Non-Integrated Motherboards? 78
Anonymous Coward asks: "Nowadays no matter where you look, most motherboards have built in everything. Built-in sound, video, LAN, and so on. Are there any reliable manufacturers that still make motherboards without the extras? One example: I want to build a high-end workstation for video processing. Often with on-board audio there are timing issues. Disabling the on-board features doesn't always work. When your on-board NIC fails, a piece of your motherboard is no longer working, not just a replaceable expansion card.
What manufacturers are still making 'barebones' motherboards (and what models) without having to buy a server backplane?"
Well one of your best bets (Score:1)
Some Do, But Can Be Hard To Find (Score:2)
The legend of Gimpy (OT) (Score:4, Insightful)
Gimpy started life as a 486DX-25, one of Dell's better models at the time; He lived in a FULL-tower case, with a large, expandable cache memory card and expandable onboard VGA controller (2MB). Gimpy had all the available bells & whistles that were available at the time of his birth, including a comprehensive self-diagnostic tool, built into the BIOS.
I got Gimpy as scrap from school. Primarily he was given away 'cuz the IDE controller on his motherboard was fried; the self-diagnostics would paste a big, red FAILED and lock up immediately after starting to test them. Second, the not-entirely-standard sized AT power-supply was toast.
Fortunately, being friends w/ the tech guy, I got all the goodies I could find that went along w/ Gimpy; enough RAM to bump him up to 24MB (!!!), a 486DX2-66, and a power-supply from an dead 386. The power supply was one that looked like it came from the original PC, you know... with the Big Red Switch on the back corner of the machine.
The first step in bringing gimpy back to life was to get the juice flowing. With the sheetmetal panel enclosing the case removed, the PSU fit without a problem. Unfortunately, trying ot close up the case ended up covering the big red switch that turned the machine on (the orignal PSU had a cable going from a switch on the front-panel to the PSU; remember, this was pre-ATX soft-power). The obvious solution was to take a pair of tin snips & cut a hole in the case, resulting in a tower with a big red switch sticking out of it; classic ghetto-tech.
Step 2 in bringing the beast back to life was getting some HDDs attached. Being a collector of old PCs & components, I dug through my pile of spare parts, and found a pair of 386 'servers' that had disc controllers & decently sized HDDs. The first was an ESDI controller with a 500MB-ish drive attached and this cool bank of 8 diagnostic LEDs that did this Night Rider pulsing thing during normal operation. The other option was a full-lenght, 16-bit ISA slow-narrow SCSI-1 card with the various SCSI drives I'd collected for it (a 300MB Quantum, a 500 from a microVAX-II, and an 80MB Quantum stripped out of a Mac).
Purely for capacity reasons, I went with the SCSI.
After this point, things were fairly simple. Toss a pair of floppies (3.5" and 5.25") on it & give it a NIC (a real NE2000, which got hooked up to my coax ethernet network), give it a monitor (IBM 8514; those things are tanks, I've had 2 and they NEVER die or go bad, you just get annoyed at the tiny screen). I then threw slackware onto it, and told my sister how to login & use man.
Mod Parent Up (Score:1)
Re:The legend of Gimpy (OT) (Score:2)
I've got a client with no money who has an old 486 that's literally held together with duct tape. Til I run out of 486 parts to give her, it'll probably stay that way. Hell, it does what she needs, so why not??
Re:The legend of Gimpy (OT) (Score:1)
Abit does (Score:1, Offtopic)
Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:3, Interesting)
And as for network cards and such dying on the board, well, as bad as that is, I've seen boards with many PCI slots AND integrated stuff, so you don't lose anything by going integrated. The sound may genuinely be an issue, I do not know, but for example the network card, well you just throw a PCI card in. Onboard video has a notoriously bad rep, but believe this has been improving, and it's great to run a second moniter. I wish I'd purchased a mobo w/ integrated video and AGP slot (they ARE out there!), because I'm running 3 moniters. 3 video cards, network, sound, and tv tuner fill up a system real quick!
Anyway, just remember, it may irk you to pay for things your not using, but at the same time, it's really annoying (and very very difficult to fix) when you run out of slots!
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:2)
Nope, onboard video these days is typically AGP based, and if you put anything in the AGP slot it is disabled, which sorta puts a damper on it being used to drive extra monitors.
