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Red Hat Certification Program For Education

Hemos posted more than 11 years ago | from the certify-rectify dept.

Red Hat Software 209

Frank Caviggia writes "The Inquirer has a story up about Red Hat providing educational institutions with the ability to certify students as Red Hat Certified Technicians (RHCT) and Red Hat Certified Engineers (RCHE) how this will relate to Microsoft's MSCE program. You can find the story here. Red Hat has more information on the program here."

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education? (5, Funny)

s20451 (410424) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227033)

So certification involves actually educating people now?

no (1)

SHEENmaster (581283) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227247)

it involves saying they have been educated.

Anyone want to become an FECE for only $20? Inquire here [frob.us].

Re:no (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227333)

I don't think we need any FECEs, thanks.

HAR, HAR! It is to laugh.

Educate the government (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227038)

Confused by Blair? Baffled by Bush?

Join the anti war protest in Hyde Park, London on Saturday 15th of February at one o'clock. Probably the largest ever demo to be held in England, bring your friends for the booze, batons and birds.

Largest piss up ever, followed by one of the largest parties ever, and closed with the largest fireworks displays ever in Baghdad as the governments once again ignore the opinions of the general populace.

First Post! Woot. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227041)


Havent we learned?? (3, Interesting)

sickboy_macosX (592550) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227046)

OHavent we learned that people who get certs are just people who think they are computer geeks? I meean look at how well the MCSE has worked, Dont get me wrong, I think certs for some people can be good but over all they need to be better with more real world questions. And when they start giving out Certified C++ Expert I will be in line to get one But I think it is over rated to h8ave a Cert. Especially since 45% of the people with certs i know are Paper Certified.... Why start kids out like this? Let them choose for them selves!

Re:Havent we learned?? (5, Insightful)

nightsweat (604367) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227097)

You miss the point.

This is a brilliant move on the part of Red Hat.

Certification serves two main purposes.
First, it invests technical pros in your product. If a person has worked for weeks or months to learn the arcana necessary to support Red Hat, what arethey going to suggest when management comes to them asking for an OS recommendation? This invested loyalty is a good part of what keeps MS shops MS shops.
Second, certification is a warm fuzzy that lets potential corporate adopters know that there will be talent for them to draw on. IT might be expensive now, but the cost will drop as geeks get run through the Cert mill.

This will end up being a Martha Stewart sized Good Thing.

Re:Havent we learned?? (4, Insightful)

orthogonal (588627) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227265)

Certification serves two main purposes.
First, it invests technical pros in your product. If a person has worked for weeks or months to learn the arcana necessary to support Red Hat, what arethey going to suggest when management comes to them asking for an OS recommendation? This invested loyalty is a good part of what keeps MS shops MS shops.

Great, instead of recommending Red Hat because they honestly believe it's the best answer, they'll be pimping it to protect their paychecks.

"Sure enough, boss! Red Hat's the best solution for our embedded OS. Works great on toasters. And it's the most secure and stable too! Let's use it for all mission critical systems. And it's great for new users and long time linux geeks. You betcha, boss!"

Is it because you love linux or because you hate Microsoft that you've decided the ends justify the means?

I'm reminded of a Russian(?) aphorism: "Choose your enemies well, because you'll become them."

Are you paper trained? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227152)

I ask because your spelling and grammar are so bad. From your post, I suspect you shit on the carpet.

Re:Havent we learned?? (4, Informative)

hdparm (575302) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227176)

Well, for your information, you cannot be 'paper' RHCE. Two out of three parts of the exam are fully practical. You need to know where to look and how to fix the problem (1st part) and to be able to perform network install of the Red Hat system according to specs given + to configure most of the common network services on that machine (part 2). You have passed the exam only if your overall score is >80% with none of the 3 parts scored @ less than 50%. School kids who do this will be ready for entry support roles after finishing school.

Much larger benefit of this I see in the fact that Linux/OSS will be introduced to greater school population, beating long time perception about Microsoft and Windows (yes - Apple too) being the only option out there.

Paper RHCE... (1)

NetJunkie (56134) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227441)

I bet I could get anyone with some IT experience to pass the RHCE exam in 2 weeks. An Exam Cram was released (they went under) that covered pretty much every piece of the exam. Any test can be reduced down and a "cheat sheet" created.

There will be plenty of paper RHCEs as soon as the cert becomes popular. The real creators of paper certs are the companies themselves pushing quick courses that always seem to stress the sticky spots on the exam.

Re:Havent we learned?? (5, Interesting)

bloxnet (637785) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227205)

You know, I generally agree that the general value of a certification is zero...except for a couple of things.

To begin with, I was working for a company that thought it would be a good PR move to get as many of the admins/techs on staff MCSE or RHCE certified, so they actually shelled out the $$$ for training from both RedHat and Microsoft. I got to take the full course for RHCE (RedHat 7.2 exam), and I have to say that not only was the material good (a lot of us went in thinking this was going to be a joke and went out having learned a couple of things), but the test itself was not a total cakewalk...it was exactly what it was supposed to be: challenge level scaled to the examinee's experience. If you were really knowledgeable, and good at troubleshooting, the test was a breeze, if not, you probably failed. I would say more, but they make you sign non-disclosure forms regarding test information, another plus.

