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Registered Traveler ID Initiative

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the your-papers-please dept.

Privacy 250

Broadcatch writes "At the coming CardTech/SecurTech in Washington D.C. the Transportation Security Administration will make their first public announcement of the Registered Traveler ID Initiative . Seems they haven't gotten the word that ID cards are a bad idea."

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First .ogg post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686067)

I refuse to purchase this product until it supports the .ogg format

Re:First .ogg post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686096)

That was awesome.

Re:First .ogg post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686156)

Oh no! Secure travel! (-1, Troll)

LumpishGenius (621219) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686069)

Everybody run!!!

First post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Cow Hoard (611504) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686070)

Whee!

frost pist (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686072)

Oooh, that hurts!

FP (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686080)

Fifth Post! But How would you like 3000th post! [slashdot.org] 150 more comments to go! Help show the world that linux sucks!

IDs bad! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686083)

Oh my God! This traveler ID is so evil! We must burn down the White House for our indignation!

Re:IDs bad! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686200)

Don't repeat the loyalist's mistakes. Burn the president instead.

It wouldn't have made a difference! (5, Insightful)

Kevin Burtch (13372) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686099)

These politicians trying to push this through are
just playing on the fears of the people who really
have no idea what happened on 9/11!

They KNEW exactly who was getting on these planes!
Not one of the terrorists used a fake identity or alias!
All of them were suspected terrorists, and they all
used their own identity.

The government is just trying to shift the blame
away from themselves for failure to actually block
these terrorists from boarding the planes ALL AT
THE SAME TIME.

Same goes for the cameras with the face-recognition
software... they're POINTLESS, except they allow
the US government to track it's own citizens!

But it might make a difference in the future! (5, Informative)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686135)

The argument is necesarially that these measures would have prevented past terrorist attacks, but tht it might help prevent future ones. It doesn't get to the root problem of what happened on September 11th (there's a lot of people who really really really really really hates us), but that wouldn't be a reason to not do this.

Of course, the more security you put in place, the more secretive nefarious people will try to be. I wonder if it's more likely to catch a terrorist who knows there's extreme security so they're very delibrate in their actions and extremely careful, versus catching a terrorist who thinks there is minimal security so is less likely to be so secretive and careful.

F-bacher

Re:But it might make a difference in the future! (5, Funny)

anthony_dipierro (543308) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686285)

I wonder if it's more likely to catch a terrorist who knows there's extreme security so they're very delibrate in their actions and extremely careful, versus catching a terrorist who thinks there is minimal security so is less likely to be so secretive and careful.

"We're sorry folks, this has been a honeypot flight. You're not actually at your expected destination. Please schedule a new flight at the front desk."

Re:But it might make a difference in the future! (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686332)

Most likely, in a secure environment the terrorist will switch to a more easy, unprotected target. Their advantage is that they can chose freely, and you can protect at top security everything.

Anyway, I'm for IDs but more for the low profile delinquence that for terrorists, who have their time to prepare and get false or even true IDs.

Re:It wouldn't have made a difference! (1)

gr0nd (128937) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686360)

I think preventing these people from boarding the planes is the wrong approach. Schneier is correct that this is a system that fails badly. Why hasn't more progress been made in securing the cockpits? What's the point of penalizing 100% of the people (millions of travelers) for the potential actions of a couple of hundred? Why empty a terminal, because some idiot took a nap on the job? This is not the solution.

Yes, i DO have an ID number. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686102)

And that number is 615639

Re:Yes, i DO have an ID number. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686202)

This person is a known TROLL! [slashdot.org]

Mod down accordingly AND the next time you have mod points you should retroactively mod anonymous coword [slashdot.org] down for this post!

Re:Yes, i DO have an ID number. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686208)

No you don't. That's the downside to being an AC.

other ID's (1, Insightful)

skydude_20 (307538) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686103)

Seems they haven't gotten the word that ID cards are a bad idea
I'm sure they said the same stuff back in the day when drivers licences came out, but now everyone has it, if not a drivers licence at least an ID so they can still get their beer.

Re:other ID's (5, Interesting)

Idarubicin (579475) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686177)

I'm sure they said the same stuff back in the day when drivers licences came out, but now everyone has it, if not a drivers licence at least an ID so they can still get their beer.

Yes, and we've established that driver's licenses are a very 'leaky' piece of identification from an age verification perspective. Everyone on Slashdot who has ever owned a fake driver's license--or borrowed a license (real or otherwise) from an older sibling--raise your hand. Yes, I thought so.

Having a single magical card that identifies you to transportation agencies is not a panacea; it just creates a false sense of security. Even if it is tied to biometric data, there will be leaks in the system. Finally, if errors (innocent or not) creep into the system, a card with an aura of infallibility will make error correction difficult if not impossible. ("I'm sorry Mr. Gustaffsson--your last name is too long for the name field. From now on, you will be Mr. Gustaff. Have a nice day.")

