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Mozilla's future's so bright (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994286)

I gotta wear shades.

Long live the bayesian spam filtering!

Hello, michael is a worthless prick (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994386)

He is also a whining, flamebaiting cunt.

Yet his mountainous stupidity somehow fits the editorial staff of Slashdot. All he needs to do is drink some mercury and whine constantly about spam and he'll be indistinguisable from CmdrTaco.

You forgot to take your medication .. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994495)


Must Have Left Them At Your Mom's. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994504)

When your sister comes over tonight, could you have her bring it? Tell that bitch to bring a six-pack and to wear that dress I like. Thanks!

Sure Mr Djingis-Khan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994531)

Everything you say, but gulp them down ... NOW!

Deja-vu (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994550)

That is what I was telling your mom about my nuts this morning.

Your mom: "I want $5 for letting you tea-bag me..."
Me: "Everything you say, but gulp them down ... NOW!"
Your mom: *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*
Me: "Ahhhhh... Now toss my salad, bitch."
Your mom: "Okey-dokey!" *slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

IE better (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994289)

Internet Explorer 6 SP1 first post!!

mozilla rocks! (1, Insightful)

yukster (586300) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994292)

Though i wish all those boneheads out there would start checking their sites in mozilla before they put them up. Maybe someday more people wil use Mozilla than explorer... ha ha ha...

Re:mozilla rocks! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994308)

I do. I use Mozilla, so I test mostly in that, and then when I'm almost done, I look and see what IE does wrong and fix it.

Re: Validation (4, Insightful)

bunratty (545641) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994433)

It's so much easier to simply validate against the W3C standards instead of checking to see if your pages work in every browser. If a page validates and works in the earliest version of IE you're trying to support, it should work for almost all visitors you're targetting.

Re: Validation (2, Interesting)

tradervik (462791) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994450)

Which earliest version of IE? IE on Win 95, Win 98, Win Me, Win NT, Win 2000, Win XP or IE on the Mac? All of these platforms represent significant portions of my company's client base.

Re: Validation (5, Insightful)

Dirtside (91468) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994569)

That's not good enough. Even a browser which is supposedly standards-compliant can have bugs which cause wierd display glitches, even if your code is letter-perfect. Mozilla 1.0 (I think, might have been 1.1) had a strange bug where certain combinations of COLSPAN and WIDTH settings would cause the final cell in each row to be wider than it should -- even if the W3C HTML validator said the code was perfect, and the code worked perfectly in every other browser (including pre-1.0 versions of Mozilla) I tested, including three versions of IE, old Netscape 4.7, and so on.

The bug was eventually fixed, but simply writing and testing it once wouldn't have worked.

It's so much easier to simply validate against the W3C standards instead of checking to see if your pages work in every browser.
Yeah, it's so much easier, but you're ignoring reality. Browsers have bugs, and if you don't test it in the browsers that are *actually* in common use, you're asking for trouble. Even if it works in an early version of IE, Microsoft (and even the Mozilla project) have broken things in later versions which worked in earlier versions.

Re: Validation (3, Informative)

Dave2 Wickham (600202) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994593)

Except - of course - where IE acts retarded. For example, with CSS text sizing - without a doctype it's one size too big, and on IE5 it's too big with a doctype.

Re:mozilla rocks! (1, Interesting)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994572)

In Soviet Russia, the browser changes to suit the website!

Re:mozilla rocks! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994589)

You mean redmond, washington.

Chimera (5, Informative)

selderrr (523988) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994301)

is hands down the best OSX browser I've ever seen. Fast, light, at least as reliable as IE,moz,icab&omni, and most of all : extremely userfriendly. I don't give a rats ass about 90% of the features in IE or mozilla. I don't need no fsking integrated email client and security bollocks.

Chimera provides exactly the features I need, and none more, none less. big kudoos to the chimdevs. If you read this : u guys rock !

Re:Chimera (2, Insightful)

AKnightCowboy (608632) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994365)

One feature lacking from Chimera I can't seem to find is to stop animated GIFs. Mozilla has it and I'd like to see it added to Chimera as well. I can't stand reading pages with dozens of animated gifs all going off at the same time. ugh. :-)

Re:Chimera (3, Informative)

Shuh (13578) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994423)

One feature lacking from Chimera I can't seem to find is to stop animated GIFs. Mozilla has it and I'd like to see it added to Chimera as well. I can't stand reading pages with dozens of animated gifs all going off at the same time. ugh. :-)
~/Library/Application Support/Chimera/Profiles/default/xxxxxxx.slt/user. js

If you don't have a file there, make one and put this in it:

// Don't play those animated gifs over and over.

user_pref("image.animation_mode", "once");

Re:Chimera (1)

otis wildflower (4889) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994548)

Another way to do this is to install and run Privoxy [privoxy.org], which lets you choose how to handle GIFs (either no animation, animate once, or full animate), and gives you ad and popup blocking at the same time.

I know I'm on a privoxy kick, but I recently had my cable modem lapse (unemployment is a bitch) and I've noticed little slowdown thanks to not downloading ads (particularly flash) and other junk.

Re:Chimera (3, Informative)

Shuh (13578) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994395)

If you're using Chimera now and miss MOUSE GESTURES, there is a freeware "input method" you can install that will give you gesture support in any Cocoa program: Bitart Cocoa Gestures [bitart.com] Highly recommeded by this Chimera/Gestures user....

Re:Chimera (4, Interesting)

otis wildflower (4889) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994511)

I'm also a big fan; there's really no reason to go with OmniWeb anymore as Chim handles pretty much every website I visit better. Chimera also imho handles tabs better than Opera for OS X, and I like that it integrates with OS X proxy settings (though I'd like the developers to make that a little more obvious in the doccys ;)

Obvious features I'd like to see though:

more OSXisms, like glowing borders around selected textareas (ala omniweb)

Better theme support, including a theme/preference for 'Textured' (aka brushed metal). This stuff can be done with external apps like InterfaceBuilder, but it should be easier.

UserAgent quick-selects and customization within Preferences, ala Opera

SOME added mail functionality, such as include full webpage as attachment. I like 0.6 adding send link, but I want send page as well to mail copies of 'registration required' pages.

more stability.

better 'threading' behavior: I notice that tabs behave 'blocked' by other tabs' slowness or failure to load pages. Each tab (and browser window obviously) should download and behave independently of any other.

more features, including autofill, more keyboard shortcuts, etc.

better documentation

better interface into 'Helper Application' settings, such as RealPlayer and QuickTime. Ideally Chimera would ask me before it loads something that runs within a helper app whether I want to save or run. This should be configurable and is pretty much a standard item in modern browsers. 0.6 addresses this a bit, but I'd prefer to have an additional option to choose per-click, in order to best avoid rogue code.

Integrate Privoxy :)

Better performance and stability :)

I don't change web habits often, but I have gone from Mozilla web+mail to OS X Mail + Chimera and I'm quite happy with the switch. Chimera should be the only web browser ANY OS X user ever needs, from Grandmas to Geeks. And, of course, being an OS X program, it needs to be pretty, easy to use, and very very powerful. In fact, as it stands now, it IMHO should be the standard OS X browser distributed by Apple, but only when it's a bit more stable (it crashes often on the NYTimes site, and particularly when closing tabs or going from one site to another by cmd-l, typing a new url, and hitting enter when a different page was already loading).

I only hope that moving to the 1.2 (or any other post 1.0) branch won't be too painful or duplicative of work.. I already don't like that the kill-tab behavior is 'backwards' and that throws me when I use Moz..

Nominations For The 2002 Troll Awards! (-1, Troll)

2002 Troll Awards (637776) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994303)

Hello and welcome to the Nominations for the 2002 Troll Awards! Please take a moment from your busy day and make your nominations! Some catagories are for people and some are for posts, so please pay attention. Nominations are open for the next week and should be made to my journal, or to one of my posts about the nominations. Nominations will be closed at 2pm (Eastern) on Jan 08, 2003. So, here are the catagories:

  • Best Troll (person)
  • Worst Troll (person)
  • Most Improved Troll (person)
  • Gayest Troll (person)
  • Troll With the Biggest Cock (person)
  • Troll You Would Like To Drink With (person)
  • Troll You Would Not Want To Get Stuck In an Elevator With (person)
  • Which Troll Should Retire (person)
  • Troll LifeTime Achievement Award (person)
  • Best Troll (post)
  • Worst Troll (post)
  • Most Fish Caught (post)
  • Most Modded Troll (post)
  • Troll You Don't Want To See Again (post)

Re:Nominations For The 2002 Troll Awards! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994335)

I might as well nominate you for "Troll You Would Not Want To Get Stuck In an Elevator With (person)"

IN SOVIET RUSSIA article reads you (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994305)

MozillaZine Review of the Year 2002 by ALEX BISHOP [mailto] | With the release of Mozilla 1.0, the start of the Phoenix and Chimera projects and the launch of Gecko-based browsers from AOL, 2002 has been an exciting year for the Mozilla project. Join us as we take a look back at the past twelve months.

The New Year brought a new browser for Mac OS X users, with the launch of the Chimera [mozilla.org] project. The browser utilises Cocoazilla [mozilla.org] to offer a Mozilla-based product with a native Cocoa front-end. Core developers include David Hyatt [slashdot.org], who now likes Macs so much that he took a job with Apple.

February saw the release of 0.9.8 [slashdot.org], the first Mozilla milestone of the year, which introduced an OS-rendered Classic theme for Windows XP and Mac OS X, Address Book improvements and CSS support for Composer.

In Brussels, FOSDEM [fosdem.org] hosted the Mozilla Developers Meeting in Europe 2.0 [mozdev.org]. Several talks and presentations were given, covering several different aspects of the Mozilla project. The event was so successful that another meeting is planned [mozdev.org] for FOSDEM 2003 in March.

As Spring approached, attention turned towards Mozilla 1.0. drivers@badspam.mozilla.org [mailto] finalised the 1.0 development plan [slashdot.org] and the tree closed [slashdot.org] later in the month. The final pre-1.0 milestone, Mozilla 0.99 [slashdot.org], received so many downloads that the builds had to be mirrored on higher-capacity servers [slashdot.org].

