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Red Hat Announces Enterprise Linux

michael posted more than 11 years ago | from the aka-expensive-linux dept.

Red Hat Software 440

OldBen writes "RedHat has announced the product stable to replace the mainstream releases for enterprise use. RedHat Enterprise Linux AS replaces Advanced Server (with quite a price hike to go along), ES is targeted at "entry-level" servers, and WS is for workstations. See the details at RedHat's website."

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440 comments

And Announce this.. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505281)

First Post!

fp (-1, Offtopic)

CaptainMunchies (458558) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505282)

fp

numba one! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505285)

I'm numba frost pist!

Free? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505287)

Is it free too?

test post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505288)

just testing

FP FOR THE FRENCH! VIVE SADDAM, AMERICAN PUSSIES! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505289)

FFP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505290)

First First Post!

What's this? (3, Funny)

B3ryllium (571199) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505292)

The linux distro they run on Star Trek?

Does it include Majel Barrett-Rodenbery's voice?

Re:What's this? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505346)

No, just a photograph of her vagina.

Re:What's this? (0)

Hott of the World (537284) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505436)

This is Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Competition is irrelevant.
--
Screw posting anon, cause I care.

Re:What's this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505477)

HAHAHAHA! It's funny cuz Microsoft is like the Borg and they "assimilate" smaller companies and they're scary and stuff! You get two thumbs up from the REALLY REALLY FUCKING OLD JOKE CREW!

Red Hat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505526)

Red Hat, is that a brand of condoms?

Why do people continue to use red hat? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505294)

they piss about with it so much you can't use a stock kernel. they have files in the wrong place. they use a crappy packaging system.

and for all of this you just keep paying $$$$$.

Re:Why do people continue to use red hat? (2, Informative)

nenolod (546272) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505401)

And, you go around and troll.

RPM is actually a pretty good packaging system, and RPM-based distros are what will bring linux to the consumer, because the common idiot can run the system.

You _CAN_ use a stock kernel, and they offer many precompiled kernels that you can use. The files are in an acceptable location (i.e. configs are in /etc, so what do you mean there?)

Also, you can DOWNLOAD it, so you arent paying $$$$$. Anyhow, I prefer Debian/Gentoo, so dont call this a redhat plug.

If only there was a perfect operating system... (2, Funny)

Omega's Wildfire (603364) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505403)

Open source is great, but crappy source really does suck. Hey why don't you just run a Microsoft operati... Sorry my computer crashed. What was I say? Oh yeah, never mind.

Re:If only there was a perfect operating system... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505473)

Moron.

Re:If only there was a perfect operating system... (1)

Omega's Wildfire (603364) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505546)

Okay back up and running... would you care to expound upon your previous statment? One would begin to wonder if a two syllable word such as moron could also be able to describe the user of said word. hmm... nah it must just be me. :)

OK, I'll bite. (2, Insightful)

Dthoma (593797) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505507)

As far as I can tell, Red Hat does not have "files in the wrong place" any more than any other Linux distro - instructions for a lot of things intended for other distros are still very useful guidance for RH users like myself.

The packaging system may not automatically resolve dependencies, but it's bloody good as it is. I download an RPM, and use 'rpm -ivh' and I'm up and running 99.9% of the time. If I need some other RPMs, it'll tell me. If I need to su to root to install, it'll tell me. If it can't or shouldn't uninstall a package it'll tell me. Plus I can override it's warnings if I like.

If by stock kernel you mean the kernel that comes with the OS, then you are completely and utterly incorrect. If the kernel didn't work then why the heck would they ship this system? You can even download 'pure' kernels from if you like [kernel.org] . No one's stopping you, but the stock kernel is perfectly fine and recompilable as is!

And I'm not paying massive amounts of "$$$$$" for Red Hat either. RH 8.0 cost me only £35 (about $55), which is a whole heck of a lot cheaper than Windows 2000/XP. Heck, if you like, you can download the entire thing for very little or nothing.

Hmmm (-1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505295)

Free software sure costs a lot.

