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Jordan Hubbard Gives Last Intervew For Apple

pudge posted more than 11 years ago | from the we-need-to-find-someone-new-to-link-to dept.

Apple 122

acaben writes "MacSlash has posted what Jordan Hubbard says will be his last interview for Apple. Apple's Engineering Manager for the BSD Technology Group talks about the new BSDPorts initiative, his thoughts on working for Apple and Apple's Open Source strategy, and how Mac users new to Open Source can get involved and contribute to the community. He also gets delightfully geeky in comparing the differences between Darwin's VM envirnoment and FreeBSD's and explains that Darwin was built with things like working with Final Cut Pro in mind."

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122 comments

Just yesterday... (1)

JohnKFisher (518955) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910257)

And to think, just yesterday Macslash was saying the interview would likely never air. (so to speak)

Re:Just yesterday... (2, Interesting)

acaben (80896) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910341)

I have no proof, of course, but I think maybe the comment yesterday may have spurred action on the part of Apple's PR department today.

I'm starting to love Apple. (4, Funny)

penguin_punk (66721) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910282)

Geez. No offense to any of you, but wasn't it just up until last year when Apple products were only used by designers and retards? Hell, you can't even go for a beer with any OBSD boys without a few Macs pop out of their case onto the table.

I know this is just a rant, but someone's got to comment on Ms. Feiss.... I'll leave that for you. /rant

Re:I'm starting to love Apple. (-1, Flamebait)

eht (8912) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910335)

They still are only used by retards, designers is redundant in this case.

Ms. Feiss being a very good example of a retard.

Re:I'm starting to love Apple. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4910762)

Sorry mate, but insight and humour are rated as troll in the apple section.

No sense of humor alert!

If they were secure in themselves that this was not the case then they could laugh. Oh well...

Re:I'm starting to love Apple. (1, Insightful)

Lars T. (470328) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911695)

If YOU can't see that this post is funny, you must be a retard. QED

Re:I'm starting to love Apple. (3)

Noodlenose (537591) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910441)

Fortunately OpenBSD keeps up a good PPC port, and using openbsd on an Ibook or Ti-book is immensely satisfying.

I am running OpenBSD on a 2 GB partition on my Ibook's HD, next to Classic and OS X, and it works like a charm.

Now, can you blame a fashion concious geek for rather sporting a beautiful portable computer with the most secure OS ever next to the most usable Unix ever?

Dirk

Slash follows slash (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4910395)

and this week on apple.slashdot, we watch as macslash wipes its ass. Have people stoped posting apple stories here and only parot whatever macslash has put up?

Re:Slash follows slash (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4910709)

Where have you been? It's been like this since the "re-design" - you've gotta ove it, it makes the macies SO special. (as in Special Olympics)

Interview text (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4910417)

I'm sorry, but reading several hundred lines of italicized text is making me nauseous:

Jordan Hubbard, Apple's Engineering Manager for the BSD technology group has been kind enough to answer the question you posed awhile ago. (The holdup in getting these posted was not Mr. Hubbard's fault, but a snag in Apple's PR department approving his answers.) Mr. Hubbard has said that this will be his last interview for Apple, and he will no longer have contact with the press. (Note, this doesn't mean he's leaving Apple. He's just not talking to the press as part of his duties at Apple.) We're glad to share his thoughts with you in the answers below.

Filesystems
by marmoset
I know that Darwin supports plug-in filesystems. Is anyone working on fault-resistance (softupdates, journalling) for future Darwin releases? I lost months worth of encoded MP3's to directory corruption last month (I didn't back them up because I had the original CD's, but still, it's a ton of lost effort) and I'd love to see some sort of more robust filesystem support show up.

As you may have noticed, we recently release journalling support for Mac OS X Server.

Building Darwin
OpenDarwin recently released the initial release of DarwinPorts, will the build system used on Apple's Darwin ever build using DarwinPorts? The reason I ask is that I've found the Darwin build system to be insanely difficult, it requires an incredible amount of bootstrapping, uses Debian style .deb packages and is really badly documented.

JH: We are always looking for ways to make Darwin easier to build, but it is too soon to comment on whether DarwinPorts is the right solution.

Second related question. How are the people behind DarwinPorts working with the fink team? It seems like once DarwinPort matures there will be a lot of duplicated effort between the DarwinPorts and Fink teams? Are Fink's days numbered?

JH: The fink developers have actually been very supportive of the darwinports project and they seem to feel that any project which satisfies the overall goals of bringing lots of useful third-party software to Mac OS X is a good one, no matter what it's called. I haven't seen any real duplicated effort yet and expect to see more cooperation between the teams if and when that starts to be an issue.

Third DarwinPorts related question. One of my concerns with installing software from packages is that the way the packages are configured can never satisfy everyone. For example I always build expat before building python so that I can get access to Python's XML parsing functionality. Some people would prefer not to do that to preserve space. How will DarwinPorts be flexible enough to deal with those sorts of situation? Will it only be flexible enough if you build from source or do you see binary packages able to cope?

JH: Well, let me first say that if your build system doesn't cope with building "variants" for things then it's pretty unlikely that your package system will either since *something* has to build the bits you're packaging and it has to know what order to build them in, as you note with your expat and python example. Darwinports has the concept of port "variants" to handle this exact problem, and I expect whatever package system we end up gluing in as a back-end to Darwinports will simply name its packages such that if you want to provide versions of expat with XML and without, darwinports can build and package both. Then it simply becomes a matter of having a package management front-end give the user the option of selecting a package name and the variants they want and then use the same name-mangling rules to try and find that pre-built variant. Getting really clever, you might even end up sending a request to some darwinports server asking it to build you a custom package on the fly and send it back. It's probably still faster to have a dual XServe on the net build a package for you, even with others contending for the resource, than building it yourself on a G3/233 or something. With proper caching of pre-built packages, you wouldn't even need to compile stuff on the server all that often and this is obviously an area ripe for exploration.

Kernel level clustering?
by jessemckinney
Hello, Is there going to be clustering in some of the next builds? I would love to see OS X be able to cluster with any other mac on my lan. Can you imagine the possibilities?

JH: I'm not involved with any of that, so I really can't comment.

Working for Apple
by Anonymous Coward
Is your job at Apple what you thought it would be? What has been the greatest surprise?

JH: I didn't come to Apple with a lot of preconceived notions either way, so I wouldn't say I've been particularly surprised by anything here. If anything has been a surprise to me, it's been the degree to which people outside of Apple seem to care so intensely about what we're up to and where we're going.

What do the other *BSDs get out of Darwin?
by chrischow
We know the benefits of using *BSD code to improve Darwin and with it OSX but what about the other direction? How have FreeBSD and co. benefited (if at all) from Apple/Darwin development?

JH: Some patches and test suites have already made it across from Mac OS X into FreeBSD, one test suite in particular (a filesystem exerciser) being very useful to Matt Dillon and others in finding bugs in FreeBSD's NFS code and even in UFS's soft updates feature. There's also the PR angle, obviously, since it certainly doesn't hurt FreeBSD at all to get prominent mention in some of Apple's keynotes. Finally, given BSD's historic focus on the server room, having the whole "Unix on the desktop" issue actually getting quite a bit of positive spin for a change isn't hurting the Unix cause in general at all.

Mac OS X has done a tremendous amount to make the very idea of Unix on the desktop credible again and undoing a lot of damage which Unix did to itself back in the 1980's during the Unix/GUI wars. To be sure, the KDE and GNOME projects have also done a lot of good in enhancing Unix's reputation there as well, but for many users the word "Desktop" is synonymous with "office applications", "multimedia" or "mainstream games" and being able to run things like Microsoft Office, Cubase SX or Medal of Honor alongside traditional Unix applications like emacs For PERL is pretty cool no matter how you look at it.


intro to oss 101
by Snuffub
With the release of Mac OS X millions of less technical users have been introduced in one way or another to open source software. Im sure a good number of them would want to get involved in the community some way but they dont have the technical background to help in the obvious ways, programing etc. What would you say to someone who asked you how they could help out the various projects that are bringing great software to the platform?

JH: I would say the first thing to do is find a project, like opendarwin or fink or any of the dozen or so Mac OS X-related projects on sourceforge, which seems to be doing stuff you're interested in and start "hanging out" in the forums they provide. Reading the dicusssions for awhile will start to give you a better feel for where they seem to need help, whether it's in getting documentation written or doing more testing or helping to evangelize the project and get more developers involved, or whatever. After you have a good feel for how things are going, volunteer for something! You'd be amazed at how many of these projects are desperate for things as "non-technical" as having their web site spruced up or maybe getting a little artwork for the project's mascot (or coming up with one in the first place). It's not just technical work that needs doing by any means and any project with good presentation skills is one which is far more likely to be successful.

Advanced Security Features; Other Stuff
by zarafa
What can you tell us about plans to include some of the current or forthcoming "next-gen" security features from the other BSDs? Specifically, jailNG (http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/jailng/), systrace (http://www.citi.umich.edu/u/provos/systrace/), ipfw2, the FreeBSD NATD rewrite, Mandatory Access Controls (from the TrustedBSD project), and similar things? I know those are in many cases emerging technologies, but will Darwin attempt to stay relatively current with them?In a similar but not directly-related vein, what about filesystem improvements like those in UFS2 (softupdates, snapshots, extended attributes, etc.)? Leaving aside the possibility for the moment of a brand-new filesystem, it would just be nice to have a modern UFS...And just for the record, how do you feel about the Darwin virtual memory system, specifically as it compares with that of FreeBSD?

JH: When your grandmother sits down to log in, unless your grandmother is someone like Grace Hopper, the last thing she probably needs to see is a message like "Please enter DSA key to unlock keychain or next passphrase in OPIE sequence." Unlike some other Unix vendors, Apple needs to preserve ease-of-use as a high-level goal while also providing the kind of low-level features that allow more sophisticated users to apply other security policies, especially in server environments. We are in fact looking at a lot of the stuff that the FreeBSD and TrustedBSD projects have done in addition to pursuing various security certification programs which are necessary for certain markets. As to whether we'll adopt jailNG or some of the other mechanisms you mention, I can't say, but we're certainly aware of such things and aren't adverse to incorporating any good ideas or mechanisms which fit in with the higher-level goals I mentioned.

The Darwin VM and FreeBSD VM systems are so different in both scope and purpose that it's actually pretty hard to compare them. Running applications like Final Cut Pro put some really unique demands on a VM system and Darwin's has been designed with those sorts of usage scenarios in mind, whereas FreeBSD tends to optimize for a very different historical area of server focus. It's all a matter of choosing the right resource allocation and quota trade-offs given a certain projected application mix and I think both VM systems have actually done a pretty good job of this.


How Did It All Start?
By Snuffub
everyone knows that youre a leading figure in the BSD community so it's no wonder that apple hired you to head up the darwin project, but how did the relationship start off? Did they contact you early on when they first decided to use BSD? or was it an out of the blue phone call? Either way what were your major reservations when you were first offered the job, given that at the time apple had no track record in terms of their comitment to the open source community?

JH: I was actually the first to contact Apple, though I found them very receptive to the idea of my working there when I did. I'd been frustrated by Unix's historical lack of success on the desktop for a long time, and took it rather personally since I used desktop machines a lot in my daily life and Windows was not my idea of an ideal desktop OS. After seeing FreeBSD grow and prosper for almost 10 years, I also felt that BSD had done an amazingly good job of breaking into the server market and I was very ready to see it take on some new challenges. When I saw the first developer preview of Mac OS X, I knew Apple had something special on its hands and I started itching to get more involved. When 10.1 came out, I called and asked for an interview. :-)

As far as reservations go, I can't really say I had any significant ones. Sure, Apple is a big company and its open source strategy is still evolving, but the fact that it has an open source strategy at all and a real chance to bring Unix to the desktop and in front of a much different audience than that traditionally enjoyed by Unix is more than enough for me. I'll continue to try and play a strong role in expanding Apple's relationship with the open source community, of course, and just seeing how much the Unix community has embraced Mac OS X so far makes me very optimistic for the future.


"Macifying" the unix core?
by Van Halen
I'm wondering if there are any plans to modify the unix core to better handle Mac-specific quirks. Things like using carriage returns instead of newlines. Utilities like vi and less currently don't convert these to newlines, which can be a pain when looking at files created in more traditional Mac-type programs. Another example is file management utilities and resource forks. I think cp, tar, etc should handle resource forks transparently by default. Yes, there's ditto - but that's not a "standard" unix utility. Plus it requires an explicit command-line option. Back when I first got my OS X machine, I setup a crontab to backup my Quicken data using tar to an NFS mounted drive on my FreeBSD machine. It ran happily until about a month later when I needed to restore a backup - and discovered that Quicken stores most of its data in the resource fork, which was left behind! Not good. Are you guys working on anything like this? If not, will you consider it now that I've mentioned it? ;-) I'm sure there are other areas where this can be improved besides these two examples.

JH: This is a tough area since you don't want to change *too* much about what makes Mac OS X a good Unix or interoperability and ease of administration suffers, and that's very important considering how heterogeneous the Unix world tends to be, especially in higher-education. That said, I think there's still a lot we can do to increase Mac-to-Unix interoperability. One example of a great Open Source project that helps in this area is rsync_hfs, hosted on opendarwin.org. It's a careful balancing act to make sure that we do things in such a way that the Unix experience is not compromised in the process of adapting to the Mac traditions, and I think that people are definitely going to see evolution in both directions, with some traditional Mac stuff migrating more towards open standards and some Unix things which have been traditionally unwieldy getting a much-needed face lift.

Needless to say, user feedback is always an important part of making these decisions and I hope both the traditional Mac and Unix communities continue to tell us what they like and don't like about Mac OS X - that's very important to us in setting our priorities in goals at Apple, and that's not just marketspeak, it's true, so keep those cards and letters coming, folks. :-)

[Thanks to Macslash for giving me the opportunity to do this Interview]

Imagine... (3, Funny)

cappadocius (555740) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910501)

Hello, Is there going to be clustering in some of the next builds? I would love to see OS X be able to cluster with any other mac on my lan. Can you imagine the possibilities?

JH: I'm not involved with any of that, so I really can't comment.

So in other words: Don't imagine a beowolf cluster of these things!

Re:Imagine... (2, Offtopic)

Znonymous Coward (615009) | more than 11 years ago | (#4910879)

So in other words: Don't imagine a beowolf cluster of these things!

lol. Thats good but you forgot the obligatory Soviet Russia comment...

In USA: Don't imagine a beowolf cluster of these things!

In Soviet Russia: Do imagine a beowolf cluster of these things!

NeXT clustering happens with PDO's (2)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912189)

Check out PDO's [blackholeinc.com].