Also in March, AOL began beta-testing a version of the AOL 7.0 client that featured an embedded Gecko browser [slashdot.org], Galeon 1.2.0 was released [sourceforge.net] and another Mozilla Developer Day was held at Carnegie-Mellon University [mozdev.org].

The release of Mozilla 1.0 became tantalizingly close when the 1.0 branch was cut [slashdot.org] and plans were devised for a series of release candidates [slashdot.org]. The first of these candidates [slashdot.org] was delivered later in April.

In a widely anticipated move, AOL subsidiary CompuServe released CompuServe 7.0 [slashdot.org], their first upgrade to use Gecko rather than Internet Explorer for Web browsing.

It wasn't all good news though: a well-publicised security flaw [slashdot.org] was discovered in Mozilla in April. The way the hole was reported led to an increased effort to highlight the existing mozilla.org security bug policy [slashdot.org].

Meanwhile, the first files of a project known as mozilla/browser were checked into the tree.

The march to 1.0 continued with the launches of Release Candidate 2 [slashdot.org] and Release Candidate 3 [slashdot.org]. However, mozilla.org wasn't the only organisation releasing previews; Netscape Communications Corporation unleashed a beta of their new Mozilla-based Netscape 7.0 browser [slashdot.org] to generally positive reviews [slashdot.org].

June was dominated by the long-anticipated release of Mozilla 1.0 [slashdot.org]. The culmination of four years of work, the milestone received several acres of press coverage [slashdot.org]. A party in San Francisco's DNA Lounge [slashdot.org] was held to celebrate, with several satellite parties taking place around the globe.

However, development didn't stop and Mozilla 1.1 Alpha was released [slashdot.org] just a few days later. The Mozilla-based Beonex Communicator 0.8 [slashdot.org] was also launched in June.

By the end of the month, some industry researchers were reporting that Mozilla 1.0 had already achieved a 0.4 percent market share [slashdot.org].

Mozilla 1.1 Beta [slashdot.org] was released in July. The first milestone to include the new 'Almost Standards' mode [evolt.org], this release also featured significant improvements to the JavaScript Debugger [mozilla.org] and a new full-screen mode for Linux. Meanwhile, Chimera hit version 0.4 [slashdot.org] and a new stable version of Bugzilla was released [google.com].

There were releases galore in August: the final version of Mozilla 1.1 [slashdot.org] came out, adding a View Selection Source feature, separate icons for the different types of windows and an option to view HTML mail as plain text.

AOL were also in the mood for releases, launching both the shipping version of Netscape 7.0 [slashdot.org] and a new Gecko-based AOL client for Mac OS X [slashdot.org].

September brought the release of both Mozilla 1.0.1 [slashdot.org] and Mozilla 1.2 Alpha [slashdot.org]. New versions of Mozilla Calendar [slashdot.org], Chimera [slashdot.org] and the IBM Web Browser for OS/2 [slashdot.org] were also made available.

In other news, the mozilla/browser project, now relaunched as Phoenix [mozilla.org], started producing nightly builds [slashdot.org] and the team released their first milestone [slashdot.org] shortly after.

mozdev [mozdev.org], the hosting site for third-party Mozilla projects, celebrated its second anniversary [slashdot.org] in September. mozdev also began hosting the online edition of Creating Applications with Mozilla [slashdot.org], a new book which was launched on September 24th.

The Phoenix team were busy in October, releasing versions 0.2 [slashdot.org], 0.3 [slashdot.org] and 0.4 [slashdot.org] in quick succession. Meanwhile, Mitchell Baker affirmed mozilla.org's commitment to the project [slashdot.org].

Mozilla 1.2 Beta [slashdot.org] was also launched in October, bringing with it link prefetching [mozilla.org] and many filtering improvements. Meanwhile, the Windows K-Meleon browser had its first release for a year [slashdot.org] and the Galeon team unveiled Galeon 1.3.0 [slashdot.org]. Almost a complete rewrite of the GTK browser, this development build was the first to be based on GNOME 2 and the Mozilla GTK 2 port.

Finally, October was also the month that Neil Deakin [xulplanet.com]'s 101 things that the Mozilla browser can do that IE cannot [xulplanet.com] document started doing the rounds. It eventually ended up on both Slashdot [slashdot.org] and CNET News.com [com.com].

In November, it was announced that Phoenix would have to renamed [slashdot.org]. An appeal for a new name received an overwhelming response; so far, there have been over 1,200 posts to the official name suggestion thread [slashdot.org].

There were several new releases in November, including Mozilla 1.2 [slashdot.org] and Chimera 0.6 [slashdot.org]. Mail Newsgroups also continued its journey to world domination, gaining sophisticated Bayesian junk mail classification [slashdot.org] capabilities.

Changes were afoot in the final month of the year, as the Classic Mac OS Mozilla builds began their transition to port status [slashdot.org]. Meanwhile, Phoenix users got a double Christmas present: not only was Phoenix 0.5 released [slashdot.org], a new default theme was also checked in [slashdot.org].

As proof that everybody makes mistakes, mozilla.org announced that there was a DHTML problem in the Mozilla 1.2 builds [slashdot.org] which were released at the end of November. The bug was quickly fixed and a revised Mozilla 1.2.1 [slashdot.org] was uploaded a few days later. Back on the trunk, the first alpha build of Mozilla 1.3 [slashdot.org] was released, featuring a raft of new Mail Newsgroups enhancements.

Netscape broke new ground in December with the launch of Netscape 7.01 [slashdot.org], which included an integrated pop-up blocker. It wasn't all good news in Mountain View though: layoffs throughout AOL affected the browser producer but not as drastically as some press reports suggested.

End of year figures suggest that Mozilla-based browsers have a 1.7 percent market share [slashdot.org] and that Mozilla has now overtaken Opera as the third most popular browser. We hope and expect that Mozilla will build upon these successes in 2003, the project's fifth year. As always, MozillaZine will be there all the way to provide in-depth coverage of one of the planet's most exciting open source projects. We would like to wish all our readers a Happy New Year and hope to see a lot more of you in the coming twelve months.

Got a response? TalkBack! [slashdot.org]

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA article reads you (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994326)

Sorry about the messed up links in this, a lot of them were relative as opposed to absolute.

I used IE (5, Informative)

Apreche (239272) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994309)

for the longest time. I would load up Moz if I was browsing in pop-up land, but it was slow and used a lot of memory (and my cpu sucks) so I used IE for my daily browsing. Then I discovered phoenix, holy crap. I wrote a whole thing about phoenix's amazingness in my journal, so there's no reason to repeat it here. But it has made a significant positive impact on my daily routine.

Re:I used IE (3, Informative)

Jucius Maximus (229128) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994317)

"for the longest time. I would load up Moz if I was browsing in pop-up land, but it was slow and used a lot of memory (and my cpu sucks) so I used IE for my daily browsing. Then I discovered phoenix, holy crap."

If you haven't done it yet, check out Opera as well. Although I find phoenix very alluring, Opera is still king in the low resource / high speed / high efficiency department.

Re:I used IE (2, Insightful)

Narchie Troll (581273) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994331)

And in the price department, too. A few CPU cycles isn't enough for me to justify spending money at a browser, especially when great software like Galeon and Phoenix exists.

Re:I used IE (1)

Jucius Maximus (229128) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994444)

"And in the price department, too. A few CPU cycles isn't enough for me to justify spending money at a browser, especially when great software like Galeon and Phoenix exists."

Good point, I guess that I've just gotten used to the banner in the free version.

Re: Opera (2)

bunratty (545641) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994493)

I'd recommend sticking with Opera 7 [opera.com], even though it's still in beta, if you want to try Opera. It's way more standards-compliant than previous versions. Opera 7 even has better CSS2 support [xs4all.nl] than any other browser according to some.

Re:I used IE (2, Insightful)

mat catastrophe (105256) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994400)

Sadly, I too use IE most of the time. Mostly because my box simply doesn't handle the newer Mozilla based browsers well. (If anyone has any 72-pin chips lying around, you can get in touch with me, seriously).

Where was i? Oh, yea, I think that Mozilla is a superior browser, it's more (what's that buzzword?) robust than IE and it seemingly does things right. But even phoenix is a little slow to load for me, and although I am about to check out the Beonex Communicator, I don't have much faith it'll run any better.

Which brings me, finally, to the point of this post. Developers have always been forgetful of the simple fact that not every one in the world gets a new computer, or even an upgrade, every six months. It's nice to see a "lite" browser, but only if it's really light and not just "requires only a Pentium3/64MB RAM" - that's not light at all for me, or about two-thirds of the people I know. We use older machines because we either love them or can't afford anything new and shiny.

And if none of this makes sense, blame the alcohol my liver's still dealing with.

Red star on that zeppelin (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994310)

Check out the zeppelin logo on Mozillazine www-pages!

A red star is painted on that zeppelin! RED STAR - why the hell? Communists in China and Russia are using red star -logos even today. So does this mean that Mozilla is the communist choice?

Re:Red star on that zeppelin (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994321)

I'm sure it would be. It's free, by the people for the people. A real worker's utopia, ya know?

No (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994346)

The zeppelin symbolizes Mozilla's bloat. The red star is merely Mozilla's logo.

The terrorists would most likely use other [konqueror.org] browsers [sourceforge.net]

And the French are using. . . (2)

kfg (145172) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994447)

Red,White and Blue stripes.

You had a point in there somewhere, or what?

I'm sorry, but sympathetic magic doesn't work.


Re:Red star on that zeppelin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994731)

There is more than just that zeplin. Much of the artwork in the Mozilla logos and "posters" use a type of art popular in the 30's that was seen in many places, including Soviet propaganda and in American posters. Searching newsgroups a while back, I never found why the red theme is used (e.g. here [mozilla.org]. Some say it is a joke or parody of the people's revolution, while others argue that it is not a parody of anything.
Many people have submitted new logos, but most have been rejected by someone for some reason. Somehow people argue that the red star is as innocent as any pentogram, but if that is the case, why not use the "innocent" swastika as a logo? WTF is a reoccuring theme in the newsgroups. Search google groups [google.com] for many discussions on the red theme.

