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Soldering with a Toaster Oven

CowboyNeal posted more than 11 years ago | from the easy-bake-electronics dept.

Links 252

nullset sent in a link to the Seattle Robotics Society about soldering in an unconventional way. Instead of the traditional soldering iron, Kenneth Maxon has successfully used a toaster oven to solder surface mount parts. The "magic ingredient" that facilitates this is a water-soluble solder paste. I wish I'd thought of this back when I had to solder one of those *ahem* aftermarket accessories to my playstation, since the whole process looks easier than trying to hold a soldering iron steady.

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252 comments

frosty pist (-1, Offtopic)

adhesiv (524101) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610086)

did i win?

YES! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610121)

You did it! Way to go, man! You get the love!

Ding! (4, Funny)

B3ryllium (571199) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610099)

Your motherboard has finished. Don't forget to ground it properly!

AND YOU CALL THAT FUNNY??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610447)

Dreamt I was an eskimo.. du duu duu boo bo. Wearing my boot around my toe. Stepping the ground below. It was a hundred degrees below zero. And my babe cried. Don't be an eskimo. Say your money don't go to the show. Well I turned around and I said wou ho! And the northern lights they shone. Bo Boo woo hoo! Right about that time people, a deathtrap who was strictly a commercial. Strictly commercial. Yellow yellow taxi behind my igloo. A man standing behind me with his snow shoes. Pick a boo, pick a boo! Let me rain with your snow shoes! He was the meanest eskimo any eskimo boy can be. The deadly yellow snow right from that husky flow... People from this area. The circular moment. It's a rabbit! It's a rabbit! Temporarily! Well a death trap stood there trying to figure out what to do with his itching eyes! If anything bad anything ever happens it's a tundra that's shouting! Temporarily! Temporarily! It was that precise moment when I remembered that ancient eskimo lore. If anyones name is Nanok the only way we can escape is to shoot a capsule out to the skies!

down (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610100)

already

Have you gone mad? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610102)

Are you guys high?

fffp (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610103)

first fuck-franco post!

fuck france! right in their giant collective national mangina!

fp (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610109)

fp

fuck the miguel de icaza troll

what's next? (1)

iosmart (624285) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610110)

haha...using microwaves to cure cancer?

Re:what's next? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610196)

Actually....

In an article of IEEE potentials, they inform us that they're switching to Microwave technologies to detect breast cancer. Using this technology has many benefits over X-ray including a more comfortable exam.

Re:what's next? (1)

Hack'n'Slash (3463) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610218)

I suppose it would be more comfortable; The microwaves would make the equipment feel warmer. :)

Re:what's next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610250)

Also, wimmins are comfortable around kitchen appliances, which give them a sense of purpose.

Re:what's next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610356)

Just place the affected body parts on a microwave safe plate, nuke on high for 3 minutes per pound then carve, serve and enjoy! Don't forget to rotate the plate unless you have a carousel!

Putting people out of business, eh? (0, Flamebait)

I Am The Owl (531076) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610113)

I wish I'd thought of this back when I had to solder one of those *ahem* aftermarket accessories to my playstation...

I hope you're happy, putting your local video game stores out of business, you thief.

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (1)

y0bhgu0d (168149) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610151)

local businesses lose no money, because they don't carry imports to begin with :p

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (2, Insightful)

I Am The Owl (531076) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610178)

Oh, yes, like anybody is under the illusion that the vast majority, or even a sizable minority, of modchips are used solely to play games written in languages that most American consumers don't even understand.

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (1)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610205)

thats all i use them for...i have to have some way to actively use my japanese otherwise i never seem to fit in the time to learn it

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (2, Informative)

jandrese (485) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610239)

Stop hanging out with pirates so you can appreciate the beauty of imports. Lots of games never make it over to the states, leaving little recourse but to import. One certainly doesn't need a translation for any Bemani game, or Fighting games, or even Sims for the most part. Plus there are tons of sites out on the web that provide translations for the more difficult parts.

I think you've allowed yourself to get caught up in the scene too much to even consider what people are doing with their stuff. I mean, why bother pirating a game when you can have a real copy in minutes with a trip down to your local store? And the real copy doesn't require any funky chips or discs to get working.