Re:NeXT clustering happens with PDO's (3, Informative)

bbum (28021) | more than 11 years ago | (#4915129)

Actually, that was one way that clustering could happen on the NeXT. However, there were others-- a number of others. PDO doesn't really scale well; tends to lead to packet storms. Other architectures are preferable.

There have been a handful of stories that talk about the [very competitive, btw] clustering capabilities of the XServe.

Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4910890)

JH, was it worth it to ditch FreeBSD and have Steve FAT SLOBS EDIT your replies. Look at your soulless stripped cruddy answers.

I think you are owned, you sold out. FreeBSD kicks OS X's so hard, and you have to live with that. You left the better for your CORPORATE masters. HAHAHAHAHA. You really couldn't find a high paying job at a company where you don't have to sell your soul and mind to a company with LAME, inferior, RAIDless, SCSIless ECCmemoryless crap PCs with a junk processor?

I like FreeBSD and thank you for your time on it. I think OS X sucks hard compared to FreeBSD and think you are a pussy for leaving FreeBSD's side.

Now you get to live in shit, you have to be edited by loser apple marketing droids. HAHAHAHAHA.

Your name in history could have been glorious, a PAX ROMANA for the computing age, you could have been a Caesar. Now you are a bitch to Steve Jobs the tantric rude arrogant thief.

Rest in peace, corporate owned puss. I want money too, but my soul isn't for sale like yours is. Traitor to the greater scientific good.

FreeBSD 5.x should be ported to Motorola-un-PowerPC to show you pukes what a real OS is. We already have the equipment people actually use, x86, AMD64, IA64, Alpha.

And about building on a dual Xserve, Wow, how about building stuff on a Dual Xeon 2.8GHz with Hyperthreading - oh wait, you sold out to apple. Or a SPARC? Or IA64 or maybe even AMD64.

SELLOUT.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (0, Troll)

asdfjilk (624622) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911128)

RAIDless, SCSIless

is there a (-1, misinformed)?

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911338)

IDE raid doesnt count fucker. And it doesnt have ECC. And the server coems with IDE disks

SO FUCK YOU YOU DUMB STUPID FUCKING CUNT.

You are -69, Steve Jobs gay lover, fag.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (0, Offtopic)

asdfjilk (624622) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911612)

Should I even reply? XServe comes with scsi raid on a pci expansion card.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (0, Offtopic)

jdera (621238) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911662)

Shhh... don't tell him. Ignorance is bliss, remember? Can't wait for that xServe RAID either... mmm... fibre channel.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911765)

should i tell you? spec mark you machine. ignorance is bliss, LOSER. enjoy the slow PC, fucktard.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4921173)

IGNORE IS BLISS... MMMMMM fibre channel? AND HOW LONG HAS THAT BEEN AROUND? You're still weak in the knees with anticipation when the rest of the computing community has had it running for HOW long? Go back to plah-doh, you were less dangerous back then..

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911698)

Yes, but the FOUR fucking drives IN the fucking Xserve are what? You tell me you fucking ASSHOLE.

THEY ARE FUCKING IDE.

So you can hook up external raid storage to a 1U box? What are you a fucking cunt? And is there a shared storage option for this external 1U storage faciliteis? Dont think so.

You stupid fucking pussy cunt.

And the SPEC marks suck. And the price is high. And there is NO ECC memory, fuck head.

You fucking lover of slow.

And, piss shit. You know that the Mach kernel and its shit fag microkernel design was THROWN DOWN THE FUCKING STAIRS by CARNEGIE MELLON in 1994. HOW ABOUT THAT FUCKERFACE?

YOU LIE. you zealot HAHAHAHAHAHA.

I laught at you. We had one of thoese X serve's in here to test, and we sent it back. it was slow and crash prone. HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

So how does it feel to be a loser on the losing side. Loser.

Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... (0, Flamebait)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911739)

...just can't handle it can you? And oh yeah, it really hurts to be on the losing side. It kinda "hurts" like sex "hurts".

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911804)

hi fat, zit ridden, unemployed, living at home, loser, sexless, lord of the rings trekker star wars fucker. your apple kind are the first to be laid off. the switch campaign is all lies, market share has not changed. most apple hardware users are still on OS 9 because they dont want a fat, fucked up piece of shit forced upgrade operating system on already slow hardware. you are a sad, fat, no talent wanna be loser typing this crap to me in internet explorer. how does it feel to know that. how? how do you like knowing you are the fat one, and im in shape. i get to fuck pussy, you get to fuck yourself to tenticle rape and japanese anime. you get to collect unemployemnt i pay for while i get paid to write this to you, quite a bit more than you were making than an HTML "programmer" before your .com laid you off, you fucking ass. the truth, is sad, for you. ahh. i feel the urge to defecate.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0, Flamebait)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911917)

Dude. Relax. I'm sorry you have something against Apple. If you don't like it, don't use it. I don't know what else to tell you, except that I don't like Anime, never worked for a .com, never have been laid off, never did HTML or web shit, am not fat, and don't use IE. 0 for 7; pretty good. Though I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with Apple.

I'm just a student and sysadmin at a big ten school.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911970)

big ten, yeah, big ten at what? accepting the most GEDs from southern states?

so this explains it. i assumed you were above unpaid loser in a school. so you're sexless at a big ten school? you may not be fat but you must be ugly.

and the Xserve is still a slow rip offpiece of shit and the 970 will be made in a cheap shylock shyster version, you wont see the glorious Power4 in apple hardware, it will a pussy version, for pussy users like yourself, cuntcasket

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (1, Flamebait)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912005)

No, I'm paid quite well, thanks. And yeah, big ten at accepting the most GEDs, exactly. IBM has already specified the PowerPC 970's featureset, and has ALREADY said it will be a PowerPC-family processor that is merely based on the Power4; no one ever said it would be a Power4. And why the fuck would I WANT a Power4 in Apple's class of hardware, at its expense, power usage, and size? The PowerPC 970 could potentially even be used in a freaking LAPTOP! The 970 won't be made in "shylock" fashion; it will be made exactly as is specified in IBM's documentation and as was discussed at the Microoprocessor Forum.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912082)

No, you aren't paid well. Being paid in tickets to LOTR, SW and Star Trek Nemisis don't count as pay, OKAY? Oh, yeah, if its not a big 10 junior college, why don't you say where you work, Schroeder - you fucking oven loving kraut dumbass?

The 970 is fuckin' vapor, ass. Way more than the Opteron is. The SPARC, HPPA, Alpha and Itanium actually exist. So you get a pussy version of a power PC that Intel and AMD will easily whip its ass and Apple morons can continue to pay a premium for slow ass hardware?

Now continue to tell yourself less wattage is a good thing. Sorry, dick. making the world or that god damn linux kernel faster is what I want, and if you are paid quite well why cant you afford the fucking power dissipation? Or servers with SCSI in them? Or ECC for that matter.

You are a weird, cuntcaskety mediocritomaton miasma of festering caramelized dog shit mixed with grey matter in that quagmire cesspool you have going in that vacuous cavern that is your skull.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (1, Offtopic)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912233)

Again, I didn't think it really mattered, but the University of Wisconsin, if you must know. We only have 42,000 students or so. And that's just at the Madison campus. And 25 other campuses with the system. And an academic hospital. Small beans, ya know.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912301)

i had freinds at UW madison. they would probably cry if i showed them this, what the school has become, a nexting ground for pseudo-intellectual mac loving zealots of speak like industry experts as students.

anyways, the hemp festival is always cool, and the the gentics research there is supposed to be excellent.

so, you are one of those driods they hire way below market value in a big school. im sure you very influential in purchasing descisions hahahahahahahaah

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0, Flamebait)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912360)

Yes, genetics at UW is great, biotech at UW is great, there's a significant investment there. #1 public school in R&D expenditure. And the University of Wisconsin has always had a lot of Apple users. In fact, biosciences/biotech is probably the biggest area of Apple use here. You can't walk down a hall in any of the research buildings without seeing labs filled with Macs. The researchers seem to prefer them.

And I don't make purchasing decisions; it's not part of my job. My job is to be a systems engineer; others make the purchasing decisions. I'm merely noting that some of these purchasing decisions are new: the University always bought Macs, but what's new is that sectors that have long-since abandoned Macs, or never considered Apple, are now getting Xserves and Mac OS X/Mac OS X Server. Our datacenter has Apple hardware in it. That would have been unheard of before Mac OS X *and* Xserve. I'm not making these decisions. It *is* happening, however.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912568)

First off. Engineer? You claim to be a fucking engineer? What institution granted you an engineering degree? You took a civil engineering certification test? Did you know Canada has made it ILLEGAL to use the word engineer to describe yourself as one if you don't have the certification? POSER!

Well, now knowing there are a lot of Apple users at the #1 school for R&D makes me not want to hold my breath for a cure for cancer. They are wasting MONEY [see taxpayer, you little student tax draining liability without a real job] on hardware. They were good before every prick had to have an Apple. And almost all the engineering, modeling, statistics software I know of runs exclusively on either on Unix and/or Windows. Particularly things like SPSS. So you must be lying. And I know a few doctors myself. I never recall them pulling the same bullshit that mad men musician's arguments that the audio software is like better on a Mac, dude. In fact, like, dude, there is hardly ANY engineering, statistics software for like Mac, dude. Cool. Think different. Like trying to use engineering applications in SoftPC instead of where they are supposed to run. Cool.

And if I was alumni of UWM, I wouldn't give a fucking penny until you were fired [for faking academic credentials you don't have]and the Mac purchases were justified, particularly the completely overpriced Xserve purchases.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (2)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912716)

First off. Engineer? You claim to be a fucking engineer? What institution granted you an engineering degree?

The University of Michigan. Sorry if that's not good enough for you. No, I'm not a PE, but I don't think I need to be. Now I went back to school for more education. Something wrong with that?

You took a civil engineering certification test? Did you know Canada has made it ILLEGAL to use the word engineer to describe yourself as one if you don't have the certification? POSER!

Well, for one thing, I don't live in Canada. For another, I'm an engineer, both by education, and by title. My University title is Systems Engineer, and the group within the IT division I work for is called "Systems Engineering and Operations". So I'd guess that saying "Systems Engineer" is fairly accurate.

Well, now knowing there are a lot of Apple users at the #1 school for R&D makes me not want to hold my breath for a cure for cancer. They are wasting MONEY [see taxpayer, you little student tax draining liability without a real job] on hardware.

Yes, taxpayer. Of which I am one. Interestingly, you also call students a tax draining liability, when they PAY to come here, not to mention being the entire reason for the University's existence.

And almost all the engineering, modeling, statistics software I know of runs exclusively on either on Unix and/or Windows.

Yes, you're right. But a lot of it runs on Mac, or, more specifically, Mac OS X. You mention SPSS. There's a current version of SPSS for Mac OS X. And MATLAB. And r. And IDL. And Stata. And Mathematica. I could go on. You missed your own point, in fact: much of this software is on OS X, or has come back to the Mac, because Mac OS X is UNIX, at least according to The Open Group, which holds the UNIX trademark.

So you must be lying.

Or you are just misinformed.

And I know a few doctors myself. I never recall them pulling the same bullshit that mad men musician's arguments that the audio software is like better on a Mac, dude.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but many medical school and life/biosciences departments here are very heavy Mac users. The Wisconsin Regional Primate Research Center, one of the 7 NIH supported Primate Research Centers, is almost exclusively Mac. If you're ever here, walk through the Medical Sciences Center, or the Biotech Center, or the new Biochem building, and you'll get more than your fill of Macs. With all the tools to go along with them. In fact, it's hard to NOT see a Mac in many of the research environments here.

In fact, like, dude, there is hardly ANY engineering, statistics software for like Mac, dude. Cool. Think different.

Not true, but ok.

Like trying to use engineering applications in SoftPC instead of where they are supposed to run. Cool.

Nope, that's stupid. But you just dated yourself: if the last time you ever knew anything significant about Apple was in the days of SoftPC, now I see why you hate Apple so much. Connectix Virtual PC has been the only worthwhile emulation product for quite some time, and it's only appropriate for occasional use of occasional applications, as you indicate.

And if I was alumni of UWM,

UWM is UW-Milwaukee. We're just UW.

I wouldn't give a fucking penny until you were fired [for faking academic credentials you don't have]

Uh, ok.

and the Mac purchases were justified, particularly the completely overpriced Xserve purchases.

Well, since I didn't purchase the Xserves, or make the decision to buy them, or have anything to do with the money that purchases any of them, as I said before, I think your problem is with someone else.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912923)

You don't have a degree in engineering. If you do prove it. C- student at best judging from this thread. Your MCSE doesn't count towards being an engineer. You frickin use cp, mv, ping and adduser/useradd at best, that's hardly and engineer.

Headline News: Public university squander precious research dollars to buy candy coated toy computers. Decision defended by Dave Schroeder, taxpayer.

Funny. Mathcad isn't. AutoCAD isn't. Lots of applications aren't. Also, OS X isn't listed in UNIX 93, 95 or 98 workstation or server. Sorry. If you ever didn't buy a SPARC to get to standards compliance, you would be on crack. So your precious little fuckin' UNIX isn't unix. And if I wasn't UNIX, I would hope to GNU, not FuckAppleHackUNIX*.

So, you must be lying.

I have yet to see anyone who is an Apple zealot impress me, unless they made a neat web page or music. I cant imagine industry professionals "learning" on computers that don't exist in the corporations they would work for. I have to insist that you are misrepresenting the fact that Macs are niche/glorified typewriters at UW, not critical pieces of the research infrastructure. Then again, you are a side-liner nerd who doesn't actually grasp the difference between research and work and writing term papers. The student term paper labs don't count.

"Not true, but ok." yes it is. I can name several industry leaders who haven't bothered to port there. Just did at the top of the post. Why model on a slow ass CPU with slow ass PC inspired cards? (answer, purchaser is a fucking retard).

Sorry, when I last booted my Mac (which is got for FREE from a .bomb) with 10.2 running, I gave "Virtual-PC-OSX-5.0.2.sit" a shot. It was crap. And so is running OS 9 apps in OS X, it's a fucking dirty gay hack. I mean even Microsoft was able to bridge the win3x/win9x/winnt platforms far better than this shit. So don't think I don't have a Mac at my disposal, I just don't fuckin use it. 1GB memory, G4-500/1MB, RADEON 7000 card with Quartz ON, fast 7200 RPM ide disk. Slow as fucking shit. If I had paid for it I would be rip shit pissed.

So from fellow "mac user" to fellow "mac user," lets cut the crap. The stuff is fuckin candy assed bullshit. Its overpriced and is under-featured. Windows 2000, Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD clearly kick this pussy OS in the crotch.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (2, Flamebait)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4913073)

Look, there's obviously no way that I can prove to you that I have a degree, and you know it. I'm not going to scan a freaking diploma to prove to a Slashdot AC that I went to school, for fuck's sake.