And identifying people even with 100% accuracy is insufficient to solve the problem that we're targeting. Bear in mind that all of the 9/11 hijackers used their own legitimate identification to board the aircraft. Thorough screening of baggage and alert gate personnel are far more important if the goal is to protect airplanes. This ID system merely means that we will be able to accurately identify the remains at the crash site.

Re:other ID's (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686354)

So are you actually saying that we would be better off without driver's licenses as well?

It's pretty clear to me that driver's licenses, leaky as they are, actually do a tremendous amount of good. Most criminals are not the masterminds that you seem to think they are.

ID can be good (1, Interesting)

EggplantMan (549708) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686108)

While we as citizens of a free country may balk at the idea of having a national ID system, in europe, where social policies are much more advanced and education in general is higher, these systems are commonplace. Take Russia for example, Boris Yeltsin implemented a similar program in his regime and they haven't had any problems with it since. It seems to me that ID cards are an excellent idea in these trying times.

Re:ID can be good (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686116)

difference is, russians trust their gov't more than us americans trust ours, as sad as that is.
We've gotten use to the fact that companies and government are trying to take advantage of us. It's commonplace. Think about it- our constitution is based on governmental paranoia.

Re:ID can be good (1, Offtopic)

corbettw (214229) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686129)

"...in europe, where social policies are much more advanced and education in general is higher, these systems are commonplace. Take Russia for example..."

I don't have a firm opinion on national ID cards, one way or the other, but you can't seriously believe that *Russia* is an example of a "more advanced" society??

IDs can be bad (3, Informative)

neurostar (578917) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686160)

Even though there are no visible problems with the nation ID system in Russia, that doesn't mean there aren't problems. The things that people should be worried about (abuse of power, theft, fraud) are, for the most part, crimes that will be kept secret.

Abuse of power will be kept secret for the obvious reason that the government will not want people to know about it. The other types of crimes relating to the IDs (theft, fraud, identity theft) will also be kept more secretive because the government will not want to provide evidence that the system is enabling more crimes.

I think we should sit back and take a long while and think about ID cards. As another poster pointed out, the terrorists of 9/11 didn't do anything that could have been prevented by having national ID cards.

neurostar

Re:ID can be good (5, Interesting)

Malc (1751) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686216)

Have you tried this attitude in the UK? There are many people there who believe it is their God-given right to walk the streets in anonymity. Previous attempts by the goverment to introduce any kind of national ID have been rejected. When I as living in the US, many American friends of mine cautioned me about not carrying ID, stating I ran the risk of being treated like a vagrant or something by the police. This made the US feel a bit like a police state to me. So don't tell me that this attitude towards acceptance of ID is more prevalent in Europe.

Re:ID can be good (for totalitarian regimes) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686223)

Boris Yeltsin implemented a similar program in his regime and they haven't had any problems with it since.

The key word here is "regime." A regime is actually what some of us are trying to avoid...

Re:ID can be good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686226)

Since European ID-cards aren't electronic (unless you want to) you aren't leaving any traces if you just use an ID-card to prove your age in a bar, or prove your identity at the border (within Europe).

This proposal would mean that you leave a trace everytime you travel on the plane or train within country.

Re:ID can be good (0, Troll)

rossz (67331) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686275)

in europe, where social policies are much more advanced and education in general is higher


Europe is not more socially advanced, unless you consider hardcore socialism to be a more advanced system than capitalism. I don't consider it more advanced when the government attempts to control every aspect of your life. I don't consider it more advanced when the government spies on you every moment you are out in the public.

What evidence do you have to back up your statement that Europeans are more educated?

Oh, I get it! You're a troll!

ironic (2, Insightful)

SexyKellyOsbourne (606860) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686111)

How ironic that they don't know how bad national IDs are, considering that the Bush administration are conservative Christians!

Here's why national IDs are bad:

Revelations 13:16-18 [biblegateway.com]

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

How is this flamebait?! (1)

Travoltus (110240) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686143)

This is an admonishment against ID's from a religious perspective.

Oh how I'd love to metamod this one...

Not a problem (1)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686149)

I've heard that the anti-christ is coming from Europe. When all of Europe is as one, then he shall arise, placing his mark on Europeans with biometric id cards, created to use sexidecimal.

Sorry US, you don't get to participate in the fall of the World, unless you want to start cooperating with the rest of the world. Oh right, nevermind.

F-bacher

Re:Not a problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686358)

Sorry US, you don't get to participate in the fall of the World, unless you want to start cooperating with the rest of the world. Oh right, nevermind


If the end of the world comes from Europe, I think we should give an special mention to George Bush, at least he is trying hard to get it first :-P

Re:ironic, No Moronic is the operative word (1)

bstadil (7110) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686189)

Bush administration are conservative Christians!

I think that is part of the problem.

Quoting bible scripture as an argument went out the around the Enlightenment, but maybe that specific branch of thinking has not hit you or the current administration.

