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Mono Ships ASP.NET server

chrisd posted more than 11 years ago | from the systray-functionality-later dept.

Announcements 407

Miguel de Icaza writes "We have just released the new version of Mono the new version includes a working version of ASP.NET. The release includes a sample web server that "hosts" the ASP.NET runtime (it can be hosted anywhere, for instance in Apache, with mod_haydn). The web features of ASP.NET would not be very useful without the support of a backing database. The new version of Mono includes database providers for Oracle, MS SQL, Sybase, ODBC, OleDB, Gnome Data Access, SqLite, MySQL and of course, Postgres. The C# compiler is now 37% faster due to some nice optimizations on the JIT engine and in our class libraries. You can use it to develop GUI applications using Gtk#. Screenshots for mPhoto and the GUI debugger (which can debug both JITed apps and native applications). "

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407 comments

First post, ahhh yeah. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851928)

first post, biatches! Give it up for Houston Red heads!!!

Re:First post, ahhh yeah. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851938)

Can they move the ball for more yardage than the Texans?

bleh. (2, Funny)

jchristopher (198929) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851941)

Mono? I don't feel well.

Re:bleh. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851949)

You've never kissed anyone and you never will, so you don't have to worry...

Fucking dirty GNU hippies!

I AGREE WITH THIS POST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851968)

In Soviet Russia, mono kisses you!

Re:I AGREE WITH THIS POST (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852084)

That makes fuck all sense. For mono to kiss you in Soviet Russia, you would have to be able to kiss mono in the real world. Given that the damn things are even more microscopic than Dubya's brain, that just ain't happening.

Try "...mono gets infected with YOU!" instead.

Help (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851953)

I am fat and have acne.

kill yourself (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851979)

no other possibility.

/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (5, Insightful)

MagPulse (316) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851955)

It's a weird experience to run the same exe in Windows and Linux with the .NET or Mono runtimes. When Mono supports WinForms (by translating them to Gtk#), so GUI apps written with Visual Studio .NET's GUI builder work on Linux, that will be significant.

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852021)

People are working hard to get Windows.Forms to work. We initially planned to have a Gtk backend, but turns out that Windows.Forms sadly exposes bits from the Win32 API that would be very hard to emulate (or at least terribly painful to debug).

The major problem is the Control.Wndproc method which effectively allows any control to hook up to the Windows message system. This is not a problem for most applications, but many special "effects" in widgets are created by hooking up here and processing the messages here.

To avoid emulating Win32 ourselves, we chose to use WineLib as the foundation for implementing Windows.Forms. Later to match the native look of the linux desktop we will provide the Wine team with patches to use the Gtk rendering engine on Unix and the Cocoa rendering engine on MacOS.

Far from ideal, but its the only way we can guarantee good portability with minimal pain to the developers.

There is now a new momentum to get this work moving, and given that it is possible today to test the various controls in Windows against the real implementation, you do not have to fight the incomplete Windows.Forms code before testing your code.

More details: http://www.go-mono.com/winforms.html (for the Windows.Forms plans and mailing lists)

Miguel

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (3, Interesting)

jchristopher (198929) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852118)

Miguel,

Could you explain why, when I install Ximian Gnome, your software overwrites all the shortcuts in the "foot" menu and replaces them with your own offerings?

This, frankly, sucks. Folks trying Linux are just getting familiar with their systems and the programs that are typically installed. Then they get the bright idea to install Ximian because it looks "friendly", and you come along and take away all their programs.

Keep in mind that most folks won't know how to get those shortcuts back (if it is even possible). Your software is advertised as being ideal for newbies, yet in practice, it is actually hostile. This is typical of open source software, in that your own self-serving interests (promoting Ximian) are placed above that of the user.

In short your software is stupid.

Thank you.

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852342)

Yes, I can explain.

The menu reorganization was actually something that we took quite seriously. The issue that we were facing was that the contents of the menus on the default configuration of Gnome was hard to use, and the organization was the remainings of the work that had been done many years before.

So we actually conducted usability tests on real users to try out Gnome, and perform a number of tasks. We observed them, we interviewed them, and we made changes to the software to reflect the needs of users.

Our intention is to allow Linux to be used as a desktop solution.

We tried our best to make it easy for newcomers, and am sorry to hear that you disagree. But at least you could use this experience to advise new users: depending on their needs maybe Ximian is right for them, or maybe not.

Anyways, you can file a bug report against the problems that you found on bugzilla.ximian.com, they might be worth following up.

Miguel.

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (1)

bromba (538300) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852142)

On similiar note, if I develop my application using Mono and Gtk#, can I run it under Windows? Do I need to install any additional software, or will MS .NET framework suffice?

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852172)

Software developed with Gtk# will run on Windows, you only need to install Gtk# in Windows as well .

(I heard today on the irc channel for mono (irc.gnome.org, channel #mono) that the upcoming 0.6 release of Gtk# will distribute all the files you need for running on Windows as well).

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852284)

That means your native .NET is incompatible to MS's native .NET ?

Re:/home/linuxuser$ mint myapp.exe (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852362)

No, it means that some of the dependency libraries (Gtk in this case) are native applications an not CIL applications, so you need to have the .so files in Linux compiled with C or the .dll files in Windows compiled with C.

That's nice (2, Interesting)

jonabbey (2498) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851966)

Mono is some great stuff, but it's going to take some time before .NET matches up with J2EE on Windows, let alone on the UNIX platforms.

Gtk# is more interesting, I think.

Re:That's nice (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851982)

.NET Doesn't need to match up with J2EE in terms of features or performance, all that will matter will be whether Microsoft's marketing department can outspend Sun/IBM/Bea.

All signs point to yes.

Re:That's nice (5, Insightful)

jonabbey (2498) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852008)

Just like Microsoft is outspending the Apache Foundation?

Sun/IBM/BEA/Oracle/Apache.. Microsoft may well pull it off, but it's hardly a foregone conclusion.

Off Topic (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851972)

http://www.bidstrup.com/

Coudlnt resist.

Re:Off Topic (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4851976)

That bleeding heart liberal couldn't tell his ass from a hole in he ground. He's a gay, atheist moron.

Microsoft down? (1)

krazo (220290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851980)

Is it just me or is anyone else having trouble accessing all of the Microsoft sites? I know this is off topic, but I mean, .Net, Microsoft, Online services, all their sites down, I dunno. Maybe a router between me and them is dead. But I can get just about everything else.