As for the Microsoft training, I only got to go to one class, but I did learn quite a bit from this class as well. More than likely had I been able to go to all classes, I would have had an MCSE as well.

The real point on all of this is that the big difference is *who* is training you. The trainers direct from RedHat and Microsoft were top notch...not some fool from CompUsa who likes tinkering...these trainers were focused, knowledgeable, and just good at teaching the material.

Getting back to the value of certs...do I think that a person's merit is determined by a piece of paper (be it from a university or a tech certification) ??? Hell no. But one important thing to keep in mind is that there are people still trying to break into the IT world...whether it's the beginning of a career or a transition from one field to another. If I see someone who has gone out of their way to get an RHCE, an MCSE, CCNA, OCP, GIAC certs, whatever...ESPECIALLY on their own time and money, then I would at least give them a fair evaluation.

THAT is what I would like to see a certification treated as...a minimum requirement for evaluation. If someone wanted to get into InfoSec, or Systems Administration and had little direct work experience...a certification would be a nice way to weed the fly by night types out from the people who are serious about the field they want to work on. I don't know if things will get to that point, experience is still king...but I do know that if I would interview for a position, let's say for an admin...and this was not a senior level position, I would give people with certifications a definite evaluation/interview/shot at the position...especially if this was something they pursued on their own. I mean, isn't that part of what college is? You don't have to go, but people want to see a degree to know you stuck through it or maybe were truly interested in your field?

Re:Havent we learned?? (1)

BinaryCodedDecimal (646968) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227206)

Havent we learned that people who get certs are just people who think they are computer geeks?

Or, perhaps, people trying to get jobs. I had real problems getting job interviews because I'm not an MCSE or MCSA.

So many places specify it as a desirable qualification, that I'm looking into taking the exams before looking for my next job. OK, it's M$, but it's a foot in the door that a CS degree just doesn't seem to provide anymore...

Re:Havent we learned?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227484)

Exactly. Many of the people doing the hiring at small businesses don't know jack about IT. They have MS products and their MS sales rep told them to hire an MCSE, so thats what the suits do.

One guy with a BS in CS and five years experience and another guy with only an MCSE and five years experience; the suit doesn't know any better, he'll just hire the MCSE because that is what the MS sales rep told him. And if that guy with the BS had bothered to put forth the minimal effort for the MCSE then he probably would have gotten the job instead.

I have known HR people who thought anyone who was "cisco certified" was immediately a computer guru. If you asked them what cisco was they wouldn't have a clue but suits and much of the general public have had it drilled into their heads that certs actually mean something. That is just the way it is, ignore it at your own peril.

Same as a degree (2, Insightful)

www.sorehands.com (142825) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227230)

This is the same type of issue as people with degrees.

A person with a BSCS may be able to program a 2000 line program, but give them a problem to fix on a 200,000 program and they are dead.

All a degree or certification does is state that the person has taken course work and exams that show they they knew some knowledge at some point. It is not an end-all-be-all determination of skill. It is only one aspect to look at when determining a persons ability.

Re:Same as a degree (3, Insightful)

captain_craptacular (580116) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227301)

I beg to differ. A person with a BSCS should have a good enough understanding of the fundamentals of programming and debugging "in the large" to track down and fix a problem in any sized program. It's all about knowing how to go about it, and thats what you should learn in a BS program.

I also find it rather disturbing that you compare a BSCS to a certification program that takes somewhere between a couple weeks and a couple months to get. I'll hire a BSCS over a any day if thats the only fundamental difference.

Re:Same as a degree (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227369)

I beg to differ. A person with a BSCS should have a good enough understanding of the fundamentals of programming and debugging "in the large" to track down and fix a problem in any sized program

Nope, sorry. That comes with experience. Real world experience. A school degree only tells me that you can tie your shoes and that you'll probably manage to get up in the mornings and come to work.

I don't care if you have all the theory in the world - if you can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk, your degree is useless.

Re:Havent we learned?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227415)


all formal education and documentation is just a waste of time.

why don't we just get to the crux of the matter?

most people are stupid lemmings.

including you.

the fact that you have repeated something that has been said before about certifications, with no new insights, no new perspective....just the same old shit.

45% of the people you know are paper certified?

god...you must not be very good at what you do...because the circles i run in...nobody is certified, and everyone of us are geniuses.

but you? you still hanging around with paper certs. apparently your abilities have not freed you from clueless masses.

How practical though? (5, Insightful)

jorupp (529670) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227050)

They want to create a certification comparable to the MSCE? Gee... then we'll have have all these people with just a RHCT or RCHE admining linux boxes, and we'll have as many problems (DDOS zombies, etc.) as with the MCSEs admining windows boxes.

Certifications will help, but then people will think that that certification is _all_ that is needed to admin a linux box.

