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SiS Releases 0.13-micron Xabre600 GPU

Hemos posted more than 11 years ago | from the making-it-tiny dept.

Hardware 111

EconolineCrush writes "NVIDIA may be struggling to bring the GeForce FX to market on a 0.13-micron manufacturing processes, but it looks like SiS has beat them to the punch. Tech Report has a review of the new Xaber600, which is the first mainstream GPU that I know of to be manufactured using 0.13-micron process technology. The Xabre600's performance isn't overly impressive, even when compared to a low-end Radeon 9000 Pro, but it's nice to see SiS one-upping the graphics giants when it comes to process technology."

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Look at me! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758204)

I'm teh Frist Proster!

REAL DEAL LInux Review (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758206)

I'm sure many of you have experienced breaches of your computer's security in the past. Yes, we've all been there, re-formatting from the boot disk and losing the contents of your A: drive. Well an exciting, new, innovative project from the up-and-coming young company 'Open-Source' promises to change all this!

Linux is causing a big stir on the Internet culture. This is mainly due to its direct opposition to Microsoft's Windows98, who has in the past have been accused of monopolising the computer market by using "insider tactics" with companies such as Gateway and AMD. Make no mistake; you do not need to buy a new computer to install this software because Linux will, quite remarkably, run on a Windows formatted machine! Many critics and computer "wiz-kids" are still not exactly sure how this works, however the company behind the magic, Open-Source Development Inc., have declined to reveal what exactly makes Linux so successful in utilizing Windows machines.

Now I know exactly what you're thinking; you've probably heard all the hype up to this point about Linux and the question you want answered is, "does it perform?" Sadly the answer is no. It can be considered as the smaller, less successful recluse brother of WindowsME. This is not unjust and without reason, as there are far too many downfalls to Linux for it to be considered a serious contender for the most commonly accepted operating systems. An example of one of the most harrowing being the inclusion of 'fsck' in the final retail release of Linux. This basically causes major conflict issues with the file system upon improper system shutdown. I found it was myself shouting 'FSCK!' at 2 am in the morning while kicking my Linux box over, only to reboot in Windows and use Scandisk to retain my file structure and system performance.

Please don't think I have a dependency on Windows, because that is absolutely not the case. The CLI (or command-line interface for you less technical people) of Linux is where many people consider Linux to pick up pace and become a serious contender. Yes, some people would actually rather type in commands than simply point and click! Since 'point and click' technology has been developed there is no longer any need for the use of long commands... or so it would seem. But Linux ignores these developments and seemingly takes a step backwards. When compared to Windows98 or WindowsME which has a DOS command line and very advanced point and click interface, you can see where Linux obviously begins to lose ground.

I'm not even sure if I really want to begin on the compatibility issues Linux has. Absolutely none of the programs I had immediately available to me would function at all in Linux. Many of these programs are vital to my work, such as Photoshop and Dreamweaver. These programs are two of the biggest commercial IT products, and Linux not supporting them is absolutely absurd. This was obvious not considered by Open-Source Inc. when they were developing Linux. The advantages I found while using Linux are sparse to say the least, it did only crash a few times during the testing period... but this is really irrelevant when you consider there is actually nothing you can do with Linux that is any more advanced than Windows98 or WindowsME.

If you have adequately read this review you will be aware of the huge holes I have ripped in Linux' accessibility and ability to operate as a standard operating system. Linux is probably available at your local IT store, however I would strongly recommend you consider WindowsME your primary choice.

www.somethingawful.com

fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758213)

suckas

Oh great (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758216)

another video chipset that won't have Linux support

Are there linux drivers (3, Insightful)

cbcbcb (567490) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758223)

Do SiS still support the DRI project [sf.net] ?

Re:Are there linux drivers (5, Informative)

Master Bait (115103) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758701)

No support. No how, no way. They won't even release any documentation. Don't waste your money on a Xabre.

Re:Are there linux drivers (2)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759365)

Yeah, hes right, besides, this card will be about $80-$90, and it's performance is very mediocore. You can get a Radeon 8500 on pricewatch for like $83, and it'll easily outperform this xabre junk, and they have ATI drivers (closed source), and DRI open source drivers, because ATI releases specs to some people.

Re:Are there linux drivers (2, Informative)

gukin (14148) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759173)

SIS is not a linux friendly vendor (especially compared to NVIDIA and ATI.) SIS is loath to build its own drivers and is also stingy on providing specification to open source developers. For more information about SIS video and linux see this page http://www.winischhofer.net

clicky clicky (was Re:Are there linux drivers) (1)

CoolVibe (11466) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759321)

Learn to love the clickable link [winischhofer.net] . Is it that hard to make links clickable?