Re:ironic, No Moronic is the operative word (5, Insightful)

neurostar (578917) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686204)

Quoting bible scripture as an argument went out the around the Enlightenment...

If you would care to read the post, you would see that he was not arguing, but pointing out and inconsistency and contradiction.

neurostar

Point taken (1)

bstadil (7110) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686314)

Point well taken, although it still leaves the implication that the reasoning that is brought to bear somehow should be bound by scripture.

In this case Christian, but the problem I see is scripture not the specific variety.

Ever wondered where '666' comes from? (2)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686237)

It is a loss numerological translation for the name of the Roman Emperor Nero, who persecuted Christians with intense fervor.

Re:ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686302)

> How ironic that they don't know how bad
> national IDs are, considering that the Bush
> administration are conservative Christians!

I don't know if they are Christians or not but
they sure as heck are NOT conservatives. Pretty
far to the left as far as I'm concerned.

But your point about a national identity card
is well taken. Most likely a national identity
card will lead to a global identity device which
will be permanantly embeded in the person and is
the mark that the Bible speaks of.

Re:ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686313)

That really refers to the picture of the beast... so unless the VISA logo is the symbol of the beast, I think we're OK ;)

I can see it now..... (3, Funny)

Newer Guy (520108) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686112)

At every airport gate, ship dock, bus platform and train station....a guy that kinda looks like the guy in the Sprint PCS commercials, but with a mustache and wearing a black leather coat walks up to everyone and says: "your pay-pers pleese!"

Two words. (5, Insightful)

cduffy (652) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686113)

"internal passport".

Okay, maybe that's not what they're doing *quite* yet... but if I've ever seen a slippery slope, that's where this one's heading to.

Re:Two words. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686168)

The "slippery slope" argument is generally considered a logical fallacy.
You can take most proposed changes and show how they could lead to some horrible end, but most of the time its really not the case. Describing a situation like you did without any sort of explanation is vague and inaccurate. Statements like that serve only to strike terror in the hearts of the uninformed.

Re:Two words. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686218)

Bravo!

Also note that he's saying we're "heading for a slippery slope" and not that we're on one, which is even more meaningless.

Re:Two words. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686295)

A slippery slope is indeed a logical fallacy, but dismissing an entire argument based on its presentation, instead of its merit, is idiocy.

Let me spell this out for you: Travel ID cards will restrict your ability to travel within the United States. This isn't a slippery slope because that what they are DESIGNED TO DO. They aren't made so that a state can count how many American tourists it gets each year; they aren't so that the government can determine the number of air travelers. They are expressly designed for the very thing we are afraid of.

It isn't a fall down a slope that is troublesome - it is because it is happening right now. You don't need to invoke "what if..." because the things that are going on at this very moment are reason enough to get inflamed.

I know it's an unpopular opinion... (0, Interesting)

httpamphibio.us (579491) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686126)

But really... if you aren't doing anything extremely wrong you've got nothing to hide. I know the idea is that the more power you give the government the more it will abuse that power, but honestly, nobody cares about going 5 miles over the speed limit, your saturday night poker game, or equivilant crimes and nobody ever will.

If I can carry a piece of plastic with me that will help stop thousands of terrorism related deaths a year I'm all for that.

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686171)

Please provide me with you home address so I can search it. After all, "you've got nothing to hide."
So what would be the harm?

Should I be expected to make my affairs public? (5, Insightful)

neurostar (578917) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686187)

if you aren't doing anything extremely wrong you've got nothing to hide.

Such as finances, credit, family problems, etc? I have not committed crimes, and I don't ever want to have an ID system that can provide a ton of information about me. I do have something to hide - my personal life, because my life is my business, not Uncle Sam's.

If I can carry a piece of plastic with me that will help stop thousands of terrorism related deaths a year I'm all for that.

I have yet to hear an argument of how national IDs would stop terrorists. Another poster pointed out [slashdot.org] that the 9/11 hijackers did nothing that could have been prevented with the existence of a national ID. I fail to see how such and ID could help anything.

neurostar

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (2, Insightful)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686198)

But really... if you aren't doing anything extremely wrong you've got nothing to hide.

Who gets to decide what's wrong here? The State, of course. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you, you slavish lapdog.

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686339)

You mean the state in which people have a say in who comprises the state?

Jesus Christ, wake up and stop seeing the evil hand of big brother everywhere. You need to really think about controling your imagination.

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (2)

rossz (67331) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686232)

If I can carry a piece of plastic with me that will help stop thousands of terrorism related deaths a year I'm all for that.
So am I, but until they create a "terrorist detector" the size of a credit card this isn't possible. Shifting the blame to the common person isn't going to stop terrorism. The government had more than enough information to detain the 9/11 terrorists, but did nothing. Now they are using it as an excuse to piss all over the Constitution. I won't stand for that. This country IS the Constitution. Without it, we are no better than some piss-ant third world country run by a despot with a funny hat.