Re:How practical though? (1)

sickboy_macosX (592550) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227089)

I agree, the next big rage will be "Certified" Forget the Engineers, and the others who think the "Certified" Admin is "Certifiabley" NUTS :)

Re:How practical though? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227144)

Congratulations, you are now "certified" on my foes list.

Re:How practical though? (4, Informative)

signe (64498) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227158)

No, RedHat never said they want to create a certification comparable to the MCSE. They know that MCSE is a useless certification that really only means that someone paid for a set of books for you, or someone paid for you to go to the week training.

In fact, RedHat likens their certification more to Cisco's CCIE cert. A good chunk of the RedHat test for RHCE is practical. Meaning they sit you down in front of some computers and have you make them work. Or make them work in a particular configuration.

I'm not big on most certifications, but I'm interested to see what RedHat has actually put together, based on what I've heard from them.


Re:How practical though? (2, Informative)

kableh (155146) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227259)

I got my RHCE last October. Took the RH300 course to bone up on the basics and the last day was the exam. And man, I was glad I took the course! The writeup here on /. [slashdot.org] about the RH300 course was right on the money.

The exam is 3 parts: lab, written test, lab. The first lab involves doing an install of Red Hat that conforms to a set of specs you are given. After that your instructor comes over and breaks your system, then you get to fix it. I saw a lot of my classmates struggling well after I got done with that portion of the test. Granted, I have about 3 years of professional experience admining Red Hat so I considered myself well prepared, but some of these problems were a bitch to fix. The multiple choice test covered a broad range of questions. There was some debate over the correct answer to a couple of questions, due mostly to the fact that this was the first time they were giving a Red Hat 8.0 course, but I'm sure they have worked out those kinks. The final lab involved securing your machine, only allowing access for specific services to specific machines. All in all a very thorough test.

I must admit though, I don't know how much I like the idea of a bunch of high school graduates with no security experience, or even real world experience, coming out of school RHCEs and bringing down median wages even lower. Not that I make median for what I do, but I digress.

I've been doing MIS stuff for 4 years or so now, Red Hat for 3 years pro, much longer as a hobby, and all that has taught me is that I have a LOT to learn. =)

Will this be the same thing? (5, Insightful)

MyPantsAreOnFire! (642687) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227052)

Will this turn into the same repetetive cash cow that the MCSE is? Will certified engineers have to get a new certification on every new release of the kernel? what about major releases?

I hope they realize that one of the major flaws with microsoft's certification is the necessity to get re-certified when a poorly-done ripoff of the previous operating system is released.

Re:Will this be the same thing? (1)

arivanov (12034) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227124)

It is not a flaw. It is there by design.


1. If you have invested heavily in the process of getting certified will you be willing to allow the proliferation of competing technologies that will make your certification worthless? Ever tried to make a MSCE think "outside the box"? Ever tried to do this with a recertified one?

2. The process of refreshing your certification eats most of the time you can afford to use on education so the chance of learning something on a competing technology is decreased significantly.

Overall do you think MSFT is stupid or something? If they were they would not have been where they are now.

Re:Will this be the same thing? (1)

gazbo (517111) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227163)

get re-certified when a poorly-done ripoff of the previous [microsoft] operating system is released.

Strange, I didn't think MS offered Linux certification.

Re:Will this be the same thing? (1)

n3rd (111397) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227165)

Will this turn into the same repetetive cash cow that the MCSE is?

I know this question is part sarcasam and part real question so I'll answer it anyway. Yes, it will generate revenue. As for how much, I couldn't speculate. All certifications I know of (including HP-UX, Microsoft and Comptia certs) require recertification after a specified amount of time. It is usually after X number of year(s) or X years after a new certification test has been released. Note some do not require recertification (Sun) but encourage it.

Will certified engineers have to get a new certification on every new release of the kernel?

That's just silly. Yes, daily tests everytime CVS changes are committed.

what about major releases?

More than likely not. System administration and engineering aren't as much about knowing the kernel inside and out as much as it is about knowing things like how to build a new kernel, how to configure and troubleshoot Samba, NFS, NIS, Apache, etc. Red Hat's certification tests accurately reflect this.

I hope they realize that one of the major flaws with microsoft's certification is the necessity to get re-certified when a poorly-done ripoff of the previous operating system is released.

Aside from the Microsoft bashing refer to my above statement. Most vendors (even vendor neutral certifications such as Comptia) require recertification.

The real problem with the Windows NT 4.0 MCSE were braindumps and Transcender tests. NT 4.0 was when most of the MCSEs got certified because it was cake. Ask anyone who has done it, the Transcender tests were almost exactly like the real tests. Ace them and you'll pass.

As for the people who are getting their MCSE in Win2k they say it is much harder, but I can't say from personal experience.

Re:Will this be the same thing? (1)

Sarcazmo (555312) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227281)

Comptia certs

I know A+ at least is for keeps. My 1998 A+ is still just as valid as it ever was (value is debatable though).

I believe most CompTIA tests are forever, unless they changed their policy in the last year or two.

Re:Will this be the same thing? (1)

destiney (149922) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227421)

That's just silly. Yes, daily tests everytime CVS changes are committed.

The kernel is no longer managed in CVS, it is in BitKeeper now.