Re:Microsoft down? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852011)

I've been having the same problem.
I can't get to MSNBC, Microsoft.com, XBOX.com, nor can I log onto XBOX Live.

I'm on RoadRunner out of NYC ... you?

Re:Microsoft down? (1)

krazo (220290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852028)

Aha. So, Time Warner has finally done it. They shut down microsoft, at least as far as New York City is concerned. I think that's Steve Case taking matters into his own hands. =)

But yeah, Roadrunner from NYC. I love Slashdot for its prompt service response.

Re:Microsoft down? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852044)

Jeez, I knew the MTA was going to strike ... I didn't realize RoadRunner was going to also.

I'm just waiting for the chaos to ensue when the MTA strike takes place. I was talking to some cops today and they said they were going to be out in force considering the number of pissed off civialians out on the streets trying to hail a cab.

Re:Microsoft down? (1)

krazo (220290) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852070)

Well crap. Now I can't go to work and I can't stay home and play Asheron's Call 2. WTF am I going to do with myself?

Re:Microsoft down? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852087)

You could punch the clown.
That'll kill 5 minutes...

They're back! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852110)

Looks like Jimmy plugged the cable he tripped over back in....

Does Mono build on MacOS X? (2, Interesting)

Rubel (121009) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851983)

I don't see anything about a port for Darwin/MacOS X on the Mono web site. A full Aqua-# project would of course be a lot more work, but it would be fun to see it started in console mode or X-windows.

Has anyone tried building Mono on MacOS?

Re:Does Mono build on MacOS X? (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852050)

Mono today works on LinuxPPC in interpreted mode, but does not work on MacOS X since the calling conventions are not the same.

We started work three months ago on a new JIT engine whose main aim was portability (although the current JIT can be ported, most optimizations and coarse-opcodes had to be reimplemented over and over). The new JIT engine design has two intermediate level representations: a higher level one, and a low-level that can be as precise as required for a target CPU. The funny thing is that the new JIT is actually faster JITing code than the current JIT even with the added layer.

The lower-level layer is actually something we are very proud of, Paolo architected a register allocator and instruction scheduler at the same stage, and we are using the PowerPC on MacOS X as the second platform to target to guarantee this time that the JIT is actually easy to port.

We are hoping to release the new JIT engine in February/March.

Yay Mono team (2, Insightful)

litui (231192) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851985)

I think this is terrific. I know very little about the fine details of coding for .NET, but I understand the significance of this project to the community of open source and non-windows users. Good job folks. Keep it up. =)

Re:Yay Mono team (5, Interesting)

phorm (591458) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852177)

Good thing a:

If we can get a better "forms" implementation on 'nix (windows-like without windows bugs), that would be awesome

Secondly, but verrry important to those who do webhosting, clients requesting ASP pages would be able to run on 'nix servers, no longer requiring special windows dedicated hosts. For those who prefer 'nix servers, and many hosts do, running a windows server in the bunch is a pain in the butt!

If this actually pulls through, I will be amoung many who are very, very impressed.

Bravo! (2, Insightful)

telstar (236404) | more than 11 years ago | (#4851994)

Further proof that more is accomplished through innovation than through litigation.

Re:Bravo! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852267)

More useful stuff. But less money. :-(

Re:Bravo! (2, Insightful)

AlXtreme (223728) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852367)

I would call it immitation, not innovation. But then again, 99% of all innovations are just immitating ones that someone else already had thought up.

I hope for Miguel and the rest that Mono works out nicely, but imo it's just a workaround, and not a solution, to the evil empire (if ya can't beat em, don't join them, just hit harder ;o)

Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims Trap (5, Insightful)

NZheretic (23872) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852001)

Microsoft's CEOs have made it "patently" clear [ffii.org] that they intend to restrict competing .Net implementations by cultivating Microsoft's patents, such as United States Patent Application #20020059425 "Distributed computing services platform" [uspto.gov] [uspto.gov] which covers the design and inter-operation of .NET based implementations.
Although there is prior art examples of individual technologies such as the JVM etc, Microsoft patents such as the one mentioned, define and claim the interoperation of the components, in such a way that any re-implementations will be sure to be covered by the patents. This remains true even for the Microsoft specs submited to standard

In comparison, Sun has granted the Apache and all open source developers FULL access to the specs, test kits and granted the full rights to develop competing products under the JSPA [apache.org] . Sun has also fully pened up the Java development standards process under the new Java Community Process (JCP) [jcp.org] . Even to the point of granting full open source re-implentations of J2EE such as JBoss [theregister.co.uk] ...

JBoss received the green light last week, after Sun told ComputerWire that it would allow all of the APIs contained in J2EE 1.4 to be open sourced. Fleury had expressed concern that certain critical APIs, including Enterprise Java Beans (EJB) 2.1, would be not be made available to open source organizations.

However, Java Community Process director Onno Kluyt said: "Sun's plan with 1.4 is that although it started before JCP 2.5, by the time it ships it will allow the creation of independent implementations. I don't think the APIs are that interesting, because the license that sits on top of J2EE will allow that [independent implementations]".

There those that claim that .NET is open to re-implementation, but until Microsoft make a simliar public legal declaration to Sun's JSPA, any .NET reimplementation represents a pending legal mindfield.

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (2)

throx (42621) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852141)

IANAL, but don't you lose your rights to a patent if you don't aggressively defend it?

Microsoft has publicly admitted their knowledge of Mono through publications such as MSDN and other places. They can't claim they haven't known about Mono, known its aims or known anything about what the project was capable of. I don't see how they can pursue a patent claim now - 12 months later - if my first paragraph is true.

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (3, Informative)

Twirlip of the Mists (615030) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852186)

IANAL, but don't you lose your rights to a patent if you don't aggressively defend it?

No. You're thinking of trademarks. If you let a trademark get diluted in the marketplace, your claim to that trademark grows weaker, or even goes away entirely. Patents don't work like that.

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (2)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852200)

No. That is for trademarks, not copyrights or patents. This is why xerox is a verb but Unisys was able to sue creators of GIF files.

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (2)

ToasterTester (95180) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852187)

Actually MS has a spec' for non-Windows versions of .NET. This is what is to be used for the FreeBSD and Mac versions of .Net that MS is backing alreay. It is a subset of the CLR that needs to be supported.

