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Hi-tech Work Places no Better than Factories?

CmdrTaco posted more than 11 years ago | from the no-shocker-here dept.

News 801

Anonymous Coward writes "A tasty bit of truth. Again, a Sociology Professor has found out what we all know. He wistfully comments on the state of geekdom in the modern corporation: "They face the lonely insecurity of the individual entrepreneur in a marketplace and culture that stresses, with macho imagery from war and sports, that they are ultimately alone" and adds that... "For many this may be the shape of work in the 21st century." You want to start a union? I mean how much is your boss making at your expense even if he did start the company long before you joined up?"

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0th post ? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787579)

0th post ?

IN SOVIET RUSSIA (-1, Redundant)

IN SOVIET RUSSIA (621411) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787580)

Factories are no better workplaces than Hi-Tech work!

Sorry, not one of my better ones. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787592)

Plus I missed the fisty. :(

That's OK -- you still da man. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787620)

You wanna start a Union? (0, Flamebait)

Em Emalb (452530) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787589)

HELL NO.

Re:You wanna start a Union? (5, Funny)

Subcarrier (262294) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787658)

HELL NO.

Damn right! For a geek a strike would mean not touching the computer for an extended period of time. Can you imagine abstaining from games and pr0n for that long? A few days and we'd be ready for a pay cut...

Re:You wanna start a Union? (2, Funny)

velco (521660) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787678)

Damn right! For a geek a strike would mean not touching the computer for an extended period of time.

What a geek would one be without an own computer ?

Re:You wanna start a Union? (1)

Subcarrier (262294) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787706)

What a geek would one be without an own computer ?

It kind of defeats the purpose of the strike if you go and do it at home for free, don't you think?

Re:You wanna start a Union? (5, Funny)

0x0d0a (568518) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787811)

If you work for a software company on a piece of software and go home and start writing an open source equivalent during your strike time?

Nah, I'd say that this would be significantly more influential than drinking beer at home or picketing or anything that the steelworkers did... :-)

Re:You wanna start a Union? (1)

ArnoZ (627981) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787793)

Yeah, but a short walk would be a great occasion to play with his nifty GPS unit and impress his coworkers...

Re:You wanna start a Union? (5, Interesting)

Allthefuckinggoodnam (621220) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787686)

One of the big problems that my company (a consulting firm specializing in custom software development) faces is rate pressure due to off shore options. Much like the other industries in our country in the past, economic tough times have forced companies to look for cheaper work elsewhere.

I personally am tired of hearing people complain about this phenomenon and come up with bad answers to a very real problem. Creating a union is one "solution" i've heard. The people who make these claims will read an article like this and feel even more strongly that we need to be unionized. I believe this is the worst thing we could do. It will accelerate the trend to go offshore.

The real answer to the job security problem is to find new ways to add value, above and beyond custom development skills (which in many C level executives eyes has become a commodity). Had the steel, audio/video, and textile industries taken a different tact than hiding behind a union to avoid the "constant upgrading of skills" that the author of the articles derides, perhaps they would still be industries that employ millions of Americans.

Just like when I was in school, the sociology professor offers a very bad answer, one that will compound the problem. It amazes me how little things have changed.

Re:You wanna start a Union? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787745)

economic tough times have forced companies to look for cheaper work elsewhere.

The CEO and all his little VPs only make 500 times the salary of their average worker. Dear God! If they fire all the workers and hire a bunch of foreigners for 1/20th their combined salary, maybe the CEO can get that 3rd yacht!

Real economic recovery will only come about by a redistribution of the wealth (ooh, I felt a socialist tingle). Failing that, kill all the CEOs and Republican apologists.

Gimme dat -1 Troll, you fudge packing moderators!

Very interesting point (4, Interesting)

0x0d0a (568518) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787775)

That's a facinating thought. Sure, replacing engineers with an offshore worker saves money...I wonder how hard it is to H1B executives as well? Wouldn't that save...more money per visa, which is a constant cost to the company?

Seems like H1Bs should be aimed at execs, since each visa can save the company more money. Aiming them at engineers is a misuse of company funds.

Re:You wanna start a Union? (5, Interesting)

perljon (530156) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787761)

I agree with you that Unions can be the death or cancer of an industry. For example, in the late 70 and early 80's the car unions fought the implmentation of robots to replace workers. At first, the union kept jobs. But the plants in Japan implemented robots and were able to produce a car quicker, with higher quality, for cheaper. The end result is that the sales of Japanese cars sky-rocketed in the US at the sake of American cars. And all those jobs that were saved from not implementing robots were lost plus tens times that because the industry just couldn't compete. In this case, Unions inhibited inovation and in effect, killed themselves.

On the other hand, in America and all modern productive countries, the masses have given up their freedom to further the goals of the employer. As an employee, I spend most of my life serving my employer. So much of my quality of life is controlled by my employer. (And all full time employees). I think it is reasonable to expect and ask for job security, freedom from wrongful financial persecution (someone firing you 'cause they don't like you), and a reasonably comfortable work environment. After all, I am giving my employer my life. The least I could expect is to be treated fairly.

In conclusion, Unions can be horrible for an industry when they don't consider the business needs of the company. On the other hand, Companies need employees to make money. Employees sacrafice a great deal of control in the employee-employer realtionship. The least a company could do is provide employment fairness and comfort, and restraint on cracking the whip.

Re:You wanna start a Union? (1)

jaymz666 (34050) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787757)

How is this offtopic??? It's even mentioned in the story!

Re:You wanna start a Union? (5, Insightful)

fmaxwell (249001) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787820)

Em Emalb wrote "HELL NO."

I used to feel the same way. I viewed unions as a blue-collar tool to protect people in low-skill jobs. Then I recognized that skilled professionals like airline pilots were unionized. I have started to realize that it would not be such a bad thing to have a tech workers union.

Can you imagine what the Teamsters would do if companies started bringing in the equivalent of H1-B visa workers to drive trucks at below-normal wages?

If we had a union, do you think that Congress would have been able to pass legislation [dol.gov] that specifically exempted hourly computer professionals from receiving 1.5x overtime pay?

Do you think that a union would stand by idly while temp agencies regularly skimmed 30% and more off of the pay earned by immigrants and recent grads in the tech sector?

Do you believe that our industry would consistently lay off older, better-compensated workers only to replace them with recent grads if we had a union?

I know that there is going to a lot of macho posturing on here with people boasting that they are so good that they can set their own terms. But posturing is all that it is. For every 100 people that claim to be in the driver's seat in such contract negotiations, maybe one really is. The majority of companies have standard terms and don't deviate from them except for the most highly compensated corporate officers. Tell them you won't work for them unless they agree to include a buyout clause on your contract and they will tell you to take a hike. Just take a look at the average software engineer's office and compare it to the offices of people in other jobs that require similar quantities of skill and education. Do you think that corporate attorneys regularly sit in cramped cubicles?

The longer I am in this field (now more than 20 years), the more I start to believe a union would be a good thing.

Re:You wanna start a Union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787822)

Homer: You guys work on the movie?
Teamster: You sayin' we're not working?
Homer: Oh, I always wanted to be a Teamster. So lazy and surly...mind if I relax next to you?