+5, Insightful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227248)

Get the fuck out of here. Mods are horrendous.

Not an MCSE? (1)

NetJunkie (56134) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227411)

I take it you aren't a MCSE and haven't looked at the re-certification policy. I've been a MCSE for close to 7 years. This year will be the first time I've been forced to upgrade. No big deal.

Cisco requires you to recertify every 3 years, no matter what. I've been an RHCE for about 2 years and so far no recert needed in site.

MSCE (0, Troll)

soorma_bhopali (643472) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227060)

I dont know about u guys, but I find "Microsoft certified engineer" FUNNY :)

Re:MSCE (0, Flamebait)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227209)

I dont know about u guys [...]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! U so funny! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! U so original! U make me laugh! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! U funny man! I like ur jokes! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wow... my sides are hurting with that funny, funny quip u just threw down on us like some clever maniacal funny man! U so funny! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Someone will even probably mod u as funny to show how funny u really are to the rest of us! Quip, quip says u! Everyone! Over here! Look at the funny man! He made a funny about Microsoft certified engineers! Get it? ...certified...engineers... HAHAHAHAHA! It's a reference to MCSEs... yes, how they are 'certified' by 'Microsoft'... HAHAHAHAHA! Yes, I am not sure where this guy is from but boy is he funny! Who invited him to the party? We gotta have this guy over more often! Honey? Come down here a second and listen to this guy 'tell it like it is' in a really funny way. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! "I dont know about u guys", that's priceless. "FUNNY." Gold. Just pure gold. How do u do it? I mean, so many people post on Slashdot but then u see a funny gem like this. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Pure hilarity. When's the last time u even got close to being certified in anything and so wittily remarked about it? Had u been certified in the first place this wouldn't actually happen and hence ur joke would 'have no teeth' as it were. But the brilliance of u tying in 'Microsoft certified' with 'engineer' had me splitting my sides. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! U funny man. So clever, so very very clever. I'll bet u were the funny man in high school 2. Wow. U still got it!

[Clever Manniacal Funny Post, v 2.03u]
[Download the source [slashdot.org]]

Re:MSCE (5, Funny)

Sarcazmo (555312) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227307)

Back when brainbench was doing the free cert thing, I noticed they had a cert for AOL User. I couldn't resist taking it, even though I hadn't used AOL for nearly 6 years.

I passed it, and got the cert in the mail. It's a great conversation piece. "Certified AOL User" :)

Wow... (1)

Gharbad (647620) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227061)

So, now we can be formally trained to use open source technology. So, how many people will use this? Anyone?

RCHE? (5, Funny)

FueledByRamen (581784) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227066)

I can think of certifications that I'd like to have, and Red Certified Hat Engineer is not one of them.

It's funny. Laugh.

MSCE?! bzzzt! (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227078)

Maybe Microsoft developed a new course, because last time I checked it was "MCSE". It stands for Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in case you were wondering.

Re:MSCE?! bzzzt! (4, Funny)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227286)

It stands for Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in case you were wondering.
Really? I was under the imprssion it stood for Minesweeper Consultant, Solitaire Expert. Or possibly Must Consult Someone Experienced.

Invitations for trademark lawsuit from Microsoft (1)

mrs clear plastic (229108) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227091)

I hate be the cynical one here, but could this
be an invitation to a trademark lawsuit from

MSCE, I think, is trademarked by Microsoft.

RHCE, Red Hat's certification acronym seems
almost uncomfortably close to RHCE.

Microsoft attempted to sue Lindows because it
'could be confused' with Windows. They did not
succeed, but this showed that they are at least
willing to try.

Not that I am pro-Microsoft, but I am also pro
being careful and not letting them get a change
to bleed someone on the spike of litigation.

Re:Invitations for trademark lawsuit from Microsof (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227114)

RHCE, Red Hat's certification acronym seems almost uncomfortably close to RHCE

Indeed, they look almost exactly the same. It's uncanny!

Re:Invitations for trademark lawsuit from Microsof (1)

scottvdp (566602) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227120)

Actually, its MCSE. Not a huge difference, but still different. Either way, I don't think any judge would ever find "RedHat Certified Engineer" similar to "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer." Seems a bit of a stretch.

Re:Invitations for trademark lawsuit from Microsof (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227174)

And wasn't CNE (Certified Novell Engineer) certification around before the MCSE?

Re:Both illegal (4, Informative)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227241)

Just to point it out - both Microsoft and Redhat are in violation of the law in all 10 Canadian provinces, and most US States, when they use the term "engineer"

A quick google search on "engineer certification illegal microsoft" turns this up as the first hit:

A general rule, though, is that one must hold a PE to legally represent themselves as engaged in practice of "professional engineering". (Some states take it as far as making it illegal to use the word "Engineering" in the name of a company unless a PE is one of the principals. That sounds pretty strong, but it's not very well known, and can only be addressed after someone files a complaint about it with that state's Board of Registration for Professional Engineers.)