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:2)
And it still can be used to run another head, just not w/ an AGP board
Oh well, tnx.
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:1)
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:1)
Jason
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:1)
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:1)
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:1)
Re:Integrated isn't ALL bad (Score:2)
ABIT has some offerings (Score:3, Informative)
It looks to be a powerful board, but I would be making the switch from SDRAM to DDR, which doubles the cost of the upgrade to get any acceptable amount of RAM.
Re:ABIT has some offerings (Score:1)
Upgrade to DDR (Score:1)
- dave f.
Re:Upgrade to DDR (Score:2)
Re:Upgrade to DDR (Score:1)
- dave f.
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
The cheap AC97 sound chip that a lot of integrated audio uses costs something like $0.10 a unit. Let's imagine that the three stereo jacks in the back also cost $0.10, so there's a hardware cost per motherboard of $0.20. This can represent, to a Dell or Compaq type OEM, a huge savings vs. a PCI card that might cost them a few bucks per computer.
To the customer directly buying a motherboard, it can seem (and usually is) an even better value to get a motherboard with integrated sound and maybe pay a buck or two (the marked up $0.20) than to pay at least $20 for a sound card at CompUSA...
Tim
Re:Why? (Score:2)
It is cheaper than individual cards, mainly because of packaging, and Dell or "Compaq" (HP) don't have to open up the computer and put cards in, make sure they work, negotiate with different vendors, and stock a myriad of parts.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Because of upgrades (Score:1)
Because I replace my processor every 6-12 months, and I usually have to buy a new motherboard as well then (socket changes, FSB changes, RAM type changes, whatever).
And then I have to buy new HDD controller, FDD, keyboard, mouse, parallel, serial, USB, Firewire, health, whatnot controllers and connectors as well. Basically the whole southbridge and all the connectors at the back, which I bet are together 50% of the mainboard cost, don't need replacement, but I have have to replace them, because they are hardwired to the old board.
Why not break motherboards in 2-3 parts?
- A backplane with PCI and AGB slots
- (plus maybe) CPU socket, northbridge and RAM sockets
- southbridge with all this clutter and connectors etc.
Frankly, it makes more sense to save the CPU socket (significant cost, I guess) and to solder the CPU to the mainboard than to hardwire the southbridge to the northbridge, at least when I look at my buying pattern.
Apart from saving me a lot of money (as described above), it would give a lot more choice. Mainboard manufacturers wouldn't have to make a P3 board with audio and without, with video and without, with RAID and without, for SDRAM and DDR, same for P4 and Athlon and soon Hammer. The northbridge would be dependant on the processor and RAM type, and the southbridge would offer the gimmecks, and any southbridge could be combined with any northbridge.
I, for example, would like to have an athlon or hammer, without legacy crap like parallel, serial, PS/2, FDD etc.. Just USB and maybe Firewire, health control, maybe a HDD controller, nothing else. If I am building a server, I wouldn't even need Firewire, but would like a cheap video card built in (console only), but no audio needed. And nothing from VIA please, I have been burned *way* too much by the KT133A.
Now, try to find me a mainboard, stable and reasonably cheap, with my specs. I would totally expect to be able to relatively easily build such a computer, if most mainboards had north- and southbridge separated.
And the north/south cross-vendor connection standard is simple: PCI (in a modern/fast variation, if needed). Not long ago, even VIA's own north- and southbridges communicated technically via PCI, so it's definitely possible.
The only problem is physical: The ATX standard (case holes, screws etc.) assumes that the connection crap is on the mainboard.
And the willingness of mainboard manufacturers to build such parts.
Don't know, don't care (Score:1)
- Video - When was the last time you saw decent video coming from an integrated component. I know that nVidia was trying to combat this philosophy, but we all know that a good video card has to be at least 1/4 the size of the motherboard.
- Sound - I know somebody who had integrated sound and some games just hated it (ie. no sound, or bugs with sound). Much like the video aspect, you need 1/4 motherboard components.
However, I do have to agree that integrated sound isn't all _that_ bad if you just have some stereo speakers and aren't an audiophile.
- Networking - I can't really comment on this, but I can say that from past experience, that unless you know what chipset you've got and it's good quality, it will suck. I have a 10/100mbps card which operates at 10mbps no matter what is at the other end (and I have tested the other end).