You know that many at academic institutions have long valued Apple computers as yet another platform that brings value. There have been numerous studies by the normal collection of industry groups, most recently being Gartner, that show that the total cost of ownership of Apple hardware is lower. You know that you can skew those numbers any way you want.

UM CIO Dr. José Marie-Griffiths stated it quite well:

"It is not in the interests of a leading institution to dictate computing platform; Apple products bring unique capabilities to the campus, just as 'WinTel' and UNIX systems do, and to limit choice of selection, limits opportunity and, ultimately, limits achievement. ITCS has no plans to deviate from its even-handed support for Macintosh and Windows computing."

But all of that doesn't really matter: all we're having now is the classic Mac vs. PC argument, which can't be won. Or rather, the PC side will think that, implicitly, it always wins since there are more PCs.

And Mac OS X is UNIX; this has been beaten to death by many others, i.e., UNIX vs. Unix vs. UN*X vs. Linux etc etc etc. Mac OS X conforms to the Single UNIX Specification:

http://unix.org/what_is_unix/single_unix_specifi ca tion.html

And yes, a lot of applications aren't on Mac. That has been the Mac's "problem" for almost 20 years. Except people seem to do just fine with the Mac platform, no? I'm sure there's a ton of machines, of all types, that are used as glorified typewriters, or purely MS Office machines. But there are many, many faculty members and researchers who would consider their machines critical to their work. Could they all be Windows boxes? Sure. Could we force people to use platforms they don't want to use? Sure. But as a leading research university, I don't think we feel it's our place to mandate platform to people, especially at a university with a long tradition of faculty governance.

And yep, there's a lot of software not on Mac. If you don't NEED any of that software, then why should someone be concerned with it? If someone wants a machine that they can use productivity software on (i.e., Office, Acrobat, Adobe apps, etc.), as well as doing development, running X11 apps, using GNU tools, etc., and they feel that OS X is the OS where they're most productive, then who are you to complain? CS faculty and grad students who abandoned any hope for Apple long ago are buying Apple, and it's because of OS X.

I'm sorry you don't like your Mac, think it's shit, think it's slow, etc. And dude, that Classic even fucking works as well as it does is amazing. And judging from the amount of times Dr. Watson visited, I don't think Win16 and Win32 were bridged as well as you think. And games on NT or early 2000? LOL!!! Windows XP is probably the first decent modern OS from Microsoft that jumps the gap between a "home" and a "professional/modern" OS. Apparently you've overlooked what is widely viewed as the most successful major platform transition in recent computing history: the transition from 68K to PowerPC, which was pulled off amazingly well. Now Apple's transitioning from an 18-year old legacy, single user OS to a Mach-based, BSD based, follow-on to NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP. I think it went rather well.

As for overpriced, I think the desktop hardware definitely is. Underpowered? Well I guess it depends on what you're doing, but it's clear that PCs won the MHz battle long ago, all MHz-myths aside. And still, people buy Macs to do their work. Interestingly, the Xserves that have been bought or are being considered here are bought because they have been CHEAPER (Sun, IBM) or easier to administer (Linux, Windows 2000) than the alternatives. In some areas it's making inroads. I'm not saying Apple is ready for enterprise, or that it's better than anything else. I just find it surprising that you can see the positive aspects of Windows, Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, etc., but see no redeeming aspects in Apple whatsoever.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4913227)

You can't prove it to me because you don't have it. And if you were a real engineer you would be in a registry, not have a Microsoft PIN number that came with your MCP badge.

Apple has cut its prices to a "competitive" price or even below cost to stymie people into buying shit hardware.

Gartner? Saying TCO is lower with Apples? OMFG. You are a laugh. You know, Linux being FREE and all, and the hardware is a lot cheaper and faster, but hey, whose counting? No pun intended. Link to that article. I want to see it. They have been known to print stupid shit in the past, but that's over the top.

Dr Jose is a fuckin dork. Because he cant use UNIX properly and because he visits porn sites that leave his computer spyware and virus ridden isn't a reason to deprecate Wintel. There are other reasons.

Its not a classic argument. The argument is that real UNIX is better than Crapple UNIX. Real Windows is better than some fucking hippie loser alternative to windows. DirectX, while monopolistic and shitty, is better than waiting for OpenGL ports to appear on Crap OS X.

No, OS X isn't Unix. This argument has been had at nauseum. Especially here. Real UNIX developers wont use it, and it boils down to that. I just makes the Apple loser software developer feel more l33t.

According to this definition of UNIX, you would accept Microsoft's Service for UNIX/INTERIX as UNIX. Its still not UNIX 93, 95 or 98 compliant. Sorry. Ass.

People who have Apple shit are too fucking stupid to know the difference. Which is okay. I suppose its okay to promote mediocrity than to let them know the truth. Somehow I never see a fucking mac tard using a regular expression - for anything.

Funny, OS X doesn't come with an X server, mister Unix. You have to add unsupported shit all over the place to make OS X even half as useful as a Linux distro. And I guess the fuckers who buy Apple don't give a shit about how FAST the fuckin PC is. I would opt for a fast, cheap computer with a real UNIX, say FreeBSD or Solaris, than fuck with this SHIT.

Classic does not work well, you lie. Don't come at me and bark that bullshit like a junkyard dog. And it's slow as ass. And for Microsoft crap, it was better to have a common API or a WOW than to fucking RUN the whole OS again a la VMSARE style like OS X does it. Maybe you fucking Apple drones don't notice things being slow as fucking shit, and half as slow as shit is still slow as shit. And to Winderz credit, Windows NT 3.51+ was very decent at running mixed code. I don't know what this Dr Watson bullshit it, but whatever. You think errors with negative numbers and pictures of bombs or kernel traps don't happen on fucking OS 9 or OS X? PLEASE, give me a fuckin' break. Please.

Now, for your lame use of LOL. I never told you to play games on NT 4, fuck fag. And 2000, well, I can think of about 15 I play personally that work just fine. So say what you want. There lets say 5 games that work better on Win9X than 2000. There are about 5000 games that work AT ALL on windows and not on fuckin' Crapple. And now I know. You just said XP was nice. THAT SEALS THE CASKET. Supreme ass alert. XP is a fucking gay, stupid piece of shit. This proves you like things to be more bloated and slow. XP is very similar under the hood to 2k, but its cluttered with tons of DRM, shit services, fucking asshole UI that looks like that Aqua piece of shit. And Aqua is the MOST INEFFICIENT UI I have ever seen. EVER.

All of Apple's transitions cost Apple developers, and cost the consumer dearly, and every time it nearly vanquishes the company and they have to drag Jobs the IP thief back in to round up the overpaying zealots.

And now we have you admitting problems with Apple again. And yet you defend them. You admit, slow, overpriced, primitive, infant like. Yet you love them, and you cant say why you wouldn't rather have a real UNIX vs. a cheap hack.

I think FreeBSD is the GOD of OSen, and Hubbard betrayed FreeBSD to work for the Microsoft of hardware, Apple. He works for a company that uses Internet Explorer as its default browser and its most popular Office application is Microsoft Office. Amusing.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0, Offtopic)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4913301)

Ok, I fold. You win. :-)

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4920973)

hahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAAHAHAHAHHA.

cuntcasket.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

PMM (68176) | more than 11 years ago | (#4917152)

jesus fucking christ, you sure do have too much time on your hands.

I haven't seen such a piss poor display of argument skills since... I don't know, the last time some cellar dweller tried to bait a mac zealot maybe.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919113)

when the truth hurts, try and smear the truthsayer.

sorry mac fucktard. i might not be artistic but large artillery and a .22 bullet will both kill you, but its more fun to see you be turned into bloody mist.

i owned this thread, fuck. truth hurts you pussy bitch. the truth hurts.

now go stick you penis in those IDE bays in a xserve, fuckin pussy fagot.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

PMM (68176) | more than 11 years ago | (#4919356)

if you call sounding like an idiot owning a thread,
then you sir hold the deed.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919560)

listen dumb mother fucker. you dont get it. no one is running our and junking 1650's and x330's for this xserve. no one. http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0009/22.stock. shtml [macworld.com] Apple's shares drop on Q4 sales concerns by Ben Wilson, bwilson@maccentral.com September 22, 2000, 8:05 am ET

see dumb bitch. and this is the holiday season. i can be fucking FOUL without being an idiot. You are the fucking idiot because you dont anything to refute anything i have said - nothing. At least Dave Mac Nazi Kraut Shroeder had a set of balls, all beit screwed onto a stupid head. You are just a pussy bitch, a fat nerd, sitting there on the border acting liek a cheerleader. Take me on mother fucker, ill blow your ass away in an agument.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

PMM (68176) | more than 11 years ago | (#4919778)

yes your "fat nerd" and "pussy bitch" are sure fire winners in any argument.

truth is, I can't argue with you on this topic because I don't know enough about it.
that and the fact that an argument with you is like arguing with a child over which super hero is better.

get over yourself, you obviously arn't as smart as you like to think you are.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4920958)

look, im not cleaning up my act to convince the likes of you. im probably smarter than i think i am, i tent to be rather modest, but in the face of zealotry, well, the deluge comes forth.

so if you dont know jack fuckin shit about the topic, FUCKING SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH ASSHOLE. I dont need your snarky, worthless anectdotal bullshit, okay fuckermouth?

you dumb fuck infant bitch.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

PMM (68176) | more than 11 years ago | (#4921343)

what anecdotal bullshit have I spouted?
big words for a fool.

the fact is you haven't posited any valid argument, all you have done is put forth your less than useless opinion, no facts.
if you're paying for your education you are clearly paying too much.

hugs etc.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4921714)

Hi fuck. You are coming here, out of context, and you deposit your "wisdom" here, and sound like a complete shit.

About being a fool, cram it up your ass. I'd break your fucking teeth out after I destroy you intellectually.

Of course I argued a valid point. But your juvenile brain is so concerned with the expletives you cant parse the overall diatribe, and you come up with a litany of fucking crap, as if you are some authority or some fucking standards committee.

I have a whole troll full of facts and links below, and there are many, many facts referenced in my discourse with the late Dave Schroeder. [I say late because his argument is so fuckin dead.]

Finished with the old education pal. I get paid good fuckin coin now. Part of the fun on the job is harassing complete, self important retards such as yourself.

Continue on. I'll actually start thinking when harassing you when I see something worth it.

Piss off.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (2)

Listen Up (107011) | more than 11 years ago | (#4916157)


Size doesn't really matter at all. I am from Wisconsin and I have lived here my entire life. I have a BS in Theoretical and Applied Mathematics (Pure Mathematics). I also spent 3 1/2 years as an electrical engineer/software engineer/pure mathematics triple major. I am working as an engineer right now with a track to my Ph. D. in Mathematics over the next couple of years. I went to college in Wisconsin for my BS, although not at Madison, but at Platteville. Madison's graduate programs are very commendable, but the undergraduate programs are completed over-rated crap. The school just has an arrogant, piss ass attitude and (aside from Washington DC) everyone in the city thinks the world revolves around them...no, no, the universe revolves around them. And just a little reality check to Madison graduates...I was picked, along with another Platteville engineer for employment over every interviewee from Madison, and both the owner of my company and my manager are Madison graduates. My bestfriend from high school graduated from MSOE (Milwaukee School of Engineering) with a degree in Computer/Software Engineering and now works at Cray in Eau Claire, WI. He was picked over every interviewee from Madison's CS/SE department for his position. Welcome to Earth, Madison boy.
Now, let's talk about Madison and the UW systems lack of intelligence when it comes to computer systems. For a perfect example, UW-Platteville ran all of its network systems on VMS/VAX and Netware (exceptionally well by the way). There was a point when (and I worked at OIT "Office of Information Technology" for Platteville for a while) the UW system decided to force everyone to move from Compass to PeopleSoft. Solaris or Windows 2000??? Solaris or Windows??? Hmmmm...the "geniuses" at Madison decided that Windows 2000 was the way to go. For almost 2 years it was nothing but a nightmare as our network/database/processing ability went to almost zero. The system is still a huge pig. The performance of the system is absolutely terrible. And the computer systems have never been able to reliably handle the load. Sun would have been a dream. Real good, Madison boy.
It is also mandated, in case anyone has any idea about the entire UW system, that Linux is essentially BANNED across all UW campuses.
I would suggest you get off of your high horse, ivory tower, UW-Madison piss ass attitude and stop comparing college size as a metaphor for penis size. UW-Madison is a big school. Big deal. I have found that most of the best engineers and mathematicians in the world started out at smaller, more specialized colleges and programs where the students matter, not just some professor you never see who is only hired at the university to publish papers instead of teach. As far as UW-Madison is concerned, aside from UC-Boulder or Berkley, there isn't a more flaming liberal, "gotta be different", freak show, than simply walking around most of the campus. If the students of UW-Madison spent as much time studying as they do trying to feel special and unique among ~48,000 students, the undergraduate campus might actually get something great accomplished. Being special and unique is great, but not when it is just for the sake of being different just to be different. Outside of Madison, most companies only care about your education, not what color you died you hair when you were 20, what kinds of parties you went to, how big your school is...all they care about is your grades and your abilities to perform a job. From everything I have seen, UW-Madison is among the lowest on the totem pole of engineering (especially computer engineering) out of there for undergraduate programs in the state of Wisconsin. Sorry, Madison boy

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (2)

kalidasa (577403) | more than 11 years ago | (#4917939)

As far as UW-Madison is concerned, aside from UC-Boulder or Berkley, there isn't a more flaming liberal, "gotta be different", freak show, than simply walking around most of the campus.

Freak show UC/Berkeley may be, but you do know what the B in BSD stands for, no? [joke]Sometimes liberals make pretty damned good software.[/joke]

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919155)

Berkeley took a break for a while being the bad ass progenitor of great computing ware, but XCF seems to be coming back and the tradition continues. The problem is the fucking idiot "protestors" and other asshole wackos make too much noise and they make it more difficult for real problems to be solved. And with all the ugly women and lesbians and fat girls at Berkeley, the computer students need to spend time way far away from the dorms to get pussy.

Is it great today, well, its okay. Was Berkeley the best? Back in the day arguably it was. Would a pile of fresh DoD money help this University far more than a bunch of dirty, unwashed, self hating Volvo-liberal Starbucks fucking pseudo-hippies drawing constant negative attention? Yes.

The other day, Berkeley retard were protecting ROTC students. One of the ROTC girls said something to effect of: "You know, I'm not pro-war and I may not be gun-ho on the Iraq war, but these other students don*t ask us our opinions or know who we are or what we stand for, we are just typecast as evil warmongers."

See what extreme lack of discipline does to these fucking people?