IMHO, Nintendo got this right with the GBA. The GBA has no region lock out, so there is basically no modchip industry for it. Granted there are still mods (The Afterburner is a nice kit that works great), but none of the "defeat lockout" variety. I don't know anybody who pirates GBA games (although I'm not really part of the Warez scene either).

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (1)

rifter (147452) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610227)

Maybe where you live. But in many parts of the country I have found game shops which sell imports. They also may sell mod eq, however.

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (1, Insightful)

intermodal (534361) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610153)

wanker

Acts of Gord (1)

rf0 (159958) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610161)

Prehaps its time to bring back that old favourite Acts of Gord [actsofgord.com] who really is a small game shop owner

Rus

Re:Acts of Gord (1)

Digital11 (152445) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610392)

omg.. i had almost forgotten about Gord... Thanks for reminding me, that site is awesome.

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610171)

Dunno what universe you live in, but 'round here (in the USA), the local video game stores SELL and INSTALL those *ahem* aftermarket accessories...

And I believe it hurts the renting outlets more than the selling outlets.

"Accessories" aren't just for piracy. (3, Informative)

CracktownHts (655507) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610302)

I don't know about nullset, but I have never used my "aftermarket accessory" (for Dreamcast) to play downloaded so-called backup games. I installed it because there are games out there that simply aren't sold in the US, and consequently can't be played on a US console.

Since installing the "accessory", I've bought maybe five or six import games from my local import game store. This import game store charges an arm and a leg for those rare games.

If not for my "accessory", I would be patronizing Software Etc. and similar chains.

I don't want to play Quake 2 on my Dreamcast; I want to play Guilty Gear X, or Shenmue II, or Capcom vs. SNK 2. To do that, you need to be a criminal.

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610309)

I gnU it!!! C0wb0yn34l is a \/\/4R3Z |>000|>!#$@!!!!!!@#@!

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (1)

Quixadhal (45024) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610347)

Well, if my local video store would carry import games and DVD's **AND** Sony would allow me to play/view them without a mod chip, I wouldn't need one, would I?

Region codes don't make any sense if the product isn't even available in other regions... duh!

Just because all YOU could think of was pirated games, doesn't mean that's all they're good for.

Grow up, stop suckling off the party-line and digest your own FUD.

Re:Putting people out of business, eh? (-1, Flamebait)

mrtroy (640746) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610357)

Ya, and because I stopped pimping I put your mom out of business.

And I am happy. She was a DIRTY whore.

I am happy to burn karma on this whiner.

Bread in Toast Out (1)

n3rd (111397) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610115)

Pentium motherboard in Pentium 4 motherboard out.

Seems simple enough, where can I buy one?

Toaster, the most extreme machine (2, Interesting)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610120)

What isnt a toaster good for?
(I regretfully ask)

Re:Toaster, the most extreme machine (1)

Cyberdyne (104305) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610172)

What isnt a toaster good for?
(I regretfully ask)

Well... mine seems to struggle with coffee - all those sparks and flashes can't be good. Marshmallows are tricky, too... ;-)

Re:Toaster, the most extreme machine (1)

Lev13than (581686) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610182)

What isnt a toaster good for?
(I regretfully ask)


A: Making Bread

Re:Toaster, the most extreme machine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610213)

Taking Baths:-P

Amour (0)

macguiguru (608453) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610411)

(shows some truly awesome burn scars)
c'est la guerre

FIGHT THRE POWER!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610122)

This is a DIE-IN!

EVERYBODY who doesn't support bush's imperialistaic policies and bloodlust for oil POST HERE and we'll clog teh article!!!!

DOWN with Bush and Blair, let the IRAQUI PEOPLE choose there government and if saddam is it then let it be!!!

WE WILL BE HEARED!

Re:FIGHT THRE POWER!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610146)

Lam0r.

No more cubing, eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610176)

I never knew raising something to the third power was about "bush's imperialistaic policies and bloodlust for oil".

Learn something new every day.

Been done (1)

Brandon30X (34344) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610126)

I have read about this on another web site before. Its not a new technique, I have even thought of trying it before, except I dont have a toaster oven.

-Brandon

Re:Been done (1)

Blaine Hilton (626259) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610140)

You could always ask a friend/relative/neigbor/cohert!