I finally dropped IE for Moz this year... (4, Informative)

Kethinov (636034) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994327)

Mozilla is coming along nicely. I've recommended it as an alternative to IE to all my friends and family. No popups and tabbed browing has me hooked :)

I just started .... (4, Interesting)

craenor (623901) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994336)

Using Mozilla, and I love it. There's only one small problem. I really miss being able to click my mouse wheel and move the mouse up and down to scroll through the page faster.

Re:I just started .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994352)

Contact the Mozilla dev team (e-mail can be found somewhere in www.mozilla.org) and suggest this feature improvement. It will then be implemented within 2 months, I'm sure about that.

Re:I just started .... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994370)

"There's only one small problem. I really miss being able to click my mouse wheel and move the mouse up and down to scroll through the page faster."

Then you'll be wanting the AutoScroll add-in (currently still in beta). You can get it here [mozdev.org]. There's a little more information in this MozillaZine article [mozillazine.org].

Re:I just started .... (1)

Soul-Burn666 (574119) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994584)

Oh man.. I don't know what people find in that, it's just too uncontrolled for me. I prefer the simple mouse-wheel / pgup-pgdn scrolling anyday.

Konqueror = Deadzilla (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994353)

Try it, you will uninstall mozilla from konquerors built in xterm!

Re:Konqueror = Deadzilla (1)

Luke-Jr (574047) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994393)

Can't seem to get the same toolbar settings that Mozilla has in Konqueror.
For example:
Back, Fwd, Reload, Stop, LocationBar
Home, Bookmarks, PTF Item 1, PTF Item 2, ...
New Tab, Tab 1, Tab 2, ..., Close Tab

Re:Konqueror = Deadzilla (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994609)

But who wants KDE? If you want KEverything, go back to Windows. They've got it beat by several years.

Re:Konqueror = Deadzilla (4, Insightful)

bogie (31020) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994691)

No offense to Konq but doesn't really measure up to either Mozilla or Phoenix. For quick and dirty web browsing it may be fine, but only a diehard kde user(and I am one) would think of saying it trumps Moz/Phoenix. Of course to each his own, but I think most people would disagree. I certainly don't feel the need to make a list, but if I did the fact that konq only runs on linux makes it a non-starter for both the majority of home users and of course corporate users who usually have a mix of windows, linux, and Macs.

Technical advancement not the issue. (5, Insightful)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994367)

I use Mozilla. I mostly like Mozilla.

But, starting with 1.0, technical advancement just is no longer the issue for Mozilla. Open Source projects have the proven capacity to nominally pace their commerial counterparts' new features and to do so with a much more sane and better-written approach.

No, the problem is really one of adaptation: Once it's build, once it's available, how do you make people come and use it? Let's not fool ourselves; even OSS's favorite son (Linux) didn't succeed in the arena that Mozilla must, and Linux can't really help Mozilla where it needs it.

This is going to be the key question in the next five years: How do you even distribute better software? How do you even *give away* better products? We've already *seen* the "download and use it" scheme fail when competing against a product which is already on the desktop.

And don't kid yourself: We can't count on AOL's massive firepower on this one. This is the wrong time to expect AOL to help us; they're not in any position to make big changes. Besides, Netscape is not Mozilla.

This is something we have to answer and answer well in the coming year, and I mean the next couple, not the next ten.

Not Mozilla's problem (1, Informative)

Moderator (189749) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994417)

But, starting with 1.0, technical advancement just is no longer the issue for Mozilla. Open Source projects have the proven capacity to nominally pace their commerial counterparts' new features and to do so with a much more sane and better-written approach.

The main focus of the Mozilla project is and always will be software development. It's up to the Mozilla based distributions (Chimera, KMeleon, Phoenix, Netscape, Beonex, etc.) to worry about marketing and distribution.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (1)

Apreche (239272) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994431)

The same way winzip does. Winzip is free, yet everyone and their mother has it on their computers. Winamp is the same way. Do what they do.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (1)

friedegg (96310) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994445)

WinZip [winzip.com] is shareware [winzip.com], actually.
Now that Windows XP has built-in basic zip functionality, I wonder how many people will continue to download WinZip?

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (2, Interesting)

Soul-Burn666 (574119) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994567)

XP has a built-in zip functionality? Didn't know that......

I know XP has a built-in image viewer, yet most people prefer downloading ACDSee instead.

XP has MSN Msngr in it. Yet people prefer ICQ.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (1)

friedegg (96310) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994640)

I can't say I've ever used ACDSee myself. I'm happy with the image viewing Mozilla provides, and I know lots of people that just use the IE viewing.

ICQ has a "feature" that Messenger can't easily reproduce: the userbase. Many millions of people already use ICQ (and AIM), and it takes a while to build up that sort of userbase with people exchanging their info. There's no doubt that Microsoft is building a userbase though. Personally, ICQ got way too big for my tastes. ICQ Lite was a step in the right direction.

Some people will always prefer third party products because they provide more/different functionality. However, there are MANY people who are happy with what comes with the computer. There are even people that use Wordpad for their word processing needs.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (1)

Soul-Burn666 (574119) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994699)

They are happy with what comes with their computer because they don't need to choose between several options....

Btw, Do you load up Mozilla every time you wish to view images on your PC? Isn't that a bit of an overkill? Also, can you browse/navigate images in it? Zoom in out?

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (3, Insightful)

oscarcar (208055) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994451)

I have one word for you: Broadband

That will change everything about distribution.
How much you want to bet that the vast majority of people using Mozilla, downloaded it on a broadband connection?

Limited bandwidth is definitely the biggest "barrier to entry" in this market.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (2)

rmohr02 (208447) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994544)

Well, at college I can download a Mozilla nightly build in about two minutes. At home, it takes half an hour, at least. But no matter where I am, I use the newest nightly build. I just download it overnight, and install in the morning at home.

Of course, I'm already hooked on Mozilla. People not hooked may not be willing to spend half an hour downloading a browser, and they certainly won't do it every night.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994472)

...even OSS's favorite son (Linux) didn't succeed in the arena that Mozilla must...

Over five years ago, people were proclaiming that Linux "had failed" to make a dent in the server market.

Don't count the game over until it's really over, and perhaps not even then.

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994499)

The common answer to this is "Mozilla is not for end users". Bah! There's no point in developing the thing if it ain't for end users. Please read "The 'Mozilla is so for end users' FAQ" [phrasewise.com]

To make the long story short, mozilla.org doesn't want to promote mozilla.org Mozilla builds, because Netscape pays the bill, so they want to direct people to Netscape instead. This is understandable, but it doesn't mean Mozilla-based browsers don't need users or that the Mozilla technologies are not intended to fall into the hand of end users.

So how are Gecko-based browsers going to be successful?

  • Chimera is the best OS X browser. If you are using OS X and aren't using it yet, give it a try. (Remember to update the Flash plug-in, though, to avoid a crasher in the version of Flash plug-in that came with the OS.)
  • Mozilla and Galeon come by default with Red Hat and Debian. Galeon rocks. If you are still using Netscape 4.x on Linux, it is time to upgrade.
  • If you are on a *nix platform that doesn't have Galeon, consider using Mozilla or porting Galeon or Phoenix to your platform.
  • But the key to market share is Windows. AOL could do a lot if they just used Gecko in AOL for Windows. What's holding them back? They already use it on OS X and in Compuserve.

mozilla...jwz...The Fork. Three degrees! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994513)

No, the problem is really one of adaptation: Once it's build, once it's available, how do you make people come and use it?


See users switch. Switch, users, switch! See RMS fume. Fume, RMS, fume.

If you have to brainstorm ways of getting users to switch to your very-slightly-different application, the game is already over and you lost.

No popups, no Javascript, no 0wN0RZing. When Mozilla gets better than IE 3.0, call me. And please shut up about the tabs. Hide task bar much?

Re:Technical advancement not the issue. (5, Insightful)

ostiguy (63618) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994565)

Its just software. Its not about global conquest.

If AOL adopts it, and then within 1 yr 20% of american web surfers are using the gecko engine, then everyone will need to adhere more closely to standards, and life will be grand.

Get worked up over standards, not about achieving global dominance.


and the MUA functionality is still broken (2)

Lazy Jones (8403) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994379)

AMAZING! Still doesn't sort headers properly when you change mailboxes etc. etc. ...