Re:Hmmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505322)

Do we really want to start the free as in beer/free as in speech explanation yet once over another time again de nouveau?

Re:Hmmm (1)

Twirlip of the Mists (615030) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505392)

Given that the question comes up so regularly, perhaps it's worth considering that the use of the word "free" to describe something that is neither unrestricted nor available at no cost might not be the best idea a person ever had.

NOOO!!!! EVIL!!!!! (1)

t0ny (590331) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505435)

Oh My Goodness.... Charging for an operating system. What is this world coming to?!?!?

My OS longs to be free!!!!

Windoze is $79.00 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505461)

I just bought a new computer, that's what the shop charges for WinXP. I opted for a naked drive and a homemade Slackware install.

Neato (4, Interesting)

blitzoid (618964) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505298)

Perhaps all these fancy titles with words like "Enterprise" in them will make large corporations see Linux as a solution for their projects. That's the main thing stopping linux... recognition.

Re:Neato (3, Interesting)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505333)

I've usually found the word 'Enterprise' in the title to be a sure indication of a crap product. It sounds so 1999.

Re:Neato (1, Funny)

B3ryllium (571199) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505376)

Now it reminds me of Rod Stewart. Eww.

Re:Neato (1)

vidnet (580068) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505604)

I think it sounds more like 2151 [prohosting.com]

Re:Neato (4, Interesting)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505408)

Wait, I thought what was stopping Linux was the lack of a proper email/calendaring/contacts solution (server and client side, nicely integrated) that actually works. Every IT director and their dog knows about Linux given all the business magazine press it's gotten over the past few years.

Re:Neato (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505418)

Silly me. I thought the main thing stopping Linux is the fact that is simply isn't as good as other operating systems. If you want a desktop OS, run Windows XP or Mac OS X because that's where the applications are. If you want a small server, run Windows 2000 Server or Mac OS X Server because it's easy to use. If you want a big server, run Solaris or AIX because Sun's and IBM's hardware is reliable.

There's simply no place in the mainstream for Linux.

Re:Neato (1)

ekephart (256467) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505439)

This may be true. Redhat or whatever other distro needs to start naming their software by the year. For instance, Redhat 2003 Enterprise is more recognizable to users and managers than Redhat 11.1 Enterprise or whatever. Using years and releasing updates or patches (like MS) gives people a sense of how "current" they are regardless of whether being "current" is functionally necessary.

Price Hike? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505301)

Does somebody actually pay money for Red Hat. I thought everybody downloaded for free from their web site.

Re:Price Hike? (2, Interesting)

-Surak- (31268) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505387)

Large companies buy it - it helps them get past the idea of using "free software". Other users buy it to get installation support, which is worth it if you've never touched *nix before.

Personally, I download the free version and subscribe systems I manage to the RHN service, which makes updates simple, and is well worth the $60/year.

apt-get is free (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505523)


to get the same thing as rhn for absolutely free
check out the apt-get for rpm package

http://apt-rpm.tuxfamily.org/

Re:Price Hike? (2, Informative)

FrostedWheat (172733) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505487)

Does somebody actually pay money for Red Hat. I thought everybody downloaded for free from their web site.

We do both!

Normally download the .0 or .1 releases, and buying the boxed .2 (normally stable) version. You get a lot more CD's with it plus a really handy 'survival CD' that contains some very useful tools if your having a non-boot day ;)

Oh, and my computer now has a nice "Powered by RedHat" sticker now! Worth the price alone!

I do! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505529)

I only had to pay £35 to get 7 bitchin' Red Hat stickers!

Why the cost? (0, Troll)

stephenry (648792) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505302)

I don't understand why companies are willing to splash out on such products whilst the software being sold is essentially free.

Maybe its the old theory: businesses think that they are getting a better product if it costs more than the alternatives. Hey, maybe thats why MS is doing so well!

Re:Why the cost? (1)

bmetzler (12546) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505358)

I don't understand why companies are willing to splash out on such products whilst the software being sold is essentially free.