Stop whining (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787598)

Go start your own business, then. And when you have employees, they can whine about how you're making more money than they are. Jeez, how pathetic.

Re:Stop whining (0, Flamebait)

fmaxwell (249001) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787614)

And the right-wing, Republican, wealth-makes-right loonies already have their word in with less than 1/2 dozen postings.

"It's my sweatshop so I can pay the children 50 cents per day if I want. How dare people complain? I'm an entrepreneur, damnit!"

Yeah, right.

Re:Stop whining (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787689)

And the left-wing, Democrat, tax-everyone-into-poverty kooks already have their lame reply.

"Why should this black, Jerry Springer watching, crack smoking, single mom (with 4 kids from the same number of fathers) have to work to support her illegal drug use? You work 70+ hours a week, so we'll take half your pay and give it to her. We're liberals, damnit!"

Re:Stop whining (4, Insightful)

Dun Malg (230075) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787722)

And the right-wing, Republican, wealth-makes-right loonies already have their word in with less than 1/2 dozen postings.

If you disagree, state your "better" ideas. You sound like the usual progressive who says "I don't know the answer, I only know that this isn't it."

Re:Stop whining (5, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787748)

Go start your own business, then. And when you have employees, they can whine about how you're making more money than they are. Jeez, how pathetic.


great words from someone that has ZERO clue.

I did start a business, I did have employees. everything went well until I sold out to another company for a tidy profit. My employees broght home more than I did because I did something silly... I invested back into the business to ensure that it did very well in the face of bad business times. Over 5 years before I was made an offer that I couldn't refuse.

so now I can hear you... "selling out on your employees, you're no better!" Yup.. they each recieved a healthy part of that tidy sum. as a reward and a thank you for doing me a favor oaa those years by working to make my business bigger and stronger.

Any business man that does not recognize that he is nothing without his employees and does not pay them well is a thief, shiester and a crook.. and NEEDS to have a union form in his business.

the problem is that lately the people starting the businesses have ZERO business sense or are not interested in doing anything but a rape-n-pillage run.

I can see it now. (4, Funny)

torre (620087) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787607)

I can see it now a geek union which would certainly cater to the the ever important needs and issues of our culture...

And this great union would add a clause somewhere in the collective agreement with the employer that slashdot is a right that cannot be taken away during work hours! :)

Union == stagnation == no jobs worth taking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787720)

Union means that years of servie equals to your
pay rate regardless of how well/bad you perform.

Fairly stupid academic blind advocation of unions.

Another democrat liberal seeing a group of people as exploited and in need of help.

I'd rather rely on myself and not some union boss.

anyone think this is going to change soon? (5, Insightful)

dandelion_wine (625330) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787609)

With the glut of new workers pursuing that Silicon Valley dream, there'll be plenty of grist for this mill with no need to change any time soon.

And let's face it. Employers benefit from people's "But I'll be the exception!" mentality the way the government profits from lotteries and the service industry profits from aspiring actors.

Dont like it? (3, Interesting)

Matey-O (518004) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787617)

mean how much is your boss making at your expense even if he did start the company long before you joined up?
Having watched my parents be entrepreneurs for 20 odd years, I'd posit: The Boss is ALLOWED to make money at your expense. Why? Because he/she had the balls to start the buisness, maintain the business, and financially SUPPORT the business untill it was viable. (or, like 80% of all new businesses -- go under.) Don't like it? Go start a business, THEN you can comment on how to do or do not like the salary structure.

Re:Dont like it? (0, Flamebait)

anarchima (585853) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787631)

That seems like a bit of a ludicrous statement as what you're saying basically condones exploitation of human beings. It's people like you that lead to Communistic Revolutions...

Re:Dont like it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787739)

And we've seen how well those communist revolutions have worked. :) The person who starts a company takes on the lion's share of risk and they should get the lion's share of the reward. If the employees want to *buy* into some of that risk...

Re:Dont like it? (4, Insightful)

BHearsum (325814) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787632)

Not everyone has the skills to start a business. Some of us of the skills to be employees. A business needs employees just as much as it needs a boss.

Re:Dont like it? (0)

nmg (614483) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787700)

Exactly. Just so we're clear, that doesn't mean the employees deserve to be paid the same as the employers.

Re:Dont like it? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787777)

Funny, just so we're clear, it doesn't mean the bosses deserve to be paid more than their employees. I'm sorry, but CEO's are making out like bandits.

And as a computer programmer who was very good, I can tell you my project managers, both company and client side, sucked ass, and weren't worth whatever they were being paid. The problem is simple; the people running the businesses are the ones who were most successful at leaching off of other people, consumers and employees alike. THAT, my friend, is the reality of the situation.

And to those who say, well, why not just start a business? Because I want some bloody land, and you can't get a reasonablely-priced mortgage unless you have at least 2 years of records for your business, of which 2 of them have to be years you have shown a profit.

The end result, a person who basically runs his own projects, looking for "security" of a wage-slave job.... Thats the system we live in.

Re:Dont like it? (1)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787807)

CEOs are making out like bandits if they are hired CEOs of public companies, and they set their own pay. They may be effectively stealing money from the shareholders.

However if you're the founder and owner of the business, then no matter how much you earn you cannot be guilty of stealing from yourself.

Re:Dont like it? (3, Insightful)

gaj (1933) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787782)

A business needs employees just as much as it needs a boss.
The hell it does. A business can exist with just the "boss"; the entrepreneur. An employee can only exist if there is a "boss" to hire him.

As in all things, it's not the lack of skills. Skills can be learned. Face it: it's the lack of desire. The lack of drive.

I'm not knocking people who don't have that entrepreneurial drive; I've not started my own company yet (though I've made two abortive attempts). But I'm only worth what an employer is willing to pay. Note that I didn't specify my current employer. I'm free to try to find a better match; someone who values my particular skill set and persona more than my current employer. I'm not interested in doing so right now, because I already found an employer that treats me quite well, thank you very much.

Re:Dont like it? (3)

boaworm (180781) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787637)

Exactly.. you are not employed by your boss to be inovative to yourself, but to him. Very simple.. why else would he hire you..


If you think you're better off alone, then start your own.

Re:Dont like it? (2, Informative)

bricriu (184334) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787664)

"Has the balls," or in the more likely case, has the family/school connections to bum enough money off of banks or investors.

And keep in mind that many of these buisenesses that he's talking about still have yet to prove thair viability -- in fact, their potential to profit is often based solely off of the abilities and long hours of IT workers that are socially bullied into overwork and treated like interchangeable cogs in a boss's machine, with no security to prevent them from being dumped on the street at the first downturn. That was the point of the article, not taht bosses don't deserve to get paid more.

Re:Dont like it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787732)

"Has the balls," or in the more likely case, has the family/school connections to bum enough money off of banks or investors.

^^ Excuses, excuses. Starting a business always involves taking more risks, losing money, and failure. Due to all three, it takes BALLS like he said. You can pretend everybody who you think is better off, had an easier time than it would for you to do the same; OR, you could actually go ahead and do some entrepreneurship and see how hard it is for yourself. You have done everything perfectly--anybody who you think was able to accomplish more goals, must have had outside 'resources' that you didn't. NOT.