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (2)

Malcontent (40834) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852381)

Yes but are those specs covered by a patent and will microsoft publicly state they will never pursue any lawsuits.

post it again for the first time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852208)

(gotta ac this, but --)

shameless karma whoring :P

as we see here [slashdot.org] , you already posted this before :)

Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims Trap Saturday November 23, @06:51PM Replies:6 Score:5, Interesting
attached to Portable.NET Now 100% Free Software

an interesting comment though, so i guess i cant get too pissed :)

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852229)

why isn't this JBoss news on the front page of /. ? this is important breaking news... whereas mono.net is .not

Re: Dangerous Because of Microsoft Patent Claims T (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852238)

The patent above does not describe any technology related to the .NET Framework, but instead it seems like it might *remotely* talk about Passport, which is something that Mono is not really involved with.

Interesting comment nonetheless, but the link to the patent might have been to `method to defibrilate cows' and might have been slightly more on-topic.

Mono killed my lover! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852018)

A few hours later, I got dressed and decided to go over to Eric's place,
because I called him a few more times but he didn't answer. As I was
approaching Eric's driveway, I saw a few police cars blocking off the
entrance. I also saw an ambulance parked inside Eric's driveway. Now,
immediately I became concerned and then frightened at the scene I looked
upon. I prayed hopelessly that nothing had happened to my Eric. A lot of
people were standing around just watching something I was trying to see. I
couldn't park too close to Eric's place because the police had that blocked
off. So I pulled over and parked to the nearest spot I could find. I
hurriedly jumped out my SUV to see what the commotion was all about. My
heart was racing so fast, and my knees buckled so much, that I thought I
was going to fall out.

From what I could see as I shakily walked up towards the driveway, Eric's
car was parked across the lawn and I figure he must be home. As I drew
closer, I saw droplets of blood on the pavement. I stopped breathing for a
second or so, because I couldn't stand the sight of blood. I started to
push my way through the crowd calling out Eric's name, but he didn't answer
me. A policeman tried to hold me back and calm me down, but it was
useless. I just got radical and pushed even harder. He let me go and I ran
to Eric's front door. When I got there, I saw a white sheet covered with
blood. It looked like a body was under the sheet, but I couldn't bring
myself to believe that that was Eric's beautiful body under that bloody
sheet.

"Where's Eric?" I shouted tearfully, at one of the paramedics.

"Who are you?" Asked an overweight policewoman.

"Can you help me find Eric." I cried, profusely.

"Calm down sir and tell us your name and relation to Eric." Said the
policewoman.

"Shit! My name is Taylor Hastings and I'm Eric's best friend." I told her
in a shaky voice. "Now can someone please tell me where I can find Eric?"

The policewoman looked at me with so much grief in her eyes and I knew what
she was going to tell me, but I didn't want to hear her say it. My wailing
began to escalate as she began to tell me what had happened to Eric...

"Sir," The policewoman started. "I'm so sorry to be the bearer of such sad
news." She paused again shortly and continued. "Your friend Eric was killed
during a struggle with an intruder early this morning. It appears your
friend met the intruder inside when he came home..."

"Shut up! Shut the fuck up!" I cried, interrupting the policewoman at the
same time.

"Sir, I know this is hard to accept, I'm truly sorry for your lost." She
tried.

This woman was just pissing me off and I didn't want to hear a word she had
to say. I tried to ignore her, because every word that came out of her
mouth about Eric was breaking me down inside.

"Not my Eric, oh my goodness, not my Eric." I wailed. "Why? Why now...."

I couldn't stop myself from loosing control. I just couldn't believe Eric
was dead and I will never see him in this life again. It was no use for the
policewoman to talk to me because my cries drowned out her voice. I dropped
to the ground, shaking in disbelief. It felt like a big piece of my heart
had sunken in. I looked at the form that was under that bloody sheet and I
wanted to pull back the sheet to see if it was really Eric, but I was
afraid to see the lifeless body of my dear friend and lover. Who could have
done such a horrible thing? What did they want from him? I questioned the
police and myself over and over again, but the answers were not given.

As they carried Eric's body out to the ambulance, with the sheet over his
head, it really hit home that Eric was gone forever. I started crying all
over again. The tears was flowing copiously and it I could feel my breath
began to shorten. Oh Eric, why did this have to happen to you? Memories of
the time we shared began to flash across my mind. Especially how I made him
laugh all the time. He was my friend from high school and this was such a
horrible way for him to die. I couldn't get his warm smile out of my
mind. I thought about how my body quivered at his gentle touch and then I
thought about how I would never feel him touch me that way again. I was a
total mess, I didn't who to call or what to do with myself. I just sat on
the pavement, shaking.

This elderly lady came over and put her hands on my shoulder. I knew she
was trying to help, but her words just pierced my heart even more.

"Oh dear, you must have loved him a lot." Said the elderly woman. "Baby,
life is filled with so many heartaches and so much pain. I lost my husband
two months back in a boating accident, and I still haven't recover from
that. I know it's hard to accept death, but we must and find the strength
somehow to move on."

"But he was so young." I said, broken down in tears again.

"Oh baby, death has no respect of persons." She told me. "It comes to all,
young and old alike. But, that's what happens when you use that god-forsaken
OPEN SOURCE software like he was using. Especially that shit from the
MONO PROJECT!"

I cried myself to sleep that night.

What, no COM support? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852027)

Still no support for COM, eh? I guess you open sores zealots are still playing catchup. So sure, you can write .NET but you're all alone. For example, there is no directX native .NET SDK. No windows media .NET native SDK. All that shit still uses COM. Fuck I hate zealots.

Re:What, no COM support? (1)

TummyX (84871) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852162)

uh right. and with com support, directx9 (which still isn't out yet) would still not work on mono under linux.

It's much better to use something crossplatform like csgl [sf.net] (c# opengl bindings).

We're trying to peel off COM reliance here...

Re:What, no COM support? (3, Interesting)

pVoid (607584) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852228)

Why are you trying to peel off COM reliance?

What's the purpose of such a thing?

Are you also trying to peel off CORBA reliance?

Please explain your point of view, because I just can't understand why people are running away from COM as if it were the plague... and into this new swamp that is .NET.

Re:What, no COM support? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852280)

Because it's platform dependent?

Re:What, no COM support? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852292)

Uhhh, isn't that the point of projects like mono? To bring us Microsoft American-made award winning terrorist fighting innovations to unknown alternatives like this lunix thing?