You don't really believe that support is free, do you?

-Brent

Re:Why the cost? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505399)

really -- what does redhat do for support of enterprise?

tell you how to read the docs and get patches?

Re:Why the cost? (1)

stephenry (648792) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505468)

No, i just think that the cost of support with free software is less important than it is when using proprietary. In proprietary software, anything that makes the software work, or not work in the case of support, is hidden from the purchaser. They therefore depend on the supplier providing advice, which the purchaser cannot get elsewhere.

With free software on the other hand, all the source is freely available. The company would already have techs. available able to find out what has gone wrong -alternatively, usenet is always a goldmine.

Steve

Re:Why the cost? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505581)

You actually believe they have techs that can figure out how to fix the problems. Many techs are free software leeches that leech OSS stuff off the internet and give nothing back. They can not fix hte problems nor can they tweak the software to make it work for their environment. There are too many bad techs out there today.

Re:Why the cost? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505602)

usenet is always a goldmine.

Yup. I'll be mirroring RedHat AS patchsets on alt.binaries.warez.linux

Re:Why the cost? (2, Informative)

ShwAsasin (120187) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505375)

A company who purchases these expensive versions of Red Hat are getting support. When you download a distro off the net you don't get good support from the company. In a corporate world you can't dick around with things if a critical server is not running. It's better to have the support in the event something happens, then not have it at all...

Re:Why the cost? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505450)

It's better to have the support in the event something happens

Typical dot-gone style cover-your-ass thinking.

What exactly would redhat do if something happens to your production server? That's something that you need to have in house expert support to fix.

support from redhat won't make it work again, but you will be able to download the new version really fast to reinstall

Re:Why the cost? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505386)

it's because of the packaged support, just like all redhat products.

But--- (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505506)

If the stuff is as good as claimed, it shouldn't *need* any support. I thought this Linux stuff just ran forever. If it needs a bunch of support, why switch from Windoze? Hell, the in-house support guys would have to learn something new, and that's not real cost-effective.

Re:Why the cost? (5, Insightful)

1984 (56406) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505474)

The last 5%. Hell, perhaps even the last 1%.

Ever notice the difference in working with software that nearly works, and software that does work? It's a lot easier if you buy something that end-to-end works out of the box. Not remembering a lot of custom compile options, specific setup preferences. Pissing about in meetings deciding whether to use /usr/local/etc/ssh or /etc/ssh for SSH configs? And then making all those little tweaks work together. All that stuff costs staff time, which is really, really expensive, requires more knowledge management in house, and means you may or may not be in the mainstream -- and the closer you are to the mainstream, the easier it is to find cheap support.

And it's a familiar Linux environment for your admins.

(Of course, this all assumes that the new Red Hat stuff actually satisfies all that.)

Re:Why the cost? (1)

tremor_tj (656492) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505476)

You're actually paying for a year of support with the purchase of one of the Advanced Server (and derivative) products. As a matter of fact, prices have been lowered in the new pricing structure, but limitations have been placed on number of processors and amount of memory that may be used.

Re:Why the cost? (1)

ePhil_One (634771) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505531)

I don't understand why companies are willing to splash out on such products whilst the software being sold is essentially free.

Its all about the support. Even the "Pro" editions, which do include support, have only minimal support, you out of luck if you need to configure even included sodtware, such as INN.

With "Enterprise" edition, I assume you get support on a broader range of implemntations, as well as support beyond 30 days. I just wonder if their staff is up to it :^).

Just wondering.... (1)

johny_qst (623876) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505308)

I know its redhat but isn't this more public relations material than news for nerds? What's new to Advanced Server that good administration didn't give you before... anyone?

Corporate (1, Interesting)

jmays (450770) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505318)

Maybe THIS will convince my boss to move to Linux (RHWS) on our desktop systems.

Enterprise AS (3, Interesting)

Visaris (553352) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505337)

The price hike sounds entirely reasonable because of the increased support responsibilities involved. I'm actually kind of supprised they didn't raise the prices more.. Just my 2 cents.