Re:Been done (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610276)

not only has it been done it has been done quite often... and I really enjoyed how the solder paste is described... considering it is used in smc soldering.... a special super-duper paste ... wasnt this posted on slashdot back in the '90s

Bake 30 Minutes at 350F (1)

Ken@WearableTech (107340) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610128)

I've never seen a toster overn big enough for a Playstation. I could just see someone putting the whole Playstation/XBOX in the oven which often defaults to 350F. 30 minutes later melted XBOX Pie

Re:Bake 30 Minutes at 350F (1)

Surak (18578) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610157)

Mmmmm..yummy gooey XBOX-ness... :)

powerbook anyone? (1)

SHEENmaster (581283) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610185)

here [mac.com] and here [slashdot.org]

RE: Bake 30 Minutes at 350F (4, Funny)

Destoo (530123) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610363)

Yes.. I can see the recipe.

Ingredients:
one graphic card
two memory stick
solder and paste to taste

1. little solder there
2. chip here and here.
3. a dash of flux there.
4. in the oven at 350 for 30 minutes.

DING!

OH NOT! That was 350F, not Celcius!!!

Anyone want a byte of my overmelted Board?
I call it "GeForce FX", the FX stands for "Flambee Xtra".

Console mods (1)

gilesjuk (604902) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610136)

Some already use solder paste when fitting mod chips to consoles. You can dip the wire into it and give it a quick blast of heat while pressing the wire against the connection point.

what do you mean unconventional? (4, Informative)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610137)

soldering in an unconventional way

sorry but industry has been doing the solderpaste->heated oven dance for years now.

it's unconventional to use a hand held iron unless you are doing board rework.

Re:what do you mean unconventional? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610190)

The indusry has beein using the solder wave bath for years and still does. Hand held iron is for hobby and prototyping work.

Re:what do you mean unconventional? (1)

Hayzeus (596826) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610275)

The indusry has beein using the solder wave bath for years and still does.

They do, but wave baths are used for non-smd production.

Re:what do you mean unconventional? (4, Interesting)

frohike (32045) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610361)

Yes, I agree. When I first came to my current day job back in about '98, they had a little toaster oven they used for the completion of SMT boards. I think now they just send the boards out to be produced and populated elsewhere (it's cheaper that way once you reach a certain point) but they were most definitely doing it for a long while before that.

How do you guys think Ball Grid Array packages are mounted on a board? :) These are the chips (like embedded PPC) that just have a big matrix of solder balls on the bottom which are soldered to the board.

Which reminds me of this humorous episode where a guy pulled down the oven from the shelf and cooked his lunch in it, not knowing what it was... and when we learned what had happened we all just about shit a brick. He didn't get lead poisoning or anything though.

FULL TEXT - ANTI WHORE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610142)

'Have you seen my new soldering Iron?'

Kenneth Maxon

Here some month's back I heard from a guy who knew a guy who knew how to solder surface mount parts using his toaster oven. Being quite a bit of a skeptic, a guy who knows a guy is a bit of a reach for me and I tossed the idea out as ridiculous.

Today I'm here to share with you, my own first hand experiences in using a toaster oven to put down fine pitch surface mount parts. I owe great thanks to Mark C. and his friend Dana O. who introduced me to the technology and to Jeff B and Jim C for helping work through the learning phase.

It is the intention of the author to present a pictorial documentation of the process with this article and hopefully pass along the Art. I hope that other members of the Seattle Robotics Society (and beyond) will pick up this skill and add it to their toolbox in dealing with board design and stuffing in the future.

The process starts with the use of a 'Magic Ingredient', a water-soluble solder paste. This 'Magic Ingredient' is available though DigiKey and is made by Kester Solders. Buying of the product in itself is interesting as it must be kept refrigerated and will only be delivered if ordered for overnight delivery. Since the material is water based it must be stored in a cold place (refrigerator) and only 'keeps' for a few months.

Starting with a clean board, the solder paste is applied from the syringe. The paste comes pre-loaded into a syringe however, the reader must order the plunger for the syringe and the applicator tips separately. I found it easiest to hold the syringe with my left hand depressing the plunger with my thumb, while slowly pulling the board along underneath with my right hand. My first try came, only after watching several successful tries by Mark who seemed to be a natural! The two photos below show the application of solder past to two different PCB's. One with a high-density fine pitch surface mount part and the other with 0.050" pitch surface mount parts.

