)

I was completely disgusted and dissapointed by his failure to address any real issues brought forward that are relevant to the case and the settlement and which do need a real opinion. I am not saying that the settlement is nessisarly as bad as some people do, but there is nothing this man has said that has any real relevance to understanding anything relates to it!

For example, the question of api documentation, and if it is descriminitory in the way it is made available and the fact that there are additional terms and conditions on it's use that are restrictive to OSS use of that documentation (the CIFS release being an excellant example of this). This question is never answered but mearly sideslipped under an apology and generalization that the Microsoft "monopoly will be watched"! What utter hogwash.

And watched by who? An compliance executive appointed by the board of Microsoft itself, and overseen by a judge who has chosen to permit any issues discovered and disclosed by the said compliance officer can remain secret and unavailable for current or future anti-trust cases! Yet, while saying "they will be watched", he fails to mention that the process of such oversight is itself inherently flawed.

I will agree there are many questions that were asked which were irrelevant and proper to dismiss. There are many other questions and issues he chose to simply ignore or dismiss out of hand with statements like "they wont be allowed to do that", but not stating how or why this would be true under the settlement, that are DIRECTLY RELEVANT, and which are the very reasons why he was supposed to be asked questions in the first place.

I gathered no information from this interview, and consider it useless that it had even occured. Someone suggested he was writing as an apologist for the legal system. If so, he has a lot to appologize for, starting with my wasted bandwidth.

Too funny! (3, Funny)

Ranger Rick (197) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643760)

I load up the article, and what do I see?

Screenshot [] ...

Re:Too funny! (1)

tiedyejeremy (559815) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643802)


Hockey on the brain... (1)

imadork (226897) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643764)

I just read the title of this article as:

Larry Rosen on the Microsoft Penalty Killing

and it still made sense!

Marketplace? (0, Flamebait)

Moschaef (624770) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643781)

Microsoft's XP software installation and upgrade model seems to be a dud in the marketplace too. The more Microsoft does nasty things like that to its customers, the more those customers turn to Linux and open source. So I don't see that as being a problem that the antitrust judge had to deal with.

Hmmmmm Market Forces aren't supposed to work against a monopoly... Maybe it's time to face facts?!? There have always been alternatives and Microsoft only has a monopoly on WINDOWS!

My question (2)

wowbagger (69688) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643795)

I feel Mr. Rosen missed the point of my question.

To put it bluntly, I was asking who is to blame, the judge or the prosecution - was it that the prosecution failed to make its case, or that the judge failed to decide based on the case.

Now, I personally feel that it was the former - the prosecution failed to make its case, and so the judge decided the case brought.

Mr. Rosen seems to have either missed the point or side stepped it, but that's just my view.

Does anybody else have any opinions on this? Was I unclear in my question, or did Mr. Rosen misunderstand it, or did he duck it?

/me dons Armor, +20 vs flames.

Re:My question (1)

workindev (607574) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643848)

was it that the prosecution failed to make its case, or that the judge failed to decide based on the case

Or C) The prosecution had no case to make in the first place.

Hard to take comments like this seriously... (4, Insightful)

Cutriss (262920) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643796)

Your real question, I guess, is hidden in your leading comment, that Microsoft is "pretty much doing what they want these days." After this antitrust decision, they're going to be watched intensely for evidence of anticompetitive behavior. I don't think they're going to be doing only what they want, at least for a few years.

<vader>I find your proliferation of faith disturbing...</vader>

I don't think I'm being too paranoid when I say that I agree with the questioner. Microsoft has already had its warnings in previous suits. In the media, the winning and losing parties always have some one-liner to say about trial results that goes something along the lines of "This case demonstrates that ___".

I think we can easily say that "This case demonstrates that even the government is too dependent upon Microsoft (technologically, likely contractually, and *definitely* economically) to put a stop to their offenses committed against businesses and consumers."