Re:Enterprise AS (1)

xybe (525773) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505432)

The price hike sounds entirely reasonable because of the increased support responsibilities involved. I'm actually kind of supprised they didn't raise the prices more.. Just my 2 cents.

Mhhh not sure about how much support is included, look at these ADDITIONAL packages:

Additional Service Options Enhance your Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription with the following add-on subscription services and products: :: Developer Support Developer Support includes unlimited support for: * Hardware and software engineering companies developing on or porting to the Red Hat Enterprise Linux platform. * IT departments creating Red Hat Enterprise Linux production environments. :: Technical Account Management (TAM) Technical Account Management includes a dedicated team of senior Red Hat Engineers that provide in-depth understanding of your ongoing technology challenges, proactive issue resolution, and centralized management of your Red Hat Enterprise Linux support. Emergency 24x7 TAM service is available when purchased with a subscription to Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS Premium Edition. :: Red Hat Enterprise Network Red Hat Enterprise Network Service includes advanced features that enable simplified management of multiple systems. Large organizations can exercise even more control of their IT infrastructure with the addition of custom-built Red Hat Enterprise Network Proxy and Satellite Server systems. :: Stronghold Enterprise Stronghold Enterprise is the most mature, enterprise-class Apache-based web server available today. It features the tools to quickly install and configure the popular Apache Web Server, with the security features customers expect when they interact with your site.

Entry level supports 2 cpus only (0, Offtopic)

JohnZed (20191) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505343)

What about hyperthreading?

noobs (-1, Offtopic)

subk (551165) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505344)

pay no attention to the posts above.

Wrong incentive (0, Redundant)

drummerboy714 (632637) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505352)

Great! Now the higher price will make Microsoft think twice about making their product less expensive due to Linux competition!

Obviously not Free Enterprise (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505362)

Stick it to the Man, Red Hat! Just keep my downloads free.

Pricing themselves out of the market? (5, Insightful)

afidel (530433) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505367)

ES server is $800 ???? I know that most of that is for the support, but on the face of it that is a lot more expensive then MS server would be for a similar sized box (2000 server with 5 CAL's is considerably less). Of course once CAL's are calculated in it might be slightly cheaper, but large server software costs + large workstation costs($300) = too expensive. One of the big advantages of linux is the cost, if it is only going to save you a small % vs. windows I doubt many organizations will bother to switch.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (4, Informative)

dissy (172727) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505428)

> One of the big advantages of linux is the cost

But one of the big advantages of Windows is support.

Now in the linux camp you can get free and supportless, or pricy and supported.
In the windows camp you only have pricy and supported.

Two vs One is still a win for linux over windows at that game.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (0)

puddpunk (629383) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505563)

Linux is only free if you don't value your time. Personally, I make a hobby out of it, but Corporations have to think (and do think) what linux is going to cost them in resources, not just money.

When you said "Now in the linux camp you can get free and supportless", Thats not quite true, you can get support from people, it's just a lower level of support. The people that support you for free software normally write the stuff, so their sole pupose in life probably isn't helping people.

Most distro's do have support in the form of a mailing list, or a forum or a bug database or something, it just isn't as convienient as the Redhat "Call us and we make it all better" support desk.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (2, Insightful)

dr-suess-fan (210327) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505429)

The 800$ is only for the product, If you want support, that is 1500US/year for a 'silver' contract.

The product placement for AS is for Enterprise applications i.e. Oracle. For those of us considering moving Oracle from Sun to Redhat, this is a sweet deal.

Your comments about Microsoft pricing are valid, and I believe RedHat thinks so too. The new offering of ES, is I think 800$/yr for support.

And I don't work for RedHat. ;)

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (2, Insightful)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505438)

Remember too that with Linux you're not just getting the OS. You'll also get all of your office tools and apps you'll ever need for $800 too.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505533)

Not to mention you can take that $800 CD and install it on as many computers as you'd like.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (1)

warpSpeed (67927) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505544)

Remember too that with Linux you're not just getting the OS. You'll also get all of your office tools and apps you'll ever need for $800 too.