Re:Are there linux drivers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4763138)

SiS is pretty bad at their Windows drivers too. Just ask anyone who just wants to use the SiS530 or 540 onboard video that shipped on so many motherboards a couple of years ago. DirectX 8 and higher kills it. SiS acknowledged the problem on their site and blew everyone off. They've already taken the acknowledgement down from their site, and all you can find there is the most recent - incompatible - driver. Machines with this chipset didn't include AGP slots, so that means if you have one of these motheroards and want to play a game that requires DirectX 8 or higher, you have to overpay for a PCI card.

Picked up a Xabre 400 (0, Troll)

Profane Motherfucker (564659) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758239)

The fucker was really cheap. Sub $100. It's got a few flaws, but you don't pay the Ass Rape premium on the SiS cards as you do on nVidia cards. I'm getting about 6800 in 3DMark2001. Bang for buck the thing is pretty good.

They get the Profane Fucking Seal of Approval.

Re:Picked up a Xabre 400 (1)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758301)

Is there a benchmark you can use that is OpenGL-based? 3DMark2001 seems to use DirectX.

Re:Picked up a Xabre 400 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758753)

You could try DroneZmarK - it is openGL based.

http://www.multiplayer.it/dronez/english/m_ftp.a sp

Re:Picked up a Xabre 400 (1)

Wiz (6870) | more than 11 years ago | (#4761822)

Yeah, you could try Vulpine GLMark - it seems to be ok for this sort of thing. Link!! [vulpine.de] Having said that, it seems down currently as I can't get to it (argh, pre-slashdot effect? ;-) ). Give it a try anyway!

Re:Picked up a Xabre 400 (1)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 11 years ago | (#4763666)

Next question: is there a 3d benchmark which is free software?

profanity (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758434)


Profanity is merely the verbal crutch for the goddamn motherfucking inarticulate.

Re:profanity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758442)

Bullshit.

i disagree (1)

tusixoh (561920) | more than 11 years ago | (#4760645)

Profanity makes talking fun..

Re:Picked up a Xabre 400 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758452)

Ya .... but when you can get a new ATI Radeon 9000pro with all the features of the newer vid cards (basically radeon 8500 with the features of the 9700) for $99, that card kinda sucks!

Re:Picked up a Xabre 400 (1)

Profane Motherfucker (564659) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758801)

Agreed. And I do like those ATI cards.

Retro upgrades (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758243)

In the same spirit as the transitioning of the underperforming Xabre chip to 0.13u, I would also like to announce that I am beginning work on a 0.13u port of the Riva128, ATI Rage Pro, and the timeless Trident ViRGE. These chips will still perform like 3 legged dogs, but the fact that they are on a 0.13u process seems to be newsworthy these days.

Taking orders now!!!

Re:Retro upgrades (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758263)

You will also notice that due to a typo, I am also combining (at no extra cost!!) the Trident CyberBlade core with the S3 ViRGE core on a 0.13u process. The most attractive features however, such as shithouse performance and total lack of DirectX 8 compliance will still remain.

Viva la 0.13u crap video chips!!!

Re:Retro upgrades (3, Insightful)

archeopterix (594938) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758273)

In the same spirit as the transitioning of the underperforming Xabre chip to 0.13u, I would also like to announce that I am beginning work on a 0.13u port of the Riva128, ATI Rage Pro, and the timeless Trident ViRGE. These chips will still perform like 3 legged dogs, but the fact that they are on a 0.13u process seems to be newsworthy these days.
Actually, I'd buy and old underperforming chip in 0.13u technology if it lets me get rid of the noisy fan.

Re:Retro upgrades (1)

CrazyDuke (529195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758343)

Heh, my Geforce 2 mx runs fine with a 486 heatsink minus the fan stuck to it. Just don't try to overclock it.

Re:Retro upgrades (1)

Moloch666 (574889) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759064)

My Geforce2 mx came with only a heatsink. It's a cool looking blue heatsink and can be overclocked a bit.

Re:Retro upgrades (1)

mandolin (7248) | more than 11 years ago | (#4762601)

I'd buy and old underperforming chip in 0.13u technology if it lets me get rid of the noisy fan.

I've seen cards with the three older chipsets mentioned; none of them, as I recall, had or needed a fan. Which isn't to say you could only buy fanless configurations.

If "doesn't need a fan" is your buying metric, a Matrox g450 or g550 would probably suit you (disclaimer: I own a g200, which is also fanless).

Now what's the best desktop (x86) *processor* I could get that doesn't need its own fan?

Re:Retro upgrades (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758416)

hey tard troll..... it's a S3 virge... trident never made a card wirth a damn. the S3 virge is still a kick arse card for what it is/was... hell it's one of the only ones that is guarenteed to work well as the second card in a multimon config.