Re:What, no COM support? (2)

pVoid (607584) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852293)

Then why not use Java?

COM is language independant. It's a binary format with a small number of runtime environment support routines... it is not platform dependant. Incidentally, COM objects interacting with only other COM objects are also platform independant.

Platform independance is not a reason to supercede COM.

Re:What, no COM support? (2, Informative)

TummyX (84871) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852308)


Please explain your point of view, because I just can't understand why people are running away from COM as if it were the plague


Um. Because .NET is simply a better environement for writing componentised apps.

COM relies too much on windows APIs, it's not cross platform, it relies too much on the system registry and it only works on windows.

Re:What, no COM support? (4, Insightful)

pVoid (607584) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852337)

COM relies too much on windows APIs, it's not cross platform, it relies too much on the system registry and it only works on windows

Hmmm... Have you used COM before?

STDAPI CoCreateInstance( REFCLSID rclsid, //Class identifier (CLSID) of the object

LPUNKNOWN pUnkOuter, //Pointer to controlling IUnknown

DWORD dwClsContext, //Context for running executable code

REFIID riid, //Reference to the identifier of the interface

LPVOID * ppv //Address of output variable that receives

// the interface pointer requested in riid

);

Can you tell me where you see the registry in there? Even malloc is shielded behind an IMalloc interface for crying out loud. The implementation of the runtime happens to use the registry, but that is COMPLETELY hidden to the actual spec of what COM is.

Re:What, no COM support? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852237)

Flamebait? What cocksucking cum guzzling moderator abused his privilege and marked my cocksucking post down as flamebait? I'm simply laying out the god damned cocksucking facts (colourful metaphors do NOT make the thesis of an argument any less relevant, so suck on THAT, you fuckface moderators! See you in metamod, fuck-faces!)

Anyway, directX is not just about graphics. It provides intrinsic support for audio/midi/video/and 2D/3D graphics. If there was an open source alternative that offered the same, and worked as well as directX does, I'd be there. Basically, you validated my parent (cocksucking) post. COM is not compatible under Linux.

Quite frankly, there's a sizable investment made already in MS-oriented technologies (DirectX for one). It's used by nearly all Windows platform games, and the entire Xbox development. I don't want to have to rewrite my shit not knowing wether it will work or not, just to support another platform that our clients don't use on the desktop. It simply doesn't make sense, cowboy.

The other thing to note is that MONO is not a 1:1 transfer of the .NET framework. It's got much of what's in there, but not all. That means you have to code that much more cautiously if you are already developing on .NET and want to switch over to MONO. It's one thing to start with MONO - but switching is a completely different story. Will I be there when MONO is tried and true? Absolutely! Until then, I go where I've got the best functionality, efficiency and support. But so far, you open sores zealots are way behind the 8-ball here. Let's face it - Windows isn't for everyone - but neither is Linux.

So once again, my parent post stands, and whoever moderated it as Flamebait deserves to be incinerated by a suicide bomber in a tropical nightclub.

P.S. Fuck yourselves and die, you moderator-privileged, zealotted, bearded, unbathed, stinky, open sores zealots!

Re:What, no COM support? (1)

TummyX (84871) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852325)

But if you want to use DirectX from C# then why not just use Microsoft's .NET framework. It works well under Windows and *will* support DirectX. There's absolutely no need for Mono to support DirectX at the moment.

The better thing to do would be to write a standard cross platform .NET API for sound, 3d, graphics etc. I've been porting JavaSound to .NET and there's a C# port of OpenGL.

Anyway, if you want to use DirectX, use .NET.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852033)

I dumped a fat dookie of C#

Amazing! (0)

Dri (16940) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852035)

It's just amazing how Miguel and the hordes of coders he has summon to pull this off. I feel confident that whatever Microsoft and the "bad guys" come up with, the Open Source community will launch a counter attack. Shoot to kill. Kudos to Miguel and the rest of the Mono coders.

Hmm, I think I must bring up C# on my next performance review. =P

No DB2? (1)

oingoboingo (179159) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852041)

The new version of Mono includes database providers for Oracle, MS SQL, Sybase, ODBC, OleDB, Gnome Data Access, SqLite, MySQL and of course, Postgres. ...but no DB2? I guess you could code it through ODBC, but given the native support for other less commonly used databases it's a little surprising. Did IBM do something to piss the developers off?

Re:No DB2? (5, Interesting)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852109)

The volume of database providers in this release is the work of very few but very active hackers: Brian, Dan, Rodrigo, Tim and Ville. It is amazing the amount of code that these hackers pulled in the last two months.

It is easy to know when the System.Data hackers are working, your inbox gets hammered with patches from the mono-patches [ximian.com] list.

You can help us support DB2, but you will have to get your hands dirty and start coding like the crazy hackers that brought all these providers (and Reggie has agreed to contribute his optimized provider as well).

What they didn't announce... (5, Informative)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852045)

...is that this version of Mono also comes with Mono Basic. Just like VB.NET, only Free-as-in-Speech.

It doesn't sound like much, but for porting a lot of business logic to Linux, this is a potentially huge development.

Another thing that's needed to get this project up to par with MS .NET is an IDE. Fortunately, the SharpDevelop [icsharpcode.net] folks are working on that...

So far this project has been very impressive. Kudos to the Ximian folx.

Re:What they didn't announce... (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852082)

An old version of the VB compiler is included in the release, but we did not have time to integrate the new VB compiler patches from Marco, but hopefully those will make it into the next release. There are screenshots of it in windows [sourceforge.net] and with Gtk# [go-mono.com] .

SharpDevelop does require Windows.Forms, if you are interested in getting this superb development environment running on Linux with Mono (it includes Intellisense), you could help with the Windows.Forms porting effort [go-mono.com]

Miguel.

Re:What they didn't announce... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852277)

Why not do it right with a GTK# version of the frontend?

?? Love it or Hate it ?? (0, Troll)

flacco (324089) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852052)

Still can't decide if I love it because it dilutes the strength of MS's .NET server initiative, or if I hate it because it reeks with the stench of Redmond.

Re:?? Love it or Hate it ?? (3, Funny)

thelexx (237096) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852112)

You reminded me of a cartoon I saw in Car&Driver years ago. It had an image of a screaming woman going over a cliff in a car, with the caption "Definition of Mixed Feelings: Watching your mother-in-law go over a cliff in your new Ferrari." Watching Mono develop is the geek equivalent.