Bezerkely.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919598)

Was Berkeley the best? Back in the day arguably it was.

Back in the day of LSD and the Free Speech movement, you should note. And back in the day of South Africa protests. You see, the protestors have always been there, and everybody still got work done. You think ROTC has it bad now; I seem to remember that when I was in school (at a right wing University here on the Right Coast) most schools still hadn't let ROTC back in from when they were booted off campus in the 60s.

And with all the ugly women and lesbians and fat girls at Berkeley, the computer students need to spend time way far away from the dorms to get pussy.

Man, if that's how you think of women, you'll never get laid.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919788)

Listen. I get pussy when ever. I have a fixed primary source. In fact, when fucking is no longer an issue, you need to find second sources. I mean, this is what sucks about life. You cant be happy with just one source of pussy. And my source is nice, good shape, intelligent, makes me dinner, washes my laundry, treats me nice. But you know what one source isn't enough. My biggest problem is that second source vaginas have disease. I hate fucking with a Jimmy hat, but I cant bring home urinary tract infections. Maybe herpes. Maybe even chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhea. VDs suck. Now I don't want to second source with junkie bitches or fucking bi sexual fucks, so HIV is a stretch but still a concern. So I have to bag it. Bagging it sucks. So I wish they would have "business" trips for sale so I could go to clean women somewhere who were certified disease free and fuck them for a day or two. So if you think I have problems banging chicks you're wrong. I have problem with the logistics of fuckin more than one, nerd.

Back in the day, the hippies didn't attract the nerds into their colony. Nowadays the lines are blurred.

Oh yeah, pussy dreamer, the chicks at Berkeley are pigs. Anyone who cares what those Steinem wannabes think of you is a fuckin pussy.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (2)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4919842)

Dude, apparently you need to calm down too. First of all, I went to Michigan. Second, my current educational endeavors have nothing to do with CS, CE, or ANY engineering, so I could care less. Third, size does matter, because we were talking about things from an enterprise perspective. The more users you have, the bigger the enterprise. I never said better, just big. TSARKON wanted to know where I worked; I told him. Note that I didn't start off bragging about anything, dropping names, or even saying where I went to school, as you did.

Peoplesoft, in my opinion (though I have nothing to do with the project, nor do I know all its intracacies), sucks, and yes, is running on Windows 2000. I can't comment on any of those decisions, because they were made at much higher levels than me, and some at levels outside of the Madison campus. But look around the country: plenty of other schools that "knew what they were doing" also went to Peoplesoft for student information systems...it was just the way the winds were blowing.

And, uh, Linux isn't "banned" on UW campuses. Maybe it is at Platteville, but it's not at Madison. People are free to install whatever they wish (outside of managed environments; i.e., a secretary in geology who has an IT person in her group probably couldn't just up and install Linux on her computer...but anyone in a research or computing setting is free to install and use whatever OSes they wish). And you know damn well how decentralized UW System is. UW System doesn't "mandate" anything, save for some of these statewide initiatives. Otherwise, each campus runs its own IT show.

And I agree about undergrad at large research universities: the undergrad education isn't a top priority (but again, that had nothing at all to do with the conversation). But as a whole, UW-Madison is an excellent institution, and you know it is. And yep, UW-Madison is also a liberal haven, as are many campuses, though I'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion at all. Of course, I've always been conservative, so I am merely amused by a lot of the liberal antics.

And you're just as bad as tsarkon at comparing shit that is completely unrelated. Who ever was talking about computer engineering? The IT department here (DoIT), and at every other school I've ever seen, has no relationship whatsoever to the college of engineering, in any shape or form. And, though I'm not sure how you came to this topic since I never brought up computer engineering (and only brought up "engineering" because tsarkon had a problem with me calling myself a "systems engineer", even though I am one by title, and am an "engineer" by education), but UW-Madison is the one of the highest ranked Electrical and Computer Engineering departments in the nation, and definitely the top program in Wisconsin. I'm not sure why I'm defending it since I never have, or never will have, anything to do with the ECE department, but you seem very adamant, or jealous, or something.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4920971)

you are one wordy mouthy fuckin audible verbose mother fucker arent you?

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (2)

Listen Up (107011) | more than 11 years ago | (#4924327)


I'm not jealous of Madison at all. It's graduate programs are top notch. Their undergraduate engineering programs...well, most people who start out at Madison's engineering (undergraduate program) leave Madison for a better, smaller university or college to complete their engineering BS. Then return to Madison for their MS and Ph. D. programs. I just got sick of everybody from Madison talking about how great Madison's undergraduate engineering is. It's not. Not for undergraduate. Name recognition alone carries a lot of it, I am sure. But, the students heads are too far into the realm of "I'm too great to work at your petty company because I went to UW-Madison" to be good, quality engineers. They don't know how to work well in a small, team environment for one thing. But, I wish to leave it at that. For graduate programs, sure, it is the best in the nation for some of its graduate programs.
I guess I started in on a conversation in which I originally got the wrong feeling about. Sorry. On a positive note, have a great Christmas break, I am sure you will be busy working over the college holiday season fixing enough problems right before college begins session again in January.

Re:Aww, I'm sorry you're jealous... tsarkon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4924456)

im gay and i want to have anal sex with you.

when can we set up a date?

I realize this is a huge troll, but... (3)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911676)

Uh, why don't you just use any SCSI- or FCAL-connected array that you want then? You could use all the same SCSI disk arrays (with hardware RAID, etc.) that you use with any FreeBSD box with any Mac OS X box. And yeah, it doesn't have ECC. It doesn't have redundant power supplies. It doesn't have a lot of stuff. The product is in its infancy! Apple is just BEGINNING its enterprise strategy...and even at this early stage, people who would NEVER have bought ANY Apple hardware before are now snapping it up, for enterprise datacenters no less! For Oracle development! For biosciences computing! And you know what? We're deploying Mac OS X Server, Solaris, AIX, Linux, and Windows 2000/.NET, but NOT FreeBSD.

And since Mac OS X has vastly eclipsed the number of FreeBSD systems in use, or will ever have in use, I'd say that's a "wider audience". Even "wider than a goasemon's asshole", as you put it.

I hope you really are trolling and that you don't believe what you say, because you apparently have no idea what you're talking about. For a good, usable GUI on top of ANY UNIX, BSD or otherwise, Mac OS X/Mac OS X Server is the only game in town. Sure, Mac OS X has a long way to go. But it's done the most for UNIX (and BSD) adoption that any UNIX (or BSD) ever has. And soon, Darwin will be synced with FreeBSD 5.x functionality, so then, by your logic, Mac OS X will be infinitely better than FreeBSD, since it will be everything FreeBSD is (with the exception of the hardware it runs on), PLUS a real productivity OS that normal people can actually use! Then there's the whole Server side of the equation, where I can feel free to update my core OS and do security patches on OS X Server without going through the test-and-backout nightmare my Solaris/AIX/Linux colleagues do. Or reshare NFS filesystems out via SAMBA with the click of a button. And it only gets better.

Hardware-wise, you spouted off a bunch of shit about run-of-the-mill AMD hardware. No thanks, I'll pass. Then you spouted off a bunch of shit about 64-bit processors...you may want to take a look at the IBM PowerPC 970... [ibm.com], which, by many accounts, may trounce the passé 64-bit processors you list.

If you want to stick with the commandline (which has nothing to do with Mac OS X's main markets) or the Gnome/KDE amateur hour, go for it.

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911751)

okay fag, ill bite. you admit, its sucks as a server. you admit. infancy.
no OS X servers on netcraft. no OS X servers running Yahoo, Big IP machine, Juniper routers. You want infant? Try adoption of OS X in the higher end market. And no one said anything about using shit AMD hardware, you stupid moron.

and, retard, you never had a server in your life. i dont know anyone who manages real iron from a GUI on a single server. maybe management software, but most people worth anything at all use the command line, ass. not masturbating on how to make visio and snmp contro the servers, as you seem to be the loser type.

and now, pussy, for non vapor 64 bit power PCs. Where can i buy one? Huh? Where? SPARC, HPPA, IA, Alpha, all can be bought. SPARC being the esiest. Where is there a under 20K powerPC worth buying? Where? And if you think motorola PPC doesnt suck, you have a giant bleeding brain hematoma you fucking cuncasket.

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but... (3, Insightful)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911868)

Yes, it's in its infancy, as you an I both said. Which is precisely why there are no big shops running it. Not to mention the fact that Apple is new to enterprise, and is approaching it very humbly. It will take a long time for people to trust, much less use, Apple server hardware in many environments. Also, the Xserve isn't a high end server, as I'm sure you know. It's for low- to medium-duty use (comparatively), at most. It's obviously not in the same market as high end IBM or Sun hardware, or high-end Intel-based servers.

And yes, we have servers. Tons of them. Literally hundreds of servers running mostly Solaris, AIX, Windows, and some Linux. And now, Mac OS X Server is starting to creep in. When a Sun/IBM/Dell/etc blade server would be appropriate, people are now looking at, asking about, and BUYING and DEPLOYING Apple. And I never said you should do server management at the GUI of a single server. Want to manage Mac OS X Server from the command line? Even via a serial termserver connection? Go for it. Want to manage it with Apple's remote GUI tools? Go for it. Want to manage and monitor it with HP OpenView? Go for it.

As for PowerPC: anyone who doesn't admit we're languishing, and have been for a while, with Motorola is denying the truth. Yes, Motorola sucks now at getting new PowerPC chips and technologies out the door. And IBM's PowerPC 970 will be shipping soon enough...do you have any doubt it will be shipping next year? And when it does, it will be an amazing competitor to all the other 64-bit products. This is obviously a chip destined for Apple's machines, and we'll see it next year.

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but...tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912373)

Here comes everyone's favorite industry expert on "THE ENTERPRISE." He likes that word, reminds him what he watches on TV instead of getting POONANI.

If you think anyone is going to dump FreeBSD for OS X, snicker. Snicker. Yeah,t he switch commercials go corporate.

Humbly? Well, making a break in high density computing might not be started by ripping people off with equipment that is doubly priced, half the speed and not equipped with hardware onboard raid, SCSI bays, and ECC memory. There is the 1650, and there is 1U Xeon 2.8GHz HT machines appearing as well. Leaving Xserve ever further in the dust than it was when the first one was ever used anywhere. Dust.

Now, mister server wizard, Gandalf of watching University computers run themselves, behold, it is he, the wise, that sits and watches AIX, Solaris Windows and Linux servers he didn't set up, doesn't know how to control, run. Forged when the world was young, when man and bird and beast were one, and death was but a dream, there is Shroeder-uber-Gandalf, who makes Merlin look dumb!

Of course Mot PPC sucks. And if Apple had any brains they would have made OS X available for x86. Even I, and ardent hater of Apple and PPC, would have entertained pirating a copy to run on x86, and if it ran better than it does on PPC, which is shit, even Linux on a PPC feels super speedy compared to OS X trash, then I may buy an upgrade copy or something to show my support.

I'll believe the 970 when I see it. And if Apple was smart, they'll sell motherboards. Killing clones killed any hopes for Apple to have a real share of the computing market.

Losers. APPL, losers.

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but... (-1, Offtopic)

ickyfreak (181280) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912682)

you have a giant bleeding brain hematoma you fucking cuncasket.

hehe thats a good one :) mod this guy up and give him a can of VB!!!

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but... tsarkon. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4913031)


What does can of VB mean in this case? I thought you have a giant bleeding brain hematoma you fucking cuncasket was funny as well.

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but... tsarkon. (0, Offtopic)

poo203 (305282) | more than 11 years ago | (#4914254)

Victorian Bitter i.e. beer....and no were not all practicing alcoholics....some of us are experts :-)

Re:I realize this is a huge troll, but... tsarkon. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919607)

I want to fill my rectum with VB beer and hold it and get a beer shit liquid ready and then lean and spray shit diarhea all over Steve Jobs and Dave Schroeder's face.

HAHAHAHAHAH. cuncasket mother fuckers Jobs and Schroeder are.

tsarkon reports CUNTcasket alert, cuntcasket (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911937)

cuntcasket spotted. a flaming cum dumpster cuntcasket motherfucker.

Ran out of arguments...? (1, Offtopic)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911959)

...or words that contain "cunt"?

Re:Ran out of arguments...? tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911986)

no, now im having fun. i won a long time ago, now im showing people this thread, laughing, talking on the phone. its fun.

Re:Ran out of arguments...? tsarkon (2)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912022)

LOL, showing people slashdot threads and having "fun" by not making any cohesive arguments about anything? I guess now we know who the loser is.

If you wanted to actually discuss the advantages, and disadvantages, of Apple's hardware, OS, and strategies, I'd be happy to, though...

Re:Ran out of arguments...? tsarkon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912117)

i said the battle was won. you arent even arguing anymore, just burpleing a frothy baste of your fatehr cum out of your mouth. eructating bullshit.

you like hearing yourself speak i guess.

apple's hardware? overpriced, and inferior target for programming. x86 is better because of being ubiquitous. all the other high end stuff is more scaleable. apple is just - stupid.

Apple OS. OS 9 and below was an industry last place horrorshow. No need to talk of that. OS X picked the wrong kernel, implements 95 APIs, doesnt even get games on it to speak of, and uses a crappy, slow kernel, makes users pay for service packs

Strategy? Make STEVE JOBS rich. If you like that strategy, be my guest, loser.

Now get back to chrintine aguilera on your fucking IPOD, loser.

Re:Ran out of arguments...? tsarkon (3, Insightful)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912316)

apple's hardware? overpriced, and inferior target for programming. x86 is better because of being ubiquitous. all the other high end stuff is more scaleable. apple is just - stupid.

Hasn't the Mac vs. PC argument gotten tired yet? I thought we were talking about Apple's BSD-based OS...

Yes, there's more PCs. A shitload more. So many more that it's ridiculous. So what?

Apple OS. OS 9 and below was an industry last place horrorshow. No need to talk of that.

Sure had a lot of users...*

*Note: just because Windows has more users doesn't mean make the millions of Mac OS users a small number.

OS X picked the wrong kernel

In your opinion.

implements 95 APIs

?

And since one of the APIs is BSD, which you seem to love...

doesnt even get games on it to speak of

You keep contradicting yourself. You talk of Jordan Hubbard as a sellout because he "left" FreeBSD, but now you're obviously talking about Windows, which belongs to the biggest "corporate" titan of them all! And now you're bringing up games...games are a big market, but I give a rat's ass about games.

and uses a crappy, slow kernel

Some people would say that the hardware abstraction is a worthy tradeoff...

makes users pay for service packs Calling 10.2 a "service pack" implies that it has the same content as Windows service packs. Mac OS X had been out for a year and a half with no paid updates. A year and a half. That's plenty within a reasonable timeframe to charge for an OS update. If Apple had called it 10.5 or OS XI, would it have made any difference? And for those who argue that OS X before 10.2 was pretty much a "beta" and Apple shouldn't have charged for it, well, I'd argue that Windows before 98 (in the consumer sector where over 50% of people still run 98) were "beta" too. Additionally, no one, including Apple, forced anyone to run OS X. Everyone could have used, and still can use, OS 9.x if they are so inclined. Mac OS X 10.1.x was good for many, and 10.2.x began the real push to Mac OS X. One paid upgrade every year and a half seems fine with me.