Re:Retro upgrades (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758492)

hey tard troll..... it's a S3 virge..

read the post after the first one, tard.

the S3 ViRGE was only notable for being the world's first 3D decelerator...its fucking faster for the CPU to do the work than for the video chip. nevertheless, my 0.13u port will still continue, since there is obviously a market amongst the graphics elite such as yourself.

Ummm (5, Insightful)

Clue4All (580842) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758249)

I'm really confused by this article.

NVIDIA may be struggling to bring the GeForce FX to market on a 0.13-mircon manufacturing processes, but it looks like SiS has beat them to the punch. Tech Report has a review of the new Xaber600, which is the first mainstream GPU that I know of to be manufactured using 0.13-micron process technology.

nVidia's GeForce FX is already in production.

The Xabre600's performance isn't overly impressive, even when compared to a low-end Radeon 9000 Pro, but it's nice to see SiS one-upping the graphics giants when it comes to process technology.

Okay, if it's not that great, and nVidia is already producing theirs, how exactly are they beating them to the punch? It's nice to see another article on the 0.13-micron process, but I really have no idea what your point is supposed to be.

Re:Ummm (3, Insightful)

C_To (628122) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758280)

Its stating that although the Nvidia GeForce FX is in production, we will most likely not see any version of the card avaliable to consumers until Mid-January to Feburary.

I agree, who cares about the process, but its nice to see an alternative video card that may have some performance for a decent price compared to ATI and Nvidia (who also make quality cards). Sounds like something OEM's might use on some machines for its price.

Re:Ummm (1)

Oo.et.oO (6530) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758332)

all it means is that they happened to get their GDS to TSMC or whomever sooner. and by the limited performance of said design, that doesn't seem too difficult.

Re:Ummm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758408)

nVidia's GeForce FX is already in production.

Already being 4 months later than promised.

Okay, if it's not that great, and nVidia is already producing theirs, how exactly are they beating them to the punch?

Nv30 will be out for Consumers January to February. Xabre 800 should be available to buy before Christmas.

Re:Ummm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758419)

Forgot to put it in the last one. READ THE WHOLE FUCKIN ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING. If said article is 1 page, read more than the headline and 1st paragraph. Thats is all

The Xabre is already on the market (2)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758502)

Nuff said. If they're on the market now, they beat nVidia.

Re:The Xabre is already on the market (2)

Phosphor3k (542747) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758757)

They are both vapor at this point. I cant find a Xabre online anywhere. The GeforceFX isnt going to be released until at least january. Besides, why does it matter, AMD and Intel have been running on .13 for months.

Re:Ummm (1)

patter (128866) | more than 11 years ago | (#4760314)

Ok, so it can't even out-perform low end Radeon boards, and they're 'one upping' and beating someone to the punch??

Ok, so now it's thin, but it still is a crappy product in general.. gg SiS.

Sorry, try building one that works properly with OpenGL (i.e. doesn't lock up while playing OpenGL games like about 70% of their boards do), or provide a Linux driver.. heck, then we'd have something to be impressed about.

Sorry, that is trollish, but I think they've got a long way to go to restore consumer confidence in a product that's been as bad as theirs for as long as it has.

A matter of time (3, Insightful)

GeckoFood (585211) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758255)

It is just a matter of time if the bottleneck is in the drivers. It would be great to see SiS get seriously competitive at the top end of the GPU battle and give both nVidia and ATI something about which to worry. If it's in the chip instead, though, all the driver tweaks in the world will not help it catch up.

Quickly supplying Linux drivers is a good move on their part, too. Wait too long, and they will cut themselves out of an important market. Windows ain't the only game in town anymore...

Good luck to SiS!!

Re:A matter of time (5, Insightful)

ceejayoz (567949) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758320)

Quickly supplying Linux drivers is a good move on their part, too. Wait too long, and they will cut themselves out of an important market. Windows ain't the only game in town anymore...

Sorry, but Windows might as well be the only game in town, at least for graphics cards. What's the main market for graphics cards? Gamers. How many new games come out for Linux? Very few.

Re:A matter of time (2)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758686)

older games don't need gfx cards?

the few new games that are coming to linux don't need gfx cards, the games that are available on linux don't need gfx cards?

if there is more than even 1 game there is market for card to play it with.

txt sucks seriously for movies.(yeh, mplayer aaout doesn't look that good). software scaling sucks seriously too.

windows is the _main_ player in game town but not the only one.