(1) a four-year engineering degree in a program approved by the state engineering licensure board, (2) four years of qualifying engineering experience, and who successfully completes (3) the eight-hour Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) Examination, and (4) the eight- hour Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) Examination will be licensed as a professional engineer.

In Canada, you can't use the term "engineer" unless you have an engineering degree. The only exceptions are for train engineers, forestry engineers, and a few others. Software Enginner IS NOT a permitted term. I've met w. the local governing body to discuss this last year.

Having said that, anyone paying $$$ thinking that having an "engineering cert" from RH or MS is fucking brain-dead anyway, and deserves to lose their money and their time.

Re:Both illegal (1)

mrs clear plastic (229108) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227346)


Thank you for correcting me. I have completely
forgotten about the degree and professional
registration. I do have a degree, but I don't
have a registration, therefore I don't think that
I can legally call myself and engineer.

I stand corrected. Let's see if Microsoft and
Red Hat and others who use the term incorretly
can make the move and retract the term engineer.

Re:Both illegal (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227475)

Actually, they (Microsoft) are being taken to court over the whole thing, for violating previous cease+desist consent agreements, both here in Canada, and in the US.

Microsoft changed its' position because they don't want the people they've ripped off suing them for illegal certifications.

Re:Both illegal (1)

RabidOverYou (596396) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227447)

> I've met w. the local governing body to discuss this last year.

God, I'll bet they almost died, trying not to laugh in your face. You must have been coffee-machine talk for a week.

The truth is... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227093)

RedHat == Microsoft Jr.

Yay! (5, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227096)

Now all the wagon jumping paper tigers that swamped the IT world can move to Linux.

A large part of the state of job opportunities in the tech sector are the 5000 absolutely unqualified applicants for every job.

Pointy haired bosses don't know a good coder from a hole in the ground, so they hire the janitor-cum-MCP with the $20,000 salary expectation.

There are a few places left that look for someone who can do the job, and do it well, and don't give a hoot about alphabet soup and buzzwords in the resume.. I'm fortunate enough to have found one of them.

I should probably get back to work, I've wasted too much time here today.

MCSE's are better (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227106)

Slashdotter's are SOOO funny - can't pass the MCSE, so bash it. THese are all people who think WIndows98 is the last product MS released. Bah.

Re:MCSE's are better (2, Funny)

xao gypsie (641755) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227195)

THese are all people who think WIndows98 is the last product MS released. Bah.
clearly, you have a dizzying intellect..


RCHE? (1)

Neuroelectronic (643221) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227118)

Red Certified Hat Engineers (RCHE) ??

i think the poster ment RHCE...

Re:RCHE? (3, Funny)

BinaryCodedDecimal (646968) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227244)

Red Certified Hat Engineers (RCHE) ??

i think the poster ment RHCE...

Oh, you'd be surprised how few Certified Hat Engineers there are.

The Red ones are even rarer.

Re:RCHE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227263)

Red Certified Hat Engineers (RCHE) ??

i think the poster ment RHCE...

No, I know plenty of Socialist Hat Manufacturers, and they are damn proud of their RCHE, goes nicely with their MCES(Marx's Certificate for Engineering of Stetsons)

How it relates. (2, Insightful)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227126)

It means that there will now be a flood of "Paper RHCEs" just as was the case with the MCSEs. But there will be a big difference.

The difference will be that few Slashdotters will ridicule the RHCEs as they have done the MCSEs. And, the Slashdotters that do ridicule them will be classified as jealous of the certification, since they do not have one. Then they will be modded down to minus one, much as I suspect this post will be.

Re:How it relates. (1)

tempest303 (259600) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227300)

Except RHCE isn't just a "paper" exam - there's actually an interactive skills section to it, so it's not the same as the MCSE.

If Slashdotters don't ridicule the RHCE exam and the people that get the cert, maybe it's because the RHCE is a better program.

Top 5 ways to earn a Red Hat certification (3, Funny)

Amsterdam Vallon (639622) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227127)

5 -- Make a hat pattern out of the multiple choice fields

4 -- Copy off the smelly guy with the dandruff-coated black tee shirt

3 -- Bribe the proctor of the exam with a lunch that's "free as in beer"

2 -- emacs &... Edit... Query Replace... "MCSE, Red Hat Certified"

1 -- Insist on using the new open source Test Answer Development (TAD) model championed by Bruce Perens

Don't forget *nix.org [starnix.org] either


Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227162)

Nice one

Re:Top 5 ways to earn a Red Hat certification (1)

Shouichi (647465) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227186)

Free as in beer, huh? Considering it's a certification for a Linux distribution, couldn't just saying that be means of failure?

Now, offer the proctor with an open-source lunch, (give him the ingredients and make him make it himself..), and you'll have something going.

Re:Top 5 ways to earn a Red Hat certification (2, Funny)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227250)

Bribe the proctor

Oh, sorry. For a moment there I read "proctologist". Um... what's this certification for again?