The source code too... that is where the real power is at.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (1)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505588)

Indeed, though finance guys don't really understand that. They understand that $800 for an OS/web server/mail clients/office clients/dsn server/mail server/kitchen sink is more cost effective than $100 for each with windows.

Re:Pricing themselves out of the market? (3, Informative)

Chewie (24912) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505530)

Um, last I checked, Win2K server (with 5 CALs) lists for $999, and you're not going to find it for $800 or less from many people (I am talking retail version, not academic or OEM, and this is the price point that RH's website is addressing: retail). Another poster has noted that there are also many server programs and utilities included that you would have to pay extra for with Windows. Finally, CIOs who don't know much don't like stuff that's dirt cheap. They seem to associate it with bad or unprofessional. Dumb, but true.

Tell me how... (1)

tarkin (34045) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505557)

...a price of $800 gonna price Redhat out of a market that is believed to replace the billion dollar UNIX market that SUN and IBM dominate ?
Even an unlimited license of Mac OS X Server is $999 ?
Al other UNIX operating systems cost a hell of a lot more don't they ?

Maybe you won't buy it because you only need the software and *not* the support and *not* the Redhat Network management tools, but those big iron buyers will want the same level of support of their previous purchases.

I just hope they'll continue to release community editions ala Redhat8...

Ok.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505372)

To try and cut of all you people who are going to keep making "witty" comments about the price hike, they aren't charging for the software per-say, they are charging for the technical support.

Clarification requested (5, Interesting)

m_evanchik (398143) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505373)

Are Red Hat Enterprise Edition versions protected by any licensing requirements?

What parts are not open-source?

What's to stop someone from just posting ISO images online?

I'm just a little fuzzy on what's being paid for.

Thanks in advance for the answers

Re:Clarification requested (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505464)

mostly it's the 5 years service and support that is being paid for from what I can figure out. Also the vendor certification program for hardware is probably part of why enterprises would pay in.

Re:Clarification requested (1, Interesting)

XaXXon (202882) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505512)

I'm just a little fuzzy on what's being paid for.

Support.

Slightly on another topic -- you could be really rude in something like this and intermix different pieces and parts that are GPL and are not GPL (at the package level) to make it virtually impossible to figure out how to redistribute only the GPL parts. In fact, you could even group the packages so each package has both GPL and non-GPL pieces, so you couldn't break it up by packages and distribute some of them.

That would be really rude.

Please explain how "free" can CO$T (1)

ArmorFiend (151674) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505380)

Please explain what their yearly subscription gets you? I don't understand what they're providing. Security updates? Doesn't that already happen in RH for free?

I can certainly understand paying them for tech support. We've all been there. :)

Walking a tightrope (4, Insightful)

TopShelf (92521) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505389)

Red Hat is attempting to both leverage the cost-advantage of Linux, but also offer enterprise-class service and support. This is an essential step for Linux to take off in the business arena, since no CIO is going to stake his career on a grassroots OS. He/She has to have a financially stable vendor that can be relied on to handle the R&D to provide regular upgrades, as well as provide emergency support as needed.

What price hike ?? (5, Informative)

dr-suess-fan (210327) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505391)

Sorry, But....

Our shop has been evaluating the purchase of AS for some time now. It's been 1500US/yr and 2500US/yr
for a few months at least.

This latest offering is only adding ES and WS for
those who still need/want support but don't want the
full enterprise price.

High availability clustering? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505397)

Over here: http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/features/

it talks about high-availability clustering. What software are they using?

Nice support options (5, Informative)

jarrod.smith (580058) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505414)

The top tier costs $2500 and you get one year of 24x7 support with a one-hour response time and unlimited incedents.

For a mission-critical business system (like one that MAKES REAL MONEY for a company) this is not a bad price to pay to keep running.

ALso, if you've only got one or two boxes like this, paying RedHat $2500 a year would be a lot cheaper than keeping a really good UNIX sysadmin around.