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (1)

saskboy (600063) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686249)

My biggest problem with this is that it doesn't account for people who are stupid, or disabled, or have poor social skills. This kind of program allows the government to single out a person and harm them simply because they didn't have a pocket on their clothing, or were robbed of their wallet, or are unable to communicate with a police officer.
How could nudists carry a card like this with them? Won't someone please think of the nudists! And of course the next logical step is to integrate this into smart cards with all our other plastic, and then when carrying that one card becomes a chore, we can just implant a chip and be done with it [or tape it to our skin like a nicotine patch of sorts].
People who want to live our their lives and not bother anyone shouldn't be bothered in return. Bothering those kind of people leads to people who want to be left alone, but because you made em mad, they's gonna shoot ya!

Nothing to hide? (3, Insightful)

uglyMood (322284) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686268)

Your ignorance of recent American history is astonishing. Ask the victims of COINTELPRO whether they had anything to hide or not. What are you going to do if what you've done wrong is merely disagree with the government's abridgement of your civil rights as guaranteed under the Constitution? It's happened before, right here in the US of A. Did you know the Bush administration is floating the idea of an internal spy agency [yahoo.com] ? Read your history, people. We are in bad trouble.

Its called "presumption of innocence" (5, Insightful)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686281)

The cornerstone of our loegal code and our constitution is that you do not have to demonstrate to the government that you are innocent of crimes. I'm not saying that the presumption of innocence precludes government IDs, but it does mean that law abiding citizens should not have to carry a piece of paper to prove they are law abiding.

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (2)

Casca (4032) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686283)

Yeah, me too. I wish they would just pass a law that requires everyone get a little chip implanted in them that records heart rate, respiration, checks for illegal substances in the blood stream, and reports all this back with the wearers gps location via satellite link. Oh, and when they put the chip in they could take a dna sample to have on file just in case. No more unknown criminals, and we would all be a lot safer because the authorities could find us at any time in the event of an emergency.

Who wouldn't want something like that? I mean, if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about. Only criminals would protest something like that.

That is NOT an excuse to be frisked. (4, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686312)

If you are doing nothing wrong, and have nothing to hide, then *no one*, ESPECIALLY the government, should be asking.

*Only* if there is cause for suspicion should anyone ever be questioned, period. Even then, that's often just a flimsy excuse.

That is the basis of a free society. Once *innocent* people are subjected to this on a regular basis.. then society is no longer free.

And once the populace accepts this sort of 'presumed guilty' treatment, then its all over.

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686327)

Matt Russell
818 Indian Terrace
Bellingham
Washington
98225
United States
US
+1.3602235782
matt@amphibious.net

Is there anything else you'd like to tell us?

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (3, Informative)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686330)

Well, here's [salon.com] the counterpoint to the "innoshent hash noshing to hidesh" argument. For those who aren't registed, the article:
  • Reports the existance of a list of about 1,000 travellers who are to be singled out for "special treatment" by airline security
  • That so far the evidence is that people who are being singled out are simply those in high profile positions in non-mainstream politics. Examples include prominent members of groups like Amnesty International.
  • Abuses have included "suspects" having to drop their pants in full view of the other passengers, and one individual, an advisor to Ralph Nader's election compaign, being interogated for several hours - long enough to be forced to miss his flight - for calling President Bush "as dumb as a rock" while waiting in line.
When our governments can be trusted to fight terrorism rather than dissent, the innocent may have less reason to hide. But not before.

Not illegal, but embarassing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686346)

You're saying that if you are a suspect you must be guilty. I spit on your national ID.
What about those types of activities? Bizarre but harmless sexual orientation, pulling a fast one on your spouse or SO, the list could conceivably go on and on. Concentrated surveillance on citizens of any nation by its government is a bad idea.
It's also only speculation that it would prevent terrorist attacks, there's plenty of data that suggests that our intelligence knew that public air carriers were being considered as weapons, that the WTC was a target, even some that suggests that it was allowed to be carried out to further the goals of the administration. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if I was...

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (3, Insightful)

Anarchofascist (4820) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686356)

"But really... if you aren't doing anything extremely wrong you've got nothing to hide. I know the idea is that the more power you give the government the more it will abuse that power, but honestly, nobody cares about going 5 miles over the speed limit, your saturday night poker game, or equivilant crimes and nobody ever will."

Please reply to this message with your full name, qualifications, home and office address, home and office phone number and social security number and I'll mod you up as "Insightful".

National ID cards chill organised opposition government policy. That's what they're for. Who says the US hasn't learned anything from Vietnam?

Re:I know it's an unpopular opinion... (1)

/dev/trash (182850) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686371)

but honestly, nobody cares about going 5 miles over the speed limit, your saturday night poker game, or equivilant crimes and nobody ever will.

Ask people in NYC how they felt when Guiliani started to prosecute petty crimes.