When applying paste to 0.050" pitch (and above) boards, dab paste onto each individual pad Vs fine pitch where a bead of past is laid down across all the pads.

So, how much paste should the reader use for their board? As this is very much an art I'd suggest try it and see. The part can always be removed and re-applied. (More on that later) The following photograph shows the amount of solder paste used on the author's board. One step not shown is the first attempt to smoothly lay down a bead of paste which 'clumped' and 'gooped' all over the place. A damp paper towel from the kitchen quickly removed the mess and left the board clean and ready for a second try.

The next step in the process involves placing the parts. This is not as critical as it may seem. The reader can appreciate the surprise we went through when learning that in the re-flow process, the part will partially center itself over the pads on the PCB. This is due to the surface tension of each little bubble of solder under each of the 132 pins in our fine pitch part. Knowing this, the author still spent an extra few minutes making sure that the processor lined up exactly with the pads below it. The photos below depict the parts placement process. Notice the use of tweezers to place small surface mount parts, while fingers seemed the ultimate tool for the larger microprocessor parts.

The next picture shows the 'mess' left by all that solder paste squished between the hundreds of little surface mount pins.

Off to the oven with you! The next step in the process is to cook the boards. We used a toaster oven that the landlady of the author was kind enough to donate to the project. There is nothing special about this oven, a plain old proctor-silex from target will suffice for the job at hand. Looking to industry for answers, Mark tracked down a thermal profile used when infrared re-flow is done commercially. Matching closely with the author's own experiences in dealing with board stuffing houses we reached our own modified 'cooking' profile.

4 min. 200 deg. Warm up board and allow temperatures to equalize.
2 min. 325 deg. Bring temperature up to saturation.
30 sec + 450 deg. Temperature raised until solder melts and beads at individual pins, then held for 30 additional seconds.
Tap the oven before cool down...

The steps above are pretty self explanatory. There isn't any way through an article to share the excitement as the solder begins to 'pop up' into little beads around the individual pins. Small shiny silver beads appear starting from the back of the IC and moving slowly foreword. Once the solder has melted the oven is tapped a few times to help the IC to self-center over the pads. Care should be taken when doing this with smaller boards. The board in the second photo below fell between the rack rails when being 'tapped' shortly after the picture was taken and the process had to be started over.

A word of warning: As the solder paste warms up (during application to the board) it becomes soft. This allows the part to slide all over the board before finally being placed into the oven. Additionally, until the solder has cooled, the part can slide all over the board with melted solder all over it. We found it best to turn the oven off, open the door, and let to board sit until mostly cool before pulling it out so as to not risk destroying our masterpieces.

In a number of places it was necessary to clean up a few of the traces. The board used for this article had about 3 no-connect pins and four solder bridges. Bridges are located by eye inspection in front of a bright light. Unconnected pins are discovered by wiggling individual pins with an x-acto knife. On previous boards our group has had better luck including one board with only two disconnected pins and no solder bridges! Fixing misconnects is as simple as touching the pin with a hot iron as there is a perfectly formed solder ball right underneath it! Fixing bridges is a little harder and requires some fine mesh solder wick. The photo below shows the process of using solder wick to remove a bridge.

Finally, the photo's that follow show a number of close up shots of processors put down using this method by the group of roboticists that included the author. As is evident these are 68332 processors in 132 pin fine pitch packages.

They say that too many cooks spoil the meal, but at times we had four people crammed in looking through the front window of the oven, each with our own ideas and suggestions. Thanks for the help guys...

/.ed after 1 post - MIRROR (3, Informative)

heXXXen (566121) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610147)

Mirror here. [hexxxen.net] don't be surprised if all the images aren't on it yet...getting 900bytes/sec here folks.

Re:/.ed after 1 post - MIRROR (1)

br0ck (237309) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610206)

Images [fotopic.net]

Knife and Gas stove! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610148)

Hold a knife over the flame of a gas stove. That is how a real man solders! Well, don't solder anything other than a speaker connecter!

Re:Knife and Gas stove! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610396)

That's also how some substances are taken.

Heat the two knives, put the stuff in between, inhale.

but what do I know...