Re:A matter of time (5, Informative)

Patoski (121455) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758738)

Actually, its not as bleak as that. The push to get hardware accelerated drivers for Linux is gathering momentum thanks at least in part to the companies who create CGI for entertainment industry. This industry is an early adopter of Linux and is moving fairly aggressively to incorporate Linux into their organizations. This is why you see most of the professional 3D packages now with Linux versions of their products. Now, the same companies who buy these expensive modeling packages (like Maya which is $10,000) buy those *really* expensive professional level graphics cards. There are usually very large profit margins on these professional level cards so the video card manufacturers tend to bend over backwards to try and appease these customers, as the profit margin on the consumer side is wafer thin. This is one large reason why you're seeing more accelerated video card drivers for Linux pop up nowadays from the larger video card manufacturers. ATI just released their unified accelerated drivers for Linux and Nvidia has had drivers for Linux for quite a while. Heck, even my trusty little Kyro II card has had Linux drivers for quite some time. Things are looking up for Linux video drivers and its only going to get better as time goes on.

A new fabrication process = big whoop (4, Interesting)

larsoncc (461660) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758266)

I think I'll reserve my "dancing in the street" jubilation for when a .13 micron process starts benefitting the consumer.

Manufacturing processes change quite frequently. Although a .13 Micron process will mean that these companies will be able to yield more chips per wafer, the pricing model on high end graphics cards has remained static over the past few years.

When the top-of-the-line graphics card costs half of what it does today (heck, say... $150, instead of $300, or even $400), THEN that's cause to celebrate new manufacturing processes.

Until then, it's an incrimental improvement that's designed to maximize profit.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (4, Insightful)

archeopterix (594938) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758304)

Manufacturing processes change quite frequently. Although a .13 Micron process will mean that these companies will be able to yield more chips per wafer, the pricing model on high end graphics cards has remained static over the past few years.
What? I think that .13 micron isn't about more chips per wafer - in fact it yields probably less chips per wafer - the thinner your tracks are, the lower success rate. As far as I know it's all about power consumption and clock rate - the smaller your stuff, the less power needed and the faster it can run without overheating.

I believe you are wrong (3, Interesting)

John Harrison (223649) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758807)

Actually, the less area a chip takes up, the less likely it is to have a defect in it. It yields more chips per wafer because their are more chips on a wafer and each individual chip is less likely to have a defect.

Re:I believe you are wrong (2)

archeopterix (594938) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759067)

Actually, the less area a chip takes up, the less likely it is to have a defect in it. It yields more chips per wafer because their are more chips on a wafer and each individual chip is less likely to have a defect.
The thinner the paths, the more likely it is for them to become underetched - the acid solution gets under the mask and breaks the paths.

Re:I believe you are wrong (3, Insightful)

Pii (1955) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759301)

And to continue the point:

The .13 micron process uses less raw materials, which is a cost savings to the manufacturers.

The smaller die also results in a cooler running chip, which can result in a boon for performance.

The trouble, as archeopterix points out, is that this process requires a great deal of precision. Early yields will likely be prone to failures until the kinks are worked out. Once the line has been straightened out, the accountants will be pleased, as will the speed freaks.

Re:I believe you are wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4762385)

The .13 micron process uses less raw materials, which is a cost savings to the manufacturers.

Pfft, any cost savings on raw materials are laughable compared to the outlays for moving to the new fab process.

Re:I believe you are wrong (1)

Brandon30X (34344) | more than 11 years ago | (#4761978)

Ah but smaller die size means it is less likeley
to be damaged by particulate matter. Im sure its
not a linear relationship, but smaller feature
size does increase yield.

-Brandon

Re:I believe you are wrong (2)

ottffssent (18387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759466)

Environmental defects (a meteoric dust particle crashlands on a few dozen traces) per chip decrease as chips decrease in size. Manufacturing defects per chip increase as chips decrease in size. What the overall effect is depends on the manufacturing plant in question, the chip design in question, and probably the geologic stability of the continent as a whole during critical manufacturing steps.

The original poster is correct: smaller traces => faster chips | lower power.

Another take on Manufacturing process (1)

larsoncc (461660) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759184)

OK, I can see that the manufacturing process is a bone of contention. I had heard from sources like this: http://techzone.pcvsconsole.com/news.php?tzd=1313 that the .13 manufacturing process increases efficiency.

The industries would pursue this unless there was financial gain from it, like PERHAPS better failure rates.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758342)

Don't start bitching about prices! In Australia, we pay up to $800 - $1,000 for the top-of-the-line cards! And a significant part of that price is due to the fact that the hardware is shipped from Taiwan to the USA to Australia, when they could knock a significant amount off the price while keeping the same profit margin just by shipping directly to Australia.

Come to think of it, that applies to almost all hardware out there. And it probably applies to most of (non-US) world. That kinda reminds me about a joke:

"Last month a worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was 'Would you please give your honest opinion about food shortage in the rest of the world?'