Mozilla is bloated! I downloaded it and it was (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994403)

this big!

four quadringentsexoctogintillion, seven hundred eighty two quadringentquinoctogintilliard, two hundred two quadringentquinoctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight quadringentquattuoroctogintilliard, fifty four quadringentquattuoroctogintillion, six hundred twelve quadringenttreoctogintilliard, twenty nine quadringenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty eight quadringentdooctogintilliard, three hundred ninety two quadringentdooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty six quadringentunoctogintilliard, six hundred quadringentunoctogintillion, fifty nine quadringentoctogintilliard, ninety seven quadringentoctogintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred seventy one quadringentnovemseptuagintillion, seven hundred twenty four quadringentoctoseptuagintilliard, twenty two quadringentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred sixty five quadringentseptenseptuagintilliard, eight quadringentseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred thirteen quadringentsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty five quadringentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred nine quadringentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred eighteen quadringentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy eight quadringentquattuorseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty quadringentquattuorseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty two quadringenttreseptuagintilliard, six hundred sixty two quadringenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy quadringentdoseptuagintilliard, two hundred seventy eight quadringentdoseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty seven quadringentunseptuagintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentunseptuagintillion, one hundred twelve quadringentseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seven quadringentseptuagintillion, eight hundred ninety four quadringentnovemsexagintilliard, five hundred eighty six quadringentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four quadringentoctosexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty quadringentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred eighty one quadringentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four quadringentseptensexagintillion, two hundred fifty six quadringentsexsexagintilliard, three hundred nineteen quadringentsexsexagintillion, three hundred six quadringentquinsexagintilliard, five hundred eighty five quadringentquinsexagintillion, fifty two quadringentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred seventy six quadringentquattuorsexagintillion, eight hundred thirty four quadringenttresexagintilliard, eighty seven quadringenttresexagintillion, four hundred eighty quadringentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four quadringentdosexagintillion, four hundred twenty nine quadringentunsexagintilliard, four hundred thirty three quadringentunsexagintillion, two hundred sixty four quadringentsexagintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quadringentsexagintillion, four hundred twenty five quadringentnovemquinquagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three quadringentnovemquinquagintillion, two hundred forty seven quadringentoctoquinquagintilliard, six hundred twenty three quadringentoctoquinquagintillion, six hundred eighty eight quadringentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred thirty one quadringentseptenquinquagintillion, twenty one quadringentsexquinquagintilliard, six hundred thirty three quadringentsexquinquagintillion, two hundred eight quadringentquinquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty four quadringentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred forty seven quadringentquattuorquinquagintilliard, three hundred fifty four quadringentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred five quadringenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred ninety nine quadringenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred forty three quadringentdoquinquagintilliard, three hundred forty one quadringentdoquinquagintillion, three hundred nine quadringentunquinquagintilliard, eight hundred twenty five quadringentunquinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty nine quadringentquinquagintilliard, thirteen quadringentquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty three quadringentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred six quadringentnovemquadragintillion, one hundred eighty seven quadringentoctoquadragintilliard, one hundred nine quadringentoctoquadragintillion, five hundred eighty one quadringentseptenquadragintilliard, forty three quadringentseptenquadragintillion, one hundred forty eight quadringentsexquadragintilliard, six hundred eighty quadringentsexquadragintillion, eight hundred thirteen quadringentquinquadragintilliard, seven hundred seventy eight quadringentquinquadragintillion, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty quadringentquattuorquadragintillion, four hundred ninety six quadringenttrequadragintilliard, seven hundred fifteen quadringenttrequadragintillion, six hundred one quadringentdoquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty three quadringentdoquadragintillion, two hundred eighty two quadringentunquadragintilliard, six hundred twenty four quadringentunquadragintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentquadragintilliard, forty quadringentquadragintillion, three hundred ninety eight quadringentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred forty three quadringentnovemtrigintillion, two hundred seven quadringentoctotrigintilliard, six hundred twenty two quadringentoctotrigintillion, thirty six quadringentseptentrigintilliard, two hundred seventy two quadringentseptentrigintillion, one hundred ninety quadringentsextrigintilliard, four hundred eight quadringentsextrigintillion, five hundred ninety quadringentquintrigintilliard, seven hundred ninety quadringentquintrigintillion, five hundred thirty seven quadringentquattuortrigintilliard, two hundred three quadringentquattuortrigintillion, four hundred seventy five quadringenttretrigintilliard, two hundred fifty six quadringenttretrigintillion, one hundred five quadringentdotrigintilliard, five hundred sixty four quadringentdotrigintillion, seventy one quadringentuntrigintilliard, five hundred seventy nine quadringentuntrigintillion, two hundred sixty three quadringenttrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty seven quadringenttrigintillion, eight hundred seventy five quadringentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred forty quadringentnovemvigintillion, nine hundred eighty five quadringentoctovigintilliard, five hundred seventy three quadringentoctovigintillion, three hundred fifty six quadringentseptenvigintilliard, five hundred twenty two quadringentseptenvigintillion, six hundred fifty six quadringentsexvigintilliard, one hundred eight quadringentsexvigintillion, five hundred forty two quadringentquinvigintilliard, one hundred twenty eight quadringentquinvigintillion, five hundred seventy seven quadringentquattuorvigintilliard, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorvigintillion, fifty seven quadringenttrevigintilliard, eight hundred seventy nine quadringenttrevigintillion, fifty two quadringentdovigintilliard, three hundred twenty eight quadringentdovigintillion, eight hundred sixty five quadringentunvigintilliard, thirty five quadringentunvigintillion, three hundred fifty five quadringentvigintilliard, eight hundred seventy three quadringentvigintillion, six hundred fifteen quadringentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy nine quadringentnovemdecillion, three hundred sixty three quadringentoctodecilliard, six hundred fifty five quadringentoctodecillion, eight hundred eighty nine quadringentseptendecilliard, nine hundred twenty five quadringentseptendecillion, seven hundred eleven quadringentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy four quadringentsexdecillion, four hundred twenty quadringentquindecilliard, one hundred fifty three quadringentquindecillion, eight hundred thirty two quadringentquattuordecilliard, ninety one quadringentquattuordecillion, seven hundred fifty two quadringenttredecilliard, four hundred twenty two quadringenttredecillion, eight hundred forty three quadringentdodecilliard, forty six quadringentdodecillion, nine hundred eighteen quadringentundecilliard, eight hundred eleven quadringentundecillion, four hundred twenty seven quadringentdecilliard, four hundred quadringentdecillion, six hundred sixty two quadringentnovemtilliard, one hundred thirty five quadringentnovemtillion, five hundred fifty nine quadringentoctotilliard, three hundred three quadringentoctotillion, five hundred sixteen quadringentseptentilliard, eight hundred fifty three quadringentseptentillion, seven hundred three quadringentsextilliard, nine hundred seventy six quadringentsextillion, eight hundred twelve quadringentquintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentquintillion, three hundred eighty five quadringentquattuortilliard, seven hundred fifty quadringentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy six quadringenttretilliard, two hundred twenty seven quadringenttretillion, seven hundred eighty seven quadringentdotilliard, nine hundred forty nine quadringentdotillion, five hundred eighty quadringentuntilliard, five hundred eighty two quadringentuntillion, eighty one quadringentilliard, eight hundred thirty one quadringentillion, two hundred sixty one trecentnovemnonagintilliard, seven hundred twenty five trecentnovemnonagintillion, seven hundred one trecentoctononagintilliard, three trecentoctononagintillion, four hundred ninety eight trecentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred six trecentseptennonagintillion, five hundred twelve trecentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred twenty nine trecentsexnonagintillion, eight hundred seventy two trecentquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy seven trecentquinnonagintillion, two hundred thirty three trecentquattuornonagintilliard, four hundred eighty nine trecentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ten trecenttrenonagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecenttrenonagintillion, four hundred sixty nine trecentdononagintilliard, three hundred seventy five trecentdononagintillion, six hundred eighty three trecentunnonagintilliard, thirty seven trecentunnonagintillion, thirty eight trecentnonagintilliard, three hundred seventy three trecentnonagintillion, nine hundred ninety nine trecentnovemoctogintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentnovemoctogintillion, seven hundred seventy one trecentoctooctogintilliard, five hundred eighty five trecentoctooctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight trecentseptenoctogintilliard, nine hundred five trecentseptenoctogintillion, six hundred thirty nine trecentsexoctogintilliard, one hundred fifteen trecentsexoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two trecentquinoctogintilliard, six hundred thirteen trecentquinoctogintillion, four hundred five trecentquattuoroctogintilliard, four hundred ninety five trecentquattuoroctogintillion, seven hundred seven trecenttreoctogintilliard, one hundred eighty four trecenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentdooctogintilliard, one hundred fifty eight trecentdooctogintillion, two hundred nineteen trecentunoctogintilliard, two hundred eight trecentunoctogintillion, two hundred twenty three trecentoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty six trecentoctogintillion, four hundred forty two trecentnovemseptuagintilliard, fifty nine trecentnovemseptuagintillion, fourteen trecentoctoseptuagintilliard, five hundred ninety three trecentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred thirty trecentseptenseptuagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven trecentseptenseptuagintillion, nine trecentsexseptuagintilliard, seven hundred twenty two trecentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred fifty three trecentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two trecentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy six trecentquattuorseptuagintilliard, eight hundred fifty three trecentquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred twenty three trecenttreseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seventy trecenttreseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty six trecentdoseptuagintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentdoseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy eight trecentunseptuagintilliard, eighty nine trecentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five trecentseptuagintilliard, six hundred twenty one trecentseptuagintillion, three hundred one trecentnovemsexagintilliard, one hundred sixty seven trecentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred eleven trecentoctosexagintilliard, two hundred ninety nine trecentoctosexagintillion, one hundred sixty six trecentseptensexagintilliard, four hundred seven trecentseptensexagintillion, three hundred sixty one trecentsexsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty six trecentsexsexagintillion, six hundred six trecentquinsexagintilliard, six hundred ninety seven trecentquinsexagintillion, eight hundred eight trecentquattuorsexagintilliard, one hundred eighty six trecentquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred fifty seven trecenttresexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty six trecenttresexagintillion, nine hundred fourteen trecentdosexagintilliard, six hundred seventy one trecentdosexagintillion, two hundred forty six trecentunsexagintilliard, seventy three trecentunsexagintillion, seven hundred twelve trecentsexagintilliard, nine hundred four trecentsexagintillion, two hundred trecentnovemquinquagintilliard, five hundred eighty eight trecentnovemquinquagintillion, four hundred eight trecentoctoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred twenty three trecentoctoquinquagintillion, one hundred eighty six trecentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred eighty seven trecentseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty seven trecentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven trecentsexquinquagintillion, six hundred seventy five trecentquinquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety two trecentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred eighty six trecentquattuorquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecentquattuorquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety seven trecenttrequinquagintilliard, sixty six trecenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty trecentdoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven trecentdoquinquagintillion, four hundred six trecentunquinquagintilliard, fifty three trecentunquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty trecentquinquagintilliard, one hundred twenty two trecentquinquagintillion, eight hundred fifty three trecentnovemquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty nine trecentnovemquadragintillion, thirty six trecentoctoquadragintilliard, nine hundred sixty five trecentoctoquadragintillion, four hundred ninety trecentseptenquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty four trecentseptenquadragintillion, seven hundred eighty four trecentsexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty four trecentsexquadragintillion, six hundred forty nine trecentquinquadragintilliard, seven trecentquinquadragintillion, nine hundred fifty four trecentquattuorquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety eight trecentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred seventy eight trecenttrequadragintilliard, five hundred three trecenttrequadragintillion, three hundred fourteen trecentdoquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty five trecentdoquadragintillion, five hundred forty six trecentunquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy five trecentunquadragintillion, five hundred four trecentquadragintilliard, five hundred one trecentquadragintillion, six hundred eighty six trecentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred eighty seven trecentnovemtrigintillion, three hundred fifty four trecentoctotrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty six trecentoctotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty four trecentseptentrigintilliard, three hundred seventy four trecentseptentrigintillion, five hundred fifty two trecentsextrigintilliard, six hundred fourteen trecentsextrigintillion, one hundred twenty trecentquintrigintilliard, six hundred forty trecentquintrigintillion, seven hundred eighty two trecentquattuortrigintilliard, nine hundred forty nine trecentquattuortrigintillion, six hundred twenty two trecenttretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty two trecenttretrigintillion, twenty seven trecentdotrigintilliard, seven hundred eighty eight trecentdotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty two trecentuntrigintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentuntrigintillion, six hundred two trecenttrigintilliard, six hundred sixty five trecenttrigintillion, nine hundred thirty three trecentnovemvigintilliard, one hundred forty seven trecentnovemvigintillion, six hundred eighty seven trecentoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentoctovigintillion, three hundred twenty two trecentseptenvigintilliard, eighty nine trecentseptenvigintillion, five hundred four trecentsexvigintilliard, two hundred seventy eight trecentsexvigintillion, seven hundred ninety one trecentquinvigintilliard, six hundred twenty four trecentquinvigintillion, six hundred fifty one trecentquattuorvigintilliard, five hundred nineteen trecentquattuorvigintillion, three hundred twelve trecenttrevigintilliard, three hundred twenty seven trecenttrevigintillion, eight hundred thirty one trecentdovigintilliard, seven hundred fifty six trecentdovigintillion, five hundred fifty three trecentunvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy nine trecentunvigintillion, three hundred seventy seven trecentvigintilliard, one hundred ninety four trecentvigintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy three trecentnovemdecillion, three hundred ninety five trecentoctodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen trecentoctodecillion, two hundred eighty one trecentseptendecilliard, four hundred eighty six trecentseptendecillion, six hundred sixty eight trecentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy six trecentsexdecillion, three hundred eighty four trecentquindecilliard, nineteen trecentquindecillion, five hundred ninety trecentquattuordecilliard, seven hundred twenty trecentquattuordecillion, one hundred seventy nine trecenttredecilliard, four hundred thirteen trecenttredecillion, three hundred forty nine trecentdodecilliard, five hundred eighty two trecentdodecillion, nine hundred seventy trecentundecilliard, three hundred nineteen trecentundecillion, three hundred ninety three trecentdecilliard, eight hundred eighty four trecentdecillion, three hundred eighty eight trecentnovemtilliard, eight hundred ten trecentnovemtillion, four hundred ninety four trecentoctotilliard, five hundred forty six trecentoctotillion, forty trecentseptentilliard, three hundred forty two trecentseptentillion, eighty seven trecentsextilliard, five hundred thirty six trecentsextillion, five hundred sixty three trecentquintilliard, six hundred twenty eight trecentquintillion, three hundred thirty two trecentquattuortilliard, one hundred fifty two trecentquattuortillion, seventy three trecenttretilliard, one hundred eighty one trecenttretillion, six hundred fourteen trecentdotilliard, three hundred trecentdotillion, seven hundred twenty one trecentuntilliard, seven hundred sixty nine trecentuntillion, three hundred seventy one trecentilliard, four hundred twenty six trecentillion, two hundred thirty eight ducentnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventeen ducentnovemnonagintillion, five hundred forty ducentoctononagintilliard, five hundred twenty ducentoctononagintillion, eight hundred forty five ducentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred fourteen ducentseptennonagintillion, six hundred sixty five ducentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred thirteen ducentsexnonagintillion, three hundred one ducentquinnonagintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducentquinnonagintillion, five hundred fifty one ducentquattuornonagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two ducentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ninety one ducenttrenonagintilliard, eight hundred forty nine ducenttrenonagintillion, five hundred fifty eight ducentdononagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight ducentdononagintillion, four hundred ninety nine ducentunnonagintilliard, twenty five ducentunnonagintillion, three hundred forty eight ducentnonagintilliard, seven hundred eighty ducentnonagintillion, three hundred seventy six ducentnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentnovemoctogintillion, four hundred seventy seven ducentoctooctogintilliard, seventy three ducentoctooctogintillion, nine hundred thirty ducentseptenoctogintilliard, six hundred thirty four ducentseptenoctogintillion, four hundred thirty six ducentsexoctogintilliard, eight hundred forty ducentsexoctogintillion, eighty four ducentquinoctogintilliard, four hundred sixty eight ducentquinoctogintillion, two hundred fifty five ducentquattuoroctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty seven ducentquattuoroctogintillion, four hundred forty three ducenttreoctogintilliard, four hundred fifty one ducenttreoctogintillion, six hundred ninety ducentdooctogintilliard, three hundred fifteen ducentdooctogintillion, nine hundred ninety nine ducentunoctogintilliard, three hundred forty nine ducentunoctogintillion, one hundred thirty seven ducentoctogintilliard, six hundred sixty four ducentoctogintillion, six hundred thirty eight ducentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight ducentnovemseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy two ducentoctoseptuagintilliard, six hundred fourteen ducentoctoseptuagintillion, one hundred ninety nine ducentseptenseptuagintilliard, fifteen ducentseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred four ducentsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred six ducentsexseptuagintillion, five hundred forty seven ducentquinseptuagintilliard, eight hundred nineteen ducentquinseptuagintillion, fifty six ducentquattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty seven ducentquattuorseptuagintillion, one hundred seventy one ducenttreseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty four ducenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentdoseptuagintilliard, seventy ducentdoseptuagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine ducentunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentunseptuagintillion, three hundred ducentseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three ducentseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five ducentnovemsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty three ducentnovemsexagintillion, four hundred forty one ducentoctosexagintilliard, three hundred seven ducentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred twenty ducentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred one ducentseptensexagintillion, eight hundred sixty three ducentsexsexagintilliard, five hundred thirty two ducentsexsexagintillion, two hundred thirty four ducentquinsexagintilliard, four hundred sixty six ducentquinsexagintillion, five hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintillion, six hundred ninety five ducenttresexagintilliard, seven hundred seventy four ducenttresexagintillion, three hundred thirty one ducentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred eighty five ducentdosexagintillion, forty four ducentunsexagintilliard, nine hundred seventy eight ducentunsexagintillion, two hundred fifty ducentsexagintilliard, one hundred forty eight ducentsexagintillion, six hundred sixty three ducentnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred sixty seven ducentnovemquinquagintillion, three hundred seventy two ducentoctoquinquagintilliard, one hundred thirty ducentoctoquinquagintillion, three hundred ninety two ducentseptenquinquagintilliard, ninety nine ducentseptenquinquagintillion, eight hundred ninety four ducentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two ducentsexquinquagintillion, one hundred forty five ducentquinquinquagintilliard, one hundred ninety ducentquinquinquagintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquattuorquinquagintilliard, two hundred thirty two ducentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy eight ducenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred seventy two ducenttrequinquagintillion, four hundred eighty six ducentdoquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty ducentdoquinquagintillion, five hundred thirteen ducentunquinquagintilliard, ten ducentunquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixteen ducentquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine ducentquinquagintillion, nine hundred two ducentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety two ducentnovemquadragintillion, five hundred eighteen ducentoctoquadragintilliard, seven hundred nineteen ducentoctoquadragintillion, two hundred fifty ducentseptenquadragintilliard, sixty six ducentseptenquadragintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentsexquadragintilliard, two hundred fifteen ducentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred six ducentquinquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty six ducentquinquadragintillion, two hundred sixteen ducentquattuorquadragintilliard, two hundred forty eight ducentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred ninety six ducenttrequadragintilliard, two hundred forty ducenttrequadragintillion, five hundred sixty nine ducentdoquadragintilliard, two hundred fifty six ducentdoquadragintillion, eight hundred sixty five ducentunquadragintilliard, five hundred fifty four ducentunquadragintillion, two hundred ninety six ducentquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty one ducentquadragintillion, five hundred fifty two ducentnovemtrigintilliard, two hundred eleven ducentnovemtrigintillion, five hundred sixty ducentoctotrigintilliard, four hundred twenty seven ducentoctotrigintillion, seven hundred seventy eight ducentseptentrigintilliard, six hundred sixty two ducentseptentrigintillion, five hundred forty five ducentsextrigintilliard, nine hundred thirty six ducentsextrigintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquintrigintilliard, eight hundred one ducentquintrigintillion, seventy ducentquattuortrigintilliard, one hundred eighty six ducentquattuortrigintillion, one hundred sixty two ducenttretrigintilliard, six hundred one ducenttretrigintillion, four hundred seventy six ducentdotrigintilliard, four hundred seventy four ducentdotrigintillion, two hundred ninety three ducentuntrigintilliard, four hundred fifty nine ducentuntrigintillion, eight hundred thirty ducenttrigintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducenttrigintillion, six hundred fifty one ducentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred seventy three ducentnovemvigintillion, three hundred sixty three ducentoctovigintilliard, four hundred sixty two ducentoctovigintillion, seven hundred thirty two ducentseptenvigintilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptenvigintillion, eight hundred eighty three ducentsexvigintilliard, sixty ducentsexvigintillion, seven hundred one ducentquinvigintilliard, four hundred ten ducentquinvigintillion, three hundred fifty nine ducentquattuorvigintilliard, two hundred fifty four ducentquattuorvigintillion, eight hundred twenty nine ducenttrevigintilliard, one hundred forty nine ducenttrevigintillion, seven hundred seventy four ducentdovigintilliard, three hundred thirty nine ducentdovigintillion, two hundred ninety seven ducentunvigintilliard, one hundred seventy three ducentunvigintillion, six hundred eighty ducentvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty five ducentvigintillion, six hundred ten ducentnovemdecilliard, nine hundred fifty nine ducentnovemdecillion, five hundred ninety nine ducentoctodecilliard, nine hundred eleven ducentoctodecillion, three hundred nine ducentseptendecilliard, one hundred eighty nine ducentseptendecillion, seven hundred eighty eight ducentsexdecilliard, two hundred thirty eight ducentsexdecillion, three hundred fifty ducentquindecilliard, one hundred thirty one ducentquindecillion, six hundred thirty five ducentquattuordecilliard, six hundred seventy two ducentquattuordecillion, six hundred sixty one ducenttredecilliard, four hundred thirty five ducenttredecillion, nine hundred sixty nine ducentdodecilliard, two hundred eighteen ducentdodecillion, two hundred thirty nine ducentundecilliard, nine hundred seventy seven ducentundecillion, one hundred ninety six ducentdecilliard, nine hundred thirty three ducentdecillion, eight hundred seventy four ducentnovemtilliard, three hundred ninety five ducentnovemtillion, four hundred three ducentoctotilliard, nine hundred ninety six ducentoctotillion, six hundred twenty three ducentseptentilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptentillion, five hundred eighty ducentsextilliard, five hundred twenty eight ducentsextillion, two hundred eleven ducentquintilliard, two hundred seven ducentquintillion, one hundred thirty six ducentquattuortilliard, three hundred ninety six ducentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy ducenttretilliard, eight hundred fifty eight ducenttretillion, fifty six ducentdotilliard, fifty one ducentdotillion, one hundred sixty ducentuntilliard, seven hundred eighty one ducentuntillion, seven hundred seventy ducentilliard, nine hundred eighty five ducentillion, four hundred fifty two centnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventy six centnovemnonagintillion, nine hundred eighty eight centoctononagintilliard, thirty two centoctononagintillion, three hundred thirty three centseptennonagintilliard, eight hundred twelve centseptennonagintillion, nine hundred thirty nine centsexnonagintilliard, two hundred seventy two centsexnonagintillion, seven hundred fifty two centquinnonagintilliard, one hundred one centquinnonagintillion, nine hundred forty four centquattuornonagintilliard, six hundred twenty nine centquattuornonagintillion, five hundred twenty seven centtrenonagintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrenonagintillion, three hundred thirteen centdononagintilliard, eight hundred thirty five centdononagintillion, five hundred fifty one centunnonagintilliard, nine hundred eighty five centunnonagintillion, one hundred ninety seven centnonagintilliard, ninety five centnonagintillion, nine hundred twenty eight centnovemoctogintilliard, eight hundred eighty five centnovemoctogintillion, two hundred thirty six centoctooctogintilliard, four hundred fifteen centoctooctogintillion, three hundred one centseptenoctogintilliard, seven hundred eighty nine centseptenoctogintillion, two hundred eighteen centsexoctogintilliard, six hundred seventy five centsexoctogintillion, one hundred forty one centquinoctogintilliard, fourteen centquinoctogintillion, five hundred forty one centquattuoroctogintilliard, two hundred three centquattuoroctogintillion, ninety six centtreoctogintilliard, one hundred ninety one centtreoctogintillion, two hundred seventy centdooctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty four centdooctogintillion, three hundred sixty nine centunoctogintilliard, thirty nine centunoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two centoctogintilliard, ninety eight centoctogintillion, two hundred eighty centnovemseptuagintilliard, three hundred seventeen centnovemseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty eight centoctoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty two centoctoseptuagintillion, sixty one centseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred twenty five centseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy two centsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centsexseptuagintillion, six hundred forty three centquinseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty eight centquinseptuagintillion, four hundred three centquattuorseptuagintilliard, fifty six centquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty seven centtreseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centtreseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety centdoseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty four centdoseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty three centunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six centunseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety two centseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven centseptuagintillion, four hundred seventy two centnovemsexagintilliard, two hundred thirty one centnovemsexagintillion, two hundred nineteen centoctosexagintilliard, thirty two centoctosexagintillion, three hundred eighty five centseptensexagintilliard, two hundred eighty one centseptensexagintillion, thirty four centsexsexagintilliard, ninety one centsexsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four centquinsexagintilliard, three hundred six centquinsexagintillion, six hundred eighteen centquattuorsexagintilliard, nine hundred forty seven centquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred forty centtresexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty seven centtresexagintillion, two hundred sixty five centdosexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four centdosexagintillion, two hundred eighty four centunsexagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three centunsexagintillion, three hundred four centsexagintilliard, four hundred seventy four centsexagintillion, eight hundred sixty one centnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred fifty four centnovemquinquagintillion, nine hundred forty two centoctoquinquagintilliard, seventy six centoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety nine centseptenquinquagintilliard, forty one centseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine centsexquinquagintilliard, four hundred forty seven centsexquinquagintillion, one hundred sixty five centquinquinquagintilliard, eight hundred thirty eight centquinquinquagintillion, two hundred eighty one centquattuorquinquagintilliard, six hundred seventy one centquattuorquinquagintillion, four hundred ten centtrequinquagintilliard, four hundred thirty five centtrequinquagintillion, eight hundred thirty one centdoquinquagintilliard, two hundred six centdoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety centunquinquagintilliard, five hundred one centunquinquagintillion, nine hundred fourteen centquinquagintilliard, five hundred twenty seven centquinquagintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemquadragintilliard, two hundred eighty seven centnovemquadragintillion, three hundred seventy centoctoquadragintilliard, three hundred thirty nine centoctoquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy four centseptenquadragintilliard, seven hundred seven centseptenquadragintillion, two hundred six centsexquadragintilliard, sixteen centsexquadragintillion, eight hundred eighty two centquinquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty two centquinquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty seven centquattuorquadragintilliard, four hundred four centquattuorquadragintillion, two hundred seventy centtrequadragintilliard, one hundred seventy centtrequadragintillion, three hundred twenty two centdoquadragintilliard, six hundred six centdoquadragintillion, seven hundred twenty seven centunquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty centunquadragintillion, three hundred forty three centquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy nine centquadragintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemtrigintilliard, four hundred twenty five centnovemtrigintillion, seven hundred thirty centoctotrigintilliard, ninety one centoctotrigintillion, eight hundred thirty nine centseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred thirteen centseptentrigintillion, seventy seven centsextrigintilliard, seven hundred nineteen centsextrigintillion, three hundred twenty two centquintrigintilliard, four hundred fifty five centquintrigintillion, three hundred ninety four centquattuortrigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three centquattuortrigintillion, nine hundred sixty centtretrigintilliard, six hundred six centtretrigintillion, five hundred eighty eight centdotrigintilliard, two hundred fourteen centdotrigintillion, three hundred twenty six centuntrigintilliard, six hundred three centuntrigintillion, one hundred fifty six centtrigintilliard, one hundred forty one centtrigintillion, four hundred ninety centnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred forty centnovemvigintillion, five hundred fifty seven centoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety eight centoctovigintillion, fifty five centseptenvigintilliard, one hundred sixty six centseptenvigintillion, two hundred sixty three centsexvigintilliard, forty four centsexvigintillion, four hundred forty seven centquinvigintilliard, five hundred eighty three centquinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty six centquattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred eleven centquattuorvigintillion, five hundred sixteen centtrevigintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrevigintillion, one hundred eighty one centdovigintilliard, one hundred ninety three centdovigintillion, four hundred forty two centunvigintilliard, two hundred thirty six centunvigintillion, eight hundred fifty nine centvigintilliard, four hundred twenty four centvigintillion, one hundred fifty one centnovemdecilliard, eight hundred forty three centnovemdecillion, seven hundred ninety five centoctodecilliard, three hundred eighty nine centoctodecillion, three hundred thirty five centseptendecilliard, seven hundred sixty five centseptendecillion, four hundred thirty two centsexdecilliard, one hundred twenty nine centsexdecillion, nine hundred forty four centquindecilliard, fifty four centquindecillion, eight hundred fifty five centquattuordecilliard, three hundred forty five centquattuordecillion, one hundred fifty five centtredecilliard, eight hundred fifty nine centtredecillion, two hundred seventy three centdodecilliard, four hundred twenty four centdodecillion, five hundred sixty one centundecilliard, eight hundred twenty five centundecillion, one hundred forty six centdecilliard, eight hundred thirteen centdecillion, seven hundred fourteen centnovemtilliard, seven hundred twenty centnovemtillion, six hundred six centoctotilliard, two hundred eighty seven centoctotillion, seven hundred eighty one centseptentilliard, twenty one centseptentillion, two hundred forty centsextilliard, nine hundred twenty three centsextillion, seven hundred eight centquintilliard, twenty one centquintillion, four hundred ninety two centquattuortilliard, two hundred ninety eight centquattuortillion, three hundred forty nine centtretilliard, six hundred thirty five centtretillion, one hundred seventy nine centdotilliard, five hundred twenty seven centdotillion, two hundred seventy centuntilliard, three hundred two centuntillion, nine hundred sixty two centilliard, nine hundred seventy centillion, one hundred fifty six novemnonagintilliard, nine hundred twenty seven novemnonagintillion, six hundred eighty six octononagintilliard, five hundred eleven octononagintillion, six hundred thirty five septennonagintilliard, fifty septennonagintillion, eighty sexnonagintilliard, four hundred seven sexnonagintillion, two hundred eighty two quinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy four quinnonagintillion, two hundred fifty two quattuornonagintilliard, three hundred sixty two quattuornonagintillion, six hundred forty four trenonagintilliard, six hundred ninety five trenonagintillion, seven hundred ten dononagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine dononagintillion, seven hundred sixty eight unnonagintilliard, eight hundred sixty six unnonagintillion, one hundred thirty seven nonagintilliard, three hundred two nonagintillion, seven hundred eighty nine novemoctogintilliard, three hundred thirteen novemoctogintillion, six hundred nine octooctogintilliard, six hundred seventy four octooctogintillion, three hundred eighty two septenoctogintilliard, seven hundred nineteen septenoctogintillion, seventeen sexoctogintilliard, three hundred eighty five sexoctogintillion, five hundred eight quinoctogintilliard, four hundred eighty four quinoctogintillion, six hundred sixty three quattuoroctogintilliard, three hundred seventy three quattuoroctogintillion, four hundred seventy six treoctogintilliard, one hundred twenty treoctogintillion, eight hundred forty three dooctogintilliard, five hundred sixty seven dooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty three unoctogintilliard, sixty five unoctogintillion, fifty nine octogintilliard, five hundred fifty eight octogintillion, seventy two novemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty five novemseptuagintillion, one hundred ten octoseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty seven octoseptuagintillion, five hundred forty four septenseptuagintilliard, two hundred forty septenseptuagintillion, eight hundred seven sexseptuagintilliard, three hundred fifty sexseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty seven quinseptuagintilliard, eighty two quinseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty seven quattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred thirty three quattuorseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy nine treseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight treseptuagintillion, eight hundred seventy four doseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight doseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty three unseptuagintilliard, five hundred eighty four unseptuagintillion, five hundred twenty three septuagintilliard, ninety five septuagintillion, six hundred thirty eight novemsexagintilliard, nine hundred ninety six novemsexagintillion, one hundred twenty octosexagintilliard, six hundred sixteen octosexagintillion, three hundred eighteen septensexagintilliard, six hundred thirty four septensexagintillion, three hundred ninety one sexsexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven sexsexagintillion, one hundred twelve quinsexagintilliard, eighty six quinsexagintillion, four hundred sixty four quattuorsexagintilliard, three hundred eighty four quattuorsexagintillion, six hundred forty nine tresexagintilliard, four hundred seventy tresexagintillion, nine hundred sixty three dosexagintilliard, two hundred thirty dosexagintillion, seventy two unsexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty nine unsexagintillion, two hundred sexagintilliard, nine hundred twelve sexagintillion, five hundred eighty six novemquinquagintilliard, one hundred forty seven novemquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty seven octoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred ninety nine octoquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty two septenquinquagintilliard, four hundred ninety six septenquinquagintillion, seven hundred nine sexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two sexquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty nine quinquinquagintilliard, five hundred three quinquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty five quattuorquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty three quattuorquinquagintillion, nine hundred twenty four trequinquagintilliard, four hundred sixteen trequinquagintillion, two hundred two doquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven doquinquagintillion, seven hundred twenty unquinquagintilliard, seven hundred forty one unquinquagintillion, two hundred forty eight quinquagintilliard, six hundred eighty three quinquagintillion, five hundred ninety two novemquadragintilliard, two hundred two novemquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty eight octoquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty three octoquadragintillion, three hundred eleven septenquadragintilliard, one hundred forty septenquadragintillion, eight hundred thirty three sexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty three sexquadragintillion, three hundred two quinquadragintilliard, four hundred thirty three quinquadragintillion, nine hundred seventeen quattuorquadragintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quattuorquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy six trequadragintilliard, nine hundred ninety trequadragintillion, three hundred eleven doquadragintilliard, four hundred twenty five doquadragintillion, eight hundred forty three unquadragintilliard, six hundred nineteen unquadragintillion, three hundred fifty quadragintilliard, nine hundred thirty six quadragintillion, seven hundred fifty four novemtrigintilliard, four hundred eighty three novemtrigintillion, eight hundred eleven octotrigintilliard, one hundred ninety four octotrigintillion, four hundred eight septentrigintilliard, eight hundred twelve septentrigintillion, seven hundred sixty three sextrigintilliard, three hundred eighty eight sextrigintillion, eighty four quintrigintilliard, two hundred four quintrigintillion, four hundred fifty one quattuortrigintilliard, eight hundred four quattuortrigintillion, nine hundred twelve tretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty four tretrigintillion, three hundred eighty three dotrigintilliard, eight hundred eighty four dotrigintillion, one hundred eighty untrigintilliard, eight hundred untrigintillion, nine hundred forty five trigintilliard, two hundred seventy five trigintillion, six hundred twenty six novemvigintilliard, six hundred sixty eight novemvigintillion, fifty seven octovigintilliard, six hundred twenty eight octovigintillion, nine hundred fifty four septenvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three septenvigintillion, three hundred eighty four sexvigintilliard, six hundred forty one sexvigintillion, three hundred five quinvigintilliard, one hundred seven quinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty three quattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy three quattuorvigintillion, two hundred forty seven trevigintilliard, eighty two trevigintillion, four hundred ninety five dovigintilliard, eight hundred four dovigintillion, five hundred thirty three unvigintilliard, three hundred fifty five unvigintillion, seven hundred seventeen vigintilliard, four hundred eighty one vigintillion, nine hundred sixty five novemdecilliard, twenty five novemdecillion, seventy octodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen octodecillion, seven hundred thirty septendecilliard, four hundred sixty six septendecillion, four hundred twenty two sexdecilliard, eight hundred twenty six sexdecillion, one hundred five quindecilliard, six hundred ninety seven quindecillion, five hundred ten quattuordecilliard, five hundred sixty four quattuordecillion, two hundred eighty nine tredecilliard, seven hundred ninety eight tredecillion, nine hundred fifty one dodecilliard, one hundred eighty two dodecillion, one hundred ninety two undecilliard, eight hundred eighty five undecillion, nine hundred seventy six decilliard, three hundred fifty two decillion, two hundred twenty nine nonilliard, fifty three nonillion, eight hundred ninety eight octilliard, nine hundred forty eight octillion, seven hundred thirty seven septilliard, six hundred fourteen septillion, six hundred forty two sextilliard, one hundred thirty nine sextillion, nine hundred ten quintilliard, nine hundred eleven quintillion, five hundred thirty five quadrilliard, eight hundred sixty four quadrillion, five hundred five trilliard, eight hundred eighteen trillion, nine hundred ninety two billiard, six hundred ninety six billion, eight hundred twenty six milliard, two hundred twenty five million, seven hundred fifty four thousand, one hundred eleven