Solder Paste!? (2, Interesting)

SHEENmaster (581283) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610155)

First we had solid solder, cool. Then we had rosin-core solder for electronics, cooler. Then we had tabs of solder that could be melted with a lighter, lame. Now we have a toaster that can be used to solder, which is theoreticaly cool but realistically lame.

Wouldn't this paste have a higher resistance than the solder we know and love? Couln't a soldering iron be used to heat it with greater efficiency? Does it have any use outside of SMD?

Maybe I'm just weird, but I won't part with my soldering iron any time soon. SMD may be cool, but it doesn't have the "cobbled togethor" look of a traditionally etched and soldered circuit.

Re:Solder Paste!? (2, Informative)

Hayzeus (596826) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610202)

You're not weird, but sometimes you have no choice. Some chips just aren't available in DIP form, especially a lot of the kool robotics stuff like the ADXL acceleration sensors, a slew of microprocessors, and so on.

This page has actually been around for a while. It's seems a pretty good idea, though I've never tried it.

Re:Solder Paste!? (3, Insightful)

barawn (25691) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610333)

Wouldn't this paste have a higher resistance than the solder we know and love? Couln't a soldering iron be used to heat it with greater efficiency? Does it have any use outside of SMD?

No, it wouldn't have a higher resistance, at least not significantly more (or less). It's still just basically solder.

As for uses outside of SMD - no, not really. Traditional rosin-core, or whatever else floats your boat, is best for through-hole.

However, through hole is a pain in the butt. It's also impossible to use throughhole for more advanced circuits. Through-hole is a dying technology. It's terrible noise-performance wise, space wise, and in solderability. SMD is terrific - you just need to get used to it.

It also takes a fraction of the time to solder this way, and (done properly) reflow has the distinct advantage that an idiot can do it. The parts will simply wick to their proper locations. It's (mostly) foolproof. Plus (if you're careful) you won't damage components because you're not heating them with several-hundred-degree heat like a soldering iron does.

Re:Solder Paste!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610337)

Fine pitch SMD components are required when you want more power (as in Mhz) from a design since the dip packages only go to about 16mhz (depending on chip, in this case AVR).

Re:Solder Paste!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610346)

Every new electronic gizzmo is built using surface mount. And 99% of these are built using solder paste (applied by a screen printing machine usually) heated in an oven. Resistance isn't a problem. Unless you want a cell phone the size of a toaster, surface mount is the only way to go.

Finally! (0, Offtopic)

nullset (39850) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610159)

Finally, something I submit gets posted....after all these years and hundreds....err well 12 total submissions :)

--buddy

Our war is a war for sand! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610165)

I can't believe that so many so-called 'educated' people have deluded themselves into believing that the evil Republicans have dragged us into the war solely to steal SUV juice. That is, quite frankly, ridiculous and offensive in the worst possible way. It insults the intelligence of many. It is really very obvious what we are really going to "liberate" from Iraq.

We are going to go to Iraq for sand. I know that might sound a little revelatory, but if you think about it for more than a few seconds the reasons become obvious. Our civilization is so technologically advanced that we are completely reliant on microchips. And what are microchips made from? Any computer science major will be able to tell you that the fundamental element in the manufacture of microchips is silicon. Chips are very small, but when you are making and using billions of them a year then that amount of silicon adds up. And where are we going to get silicon? From sand, obviously. But we can't get sand from our own countries, can we?

If we did so then we would cause massive swathes of coastal erosion and a large ecological disaster. The tourist industry of the west and east coasts of North America and the south of the UK would be obliterated, stripped from the land in months, perhaps weeks!

It is obvious for all right thinking people to see that the only win-win solution to this problem is to take the sand from Iraq. We only have two possibilities: North Africa and the Middle East. Unfortunately, the North Africans don't have any nations which want us to invade them and is an oasis of peace compared to the Middle East. The Middle East is so unstable that no one will notice one more small invasion for something like sand. Besides, the Iraqis will benefit too. After we take away their sand their deserts will be gone, leaving behind a lush botanical paradise.

The evil Republicans would have you believe differently and that we must 'liberate' as much oil as we possibly can from this poor underpriveliged country. They only say this so they can run their miniature 18 wheelers, "sports utility vehicles" and lubricate their gun barrels. They have no justification for stealing oil from Iraq, when said country could use it itself to develop itself and become another benevolent world power. This is why the war must go on, but not for oil, as President Bush and his incompetent cronies would have you believe, but for a few trillion crystals of silicon dioxide. Thank you for your attention.