Re:Top 5 ways to earn a Red Hat certification (1)

VP (32928) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227303)

2 -- emacs &... Edit... Query Replace... "MCSE, Red Hat Certified"

Well, that should rather be

emacs &... M-% MCSE<RET>Red Hat Certified

Lets just HOPE (4, Insightful)

alexborges (313924) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227137)

That universities learn from the free software movement that knowledge is something that they can generate. I dont see whatsoever any value in giving any kind of certification to a student that is not involved in important admin tasks in a real datacenter. Come on, she'll go into the cert, finish it. Oh cool its friday! Go to a rave and kill most the synaptic connections given by the cert in the first two hours. With some luck (and here is the upside), our very hypothetical geek will get laid and on and on and on until they finish their degree....

Certs provide no value to kids in school. Abstract math, the study of algorithms, the understanding of the engeneering process behinf organizations like IETF, W3C do provide it....quit loosing time colleges, educate ppl. Certs are for lame professionals that lost the next wave (which is most of us, at some point anyway).

Other certifications... (4, Insightful)

exhilaration (587191) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227140)

For those interested in certifications, also take a look at Linux+ [comptia.com] from CompTIA (the A+ folks). I plan to take the exam soon, and frankly, it looks pretty easy.

You guys can bash certifications left and right, but to a new graduate desperately looking for a job, they can prove useful. The job market is so bad at the moment that recent college graduates applying for entry-level positions are competing with people that have decades of experience. If having "RHCT" or "RCHE" on your resume can help, it's worth investing a couple of hundred bucks into it.

Re:Other certifications... (1)

Shouichi (647465) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227199)

Yours, sir/ma'am, are one of the few comments that have actually changed my stubborn mind. You are correct, sometimes the title is enough to help someone get get started, where they can then really learn.

Certification speaks to the HR Rep. (2, Insightful)

stefanlasiewski (63134) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227268)

Certifications like the CompTIA certs do not carry much value to techies, but may mean alot to that HR rep.

If you don't have the right alphabet soup at the top of your resume, that HR person may very well throw away your resume, even if you have years of experience.

That said, I don't have a certification, and I still don't have a job after looking since November. I'm looking into getting a RHCE and CompTIA to help me get past the HR level.

RH at a university (2, Interesting)

I_am_Rambi (536614) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227145)

Being a CS student at a university, almost every semester we have to write a program or more on a linux server (I believe they are running RH 7.2 or 7.3). Thats for the first few CS classes, then in the upperclassmen classes, the servers are handled more for a few classes. Namely Network Security. Just think, if the students who took network security, also were RedHat certified, that would have a big impact on resumes. Looking at the description, I can see where this certification could come in handy for me or other CS students. I would take the class, if my university offered it. I could see that if CS took this certification, a job would almost be guarrenteed.

great ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227151)

MCSE = Must Consult Someone with Experience!

Great .. thats all we need. Sure there will be a million more red hat certified's out there .. But - just like the MCSE over time - the cert will be watered down, and virtually meaningless (just like the MCSE is now). Any ass can regurgitate a book. Educational institutions that cram a book into your head over 2 weeks, then make you pick your favorite answer on a multiple guess test, and charge outrageous prices -- Just to flood the market with non-thinking drones ... yay. fucking great.

linux (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227154)

telnetting in to my teachers computer
wgetting his pr0n
uninstalling gnome
and replacing it with
su'ing in to my server
hax0ring it all day
chmodded 000 and xkilled
for being such
a gnu/asshole

Let's start our own. Who's with me? (4, Insightful)

Billy the Mountain (225541) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227168)

Certification has pluses and minuses for employees and employers alike, the real winners turn out to be the Cerifying organization. So, why not? Let's start "Billy The Mountain's Certified Information Technology Professional" program. "What, you say you're not BTMCITP? Gedowwdahea!"

Step 1. We'll charge $400 a pop, with a $50 annual maint. fee

Step 2. ????

Step 3. Marvel at how it's just like were printing our own money.


take out 'Engineer' from these titles (4, Insightful)

rob-fu (564277) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227172)

I thought engineering was something you had to go to college for, not some 'school' in a strip mall that does computer 'certs'.

Re:take out 'Engineer' from these titles (2, Interesting)

n3rd (111397) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227231)

I thought engineering was something you had to go to college for, not some 'school' in a strip mall that does computer 'certs'

When it comes to network engineering (as opposed to chip design and things of that nature) not really. Witness this post [infopop.net] over on ArsTechnica. I don't think there are any schools out there that teach you what is required to answer that question.

Re:take out 'Engineer' from these titles (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227298)

hear, hear

Make those bastards sweat through 4 years of school like the rest of us engineers before cheapen the name.


Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227314)

+5 insightful

Re:take out 'Engineer' from these titles (2, Informative)

GreatOgre (75402) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227319)

Actually, according to most state laws and regulations, an engineer is someone who has:

(1) Completed a four year degree in "engineering."
(2) Taken the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam and passed with a grade of 70 or better.
(3) Worked for 7 years (I think) under a registered professional engineer.
(4) Taken and passed the Professional Engineer (PE) exam.

Only after the above four steps have been completed can one truely call themselve an engineer. Exceptions include when the position that a person holds is titled something engineer, such as county engineers who are usually former construction contractors.