- Serial/Parallel Bus - I suppose you want this on a seperate card too? Well, I too like the days when you had a vast range and choice of new/replacement serial cards (hell, back then you could have multiple ones for a whole range of different things.
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:1)
Don't worry, pretty soon you will have to. All the motherboard will have is like 5 USB ports and a video connector. Sound will be digital and encrypted too.
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:2)
However, I do have to agree that integrated sound isn't all _that_ bad if you just have some stereo speakers and aren't an audiophile."
That said, the NForce "soundstorm" integrated audio is rather good.
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:1)
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:2)
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:1)
I just remembered too - I have an SB Pro ISA still working in my 486 "junk-box."
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:1)
A friend of mine didn't know what kept screwing over his computer every so often until I noticed he was using M$'s drivers.
But, as far as cards go, I don't really know who else has a reputation as much as creative, in the department of sound cards. But creative are also responsible for my uncle's mobo sound-card, which sucks as there's lag to any sound made.
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:2)
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:2)
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Don't know, don't care (Score:1)
I know that, I mean that I feel more powerful if I have a huge grahpics card with a million components on it that I just don't see them stuffing onto the already crammed mb.
integrated networking devices are generally faster than pci NICs
Like I said, I have no experience with them, but anything is faster than mine anyway.
space issues (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally think it's just fine to have this stuff on the mobo, so long as they can be disabled in the BIOS set-up. Having an extra video interface in the machine can be useful for diagnostic purposes, for instance, if you didn't bring a spare card with you; I've used that myself.
Re:space issues (Score:2)
I'm really not seeing a shortage of slots..
Re:space issues (Score:2)
Also, you've named six devices right there. If you needed to put all of that in a system, you'd be out of luck. Even if you didn't need the modem (I usually do, as a back-up connection), you'd have nothing to spare if you needed to add anything.
And the ATX spec is RELATIVELY new. (My IBM PC had the old, wide 8-bit slots.)
Re:space issues (Score:1)
Re:space issues (Score:2)
Re:space issues (Score:2)
Most mobos with heavily integrated features will offer 5 PCI slots and an AGP slot - some even have 6 PCI slots (these are troublesome, however, because the space requirements of all those slots forces the AGP slot very close to the DIMM slots, which can make it difficult to add/remove/change your RAM without removing the vid card - especially a G4 Ti4600). Again, I said most mobos - Abit, Asus, Gigabyte...
My Votes to...... (Score:1)
I have built a few with ASUS motherboards, the last one did have on-board audio, I disabled it and it disappeared. The systems have been really stable and no problems.
I have also had an incident with GigaByte. The issue with this board was ram related, the board would fail to see the ram all together, or only see a single dimm. The RAM tested fine with every other machine and I had the reseller test it too. I swapped the RAM out with junk generic and it started working. No Clue, it is however still running, so that's good right?
Re:My Votes to...... (Score:2)
My friend bought a Tyan S2460 (Dual-athlon board) which seemed fairly nice from the beginning. Had a few small issues with it, such as the BIOS needing to be flashed before it would work properly with Win2000, but not much. That is, until it ate itself hardware-wise. About 6 weeks after the initial purchase, he was running along playing a game and it shut off. No big deal, right? He had to go do something else, so he unplugged it and wandered off. Comes back and tries to power it on. It makes the worst noise and starts smelling. He rips the power out and pops it open - can't see anything wrong with it, though. On a whim, he decides to go for it - puts the power back in and fires it back up. Quite literally, in fact, as a small surface-mount IC situated almost underneath the AGP slot flames up and smokes. Needless to say, the board was toast.
The sad part is when he went to warranty it, though. Tyan's warranty policies are pretty screwey, apparently. He would've had to mail it to the original retailer, who'd mail it to Taiwan, where it would be replaced and mailed to the original retailer, who would mail it to him. The shipping costs would have been as much as the board itself, as told quite plainly to him by the retailer's CS rep. Obviously, he never filed the RMA request, as he didn't want to take the chance of paying full-fare for another faulty product.
Re:My Votes to...... (Score:1)
As an aside most warrenties for computer stuff suck, I was unfortunate to own one of those nifty Kenwood 72X drives, sent it back and the replacement died oh and it seemed to kill the ide controller as well.
Thanks for the info tho.