Hooray for surface tension! (2, Funny)

RalphBNumbers (655475) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610167)

I'm thinking that's what makes this work.

I wonder if this could be adapted for mass production? Not having to individually solder pins would have to speed things up. The error rate is a little high for production, but I'm sure it could be improved with a little engineering.

Re:Hooray for surface tension! (2, Informative)

Hayzeus (596826) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610238)

Uh -- basically this is how SMT soldering is done in the industry.

Well, ok, they don't use toaster ovens...

You're probably trolling, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610286)

This process is basically how many printed circuits are made in industry. Do a Google search for "reflow soldering".

The trick is temperature control. Heated air and Infrared heaters are often used

Re:Hooray for surface tension! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610310)

Hmmmm, you might be able to use this technique in a production environment -- you would probably want to use some robotic handling equipment to load the bare boards on a conveyor belt, then apply the solder paste with a stencil to avoid solder bridges. While you're at it, you might as well build some robotic parts placement device (maybe call it something catchy like "pick and place"). If you really wanted to get extreme, you could use a computer controlled oven so you could pre-program the temperature profile or tune it for a specific board design and then use some sort of statistical process control to fine tune everything to get those yields up to where you want them.......

Re:Hooray for surface tension! (1)

Hayzeus (596826) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610323)

If you really wanted to get extreme, you could use a computer controlled oven so you could pre-program the temperature profile or tune it for a specific board design and then use some sort of statistical process control to fine tune everything to get those yields up to where you want them.......

No, no. That's insane. It would never work, never.

Re:Hooray for surface tension! (1)

mabhatter654 (561290) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610438)

Many Pins use a toy called a Wave Solder Machine!


1500lbs of 500 deg F liquid Pb-Sn solder....Ummm!


The board skims accross a Flux spray first then rides the Wave which solders the pins! You can even glue small passives [caps and rest] to the bottom and do them too!

Way to fry components. (1)

Jason1729 (561790) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610169)

Isn't this the same place we read about the person who put his PDA in the oven to dry it?

Solder melts at around 350 degrees, the maximum storage temperature for ICs is around 140 degrees F, and 200 for mil spec chips. Heating the whole board and components to 350 for long enough for the solder to melt will destroy the chips.

Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]

Re:Way to fry components. (4, Informative)

nullset (39850) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610192)

Read the "cooking" times mentioned on the page....the magic is in the solder paste that melts much more quickly than standard solder.... simply sticking a board into a toaster oven with normal solder definitely WOULD NOT work :)

--buddy

Re:Way to fry components. (0)

mrclmn (590405) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610273)

Technicaly, wouldn't that be BAKING components?

Re:Way to fry components. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610307)

Max storage temps are usually 150 deg C not F. Heck max operating junction temps are usually 100 deg C (212 deg F) or more.

Re:Way to fry components. (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610317)

Solder melts at around 350 degrees, the maximum storage temperature for ICs is around 140 degrees F, and 200 for mil spec chips. Heating the whole board and components to 350 for long enough for the solder to melt will destroy the chips.

Wow you know absolutely nothing about electronics.

everything you own that has surface mount electronics in it has gone through this process. Either Via an Oven or using superheated air or finally Infared light for heat. (Yes, I have used an IR rework station to get a BGA chip off of a board WITHOUT destroying it.)

Things have changed cince 1982, I suggest you read up on several electronics manufacturing trade magazines and learn how board are getting made. hell back in the 80's they had Wave soldering basically floating the board on a pool of liquid solder.

AMD? (1)

Valiss (463641) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610177)

So does this mean that if I use this process for my MB and put a notoriously hot AMD chip in it, it'll re-melt the paste?

"No, seriously guys, my computer is bleeding to death."

Mirror please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610186)

already /.'ed

It's getting slashdotted... (1)

mijok (603178) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610195)

I wonder if he's trying to solder with his server now...

What's in that solder? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610203)

Do you plan on using that oven for food later?

How about having kids with only two eyes?