Re:Dont like it? (2, Insightful)

xyote (598794) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787734)

I assume you are talking about a small business. Small businesses and large businesses are different enough that I wouldn't try to generalize between the two. It's large businesses that generally do the most exploitation and try to maintain that through political lobbying.


Small businesses may seem similar, but that's because very few small business owners will hire someone as a peer equal with as big an ego as their own. They prefer someone at a disadvantage, so they're not above a little bottom feeding themselves.

Re:Dont like it? (5, Insightful)

FauxPasIII (75900) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787737)

> Go start a business, THEN you can comment on how to do or do not like the salary structure.

So... only the rich mangement class are allowed to even voice an opinion on pay structure and labor issues ? That sounds... surprisingly like the current U.S. system, actually.

Re:Dont like it? (1, Interesting)

NineNine (235196) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787765)

Re:Dont like it? (Score:2)
by FauxPasIII on Sunday December 01, @11:38AM (#4787737)
(User #75900 Info)
> Go start a business, THEN you can comment on how to do or do not like the salary structure.

So... only the rich mangement class are allowed to even voice an opinion on pay structure and labor issues ?


Yup. That about sums it up. The employee has the option of working or not working there. There's no reason whatsoever for an employee to have a voice when it comes to pay unless A. They're an owner or B. They are negotiating their initial employment contract. Other than that, no, no say whatsoever.

Re:Dont like it? (3, Informative)

__past__ (542467) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787784)

I don't know if "have the balls" to start a business, but guess what - I don't want to start one. I want to write fricken code, not mess around with stupid paperwork, raising funds, lying to customers^W^W^Wmarketing etc.

I'm happy that there are people who like bothering with the boring stuff, so I don't have to. I just don't think that they are somehow "more important" to a business than the people who actually create the product it sells. The idea of companies magically making tons of money without having any useful product kind of got unpopular scince the dotcom disaster.

Re:Dont like it? (2)

0x0d0a (568518) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787790)

I think that this is fairly reasonable -- *if* your boss is the founder and owner of the company. At small companies, sure the guy deserves the respect you mentioned. If he's some guy that got hired to be an exec at a big company, though...

Re:Dont like it? (1)

tyrione (134248) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787798)

Another thought is, "Who in the Union is making money off the concept of the Union?" Afterall, do you want two bosses or just one? If the answer is none, then be the entrepreneur and take the risks.

How about I bitch about the salary structure (3, Insightful)

91degrees (207121) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787814)

If the boss doesn't like it, he can get rid of me, and the rest of the workers.

He's not doing me a favour by letting me work for him. he's hoping to get more than his moneys worth from me. I'm hoping to get the amount I'm worth from him. I'll meet him halfway.

Re:Dont like it? (2)

tshak (173364) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787821)

We're all proud of our family members but just because they worked hard doesn't mean that they are allowed to exploit people. I'm not saying that your parent's did any exploitation (I don't know), nor am I saying that they aren't allowed to profit more then their employees (of course they are, it's their business). My problem is that just because you took the risk doesn't mean that the company is successful because of you - that's almost impossible. It is because of the employees that you are a profitable company. Sure, you took the first step, and you found the talent that made the company successful, and you should be reasonable compensated for that. But, the second you start hiring people is the second you took on more investors. These are people investing a large portion of their lives (8+ hours a day) into your venture, and they should be treated accordingly.

negative, much? (5, Insightful)

spacefem (443435) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787621)

We're safer, we breath cleaner air. We don't suffer from hearing loss. We're not on our feet all day and we make good money.

Yeah, life sure is tough.

If you think a factory is better, go work in a factory! I'll stay in my cubicle and deal with being "lonely and insecure". I'm very thankful for my job and anyone who thinks a career in an office is difficult needs a big reality check. We have it very good, people.

Re:negative, much? (2, Insightful)

redfiche (621966) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787641)

I have done both jobs in my life, and there is no comparison. The only benefit of the factory job was that it was somewhat less stressful, but it was also much less rewarding. I am much better off with my developer job.

Re:negative, much? (5, Insightful)

Dun Malg (230075) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787684)

If you think a factory is better, go work in a factory!

Say it again, brother. I once worked in a factory that made plastic buckets. You know how handles get put on buckets? It ain't a machine what does it. It's people. People standing at tables and trying to make a quota for minimum wage. Argh. I have a co-worker who once worked in a factory where they made the coily handset cords for telephones. When the "kids" at our workplace complain about their slacker jobs, we like to trot out our factory stories. Doesn't help though. People who haven't worked in factories usually don't appreciate the mind-numbing repetition that goes on in a factory. I'd rather be exploited for $30K a year in a job that requires thinking than be exploited for $9K in a job that encourages brain death.

Re:negative, much? (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787738)

Not true everywhere.

In a factory with noise levels you are given earprotection. In a server room full of dozens of whirring fans for years at a time you aren't given hearing protection.

I've worked IT in some nasty places, basements with terrible molds that caused terrible lung problems, basements with Brown Recluse spiders that hop on the face when you are under a desk and bite you.

It's not all cubes and offices for IT/IS workers.

Re:negative, much? (1)

s20451 (410424) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787769)

In a server room full of dozens of whirring fans for years at a time you aren't given hearing protection.

Really now. I suppose it's never occurred to you to spend $1.50 on earplugs at the local drug store? You know, you are allowed to take corrective action by yourself without a union or the government telling you what's safe and what isn't. And (under Canadian law at least), you have the right to refuse unsafe working conditions without punishment, union or no.

Re:negative, much? (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787826)

If you wear earplugs in the server room, how the hell do I hear the phone ring?

No it didn't have a light on it.

When you are doing servers and desktop support, you have to answer that phone.

When the job requirement says you are stuck there, you are stuck there.

I'm leaving said job because I refuse to go into Brown Recluse Spiderland any more.

Thanks to Bush's Estate Tax Cut, I'm going to college.

Not for me (5, Insightful)

redfiche (621966) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787627)

I work in a highly collaborative, challenging environment. I sometimes work long hours, but my time is extremely flexible and I am almost entirely self-directed. The job has it's stresses, but it's the best job I've ever had, and I wouldn't trade it.

When I talk to the other employees in other departments, I see that the developers have much more security, and much better working conditions, than anyone but the executives.

Moronpeiope (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787630)

First post!!!!
yes this is the firstest post in this thread??????
Yes keke ^_ ^

Argh! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787644)

I hate you all! Why can't I stop coming here? The party line makes me want to vomit. FUCK.