That's nothing compared to Parrot (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852067)

The Mono project and Parrot project began at roughly the same time - and look at all the things Parrot has that Mono doesn't: a "life" sample program as well as mops.pasm. Object support and threads are just overrated! I want raw VM speed at all costs - even if I can't run any real-world applications. Perhaps by next year Parrot will even have working exceptions. Parrot in 2010 WooHoo!!
Now where can I get me one of them free money Perl6 grants?

Re:That's nothing compared to Parrot (2)

Elian (10270) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852132)

Ah, the "Parrot sucks" troll. I'd wondered if you were going to show up. Ignoring the things that the mono project has had that Parrot hasn't, like a number of paid employees and a full specification, (Microsoft did all the hard work there. And, alas, they did it wrong in a few places) who cares that mono's got more stuff?

Why are you so insecure that the very existence of another project gets you so worked up? Kinda sad, really, that you feel the need to spoil what should be a good brag moment for Miguel and company.

This is Miguel's announcement. Put your bile away and don't spoil it.

I should feel sorry for Microsoft, but... (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852069)

I'm going to enjoy watching the Mono developers catch up, then pull ahead of the Microsoft developers -- on Microsoft's own pet project.

Bye bye lock-in fees for Microsoft. Bye bye forced sign-ups for Palladium.

All those years of putting features and lock-in ahead of quality and good design are coming back to haunt Microsoft. Mono is able to build on top of a modular platform, while most of Microsoft's C# and .Net had to be written from scratch.

That's how the handful of Mono developers are able to keep up to Microsoft's hundreds of .Net developers. Well, that, and the fact that Microsoft's management, up to and including Bill Gates, are probably interfering in the project, especially rushing the early design phase. I think I'd hate working at Microsoft.

Proving once again... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852092)

... that Germans love David Hasselhoff.

ASP.NET or PHP (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852104)

what good is ASP or ASP.NET if we already have PHP you might ask. Well, firstly, ASP is a Microsoft product. If you don't know, Microsoft is a reputable software company that has been in business since 1975. PHP is just some silly freeware ASP clone hosted by a buch of computer geeks and hackers on some obscure website. Clearly a product from a major player in the software industry will be a better product.

Re:ASP.NET or PHP (5, Interesting)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852159)

Well, having ASP.NET is very convenient to move applications and components from Windows and deploy them on Linux or Unix systems. So I think that this is a plus on its own.

In terms of choices, I have to admit that I personally am more of an old school strongly-typed kind of person, and I like programming more with a language that I understand like C#. There is nothing wrong with PHP or Perl, but I feel a bit insecure with them. Like when you have to order water in a restaurant, and you do not want to look cheap, so you end up asking for `bottled water' even when you are trying to not spend a lot of money [1].

Mono and .NET offer a very interesting crossroads: the possibility of sharing components and existing classes independently of the language that was used to create it.

I strongly believe that scripting languages are great for quickly building web solutions, and I would love to see more work between the PHP (and other scripting communities) and Mono. We are certainly interested in helping out.

For instance, the Mono runtime is easily embeddable [go-mono.com] , it could be used in existing systems with ease: for example, allow any language but use the PHP API to write web pages is one option (check the link for a few more samples and the tutorials), or hosting any programming language on Apache (as its done with the Apache/Mono module mod_haydn [sourceforge.net] .

Miguel.

[1] Although as you grow older, you become more cynical, and you just tell the waiter `Get me a glass of the cheapest form of water you have'.

Re:ASP.NET or PHP (2)

scotch (102596) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852199)

I've always heard you weren't supposed to drink the water in Mexico. Maybe the bottled water isn't such a bad idea.

Regards

Re:ASP.NET or PHP (2)

Arandir (19206) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852232)

the possibility of sharing components and existing classes independently of the language that was used to create it.

Can that be any language, or only special languages like VB and C#? If this is available for any language, then why invent a new language like C#?

Re:ASP.NET or PHP (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852268)

The "contract" for language interoperability is called the Common Language Specification [microsoft.com] (CLS) and furthermore, languages are divided in CLS producers, consumers and consumer/producers.

You can think of the "CLS" as a richer contract than say the CORBA IDL or the COM IDL: they define APIs. Now on top there is a virtual machine that allows you to run either native code or "CIL" code that executes on the common runtime [www.ecma.ch] .

There are plenty of CIL compilers (C, C++, C#, JavaScript, Fortran, Cobol, Eiffel, Ada, VB, Haskell) that can produce/consume CLS code.

It is great if your language can produce and consume CLS classes, but its also good it it can consume them, because then a large body of code is available to you.

Miguel.

Re:ASP.NET or PHP (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852371)

Wouldn't the actual "contract" be the Common Type System rather than the CLS?

I haven't looked that hard at the released CLI and see how the thing works downlevel, but I thought that, much as a typelib defines the COM contract, the CTS was the thing that enables marshalling, GC and so on regardless of the language. The CLS is more of a "you have to design your language so and so for it to work with the runtime" kind of thing.

Water (1)

mahlen (6997) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852368)

I always say, "I'll have a glass of your fine tap water." That usually gets a laugh, and some free water.

I agree, strong typing always _seems_ like a less risky way to go (catch problems at compile time, not run time). But I'm starting to do more work with Ruby, so maybe that'll convert me.

mahlen

Sleep is for Amateurs - Barrington Hall grafitti.

Hello Miguel, are you... (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852165)

the same Miguel who writes the lovely commentary at this website [fatchicksinpartyhats.com] ? If so, I am a fan of your work.

yawn (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852170)

.boring

IN SOVIET RUSSIA (0, Offtopic)

Stalyn (662) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852175)

C# has a worthwhile purpose!

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA (-1, Troll)

frenetic3 (166950) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852223)

goddamn, would people PLEASE STOP with the STUPID ASS "IN SOVIET RUSSIA" POSTS..

it was funny the first 1309190349031 fucking times.

*sigh*. ok, carry on

IN SOVIET RUSSIA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852298)

In Soviet Russia "the stupid ass "IN SOVIET RUSSIA" POSTS" stop you!