Re:Ran out of arguments...? tsarkon (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4912522)

Hasn't the Mac vs. PC argument gotten tired yet? I thought we were talking about Apple's BSD-based OS... Yes, there's more PCs. A shitload more. So many more that it's ridiculous. So what?
Makes people interesting in developing useful things for a given platform have easy access to hardware, DUH?

Sure had a lot of users...* *Note: just because Windows has more users doesn't mean make the millions of Mac OS users a small number.
How many were forced? Bribed? Mommie the stupid teacher came home and precious junior needed a computer and Mommie gives kids stupid shit like SpongeBobs, Barney and Apples. They all belong in a fucking toy box. Apple and PC companies are cut from the same shit stained cloth. Because Apple is a fucking arrogant, idiotic loser ass PC company, others make them look stupid. Very stupid. When apple's section of the industry is contrasted to the rest of the crap-PC makers, the comparison is even more laughable than any of the major vendors of the PC's.

Is this lame shit notation format trying to make me believe you do footnotes, bibliographies and you are some sort of academic? HAHAHAHAHA.

In your opinion.
No, in fact. If the people who invented it stopped making it because the concept was deprecated by a major university that is also a stronghold for technical advancement in computing, CMU, then it's a good fucking sign. Oh, you're not smart enough for CS at CMU, or they are all retards and you will be next Gill Bates to show them all from UWM. Show us your power, Dr. Evil.

And since one of the APIs is BSD, which you seem to love...
Your overuse of ellipsis is fucking retarded. I'm talking about that stupid mess of diarrhea in the GUI, Cocoa, Carbon, Fake versions of Java you cant get from Sun, Aqua. They have everything you don't want as a home user, namely DirectX, and nothing of value in the GUI for Servers. HAHAHAHA. Not the under the hood stuff. I also laugh that a 3.X userland was chosen for this project gone wrong at Apple. I'm sure MSFT ph33rs APPL. Everyday. And I really wish Apple was good enough to kick Microserf's ass, but alas, they are two bastard bitches in the same boat, fucking the consumer.

You keep contradicting yourself. You talk of Jordan Hubbard as a sellout because he "left" FreeBSD, but now you're obviously talking about Windows, which belongs to the biggest "corporate" titan of them all! And now you're bringing up games...games are a big market, but I give a rat's ass about games.
No, I do not. Apple does. Oh its UNIX, its UNIX its UNIX. Well, not really, its UNXI with HOME USER CRAP! Well, not all the HOME USER CRAP!, but you want this anyway! I mean, no games, who cares!!!!!. ITS UNIX, well a really old fucking shitty version of Unix, but ITS UNIX. So, if you don't like games, why are you fucking around with an OS that is bad at both being a gamer toy and bad at being a server in ANY capacity?

Some people would say that the hardware abstraction is a worthy tradeoff...
They would be wrong. I see kernel traps on OS X machines quite frequently. Sorry. CMU knew when to quite, aashole Jobs cant get over Next. You pay for it, AHAHAHAHAHA. Snicker.

Calling 10.2 a "service pack" implies that it has the same content as Windows service packs. Mac OS X had been out for a year and a half with no paid updates. A year and a half. That's plenty within a reasonable timeframe to charge for an OS update. If Apple had called it 10.5 or OS XI, would it have made any difference? And for those who argue that OS X before 10.2 was pretty much a "beta" and Apple shouldn't have charged for it, well, I'd argue that Windows before 98 (in the consumer sector where over 50% of people still run 98) were "beta" too. Additionally, no one, including Apple, forced anyone to run OS X. Everyone could have used, and still can use, OS 9.x if they are so inclined. Mac OS X 10.1.x was good for many, and 10.2.x began the real push to Mac OS X. One paid upgrade every year and a half seems fine with me.
Either 10.2 was a service pack or they sold 10.X completely and totally UN FINISHED. they made their fag user base beta test the biggest slowest un-optimized home to crap software in the world. I give them credit though, making UNIX and Windows hating assholes beta test a deprecated userland, kernel and a heavy hardware butt fucking UI.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I sit here on a high perch, the lord on high, watching your roach like primitive gestures, and snicker and laugh.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (4, Insightful)

Noodlenose (537591) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911137)

gosh, he does sound hurt, our little AC, doesn't he?

Think of JH's move to Apple as his opportunity to spread the gospel to a wider audience than FreeBSD (of all OS's).

....a much wider audience.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911352)

about as wide as goasemon's ASSHOLE. what the fuck are you talking about sugarbitch?

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911627)

Wider audience? So you would rather cater to tens of millions of idiots than help to create an OS which very discerning people use? You are a fucking moron. FreeBSD has been used all over the place, from heavy iron [Juniper], to some of the biggest servers [Y!], and its coherent, well documented, open sourced and BSD licensed. You sound like a complete fool to be advocating someone of Hubbard's stature selling out to a bunch of fucking Mac idiots who use IE and Microsoft Office.

Pathetic. You. Hubbard. Apple Hardware. Switch, from being heterosexual to fuckin GAY.

Nice job moderators, value QUANTITY over QUALITY, you are exposed as USELESS hahahahahahaha.

So, let me get this straight... (2)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911766)

You expect home/academic productivity users to use FreeBSD as a desktop? Now THAT'S laughable...

Re:So, let me get this straight... tsarkon strikes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911829)

you expect to see wide deployment of OS X as a server. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA. now that's fucking laughable. you fucking unemployed worthless fat stupid fuck.

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (3, Interesting)

jkh (3999) | more than 11 years ago | (#4918759)

I think that's a pretty fair assessment of one of the reasons I went to Apple, thanks.

I did actually change my threshold down low enough to see the original article from that silly "Tsarkon" person and have to say that I haven't laughed so hard in a long time - I should read the trolls more often. He must have an odd working history if he's accustomed to selling his soul in exchange for mere employment (mine is still safely locked in a safe deposit box in Berkeley and Apple has never even expressed an interest in it, perhaps I should be offended).

In any case, FreeBSD remains a great server solution and I've said this from the very beginning. I even took a fair amount of fire during the early 90's for saying that FreeBSD shouldn't even try to focus on the desktop because we had no chance there and weren't the kind of developer community who were likely to ever focus on the needs of the desktop community anyway. The ports collection is great and I'm very proud of it, of course, but that's merely a convenient taxonomy for geeks to use in organizating and installing software, it's not something your mother is ever going to use.

I think history has subsequently proven that being server-centric was exactly the right route for FreeBSD to take, but that doesn't mean I and other Unix hackers had no INTEREST in the desktop, merely that we never saw FreeBSD as a reasonble vehicle for going there. Mac OS X is an entirely different proposition and I think the growing number of Tibooks you see at USENIX conferences every year pretty much speaks for itself. If our anonymous Tsarkon fellow wants to use Windows instead then more power to him (or maybe her - who knows?).

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (2)

kraksmoka (561333) | more than 11 years ago | (#4919433)

. . . odd working history if he's accustomed to selling his soul in exchange for mere employment (mine is still safely locked in a safe deposit box in Berkeley and Apple has never even expressed an interest in it, perhaps I should be offended

that is what we dot-com-go-boom employees deal with on a daily basis, er, well, some of us. the rest of us have moved on with our lives, and spend our time playing with our Macintosh and NeXT machines. ok, well, hey, i do anyway.

now if i could only magically make a NuBus mac into a working, communicating Linux box (sigh).

hey jordan, i will love you forever if you inspire the NuBus machine port of Darwin. but i won't hold my breath :)

Re:Jordan Sold out. Tsarkon reports. JH SOLD SOUL. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919588)

look, you poor, unemployed dumpster diving fucking idiot. anything with NUBUS should be in the fucking trash, moron.

you are a fucking mac zealot asshole. you cant even afford a real computer. and next machines, you fucking fool. next was best run on white hardware. you contrarian asshole.

no wonder your dumb fuckin ass doesnt have a job.

and jordan, you would notice me, the TSARKON, i am right. you know steve meets you in your office and rams you in the ass. you really want to put up with this slow, fuckin lame apple hardware and the pussy zealot user community? cmon jordan, please find a better place to work. think of it this way, you really want inferior linux to win over FreeBSD? and i use freebsd with desktop crap and its not that bad, and OS X - fuck that shit. Im sure if KDE ran IE and Microsoft Office no one would give a fucking shit about OS X, its a bloated fuck.

Hey now we know what Bill Gates...... (0, Offtopic)

poo203 (305282) | more than 11 years ago | (#4914242)

...does in his spare time. He trolls /.

Re:Hey now we know what Bill Gates...... tsarkon (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4918698)

Suck dick cockfucker. You fucking Mac loser fuck

You want to know what Stev Jobs does in his spare time, wishes he was as good as FUCKING REAMING THE ASSHOLE out of the consumer as Gill Batez

Fucking pussy cunt.

"delightfully geeky"? (3, Insightful)

Matthew Weigel (888) | more than 11 years ago | (#4911186)

don't geeks go in for, ah, technical details?

Where was the technical detail in saying "Darwin's VM system has to take into account different memory usage patterns"?

(I enjoyed the article, I guess, but "geeky"?)

tsarkon reports, apple zeal hubbard traitor (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911436)

i have come to put down apple zealots once and for all. i have put together enouhg evidence to end this argument forever. Bruising by Apple Roland Miller III - and other cases against apple

One notable fact concerning Apple's customer base is that it has always tested very highly in the category of brand loyalty. "Once a Mac user, always a Mac user." Apple has depended on this customer loyalty to get it through some rough times. It could always count on a portion of the market to continue to buy Apple products and continue to upgrade with Apple products. Despite (or perhaps due to) this loyalty, Apple has subjected its customers to some decidedly anti-customer abuses.

The latest example of Apple bruising its customers is a doozy. Due to shortages of the higher speed G4 processors, Apple speed reduced its entire line by 50 MHz and kept the prices the same. On top of that, Apple unilaterally cancelled all outstanding G4 orders with instructions that customers should reorder their systems. This has the net effect of increasing everyone's cost for the same system.

Needless to say, this action produced a massive and immediate customer backlash. Based on what I have seen on the net, this uproar lasted a few hours before Apple backed down and started to rejoin reality. After about a day of total confusion and rampant rumors followed by a week of small clarifications, Apple made right and reinstated all G4 orders except the high end 500 MHz model. Those customers were offered the choice of purchasing the "new" 450 MHz model at the original 450 MHz price, which is what should have been done in the first place.

While it is possible for me to see some corporate logic behind the original decision, never the less, this bright idea should not have left the meeting room where it was hatched. It doesn't take an MBA
(obviously) to predict the firestorm that was touched off when this decision was implemented. The only positive thing I can see in this fiasco was the speed at which corrective steps were implemented. The corporation responded to its customer's will and proved somewhat nimble in the process.

Another recent example of Apple bruising was with AppleShare IP 6.2. Apple decided to charge several hundred dollars for this upgrade (the previous being 6.1.) The only problem was that aside from a few new features, it was mainly seen as a bug-fix and compatibility upgrade for MacOS 8.6 (which itself was a free upgrade to 8.5.1.) You couldn't run ASIP 6.1 on 8.6 and you couldn't run the upgrade on 8.5. Again, the reaction was very predictable: customer outrage. Apple listened to its customers and eventually made 6.2 a free update to 6.1.

You may have also have heard about Apple purposefully preventing G3 owners from installing G4 CPU upgrades with a firmware upgrade that officially solved another problem. People were again outraged when the rumor was confirmed by all of the CPU upgrade companies. The outrage keyed on false advertising and speculation that Apple released a Trojan horse.

There were unofficial rumors from anonymous Apple employees that this firmware block will be removed with Mac OS 9. However, there has been no official word from Apple concerning this issue. In the meantime, all the CPU upgrade companies have announced that they have gotten around the block and that their respective upgrade will work fine when they ship.

While Apple has responded favorably to two of these examples, all of these misfires do take a toll. Many people simply will not tolerate this sort of behavior from a major corporation. A company simply cannot afford to make too many of these types of decisions and still remain in business.

Ultimately what can be learned from these examples?

The perception of the "bottom-line" doesn't always coincide with the needs of the consumer resulting in corporate mistakes of judgement. Some of them can be bad enough to make the pages of the Laramie Daily Boomerang. I can't speculate on whether these bad decisions were based on stupidity or on over estimating the loyalty of Apple*s customers or both. Apple has taken concrete steps in most of these cases to defuse the situation. As long as Apple continues to admit that it is wrong and make things right immediately, I will still tolerate being one of its customers.

Until next time. . .

dah dah dah.

Apple tried to block G3 owners from upgrading to G4. Nice guys. PowerForce G4 ZIF

The PowerForce G4 ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) is the only G4 CPU upgrade you will want to upgrade your "Beige" Power Mac G3, "G3 All-in-One" educational model, Blue and White G3's and the Yikes Motherboard Graphite G4's. The PowerForce G4 ZIF is one of the highest performance CPU products when used with "AltiVec enhanced" software. Utilizing the second generation PowerPC 7410 processor ("G4") the PowerForce G4 includes a full 1 megabyte of backside cache running at up to 220MHz.

G4 ZIF Upgrade vs. 800MHz G4 Apple: PowerForce ZIF G4 550/220/1MB Apple G4 733 Price $289 $1599

The Bottom Line: If you already have quite a bit invested in your Power Mac G3, it just makes sense to upgrade the processor rather than opting for the new G4 systems from Apple. Apple has finally eliminated all of the legacy ports with the removal of the ADB port on the new G4 systems, not to mention the removal of the serial ports, and SCSI on the Blue and White G3 systems. So the choice is clear. PowerLogix saves you hundreds of dollars over the cost of buying a new system!

PowerLogix was the first to release a solution for the G4 ROM block for Blue and White G3s.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article2.html?artnum= 60 839
TITLE Firmware Update: Firmware Updates 4.1.7 and Later May Disable Out-of-Spec Third-Party RAM Article ID: Created: Modified: 60839 4/12/01 9/28/01

Read up. Apple is trying to make it harder and harder to use "out of spec" hahahaha memory. Luckily www.crucial.com always works. But imagine, a firmware update that DISABLES YOUR MEMORY.