The Art of Cunniligus (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787645)

Hey, I have a lot of respect for all you guys who like to eat pussy because there are too few of you out there. And I'm not the only woman who says this. Furthermore, some of you guys who are giving it the old college try are not doing too well, so maybe this little lesson will help you out. When a woman finds a man who gives good head, she's found a treasure she's not going to let go of him too quickly. This is one rare customer and she knows it. She won't even tell her girlfriends about it or that guy will become the most popular man in town. So, remember, most guys can fuck, and those who can usually do it satisfactorily, but the guy who gives good head, he's got it made.
Most women are shy about their bodies. Even if you've got the world's most gorgeous woman in bed with you, she's going to worry about how you like her body. Tell her it's beautiful, tell her which parts you like best, tell her anything, but get her to trust you enough to let you down between her legs. Now stop and look at what you see.
Beautiful, isn't it?
There is nothing that makes a woman more unique than her pussy.

I know. I've seen plenty of them. They come in all different sizes, colors and shapes; some are tucked inside like a little girl's cunnie and some have thick luscious lips that come out to greet you. Some are nested in brushes of fur and others are covered with transparent fuzz. Appreciate your woman's unique qualities and tell her what makes her special. Women are a good deal more verbal than men, especially during love-making. They also respond more to verbal love, which means, the more you talk to her, the easier it will be to get her off. So all the time you're petting and stroking her beautiful pussy, talk to her about it.
Now look at it again.
Gently pull the lips apart and look at her inner lips, even lick them if you want to. Now spread the tops of her pussy up until you can find her clit. Women have clits in all different sizes, just like you guys have different sized cocks. It doesn't mean a thing as far as her capacity for orgasm. All it means is more of her is hidden underneath her foreskin.
Whenever you touch a woman's pussy, make sure your finger is wet. You can lick it or moisten it with juices from inside her. Be sure, by all means, to wet it before you touch her clit because it doesn't have any juices of its own and it's extremely sensitive. Your finger will stick to it if it's dry and that hurts. But you don't want to touch her clit anyway. You have to work up to that. Before she becomes aroused, her clit is too delicate to be handled.
Approach her pussy slowly. Women, even more so than men, love to be teased. The inner part of her thigh is her most tender spot. Lick it, kiss it, make designs on it with the tip of your tongue. Come dangerously close to her pussy, then float away. Make her anticipate it.
Now lick the crease where her leg joins her pussy. Nuzzle your face into her bush. Brush your lips over her slit without pressing down on it to further excite her. After you've done this to the point where your lady is bucking up from her seat and she's straining to get more of you closer to her, then put your lips right on top of her slit.
Kiss her, gently, then harder. Now use your tongue to separate her pussy lips and when she opens up, run your tongue up and down between the layers of pussy flesh. Gently spread her legs more with your hands. Everything you do with a woman you're about to eat must be done gently.
Tongue-fuck her. This feels divine. It also teases the hell out of her because by now she wants some attention given to her clit. Check it out. See if her clit has gotten hard enough to peek out of its covering. If so, lick it. If you can't see it, it might still be waiting for you underneath. So bring your tongue up to the top of her slit and feel for her clit. You may barely experience its presence. But even if you can't feel the tiny pearl, you can make it rise by licking the skin that covers it. Lick hard now and press into her skin.
Gently pull the pussy lips away and flick your tongue against the clit, hood covered or not. Do this quickly. This should cause her legs to shudder. When you sense she's getting up there toward orgasm, make your lips into an O and take the clit into your mouth. Start to suck gently and watch your lady's face for her reaction. If she can handle it, begin to suck harder. If she digs it, suck even harder. Go with her. If she lifts her pelvis into the air with the tension of her rising orgasm, move with her, don't fight her. Hang on, and keep your hot mouth on her clit. Don't let go. That's what she'll be saying too: 'Don't stop. Don't ever stop!'
There's a reason for that - most men stop too soon. Just like with cock sucking, this is something worth learning about and worth learning to do well. I know a man who's a lousy fuck, simply lousy, but he can eat pussy like nobody I know and he never has trouble getting a date. Girls are falling all over him.
But back to your pussy eating session...There's another thing you can do to intensify your woman's pleasure. You can finger-fuck her while she's enjoying your clit-licking talents. Before, during or after. She'll really like it. In addition to the erogenous zones surrounding her clit, a woman has another extremely sensitive area at the roof of her vagina. This is what you rub up against when you're fucking her. Well, since your cock is pretty far away from your mouth, your fingers will have to do the fucking.
Take two fingers. One is too skinny and three is too wide and therefore can't get deep enough. Make sure they're wet so you don't irritate her skin. Slide them inside, slowly at first, then a little faster. Fuck her with them rhythmically. Speed up only when she does. Listen to her breathing.
She'll let you know what to do. If you're sucking her clit and finger-fucking her at the same time, you're giving her far more stimulation than you would be giving her with your cock alone. So you can count on it that she's getting high on this. If there's any doubt, check her out for symptoms. Each woman is unique. You may have one whose nipples get hard when she's excited or only when she's having an orgasm. Your girl might flush red or begin to tremble. Get to know her symptoms and you'll be a more sensitive lover.
When she starts to have an orgasm, for heaven's sakes, don't let go of that clit. Hang in there for the duration. When she starts to come down from the first orgasm, press your tongue along the underside of the clit, leaving your lips covering the top. Move your tongue in and out of her cunt. If your fingers are inside, move them a little too, gently though, things are extremely sensitive just now.
If you play your cards right, you'll get some multiple orgasms this way. A woman stays excited for a full hour after she's had an orgasm. Do you realize the full impact of that information? The potential? One woman was clocked at 56 orgasms at one sitting. Do you know what effect you would have on a woman you gave 56 orgasms to? She'd be yours as long as you wanted her.
The last advice I have for you is this: After you've made her come, made her your slave by giving her the best head she's ever had, don't leave her alone just yet. Talk to her, stroke her body, caress her breasts. Keep making love to her quietly until she's come all the way down. A man can get off and go to sleep in the same breath and feel no remorse, no sense of loss. But a woman by nature requires some sensitivity from her lover in those first few moments after sex.
Oral sex can be the most exciting sexual experiences you can have. But it's what you make it. Take your time, practice often, pay attention to your lover's signals, and most of all, enjoy yourself.
The G-Spot
This does exist. And in over half of the women out there, it works better than anything else you can do to cause a strong, prolonged orgasm. The original name is the Grafenberg spot, after a doctor, Earnest Grafenberg, who documented the area (which may have been known by people here and there throughout history) in the fifties.
This "spot" is a small "mound" of tissue inside the vagina, between a penny and quarter in size, which responds to being pressed upon. It's almost certainly not the skenes glands, (which are located around the urethra, which is behind the G-spot area), as has been suggested by a few people. In fact, the G-Spot is the tissue in that raised area of the vagina, which has a higher concentration of sexual nerves, and produces hormones similar to those made by the male's prostate gland.
A sort of map to the area -- Imagine your lover lying on her back, legs spread. Your position is between her legs. You would slide a finger inside her vagina, palm up. With your finger straight back, middle finger is best, you would curve it toward yourself, gently, as if you were gesturing to someone to "come here". In doing so, the area you press on should be pretty near her "G-Spot" area. If you know enough to follow the urethra (the tube that leads from the bladder to where the pee comes out), along the inside of her vagina, you may feel a slight swelling (if she's excited) at the point where the g-spot is.
She must be excited, especially if either you or she is new to the g-spot, for the g-spot to have any real effect at all. It's not the ideal area for getting your lover aroused.
But when she is excited, this area (more often than not) is the best way to bring her to orgasm. You work your way back to it gradually, teasing her (typically, this works best) with your fingers, slowly and gently. It's easier to hit the right area with two fingers, but this may not be comfortable for her, depending on how "tight" she is at that moment. When you have your fingers around the right area, try gently pressing, not too quickly. The movement should be fairly rhythmic. It's typically best if you're licking her clitoris (or near it, depending on the woman) at the same time...don't make a big deal out of the "quest", this will often make her feel self-conscious, or distracted. The licking should seem to be the primary activity.
When you find the right area, she should respond by getting more excited. Most of the vagina's inside surface isn't really that sexually sensitive, believe it or not...most of the excitement of randomly inserting fingers is more psychological than from the actual stimulation.
While more complicated techniques work with some women, some of the time, the best basic technique, upon finding the g-spot, is to continue to slowly, rhythmically press on it, while licking her clitoris (for a few women, the labia (lips) are sensitive to licking, too).
This should cause her to build up to an orgasm.
A G-Spot orgasm is different (always, when it works at all) than any other kind women have. It is possible, with some women, to have different qualities and kinds of orgasms from vaginal, clitoral, anal, and even breast stimulation...but with other women, those kinds of orgasms are all pretty much the same. But the G-Spot orgasm not only feels different; it also causes her body to react in a different way.
First, it often causes a "push out" orgasm. The area around, or "above" (farther inside, that is) your fingers seems to swell up or to contract toward the opening of her vagina.
If you find the right combination of pushing back when this happens, and slacking off to let it push out, you can cause (in perhaps half of the women) her orgasm to continue happening, long after normal ones would have subsided. In some women you can even keep her at a "plateau" (raised level) of sexual excitement, like a prolonged orgasm (or a little less than one) afterward, building up to an even bigger climax.
That brings me to another important point; G-Spot orgasms sometimes causes a huge amount (relatively speaking) of lubrication (juices, wetness)...far more than even the most excited woman gets from "conventional" stimulation.
When that extra wetness combines with the push-out orgasm, you get actual ejaculation...like a guy, but much better tasting. The built up juices can shoot out in such volume that you, or she, may be afraid that she lost control of her bladder. That is (almost always) not what happened. The fear that she peed can be enhanced by the fact that the urethra is behind the g-spot, so that in rare cases the woman can sometimes get the feeling that she needs to pee, even though she does not.
In reality, in both men and women, enough sexual excitement prevents peeing, unless you try really hard. This is a built-in reflex, because urine is something of a spermicide. The "pee hard-on" that men get in the morning is partially his body taking advantage of this reflex, to keep him from accidentally wetting the bed with the urine that built up while he was sleeping.
Taste
Anyone who likes, say, coffee or beer should have no room to complain about the way most women taste. No, I don't mean it tastes like coffee or beer, genius...I mean that beer and coffee are, at best, acquired tastes...they are not naturally pleasant to a human being, no matter how much your addiction to one or both has convinced you otherwise. Most people, whether they remember it or not, had to learn to like the taste of beer/coffee, and had the desire to be Like the Adults to help them along. Well, I'd list taking pleasure in cunnilingus above drinking addictive beverages on the list of things that prove maturity. Aside from that, there's the fact that many people who give it an honest try genuinely enjoy the taste/smell.