IN SOVIET RUSSIA (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852306)

microsoft violates mono's patents

GNOME Armageddon (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852178)

this is the sixth text revision done on 04-11-2002.

dear reader the gnome armageddon has started,

first of all i want to clarify that this text was meant to be a source of information otherwise i wouldn't have spent so much time into writing it. belive me it took me a couple of days writing this text in a foreign language. even if you don't care at all for gnome, you may find some interesting information within this text that you like to read. please try to understand my points even if it's hard sometimes, otherwise you wake up one day and feel the need to switch to a different operating system.

on the following lines i'm trying to give you a little insight of the gnome [gnome.org] community. the things that are going on in the back, the information that could be worth talking and thinking about.

many of us like the gnome desktop and some of us were following it since the beginning. gnome is a promising project because it's mostly written in C, easy to use, configurable and therefore fits perfectly into the philosophy of u*nix. only to name some of its advantages.

unfortunately these advantages changed with the recently new released version of gnome. the core development team somehow got the idea of targeting gnome to a complete different direction of users. the so called corporate desktop user. in other words they're targeting people that aren't familiar or experienced with desktop environments. usually business oriented people who are willing to pay money for getting gnome on their computers.

having this new target in mind, the core development team mostly under contract by companies like redhat [redhat.com] , ximian [ximian.com] and sun [sun.com] decided to simplify the desktop as much as even possible by removing all its flexibility in favor of an easy clean simple interface to not confuse their new possible customers. so far the idea of a clean easy to use desktop is honourable.

some of the new ideas, features and implementations such as gconf [gnome.org] , an evil windows registry like system, new ordering of buttons and dialogs, the removal of 90%-95% of all visible preferences from the control center and applications, the new direction that gnome leads and the attitude of the core development team made a lot of users really unhappy. these are only a couple of examples and the list can easily be expanded but for now this is enough. now let me try to get deeper into these aspects.

you may imagine that users got really frustrated [osnews.com] because their beloved gnome desktop matured into something they didn't want. during the time, the frustration of a not less amount of people increased. more [gnome.org] , more [gnome.org] and more [gnome.org] emails arrived on the gnome mailinglists where users tried to explain their concerns, frustrations and the leading target of GNOME.

but the core development team of gnome don't give a damn about what their users are thinking or wanting and most of the time they come up with their standard purl. the reply they give is mostly the same. users should either go and 'file a bug' at bugzilla [gnome.org] or the user mails are being turned so far that at the end they sound like being trolls or the user feedback is simply not wanted. whatever happens the answers aren't really satisfying for the user. even constructive feedback [gnome.org] isn't appreciated.

if you gonna think about this for a minute then things gonna harden that they are directing into the commercial area. the core development team actually don't care for the complaining home user. it's more important for them to reach the customers with the cash. it seems that this has been told to them by the company leaders. everything about gnome has been decided already, a way back or direct communication isn't possible. don't get trapped by sentences like 'we listen to our users'. they listen to you - yes, to make funny silly jokes about you afterwards.

i thought that everything was build up on friendship, build on programming for fun, build on understanding each other. but the reality looks like it's all for the big money. the cash is what matters everything else is a lie and a dream. time for people to wake up.

not long ago they threw one of the most important long year core developer martin baulig [gnome.org] out of team. a guy who worked really hard on getting gnome into the right direction. a nice friendly person who put all his time into gnome. but narrow minded gnome elites such as havoc pennington [pair.com] were responsible that he left the gnome project. the trouble and the pressure that was put on him was to much.

with the new gnome desktop a lot of user interface changes happened such as button reordering [gnome.org] . needless to say that this confuse people who are used to the 'right' button ordering for ages. even our fellow linux guru alan cox [gnome.org] wasn't thrilled about this idea. but the gnome elites such as havoc pennington, seth nickell, calum benson and dave bordoley knew it better. why following the road of any other desktop that exists ? why not doing something that don't confuse their users and still stay usable ? well it seems to be too easy. gnome needs to be different than anything else so they changed the button order which was one of the reasons that users became unhappy. they said that there was a hard fight about this and the decision was made to change the buttons. but i belive they simply copied the behaviour of macos because most of the gnome developers use a macintosh as either laptop or desktop. sad that they forgot to keep in mind that users tend to mix applications and that this will lead into weird button searching and clicking.

but as if this wasn't enough the same people decided that the new gnome human interface guides [gnome.org] were the ultima non plus ultra in human interface guides. the announcement contained informations that the kde usability people got initiated into it. unfortunately the kde people heard about it the first time [kde.org] when seth nickell went to the kde mailinglist which happened after the announcement. you can imagine that they got highly pissed off about this attitude. you can read more on this link [kde.org] . to summarize it, the kde people clarified that gnome should care for their own business.

the problem that came with the new interface guides was, that every little gnome hacker started to become an user interface expert over night. a lot of gnome programs that we like to use matured into a disaster over night. hackers that never programmed correctly for their life started to blindly follow the hype of simplification. for an example look what happened to galeon's interface [sourceforge.net] (pay attention for the last paragraph). even philip langdale a long year galeon hacker got highly indignant by the target that gnome leads and wrote this email [sourceforge.net] to the galeon mailinglist.

here another reason why users became angry. the elite assumes, that the user knows nothing about their system. you find a couple of heavily insulting mails on their mailing lists containing sentences like the quoted ones.

"the user don't know what a window manager is",

"the user don't know what themes are",

"the user don't know what a homedir is",

"the user can't compile a kernel",

"the user don't want to customize their desktop",

"the user shouldn't see preferences which purpose they don't know"

you may imagine that a lot of people are being offended by such lines because it's exactly these gnome users who are meant by these phrases. to read more such lines on the gnome mailinglists, simply click on this link [gnome.org] and grep in their archives. be said that most of these sentences are coming from havoc pennington.

such evil practices shouldn't be tolerated by the users and need to be fighted. u*nix users aren't stupid people. who actually gave havoc pennington the rights to decide what the user wants and what not ? various users [gnome.org] told him that people who use a u*nix like system are well aware of their capabilities dealing with such a complex system. there's a reason why people are switching from alternative operating systems. they want to learn, they want to use the full power of the system, they want to change everything they like.

to top all this, look at the future plans of nautilus [eazel.com] . the current maintainers got the idea of changing the whole nautilus concepts into an object oriented user interface design. you may be highly interested in reading the exact words of alex larsson's vision for nautilus' future direction by clicking on this link [gnome.org] .