The problem is how they fail (5, Insightful)

redfiche (621966) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686127)

As with any security system, there will be certain limitations of freedom. That is the price of safety.

The problem that needs to be addressed is how will the system fail? What safegaurds will be in place to protect you if your card is lost or stolen? What recourse will you have to remove false information about you from the databases? What are the ramifications of someone successfully couterfeiting one of these cards?

I don't think the idea of a national ID card/database is inherently bad, but there are a number of question that need to be addressed to make sure the system's cost in loss of freedom does not outweigh its benefit.

Privacy? (3)

foxxo (262627) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686132)

I'm not trolling, but could someone please tell me what the "privacy concerns" surrounding this are? I checked out all three of the links included in the post about why ID's are so "bad," but the closest thing I got to an explanation was having catch-phrases like "internal passport" thrown at me. I really do want to know what's got everyone's panties in a bunch. Please reply.

this is not an ID for everyone (5, Informative)

Slashdotess (605550) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686133)

Reading the story you find out this is not a national ID system.
TSA has made important progress in selecting a uniform system of identification, a card-based biometric information system, that will support positive identification of individuals working in the transportation sector and encompassing the aviation, train, shipping, and trucking industries.
This system is not for you, the everyday individual. This is for making sure people like stewards on airlines don't have to go through security checks everyday to see if they're carrying a bomb. Using new authentication technology that's been discussed on /. already (ie: retinal scanning) they can pass these people by so they can do their jobs quickly, rather than waiting in a security line everyday just to go to work. We do that enough on city "expressways" already..

Re:this is not an ID for everyone (2)

bobv-pillars-net (97943) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686167)

Yup, it's covered under the interstate commerce clause.

Just like drivers licensing.

So it doesn't affect us "everyday individuals" who don't have any reason (or ability) to engage in interstate commerce.

(Too bad I gotta buy and sell to eat; guess I'll have to take the mark after all...

So... airplane pilots can't be terrorists? (5, Insightful)

Ghoser777 (113623) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686186)

Because, you know, we haven't ever had a FBI agent who sold US intelligence to other countries. I mean, we know they're good Americans so they would never sell out America.

Oh, wait a minute [cnn.com] .

F-bacher

Re:So... airplane pilots can't be terrorists? (2, Informative)

bstadil (7110) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686286)

Better example might be EgyptAir Flight 990 [kuro5hin.org]

The suicide theory counter argument by the Muslim press is that a Muslim would never commit suicide as it's against their religion.

Maybe this argument has lost a bit of weight lately.

Re:this is not an ID for everyone (1)

nanoakron (234907) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686363)

Isn't that just inherantly MORE dangerous. You're instantly creating a 'trusted class' of people with access to very sensitive and powerful positions.

As stated by many a philosopher, and repeatedly proven in everyday life - an idea may be intellectually valid, but people are ultimately corruptable and untrustworthy.

The second we stop paying attention or become complacent is when something VERY BAD can happen, and this system invites such complacency.

-Nano.

Hi Friends (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686146)

My nickname is Kyle. I oper on irc.webchat.org, and as my friends scottk and kc have posted in the past, we are looking for some new boys to join us in playing games. Come visit me on #spiderslair, ask how you can help play our man on man games (if you know what i mean!) and we will get you started right away.

Again, im kyle kyle@webchat.org
and we hope to see you there.

irc.webchat.org 6667 #spiderslair
kc, scottk, kyle.. the closest men on webnet!

The whole "registerd traveler" idea is absurd (5, Insightful)

rebbie (165490) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686147)

What is to prevent a "registered traveler" from doing something nefarious? Nothing! None of the 9/11 band of bad guys hid their identities. They didn't have to or want to. They (at least the leaders) wanted to die and to let everyone know who did what. Besides, their MO -- planes as missiles -- will probably not work anymore on commercial jets.

While the TSA scrambles to secure airports terrorists will likely just find another way to accomplish their goals while the rest of us stand in a "security" line designed to make us feel safer.

Does anyone else remember the bogus Pan Am security screening fee from years back? They didn't actually do extra screening but the impression of doing more made the passengers feel better...

Re:The whole "registerd traveler" idea is absurd (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686264)

What is to prevent a "registered traveler" from doing something nefarious?

Fear of jail, fear of the death penalty, fear of hell, morality, social status. Not wanting to lose their wife, their husband, their children, their house, their car, their dog, their cat, etc.

Re:The whole "registerd traveler" idea is absurd (2)

Steve B (42864) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686377)

Fear of jail, fear of the death penalty, fear of hell, morality, social status. Not wanting to lose their wife, their husband, their children, their house, their car, their dog, their cat, etc.

All of which are obviously not applicable to the sort of people who create this particular threat.

Re:The whole "registerd traveler" idea is absurd (3, Interesting)

Scratch-O-Matic (245992) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686273)

None of the 9/11 band of bad guys hid their identities.