Implementation is unique not Ideas (1)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787646)

Isee this saem arguement again and again in many forms..

From oh India programmers will take away all high paying jobs..

oh this that and other..

With more than 10 billion in the world economy ideas are not unique and special..but that unique programing implementation is..

Thats why its called sofware engineering..

Want to beat India programmers and own your next million dollar company desing the code around a unique implementation..that no one has done..

Remember no one makes money making an ebay or mazone clone..

I would say that in High tech you are allowed to think and reason..in factories this is not the case..they expect you to be dumb sheep and look for that particular hiring trait..

The next Woz is out there are you ready for his or her new products to wow your mind?

Sociology? At your expense? WTF? (2, Insightful)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787650)

Is this Marxism-101? An Anonymous Coward posts something about how we're all exploited by the Bosses, and it makes the Front Page?

cat /dev/clue > AC

Nobody is "exploiting" you. If you work for what they pay, then its a business deal, and done. If you don't like your pay, renegotiate, quit, or SHUT UP. Because your company founder put his brains, personal capital, and personal life on the line to start a company, WHICH PUTS THE FOOD ON YOUR TABLE, and now makes more $$ than you, doesn't mean he's "exploiting" you. People have been hearing the worn-out battle cry of the second-raters so long that they're starting to believe it. Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, man trades with man, to the profit and benefit of both. Nobody is forcing you to work (at least in Civilized places). Your boss gets the fruit of your labors, you get a check. His company grows, he lines his pockets, and you sleep under a roof. If that bothers you, start your own company.

Re:Sociology? At your expense? WTF? (0)

nmg (614483) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787709)

In Soviet Slashdot, everyone deserves to be paid whatever they think they deserve, regardless of what they are actually worth.

Re:Sociology? At your expense? WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787728)

"Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, man trades with man, to the profit and benefit of both."

Yup, sure sounds like some-one studied Marxism-101 to me. But I'm not sure whether you passed that particular course.

Mod Up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787740)

Thank you You need to be modded up. Not a troll by far. Even if I disagreed I would mod you up.

Re:Sociology? At your expense? WTF? (4, Insightful)

velco (521660) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787799)

Is this Marxism-101? An Anonymous Coward posts something about how we're all exploited by the Bosses, and it makes the Front Page?

Labeling something "Marxism" gets you nowhere and effectively stops the reasonable discussion.

I can too label the current state of the affairs "Wild Capitalism".

Nobody is "exploiting" you. If you work for what they pay, then its a business deal, and done.

That's right.

If you don't like your pay, renegotiate, quit, or SHUT UP.

And that's not, except "renegotiate". However, the problem is that you're not ABLE to negotiate, because there are some 10 people outside, waiting for the same job and they have all to insist in same benefits.

Because your company founder put his brains, personal capital, and personal life on the line to start a company, WHICH PUTS THE FOOD ON YOUR TABLE, and now makes more $$ than you, doesn't mean he's "exploiting" you.

Yes, it means. Because I put my brains too, I put my personal capital too (be it time or knowledge or abilities) and I put my personal life too for the company, WHICH PUTS THE FOOD ON HIS TABLE, and in addition puts the mannor, the spa, the limousine, the jet, etc.

It is OK, if he makes more than me, but making 500 times more is RIDICULOUS.

If that bothers you, start your own company.

This is just outrageous. You effectively claim the workers have no rights, and if they want rights they must become employers first !

~velco

blue vs white (5, Insightful)

wirzcat (221710) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787651)

I work in an IT dept for a really big company. They have some huge factories and employ lots of blue collar union workers. I have never really agreed with all union concepts. But....it sure seems enjoyable that they make more money than me, aren't constantly retraining, aren't chaseing some scam cert, and have a life outside of work.

Re:blue vs white (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787778)

haha, then go do it for a while. You must be a young'un. If not then you must be rather dense.