to summarize it, it's assumed that the user don't need to deal with his homedir or his whole filesystem because it may confuse him or because he don't understand it. the new concepts of nautilus should be that the user deal with symbols in the nautilus view. e.g. you get a cdrom symbol and by clicking on it you see the directory of your cdrom, you get a photo symbol and by clicking on it you get a list of all your pr0n pictures, you get a music symbol and by clicking on it you get a list of all your mp3's. you don't know where all these files are located because you don't deal with the bottom layer of your homedir or filesystem anymore as mentioned earlier.

the question is why are people that know nothing about their users, that know nothing about correct user interface design destroying gnome ? the users don't deserve all this specially those that backed gnome for all the years. even sun threw a bunch of so called user interface experts together and have them work on gnome. don't forget that sun are the creators of the common desktop environment [opengroup.org] . we don't need another cde clone named gnome. even havoc pennington author of the good user interfaces [pair.com] text isn't able to get his own written software following his rules.

not long ago there was an report about the 'two captains of nautilus' where the reporter (uraeus a gnome contributor himself) reported alexander larsson and david camp. you may imagine that such a report can't be taken serious because it's done by their own people. we here have a saying that sounds like this 'one crow doesn't hack the eye of another crow out'. now you can click on this link [gnomedesktop.org] and read more. it may be interesting to read the replies from various users all over the globe of what they think about gnome and nautilus in general (please pay attention to the listed ip's there). another nice and informative reading can be found by clicking on this link [gnomedesktop.org] .

the fileselector problem was a long discussed issue in the gnome community. finally they came to an solution for this and have decided to go for this [coreyo.net] ugly fileselector instead going for this one [wanadoo.nl] which was developed by a free volunteer for a long time and in general looks and behaves better.

most users have no problems with the idea of keeping things simple and clean. removing some not needed preferences was indeed a good idea but it doesn't stop. people started to remove everything from their apps. you're forced to use dubious programs like gconf-editor which basically works like the windows registry editor, to tweak uncommented preferences. i don't think that this is an advantage. even the possibility to tweak preferences with an editor was taken away with that ugly implementation of gconf. all your preferences are stored in a directory tree with an unknown amount of *.xml files. even if you delete programs their keys are still remaining orphaned in these trees and finding them is like playing trivia. at the end it's worth a discussion if a system driven by a single home user needs such a registry like system. we didn't need such a system for over 30 years but the gnome development team got the idea copying one of the most retarded systems from windows to u*nix. not to mention that the copy is more retarded than the original.

it's a shame to see how such a nice desktop got thrown into the trash by such people. but there is a lot more behind the scenes that i don't know about. everything around gnome is a big marketing strategy. poor people are working the hell out of gnome for nothing and companies such as those mentioned above are getting the big cash. for sure you could say - go and fork gnome - but seriously how can you go and fork gnome ? such a big project which needs a bunch of people to keep the code alive and compatible. well you know it's all about open source the code is signed under the gnu/gpl or gnu/lgpl, you can't own it. even the companies are aware of this. but if you can't own the code - go and hire their developers. you can direct them like puppets in any direction that you - as company - like. exactly this is happening with gnome.

well you could easily come up and tell me to simply not use gnome and let them do whatever they like. well, you are right with that but things are more complicated nowadays. gnome is influencing a lot of third party projects such as xfree86 which recently added a lot of gnome components into their cvs repository. please know that with the next coming xfree86 version you get a lot of gnome components without even knowing it. code like, gnome-xml [xmlsoft.org] , pkgconfig [freedesktop.org] , fontconfig [fontconfig.org] , xcursor and xft2 were mainly written by people who're heavily involved into gnome development. also the gimp is maturing more and more into getting the look and feel of a native gnome application. the cvs version of the gimp has a lot of gnome pixmaps inside and they are heavily working on integrate the gimp into gnome. if not today but the direction is sure and i fear the day this gonna happen.

it's ok that these things exist and it's ok to see xfree86 and the gimp are beeing hacked on. but please think about the people that don't like or use gnome. what about them ? why force them to have gnome components installed on their systems ? why can't gnome go the same way that kde went e.g. doing their own stuff without infecting other projects like aids. seeing more and more libraries and applications that were in no way related to gnome jumping on the pkgconfig boat which's really not needed. look what will happen to solaris, the world famous operating system on u*nix used by big companies and long years experts. they really plan to replace cde with gnome. i know that cde wasn't the best invention of desktops but it rarely crashed and it fits far better into the philosophy of xfree86 with their configuration system than gnome. you know the good old way having your settings defined with .xdefaults and all nice default configurations are going into /etc/x11/app-defaults/ and so on. understandable that the good old way may be blocking the future of applications for multiusersystems - but why must it have to be a windows registry like system that replaces future configuration ?

well to come to an end i personally don't like many of this stuff. i can't stand the button reordering, i don't like the gconf system and even more i don't like the commercial outsourcing of gnome and the bad influence that gnome has on other applications. the bad attitude of some gnome developers is another story since we are all different reacting humans. luckily there are people sharing some of my thoughts otherwise i wouldn't be able to proof my text with so many links. even amongst the gnome developers there are silent voices of people that hate many of these decisions and silently use something else. right now if you checkout the gnome cvs repository every day you find out that the whole gnome development seemed to came to an halt. the contributions to their cvs are poor. while projects such as kde are reaching easily 10-20k commits per month - gnome is getting around 1-2k per month on it's best times. it really looks like the situation of gnome is unclear so it would be better to have it not influence so much other programs or at the end we deal with an disaster.

now i hope this text was informative for you. i hope that you start to think about the situation and the global direction. the situation of gnome is unclear, their target is groggy too since i can't belive that the users that they are targeting ever heard of u*nix or linux. they plan to get out of the 0.05% desktop niche but this will for sure not happen if they continue their current direction and their bad ugly attitude.

GNOME Resistance (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852204)

In the past couple of days a lot of highly interesting Messages arrived on this
Forum. Messages such as 'Why GConf' and 'GNOME Armageddon'.



(It was meant to reflect the GNOMESUPPORT.ORG forum)
here [gnomesupport.org] , here [gnomesupport.org] and here [gnomesupport.org]


First I was a bit
sceptic while reading them but I quickly found out that the writers of these
Messages are totally right in many of their points. This encouraged me to start
the 'GNOME Resistance' because of the ugly attitute of some people here on this
Forum. As many of you probably read - some people have tried to ask and point
out, why they don't like the GConf Registry mechanism by writing some feedback
but people like Iain Holmes (One of the major GNOME contributors) was as
usually able to turn the good Thread into some worthless object by turning
facts, by not listening to users, by ignoring facts and by staying hardheaded
and narrowminded. He also wrote that one of the writers is the ONLY one that
doesn't like GConf but that's definately and prooven not the case. At the end
the Thread got locked because the Forum maintainer was disagreeing as well.