That's because they knew they didn't have to choose between a security-related identification card or extra scrutiny at the gate.

People don't seem to understand, or they aren't willing to accept, that security and safety are games of hedging and probability. To use a tired old analogy, it's like locking your front door. Will that stop a determined criminal? No, but it will a) make your house a less attractive target, and b) force bad guys to look for other ways in. The big-picture goal behind any given measure is not to ensure absolute prevention, it's to force bad guys to work harder, and to influence the direction of their attempts to circumvent your defenses.

For Transportation Employees (4, Insightful)

Lethyos (408045) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686152)

The idea is to positively ID people working in the transporation business.

TSA has made important progress in selecting a uniform system of identification, a card-based biometric information system, that will support positive identification of individuals working in the transportation sector and encompassing the aviation, train, shipping, and trucking industries.

This is bad for several reasons. First, it won't solve anything. All it will do is further infringe upon the privacy of people working in this sector. The terrorists did not strike at us by impersonating workers, but just regular travellers.

It also won't do any good if/when it's used on people just going from place to place. Once again, the terrorists did not forge any identification. They didn't have to. Replacing one form of ID with another in this case is just stupid.

Nonsense like this is just bringing us closer to a locked down state where you must have your papers in order to go anywhere. And to think, at one point, this nation mocked the Russians for this kind of crap.

New Agency Name (5, Funny)

SloWave (52801) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686155)

George's Electronic Security, Transportation, And Papers Organization

Ligitimate Fraud (3, Interesting)

zulux (112259) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686158)

Personally I don't see what the big deal is if this is combined with some consumer protection:

United airlines has a right to demand that I provide proof of who I am, if it's a condition of them doing business with me. Just like I have the right to demand that United's pilots wear a pigmy white tailed monkey on their heads if it a condition of me flying with them. If either one of us doesen't like the demands that the other is making, then fine. We just won't do business with each other.

Now if United started babbing about my travel details, then I'd be rightfully pissed.

I fell asleep trying to read that speach (1)

A55M0NKEY (554964) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686159)

Very longwinded Very boring. Only such rambling could hide something like an ID card initiative. I couldn't find the initiative in the somnulence that was that speech .. My endurance was just not powerful enough to see through the fog..

Read The Article (5, Informative)

Hrunting (2191) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686161)

They're not talking about a national ID card system.

The page (which is a poor one, since it's really just an agenda for presentations) covers two topics. One is an ID system for transportation workers, so that they have some way of verifying that the guy in the tarmac in a blue jumpsuit really is an employee who is allowed to be there. That is arguably a good thing. Many professions have this. I go to a hospital and my doctor is wearing an ID badge, and that makes me feel good, because if I trust the badge, I'm reasonably assured that this main isn't some psycho pretending to be a doctor. The TSA is looking at a way to unify the many different systems under one, so that rather than having 50 different types of identification depending on where you go, everyone will have the same types of ID. They're not implementing a new system. They're making an existing one more standardized.

The second is the Registered Traveler ID. This system is a voluntary system for frequent flyers to bypass the tedious and sometimes invasive security procedures at airports and train stations. Basically, you go through the background checks, etc. once, and then you can skip all the feel-down lines and breeze your way to the gate. Basically, they want to make it easier for people to travel. If you, as a citizen, don't want to be registered, don't get the card. You can go through the long lines with other unregistered travelers and your "privacy" (or the illusion of it) is safe.

Re:Read The Article (3, Insightful)

DrewK (44568) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686325)

So then, register in the system. Take some un-eventful trips then pack the samsonite with semtex? Past behavior and plastic cards are no insurance against future actions. Remember most of the 9/11 hijackers had valid ID.
Besides while the US may not have a National ID, it does have a unique identifier for everyone, the SSN#, and each State does require an ID that must be presented to law enforcement on demand or to receive any services from that state. National ID in the US would be redundant.

Boy this sounds fun .. (5, Insightful)

SuperDuG (134989) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686162)

Let's just take it a step further, take everyone that doesn't look "american" tatoo them and put them in a holding camp. We can go ahead and "purify" the whole country.

Hey pompus "security and safety conscious" jerks, unless you are a Native American, then someone up your family tree came over on a boat/plane too. It is true, some people from other countries do actually like to visit america, and they're not here to hurt us, though I'm sure there is a little poking fun at our "traditional ways".

get some culture...

Re:Boy this sounds fun .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686361)

..And likely, the native americans came over a long time ago, via the land bridge that connects Alaska and Siberia every so often.

INS failures (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686164)

The 19 terrorists that caused the September 11th debacle were already suspected by our government.

Some of them were even pulled over by police and let go not long before 9/11.

Perhaps, instead of restricting the freedoms of CITIZENS, the INS should get off their butts and start tracking down and deporting those that are here illegally.

Rather than inventing an entire new set of draconian information gathering systems, they should just ENFORCE THE CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS!!!!!!!