Monotonous, no thought required work, working in the heat, cold, rain, breathing death fumes, sore as a bitch after a day of work, joint damage so the pain continues after you get old, and I could keep going.

Trust me, if you have a choice, and have tried both, no one would pick manual labor.

What about academia? (5, Interesting)

Jaalin (562843) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787654)

I have never understood why all CS majors want to end up with programming jobs. CS is much more than software engineering, but I know exactly 2 other CS undergrads at my school that want to go into academia. Being a professor is a great job, and doing research in an area that you enjoy (for me, graph theory and combinatorial design theory) is fun and rewarding. And if you love to program, you can always do research into language design, software engineering, etc. Why go to Silicon Valley looking for a job which will drive you insane and burn you out by the time you're thirty when you can have fun doing original research and can't be fired thanks to tenure?

Re:What about academia? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787675)

You gloss over the much-worse-than-corporate interdepartmental politics that are part of being in academia. Most of the IT people I know (including myself) wouldn't be able to put up with it.

Re:What about academia? (1)

WetCat (558132) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787680)

One of the reasons: extremely bad and jealous relations with "co-scientists" in most science labs as far as I know. Grant system encourages that relationships.

Re:What about academia? (1)

flwombat (190748) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787704)

No kidding! I am also surprised by this. I have heard people in my program complain about the fact that the CS dept. is part of the Div. of Math Sciences instead of the College of Engineering. That's one of my favorite things about it! I don't want it to be (just) a training program for programmers. I was a programmer before I went back to finish my B.S. I suppose I might be a slightly better-paid one if I go back to it after graduation, but it just feels like... oh, like I've been there before. What else does programming have to offer me?

School, on the other hand, while arduous and financially risky in many ways, comes with the promise of being paid to learn new stuff that nobody knows yet... my fantasy life!

Re:What about academia? (5, Interesting)

reynolds_john (242657) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787760)

I believe you are a bit behind the times. My father recently retired from a major university here in Arizona. One of the things on the plate right now is to remove tenure for teachers.
Increasingly, universities are run as corporations, complete with greed, terrible politics, and lack of interest in their teachers. ASU is a wonderful example of this - there have been articles in the Arizona Republic newspaper about the 'brain drain' hemmoraging from ASU because they just won't pay their teachers even close to what they deserve.
As for any business, you must eventually understand that the future is already written; we are all to be temp workers. I'm not sure how painful this transition will be, but already there are very few bastions of stable, long-term work. Heck, just look at what our president passed (or should I say "snuck" through) on Friday - ability to hire/fire workers, displace federal workers in place of the private sector, etc. etc.
A good friend of mine has tried over and over to get a stable IT job - he's been through it now about ten times in the last year. Each time there was a different excuse, and the last few times they've fired and re-hired the next day for someone who was willing to work cheaper! In his words, "Welcome to Corporate America: do what you can, just don't get caught."

Re:What about academia? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787808)

Sounds like they're trying to tell him something?!

I'll never work for someone else again (4, Informative)

Jafafa Hots (580169) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787659)

Why pay someone 90% of the proceeds of your labor for the priviledge of working for them? I am self-employed now (as much as I can be, with disabilities) and even if back to 100% health would never go to work for someone else again. A friend is a mechanic, works for a big chain, doing mufflers and brakes. When the company has billed the customers $4000, his cut is about $300. His customers are so loyal to his work that when he left one place and went to another, they followed. So I ask him "Why not just work for yourself, start out on your own?" After all, he manages the day to day operations, knows all the ins and outs of ordering, etc. Answer? NO GUTS. For generations we have all been fed this lie - the American work ethic, that says to go to work for someone ELSE and work HARD, 40, 50, 60 hours a week to get by. Corporations count on us buying into that so they will have a ready source of peons.

Re:I'll never work for someone else again (5, Insightful)

Surak (18578) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787756)

When the company has billed the customers $4000, his cut is about $300. His customers are so loyal to his work that when he left one place and went to another, they followed. So I ask him "Why not just work for yourself, start out on your own?" After all, he manages the day to day operations, knows all the ins and outs of ordering, etc. Answer? NO GUTS.

Hmmm..well, the thing is out of the $4000 that was billed, on average, about $2000 is overhead -- rent or mortgage, utilities, marketing and so forth and materials. Then he gets his $300, plus it costs the company an additional $150. That leaves about $1550. Unless your friend reinvests part of that into the company, Uncle Sam gets about 1/3rd of that, or about $520. That leaves $1000. That's *IF* the shop is getting good margins. Most likely, the margins are a lot less than that and the overhead is more like $2500-3000. Meaning that the shop probably makes a whole $200-400 (not much more than your mechanic friend) or so on the whole $4000. Assuming everything's going well of course, and there aren't unforseen costs.

That $4000 sounds like a lot of money. Trust me, it isn't.

Re:I'll never work for someone else again (2, Insightful)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787816)

I agree with this, but not the spirit of the article which basically say Hi-tech workers are exploited, worse than factories, and bosses actually make money off them (the horror). Its called capitalism, and your post underlined the essense of it all - personal choice. If you have guts, you can go out on your own, if not (or just rather not have the hassle) you are gonna have to navigate the workplace scene and find yourself a job you like.

Re:I'll never work for someone else again (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787818)

That's not totally true. Some people just like to do what they do and not worry about all the crap you have to when you own your own business.

In the end you end up doing more business work than the work you love. If you love the business work then fine, but those are the people who own their own business! See how that works out?

It's a choice and not everyone WANTS to run their own business. Either way it's a trade off, there is no perfect answer for everyone.

Bollocks..... (5, Informative)

crivens (112213) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787666)

You don't get your fingers crushed in a high-tech workplace by dodgy machinery, you earn a much better salary, you're not breathing dangerous toxins and you are able to afford a life. I'd rather work in cubicle land than in a 19th century (or even 20th!) factory.

Does this differentiate between R/D and coding?? (4, Informative)

MarvinMouse (323641) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787671)

If it does, then I can understand.

This is the main reason why I want to involved with Research and Development and become a professor. I would rather create new things than (as one of my old bosses put it) "Tell a computer what to do" for the rest of my life.

In a factory, just like behind a computer programming, you somehow become subordinate to the machine. That is what leads to employee unsatisfaction in my opinion.

Re:Does this differentiate between R/D and coding? (2, Interesting)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787825)

You only become subordinate to the machine when you don't understand it or what it's doing. If you know what you're doing, you'll never be subordinated by it or it's seeming whims. Coding can be very enjoyable if you have flexibility in how you do it, and the know-how to achieve your goals, otherwise it'll just be one long headache after another.

Mathematics (5, Interesting)

div_2n (525075) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787673)

It all boils down to mathematics. Every employee costs money. Consider the following:

S = Salary/Hourly Wage
B = Benefits
A = Administrative overhead (payroll, etc)
I = Business insurance cost per person
R = Revenue from your work
P = Profit from your work

P = R - (S + B + A + I)

Viewing this model you can draw several quick conclusions. First, if you are doing billable work, then the quickest way to get a pay increase is to increase your billable rate.