This is a good start (the buying public is sending a message to Apple, how do the intend to GROW thier market share????????)

http://www.barefeats.com/pmddr.html - new macs slower DDR

SPEC-CPU-2000 (INT/FP)AthlonXP1800MHz 738/624 -- Pentium4 2533 MHz : 893 / 878 -- Power4 1300 MHz : 804 / 1202 -- Itanium2 1000 MHz : 807 / 1356 -- G4 1000MHz 306 / 187 (read and weep http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/ )

SPEC-CPU-2000 (INT/FP)
AthlonXP1800MHz 738/624
Pentium4 2533 MHz : 893 / 878
Power4 1300 MHz : 804 / 1202
Itanium2 1000 MHz : 807 / 1356
G4 1000MHz 306 / 187 (read and weep http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/ )

AthlonXP 1533Mhz
FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE
OpenSSL 0.9.6a speed 5 Apr 2001
137.7
sign verify sign/s verify/s rsa 512 bits 0.0009s 0.0001s 1109.2 14497.3 rsa 1024 bits 0.0040s 0.0002s 252.8 5308.0 rsa 2048 bits 0.0220s 0.0006s 45.6 1635.9 rsa 4096 bits 0.1419s 0.0021s 7.0 468.6 dsa 512 bits 0.0007s 0.0009s 1377.3 1161.0 dsa 1024 bits 0.0019s 0.0023s 530.2 437.7 dsa 2048 bits 0.0060s 0.0073s 165.9 137.7

P3 550MHZ x 2
FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #3
OpenSSL 0.9.6g 9 Aug 2002
39.5
sign verify sign/s verify/s
rsa 512 bits 0.0027s 0.0002s 375.7 4308.0
rsa 1024 bits 0.0131s 0.0007s 76.4 1499.7
rsa 2048 bits 0.0760s 0.0022s 13.2 451.7
rsa 4096 bits 0.5066s 0.0076s 2.0 130.8
dsa 512 bits 0.0023s 0.0028s 433.2 360.6
dsa 1024 bits 0.0064s 0.0078s 155.3 127.8
dsa 2048 bits 0.0212s 0.0253s 47.2 39.5

1GHz Motorola PPC OpenSSL 0.9.6
33.0
sign verify sign/s verify/s
rsa 512 bits 0.0024s 0.0002s 422.7 4565.7
rsa 1024 bits 0.0131s 0.0007s 76.2 1433.4
rsa 2048 bits 0.0850s 0.0025s 11.8 396.5
rsa 4096 bits 0.5872s 0.0092s 1.7 108.9
dsa 512 bits 0.0022s 0.0026s 464.3 387.9
dsa 1024 bits 0.0070s 0.0085s 142.8 117.0
dsa 2048 bits 0.0245s 0.0303s 40.7 33.0

G4 867 / 896MB / 10.1.2
24.2
sign verify sign/s verify/s
rsa 512 bits 0.0029s 0.0003s 346.3 3521.8
rsa 1024 bits 0.0172s 0.0009s 58.3 1062.2
rsa 2048 bits 0.1149s 0.0034s 8.7 293.4
rsa 4096 bits 0.8009s 0.0128s 1.2 78.3
dsa 512 bits 0.0027s 0.0034s 366.6 295.3
dsa 1024 bits 0.0094s 0.0114s 106.8 87.4
dsa 2048 bits 0.0334s 0.0413s 29.9 24.2

Mystery ClawHammer/.
signs/sec verifies/sec
rsa 512bits 965.9 12211.9
rsa1024 bits 205.0 3980.0
rsa 2048 bits 33.0 1093.3
rsa 4096 bits 4.7 288.5

I laugh at you, as i sit on FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT on an SMP box that will whip your fucking gay shit machine's ass. With a Cherry on top, I get to use win2k for crap-software.

I just installed 6C115 OS 10.2 final on a G4 with 1GB of ram. SNORE. Youd think Apple would pick up on the fact they have a slow implementation of Unix on slow and inferior hardware.

Look to IBM Power4 or Intel for salvation, Motorola sucks. Intel has a larger payroll that Motorola makes on the PPC, and it shows, losers.

You make me sick you MAC zealot maggot. I see through you. Your snarky little "hahahaha," your non chalant elitist proto-communist attitude. You make me sick. You want to legislate mediocrity because you are a communist and dont belive the biggest, fastest or most qualified should win. Feiss isn't aout MAC, It is such a stupid fag-ridden ad campaign, I as a Unix and PC user (as well as SPARC and HPPA) have noticed this CRAP. As far as feiss being cute, I would let her suck me off and I would crap on her for a nice Schei*e video. As far as SPEC marks go, truth hurts, doesnt 'it zealot? You like making Jobs richer? Keep at it losers. The day my company fired an x-apple (& x-NEXT) employee was the day things go better around the office - he was a techno nerd jerk, he wanted technology for technology's sake, not because it was useful. He failed to do his job, and we fired him. I hope you contract terminal cancer you snarky little faceless mac zealot fuck!

Project status as of Oct 1994
CMU is no longer doing general system development work on the Mach Operating System Kernel. The reseach goals of Mach were accomplished and faculty interest in OS research has moved in new directions. As a result, suppport for external users of the Mach kernel is mostly just in the form of on-line help files, documents and unlicensed code. The Mach WWW Home Page will direct you to other sources of information.

There is still some work being done at CMU on the Mach multi-server system (Mach_US) and real-time Mach. Information about both of these areas is accessible from the Mach home page. Mark Stevenson may contacted about Mach_US at jms@cs.cmu.edu. The Mach real-time group can be reached at rt-mach-request@cs.cmu.edu.

Development work on Mach is also continuing at the Open Software foundation, University of Utah's Flexmach project, Helsinki University of Technology's LITES system and the Free Software Foundation's HURD system.

Last updated on Oct, 1994 by mrt@cs.cmu.edu

Apple profits halve in Q2

Jobs preducts flatness ahead

By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 16 July 2002, 22:05

APPLE MADE A NET profit of $32 million for its third quarter, almost half the profit it made in the same period last year, and turnover fell three per cent to $1.43 billion compared to the quarter in 2001.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4467

Funny, a BSD platform hanging in the balance because it fails an an MSFT VAR. Its not BSDs fault, trust me, its Apple.

Will Microsoft dump Mac support? http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4485
Two firms slag off each other

By INQUIRER staff: Wednesday 17 July 2002, 12:22

IS MICROSOFT CONTEMPLATING ditching support for Apple Macs? That's the thrust of an article that appeared on Wininfo a day or two back, but if Microsoft is getting out of the Mac market, it's not quite yet.

And all is not well in other respects, reports Mac Rumors, which has posted what it says is an Apple FAQ saying people will have to pay for .mac accounts.

Microsoft has already prepared a press release to time with the Macworld Expo saying that it has announced a Microsoft Office V.x "triple header", this being an announcement which offers better mobility with Palm handheld for Entourage X, a way to buy Office v.X cheaper, and some Windows compatibility with the RDC client.

The Wininfo article, however, quotes Kevin Browne, who runs the Mac Business Unit at Microsoft as saying Apple hasn't made much of an effort to promote Mac OSX, even though there are opportunities.

He is quoted as saying that "if things don't dramatically turn round", it might be Goodnight Mr Chips for Steve Jobs firm.

But the same article says that Apple blames Microsoft for sales problems with Office v.X.

Jobs and Microsoft's Bill Gates have traditionally had a somewhat strained relationship. Is this the beginning of the beginning of the end between the two companies?

Wininfo.

Mac Rumors is providing a blow-by-blow account of what's happening at MacExpo on the site link above - it seems Apple may well announce support for Nforce 2, too.

On the Nvidia site, here, you'll see that Digital Vibrance Control is "currently unavailable on Mac systems", which is more than just a hint, we guess. *

*JOBS KICKS off MacWorld Expo at the Javitz Center at 09:00 Eastern time. There will be a live Webcast using Quicktime, natch, here.

Note: The Dell 1650 and 2650 are both cheaper, the 2650 has SMT, and ECC (and nice linux ecc support as well, it logs ECC errors in syslog). They also include onboard RAID(option via 7899 asic) and a U160 AIC-7899 by default. And you can buy retail CPUs and retail memory for Dells often at half the price without voiding the warranty.

Apple charges $500 per 120GB EIDE drive. HAHAHAHA.

Apple is right about one thing, that Alpha has existed for some time, but have you ever tried actually buying an Alpha? Its hard, I know an engineer who works for
DEC->/Compaq->/HP, and I was dying to buy one, and he couldnt find
anyone to call me
about getting one.

Apple's New 1U servers: Sorry. Doesn't fit well in a market where the Dell 1550/1650 and 2550 and 2650 exist. Sorry. THEY DON'T PUBLISH SPEC numbers. Apple is a dying breed, I just recently tried to revive my interest in them only to be disappointed. The Motorola PPC architecture is embarrassingly slow, and they always are quick to point out the near-useless Altivec and some obscure filter in Photoshop, but its not true. I have a Mac, several PCs and a SPARC at *home*, so trust me people, this box is a bore. And OS X and Open ClosedROM make putting regular memory, disks and CPU upgrades NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE, they try to block it so you have to buy the same part from them 3x the cost. And the Dell 530 Dual P4-Xeon with SMT buries the fastest Mac by almost a factor of two. OS X is no great shakes as of yet because even though most of the porting off of Classic has been done, there are annoying remnants of classic everywhere, including a gamut of Apple utilities. These are notoriously the worst Administrator-unfriendly boxes in the industry, and I have used a few boxen in my time. OS X's Darwin kernel will be sorely eclipsed by Linux 2.6, and 2.4.X is already superior in all the ways I can tell (This isnt to say BSD it bad, but I dont think this OS demands a PREMIUM). I tried YellowDog, Madrake and Debian on PPC as well, and they ran (even with aggressive G3
optimizations) rather
poorly - but interestingly far faster than native OS X.
This is a dying gasp of air from a dead Unix vendor, who has had to turn themselves into a Microsoft VAR (most popular Mac Application: Microsoft Office X). If you have an insatiable fetish for PPC, DON*T. Wait for Hammer. Remind yourself about SMT, and 2.8GHz clock speeds before you go pay for obsolete/deprecated silicon. And the term RISC? Pathetic. I happily resell our product on a 1650 and 2650. We "configured" a Mac box because we were genuinely curious. We laughed at the final price and moved on. This isn*t a troll, or a flame * its reality. What this box does can be done with a 1650, with redundant power supplies, with SCSI and hardware raid build ON BOARD, dual gigabit NICs onboard, dual 1400 MHZ/512cache Tualatin (with SPEC numbers to gauge the performance
by) (2650 gets high clock Xeons), two 64bit/66Mhz slots, onboard video, console redirection, USB, etc. And for half the price. And you can use retail Intel CPUs,(cheap), retail hard drives (if you don*t want to buy the Dell ones at a modest premium), and retail Crucial.com memory (the same memory Dell uses for Half the price). All in all, you get a box, for half the price, with twice the features and performance. And this is coming from a person who doesn*t even LIKE Dell. (I feel I can always build better more reliable systems than most of the PC vendors.) BBBBBBZT. Apple, you lost, you lost, you will always be niche because OS X isn't where it needs to be * on an X86.

TO give a better link for you, since you will have trouble finding this on your own, I'll put you right where you need to be to see Motorola PPC chips are, well, so horrible they wont publish industry standard Specmarks. http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/cpu2000.ht ml

Sorry. Apple. Steve Jobs keeps them in business but his ego is trash. I know people who work there, personally . You pay for his ego.

Ok. Publish your findings. No, I didnt think so. So its as conjective as my assertations, which are based on my whim in addition to evideince (or lacktherof), and the reading of the CPU Report, EE Times, etc. I'm into this industry, and unless you are a zealot, you would know PPC is IBM now. Motorola is in the dirt.

Bzzt. I like NeXT. Ahead of its time, over priced. Darwin is useless, I have 1.4.1, its crap. OS X is nice looking, but it is *very* easy to "piss" the system off, its package manager is so bad compared to RPM I wont even start, and it is, as as what I consider a *nix to be, wholly inadequate and incomplete. Next.

About being content free, thats a snarky, trollish accusation. Now why dont you use Purify on yourself and remove all the said cruft and actually say something in Apple's defense besides naming Mach 3.0+ (like if it was 5.0+ would it make a shit bit of difference.) I hate zealotry.

And about computing pleasure. This isnt fafenugen or a driving experience, dude, its about stuff WORKING, well, for the lowest cost with the cheapest parts. There is no sex appeal in server administration.

Funny, everytime I have gone to a Mac shop they have, for as long as I can ever remember, always, ALWAYS had NT based servers. Unilaterally.

And I saw a few Mac shops in my time in New York.

You know what, not that I like NT, but they worked more reliably (generally Compaq
servers) than the Macs did. (Mostly these days non parity memory and no SCSI anymore, its a PC with horrible Mot-PPC).

Funny. When I run a linux or *nix or NT based server I dont have a .DOC reader installed. Ever. Maybe a PDF reader if I can't figure something out using google, a few nesgroups and other better-than-manuals-and-man-page sources.

For those wondering why .DOC is still a problem, I have noticed that documents shared even between Office X, XP and 2002 are very inconsistent. Its MSFT playing the upgrade me to fix problems game. For complicated layout and manuals, use Framaker or a LaTeX backended application or something realistic.

As far as OS X being "young", I think its probably the oldest feeling Unix there is. Old kernel, old Unix specification (I happen to like what I find in a SYS V style /etc) and old binaries included without gcc in the default install. Its only young in that Apple does not know very well how to serve people who use unix.

I gave OS X a fair shot on a G3 with 1GB of memory. Its good. I wated to use it instead of Microsoft crap for home use, but I wouldnt switch from Win2k after that. They also block CPU upgrade cards, which are expensive. They try to block 3rd party memory. The included keyboard and mouse always sucks. And they try not to partition non-apple drives with Drive Setup, which is the WORST partitioning utility, and Apple's partition maps are screwed up and stupid, and trying to run OS X without classic is diffcult because so many fools still have ported thier stuff to OS X.

I'll stick to PCs for home computing, and think about other vendors for servers.

I gave OS X a fair shake. I have many machines at home and with Gnucleus I was able to get just about every Mac app compiled native for OS X in existence. (Thank god I wont be keeping any of them or buying any of them - try before you buy, people)

I have to say that the total lack of incumbent middleware is horrible with OS X. Its barely an OS out of the box. I hate having to boot from a CD to manage anything, and its multiboot handling is inferior. The Norton set of tools is pathetically weak for the money. Office X is admittedly excellent. But thats it. IE was mentioned not too long ago as rendering incorrectly and having a huge security flaw that is fixed in 5.2.1, but the response from MSFT took much longer than they do for x86.