Re:Mozilla is bloated! I downloaded it and it was (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994439)

Get a cable connection, Cheap-Ass!

moron the NYT (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994407)

"It's pretty well established that you and the linux crowd are fundamentally cheapskates and intellectual property thieves, but organized boycotts are a flirtation with commercial code violations and can cost you some real bucks! I'm sure Mr. Bill wouldn't bother with you, but there's no telling about Ballmer! HAHAHAHAHAHA! [nytimes.com]"

these owned ?pr? "guise", have been .controlling the NYT forums for over 4 years now. tell 'em robbIE.

not very smart (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994460)

you must be referring to this thing [google.com] yuk. talk about your desperate last gaspers.

Mozilla is great for web development (3, Interesting)

Gortbusters.org (637314) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994413)

I like the sample demos that the 1.0 start page used to show for mozilla.

Even more so, tabbed web browsing is great for testing various web applications.

Finally, I love the HTML composer... it's great for composing little slashdot messages ;)

Thank you Mozilla for Galeon! (2)

grendelkhan (168481) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994442)

Especially the 1.3.X series of both browsers (using a 1.3 alpha build of Moz with 1.3.1 build of Galeon). You've made my GNOME 2 experience richer, and given me the best combination of tabbed browing and smart toolbar I could ask for.

1.7 % Market Share (4, Insightful)

zulux (112259) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994449)

In the last part of the article, it mentions that Mozilla based browsers have 1.7 % of the market share. I would advise web-sites that depens on internet sales not to discount this share. Most of these people, represented in the 1.7 % are rich people in the computer field , web-savy and spend time on the internet. Percisely, the best target audience.

The IE crowd is filled with old grandmom who play solitare and who think that the Internet in on their "Hard-Drive" - you know, the "Hard Drive" that sits under their Packard-Bell monitor.

Microsoft can keep those users.

Re:1.7 % Market Share (3, Informative)

tradervik (462791) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994464)

I just checked our site stats for 2003 and "Mozilla 5" has rocketed up to 5.7%! ;-)

Re:1.7 % Market Share (2)

rmohr02 (208447) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994568)

What site? I'm assuming most of the sites run by slashdotters will have a greater share for Gecko-based browsers than, say, Yahoo. But Yahoo wouldn't be a good indication either, as most of the people who are "enlightened" enough to use a Gecko browser don't need/want a portal.

Re:1.7 % Market Share (2)

KnightStalker (1929) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994576)


$ wc -l access_log
2433667 access_log

$ grep Gecko access_log | wc -l

Almost 4% since yesterday morning! :-)

Re:1.7 % Market Share (-1, Troll)

An Ominous Coward (13324) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994489)

No, actually.

Most Mozilla users are Linux-zealot, MS-bashing teenagers that, at most, are working in the fast food industry. Most IE users are corporate workers that actually pull in a real paycheck.

Re:1.7 % Market Share (1, Troll)

smart.id (264791) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994498)

I'm going to have to disagree with you totally on this. First of all, take a site that relies on internet sales. Amazon.com. Do you honestly think that the sales they've made through Mozilla browsers (the 1.7% you talked about) is more money than the other 98.3%?! I mean, come on, you have to take a little logic into your equation.

There are still many people who use IE and are web savvy. I consider myself to be so, I don't use Mozilla because I like the way it renders the pages that I go to better. I'm sure there are some people who would agree with me.

And as for your last sentence, don't be ridiculous. If you are talking about your pride as a Mozilla user vs. making more money, then you're insane. Sure, you could say "Well, I'm proud to be a Mozilla user, and even if I'm in the minority, I'm COOL!" But Microsoft doesn't care! They HAVE the majority, and they're making money off of it! Those old grandmas that you speak of are helping Microsoft, because according to you, they don't know a thing about what they're doing.