Second, no matter how long you work for the company, at any given moment there exists a maximum amount you can be paid before your company loses money.

It is pretty standard to get paid between 25 and 33 percent of your billable rate. Any less than that probably indicates a boss that is ripping you off royally.

Re:Mathematics (1)

Qui-Gon (62090) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787724)

EXACTLY! Thank you.

Re:Mathematics (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4787824)

That's fine as long as the higher-ups are getting paid what they are worth. That can throw a wrench into the whole deal by skewing profits their way.

Stupid article (5, Informative)

johnburton (21870) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787682)

The article makes it sound like having to learn new things to keep up is a bad thing. It's what makes the job better than most.

Poor geeks ... (5, Insightful)

Etyenne (4915) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787683)

I did both white-collar and manual labor. When you had been carrying brick 12 hours a day for 6$/hour, you don't complain about being lonely and insecure from your climatized office. I'll take my high-paying, challenging and virtually risk-free tech job anyday, thank you very much. Comparing 21st century techies to 19th factory worker is ridiculous self-pity; the author

Re:Poor geeks ... (2, Insightful)

hector13 (628823) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787754)

You have to remember, these are the same people who, a few years ago, got a 100+K/yr "programming" jobs at www.dumbass.com becuase they knew how to make macros in VBA.

When I was in school during the boom, at every coop or internship I had, the IT people were complete morons. Companies hired anybody who had 3 or 4 letter acronyms on their resume and thought they were real programmers.

No reality has set it and these people just don't want to accept that. They want to go back to their cushy jobs surfing the web and eating free in the snack room all day.

A bit of perspective here (5, Insightful)

inode_buddha (576844) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787696)

Spacefem wrote that "we have it easy..." and I strongly agree, based on experience. I have worked in factories for most of my adult life (I'm 35 now)
and I'm here to tell you that it can be quite debilitating. Medically and physically, it becomes quite expensive when your living depends on your good health and you have to take off a week or two for medical problems. In other words, a week or two of no income.

It's not the Golden Era of manufacturing anymore in my part of the US; $25k gross is considered a decent middle-class income here. If you are fortunate to have any financial reserves, they are probably very slim.

It's mentally debilitating; there are no fellow geeks, so it tends to get lonely beyond a certain point. (my answer is to do Linux at home). Certainly, there's little of the intellectually stimulating debate that I love. (I majored in English, with a few years each of Philosophy and Art. Now I'm into networking)

Now for the perspective: I have to wonder how much of this sociologist's observations are specific to the IT industry, or is it all just becoming part of the US corporate ethos? IMHO, business is a very human activity, but the way we go about it certainly isn't sometimes.

Been There, Done That (5, Interesting)

DrDeaf (108321) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787697)

In my experience, the same things are wrong with "Big Labor" as "Big Business" and "Big Government". These common difficulties are rooted in the foibles of human behavior and are spawned by the types that are attracted to the controlling positions.

There is a chance that a "Geek Guild" would be a good thing. If anyone has a chance, this bunch might... However, anyone remember the old FidoNet power struggles?

Anyway, it might be wise to check out the experiences of today's Engineers unions (mostly aerospace as far as I know) as well as study the Guilds of Renasaissance times.

Keep the "Good", avoid the "Bad".

Cheers!

Perhaps time to reconsider definition of work ... (2, Interesting)

LL (20038) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787699)

... in that the concept of employment for life seems to be disappearing (along with corporate loyalty). If medium-term contracts are the norm for non-core technical work, then professional societies are the logical repository of skills/knowledge/ethics rather than code which is effectively leased (despite all claims of IP). The problem is that for guys, their identity is tied up much more with their role ... of which job function plays a major part. How to handle uncertainty, especially with job insecurity in a rapid transition as many white collar jobs disappear under computer automation? This is a big issue in that highly skilled people have probably been underpricing their talents in not factoring in the loss of any pension (especially given the risky behaviour by many corporations) nor any trade practices restrictions (non-compete clauses).

LL

Dockworkers Union was right! (5, Interesting)

Genady (27988) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787705)

I've said that lower trained IT staff, Helpdesk, Support, even SysAdmins need a union for years. Of course if the industry were unionized that would be the end of the 25 year old engineering manager. Then again is that such a bad thing?

I think that thing that everyone is scared of is a Union coming in and telling them that they're relegated to Jr. SysAdmin while the mainframe guys are trained and promoted. People are afraid that they won't be allowed to rise to the level of their competance as quickly as they saw people do during the boom years.

Ultimately any union that is created for IT will be started by IT workers, remember that. It's not like the UAW is going to come in and force their methods of union dirty tricks on the IT industry. Would any of you have a problem with an IT Union that was built by Sage/USENIX, or a like organization? If there actually were an IT union and it had some clout who do you think could be lobbying in Washington against DMCA and the like?

The problem is we all still have some of that cowboy glint in our eyes. "Yeah I can be a CIO by 30, I know more than the doofus sitting in the executive suite does anyway" Grow up a little bit and see that while not perfect, in the face of a declining IT industry a Union is one thing that can give you some power back, on a large economic sized scale.

Re:Dockworkers Union was right! (4, Insightful)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787804)

After seeing the shenanigans the Teachers Union pull I'll never join a Union.

Look at the crap the Unions are pulling with United. UAL has been in serious finacial shape since before the attacks, and now that it's in worse shape, the unions are asking for more and more money.

From what I've seen, all Unions pull dirty tricks. Have you seen a co-worker cry because she's scared to vote against the Union line?

Oh the Teacher Union wants more money, lets park in the spots the poor IT people park in and make them walk a half mile to and from thier cars, that'll make a point.

Screw Unions.

Make an Informed Decision (5, Insightful)

Flamesplash (469287) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787713)

All I can say is that the individual coder is partially responsible for putting themself in such a position. Research the company, talk to the employees. Don't just jump into a job not knowing what the culture is like.

Perhaps the problem is that there aren't enough good companies out there along with the dilution of the number of tech workers and the dot bomb is forcing people to take jobs they otherwise would not.

Long gone are the days of drive up dentists to Yahoo's main offices

Get used to it. (4, Insightful)

hector13 (628823) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787717)

software programmers are often cited as living out the dream of modern flexible working, ... able to work on their own initiative and offered stock options in their firms.

IT people think they have some right to work 4 hours a day and get paid 200k a year. The .com boom is dead, get over it.

The dot.com downturn has added job insecurity to the list of stresses for the workers in the technology industry.

Welcome to the real world; job insecurity and other "stresses" are what all other workers have always faced. IT people are no better. In fact, programming has become more of a commodity than most other fields. If you aren't adding any real value, than you shouldn't have a job. Simple as that.

Re:Get used to it. (2, Insightful)

WetCat (558132) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787751)

Yes. BTW Situation will probably fix itself:
Computer jobs becoming hard, painful and not rewarding ->
Less people coming to CS industry ->
Less options to replace CS worker ->
More options of re-negotiation and negotiation of support. ->
More valuation of a job...
The CS jobs were dempinged.