If OS X was ported to x86 (looks like it has) I would buy it. Period. Forget buying a PPC ripp off machine though.

I noticed on the OS X cd there is i386 directories littering the place and darwin
(hahahah) works on like one computer with an intel chip deep in the belly of Apple, but they are not trying to make Darwin/X86 more appeling than ANY ANY of the other BSDs, they all destroy Darwin in useablility, even when you get darwin from http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/.

I came, I saw, I mastered it, I left. Its BORING.

And as far as IPFW. IPF for OpenBSD is out. and there are no decent APP-firewalls for OS X (Firewalk sucks), Brickhouse is a joke of a GUI.

I am thinking Kerio Winroute/Personal Firewall as a base comparison. The fact nothing analogous exists in Mac OS X land make this platform more unuseable. Also, if Apple like fit and finish on Unix, why dont they make the more complicated things useable througha GUI (like Brickhouse did for IPF). Noo, the only people Apple caters to is those who die thier hair purple and sucks on pacifier and laugh at baby rattles while they are e-tarded from thier last bout with Xtasy after the cool rave for mac zealots.

1 - Nope, not a troll opinion. People trying to name trolls are often themselves trolling by crying wolf.

2 - Pirate, no. I deleted the software. They are liars because they say on their product literature that the product can do things it simply cannot. Do you buy a car without a test drive. NO. Do lots of states have cool-off periods. Yes. Are you are one of those inferior software developers that cant let people try before they buy because you cant deliver on your promise? Or you just and advocate for that because you benefit somehow?

3 - OS X would be easier to eat (its cheap at $130.) if I could use it on a cheap Intel box. Then I could leave it there, tinker with it, do more to make what I like about other Unices available to OS X. I borrowed a Mac G3 (350/1MB cache, 1GB memory, 15GB HDD/2MB
buffer) and * Linux ran better (Debian, Yellowdog and Mandrake * I did try them all) , * GNU-Darwin was near-useless compared to the Linuxes * let alone that pile of garbage apple calls Darwin 1.4.1, and * Mac OS X was horribly slow and clunky. I also find that Administration in OS X is counterintuitive.

Now to address your pathetic complexes. Your quoting is interesting. You were upset about my thread(s) and were looking to pick apart any of my comments. Grasping at straws. First tactic you used was name calling / labeling. Cheap shot. Then you tried to confuse good consumer strategy (protecting my wallet from thieving/lying software developers who often sell your privacy to marketing companies, and fail to deliver proper support for software and force version upgrades that should be called service packs) with piracy, and thus , you were attempting to assassinate my character. I would never, and have never, created revenue for myself, any of the businesses I have worked for with unlicensed or pirated software. I am an advocate for paying for what you use to generate revenue for yourself. I utterly resent your insinuations. Now you try and hit your own self justified home run by saying "Nah, wah, why would you want OS X if you don*t like it wash." I don*t mind the software, I think it is a meritorious endeavor to have a polished UI on Unix. I don*t see the point in cornering it to a pass* , deprecated, slow SPECmarkless overpriced platform. I would appreciate it far more if it would be ported to x86, but alas, Microsoft would pull the Office X plug because it would compete (rather well I might add) with Windows XP. Therefore, Apple is a Microsoft VAR, their existence is to stay afloat and give their shareholders money, not innovate anything useful in the community.

Sorry I wasn*t fooled by them like you were. I resent you, you are alike Mao, Stalin, Hitler. The experts agree, censorship works. If I am a fool, let me foolishness speak for itself * as writing on this wall* * but you are far more sinister than fool, you want to dictate, excise, remove. You want the world to be as you see it, and cannot accept a subjective opinion because you are probably sexless and very pathetic. I resent you.

I RESENT ALL OF YOU APPLE MAC LUNATIC ZEALOTS!

Zealot. You are a lying Zealot. I have a G3 no one wanted. I got OS 10.2 running. It sucks ass, and G3 are slower than pig-shit. The OS is not Unix power user friendly. Its packaging system is HORRIBLE. You don*t know what you are talking about * AT ALL.

http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/
Go here to see it G4-1000, spec INT of 306 (SPEC-CPU2000), P3-1000 spec INT of 309. Hhahaha.

Dual G4 1000 Macs are getting DESTROYED by a SINGLE P4 in benchmarks. Zealots, deny this one. http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/07_jul/fea tures/cw_macvspc2.htm [digitalvideoediting.com]

"Apple CEO Steve Jobs said this week that his company would consider moving to Intel chips, but that he would wait until at least 2003 because the transition to Mac OS X was more important. But with the speed of Power PC hardware increasingly falling behind Intel's chips--The Pentium 4 will hit 3 GHz this year--Apple would be wise to do a bit of research. I recommend AMD's upcoming 64-bit Opteron, which will give Apple a technological leg up on Windows and, perhaps, offer them Windows compatibility through the Opteron's full compatibility with 32-bit x86 code. Come on, Apple: Do the right thing." Read the blurb on WinInformant. Read more for a short commentary.

"The dual Athlon is still the fastest PC we've tested, but the single Intel P4 2.53 GHz machine runs a close second, and even beats the dual Athlon on some of the tests. And, as expected, the Mac dual 1GHz G4 could not even come close to keeping up with these two PCs. Even though the P4 machine has only a single processor, it was easy for it to leave the dual-processor Mac far behind." Read the benchmarks at DigitalVideoEditing.

A quick comparison, when using the better compilers for the x86 CPUs:

Integer Results:
Athlon 1666 (2000+) : 697
P4 2200 : 790
G4 1000 : 306
PIII 667 : 310

Floating Point Results:
Athlon 1666 : 596
P4 2200 : 779
G4 1000: 187
PIII 667 : 222

For the people who argue that Altivec was not enabled. This is true, but it is also unfair.

The compiler they used, gcc 2.95.2, doesn't know how to use MMX or SSE either, and barely knows how to use the PPro floating-point instructions FCOMI and FCMOVcc.

Fuck those Mongoloid retards. Never in my life have I seen a royal fuckup as them not being able to whip MSFT ass with OS X. But they had to fuck-face try to be a hardware vendor in a world of cheap chink knockoffs (where the hardware is commoditized to the point where there is little quality variance) where even Compaq died and shriveled up. Fucking idiots.

"Will Microsoft dump Mac support? Two firms slag off each other By INQUIRER staff: Wednesday 17 July 2002, 12:22 " http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4485 [theinquirer.net]

"Apple profits halve in Q2 Jobs predicts flatness ahead By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 16 July 2002, 22:05 " http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4467 [theinquirer.net]

" "bait and switch." Apple: Apple to Unveil .Mac Today Posted by pudge on Wednesday July 17, @04:31AM Steve Mason writes "Apple has put up a .Mac FAQ up here proving that .Mac will indeed be introduced at Mac World New York. .Mac will cost $100 a year as previous rumors had reported." Yes, this means that if you don't pay Apple, your mac.com URL and email address will stop working. Some have suggested that the "switch" in Apple's new ad campaign stands for the unfortunate part of a "bait and switch." Someone should mirror that URL, it might be taken down any second now.
[slashdot.org]
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/1 7/ 1134213&mode=nested&tid=107

Zealots. He used the word "magic" and excused unethical business practice, ignore their plunging profits and growing customer dissatisfaction, their complete loss of the educations market only to have their stake in things being upheld by horn-rimmed-glass wearing elitist "artists" and "musicians" who have to make it look like if you create art or music on anything but a Mac its amateurish and unprofessional because they don*t know what the fuck they are doing and are being shown up by talented/poor people with PCs.

I have *never* met a Mac user that has taught me one things about computing. Ever.

Steve Jobs is egotistical, and he chose to not take on XP head to head with OS X. Now OS X is relegated to a niche processor, once Adobe and MSFT pull the plug (notice Adobe took considerable time to get OS X versions of their stuff out the door with CALL-HOME on all their apps for the Mac) there wont be much to speak of in terms of software. If OS X was for x86, there would be sex appeal, the would make more money and the x86 would finally get an Open Firmware and a vendor with a deep respect for building the right things (an the wrong video chipsets) on the motherboards.

The Apple ][ was it for them. After that, the TRASH-80 seems like a holy crusade.

I have a G3 here beside me, and I can't upgrade the CPU officially, they wont give a 4.X firmware for it, so much for OPEN-firmware, its slow as fucking SHIT with this horribly slow clock and HALF SPEED cache, and there is no SCSI. It*s a PC with a slow CPU.

I never had any intention of running MacOSX server on it. Instead I wanted to run NetBSD.

The Xserve uses Motorola 7455 processor with 2MB of L3 cache and PC2100 RAM. Unfortunately, even though this is a "server" class machine, Apple skimped and did not allow you to use ECC memory. For a datacenter machine, this seems remarkably short sighted.

While the machine is quick, it still lags behind the high-end P4 and Athlon's when it comes to doing NetBSD builds. It is slightly slower the same speed as 1.4GHz Athlon.

If you need a lot of powerpc computing in a small form factor, the Xserve is a nice box but x86 still has it beat when it comes to price/performance.

One last thing, the Xserve is exceptionally loud. Granted it is a 1U box but it is louder than other 1U I've ever heard.

After having a (single CPU) Xserve to play for the past week, I thought I'd try to interject some of my experience with it.
I have to say that the Xserve is not the first dual processor RISC 1U machine. The Alpha powered CS20 precedes by well over a year (which can have two 833MHz 21264 (EV67) cpus).

Note: The Dell 1650 and 2650 are both cheaper, the 2650 has SMT, and ECC (and nice linux
ecc support as well, it logs ECC errors in syslog). They also include onboard RAID(option
via 7899 asic) and a U160 AIC-7899 by default. And you can buy retail CPUs and retail
memory for Dells often at half the price without voiding the warranty.

Apple charges $500 per 120GB EIDE drive. HAHAHAHA.

Apple is right about one thing, that Alpha has existed for some time, but have you ever
tried actually buying an Alpha? Its hard, I know an engineer who works for
DEC->/Compaq->/HP, and I was dying to buy one, and he couldnt find anyone to call me
about getting one.

Apple's New 1U servers: Sorry. Doesn't fit well in a market where the Dell 1550/1650 and
2550 and 2650 exist. Sorry. THEY DON'T PUBLISH SPEC numbers. Apple is a dying breed, I
just recently tried to revive my interest in them only to be disappointed. The Motorola
PPC architecture is embarrassingly slow, and they always are quick to point out the
near-useless Altivec and some obscure filter in Photoshop, but its not true. I have a Mac,
several PCs and a SPARC at *home*, so trust me people, this box is a bore. And OS X and
Open ClosedROM make putting regular memory, disks and CPU upgrades NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE, they
try to block it so you have to buy the same part from them 3x the cost. And the Dell 530
Dual P4-Xeon with SMT buries the fastest Mac by almost a factor of two.
OS X is no great shakes as of yet because even though most of the porting off of Classic
has been done, there are annoying remnants of classic everywhere, including a gamut of
Apple utilities. These are notoriously the worst Administrator-unfriendly boxes in the
industry, and I have used a few boxen in my time. OS X's Darwin kernel will be sorely
eclipsed by Linux 2.6, and 2.4.X is already superior in all the ways I can tell (This isnt
to say BSD it bad, but I dont think this OS demands a PREMIUM). I tried YellowDog, Madrake
and Debian on PPC as well, and they ran (even with aggressive G3 optimizations) rather
poorly - but interestingly far faster than native OS X.
This is a dying gasp of air from a dead Unix vendor, who has had to turn themselves into a
Microsoft VAR (most popular Mac Application: Microsoft Office X).
If you have an insatiable fetish for PPC, DON*T. Wait for Hammer. Remind yourself about
SMT, and 2.8GHz clock speeds before you go pay for obsolete/deprecated silicon. And the
term RISC? Pathetic.
I happily resell our product on a 1650 and 2650. We "configured" a Mac box
because we were genuinely curious. We laughed at the final price and moved on.
This isn*t a troll, or a flame * its reality. What this box does can be done with a 1650,
with redundant power supplies, with SCSI and hardware raid build ON BOARD, dual gigabit
NICs onboard, dual 1400 MHZ/512cache Tualatin (with SPEC numbers to gauge the performance
by) (2650 gets high clock Xeons), two 64bit/66Mhz slots, onboard video, console
redirection, USB, etc. And for half the price. And you can use retail Intel CPUs,(cheap),
retail hard drives (if you don*t want to buy the Dell ones at a modest premium), and
retail Crucial.com memory (the same memory Dell uses for Half the price). All in all, you
get a box, for half the price, with twice the features and performance. And this is coming
from a person who doesn*t even LIKE Dell. (I feel I can always build better more reliable
systems than most of the PC vendors.)
BBBBBBZT. Apple, you lost, you lost, you will always be niche because OS X isn't where it
needs to be * on an X86.

TO give a better link for you, since you will have trouble finding this on your own, I'll put you right where you need to be to see Motorola PPC chips are, well, so horrible they wont publish industry standard Specmarks.
http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/result s/cpu2000.ht ml

Sorry. Apple. Steve Jobs keeps them in business but his ego is trash. I know people who work there, personally . You pay for his ego.

Ok. Publish your findings. No, I didnt think so. So its as conjective as my assertations,
which are based on my whim in addition to evideince (or lacktherof), and the reading of
the CPU Report, EE Times, etc. I'm into this industry, and unless you are a zealot, you
would know PPC is IBM now. Motorola is in the dirt.

Bzzt. I like NeXT. Ahead of its time, over priced. Darwin is useless, I have 1.4.1, its
crap. OS X is nice looking, but it is *very* easy to "piss" the system off, its
package manager is so bad compared to RPM I wont even start, and it is, as as what I
consider a *nix to be, wholly inadequate and incomplete. Next.

About being content free, thats a snarky, trollish accusation. Now why dont you use Purify
on yourself and remove all the said cruft and actually say something in Apple's defense
besides naming Mach 3.0+ (like if it was 5.0+ would it make a shit bit of difference.) I
hate zealotry.

And about computing pleasure. This isnt fafenugen or a driving experience, dude, its about
stuff WORKING, well, for the lowest cost with the cheapest parts. There is no sex appeal
in server administration.

Funny, everytime I have gone to a Mac shop they have, for as long as I can ever remember,
always, ALWAYS had NT based servers. Unilaterally.

And I saw a few Mac shops in my time in New York.

You know what, not that I like NT, but they worked more reliably (generally Compaq
servers) than the Macs did. (Mostly these days non parity memory and no SCSI anymore, its

Funny. When I run a linux or *nix or NT based server I dont have a .DOC reader installed.
Ever. Maybe a PDF reader if I can't figure something out using google, a few nesgroups and
other better-than-manuals-and-man-page sources.