I think if you look at the competition (Microsoft and Commercial UNIX vendors), this would be pretty good deal.

Good but not great. (4, Insightful)

FatherOfONe (515801) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505424)

I am glad that they have made this change. We were kinda screwed when Oracle said that they would ONLY support the "Advanced Server" version of RedHat and RedHat said that they were only going to support 7.1 until the end of the year.

However, I cannot believe that they don't offer some type of per incident support basis. There are a number of places here in Indiana that want to add RedHat instead of NT and or NetWare, for say 20-30 servers, but they don't want to pay $2,500.00 a server for 7X24 support! Both Novell and Microsoft offer a per incident support, and when I called to complain about this I was told that RedHat isn't competing with Novell or Microsoft, but Sun. I don't see it that way.

Why it costs so much (3, Informative)

Hellraisr (305322) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505427)

It's because they're offering 5 years of service with the software, which is pretty good if you ask me.

Redhat Shell Game (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505430)

The simple fact is for Redhat to call one prodcut a "server" and another "work station" is misleading, because at the OS level it's still the same OS, and that's what matters.

The plain fact is when you get down the the OS level, all distros are the same...

Dont's be fooled by RedHat Markeing into paying for "enterprise bells" and whistles".

Completely cuts out the middle group of users (5, Insightful)

vondo (303621) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505433)

I understand why Redhat wants to try to collect money from its vast user base that uses RH to get actual work done, but there doesn't seem to be a reasonably priced option for non-power users.

For home/hobbiest users, there is the free downloadable Standard Linux. But, with at most 12 months of security updates, this isn't really a viable option for use in any environment outside the home (and not even for a lot of them). Personally, I want to use my computer, not be updating it all the time.

My situation at work is this: I'm a researcher. Since I'm one of just a few with any expertise, I'm the de facto sysadm for about 25-30 machines running RH 7.2 which we installed just about a year ago. We use the machines mostly as desktops. Lots of people don't run anything besides ssh, mozilla, and OpenOffice plus the usual suite of calculators, CD players, etc.

Since my real job isn't taking care of these machines, and since I don't want to interupt people's work, upgrading every 12 months is out of the question. But, spending $180/yr/machine on support I really don't need is also not a great option. All we need is security updates for these systems so we don't get hacked. That's it. I don't need Oracle certification, etc.

But, I don't see any way in RedHat's plan to give me minimal support for a long period of time (2-3 years) for a reasonable cost. Of course maybe their update RPMs will be available somewhere since, after all, this is free (open source) software. Barring that, it looks like RedHat will cost us a lot more than MS would.

I'm also of the opinion that this model of release every 4 months is not viable anymore. Things just aren't progressing that quickly any more. IMO, RedHat should be making a new release of their standard product every 18-24 months and releasing service packs that update critical packages like the kernel and X (to deal with hardware compatibility), security updates, and maybe essential applications like KDE, GNOME, mozilla. I'd be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount ($50/yr/machine) for something like this.

Re:Completely cuts out the middle group of users (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505515)

exactly.. my big beef I guess is the End Of Life being so short. What if I want to keep running RH7.3 for a while? What if I really can't get to that machine for an upgrade whenever I feel like?

I wish they would keep the RHN stuff for the old versions. They could just hike the price every year ($60, $80, $100, $120, etc) ...

Re:Completely cuts out the middle group of users (2, Insightful)

Yort (555166) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505601)

But, I don't see any way in RedHat's plan to give me minimal support for a long period of time (2-3 years) for a reasonable cost.

Ah, but that's the beauty of Open Source - you don't *need* RedHat to give you 2-3 years of support for reasonable cost. You can get that from someone else. If there are enough people like you out there to support a business model that satisfies your needs, then someone will probably start one (if there isn't one already).

Well, what should I get? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505434)

So, I have a bunch of small business clients who set up Red Hat web servers and pay the $60/yr Red Hat Network fee. We chose Red Hat because of the Red Hat network no-brainer upgrade system.