Re:Get used to it. (1)

hector13 (628823) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787813)

I agree, or at least I hope, that the situation will fix itself. IT people can add value just as well, if not better, than most other professions.

The problem is that there are just too many "IT" people other there now that have no clue WTF they are doing. It will probably take a few years until these people either:

1) realize that the job is not easy as just sitting around and BSing about nothing while collecting a big pay check
or 2) get fired for being incompetent

Likewise, like you said, with jobs looking less cushy, there will be fewer college students going into CS, further reducing the excess supply of IT workers.

Then, hopefully, the better quality IT people that are left will be able to get good jobs.

Blue and White (4, Insightful)

failrate (583914) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787719)

I've also spent most of my career working as a janitor, a factory worker (Chain mail gloves, anyone?), carpenter, or a food service worker. I don't care whether an office programming job is isolated or anything like that. I just want one because I love to program. It's a job that I can do. I'm not a mechanic, and I'm a pretty lousy carpenter, but I'm a half-way decent programmer.

Sign me up for the white collar nightmare.

Survival of the weakest (3, Insightful)

MatrixCubed (583402) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787723)

Sometimes it boils down to the following: in many workplaces you will have employers pushing employees to perform tasks well above and beyond their originally intended workload. The employees do not fuss about it, as they know they can easily be replaced by the saturated glut of equally-trained (or equally-trainable) unemployed or opportunity-seeking individuals.

It's the classic corporate-machine strategy: increase profit, reduce expenditures. Squeeze whatever productivity from employees that you can; if they balk, replace them ... because they ARE replaceable.

Three cheers for capitalism...

Geek Union? (1, Flamebait)

FleshWound (320838) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787725)

I thought that being a geek meant that you were smart. If you're smart, why would you want a union?

"Geek Union" seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me.

No need for a union (3, Insightful)

coldtone (98189) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787749)

Unions are best suited for workplaces where employees are simply parts in a machine. They don't have very much knowledge that needs to be communicated to a replacement and new people can be brought up to speed in a very short period of time. A factory worker is a good example.

For people working under these conditions they need some form of group representation, because they have nothing else to bargain with. They can be easily be replaced. Your value as an employee dose not increase the longer you hold the job.

I.T. (and most other jobs) your value to your employer does increase over time. Also your able to become a specialist in an area. (We can't let Johnny go, he's the only one who knows the AS/400). Having a union in this area is a bad idea for both the Company and the Employee.

While you would have easier working conditions and possibly more pay you would lose your ability to specialize. Unions don't want people to become more useful (I.E. learn how to do multiple jobs), they want to hire more people. (Which adds to the union's income) But your job would be secure as long as the company exists. Just keep in mind unions have been known to destroy companies. And forget about having a job you enjoy. Dose anyone really want a government job?

The company loses as well because they are no longer as flexible, and profitable.

As for your boss making too much money form you. Just keep in mind that you wouldn't have your job without him.

Ha ha ha (1)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787752)

Start a union, so I can pay union dues?! Is the guy nuts or what? Not that is my only objection, but the government takes enough out of weekly paycheck, besides I don't mind working the extra few hours - as long as it's not 16 hours a dayin/dayout, does he want all the work to move to India/china with what he's asking.

Yeah, it might be mentally frustrating at times, but come on, no better than factory work? Go to some sweat shops in china if you want to get a full appreciation what it is like to work in crappy conditions, no air conditioning, lunch breaks, long hours PLUS NOT HAVING AN OPTION TO QUIT BECAUSE YOUR A FAMILY NEEDS THE MONEY OR IT'LL STARVE. Some people are just spoiled.

And, how much money the boss makes off my labor. What do I care, if I get a better offer elsewhere, I work there AND hope they make money off me.

US workers are trussed (-1, Troll)

eurostar (608330) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787759)

Looking from here in Europe, US workers appear to be trussed and blinded by the american dream as upheld by US corporatism.
That and the whole population almost genetically raised to consume, makes you guys look pretty lame.
When are you going to get a clue ?

Want out of the "factory"? Become management! (5, Interesting)

StandardCell (589682) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787794)

I wasn't a coder (fortunately), but I was a design engineer. The long hours and social isolation made my life very hard, and I was getting dissociated. Being a social person, I had to change something, and that was to get a business degree (MBA in my case). I got it not so I can wave the degree around, but to add a business dimension to my engineering brain, and boy did it help. I'm extremely versatile, I'm working in a business environment where I not only chase down business with the business portion of my skills, I help define new products for customers with my engineering portion of my skills and my heart. And I always remember the engineers and don't sell them short like so many of the idiot sales guys and managers had when I was the design engineer.

In short, do your best to infiltrate the top ranks now. We may hold a lot of resentment towards PHBs, but with a little tact we can defeat the PHBs like the Mandarin Chinese defeated the Mongols - not by force, but by integrating them into our culture.

I leave you with this quote:
"If you hire someone smarter than you are, you prove you are smarter than they are." - R.H. Grant

Class warfare beats the drums...again (5, Insightful)

prisoner-of-enigma (535770) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787801)

I used to think an awful lot like the author of this article. I was fed up with how stupid my bosses were, how poorly I was treated and paid, and how wasteful I thought the company was.

So I started my own business. What an education that was!

I've found that, as a business owner, I have to work far harder than I ever anticipated in order to keep the company viable. There's a tremendous amount of work going on that employees of a company never see and are rarely aware of, work that has to be done by someone with good management skills. If that work is being done properly then the employees never know about it and they're able to do their jobs.

I have a great deal of respect now for entrepeneurs who risk a great deal to start a new business. It takes guts, patience, perserverance, and more to do that.

Any fool can sit around and bitch and moan about how much they hate their company/boss/workplace/insert-bitch-and-moan-noun- here, but how many of those very same people could effectively run a business, turn a profit, and employ someone else? This is not meant to be condescending, but instead a wakeup call to geeks. If you don't like how someone is doing something, go try doing it yourself. You may find that it's much harder than you first supposed.

factories are NOT like tech jobs. (5, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 11 years ago | (#4787805)

I highly doubt that any of you hever spent 10 seconds inside a factory liek a foundry. try running a snag grinder for 8 hours a day lifting and holding against a high speed grinding wheel a 10-50 pound casting... watching that weekly some of workers you eat lunch with go to the hospital and lose fingers, hands feet or a leg due to accidents.. or watch a newly installed snag grinder grinding wheel explode and kill a foreman. Or how about watch a pouring ladel run out (the term used when the molten metal inside finally ate through the ladel and is gushing 3000 degree metal all over the workers and floor) and severly burn 5 people.

Sorry, but none of you have a clue what it's like in the real world. fortunately I was one of those that did the grunt work whil I attended college full time. so I got to live the live that I never ever would wish on the worst of my enemies. Yes some places in the tech industry suck, with bosses that are basically robbing everyone blind to keep his ferarri detailed... but... you can always work elsewhere (relocate! what the hell are you still doing in your location? if you wont relocate then you're just throwing excuses... or you really dont want a different job.

There are employers out there that care for the employees and recognize that the employee is what makes his business work and profitable.. anyone that doesn't is of course.... an idiot.
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