For those wondering why .DOC is still a problem, I have noticed that documents shared even
between Office X, XP and 2002 are very inconsistent. Its MSFT playing the upgrade me to
fix problems game. For complicated layout and manuals, use Framaker or a LaTeX backended
application or something realistic.

As far as OS X being "young", I think its probably the oldest feeling Unix there
is. Old kernel, old Unix specification (I happen to like what I find in a SYS V style /etc) and old binaries included without gcc in the default install. Its only young in that
Apple does not know very well how to serve people who use unix.

I gave OS X a fair shot on a G3 with 1GB of memory. Its good. I wated to use it instead of
Microsoft crap for home use, but I wouldnt switch from Win2k after that. They also block
CPU upgrade cards, which are expensive. They try to block 3rd party memory. The included
keyboard and mouse always sucks. And they try not to partition non-apple drives with Drive
Setup, which is the WORST partitioning utility, and Apple's partition maps are screwed up
and stupid, and trying to run OS X without classic is diffcult because so many fools still
have ported thier stuff to OS X.

I'll stick to PCs for home computing, and think about other vendors for servers.

IS MICROSOFT CONTEMPLATING ditching support for Apple Macs?
That's the thrust of an article that appeared on Wininfo a day or two back, but if
Microsoft is getting out of the Mac market, it's not quite yet.

And all is not well in other respects, reports Mac Rumors, which has posted what it says
is an Apple FAQ saying people will have to pay for .mac accounts.

Microsoft has already prepared a press release to time with the Macworld Expo saying that
it has announced a Microsoft Office V.x "triple header", this being an
announcement which offers better mobility with Palm handheld for Entourage X, a way to buy
Office v.X cheaper, and some Windows compatibility with the RDC client.

The Wininfo article, however, quotes Kevin Browne, who runs the Mac Business Unit at
Microsoft as saying Apple hasn't made much of an effort to promote Mac OSX, even though
there are opportunities.

He is quoted as saying that "if things don't dramatically turn round", it might
be Goodnight Mr Chips for Steve Jobs firm.

But the same article says that Apple blames Microsoft for sales problems with Office
v.X.

Jobs and Microsoft's Bill Gates have traditionally had a somewhat strained relationship.
Is this the beginning of the beginning of the end between the two companies?

Wininfo.

Mac Rumors is providing a blow-by-blow account of what's happening at MacExpo on the site
link above - it seems Apple may well announce support for Nforce 2, too.

On the Nvidia site, here, you'll see that Digital Vibrance Control is "currently
unavailable on Mac systems", which is more than just a hint, we guess. *

*JOBS KICKS off MacWorld Expo at the Javitz Center at 09:00 Eastern time. There will be a
live Webcast using Quicktime, natch, here.

This is a good start (the buying public is sending a message to Apple, how do the intend
to GROW thier market share????????)

Apple profits halve in Q2

Jobs preducts flatness ahead

By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 16 July 2002, 22:05

APPLE MADE A NET profit of $32 million for its third quarter, almost half the profit it
made in the same period last year, and turnover fell three per cent to $1.43 billion
compared to the quarter in 2001.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4467

http://docs.info.apple.com/article2.html?artnum= 60 839
TITLE Firmware Update: Firmware Updates 4.1.7 and Later May Disable Out-of-Spec Third-Party RAM Article ID: Created: Modified: 60839 4/12/01 9/28/01

Read up. Apple is trying to make it harder and harder to use "out of spec" hahahaha memory. Luckily www.crucial.com always works. But imagine, a firmware update that DISABLES YOUR MEMORY.

Apple tried to block G3 owners from upgrading to G4. Nice guys.
PowerForce G4 ZIF

The PowerForce G4 ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) is the only G4 CPU upgrade you will want to upgrade your "Beige" Power Mac G3, "G3 All-in-One" educational model, Blue and White G3's and the Yikes Motherboard Graphite G4's. The PowerForce G4 ZIF is one of the highest performance CPU products when used with "AltiVec enhanced" software. Utilizing the second generation PowerPC 7410 processor ("G4") the PowerForce G4 includes a full 1 megabyte of backside cache running at up to 220MHz.

G4 ZIF Upgrade vs. 800MHz G4 Apple: PowerForce ZIF G4 550/220/1MB Apple G4 733 Price $289 $1599

The Bottom Line: If you already have quite a bit invested in your Power Mac G3, it just makes sense to upgrade the processor rather than opting for the new G4 systems from Apple. Apple has finally eliminated all of the legacy ports with the removal of the ADB port on the new G4 systems, not to mention the removal of the serial ports, and SCSI on the Blue and White G3 systems. So the choice is clear. PowerLogix saves you hundreds of dollars over the cost of buying a new system!

PowerLogix was the first to release a solution for the G4 ROM block for Blue and White G3s.

Bruising by Apple
Roland Miller III

One notable fact concerning Apple's customer base is that it has always tested very highly in the category of brand loyalty. "Once a Mac user, always a Mac user." Apple has depended on this customer loyalty to get it through some rough times. It could always count on a portion of the market to continue to buy Apple products and continue to upgrade with Apple products. Despite (or perhaps due to) this loyalty, Apple has subjected its customers to some decidedly anti-customer abuses.

The latest example of Apple bruising its customers is a doozy. Due to shortages of the higher speed G4 processors, Apple speed reduced its entire line by 50 MHz and kept the prices the same. On top of that, Apple unilaterally cancelled all outstanding G4 orders with instructions that customers should reorder their systems. This has the net effect of increasing everyone's cost for the same system.

Needless to say, this action produced a massive and immediate customer backlash. Based on what I have seen on the net, this uproar lasted a few hours before Apple backed down and started to rejoin reality. After about a day of total confusion and rampant rumors followed by a week of small clarifications, Apple made right and reinstated all G4 orders except the high end 500 MHz model. Those customers were offered the choice of purchasing the "new" 450 MHz model at the original 450 MHz price, which is what should have been done in the first place.

While it is possible for me to see some corporate logic behind the original decision, never the less, this bright idea should not have left the meeting room where it was hatched. It doesn't take an MBA (obviously) to predict the firestorm that was touched off when this decision was implemented. The only positive thing I can see in this fiasco was the speed at which corrective steps were implemented. The corporation responded to its customer's will and proved somewhat nimble in the process.

Another recent example of Apple bruising was with AppleShare IP 6.2. Apple decided to charge several hundred dollars for this upgrade (the previous being 6.1.) The only problem was that aside from a few new features, it was mainly seen as a bug-fix and compatibility upgrade for MacOS 8.6 (which itself was a free upgrade to 8.5.1.) You couldn't run ASIP 6.1 on 8.6 and you couldn't run the upgrade on 8.5. Again, the reaction was very predictable: customer outrage. Apple listened to its customers and eventually made 6.2 a free update to 6.1.

You may have also have heard about Apple purposefully preventing G3 owners from installing G4 CPU upgrades with a firmware upgrade that officially solved another problem. People were again outraged when the rumor was confirmed by all of the CPU upgrade companies. The outrage keyed on false advertising and speculation that Apple released a Trojan horse.

There were unofficial rumors from anonymous Apple employees that this firmware block will be removed with Mac OS 9. However, there has been no official word from Apple concerning this issue. In the meantime, all the CPU upgrade companies have announced that they have gotten around the block and that their respective upgrade will work fine when they ship.

While Apple has responded favorably to two of these examples, all of these misfires do take a toll. Many people simply will not tolerate this sort of behavior from a major corporation. A company simply cannot afford to make too many of these types of decisions and still remain in business.

Ultimately what can be learned from these examples?

The perception of the "bottom-line" doesn't always coincide with the needs of the consumer resulting in corporate mistakes of judgment. Some of them can be bad enough to make the pages of the Laramie Daily Boomerang. I can't speculate on whether these bad decisions were based on stupidity or on over estimating the loyalty of Apple*s customers or both. Apple has taken concrete steps in most of these cases to defuse the situation. As long as Apple continues to admit that it is wrong and make things right immediately, I will still tolerate being one of its customers.

Until next time. . .

It wasn't meant to be a troll. And thank you for your honesty.

I gave OS X a fair shake. I have many machines at home and with Gnucleus I was able to get
just about every Mac app compiled native for OS X in existence. (Thank god I wont be
keeping any of them or buying any of them - try before you buy, people)

I have to say that the total lack of incumbent middleware is horrible with OS X. Its
barely an OS out of the box. I hate having to boot from a CD to manage anything, and its
multiboot handling is inferior. The Norton set of tools is pathetically weak for the
money. Office X is admittedly excellent. But that's it. IE was mentioned not too long ago
as rendering incorrectly and having a huge security flaw that is fixed in 5.2.1, but the
response from MSFT took much longer than they do for x86.

If OS X was ported to x86 (looks like it has) I would buy it. Period. Forget buying a PPC
ripp off machine though.

I noticed on the OS X cd there is i386 directories littering the place and Darwin
(hahahah) works on like one computer with an intel chip deep in the belly of Apple, but
they are not trying to make Darwin/X86 more appealing than ANY ANY of the other BSDs, they
all destroy Darwin in usability, even when you get Darwin from
http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/.

I came, I saw, I mastered it, I left. Its BORING.

And as far as IPFW. IPF for OpenBSD is out. and there are no decent APP-firewalls for OS X
(Firewalk sucks), Brickhouse is a joke of a GUI.

I am thinking Kerio Winroute/Personal Firewall as a base comparison. The fact nothing
analogous exists in Mac OS X land make this platform more unusable. Also, if Apple like
fit and finish on Unix, why dont they make the more complicated things useable through
GUI (like Brickhouse did for IPF). Noo, the only people Apple caters to is those who die
their hair purple and sucks on pacifier and laugh at baby rattles while they are e-tarded
from their last bout with Xtasy after the cool rave for mac zealots.

: We can forget about this because its a pipe dream and it wont ever happen and it wont ever happen because its a pipe dream.

I think its clear its a pipe dream, we can forget about it because its a pipedreamery factory pumping out pipes and dreams.

: PIPE DREAM
: openfirmware is worst
its like you get a command line
: anything apple is worse
: its poop
: of something worse than unuseable
: you can run like 10 OSes on a pc
: well even suns have openfirmware
: its not like clear why its good
: crapple is like 3 oses, tops
: alpha SRM is good
: linBIOS (pipe Dream) would be good
: repairing remote filesystems over the network isnt gay
: like a real SRM would let you do
: but not going to happen in PC LAND
: its a pipe dream
: and openfirmware, while technically correct, is CRAP
: FUCKING CRAP
: zzzz
: it is
: its all crap
: like IOS is better for a boot loader
: but crapple is the crap of the crap
: cream of the crap
: creamy pussy
: nasty dirty
: creaming crud

Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix Users (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4911809)

Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.

I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need, not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.

Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.

Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design [slashdot.org]. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.

There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. [debian.org] For Mac OS X users, uControl [versiontracker.com] works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design [slashdot.org] of the ADB keyboard.

Apple provides a technical note [apple.com] on how to remap the keyboard, but provides no solution to the hardware problems caused by the design of the ADB keyboard. This tech note helps foreign language users, but does nothing for the CapsLock/Ctrl problem.

Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 12 years [google.com]. I expect that trend to continue. (Also note that my Apple contact indicated that Macs would never ship with a 3-button mouse, even though Apple intended to port almost all X-window software and deliver it either on a CD/DVD or installed directly on each Mac's hard drive. How Unix friendly is a 1-button mouse with X programs that often require 3 buttons?)

Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (0, Flamebait)

dogzilla (83896) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912348)

Hmmm. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'd wager that Apple couldn't give a flying fuck if you buy a laptop or not, or indeed if the next breath you draw is your last, and I'm certain they will not be changing the design of their keyboards just to satisfy your pathetic ranting ass.

So how 'bout you wipe that fleck of spittle off your lower lip, pull that big stick out of your butt, and keep your worthless rants to yourself from now on.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (3, Funny)

wazzzup (172351) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912479)

This guy has been posting the same rant for over a year. Always posts as an AC.

He's just some lame ass that likes to bait Mac users - admittedly a task similar to shooting fish in a barrel.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (1)

tdegruyl (536375) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912900)

Yeah, but the barrel is getting bigger.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4917632)

Are you fucking kidding? you must know how to read market share data. Apple hasnt changed its market share much at all, and OS X adoption rates are LOW for people with older Apple hardware [more than 1.5 years, you go from slow to slow as shit]. about the only reason Apple's market share goes up is that the computers cant be upgraded so 10 mac people end up having 30 computers.

fucking retard

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (0)

ickyfreak (181280) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912701)

jeeze mate is that ur sig or do you post this everytime the word macos and unix are used in a post... i've seen this time and time again on macslash and slashdot *sheesh*

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (1)

bursch-X (458146) | more than 11 years ago | (#4912976)


Yes and he should add the line:

In Soviet Russia YOU are unusable for Apple Laptops.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (4, Insightful)

usr122122121 (563560) | more than 11 years ago | (#4913224)

I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key.
As such a long-time Unix user, when you get down off of your soapbox, you will have no problem spending the ten seconds it takes to redo your keymappings.

Then, you may eat your foot for a mid-afternoon snack.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4913673)

i'm looking at an imac keyboard and the ctrl key sure looks like it is to the left of the A, dorks.

Re:Apple Laptop Keyboards Unsuitable for Unix User (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4919427)

here's a sharpie. problem solved. ass.

Top 10 Best Tsarkon Terms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4917263)

For those who have been entertained by Tsarkon's AC trolls in this space (the extended exchange with daveschroeder was particularly amusing), I've collected what I consider to be top ten "words" and phrases employed by him or her:

10. PAX ROMANA
9. fucktard
8. FUCKERFACE
7. i feel the urge to defecate
6. cheap shylock shyster version
5. You want infant?
4. POONANI
3. eructating bullshit
2. HAHAHAHAHAHA
...and of course, 1. cuntcasket

Oh, and FYI, I already know that I'm a fat, zit ridden, unemployed, living at home, loser, sexless, lord of the rings trekker star wars fucker, dumb stupid fucking cunt. Oh, and a cuntcasket. So you're wasting your energy by telling me.

Re:Top 10 Best Tsarkon Terms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4918750)

You are a weird, cuntcaskety mediocritomaton miasma of festering caramelized dog shit mixed with grey matter in that quagmire cesspool you have going in that vacuous cavern that is your skull.

Re:Top 10 Best Tsarkon Terms (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4918785)

Many thanks to you; he who has collected my works.

Love,

TSARKON

Re:Top 10 Best Tsarkon Terms add to list! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4918879)

Forged when the world was young, when man and bird and beast were one, and death was but a dream, there is Shroeder-uber-Gandalf, who makes Merlin look dumb!

Re:Top 10 Best Tsarkon Terms another goodie (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4918903)

you have a giant bleeding brain hematoma you fucking cuncasket.
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