Now, looking at these choices, they are very expensive for a small business. Or to put it another way, not much better than Windows. And the workstation product apparently "doesn't come with server applications". Which to me means "compile it yourself". Which defeats the whole point of paying money for Free software.

I don't even know exactly *what* those prices include. Are they one-time expenses? Do they include updates and upgrades? For how long? How come I can download the Basic edition, but not the Standard edition (what's the diff?)

So what will I choose for these small business folks?

That's right, the correct answer is: screw Red Hat and install FreeBSD. At least you can upgrade over the network.

Re:Well, what should I get? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505586)

Dude, stick with what you've got. You are not an enterprise, you're a small business.

If your customers are cheapies, get them the SOHO solution, Red Hat Linux 8.0. If they want to pay for support, get em the $200-$400 version, "ES" I think.

Re:Well, what should I get? (1, Insightful)

dentar (6540) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505598)

The trick:

Pay for ONE SYSTEM to be on the red hat network. Tell up2date to keep the files it downloads. Write a script to grab all of those and install them on the rest of the machines too. (Assumes default install etc...)

Better yet, be a real geek and type ftp updates.redhat.com and then use get.

You're paying for.. (3, Interesting)

dentar (6540) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505442)

...that one hour response time and unlimited number of incidents and 24x7. For an enterprise level corporation, that's cheap. HP charges a lot more than that for their contracts.

I think it's a good move (3, Interesting)

Lank (19922) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505451)

Personally, I think charging more is a good move on Red Hat's part. When you give things away, people typically associate that with poor quality. When you charge $800, people start thinking about it in a different way, and probably start associating it with quality.

Good idea I guess, but I'll pass (1)

mao che minh (611166) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505466)

I would rather just install a downloaded free (free as in everything, essentially) images on workstations and just purchase a support contract. That beats paying $179 for a limited version of Redhat (what if you want Apache or some other "server software" on workstation for testing?).

Oh, The Horror! (1)

drummerboy714 (632637) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505479)

The making of a monopoly! I hope and pray that this Linus-and-his-blanket-type software that threatens my lovely Windows view can be stopped. I sure would hate to see what I might be forced into, if this costly software gets, say, 50% of the machines worldwide. Could we survive? Would we? I *shudder* at the possibility of a monopoly.

Still Too Much (2)

lal (29527) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505481)

I'm happy to pay for errata. $349 per server is too much for errata. I don't want any kind of support from RH other than errata.

I use RH now, and have for years. But I'm actively looking for another distro. Plus, I'm tired of the marketing b.s. that accompanies their segmentation of the market.

This is a serious question (2, Interesting)

ralphus (577885) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505489)

Can someone please explain to me why it makes sense to buy specific versions of redhat? What makes them different from just downloading the ISO's yourself and customizing via the install program?

Do they do heavy system modification to change how Advanced server handles memory or threads or something? Sorry, I'm ignorant here, I have always used redhat from the ISOs and pay for entitlement.

Re:This is a serious question (2, Informative)

ewilts (121990) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505561)

1.It's the support.

2. There are no binary ISOs

Red Hat does to lots of customizations, and if download the source rpms, you can look at the changelogs to see what they've done.

If you download the source rpms and build a system yourself, you'll have trouble getting patches for that system - in fact, they're not available at all via RHN unless you pay the subscription fee to the right channel.

TWENTY-NINE (3, Funny)

jms258 (569015) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505490)

the number of RHCEs at the red hat operations building pouring buckets of water over their web server to keep it from exploding from the brutal, merciless slashdotting it is now receiving. -jms258

Cheating? (2, Interesting)

buddha42 (539539) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505504)

What's going to stop me from buying "WS" for $300 and using it as a server? Will WS refuse to download certian RPMs from up2date or something?

Well, it just goes to show... (2, Funny)

somethingwicked (260651) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505518)

You can't put RedHat in the Enterprise, but you can put Enterprise in the RedHat.