Not so unconventionnal (2, Informative)

_Eric (25017) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610210)

Well, soldering in hovens is by no means an unconventional way. Nowdays components are in BGA packages (ball grid arrays), which are matrices of solder balls under the package (see image [mrsscrap.com] ). Those baybies can be soldered ONLY in an hoven. Same goes to the chipset of the motherboard of the computer you're using right now, unless it's a rather old one. So those guys apply the indutry standard to an amateur project. You can note that the things they solder could also be soldered with a soldering iron. Soldering a BGA that way can be more problematic, but that would kick ass! (usually BGA comes with multi-layer printed circuit board (PCB), so you wouldn't be able to go outside the professional circuit anyway).

Toast-R-Oven (1)

grimsweep (578372) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610211)

I can testify to the effective heating properties of a toster oven. On a particular night, I had placed some rather innocent Mia-Rosa (sp?) tortilla chips in the oven for a warm snack. Leaving the kitchen momentarily, I joked around with my roommate until we noticed an odd smell.

We returned to the kitchen to find the heating element was an unwholesome shade of orange, and the chips were already black.

An oven mit, a concrete floor, and half a box of baking soda later, the flames were extenguished.

Re:Toast-R-Oven (1)

mrtroy (640746) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610407)

Impressive.
You know, I never really knew ovens warmed stuff up. I always heard they were used in WW II and were really a bad thing.

But, theres never a better way to figure something out then to start it going, and leave, and come back after its done to clean up the mess

(Realizing the humour of your comment I give you props)
Personally I use Tostitos brand.

google cache link (1)

k3v0 (592611) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610229)

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:okXVGJjYnsAC: www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.ht m+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 i know this is redundant but even the cache was slow to load, so here it is

Slashdot is Slashdotted (0)

shazbotus (623281) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610263)

Forget this guy's server being slashdotted, I am having major problems surfing around Slashdot itself *gasp* Anybody else having similar problems (internal server errors appear)? Sorry about being a bit off topic, but its worrying me. It seems to be ok for right now, but it also happened yesterday...I couldnt access the main page.

Re:Slashdot is Slashdotted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610364)

get used to it, Slashdot is run by a bunch of clowns [geocities.com]

Re:Slashdot is Slashdotted (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610426)

Yup. I had a nice page about a 10000 reward for Beenies, whatever that is..

all articles posted by taco and cie on jan 28th or something..
(fake ones, of course)

and a few "page cannot be displayed" too.

Slashdot is definitely being slashdotted.

Not a new article. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610265)

Seattle Robotics has had information on using toaster ovens for SMT soldering for quite some time. I recall viewing their info more than a year ago.

Possibly.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610277)

Possibly the best thing since sliced bread?

alternate use for magnifying glass or laser pen? (4, Interesting)

Tekmage (17375) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610293)

Why burn ants when you can put that magnifying glass to good use soldering circuits together in the summer sun? ;-)

Seriously though, wouldn't it be cool if someone modified a laser-pen (or appropriately set up fibre-optic light source) to serve as a soldering iron?

No more fumbling with hot-metal iron pens. Shutter the light and it's cold!

Re:alternate use for magnifying glass or laser pen (1)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610385)

This was discuessed on piclist shortly after oven soldering came up. The conclusion was you would need a laser that costs many thousands of dollars to get the wattage necessary to solder with.

me love you long time (0, Offtopic)

riqnevala (624343) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610298)

Talking about Iron Chef by FujiTV?


When in doubt, mod as "interesting..."

So what... (1)

divide overflow (599608) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610305)

Instead of the traditional soldering iron, Kenneth Maxon has successfully used a toaster oven to solder surface mount parts.

We.., *I* can solder SMPs with a *blow drier*. Ergo, I rule.

Re:So what... (1)

divide overflow (599608) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610366)

We.., *I* can solder SMPs with a *blow drier*. Ergo, I rule.

Hmmm...the period key seems to have climbed up my keyboard. Make that "Well" instead of "We.." It looks like I will need to *seriously menace* that troublesome key with the blow drier until it descends.

Re:So what... (1)

CoolCash (528004) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610424)

Well, that's not far from the truth. I have done some surface mount repair and we used hot air guns to heat the solder. I would never use a soldering iron to do that, it's next to impossible to heat all those pins with an iron.