The survey was a huge failure:

- in Africa they didnt know what food meant
- in Eastern Europe they didnt know what honest meant
- in Western Europe they didnt know what shortage meant
- in China they didnt know what opinion meant
- in the Middle East they didnt know what solution meant
- in South America they didnt know what please meant
- and in America, they didnt know what the rest of the world meant"

... sorry to get off-topic and bash Americans :)

But seriously, complaining about hardware prices in the US is like complaining about drought when you're floating on a barge in the middle of a fresh-water lake. Sure, you might think you have it tough. But you have it better than almost anyone else.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (0)

rocket97 (565016) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758534)

I am not trying to be a troll here but what exactly do you mean by top-of-the-line cards? Here in America we pay over $3000 for top-of-the-line cards

3dLabs WildCat II [3dlabs.com]

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (2)

T3kno (51315) | more than 11 years ago | (#4760522)

Thank you! There are a lot of people that think that a top of the line graphics card is a GeForce4 Ti 4600. Try a high end Quadro4 980 XGL or a Wildcat II and tell me the GeForce is expensive.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4762478)

I hope you aren't paying more than about $600 [pricewatch.com] for a 5110 :) but, I wouldn't really consider the 5110 a "top-of-the-line" card anymore.

Hell you can get a 6110 for less than $1400. Now a 7110 or 7210 might cost you $3000...

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (0)

rocket97 (565016) | more than 11 years ago | (#4762717)

When you talk about the 5110 yeah you can get those for around $600... but if we are talking about the 5110-G (the one that I linked to which adds a Multiview and Genlock adapter) it is still selling for over $3,000. Granted as you stated the 7210 (Wildcat 4) would be a very nice card to have but then again they are almost impossible to lay your hands on. In fact I have not seen a online store that is selling them.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (2)

Wolfier (94144) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758513)

>When the top-of-the-line graphics card costs
>half of what it does today (heck, say... $150,
>instead of $300, or even $400), THEN that's
>cause to celebrate new manufacturing processes.

For the record: the $400 you talked about is the PRICE not the COST.

Just don't buy the newest top-of-the-line. I always find the top-of-the-line 6 months ago to be the best deals.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (1)

larsoncc (461660) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759304)

Sure. I guess my point is that I'd celebrate a new pricing model (if cheaper) over a new manufacturing process any day.

It's similar to how computing costs have dropped over the past few years. Slimmer margins have encouraged increased volume, which in turn forces manufacturers to find better processes, which lowers manufacturing costs, which starts the process anew.

When there's very little price difference between top of the line and next-to top of the line, people usually pick top of the line, or as close as they can afford.

I see this happening with the "PC commodities" - HDD, RAM, etc. Hopefully the trend will continue to encompass all components.

Hello... lets explain computing... (2)

MosesJones (55544) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758568)

Yes the price of top spec EVERYTHING in computing remains the same. Whether it be servers, PCs, Graphics cards or what ever. Moore's law states that things improve which means....

Ready for it....

WHAT WAS TOP SPEC LAST YEAR ISN'T THIS YEAR

Sorry for the shouting but really, what a silly thing to say. The Top Spec is the most expensive to manufacture as its new, has R&D to pay off and the volumes are lower. As the technology improves it becomes cheaper to make the old Top Spec thing as its now possible to make better things so making the older item becomes simpler, also the volumes go up as the cost goes down which again makes it cheaper to produce.

Saying "Top Spec cost half of what it does today" is just silly, the top spec card TODAY will cost HALF what it does now in 18 months time or so. That is because it will be the commodity item by then. The top spec card 18 months ago is now HALF the price that it was then.

Welcome to computing, its nice to have you aboard.

Re:Hello... lets explain computing... (1)

larsoncc (461660) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759236)

Really?

What did you pay for a top of the line computer 10 years ago? I still have an ad for a PS/2 with XGA graphics, 80 Meg HDD, that retailed for over $10,000.

It would be difficult to find a computer over $5,000 today (unless you're buying a mac!), and with present-value in mind, that means it's less than half price for top of the line.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (3, Insightful)

jonbrewer (11894) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758724)

When the top-of-the-line graphics card costs half of what it does today (heck, say... $150, instead of $300, or even $400), THEN that's cause to celebrate new manufacturing processes.

Funny thing, I just purchased a new AOpen Xabre 400 that performs beautifully (with signed, WHQL drivers that XP doesn't complain about!) - and I paid $105.00. This is a 64MB card with 8x AGP. It also has DVI and SVGA out. This is top of the line, as far as mass market hardware goes.