Re:take out 'Engineer' from these titles (4, Interesting)

Dr Caleb (121505) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227360)

In certain provinces of Canada, MCSEs are not allowed to use the work "Engineer".

Being a member of ASET [aset.ab.ca] and APEGGA [apegga.ca], I was sent a memo from both of those organizations and Microsoft on this issue. Microsoft was really pushing to use the work "Engineer", but the laws of BC, Alberta and Ontairo forbid the use of that title unless you are certified by one of those organizations. (APEGGA or ASET, or the Ontairo versions)

I can't find reference to that memo on any of their websites, but I did get a copy about a year and a half ago.

I forget what work they were trying to use to replace the "E", but I believe they settled on just using "MCSE" as the title, not as an acronym.

Hmm (1)

SteakandcheeseUm (191173) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227182)

Boy, I wish I could get the narrow minded computer guru's at my High School to have this course! Oh no! Lets stick with the Windows 98 licensing trap!

Course material would be great... (1)

Erisian Pope (636878) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227202)

I'm a volunteer teacher for the NPO Techs [npotechs.org] program in Chicago and I'd be estatic if this means RedHat will be making their training material available outside of their programs. I've taken a couple of their classes, and they were great, with lots of low-level detail. My biggest gripe was the training materials weren't published under any sort of open documentation license. This has forced me to reinvent the wheel for the classes I've been teaching. I sought permission to make copies of course materials for non-profit purposes, but was rebuffed by beuracracy. I really don't care if my students are going to be official RHCT or RHCE so long as they come out of the course better equiped than they went in. If RedHat really cares about linux in education, they should make their teaching materials as free as their OS.

The Red Hat benefits (5, Insightful)

frankthechicken (607647) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227211)

Theres an interesting comaprison between the benfefits [redhat.com] that Red Hat perceives that can be gained through taking their course and Microsofts [microsoft.com] idea of the benefits you get for its MCSE.

Its an interesting contrast of philosophys, Red Hat stresses its IT benefits, whereas Microsoft seems to stress the special offers that come free with the course.

Apparently you get a free badge with the Microsoft cereal, I think I know which one I'm going to be buying.

Sure, (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227217)

but only if I get one of those neato red hats.

This is great! (1)

cbuskirk (99904) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227221)

I worked as a network admin and then studied hard to get my CCNA. Right now it is almost worthless because of all the paperCCNAs out there who spent a week in a cert mill memorizing acronyms. Red Hat's approach, however is like Cisco's better program forces a student to take several classes over the course of a year not a week and we get people who may acctually be qualified. If we don't do it like this we will get Mom and Dad shelling out money to send their kid to (insert cert mill) for a few grand where they will leave with no skill.

No partial credit....??? (3, Interesting)

nuwayser (168008) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227229)

What's interesting to me is that if somebody fails the RHCE exam but gets all the RHCT portions of the RHCE exam correct, they still don't earn an RHCT. Red Hat hasn't quite figured this one out yet. I asked this question during one of RH's webcast presentations, and they said they didn't have plans at that time for implementing a "partial credit" solution.

Although I can see how in a given real-world scenario, one would expect an RHCE to perform a longer list of tasks in a given time frame (be they troubleshooting, installation, service configuration, etc.) than an RHCT, it still doesn't make sense to me why one wouldn't be able to walk away with at least the RHCT if they had performed well enough to have passed the RHCT exam. Instead, they would have to pay more to take the RHCT exam separately.

I'm not sure why this issue is important to me, except that I think it would be neat to earn the RHCE. I can't think of any other IT certs that employ any kind of partial credit system.

Mixed Blessing or Double-Edged Sword? (4, Interesting)

Shouichi (647465) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227242)

Well, there are two ways to look at this.

First, we can consider it to be a learning opportunity, which it isn't. It's an opportunity to be brainwashed and turned into a mindless employee. That is, of course, assuming it goes Microsoft's route.

But, we can see this as an opportunity to get a title that will help you get a job, where you can do some real learning. Way I see it, if you take the cert, get a job, and study a LOT, you can actually get somewhere. And by somewhere, I don't mean a trailer. I mean SOMEWHERE!

Of course, being the everything-hater I am, I have to say that the idea of an open-source cert is sort of weird. When I say weird, I mean extremely ugly. That's just a pet peeve of mine.

Red Ass Certified Technician (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5227257)

Good thing, now the clueless newbies will have a leg up on working with FreeBSD

Paper Certs (2, Insightful)

NTT (92764) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227264)

There was a time when being an MCP/MSCE *actually* was worthwhile. Before every fly-by-night tech education company realized they could make a buck off the courseware and flooded the market with paper-cert toting meta-geeks. I see this as a good thing. Anything that RH does to expand awareness of its products ultimately helps the whole OSS & FSF idealogies through a trickle down effect.

I doubt the costs would be low (1)

abe_is_fun (320753) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227278)

In the article they say:
Red Hat hasn't stated how much it would cost per student to run a course but, given that the schools and colleges can give students free copies of Linux, the cost is likely to be low.