The henderson's family dinner (2, Funny)

MoeMoe (659154) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610316)

Mom: Kids, dinner's ready! Kids: Oh boy mom! Whatcha got cookin in the oven? Mom: You're favorite... home made, roasted to perfection Intel chips (Pentiyumms?)

2 gnd'd tip weller soldering irons (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610322)

Is all I need to solder SMD's.

And if their toaster oven breaks... (2, Funny)

MarvinMouse (323641) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610331)

They can just put their site on slashdot, and let their overheated server sauter for them.

"Toaster" Oven Stories (1)

rhkaloge (208983) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610378)

This reminds me of the possibly hypocriphal story about a chip maker that noticed the contamination rate on their chips seemed to spike once a week, usually on monday. It wasn't until an engineer stopped in on a weekend and discovered that the cleaning crew was using the oven they baked the silicon wafers in to cook pizza. The fact that they didn't discover this cause there were no engineers in on the weekend makes me think it might be made up, but repeat anything enough and it becomes true!

Womans Work (1)

ifreakshow (613584) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610379)

Now my girlfriend can finally cook me something I will like ...

... If I had a girlfriend! Thanks for reminding me how big of a nerd I am.

Yum!... (1)

Anne_Nonymous (313852) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610380)

Lead sintered pop-tarts. (I hope this toster isn't used for food henceforth)

Surface-Mount Soldering Techniques (from a pro) (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610398)

I have to confess I'm amazed to see someone use something as commonplace as a toaster oven to do the work of >$60,000 reflow ovens ;-) I'm an engineer in charge of a surface mount line, and there are a few interesting issues to consider when trying such techniques, the biggest of which is "ramp and soak" which in a nutshell is how hot a component gets over a given amount of time. When soldering SMT components, it is imperative that a component recieves no more than 2 degrees C (about 3 degrees F) a second ramp-up in temperature. This is to prevent thermal shock and damage to the components. It is OK for a component to be exposed to soldering temperatures, ideally for as little as possible; a few seconds. When you solder a component in an oven the way this article describes, you run a risk of damaging sensitive components. Passive components like SMT resistors, coils, and simple IC's like logic gates generally take the punishment a lot better than film capacitors, PROM's, etc. Of course, just for foolin' around in the garage, the toaster oven method should be ok, likely you'll not fry the component if you don't leave it in there longer than you have to.

SMT reflow ovens, essentially, are identical to the ovens used in Pizza Hut where they stick a pizza in one end and it is taken through heating zones via a conveyor and pops out the other side done. In SMT reflow, the zones are controlled in such a manner that the holy 2 degrees C rule is never broken. (I used to joke that on the day I get fired, I was going to stick a frozen pizza in our reflow oven just to see what'd happen.)

My method of soldering IC's to a board is simple and IPC approved: Place the IC on the pads; center it up as well as you can. Using a regular soldering iron, "tack" two opposing corners of the IC to the lands with conventional solder. Don't worry about bridging. Then, apply a small amount of liquid solder flux to one side of the IC, bathing the legs. Then, apply a small bead of solder to the end of you iron and GENTLY wipe this bead across all the legs, from pin one to pin whatever. (Yes, it's counter-intuitative,) and you'll see as if by magic that you'll get very few solder bridges. Apply more flux if required. Clean tip of iron completely of solder, and just touch it to solder bridges. The excess solder will "sweat" to the iron. Clean iron tip again and repeat. When done, clean flux with laquer thinner or similar substance. (If you use no-clean flux, you could just be gross and leave it there if you wished, removing excess with a paper towel.) I find that a simple toothbrush dipped in thinner does wonders.

Or, you can stick stuff in your wife's toaster and take chances that way ;-)

Take care now ~!

Grand si cela fonctionne vraiment! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#5610425)

Intéresser... Je souhaite également que j'aie eu un four de grille-pain pour modifier mon PlayStation. Soutenez quand j'a essayé ceci, j'ai fini vers le haut de détruire quelque chose sur la carte mère. J'ai dû acheter un nouveau PlayStation. Plus tard j'ai trouvé un dispositif qui a branché au dos de l'unité et a fonctionné aussi bien.

I've know this for somr time. (1)

dangerweasel (576874) | more than 11 years ago | (#5610437)

I've soldered toast to mine multiple times.
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