I looked at the ATI and nVidia based cards and features, and the Xabre trounced them on price/performance. (caveat - I'm not in to FPS) The deciding factor was that it was the cheapest card with 1080*720 resolution DVI output, and OMFG do DVDs look good like this! :-)

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (1)

farnham (160656) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758973)

I believe the point is that these cards using the SiS chipset are already cheap and getting cheaper.
These cards (Xabre) will cost you about fifty bucks. I have an SiS AG315 that I paid forty for with 64mg RAM and tv out. Try looking

Perhaps you should be dancing in the streets already.

Unfortunatley most people out there are blinded by advertising and think they need a godawful expensive card to do 300+ fps in games.

1. Go to newegg, get a card for $42 (ECS AG315T) and have fun.

2.??????

3. Dance in the streets

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (2)

dohcvtec (461026) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759224)

When the top-of-the-line graphics card costs half of what it does today
Why would high-end graphics cards come down in price? For instance, 3DLabs Wildcat-series cards are, conceivably, always going to be priced in the several thousand dollar range. This is the high-end. What you are referring to is the upper level of gaming video cards. IMO the upper level of that segment has come down, but it's a matter of economics, as always. In these days of 3 GHz processors, people aren't so willing to pay $400 for a good gaming card anymore, so economic factors have caused the "high-end" or near high-end of gaming cards to come down. This has nothing to do with the 0.13 micron process, and I don't think anybody has been saying that the 0.13 micron process would drive costs down. If anything, it's to cram more transistors onto a chip and reduce heat/power. Look, there will always be a high-end. For example, even nowadays with the $200 Wal-Mart PC, you can still pay as much as you want at the high-end.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759364)

It's weird though. Back around 1997-1998, a high end graphics card cost about $200 (ex. Voodoo 2 at its release). These days, it's closer to $400. Meanwhile, CPUs have reveresed. They used to cost close to $600, now it's more like $300

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (1)

MentalPunisher2001 (320024) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759488)

But the high end was SLI Voodoo 2, with a separate 2D card.
Some people kept SLI Voodoo 2 rigs with Nvidia Riva 128 2D/3D cards.
That's like $500 bucks.

Re:A new fabrication process = big whoop (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 11 years ago | (#4760893)

That's arguable. Voodoo2 SLI was such a huge leap over anything else on the market, I don't think you could consider it in the same league as say a GeForce4 today. That said, take a look at the original prices of the Voodoo-1 cards, or even the Riva TNT2 or original GeForce cards. They were a whole lot less than the $400 a GeForce4 Ti 4600 cost at launch.

Conclusion... (4, Informative)

swordboy (472941) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758271)

For those who didn't make it through all 14 pages (just asking for a whoopin')... This card has nothing to do with GeforceFX capabilities:

Conclusions
The Xabre600's pixel shaders give it an obvious edge over the Geforce4 MX in a feature category that will only become more important as time goes on. Sure the GeForce4 MX 460 is faster now, but it may not support all the new eye candy in future DirectX 8.1 titles.

Against the Radeon 9000 Pro, the Xabre600 starts to look a lot worse. Here the DirectX compatibility playing field is level, but the Radeon 9000 Pro's pixel shader performance is much better, as is its performance in real world applications. Even if the Xabre600 is able to achieve price parity with the Radeon 9000 Pro, ATI's value offering is still going to be a better deal.

Let's not even get into how the Xabre600 compares with the GeForce4 Ti 4200, because it really doesn't. The GeForce4 Ti 4200 is likely to be the most expensive of the Xabre600's closest competitors, anyway.

The fact that the Xabre600's performance can't keep up with the competition doesn't mean that there isn't value to the part. That SiS is able to produce the chip on a 0.13-micron process is impressive in itself, and I'm happy to see that the new drivers have fixed all the compatibility problems. With the improved compatibility of the latest drivers, SiS at least has a DirectX 8-class graphics chip with the Xabre600, even if it's not the most competitive one.

Re:Conclusion... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4759032)

Ass whoopin? Actually, you deserve ass-kissin', because frankly I am not going to read hardware sites that post 15 page reviews that could have easily been presented in 5 pages. TR didn't do that until this year, and as a result they have lost me as a true reader. Their older format was just as reliable, but not as ad-tastic.

How many would prefer to see the "conclusion" first, and then the supporting data later? Why do we have to have this "let's dump as many ads on you as possible" review format?

Re:Conclusion... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4761961)

Why not use the index provided at the bottom of each page to simply skip ahead to the conclusion, or to whichever particular results you're interesting in viewing?

Great imagry (5, Funny)

SeanTobin (138474) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758277)

Gotta love this quote from the article:
The Xabre600 is positioned against more mid-range offerings like the Radeon 9000 Pro, which is why you won't find it running at 500MHz with a Dustbuster strapped on its back.