Political correctness and globalism will be the death of American freedoms and privacy.

Ok, flame me now, please.

My name is Randy, and I'm a citizen and patriot.

No Papers? (4, Interesting)

MyHair (589485) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686175)

I read the links but found no concrete information on what this is about, but "Registered Traveler ID Initiative" sounds very disconcerting.

I just watched "The Hunt for Red October" again last week. There's a scene where the would-be Soviet defector sub Captain (Sean Connery) and First Officer (Sam Niel) are discussing what they'll do in America. The first officer would like to live in Montana but says something like "I might buy a recreational vehicle and travel from state to state...they let you do that? No papers?" Captain: "No papers."

Re:No Papers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686253)

Well... in Russia and other countries there do exist (or at least it did some time ago, I cannot be sure it is still in use) internal passports. That meant that, even if the country is one, to travel between provinces you need a passport in order to do that. I think in Russia was set for avoiding people in isolated places like Siberia from migrating into cities (that bureacratic mentality). In Spain, after the Civil War, it was a way to track down people and detect them if they were going to/from the frontier (emigrees, resistants, etc...)

It isn't the government's business (1)

grahamkg (5290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686176)

...to patrol who goes on aircraft. It is the airlines' business. Period. The only legitimate purpose of government wrt the air transportation system is to ensure crimes against person and/or property are either not committed, or are prosecuted after they are committed.


If an airline wishes to offer me some quick pass ID so I don't need to mess with security and get molested every time I board an aircraft, I'd be inclined to accept. If the government offers me a quick pass ID to do same, I'm very concerned, as they have no bloody right to tell me whether I can board a plane or not.

While this may be true (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686190)

it is also true that too [slashdot.org] many [amazon.com] links [goatse.cx] makes [disinfo.com] text [slashduh.org] unreadable [theonion.com] .

How Many ID Cards? (4, Insightful)

alexander.morgan (317764) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686194)

The question for Americans isn't if an ID card is a good idea, the question is how many ID cards everybody should have and what the "good" guys do with all the data they collect. Let's see: driver license, social security card, credit card, library card, student ID, etc...

Then the whole thing is neatly organized in commercial and government databases. All that supplemented by the nefarious census database. What else could the government possibly want to know about you, except perhaps your color preference?

ID cards are a fact of modern life; all of us already have half a dozen of them--unless you live you life as a hermit, or your one of the bad guys.

The real issue is controlling what the government and commercial entities do with all the data they collect. And in the U.S. it's pretty much anything goes. They even let convicted criminals like Poindexter play with all those databases; a guy who has already demonstrated a complete disregard for U.S. laws restricting what the government can do. Then again, he's proven himself trustworthy to his superiors, which is obviously more important.

I don't think the government wants ID cards any more than the people, because with an ID card, there'd be laws that restrict access to the information. Right now, all that information is available in a free for all--free as in access, not beer ;).

Indian Jones ... and Dogma ... (2)

SuperDuG (134989) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686195)

Don't forget the Harrison Ford tossin a Nazi out of the blimp with the phrase ... "No papers" ...

OR

Kevin Smith tossin Matt Daemon out of the train, lighting up a cigarette ... with a remake phrase of "no papers" ...

For safety sake, say no to safety!!

Baby steps towards 1984 (1)

Slaveway (562761) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686203)

Maybe it's just me. Are we moving towards that Orwellian view of the future???
Sacraficing freedom for percieved safety.

Bad Communist Movies (1)

Pyrosophy (259529) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686206)

Well it looks like it won't be long before America finally becomes one of those countries where you hear those words that every freedom-loving person has been trained to despise:

"May I see your papers [please]?"

Implants / invisible barcodes (4, Insightful)

Sean Clifford (322444) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686213)

<sarcasm>
ID cards can be lost or stolen. Iris scanners take too bloody long (>10-15 seconds staring into one) and watching to see whether someone's going to grab an ID or a gun is tiresome.

Why not implant a chip in the forehead of everyone? A little stick and *bam* you're done. Serial number of chip keyed to your DNA/fingerprints/ass prints. Or you can simply use a barcode tatooed on the back of a hand in invisible ink that shows up under UV. A simple *bleep* with a barcode scanner and you've identified Citizen X or Criminal Y.
</sarcasm>

That isnt sarcasm, its the future (2)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686351)

This is what the ultimate goal is, at least until they can scan DNA in real time, from a resonable distance.. then 'tagging' will be moot.

Twas sarcasm (2)

Sean Clifford (322444) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686370)

Twas sarcasm, as I was promoting it as a good idea(TM) & making a religious reference that was probably a little too mundane now that I think on it.

Immigrants already scanned and tracked (2)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686215)

Anyone who has obtained a green card in the last couple of years has had their fingerprints digitally scanned and cataloged. Ultimately this will be applied to citizens as well. Its sad but seems inevitable - I don't see anyone in a decision-making capacity voicing strong opposition.