Re:My Votes to...... (Score:2)
Regarding the original story subject, it has on-board Ethernet and sound, which is fine for my needs. Personally, I like the idea of having as much stuff as possible integrated, at least for non-critical applications. Less cards to fiddle with means less stuff to go wrong. I'm currently looking for a Mini-ITX sized system with video, two ethernet ports, IDE and pretty much nothing else built in. Everything seems to have USB and Firewire and be designed as a home audio server, and all I want is a faster, quieter firewall/Apache/mySQL/whatever box than my old P133.
Same board (Score:2)
The retailer told me he wouldnt carry Tyan anymore because of the return rates.
We're now stuck with a dead Tyan mobo and no more warranty
Re:My Votes to...... (Score:2)
You know, I've had trouble with Tyan boards in the past -- BIOS problems (that kept the "on-board" SCSI from working), and a board that went up in a puff of white smoke one day. Never the less, I got the Tyan S2462 -- the higher end dual-Athlon board. I carefully followed AMD's specs for power and memory, and I haven't had any problems with it, save for the noise from all the fans to keep it cool. Maybe it's the fact that it's AMD's reference design and not Tyan's, I don't know.
In response to the original question, I use the integrated Adaptec SCSI and 3Com LAN and they perform just as well as, if not better than, what I've seen using separate components (purely antedotial, as opposed to lies, damn lies, and benchmarks). I've overridden the on-board AGP video with my own card, and I don't even recall if it has on-board sound -- I think so (it has everything else), but in any case, I threw in my own sound card. My point is that if you get a high-end enough board, it may have everything integrated, but it will also allow you to gracefully override any of those components.
-"Zow"
Soyo Dragon (Score:1)
Is it that important? (Score:2)
And this stuff is cheap, real cheap, to put on the board -- in the case of video, the only cost is the connector, the sound requires a ten-cent codec and the connectors, etc. You most likely won't save any money deliberately avoiding integrated hardware, and you could end up paying extra for the "privilege". So just get the board with the features you want and don't pay the slightest regard to the integrated hardware, it won't bother you if you don't want to use it.
Why bother? (Score:1, Troll)
'jfb
Re:Why bother? (Score:1)
Please, at least pretend to stay on topic. Let me refresh your memory, the question was who makes non-integrated motherboards.. not why do we use Intel hardware.
Re:Why bother? (Score:2)
If the original poster is incapable of turning off the built in sound (!) on a PC motherboard, perhaps (s)he ought to be looking at purchasing hardware from an OEM, like Dell?
'jfb
Re:Why bother? (Score:1)
As to the last sentence.. well, if he can't disable the sound then it's either a real POS OEM machine already, or he's inept and should be using standard iMacs exclusively.
Used to not like (Score:1)
If you really don't want any onboard stuff ABIT, ASUS, SOYO, and all the other major board manufacturers make boards without built in stuff. But built in no longer means crap.
Re:Used to not like (Score:2)
well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Not to sound contrarian, but you could always bypass all of these problems by buying a Power Mac. Dual processors, AGP graphics, built-in high-quality FireWire and Gigabit Ethernet, optional PCI cards for SDI and HD-SDI video I/O, optional internal ATA or SCSI RAID or external SCSI or FC RAID, and no audio sync problems. Plus, the power of UNIX, and you can run Shake, Final Cut Pro, After Effects, and ProTools.
This is the part where you all mod me down as a troll, or flame me for recommending expensive hardware from a dying company.
Re:well... (Score:2)
As much as I love my PC, I also understand that there are things that I don't intend to do with it, either..
Honesty should not be modded down - it should be modded up... and me without any moderator points right nowRe:well... (Score:2)
Yeah, after I posted I thought of something else I should have added. In my opinion, there may be an occasion where building your own PC from component parts is absolutely the right thing to do. But more often than not, the time and effort you spend building your FrankenPC outweighs any possible benefits you gained from doing it yourself.
I speak from a certain degree of experience. A few years ago, I used to work for a company that sold, among other things, high-end video editing systems in the half-a-million-plus market. At one point we tried to diversify by selling hand-build low-end systems into the sub-$50,000 market as well. We assembled the computers from the best components available to save money, hand-picked the processors and I/O cards and whatnot, and then loaded them up with software like After Effects and Premiere and such. Our intent was to sell three or four of these little machines to every customer who bought a high-end system, and for a while it worked.