0.13 micron? (3, Insightful)

Erpo (237853) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758302)

Does this reduction in size really matter? I mean, it's great that graphics companies can use lower quantities of resources to feed consumer demand (the environment, remember?), but does this particular advance really matter? I'll get excited when price points for new high-end graphics cards get much lower, performance significantly exceeds the curve, or a switch is made to a _much_ smaller manufacturing process (e.g. two digit nanometers).

I guess it just has to do with how much you need to have a faster graphics card than all your friends?

Re:0.13 micron? (2)

thing12 (45050) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758621)

Does this reduction in size really matter?

Yes, size matters quite a bit when it comes to laptops and other mobile devices - even settop boxes for that matter. When you want low power consumption and low heat output smaller chips are the answer. Advances like this always trickle down to the mobile market and consumers benefit as a result.

Re:0.13 micron? (2)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759401)

The ENVIRONMENT??? hello, they're making these out of SAND for crying out loud! Silicon==SAND. Last time I checked Silicon makes about 80% of the earth's crust, and we don't have to worry about running out!

Ok, I'm just joking, sure there's other stuff invovled like aluminum... etc.

Re:0.13 micron? (2)

Erpo (237853) | more than 11 years ago | (#4761469)

The ENVIRONMENT??? hello, they're making these out of SAND for crying out loud!

Yeah, the environment. :)

Chips may be made out of silicon, but there are a whole host of other toxic chemicals that are used in the manufacturing process that you don't receive in the box when you buy your shiny new graphics accelerator.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758310)

Beowulf clusters imagine you!

Sung to the tune of 'On Wisconsin' ... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758321)

Forrest Newman Forrest Newman F O R R New!

great technology, but what about results? (4, Insightful)

qoncept (599709) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758322)

Sega always had a knack for "beating competitors to the punch." Sega Master System, Genesis, Saturn, and Dreamcast were all the first 8-, 16-, 32- and 128-bit systems, respectively. What they all had in common was that when the competitor came out with their system a few months later, Sega's was never as good (from a technology standpoint, of course; I won't go in to what systems were best).

Re:great technology, but what about results? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758569)

Hmm... This goes on. Atari released the first 64-bit console and sole like eight of them. It died a miserable failure.

Re:great technology, but what about results? (1)

Moloch666 (574889) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759019)

RTFA for the results.

Re:great technology, but what about results? (1)

|Cozmo| (20603) | more than 11 years ago | (#4763282)

The dreamcast isn't 128 bit. The graphics chip in it may be but it has a 32 bit cpu. ;)

isn't overly impressive, but it's nice to see... (0, Offtopic)

Alsee (515537) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758338)

The new Saturns have next-generation catalytic converters in the exhaust system. They still release more pollution than Fords and Chryslers, but it's nice to see Saturns one-upping the automotive giants when it comes to green technology.

-

Process Technology (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758366)

Remember, everybody: Don't buy computer chips based on megahertz. Buy them based on their process technology.

Re:Process Technology (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758684)

This is not offtopic and actually insightful.

how many? (2)

llamalicious (448215) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758388)

How many mircon's in a micron? :)

</nitpick>

Ironic.. (2)

irc.goatse.cx troll (593289) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758392)

Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that the smaller (.13 micron) video cards require the much larger heatsync/cooling systems?

Re:Ironic.. (1)

h3rb (629436) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758493)

That's because the smaller the chip..the hotter it gets. Therefore the more you need to cool the chip!

Re:Ironic.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4759568)

not really. smaller size results in higher clock speeds. => more transistors switching => higher power consumption + heat dissapation

Only for bragging rights (3, Insightful)

BillLeeLee (629420) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758397)

If SiS is going to spend millions on the 0.13 micron fab processes, they should really also attempt to make something that can compete with Ati and Nvidia's new cards. As it stands, being able to pump out .13 micron chips seems only like it's for bragging rights, because this chip barely compares with a Radeon 9000, which (I think) is only .15 micron. But hey, maybe SiS really likes spending the money.

Re:Only for bragging rights (2)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759423)

They're probably aiming at the embedded market... motherboards. With a embedded graphics card there's no hope of really competitive performace, so getting something with no heatsink required is important. It would be nice if they didn't lock the clocks though, so you could overclock it well. It sure would have potential.

Unusual. (2)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758403)

There have been a lot of new GPUs and video cards lately but, this one is a little unusual. Although this chip doesn't have quite as high a performance level as some of the newest cards, it also doesn't require a frickin liquid nitrogen refridgeration unit in order to operate safely. In fact, compared with the newest video cards, its small heat sink and fan seem down right anemic. That's a good thing.

Missing the point/performance (5, Insightful)

binaryDigit (557647) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758477)

I think some people are missing the point of this. Some have said ".13u, big whoop, how does that help me? on such a slow *ss chip". Well the point is that SiS is not trying to compete with the big boys on the high not, that's not their schtick. They want to push motherboards, esp to oems, and this product allows them to offer "higher" end graphics to their customers. It won't be long before they shrink the puppy enough to integrate directly into their chipsets, thereby offering oems an attractive compromise between speed and price.