Railroad ID Cards (5, Informative)

bmcphall (560577) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686243)

I work for a nationally known freight railroad. Not too much has been done after 9/11. Only the checkpoints that the truck drivers have to pass through, will not let anybody but trucks and higher-ups (trainmaster, hub manager, etc) that need to go through. Plus we got a new set of rules for dealing with the HAZ MAT.

I really don't see how it would help the railroads out. In the yards, you are using the radio consantly. You would know when a person that isn't supposed to be there is messing around. When you work the road (main line), you have to get a form of permission from the dispatcher (Track Warrent, Verbal Permission, etc), know how to read/use the form of permission. Also, people consantly talk to each other, and know who is assigned to the train ahead and behind them.

A lot of our trains run at 70 mph. Few trains that don't. Dead frieght (manifest, or boxcars and the like), Key trains, (loaded with HAZ MAT, or "bombs"), or any car that is not able or designed to travel at that speed. I can not see stopping a 70mph high priority intermodal train just to see id's!

Why? (1)

merky1 (83978) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686245)

What is the fascination with ID? Every time I fly, I wonder how much time / money is wasted having redundant ID checks. It's not like there are special stickers on Terrorists ID cards.

I guess this is just further proof in how little our rulers... err... elected officials represent the common good.

ID cards won't kill you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686262)

ID cards have their uses, and they do not (at least not in the form they are used in Germany) promote any discrimination. The FAQ linked to does not, in my opinion, give a reasonable arguments against them - the information on a German ID card includes name, date of birth, address, eye color, signature and issueing authority. How can this data be used to discriminate someone?
Besides, everybody in the US already "has his number" - the SSN. I'd just incorporate that one and along the way issue every citizen a state certified digital key - that would be a great way to limit online fraud and promote encryption.

Registered Traveler ID? (1)

Yo Grark (465041) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686263)

I thought we already had one. Proven to be flawless, secure, accepted in more countries than mastercard and visa combined, built on solid code, and cross-platform compliant. I just don't know why anyone would need a Registered Traveler ID when they already have a Microsoft Passport... :P Yo Grark - Canadian Bred, with American Buttering.

Do you have your papers commrade? (2)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686272)

Next it will be random ( or total ) searches of private citizens on the street and in their private vehicles..

I am proud of my country... but things like this make me wonder if im blind. No im not in reality i SEE what is happening.. but powerless to stop it alone.. we need to band together.

The next US terrorist attack will not use aircraft (4, Insightful)

Animats (122034) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686274)

The homeland security people are fighting the last war, not the next one. Classic military mistake. The next big attack will be elsewhere. With all this new emphasis on transportation security, an intelligent opposition will attack somewhere else.

The need is not to make transportation safe against terrorism. The need is to find all the places where a terrorist act could kill thousands of people and work to harden up such targets. Utility infrastructure, nuclear plants, chemical facilities, and related operations need tighter security. That will save more lives than IDing travellers.

Who cares? (2)

drunkmonk (241978) | more than 11 years ago | (#4686310)

If you think that all of the information that would be included on any sort of national ID isn't already easily avaiable, you're ignorant, stupid or both.

Besides, do you really think that the US government needs to issue you a card before they can invade your privacy and track your movements? It's the government, for God sakes!

If you're really cynical, ID cards might even be a good thing. If it makes it easier for the government to invade your privacy (remembering that they can do it at will already), than at least it'll be cheaper! You've already lost all semblence of privacy, at least you can get it at a discount.

Maybe that's how the Republicans plan to cut taxes... :)

IDs for everyone. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4686320)

I'm from Spain, and I want to share a more "European" ( UK doesn't count :-P ) point of view.

I'll asume that the fact that having an ID is not bad by itself (okay, the number of the beast and that all :-P) but its use. But even in US, IDs are widely used (to buy beer, to sign contracts). The trouble is that these IDs don't come with citizenship, but for other reasons... why do I need to learn to drive, or to get registered in Social Security, just to justify to the clerk that I can buy beer? If I went to a library at 15, how could I use a drivers license or Social Security number to get to borrow a book, if I couldn't have neither of them?

Also, there is the paranoia about people targetting you by your ID. In Spain, the National ID systems only is a way to certify that you are who you say you are. And no, once my clerk has checked that I'm old enough, he/she doesn't write my ID number into a computer terminal so the government can know what kind of beer I'm buying. And when I borrow a book from the library, the data about it is kept internally just in case I delay in returning it. I'm pretty sure my government doesn't record what videos do I rent, or that they are not searching for my fines, etc., etc. And don't worry, if they are really interested in that data, they can just get it from Social Security

Another issue is verification.... 50 states, 50 driver license ID (and other types or IDs)... for people trying to falsify one or to cheat cops, there is a wide range for it, isn't it? Are your cops so well trained that any cop at Florida can check the validity of an Alaskian ID without trouble?

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