But I don't think that the cost of the course will be really related to the cost of the software. That's like saying the cost of tuition at a college is directly related to the price of the textbooks. The real cost is paying smart, trained teachers who can push the information into students' heads.

High school Cisco certification (2, Interesting)

Burnsides_CS (633129) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227283)

My high school offered a two year course that would allow the students to get cisco certification. Unfortuanatly the instructor found a different job (better pay now that he had cisco certification, paid for by the school) after the first year, so we ended up with a dumbass history teacher that thought he was a computer genius for the second year.

Hopefully this will bring the cost down (1)

stefanlasiewski (63134) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227323)

I've been considering the RHCE (To get past the the HR People who think that it means something), but have been really turned off by the associated costs.

The RHCE is super expensive: $2500 for the "review classes" where you try to cram information into your poor brain over a 5 day period (You will lose 95% of this knowledge in less then a week), and then $700 for the tests.

I'm hoping that as RedHat expands these classes to other schools, the price of the review class may decrease, and other schedules may be offered. I'd be happy with 1-2 classes per week with 3-4 hou0rs per session for 5 weeks or so, much easier to remember that way.

We need certs... (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227331)

...if linux is going to make it in major corporations. It's a quick, easy way for lazy managers to determine employee performance. Just like linux needs office software optimised for making Lovely Documents containing data that could be easier read/manipulated in .txt files. There's a whole class of people who don't do any useful work beyond making sure the rest of us do, and as silly as it sounds Microsoft makes it easier for them to do this. To summarize: Managers like certs, managers authorize software purchases, we want Linux software purchased, so certs are good.

Better Be Better Than the MCSE Program... (3, Interesting)

ausoleil (322752) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227362)

...or it will be DOA.

The MCSE is an almost useless cert to go and get if you plan to work in a modern IT department. Due to Microsoft concetrating generating revenue from it's MCSE progrsam and not really worrying about creating truly knowledgable sysadmins the MCSE will get you a 30K job (or less) on a Helpdesk as a mouth-breathing card reader. Unfortunately, the cert mills and Microsoft itself sell this useless stack of papers as keys to the server room, where you will know better than the guys who have been staying up all night for years in there putting on security patches, hotfixes, service packs and upgrades that are wildly different from one another. It ain't so, sorry, thanks for playing.

Red Hat, on the other hand, has a chance to create some truly educated people in their cert program, and if they do, they will definitely be able to get their foot in more doors. But if they just create a bunch of wild-eyed know-it-all evangalizers (read: sales people) who just know how to spin up an install and then run the graphical version of Up2Date, then it will be as big a waste of time as Micro$ofts.

Of course, all IT groups are managed by MCSE's (Magazine Certified Stupid Engineers) who read the rags and think that it would be oh so easy to go and migrate from Progress to Oracle, AND implement SAP in a single evening of downtime!

Certs (4, Interesting)

NetJunkie (56134) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227387)

I'm a RHCE (2 years ago), MCSE (6 or 7 years ago), and a CCNP. The new MCSE exams are a good bit deeper than the earlier tests that were very easy. The RHCE is a good lab exam, but mainly focuses on supporting small Linux servers in a pretty rigid setup. It doesn't really cover managing a large Linux network, like some of the MCSE tests cover.

Is the RHCE worth it? It's a good cert and until it gets washed out, it has value. But don't worry, when it gets popular you'll see cheat sheets and answer books just like you do with the MCSE. The exam will always be based on the RedHat classes, which can be reduced down to only the facts needed.

I did not take any Red Hat classes when I took my exam...in fact, I was the only one out of 8 that didn't. I got a 98% on the exam while some of the people who took the training were taking it their 2nd time. I think those guys passed when I was there, but I wouldn't want them on my servers....

Needs a better name (4, Funny)

ScottForbes (528679) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227406)

I think they should call them Certified Linux / Unix Engineers. Who could resist the acronym?

Re:Needs a better name (1)

ausoleil (322752) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227437)

And if you went on a job interview, you'd know you were in trouble when the hiring manager looked at your resume and said "Hey, I see you are CL/UE - LESS!!!"

Attracting To Wrong Audience? (2, Interesting)

bluesoul88 (609555) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227451)

Perhaps it's just my current location (Kentucky) that has me thinking this, but when it's all said and done and you've got your shiny new Red Hat Certification, how many companies are going to know or even care about it's importance? Linux is growing more and more efficient, and, as such, being used by more and more companies. But it's still just a drop in the bucket. I'm sure there's many a company that hasn't heard of Red Hat (or Mandrake, SuSE, blah blah blah), or at least there was prior to IBMs pushing of it onto the airwaves. I suppose what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of companies blinded by the famous MCSE that this "newfangled RHCE" won't mean a jot to them.

Well Done Red Hat! (2, Interesting)

Eric Damron (553630) | more than 11 years ago | (#5227500)

One of the arguments people give me as to why they don't want to switch their shop over to Linux is because 'The learning curve is just too great.' They feel that they have too much time and money invested in learning Windows.

Making Linux training available cheaply gives Linux more credibility and at the same time removes one of the main reasons I've heard for not adopting it.

Well done Red Hat!

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