This really confirms what's written in the Armageddon text. Unforunately I have
seen such behaviours on many other Forums, in the IRC-Channel and on
Mailinglists. The developers of GNOME don't give their users a chance to
explain their concerns because it usually ends in flames. It's happening over
and over again. What options do we user actually have ? We are only allowed to
bravely write bugreports to GNOME to help their companies getting all bugs
fixed as quickly as possible. For these tasks we are good enough but as soon as
we want to discuss some serious things, the comments are being ignored. We
can't even contribute one serious comment how we users like to see GNOME if we
don't agree with the developers then we are trolls. We are getting already
decided things thrown infront of our faces that we should report bugs for but
comments are not welcome.


If we start some serious feedback on the only few places we could do it then
our feedback will turn into flames, get Modded down or they get Locked. What
do you people think about all this ? We have absolutely no other possibilities
than writing what we think. If even this isn't allowed then the only solution
for us people is to FIGHT BACK. Comments are not welcome, feedback is not
welcome, we can't even convince the developers because they don't like to
accept compromises.


This encourages me to call all people outside that made the same experience to
stand up and FIGHT BACK, what do we people lose ? We are getting ignored
anyways. Stand up and make GNOME look bad in the public, that's what actually
GNOME is. GNOME 2 had a lot of weird changes that probably will not get changed
with GNOME 2.2 or any future versions. Let's face the truth as much as we wish
things to change, as much as we belive that things will settle down - it's an
illusion. The GNOME that we all liked is no more. Some things with GNOME 2 went
for the better but a lot of stuff went bad.


Thanks for all the development GNOME developers but for me it is no more. I
hope that enough people have the courage to stand up and hit hard back. I know
this all sounds unfair and trollish but what you do to us is unfair too so I
can't see any big difference here.

GNOME GConf == Windows Registry on it's worst (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852218)

Read here [gnomesupport.org] about why people think there are so many disadvantages withing GConf. If you hated Windows Registry then you hate Gnome GConf Registry even more.

Hidden message here (3, Informative)

darkwiz (114416) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852239)

Not to detract from Miguel and the Mono team here, but I can't help but think that there has to be a hidden message in the image he used for a screen shot... I can't quite put my finger on it...

Oh well <whistles>

COM, CORBA, J2EE, .NET... (4, Insightful)

pVoid (607584) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852275)

Can someone please explain why .NET is so good?

Microsoft isn't really good at explaining itself in a rational manner because Bill has his head up his ass, and will not let his technical team talk. Instead his marketing team is in charge of explaining to the world what they do. As a result, .NET to me is something as low-level and small as a binary format specification (similar to COM objects), and as high-level and strategic as 'the end of non-distributed computing, and the emergance of <ooooh>Web Services</ooooh>'. Something that is so broad in breadth is not a clear definition in my books.

Is there anyone out there that knows why .NET should supercede COM or CORBA? Why the functionality of Web Services isn't merely provided as an implementation in COM model?

COM is a beautiful specification and model (so is CORBA - and the two are almost identical in fact)... they are compact enough to actually be usable in kernel mode (WMI providers in Windows are COM interfaces). So what is our eternal ass rash that makes us want to get the better suped up version of the same old shit?

I don't know about other programmers, and how they feel of all of this, but a new standard evolving every 5 years is way to much for me. And as such, I have yet to be convinced I should start learning anything in .NET. What have you, comrades, to say about this? Have you started using .NET, and have seen fundamental differences in principle that make obsolescence for COM a MUST?

On a side note, kudos to Mono for doing this work.

Re:COM, CORBA, J2EE, .NET... (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852327)

I am going to try.

The .NET Framework is actually a new platform for software development, and incorporates many ideas that have been floating around before.

The .NET Framework includes basically three components: programming languages, a common language runtime and a set of class libraries for acomplishing various kinds of tasks.

The framework was designed so multiple programming languages could share the same set of class libraries with minimal effort, and also to allow a large set of programming languages to work together rather than having each one create its own "micro platform".

Now, the .NET Framework offers a couple of ways of doing distributed computing with RPC calls: one is called the Remoting framework and the other one is called Web Services (its not exactly like this, but for now this will work).

Remoting is the closest thing to a CORBA replacement, but its not a great replacement. I personally like CORBA more for plenty of reasons that I hope one day I will write down.

Web Services is the "in" thing to do today, so the .NET Framework has some tools as well for making it easy for developers to write client and server applications using the web services protocols.

Another things that .NET does is it simplifies the development of COM components and the use of COM components (there is plenty of literature on this subject on msdn.microsoft.com).

Most COM developers I have talked to claim that .NET makes them more productive. You wont loose a lot by trying it out, you can always go back to your current tool set if you do not like .NET.

Miguel

Sort of off-topic, but... (2, Redundant)

kir (583) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852311)

...what the heck is .Net? Now, before you drill me as a moron or a troll, hear me out.

I've some vague understanding about what .Net is and what it is supposed to provide (XML web services... OK.), but can anyone point me to a good primer on the matter?

I've never even tried to keep up with .Net (WTF kind of name is that anyway?). I've got enough to keep me busy without having to worry "the next big thing".

Temperature drops in hell (3, Funny)

sanermind (512885) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852322)

It almost seems like blasphemy [go-mono.com] to be able to compile and run Visual Basic in a linux environment. Yikes! What is this interoperable world coming to? What next, a paperclip for emacs? ;)

and (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4852358)

this is better than J2EE in /native/(os of choice) because? or Asembler? wake me when slashdot doesn't have monkie for brains posting lame shit.

Time for the crackers to come (1, Troll)

Ektanoor (9949) | more than 11 years ago | (#4852363)

I believe that under such level of development, soon we will see the real juice of these new technologies. And, soon, we will see how they can whitstand against serious attacks, exploits and break-ins. The more foggy and loose ideology of .NET may bring a new golden era for hordes of black and grey hats. I wouldn't be admired that we will see a revival of the 80's soon. But, then, we had only hundreds. Today, "We are a Legion!..", can only sound as a joke... What will happen when .NET gets loose in the wild is completely unpredictable.
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