Re:1.7 % Market Share (2)

mikeage (119105) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994671)

And "free" zealots can keep you.

You're wrong on two accounts. Number 1, if you really are some uberintelligent computer expert, you probably also don't make stupid impulse purchases online. Suppose you make triple the purchases of Grandma... no.. better yet...10 times. Do you still even approach the sheer numbers of the herd?

Secondly, why are you being such an elitist jerk?

Re:1.7 % Market Share (2, Insightful)

NineNine (235196) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994677)

Most of these people, represented in the 1.7 % are rich people in the computer field , web-savy and spend time on the internet.

I disagree. I'd say that the 1.7% (closer to 0.5% on my sites) are mostly college kids who don't buy anything... exactly the kind of sufers I *don't* want.

I love fast development (1)

espresso_now (219443) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994454)

How many of you were caught checking the mozilla.org homepage every day to see if the next release was out? I know I was. Now that I have Mozilla 1.2.1 though, I'm satisfied.

Re:I love fast development (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994459)

I prefer to live on the edge and download nightlies myself.

a year ago (5, Interesting)

re-Verse (121709) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994461)

I could tell people "I use Mozilla" and most people would look at me like i was speaking greek (except the greeks, they'd look at me like i was speaking inuit).

Now I tell people i use Mozilla, and Some of them actually know what it is, or have heard of it. Not to mention that since there is a 1.X release out, i can confidently install it on a friends or clients machine without a lot of worry of weird crashes and bugs.

Once Mozillas spam filtering becomes easy and useful, I can see myself converting a LOT more people a lot more easily than i already have. So far i've converted about 25 diehard IE users... and i wonder how many they have converted.

Is the road to success as a standalone? (5, Insightful)

budGibson (18631) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994470)

To me, the most significant point in the article was Mitchell Baker's note supporting phoenix [mozillazine.org]. In it, he lists one of the reasons for supporting phoenix as an experiment to see whether mozilla can succeed by building core browser functionality that others adapt.

This is where OSS succeeds right now in mainstream implementations, as a base that a value-added integrator can then modify for clients to achieve a lower cost solution. It is hard for OSS to market directly to end-users. OSS is not close enough to end-users to know how to modify interface and other features to suit their needs. However, value-added integrators are.

With microsoft, value-added integrators face high licensing fees and the danger that microsoft will try to eat their lunch. In OSS, this is less an issue.

However, there is one problem with this view. There's plenty of reason for value-added integrators to use mozilla. What is the reason to contribute back? In the end, I suspect the interest for contribution to mozilla is with platform providers, e.g., AOL, who do not want access to their platforms controlled by their competitors. Note, a number of OSS projects have moved to corporate sponsorship congruent with this view, e.g., Gnome, Mozilla, and even Apache.

So, mozilla might find its real success as a neutral technology that can be adapted across a number of platforms by value-added integrators. It will have to look for support to corporations whose interest is in having neutral access technologies for their platforms.

Re:Is the road to success as a standalone? (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994535)

To me, the most significant point in the article was Mitchell Baker's note supporting phoenix [mozillazine.org]. In it, he
Mitchell's a she!

Simple maths (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994475)

16x^4 -1

Even better (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994479)

Re:Even better (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994685)

Hmm Yeah, I don't think I would like to help out the american government in building a more efficient spying/killing machine.
Thanks anyways though.

Browser good, Mail/News not so good (5, Interesting)

tradervik (462791) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994510)

The browser is excellent. At work, I use both IE and Mozilla (mainly because Windows launches IE when I click on a URL link in Outlook and I haven't been able to find out how to change that). Mozilla does a better job rendering complex pages. Take a page with a big table that uses CSS to control the layout. Mozilla is able to display the table progressively (i.e. display the rows as the data arrives at the browser) while IE seems to need to wait for the entire table to arrive. IE also crashes trying to print out that page if the table is big enough to take more than 2 or 3 paper pages.

Mozilla also has tabbed browsing, a popup blocker, etc. etc. The only area I have noticed where Mozilla still lags is in some DHTML (JavaScript/DOM) stuff. For example, pages that implement animation using DHTML can be much slower than IE.

The Mozilla Mail/News client, on the other hand, has not been so successful, in my opinion. For example, the last time I tried to use it, it would do strange things when I tried to insert blank lines between quoted lines in a reply.

Re:Browser good, Mail/News not so good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994523)

The mail client has really improved IMHO. In fact, I recently switched to using it full time from Outlook due to the spam filters in the 1.3 branch. I'm not a "heavy" mail user, just the basics, but it works well for me.

Re:Browser good, Mail/News not so good (1)

deakmann (556445) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994596)

My company recently updated from Netscape 4.x to Mozilla as browsing with Netscape has become a nightmare lately. No doubt Mozilla is a capable browser (though it seems slow at times), but we've had no end of problems with the mail. I guess it 's not really been tested in a high use environment.

Mozilla and Mac OS X (5, Interesting)

The Glory of Witty (636939) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994527)

Mozilla for Mac OS X is a nice browser and it gets better everyday, but I still think that in terms of speed it lags behind Internet Explorer. Chimera on the other hand is the fastest web browser I've ever used and it renders websites just about as well as IE. Its light, its fast, its cocoa, if you are using OS X you owe it to yourself to at least check out this amazing browser. I feel that its the most exciting thing happening on the OS X platform right now. Now all we need is for Chimera to reach a final version so Apple can bundle it with OS X and new Macs that are sold. Think about it: Apple's license with Microsoft has expired, so they don't even need to ship IE anymore, although I'm sure they will continue just because IE is the standard. Chimera is a cocoa product which is exactly what Apple has been emphasizing for its speed and usability. Whatever the case is, the future looks bright for this amazing browser!

Off Topic (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994552)

Thank-you Slashdot, I was losing faith.

A trick to speed up Mozilla v1.2.1 and previous... (4, Interesting)

antdude (79039) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994607)

Paint Timeout is too high in the current stable versions. This is why Phoenix works so fast in rendering. Hopefully, the next stable version will have this fix. Here's the copy of Mozilla thread in newsgroup:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Great performance tuning pref setting
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 18:16:37 +0100
From: Markus Hübner
Organization: Another Netscape Collabra Server User
netscape.public.mozilla.win32,n etscape.public.mozi lla.performance

Olaf Dietsche wrote:
> Markus Hübner writes:
>>Jonathan Arnold wrote:
>>>>>http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_ bug.cgi?id=1 80241
>>>>>is highly interesting!
>>>>Can't wait for the pref additions to try it out, looks interesting.
>>>It's in Moztweak.
>>cool - but it would be really needed to tune the default value.
>>the "standard mozilla user" doesn't have Moztweak nor does the typical
>>Netscape (Gecko embedded browser) user.
> Well, every user has an editor. You can put the following line
> into prefs.js or user.js:
> user_pref("nglayout.initialpaint.delay", 500);
> I tested this with various values, but couldn't see any difference
> until I tried:
> user_pref("nglayout.initialpaint.delay", 0);
> This is in sync with:
> Regards, Olaf.

Thx for the pointer to mozillazine, Olaf! :: markus

It's not a bug (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#4994713)

It was a carefully considered decision. The delay is there to reduce paint redraws on complex pages. While the delay may need to be retuned, it was set for a reason.

No Chimera? (1)

Loosetrash (624218) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994625)

<i>"A year ago, there was no Mozilla 1.0, no Netscape 7, no Phoenix, no Chimera and no shipping AOL clients using Gecko (Mozilla's rendering engine)."</i>
However, Chimera has been around for almost 10 years:
From: John D. Kilburg (john@unlv.edu)
Subject: [comp.infosystems.www] Athena Web browser announcement
Newsgroups: comp.archives
Date: 1993-12-17 09:00:34 PST

Archive-Name: auto/comp.infosystems.www/Athena-Web-browser-annou ncement

This is an announcement for Chimera. Chimera is a Web browser
which uses the Athena widgets instead of the Motif widgets.

Currently it supports HTML but not HTML+ (this means no forms).
The NCSA HTML widget is used by Chimera to display HTML.

The current version is 0.9f. There are still a lot of things to be
done but it seems to work fairly well.

It works on Suns, DECstations, RS6Ks, Apollos, and
other machines. It works with X11R4 and R5. It doesn't
work on Linux boxes or SGIs but this should change in the next
few days.

You can grab the distribution at


Send comments/suggestions/bug reports to bug-chimera@cs.unlv.edu.

So is this Mozilla based version a rewrite or a lift of the name?

Re:No Chimera? (3, Informative)

goneaway (224677) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994711)

That's something different and still maintained (at least in Debian) although it's nothing to write home about. The current version is 2.x and still has some rendering problems that need to be resolved.

And no Mozilla in Playboy! (5, Funny)

DCowern (182668) | more than 11 years ago | (#4994646)

Mozillazine had a blurb [mozillazine.org] about it. Here's the full text:


[Mozilla.org Logo]

Microsoft's Internet Explorer is the most popular web browser in the world. But it's not the best. That title belongs to Mozilla, a volunteer-built browser that offers everything Explorer has going for it, plus a bunch of great features. Here are three reasons to switch. One: You can set a preference to prevent pop-up windows. Two: You can right-click on any banner ad and select a menu item that prevents the originating site from sending images to your browser. Three: You can open links as "tabs" that appear along the top of your browser window. Don't be fooled by the new Netscape 7.0. It lacks a built-in pop-up killer and will fire a barrage of AOL ads every chance that it gets.

Playboy, January 2003, p.36

This _has_ to be good for mainstream acceptance when such non-tech-oriented magazines like Playboy laud Mozilla so greatly. Maybe if other general living and style magazines adopt such a positive attitude, we'll see a surge in Mozilla adoption. Hey, maybe its wishful thinking but if nothing else, it's increasing awareness.

P.S. -- Consider this proof that I *DO* read the articles. :-P

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