The hitch was, we encountered amazing problems getting our hand-built computers to work right. I believe the guys we had doing it really knew what they were doing, but we had problems starting with driver incompatibilities-- I think the HD I/O board's driver was incompatible with the HIPPI NIC driver, or some damn thing-- and getting more troublesome from there.
Long story short, we ended up losing money on every hand-build machine we sold, and we had some pretty unhappy customers for a while.
So then the boss decided that that was enough of that, and we started selling pre-assembled ZX10 workstations to do the same job. We had to cut our profit margins on them a little, because a computer that we previously built for $6,000 in parts was now costing us $11,000 to buy, but we spent far less time making 'em work. It turned out to be a better solution for us. Or so we thought.
Thing was, we still ended up with some unhappy customers. Even though the computers were pre-assembled and tested at the factory and whatnot, they still had problems. The HD I/O board set, from Matrox or some damn thing, wasn't reliable. The filesystems couldn't quite keep up and would sometimes drop frames. The audio I/O boards were plagued with AES sync problems, and the analog monitoring channels would sometimes just drop out for no reason until the operator rebooted. So even though our profits were up, our customers were still unhappy.
When Apple came out with the next-to-last generation of Power Macs, the first dual-processor ones, we finally said, "Screw this." We started selling Macs straight from Apple with no additional parts other than some RAM and an HD-SDI board from a company whose name I can't recall right now, with After Effects and Photoshop and Final Cut Pro and (later) Shake. I think we made about a hundred bucks on each of them. But we sold 'em like crazy, and the customers loved them. We even replaced a few FrankenPCs and ZX10s with Macs at our expense in order to salvage a few customer relationships.
(Incidentally, it was about this time that Intergraph sold their workstation business to SGI and the ZX10 stopped being available. So it's a good thing we made the switch when we did, otherwise we would have been up a creek.)
As far as I know, that company is still selling Macs alongside their $500,000+ editing and effects systems.
So that's where my recommendation comes from. If you want to get this kind of work done with the minimum of hassle, buy a Power Mac. Unless there's something that the Mac just can't do for you that a PC could-- which is unlikely, I think-- you'll be much happier with it.
Well, lets take a look at what I run (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, Most come with the built on sound, but I turn that option off in the BIOS (the same way I can turn off the serial/parallel/hdd controllers also) and it doesn't affect any operation of the system, because as far as everything is concerned, when it doesn't show up on boot, it is not there.
My question has to be...did you even attempt to look before you asked? You stated that you needed "high-end" boards, however the research I have done seems to illustrate that all the "low cost" systems and motherboards use this method, and the more expensive motherboards don't integrate a whole lot other than the standard that has been in place for years now.
Go find one your god damned self :) (Score:2)
Put in what you want, or don't want, and it will tell you what there is out there.
Found these @ NewEgg (Score:4, Informative)
Asus A7V333 or P4B553
Gigabyte GA-8SG667You are right, however, in saying that non-integrated mobos are difficult to find...I have found that the quality of mobos is on the rise (in general) and the integrated features save me PCI slots for additional cards (and other crap I lust after, but would rarely use..).
Re:Found these @ NewEgg (Score:1)
Not my impression, for hardware in general and esp. for mainboards. I had maybe 10 problems this year (some of them with parts baught earlier), probably more than in the 10 years before.
Re:Found these @ NewEgg (Score:2)
There are also Tyan and IWill boards, particularly their higher-end models, with nothing integrated.
BTW I've noticed just the opposite -- the more stuff is integrated (which generally means cheaper-made all around), the more likely the board will skimp on slots, often having only 2 or 3 slots. Whereas naked boards typically have the full 7 or 8 slots.
SuperMicro P6DGE (Score:2)
Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to find out the current specs for this board. At the time I got mine, it took up to two 550 MHz PIII's and 2 GB RAM. I've been satisfied with it.
AT (Score:1)
Add a card for your parallel port. Add another to get two serial ports. Add another for your bus mouse, another for your sound card, and another for your video card - if you are lucky, your mobo supported the VLB bus for your video card and/or ide controllers.
Ah, those were the days... But back to the real world:
Most integrated components can be BIOS disabled. Either that or just don't load the drivers for them. Seems simple enough.