No, wait, you CAN put RedHat in the Enterprise, but you-no wait...crap...nevermind

Why not use Apache for free? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505538)

Ok, mod me N00b, but why pay for something you can get for free, like Apache? How much support do you really need for a server, $800 seems like a lot of support, unless the software fucks up alot, in which it would need a lot of support.

Packaging (1)

LINM (255706) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505564)

$800 and it doesn't have apt-get. Broken RPMs? I'm sticking with Debian.

This isnt bad (2, Informative)

bludstone (103539) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505587)

I work for a company (that will go nameless) that offers 24/7, 1 hour callback tech support on the product.

No, its not redhat.

We charge over $20,000 for A SINGLE USER.

This is very _very_ competatively priced.

Red Hat can kiss my ass. Here's why: (-1)

The Trolling Troller (579075) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505596)

I had been running rh7.3 for about 8 months or so. this was in upgrade to rh 7.0 and later 7.1. I went out and purchased teh boxed version of 8.0 personal and took it home and installed it. I immediately re-installed 7.3. I was som completely dissapointed that I couldn't even open a terminal window from the desktop. Instead I'm left with this ckeap ass windows xp wannabe/kde ripoff desktop called BlueCurve? So any way, back to 7.3. Rebuild, update, etc.

Well, after some time of running 7.3 again I finally recieved a notice via email that my up2date service was about to run out. I coughed up the $50 to re-instate the service and continued with my updates etc.

Flash forward to this last Sunday. I'm setting up networking in the house. Simple setup. Hub, router, 4 computers, etc etc. I also picked up a new ATI 7000 video card.

I get networking all set up in three other windows machines and in the Linux machine.

Okay after testing to make sure every thing is fine, I move on to the video card installation. Easy. Two minutes and I'm booting back to Linux to configure. Here comes kudzu. Yep, discard and reconfigure new. Okay, on my way, reboot. can't bring up the fucking gui! So off to xf86config hell I go. I'm not a pro linux user in fact I'm quite novice by any tough guy linux zealot standards. I can do some shit on the command line but I am not a programmer. I don't necessarily want to be. I just know that I like to run good software, {when it wants to run}.

back and forth back and forth. no luck in rh 7.3 with the new radeon. So it's back to the voodoo 3. Well, som of a bitch, don't you know the only thing I can get the voodoo to do now is 1024 x 768. it was 1200 x 1024 before thsi whole bunch of crap happened.

SO I get curious. I grab my 8.0 disks again thainking that if I throw the radeon card in and opt for an upgrade that I can render properly and get back to where I should be with a new video card.

Okay so this works. Wait, god damned Blue Curve again. I want to change back to some normal 'smaker' setting like before or run 'blackbox' like I am so used to running. But Nnnnnnoooooooooo. Blue Curve is the default and that's what you get.

I just dropped $50 plus the cost of 8.0 so I figured, hey I've talked to redhat support before, they've been helpful over the phone, I'll call them and find out just how to get my old desktop back since I seem to have been sucked under this ugly ass bule curve crap and can't get out from it. Well, it seems that the hoops I jump through on the phone weren't enetrtaining enough for a techie at RH to give me the time of day other than telling me that I get email support only for the money I coughed up in the last week. Well, this screws me. No wait...this screws redhat, because now I really think you suck.

If you don't like it don't buy it (3, Insightful)

karearea (234997) | more than 11 years ago | (#5505603)

We hear/see a lot of comments about not wanting to pay the M$ tax when buying workstations.

I think the simple solution to people not wanting to pay the Redhat (damn where can I put the $) tax, is to not pay it - use another distro.

That's what's so great about linux, you don't like redhat don't use it, you don't like Slackware don't use it, you don't like Debian don't use it etc etc etc.

I thought the whole thing about OSS was choice, we just need to convince those brainwashed by Redhat (such as Oracle) that they should aim to support other distros, come up with a certification program so that people can build their own that is supported by Oracle.

Just my humble opinion.

Emerge this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5505613)

emerge your ass.
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