So in the end, the fact that they can "push the envelope" as far as their production process goes does bode well for the consumer. You just have to look at this product in the context for which it was intended.

A little off (2)

mao che minh (611166) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758485)

I think that the statements concerning the article are a bit flawed, considering that the manufacturing if the FX line is already underway by Nvidia. However, the introduction of SiS (or any competitor) into the market will give consumers more options. With only two graphics card manufacturers worth mentioning, the cost of the hardware will continue to follow the same trends. A third player may shake that formula up a bit. Somehow I doubt it, though.

More Manufacturers = Better for us all (2, Insightful)

Soporific (595477) | more than 11 years ago | (#4758574)

Maybe the benchmarks aren't that impressive, but I don't think that's the point. Having a third major manufacturer step up to give ATI and N'Vidia some competition can only be a good thing, if indeed in the future SiS starts making some high end cards. Hopefully it will prevent the others from sitting on their laurels like 3Dfx seemed to do when it introduced the VooDoo 5's and they flopped.

~S

Re:More Manufacturers = Better for us all (2)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759444)

yeah, but it's not going to happen.. ATI and Nvidia both have plenty of cards in the sub $100 market, and a few from each company beat the xabre.

SiS doesn't use copper with 0.13um (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4758745)

That's why Xabre 600 is available before GeForceFX which is using 0.13um copper process.

Lack of copper also explains poor clockspeeds, 0.15um Xabre reached 275MHz and move to 0.13um brings only 10% increase in clockspeed.

Here's a question (1)

mt2mb4me (550507) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759039)

When is cirrus logic comming out with their new gpu?

Hmmm (2, Insightful)

atari2600 (545988) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759055)


Where do i begin:

The dead horse must be turning in it's grave but do you really want to play games on linux? Sure i ran Soldier of FOrtune and it looked better than it did in Windows and Descent III and UT were awesome. But many linux users(including me) prefer Windows for gaming - why? Because i cannot play Tactical Ops on Linux/any other unix - simple reason - there is not much gaming software available for baby linux right now. I am not trolling but the point is i think SiS can forget Linux drivers and make their Windoze drivers better...alteast for now.

I doubt this card would give the ATI 9000 Pro much of a challenge going by the benchmarks in the article. It did give the Geforce4Mx card a run for its money but thats why the 9000 card from ATI entered the market and the ATI 9000 can be bought for 85$ (64MB version)...so unless this Xabre card costs somewhere around 40-50$, i dont see why someone would want this card as a gamer.

I like to play my games at 1024x768 and 16bit color and they usually run great on my Athlon 900 - what card do i have? nVidia Geforce2GTS with 32MB DDR - Even UT2003 ran great - given a choice, i, a budget conscious gamer would get a card somewhere near 80-100$, which is where the Geforce3 Titanium and the 9000Pro cards are right now. Leave the ti4600s and the 9700Pros to the really rich kids - getting a card faster than your friend's card(s) is a cliche - its how much you can shell out and how much you can extract from the little graphics card of yours. I still remember how my Alliance Promotion SVGA PCI card with 2MB VRAM kicked ass while my friend's AGP Trident 8mb sucked in most software rendering modes :). See the point?

It would be good for sis to bring out this card and price it low enough so they still make a profit - if not, well ATI and nVidia aren't stupid. Although they make a lot of money on their high-end cards, more cards are sold in the 70-100$ price range.

Who Cares? (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759415)

Am I the only one who doesn't give a about how many microns the manufacturing process is? It's the result that counts, not how they do it. Since it seems this card isn't up to beating the competition on the features people are looking for, just like other SiS cards in the past, I don't see what's so special about it.

In other news... (1)

VitrosChemistryAnaly (616952) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759481)

It's SiS, it's graphics, who cares?

I really doubt that SiS will really compete with nVidia and ATi in the near future.

What sucks has sucked and will always suck.

SiS Financial Statement Made with Trial Software (3, Funny)

dgenr8 (9462) | more than 11 years ago | (#4759674)


You simply have to hand it to a company whose latest financial report [sis.com] has the words Zeon PDF Driver Trial emblazoned across every page.

.13 but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4760530)

But how many transistors can fit on a human hair? Non-pubic, not negroid (flat), not asian (round), but generic caucasian (oval) head hair?

Sigh. (1)

Flakeloaf (321975) | more than 11 years ago | (#4760689)

Great, ANOTHER video card manufacturer who goes buggering with standards. Here's hoping they get AGP right this time instead of hosing those with certain Intel motherboards.
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