Microsoft Press Release on Penalty Ruling! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643806)

here []

Ah but which linux to preload? - for real (2, Interesting)

Flamesplash (469287) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643808)

So, when MS's hold on computer makers is released and they start shipping systems with linux installed it seems like we'll simply start hearing people complain that they can't get a system with linux XYZ installed because some other linux is more well known and therefor DELL/COMPAQ/GATEWAY etc... will ship that version over others.

How does one decide which linux is the linux to be shipped?

Just because there is more than one way to do something doesn't mean it should be done that many ways.

Re:Ah but which linux to preload? - for real (1)

HexRei (515117) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643980)

How bout just being able to buy a PC sans Windows (or any software)? Since most Linux is completely free, why does it need to ship with an OS at all?

Does this mean we can finally write to NTFS safely (5, Interesting)

Myrv (305480) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643842)

Where do filesystem formats fall in this settlement. Is a filesystem considered an API with respect to this ruling or is it completely ignored. And if it's included does it fall under the required to release category or can Microsoft still hide it claiming security concerns (or some such nonsense).

I've been eagerly anticipating a stable (and safe) NTFS writable module fr linux but it won't happen until MS is forced to release the specs.

what's IT all mean? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4643870)

IT's ALL about trust [] , right?

wrong. IT's ALL about money for these ill eagle corepirate slimebawls.

dastardly lowrating aside, we notice the "?field leveling?" beginning to take effect already, with our being found to be one of the
"Top 10 Companies of 2002"(tm) [] , on fuddle's search thingy.

you may see this as just more ineptness on the part of the kingdumb, or annoying shameless promotion on our part. we see IT as some notion that FraUDuleNT Godless sloth may not be abull to keep the good gnus DOWn, with a little help.

licensed reverse engineering? (5, Interesting)

ethereal (13958) | more than 11 years ago | (#4643997)

Reverse engineering may be done only if Microsoft allows it in their licenses. Consult a lawyer before you reverse engineer something.

Is this true? Since reverse engineering has been deemed legal in the U.S. in at least some circumstances (Phoenix BIOS, for instance) and it's unlikely that anyone granted a right to reverse engineer in their licenses, it seems strange to state that a license is required to reverse engineer. Is this some new legal doctrine, or just a confusing answer?

Microsoft Tax = Bad Logic (2, Interesting)

malfunct (120790) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644003)

I hate when people here argue about the "microsoft tax" feeling that if windows
wasn't bundled the computer they were purchasing
would be $200 cheaper.

First off I think OEM's pay something like $15 per liscense for windows. That means if there were any discount it would only be $15 at most.

Second you need to look at the fact it costs far more to make a computer to different specs. That means a computer with no OS costs MORE to make, that means that you actually get a discount for ordering your computer the same way that a billion other users ordered it.

Last you should examine the price, how many $999 or $1199 or $1399 computers have you see on the market? You think that is a direct refelection of the cost of goods? No not really, computer companies pick numbers that look good from a marketing stanpoint when they set retail prices. So if computers all came OS free then you would see computers for the same price as when you buy windows.

With that said quit whining "microsoft tax" and realize that you pay nothing to get that bit of plastic and have the computer ready to boot. If you don't want windows its just as fast to install linux whether windows is on the machine or not.

One thing the anti-trust case will do is allow some vendors that have enough demand to start up an assembly line that installs linux as the last step instead of windows. This didn't happen before because there was a cost to the company because of microsofts anti-competative licence as well as the cost to start up the alternative assembly line to install the alternate OS. Now you just have the cost of that assembly line and we will see if that drops under the bar to get the PC's produced. I would say that if it does you will see Compaq and Dell computers with linux within 6 months. Otherwise you will know its too expensive for those companies (for one reason or another) to start installing alternate OS's and they don't think they can recoup the costs.

No selling at a loss? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4644008)

It can't sell products at a loss to force competitors out of business.

What does this mean for X-Box?

Or perhaps even Internet Explorer?

Answers vs. Opinions (3, Insightful)

paranoic (126081) | more than 11 years ago | (#4644009)

But as any lawyer will point out, these aren't answers, but opinions. Learn the difference.
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